How Much of the Old Law Are We Supposed to Follow?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome in to Think Deeper, presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilkie with you with Will Harab and my brother Joe Wilkie. Once again this week we are talking about a growing a movement you guys might have heard of, might not have. But if in either case, this is something I don't know, I started encountering it a year or so ago. I know it's been brewing longer than that, and I'm encountering it more and more and more all the time. And so I think it's something we need to address. But it also has really interesting implications for us as Christians. Questions that I don't think we spend enough time talking about, and that is what to do with the old law. We're observing and being contacted by people involved in what some call the Hebrew roots movement, some call Torah observant Christianity, others call very similarly related Messianic Judaism. So multiple facets, very all closely related or the same thing in some ways, but mainly about what the Christians are supposed to do with the law. And I think we got here because Christians don't always know what to do with the law. And so there's been a bit of an overcorrection, as we like to talk about. So before we really get into the meat of it, there's any opening remarks from you guys. [00:01:21] Speaker B: I mean, it's, as you said, we're seeing this a lot more and it pops up in weird ways. It pops up. You started seeing people use Yeshua, you know, instead of Jesus, they'd use Yeshua and they, they'd start kind of dropping some interesting words, you know, using a lot more of the Hebrew, talking about the Sabbath or Sabayath, you know, and, and so you started Sabbat. There you go. And you started seeing like some of this on social media. And you're going, man, what is this about? And then you look in the broader realm of Christianity and yeah, I mean, you're right. Like, there seems to be a growing movement toward using the Jewish terminology, going back to the old law, using some of those things, really bringing that forward, even if it's just some of the feast days type of thing, like, well, we're going to celebrate this, you know, we're going to celebrate Passover or what, whatnot. I started seeing some friends and people on Facebook doing that. And that got us intrigued. And so we've been following the trend, as you said, Jack, for a long time. And that's what's the light of this episode. We've had this episode down for the, the concept of this episode down for a little while now, just waiting for the right time. We did some research on this. There are, you know, we're going to get into the difference between Messianic Jews versus, you know, the Hebrew roots movement. I mean, I think there are some differences in there, but they're all kind of driving us back toward the Old Law. And there's some danger in this that I think needs to be discussed. Will. [00:02:46] Speaker C: Well, Jack, you used the word overcorrection. And I think it's appropriate because my mind went to, okay, well, what are we overcorrected from? And I'll speak for, you know, the Church of Christ perspective. I always hate using the phrase, but, like, the average, you know, Christian, the average Church of Christ member, what do we know about the Old Law? And the answer is there's typically, and I don't want to speak for every congregation, but there's typically not a lot of knowledge surrounding the Old Law. It's very much kind of brushed aside, like, okay, well, that's Old Testament. You know, we're not under that anymore. And almost. Almost neglected is the word that I would use. And, and so I feel like for those of us who grew up in the Church of Christ, our knowledge level on it is just not very high. And so when something like this comes along of, you know, people who are, again, more Torah observant or like, kind of going back to it more, even somebody like myself who, again, has grown up in the church my whole life, it's kind of like, oh, wow, there's, you know, there's more to it here than, than what we originally think. And I think for most people, again, just kind of the, and I hate to use this word, but like, ignorance. There's just an ignorance surrounding, you know, what is the purpose of the Old Law and why. Why the Old Law is important and just general knowledge surrounding it that I think does lead to a lot of raised eyebrows at this kind of thing. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward. I'm going to be learning quite a bit from you guys on this episode because I know you guys have dealt with, shall we say, more interacted with more people regarding this than I have. And so, but yeah, I just wanted to speak to that idea of, like, I. I would imagine the average listener to this, if you're not super plugged into some of these online movements, is. Is just not quite as familiar with the Old Laws. Maybe we should be, because I know I sat through your guys's Leviticus and Numbers class. That was the first Leviticus and numbers class I'd ever sat through in my 24 years of being a Christian. So, yeah, I think just general knowledge and awareness is good to improve here. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm real big on that. We don't spend enough time in the Old Testament, but even as the time we do spend in the Old Testament, it's not with the law. I mean, it's almost never with the law. There's always the jokes about Bible reading, plans go to Leviticus to die and things like that. And yes, it can be pretty dry, but so what do we do with all that? I mean, it's just, well, as you said, well, that doesn't really count anymore. I mean, that's okay, but it's there, it's inspired. And so what do we do with it? And so, you know, when you see Torah, observant Torah, for those who don't know, just means the law, that's what they're talking about, is bringing back the Mosaic Law. Let's talk a little bit about where it starts. I think there's a couple of things I'll talk, speak to the deeper Bible knowledge. Desire is a. I want to know more about the law. But Bible, the Jewish reading of scripture and the way Hebrew narrative works, the way Hebrew scripture works is very complex. It's way deeper than sometimes we think when we get into the proof texting, just kind of jumping around and grabbing a verse here and there. No, it's incredibly heavy stuff. I mean, there's layers on layers on layers in the Old Testament. And so when, let's say you hear a podcast or you come across an article or whatever of somebody breaking this down, you think, I need to learn from them. And the rabbinical teachings, the rabbis always have all this. This color to add to stuff because they have the. The Hebrew mindset, the. The Jewish reading that we don't really come to it that way. We think stories are pretty straightforward, but there's more to it. And so when people see that, they think, well, if I really want to understand the Old Testament, understand the Old Law better, I'll go learn it from a rabbi. Because they've got all these insights. Well, they do have the insights. You got to be careful not to spit out the bones. They are notorious for making a lot of stuff up, so you got to be careful with that. But the other side of it is just. Just because they understand that you have to work backwards from Christ into the Law. That's where you need to understand things better. And I think the search for more knowledge is good, but it gets dangerous if you're not careful. [00:06:42] Speaker C: It's one of those things just real fast. Joe, you hear somebody maybe in the denominational world break down a text better than you've ever heard anybody else break it down before. And you look at go, wow, man, they must really know their stuff. And, you know, start. And maybe not even the domination one, like, whoever. There is just the tendency for. If you hear something in a way about God's Word in a way that you've never heard it before, again, the kind of. The deeper knowledge there, you know, and I think that's a positive thing for us Christians is to kind of yearn for that and look for that. The problem is, she said, with some of these rabbis, it can be completely fabricated. But, you know, that is. That is something that I think is a lure for people like, oh, wow, that, that's. I didn't know that. And not a lot of people know that. That must be. That's fascinating and kind of dive down the rabbit hole a bit. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, they do view things from a different point of view. We all know from the Eastern and Western views. You know, you can look at it and ours kind of coming from the Martin Luther German, like, very analytical in the way that we view the text. And they're more, you know, they understand story and theme and things like that maybe better than we do. And so, yes, they are going to view things differently. They're going to view the Old Testament differently. And there will be some things they know that we don't, just based off of, you know, their studies of that. On the other hand, I think, Jack, your point is very valid and very valuable that we have to be very careful when we're dealing with somebody like that. Do they accept Christ? So, like, Dennis Prager is. Is a Jew, and so he does not accept Christ is Lord. That's going to skew your theology and your understanding of the Old Law quite a bit. As we get into. As we're going to get into here in a bit, you know, the Matthew 5 passage and, and the idea of the law being fulfilled and what that actually means. If you don't think that Jesus fulfilled the law, who's it pointing to and what's it pointing to? Well, that's going to massively skew your understanding of the Old Testament. That's why we have to be very careful when we are engaging with this. So then you say, okay, what about the Messianic Jews? And that's more what this podcast is about. What about the Messianic Jews? What about the, again, the Torah? Observant Christians, those that really want to go back, they want to blend. They have Christ as, as the foundational piece, but now they want to bring the law in. And I think they're also fundamentally misunderstanding the work of Christ and Galatians and Hebrews and you know, a lot of Paul's writings and things like that. So once again, they may have some knowledge that is pretty interesting. They may see things from a different point of view, but. Okay, that's okay. But does it align and mesh with what we know in the New Testament? And that's not to say that the Old Testament has no value. It has a lot of value, which is explicitly what Galatians talks about. Like it's a tutor. It's, it's, you know, it was there for a time and we can learn from it, but that's where we have to be really careful because the secret knowledge comes in and it's really enticing. People study the Bible. Like I've never heard that before. Check it, fact check it. Because there are, as you guys said, like just a simple Google search. Wow, that doesn't, I've never even heard that before. Most concepts you've probably had, you probably have heard something about it. So if you're getting something off the wall that's like, I have never heard that before in my life, just Google it. You know, just, just see if it's in the realm of Christendom that this is being discussed. Because some of the stuff is fabricated, just to be quite honest with you. So got to be careful. Take some of these things with a grain of salt, especially when you're dealing with the, the rabbinical teachings and such. [00:10:03] Speaker A: It's funny that usually every time somebody thinks, wow, I found something new in the Bible, almost without fail, it is one of the earliest, oldest heresies. Like that's, they. It always feels like something new, always feels like you're breaking ground and that's where it ends up. But again, there is deeper Bible knowledge there and so people go for it. I think there's also a bit of the, the mystic, the spiritual and, and we under spiritualize things so much in the world around us and they, they take it seriously. And so people are drawn to that. People are looking for something like that. The idea of you just want roots, you want depth in your church. That's why you see people going Catholic and Orthodox and Anglican and things like that. There's the external trappings to it and the historical roots and things like that. And so this offers people that as well. This goes all the way back to Moses and Sinai. And so there's a real appeal to that. I get that. But that doesn't mean we have to be people who are observing the law. But as a kid, one of the principles I was always taught was everything that's repeated in the New Testament, we carry forth to repeat it as a command. I think that generally works. But you can get us some specifics. [00:11:19] Speaker C: Where maybe it's a littleistic way to look at it. Can you bind it way to look at it. [00:11:26] Speaker A: And in that it can also come back to, and this is our new law. And then it's like, well, kind of sort of not. I mean that's, there's a, it gets a little sticky there. But again, that question of what do we do with the law. A lot of times it's, well, we'll take nine out of the ten Commandments. And so I saw one of these Torah observant people saying, see, all Christians are Torah observant because you all agree with nine of these law, like, come on, don't play the definitions, you know, swapping game and that kind of thing. But we see value in the old law. But there is always a cutoff point. There's always a point at which we stop, I think to open with and we're going to steal man their arguments and all that. But this is one of the things I think you can use in rebutting this is they have a cutoff point too. Everybody has a cutoff point. Everybody stops observing the Torah, the law at some point. They don't sacrifice at the temple, they don't do certain of the cleansings. There's things that they just don't do and there's things that we just don't do. It's just kind of where's your cutoff point? And so if they're going to say that makes us Torah observing Christians, I would say no, actually it makes you non Torah observant, you know, like so, but, but the main thing why this is such an error, such a heresy is the idea that the Christians now have to, now that you've been baptized into Christ and you don't have to keep it perfectly now go back and take it again and try and do it the best you can and the grace will cover you. That's their idea of the law. And so don't, don't move past the law. Don't move past taking the Sabbath off. Don't move past getting rid of bringing pork back in. Don't like, don't. The food, cleanliness, things like that, keeping kosher, as they call it, they go back into that. And so, yeah, there's a lot swirling around this, but those are really the main things when people say Torah, observe. And it's those things. It's the externals, the food, the Sabbath, things like that. So. [00:13:17] Speaker C: Is there, this is just a question for you guys. Is there variation among like the, the tour. Observant Christians, like Jack, you mentioned the, the line like none of them are out there sacrificing or going to the temple, obviously, or stuff like that? Is there variation even? Like, are all of them, you know, staying away from pork? Are all of them observing the Sabbath or is, is there still, is there within the Torah, observant Christians, some diversity as far as which things that they, they still cling to and adhere to. [00:13:45] Speaker A: That you've observed classically? I mean, like, every, every religious group does this at some point. There, as I was reading, there are, among the Messianic Jews, there's like the strict ones and the more lax ones and so on. Things like, I think it was circumcision and the laws of like, menstrual cleanliness and things like that that the Leviticus gets into. You know, the ones that are just really by the book and the ones that are like, okay, we can kind of slide on some of that. So there is variation. And so it's, it's going to be small degrees of variation. Generally speaking, we're in the same neighborhood. But yeah, they're. They're not, they're not a monolith. I guess I would say one thing. [00:14:25] Speaker C: One thing I was going to ask you guys just real fast before we get to the Steelman portion, because we've got on here, like, Christians have not always handled the Old, the Old Testament and specifically the law very well at all. And this kind of goes to the point that I was bringing up to in my opening remarks to start the episode. I do think a lot of this, honestly, and we're not going to get into this, but I think it stems from the instrumental music debate is because we grow up hearing, you know, for, again, for us Church of Christ people who are, you know, don't believe we should be using instruments in worship. As soon as somebody brings up the instruments that were in the Old Testament, what has been drilled into our head that needs to be of the rebuttal to that? Oh, well, that's Old Testament, you know, like those four words. Well, that's Old Testament. And I think again, for somebody like me, that's always been just kind of drilled into my head of like, well, that needs to be our response. And so it does lead to a. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, again, just a neglect of the Old Testament and kind of a devalue. Devaluing of the Old Testament. But I was just, as I was sitting here thinking about like, a lot of it. For me personally and the people that I've interacted with, that's where it stems from is the instrumental music debate. Again, like, oh, well, that's Old Testament, so we don't have to worry about that. And I do think that this kind of tour observant stuff is the overcorrection to it, I guess. My question real fast, and then we'll get to the steel, man. If somebody were to ask, what is the, the, the most appropriate use of the Old Law of the Old Testament? Like, how should I think the one extreme of just saying kind of, well, that's Old Testament and it doesn't really matter anymore is incorrect. But also, obviously what we're about to get to is incorrect. What would you guys say is kind of the appropriate amount of handling the Old Testament? [00:16:09] Speaker B: It's a good question. I think finding Christ in it, you know, looking for the, the three points of Messianic prophecy, or whatever it may be, and finding Christ and why this matters so much. Why did this matter to God? And the holiness. I think taking principles is a big deal. Recognizing the holiness of God. Like, we wouldn't fully understand the righteousness, the holiness, the hatred towards sin without the old testamen. So it does help us understand God's character. We also wouldn't understand, like, we'd understand grace from the New Testament a lot more. But that's why there, there's. There's. That is it Marcion that, you know, has the two different sides of God. There's the Old Testament God, the New Testament God. Like, we need that Old Testament God to help us understand the wrath poured out on Christ. Why would there be wrath? Well, because he's been doing this for a long time. You know, the wrath poured out on the earth with, with the, the flood and whatnot, and with Sodom and Gomorrah and with the people of Israel and how many times that, you know, letting Korah and his rebellion get swallowed up. Like, there's so many things where we understand God's character a lot more, we understand the need for Christ a lot more, and then we can start seeing Christ come through that. And you Know some of the things that, that were like the feast days and whatnot, clearly those are an illusion towards something coming which is Christ. And so to me, that's one of the best uses of the law is to really understand God on a deeper level, understand the history of how God's people got to the point of the fullness of time and Christ coming and understanding why Christ fulfills the law, which we're about to get to in Matthew 5. But Jack, I'm curious your thoughts. Like how, how exactly would you answer that? [00:17:45] Speaker A: You have to look at the old law as sometimes you hear the division and I think it's pretty helpful. Of the laws of Moses are the civic laws, the ceremonial laws, and the moral laws and the civic. I mean, if you don't have a nation governed by the laws of Moses. But there's a lot in there that a lot of the Western law tradition is built on those civic laws of Moses. But we don't make them eternally binding. It's not one of those like you have to. But these are good laws for a country to observe. The ceremonial laws obviously are done away with. I mean, the things that were for religious observance. Because it's a totally different system. It's a different system. It's. We'll probably get into Hebrews 9, a little bit about the, the New Covenant and the, the bloodshed and the, the new high priest and all the, the changes that were brought about. So there's that side of it, the ceremonial laws and then the moral laws. And the moral laws don't go away. And this is where you'll see the atheists and, and the, the secular people try and do the sleight of hand of, oh, you're against homosexuals or you against eating shrimp and wearing mixed fabrics, like different laws, things that don't apply that do. I mean, because that's. And so this is where you turn that around to the, the Torah observant people. Okay, do you wear polyester? Do you wear, you know, blended fabrics? Do you. Like, how far do you take this? And so the, the purpose of the law is to go in and see God's character in it. As you say, see Christ in. But see God's character and okay, why did he want to do these things? He wanted to be them, to be different than the people around them. Would not wearing polyester make me different than the people around me in a way like that? No, like that's the point is kind of being is lost over culture and generations and all that. So yeah, finding the character of God in there is a really important thing for us to do. But the other thing about the law is it does lead us to Christ. It's the system of cleanliness, the system of holiness, the system of righteousness, blood. We're teaching in Romans, all three of us here. And, yeah, it's showing you what we need. And so if you come out of that and go, all right, we needed Christ so that we could go back and do all this again, I don't think you're getting the point there, but let's make their arguments as best as we can and then. And then kind of get into them. One of the biggest ones is going to be Matthew 5, 17, 19. And so I'll just read it from the new American Standard 95. It says, do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Hey, guys. I wanted to tell you about our new sponsor, the Quarterly. Starting its ninth year, the Quarterly is, according to several readers, the best magazine in the brotherhood. Featuring a wide range of writers, the Quarterly is a fantastic mix of encouragement, edification, education, and enjoyment. The latest issue features both sides of the eating in the church building debate, a detailed look at the events while Jesus was in the womb, the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian. A formerly classified FBI article examining how Moses and Joshua used spies and what principles can be gleaned from it. And that's just barely scraping the surface. Digital subscriptions are free and the print subscription costs less than a family trip to McDonald's. To subscribe or download previous issues, just go to cobbpublishing.com quarterly and look for the focus press. Add in the latest issue. So challenging words there. This. This is one of the things, as I said, they will base their arguments in as to why we should still observe the Torah as it's not going to pass away until heaven and earth pass away. So what would you respond to that? How would you respond to that? I should say I can go first because. [00:21:33] Speaker C: Yeah, go for it. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Go for it. Nope. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Okay. This is one of those things that, yeah, first glance is like, okay, you know make that makes sense. That's a little challenging. I do think it's interesting, first of all, that this section precedes basically all of these places or all these instances where Jesus mentions something from the old law and then basically says, well, you know, you heard it said this, but I say unto you this. Taking it basically an extra step further and speaking to what in Matthew 5. 7, the heart in a lot of these instances, specifically with murder, specifically with adultery. But even with things like, you know, swearing, like let your yes be, you know, but I say unto you this. And, you know, marriage and divorce and all those things that you read in Matthew 5. 7, where Jesus takes something that they would have known very well from the old law and said, okay, but I say unto you this. The explanation I've always understood from this is that when Jesus says, I came to fulfill the law, the idea is I came to complete the old law or to perfect the old law. And, you know, that does not mean that Jesus came for us to continue following the old law. It was a completion of it. And that's again, goes to what I just brought up about. It was no longer about just following the legalistic code and making sure that, you know, that, you know, you didn't commit adultery. Jesus incorporated this idea, okay, well, what about lust? What about, you know, looking upon a woman with lust and these heart issues? And again, that's, you know, what I love about Matthew 5, again, about, you know, the legal code of divorcing his wife. Let him give a certificate, divorce. But I say to you, don't divorce for any reason is what he says. There again, oaths going the second mile. Love your enemies. All these things that go beyond just the legalistic following of the. Of the law. To me, that's what Jesus meant when he said, I come to complete the old law, I've come to again fulfill perfect whatever word you want to use. Those to me are all kind of synonymous there. That's what he's getting at. Joe, what would you say to that? [00:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I was looking through is an interesting phrase, you know, until heaven and earth pass away. Like, well, that hasn't happened yet, and therefore it's not done. Well, I think, as he says in verse 18, or stroke, shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. When Jesus says it is finished on the cross, right. I think that's what's being referenced is it is accomplished, it is finished. The. The entire purpose of the law leading up to that moment, which is why the veil splits, you know, the. The relationship between man is fulfilled. Right. [00:23:58] Speaker C: And that's correct. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Then the relationship between man and God is forever changed at the cross. And once again the veil splits and the earth goes dark. And I think that is the invitation for us to now come to God in Christ as our intercessor. And so the. It is finished, I think, is the accomplishment. However, you could say, okay, what about until the. Until heaven and earth pass away? You can go back to Deuteronomy 30 to Deuteronomy 31. I think Deuteronomy 4 mentions heaven and earth is a witness against them. And I think that could be an allusion to that. You know, could like alluding to the idea of these things have been used against you. But until it's finished, when it's finished on the cross, heaven and earth aren't going to be against you. You could also use it as poetic terminology, because he's going to use very similar terminology in Matthew 24. And I think you can make the case that's talking about AD 70 and AD 70 is when really all of it was pretty wiped out. Their old way of life, the old law, the records of who belonged to who and what tribe was all destroyed with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. And so I think you could also make the case that that is until heaven and earth pass away. Like I said, Matthew 24 would be the cross reference there, that there's some heavy terminology discussing what was going to happen because it was a horrible event in AD 70. So there's a couple different ways I think you could take it, whether he's going back to the old law and saying, hey, they're not going to be used as. As a witness against you for blessing and cursing once, which is what durami talks about. You know, once Christ fulfills everything, then that is them kind of passing away as witnesses against you. So a couple different ways to take it, but I'm curious, Jack, your thoughts on how you deal with specifically that phrase, but just kind of this entire 3, 4 verse section. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah. My mind goes to Romans 10:4, where it says that Christ is the end of law to all, to everyone who believes, at the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes. And that end is that word telos, the kind of the. It means end, it means conclusion. But really kind of that fulfillment, like it's come to what it was meant to be. And Christ is that conclusion that wrapping up the law, he has fulfilled essentially the law for. For righteousness. So that's behind us. Like that is done away With. And So the Matthew 5 word says in it what you're saying there, Joe, about heaven and earth will not pass away until all is accomplished. Well, it's been accomplished. So, yeah, let's. We can move on from that. So, yeah, again, they look at this and say, well, this means we've just got to keep all these things. And again, I would just challenge that. Do you, though you. I don't think you do the. Not the. Because it doesn't just say the. Like, it throws the whole law together. Not one jot or tittle, not one stroke or whatever the, you know, different translations say. [00:26:47] Speaker C: That includes the sacrifices and all that. [00:26:49] Speaker B: It also includes bearing your waist. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like, there's. There's so many things. There's like, so if you don't do all these, you're a bad Torah observer. You're. You're not interested in this. And, and so that idea that, yeah, if your heart's right with God, these are the things you're going to want to do and you're going to be pursuing these. Why not? And there's so many excuses made for the temple, and it's like, well, but it's not there. Okay? There's not a temple, there's not a tabernacle. There's nowhere to do this. If that's what God wanted you to do, he would do it. And you could say, well, so Jesus is our sacrifice. So that part we don't need anymore with the rest. I'm sorry. It says, not the smallest stroke or letter of the law shall pass away. The sacrifices were a tremendous part of the law. And so this idea that we can keep Shabbat because God wants us to do that, but not go cut a bowl open and spill its blood and cut it, you know, throw it on the altar. I'm sorry, you don't get to pick and choose. It's contradictory when they get into this Torah observing stuff. [00:27:47] Speaker B: And if you do pick and choose, there's a lot of prophets that were written to you. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:51] Speaker B: You know, because that's exactly what they were doing in the prophets. And that's what they got just lambasted for, is, hey, how come you're doing these things and not the other things? How. You know, you're observing the feast days, but the heart isn't right. You're doing all these things like Isaiah. [00:28:04] Speaker C: Says, my soul hates these things. Yeah, right. [00:28:07] Speaker B: Like go down the list of prophets, and it's the people of God picking and choosing the laws that they want to follow. And we do the same like those in this, this world, the Hebrew roots or whatever it may be, these movements. Torah observant Christians are essentially doing the same thing and thinking that that's okay to pick and choose. The rest of the Old Testament tells you that's not okay. [00:28:26] Speaker C: Yeah, well, Jack, you've got on here too, under this kind of steel, man. If we were going to steal, man, what they would say is, well, Jesus and the apostles kept it. And to me, this goes right back to what we just brought up about. Yet until all is fulfilled, when Jesus is on that cross and says it is finished, was Peter and you know, the rest of the apostles keeping the Torah? Exactly. You know, as. As we saw 60 days post Jesus's death, right after Jesus ascended, they would. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Say, you see them in Acts, they're going into the synagogue on the Sabbath. So see, they were still going to synagogue. Observing the Sabbath would be their argument to that. So I'll put that out there and see what you guys do with that. They're saying that's on the other side of the cross. The book of Acts, obviously. [00:29:07] Speaker B: I think Jewish Christians still did. Still did Jewish things. I still think this is why Acts 15 exists. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Correct? [00:29:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:29:14] Speaker B: You know, the circumcision of like. Yeah, there's. They were still observing a lot from the old Jewish laws. They were trying to figure out how to make it work. And this is where a lot of Paul's writings come in. Right. How do we blend the two? Like, do we still do circumcision? Do we still do the law? Are we still doing the sacrifices or it meets sacrifice. [00:29:29] Speaker C: Think about how short the New Testament would be if the answer was just keep the Old Law. Right. Like, while I wouldn't apologize, Galatians, you know, again, just. All right, guys, the solution is just go back and keep everything. That's not what he says. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:42] Speaker C: Again, Acts 15, like, all right, we have the solution. No, there's a whole lot more to it. And so that would be my response, Jack, to what you just brought up again, kind of steel Manning, that is. Well, they kept it. Well, then why was there this much debate surrounding it? Again, it would have been a whole lot shorter, of a lot less hassle, if you will, for Paul or Peter whoever to say, you know what, guys, just keep the whole thing. And that's, you know, that's our solution. A lot of books in the New Testament, a lot of verses would not exist. [00:30:08] Speaker B: That's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, for the X ones, it was a lot of figuring out this is New Testament or this is New Christianity. Like, we have to realize when Acts is being written or when Acts is being really enacted. This is very new. They're still trying to figure out what is, what do we bring in, what do we not bring in, what are the Gentiles allowed to do, what are they not allowed to do? For the first nine chapter, for first, you know, ten chapters or nine and a half or whatever you want to say. Until Cornelius comes, the Gentiles aren't even included. So of course there's going to be a lot of Jewish tradition and everything else and the law that's still going to be cut, that's going to come in because they're trying to blend the two, saying what is done away with, what's not done away with. And once again, that's to Will's point, kind of the, a big part of the New Testament is parsing out where exactly it stands. So are there a lot of places in Acts and in the. The New Testament where we see these things? No doubt. Does that make it the right thing for us? No, I think there's a lot of it that is specifically spoken to as you go through. And then you get to like Acts 20, where they're observing on the first day of the week. They're not just observing the Sabbath, they're coming together on the first day of the week. You see that as that becomes the example, that becomes the norm, 1 Corinthians 16, things like that. So, you know, at some point, I think they realize, and the first day of the week, we'll get into the Sabbath here in a sec. But, you know, the first day of the week I think goes all the way back. But yes, you did have them observing the Sabbath to some degree after. Okay, that's. They came out of strong Judaism or the, the old law for 1500 years. That's not just going to stop on a dime in, in a moment. And they go, okay, well, none of it matters. Like, they're trying to figure out what does matter, what do we bring forward. So it makes sense to me that they would still have some of those things. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Right. I think about Paul in First Corinthians 9 with the. To the Jew, I became a Jew so I could win those under the law. To the Gentile, I became a Gentile. Like it, do what you got to do. And he kind of concludes it with, I become all things to all men. So, yeah, a lot of the law keeping. They were doing a lot of the. You're not going to have credibility with them if you're not in the synagogue, if you're not observing these things. That's why he has Timothy circumcised. Like, man, some of these Jewish people aren't going to listen to him. But then he himself is adamant. You don't have to become circumcised if you're a gentile Christian. You don't have to observe this. And if anybody who compels you to, that's what Galatians is talking about. Like, that's a big problem that it's not okay. They would do that. And I was reading on them, on, on their takes on these things of what do they do with circumcision. And so they said that as Torah observing disciples of Yahushua, that's what Joe was talking about earlier. They can't just call him Jesus, whatever, but Yahushua Messiah, each of us are commanded to circumcise our hearts, to give our hearts, minds and souls over the Creator of the universe. In doing so, our walk, our obedience to his eternal Torah will fall naturally into its proper place in our lives. From the Messianic Torah observer website. So basically we don't have to get circumcised, but if you become a good, you know, follower of the Messiah, you're going to like, that's the opposite of what Paul said. That's exactly what Paul was telling people. You don't get to do this to other people. And so, yeah, I, again, yeah, they did practice a lot of Jewish things. And as Paul said, when I'm around the Jews, I act like a Jew. That's so I can reach them with the Gospel. I think that's a big explanation for that. And, and what Joe said, they'd always done those things and so they're going to continue on. I don't think they continued everything. [00:33:29] Speaker C: Okay, so I have a, I have a, I have a question for you guys and this might get into. This might be better served to answer here in a few minutes. But what if somebody were to retort. So for instance, Paul, again, you know, I become a, you know, do the things of the Jews so that I can reach them. What would you say if somebody says, okay, well, what's the harm in a Christian practicing these things? Obviously that's, that's not getting full blown into being a, you know, Messianic Jew or, you know, somebody like that. But let's say somebody like, what if somebody were to say, what's the harm in maybe using that Hebrew language or observing the Sabbath or, you know, I could very easily see somebody make the argument, well, you know, Paul did a lot of that trying to reach people. So is there any harm in it? Even if, you know, again, we're not going to take it as far as these guys do? There are a lot of Christians who I do think, you know, practice some of those things and would. So that would be my question. And I'm just curious what you guys think. If somebody were to say, okay, what's the harm in it? What would your. What would you respond to that with, Joe? [00:34:28] Speaker B: Well, and they might say that that's what made them holy or that's what helped them be holy in the past. Why would we not want to do the things that help us be holy today? To me, I think you are. If somebody wants to observe certain things of the law, I don't think you can be condemned for it as long as you're not pushing on somebody else. But I think you fundamentally misunderstand the point of Christianity. Like, the point of Christ coming was, yes, to fulfill it and to say you no longer need to make the sacrifices, you no longer need to observe every part of the law, because we're under a law of grace. We're under a law of the spirit. And. And so I think Romans and Romans 6, 7, 8, 9, they all come into play here. Where do I think we can do damage? I think it sounds holier to say Yeshua. I think that's why people say it. It sounds holier. It sounds like you're a little closer to God. Like, wow, you know, I told my. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Wife last night, when somebody comes back on from vacation, they're like, yeah, we went to Roma like you went to Rome. Okay? Like, everybody rolls their eyes of that. It's kind of the same thing. Yafe like, look, yeah, I know that's his name. I know all that stuff. You, Jehovah works just as good. It's just a translate it's brought over into, you know, our language, whatever. Yeshua, Shabbat. It's like, it's Saturday. You're from America, it's Saturday. I'm sorry, that's what it is. You're not getting any closer to God. I told my wife, it's like, they think if I call him Yeshua, he's going to answer my prayer half a second faster. Like, it doesn't work that way. He's Jesus. Look, in the New. In the New Testament, he's not Yeshua, he is Jesus. Like, that's the Greek. That's how he's written. And so it's just not. [00:36:02] Speaker C: There's like a subtle arrogance to it. I know exactly what you're saying. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. And that's one of my issues with this whole thing. It's so external. It's the Sabbath, it's the food laws. [00:36:14] Speaker C: But it's just like in Matthew 5 through 7. [00:36:16] Speaker A: Like, that's exactly it. And that's, that's really my, my biggest beef with it. You know, kind of what's the harm in it. You see it start slipping into Pharisees. And the other thing is, Joe and I both experiences. These are the most argumentative, combative people on the entire Internet. I thought libertarians were bad. And I used to be a libertarian. These people, oh, my goodness, all they want to do is debate me. Debate me. Hey, just let's have a debate, me and you. Like, okay, maybe go read Matthew 23 again about the Pharisees. Like, there's some problems with your approach here. And the external things are a big part of that is it becomes about the things people can see about Sabbath and the things you eat. But I was looking up, like, the menstruation thing. Like, during that week of the month, should the husband sleep in another room so he's not clean, Unclean. Does she still go to church? Does she? Well, that part's okay. [00:36:59] Speaker C: Like, okay, it's picking and choosing. [00:37:02] Speaker A: It's picking and choosing. And it's again, the parts that you gain something from outwardly letting people know. [00:37:08] Speaker C: That's your point. [00:37:09] Speaker B: On the workspace. Not on the workspace. Salvation. Like, I'm going to get me. And you hear Christians actually talk this way. Like, I'm going to do my very best and Christ will cover me the rest of the way. Like, your very best. Your good deeds are as filthy rags. Isaiah says, like, speaking of menstrual rags, it's disgusting. Your good deeds are nothing apart from God and apart from Christ. And so I don't go 90% of the way and thank goodness that I have God for Jesus for the last 10%, I offer zero. Well, those that are doing this, I do really think that they're viewing it as I have to give God all of these things and then Christ will cover whatever. [00:37:43] Speaker A: I read multiple sources that explain it exactly as that as we had the law, we couldn't keep it perfectly. Jesus came and kept it perfectly. Now we go back and try and keep it, and anything that we can't do, he's. He's got the change. [00:37:55] Speaker C: Yeah, it's almost the way that I envision it is like Jesus is your safety net, that if you fall, if you know, as you're walking this obstacle course or you're walking this trampoline or not trampoline, you know, ropes course. [00:38:06] Speaker A: If you fall. [00:38:07] Speaker C: Yeah, if you fall and you aren't able to keep, man, well, Jesus is right there to catch you at a safety net. And Joe, you're exactly right. That is incredibly workspace salvation. And there, to your point, Joe, also might be some Christians going, wasn't that kind of how it works for us? And the answer to that is no, we are not walking this obstacle course, this ropes course, where, you know, it's okay if we fall because Jesus is going to catch us. Jesus is pulling us upward towards God and we are pursuing him and striving after Him. He's not our safety net. That's not the way it works. Because then it is dependent on, you know, on how well we are walking the obstacle course, how many times are we falling, all those things, just to go back to the metaphor. And so, yeah, it is very workspace salvation. And Jack, your point about it being the things that you can see is very interesting. Like, I had never. I did not think about that until. [00:38:50] Speaker B: You brought it up. [00:38:51] Speaker C: Like, some of those things that, you know, nobody would know is in the privacy of your home. Like, funny enough, those aren't the ones that are getting the most push. It's the ones that everybody can see you observe and, you know, the language and stuff. I think that's an interesting point. [00:39:02] Speaker A: A lot of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram posts about observing Shabbat, like, Yep, again, Matthew 6, maybe not. You know, there is an interesting part about that. Well, let's get to one other argument in steel man, then. I want to talk about the Sabbath thing a little bit and, and the value there or whatever. So one other steel man argument is the cleanliness laws. When Noah was told two clean air, seven clean animals, two unclean. What was a clean animal? What was an unclean? He didn't have the law of Moses. But the clean, clearly they understood that stuff. Clearly they had some frame of reference for what was a clean and unclean animal that predates Moses. And so they would say, well, look, we're just keeping this. That goes all the way back to the beginning. Same thing with the. The day of rest, right? That, I mean, literally creation, the seventh day, the first week that ever existed in our timeline of. Of Earth's creation. God took a day of rest. That's where we get the Sabbath from And therefore we should still keep Shabbat for those. Sorry, I should not be so snarky about it. It's just annoying. But that we should keep that because this isn't just the law. This is like a universal thing. So I'll put those two things out there. The food cleanliness and the day of rest. [00:40:14] Speaker B: The food cleanliness, to me. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Shouldn'T church be more. If you've ever driven home from a Sunday worship with that question on your heart and on your mind, Church Reset may be the book for you. In it, I explore how the church was meant to be a family carrying out a mission, and instead it has become a business aimed at attracting consumers and therefore lacks the power that God intended for it to have. Pick up a copy of Church reset today@focuspress.org or on Amazon. [00:40:43] Speaker B: It just goes straight to Acts 10 of it's all been made clean. You know, with it coming down on the sheet. Right. The vision from Peter. So either even if that does predate the law, the same thing with the Sabbath. Like we do actually see that before the law is given. Even this, if this does predate it. And that goes back to creation and God taking a day of rest, I think from the food cleanliness portion. Yeah, that's done away with just from Acts 10. And God saying all has been made clean. I don't think that's just alluding to Gentiles coming in. I think God is saying all has been made clean from the other ones. That is a more that say tougher. More. More difficult. Specifically like on the Sabbath. Of that predating. I think the principle is. Right. The principle of a day of rest is there. I don't think it has to be the first day of the week because you can also look at like Ezekiel 20 and there's some. Some other Old Testament that clearly ties. I don't know if we're getting fully into the Sabbath right now, but like that clearly ties the Sabbath to God's covenant with his people, with his. With the Israelites. So he says, I gave you my Sabbath as a way to basically come closer to me. That tells me that that wasn't like he gave his people Israel at Sinai, which is specifically mentioned Sinai. I think it's. That may be Ezekiel. Was it Ezekiel 40? There's Ezekiel 20 as well. That. Yeah, those are given as a way for the people to draw closer to God. But that was also for that time. So even though. Yes, it predates it, we don't see the rest of the Old Testament talking about that in that way, talking about the Sabbath is like, well, we know this goes back before the law. No, it very much ties it to the law. So I don't know. That's maybe a weak answer. [00:42:24] Speaker A: I would. [00:42:25] Speaker B: Yeah. What are your thoughts? [00:42:27] Speaker C: I might be off on this. I don't have much to add for the cleanliness, the food or the cleanliness for food and animals and such. But for the Sabbath, kind of predating Moses, a lot of that has to go back to. Or goes back to what? Creation. Right. With, you know, six days of creation and then the rest on the seventh. I would argue for us, as new test, for us as Christians, there is still some of. Some of the, you know, the idea of having a day of rest, a day that you devote fully to God, the day has just changed. It is, you know, for us, it's Sunday. And, you know, there's argument, you know, there's a discussion to be had about, okay, does that mean we should absolutely never work on Sunday? Does that mean that you shouldn't, you know, you know, go out and do anything, you know, even remotely work from home or anything like that on Sunday? On Sunday, different discussion. But that's what I would say is the. The pre. Whatever predates the law. That was very specifically, as Joe just spoke to, tying it to, you know, the seventh day, that being Saturday, and you know, all the. The kind of rituals and again, laws associated with that. Whatever predates that is just simply you have a day that you give to God, you have a day that you are fully devoted to God and, you know, rest is thrown in there. That's Sunday for. For us as Christians. So that would be my answer. Jack, what are your thoughts on both of those? [00:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah, the cleanliness, I mean, yeah, it has been taken care of. And the day of rest, that is something I've taken more seriously over time as, like, making Sunday an actual day of rest. Because a lot of times I would just, okay, it's Sunday afternoon, especially when the Sunday night service went away. Like, all right, I can kind of get a head start on the week's work and projects and stuff. Yeah. You know, just things like that, you know, and it kind of hit me like, you know, actually this. And it's not like you're. You're reading the Bible the entire time you get home from church and just open the Bible in prayer until midnight. You know, it's. It's family time. It's resting, it's enjoying. We have a good meal together or whatever. And that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of freedom in Christ is it's good to observe a day of rest. It's good to go and worship, and then it's good to think, how can I use this Best to grow closer to him, to rest, to enjoy him and his blessings or whatever else. Not. Not this thing of, well, can I. How far can I go on the. The Sabbath? How am I allowed to travel? Am I allowed to, you know, all the Pharisaical things, oh, they're picking grain, therefore they broke the law. And I don't know if you've seen the. The videos that go around about. And I don't know how much the Messianic ones do this, but the Jews, the Jewish tricks that they've come up with to hack the Sabbath, because the Sabbath, they say it's work to turn electricity on. You're making the electricity work on the Sabbath, therefore you can't turn on a light switch. So, you know, throughout the house, you leave some lights on. They have lamps that you can turn them. So they're closed in the shade there. It gets dark, but it. Then you can turn it. [00:45:15] Speaker B: Killing. Killing the power, the lights. [00:45:17] Speaker A: The power is not coming on and off. But, you know, that. Or. I saw one of a guy was getting his big coffee thermos filled up on Friday night, you know, one of those pump pots so that he could leave it on overnight so it would be hot in the morning, because he can't make coffee in the morning because then he's keeping the Sabbath. He didn't make the. Or they. They can get on an elevator, but if somebody else pushes the button, it's okay, but they can't push the button for themselves. Like, you get into this stuff and it's like you're not tricking God, but also to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5. You're missing the point. Whereas as Christians, we can look at it in Sunday and go, how can I best use this? I don't have to try and keep some goofy regulations, jump through hoops, any of that stuff. It's going to draw me closer to God. And so, yeah, the Sabbath thing, I think is interesting. You know, will you, being a Chick Fil, a guy very famously closed on Sundays. I think that's a great thing. I think, you know, I've talked to people old enough to remember blue laws where businesses had to be closed on Sundays. I would like to see that return. I would like to see a move toward that. More and more businesses taking the Chick Fil a plan, whether it's by law or by not. But that's not legalism. That's just, hey, let's. How best can we use this day to honor God to make it possible for people to go to worship things like that? [00:46:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I was looking at first Corinthians 11 with the Lord's Supper, because I remember being told or being said that one of the reasons they were having issues with the Lord's Supper is, you know, the rich were eating and, you know, first off, they were blending the like, common meal with that. Basically taking the Lord's Supper as part of the potluck type of thing. Well, one of the things I remember hearing in Bear Valley was that you had some of the poor that were working on Sunday. And I thought that was interesting because, you know, that's, of course, in the Gentile world. I don't know if we can make the case. I was looking at that. I don't know how strongly you could make that case that some are working. We know they weren't waiting for one another and so, like, where were the other ones? And that's the. The theory is that you had some Christians who were working on Sunday and so is it a sin to work on Sunday? I agree with you, Jack, in the fact that. And this is something that I've given more thought to. I haven't yet necessarily made the, you know, the call to not do anything on Sunday type of thing and to really scale back, which I probably need to, because that's something I've been given thought to, is, yeah, this is intended as a day of rest. That part definitely the concept goes back to the beginning, the idea of resting. Now, for the other Sabbath thing, we don't see Abraham observer. We're not seeing Noah observer. We're not seeing Enoch or anybody like that observe it. We're not seeing. I read something like, we're not seeing Melchizedek observe the Sabbath. We don't see like the people before the law observe it. Even though the principle was technically in place going back to creation. [00:47:58] Speaker A: But on the other hand, five verses on all those. [00:48:01] Speaker B: I was going to say so. Well, well, not on Abraham and Noah, but yes, Enoch and on Melchizedek and such like the. We don't have a ton on them. That was. Somebody's making the case at that point. And I agree we don't have a ton on them. But the point would be like, do we see God's people before the law observing the Sabbath? No. Do we think. Do I think there's day of rest? Yeah, I think that is a good concept that we probably should continue in. And then I was going to read that Ezekiel 20 passage, because here's what he says in Ezekiel 20, verse 12. Also, I gave them my Sabbaths to be a sign between me and them that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. I thought that was interesting. That's the purpose of it, is to know that we are sanctified by. That they were sanctified by God. That still is a really good thing to observe on a Sunday, is to know that you're sanctified by God, to know that, to remember Christ and to really keep that day as one where we are focusing on him to start the week rather than, hey, I got my two hours of church and now let's go and you know, do whatever we want for the rest of the day. Not think about him like, no, the purpose of the first day of the week and even the purpose of the Sabbath really was to sanctify our minds, to set our minds on God, and that was to kind of lead us in the week. So, yeah, that's. I think I glitched there for a second. But anyway, so I, I hope that that makes sense for those that are looking at the Sabbath as transcendent. That, yeah, the concept I think is, is good, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to keep Saturday. The other thing I was going to say is in researching this, there's so many new test or early church fathers, the, the prenazing fathers that basically are like, we, we don't observe that anymore. They all talk about Sunday. They all talk the Lord's Day. There's so many of these. And I was watching one of their videos, like, well, there's some early church fathers, and it was an early church father I literally had never heard of that was talking about this. And then I started researching it. And I mean, they had a Catholic website, they had several websites where they were going through all of the early church fathers saying, no, you got Ignatius, you got the Epistle of Barnabas, you got all these other ones that are like, they talk about the eighth day of creation, like that's the first day of the week as they come around the new creation, founded in Christ, things like that. So the Sabbath was not specifically tied to early church, as, as some will say that they are, as this movement will say that they are the Torah observant Christians. Oh yeah, the early church didn't know. [00:50:29] Speaker C: They didn't know I'm valuable that you bring that up because that is something they'll say. I had one last question, Jack, before I think you were probably about to kind of wrap the discussion here. We kind of went breeze by pretty quick. Why do you think there is such a combative approach with this, with the, with these people? This is something that, you know, y'all aren't going to necessarily share the story, but you know, there's a big dust ups. You guys had just kind of online, you know, messaging type of thing and it is one of the most dramatic things I've ever seen. Like, you know, just message after message after message of like, you know, just trying to argue and not come to an agreement, not come to a solution. Just hear me out, hear me out. This is, you know, this is why I'm right. Obviously there is an element of that for anybody who believes something very strongly, obviously atheists and you know, stuff like that. There does seem to be an extra layer of again, just combativeness here. And I was curious since you guys have dealt with this more, what your theories are as to why that is. [00:51:24] Speaker A: It's funny you bring that up. I have had enough experience with these people. I basically have a rule of like, I will not engage them on, on very specific terms. I set those terms because I know like the combativeness is out of control. And so these people contacted me and Joe want to have a talk. I kind of set my terms immediately and they just immediately breezed past it. Just in the first five minutes, like, no, I'm not, not agreeing. It wasn't even anything ridiculous. It was just basically like basic cordiality like, we're going to do this, we're going to talk this way. Nope, not interested. And so I, I jumped out of the conversation. They kept Joe going for five days. I mean just message. It was hundreds and hundreds of messages. That's why I don't. [00:52:05] Speaker B: Between me. Yeah, yeah, they're just under every one. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Joe, in an avalanche. I just had somebody coming at me the other day and message me, you know, comment, comment, like, okay. And I just said, you know, I looked in his profile and said, oh, the Torah observant. I said, yeah, have a nice day. Because not that they shouldn't be evangelized, not they shouldn't be corrected or anything like that, but these people go roving online and you'll hear about Cage Stage Calvinists, which is when people really come to Calvinism and they've got to like convert everybody to it. That's the same thing of this of like, I've got to Go argue with everybody and tell everybody they were wrong. I've got this secret knowledge that I found of about the old law that I missed all these years, and I've got to go set everybody straight on it. And. And so the fruit of it is very ugly. I mean, it is the. In fact, I was reading one of their own people and said, you know, one of the challenges we run into in our Torah observant communities is just constant splits. Like, you don't say, like, that is not a healthy fruit of the belief system that you espouse. And so I think it's because they think they found some secret knowledge. And when you do that, you need everybody to validate it. [00:53:10] Speaker B: And this turns, as you correctly said earlier, Jack, this turns you into a Pharisee. I don't see Jesus trying to convert the Pharisees. I see Jesus going, yeah, you got your reward in full. And that's very much what these people are looking to do is, well, I'm better than you. I'm holier than you, because I go back to the original language, the Hebrew, or I go back to the law. I go back to the. So they're espousing their own holiness out there. And, yeah, I don't think it's good to engage with them. The other thing is, they will go to the nuclear option. Well, you're anti Semitic. Excuse me? Like, we don't. We don't just throw terms like that around. Because I don't. Right, Because I don't agree with you that the temple is coming back. Or I don't agree with you that we should serve the law. [00:53:50] Speaker A: That's where it started, was there's not going to be a temple again. And it was made very clear that it was believed to be anti Semitic. Like, I'm sorry, that term, it's. It's not gonna work. You said don't engage. I would say that. Use the Proverbs thing. Answer fool according to his folly. Answer it is his folly deserves. But you see, like Nicodemus, when somebody comes genuinely, it's like, all right, let's sit and have a conversation. When somebody comes at you, both barrels blasting. [00:54:13] Speaker B: It's a great point. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Do what Jesus did. Sidestep it. Throw a question like, oh, when's the last time you went to the temple? Like, oh, Shabbat. You're from. You're from Tel Aviv. I thought you were from Mississippi. You know, like, come on. So answered as it deserved. And I'm not saying to be mean to these people. I'm just Saying, like, don't let them drag you into. Because it is wild. Like, it's very hard to explain unless you've seen it. These people really like arguing. So just to wrap all this up, there's great value in the old law. We would do very well to focus on it, to understand the cleanliness laws and the beauty that Jesus brought to us in that. It took all of that so they could get close to God, so they could get to the outer doors of the tabernacle. Right? That's as close as they could get. That that's what all that cleanliness did in Christ. We have the confidence to go with our high priest within the veil. I mean, like, it's beautiful. It's incredible. Like, the access we have and. And all of that. And it's everything. I mean, like, Paul would be pulling his hair out. The Hebrew writer, whoever it was, whether it was Paul or whoever else, pulling their hair out, going, you're doing this again. You're going back. Like, haven't we told you like that? No, we've moved past that. It's a better way. It's a new covenant. It's all these things. You think of Acts 15 and when they sent out, like, all right, what do we need the Gentiles to do? And it was like, four things. It was so basic. It was not. You know, it is ridiculous. Like, the. The degrees to which some of these people are almost, like, trying to change their ethnic identity to fit in. And it's not healthy. The Internet can really lead you down some. Some rabbit trails when you think you found some secret knowledge. So just be careful with what's out there. Appreciate the law. Again, the rabbi podcast, the. The. The Jewish readings of scripture. Take it with gigantic, gigantic grains of salt. Get the value out of it and. And leave it at that. So we're going to wrap right there, I believe. Joe, you've got our Think Fast this week. So what do you got for us? [00:56:07] Speaker B: Correct. Yes. So the JFK files were just released when we were recording this, like, two days ago, three days ago, maybe. I was curious for you guys if there was a. If we could have the full file pulled on one thing in scripture that's like, okay, there's enough. [00:56:23] Speaker A: I hope it would reveal more than the JFK files. [00:56:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no kidding. Like, Big Nothing Burger yet? No. If you could have one part of scripture fully explained, 10,000 pages on it. You know the full file. Because we always ask. We're just gonna have to ask God when we get to heaven. Okay, let's Say that. That God brings a little bit of that down and he, you know, gives you a file and yes, Scripture's all sufficient. Okay. We're not talking about. Well, it's lacking. No, I mean, God gives us something. [00:56:52] Speaker A: About like a doctrine or what happened with an event in scripture or any of it. [00:56:56] Speaker C: Any of it. [00:56:56] Speaker B: If you. I'm talking. Yeah, anything. Okay. So Will. Will understands the assigned. What do you got here? [00:57:03] Speaker C: Will I do? The first. The first thing that came to mind immediately was what happened essentially what happened with the. The fall of Satan and like the angel rebellion. I think that would be fascinating to know. Obviously, you kind of got the Nephilim side of that and, you know, sons of God marrying the daughters of men. Like all of that just, you know, here's exactly what that means. Here's exactly what happened. Here's how Satan fell. You know, just would be utterly fascinating. The other one would be how God's providence works. You know, how. You know, how. How much does he, you know, grab. [00:57:44] Speaker A: The steering wheel, so to speak. [00:57:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Puts his thumb on the scale to work in people's lives. You know, how much. What do our prayers do? Like, all those things. Those are the first that immediately came to mind of like. I would just love to fully understand how all that works, because anybody who says, oh, I understand. No, you don't. Like there. There's just so much there that's, like, difficult to comprehend. Those are my answers. Those are. Good question. [00:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm a little stumped. I'm still thinking. You have some. [00:58:11] Speaker B: My first thing was the nephilim, you know, all the Hyzer stuff. There's just a lot of interesting. The sons of God. You know what. What does the divine council look like? Is there a divine council? And you know what? I'd love to know a little more on that because there's few verses that we string together with some speculation and such. I think that would be fascinating. Yeah. And I had one. I feel like I had another one that was. That was relevant from the New Testament. But that would be the biggest one for me is kind of how does that specifically work? Get 10,000 pages of a document. Because then you get into. Second, Peter has some really weird stuff like will talk about the angels, and Jude has some really weird stuff about the angels. Not like them not keeping their proper domain. And what exactly does that look like? I think that to me is like, I'd love to know a little more about that. [00:59:02] Speaker A: Well, regard to the angels being around. You guys were talking right before we gone got on about the First Corinthians 11 and head coverings. That'd be a real interesting one. And again, it's always just driven me nuts about that passage because Paul's like that random line, you know, because of the angels. Like, what are you talking. Yeah, so that's a very small one. I don't know what happened to the Ark of the Covenant. Maybe, you know, like. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Well, we know from Indiana Jones, it's in a warehouse somewhere. [00:59:29] Speaker A: Right. The U.S. military holds onto it. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, on the spot there. I'm having a hard time, but I like the answer. It's a good, good pass. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's always fun to think about those things. As we said, we'll know a lot of this when we get to heaven. I always thought JFK would be one of those that would never actually come out. And I still think that's the case. 10,000 documents later or 10,000 pages later. I still think that we're going to get to heaven and go, okay, what exactly happened here? I don't think we're going to care when we get to heaven personally. But if we do, I think we'll get the real answer. I don't think that gave us that. But there's a lot of things in scripture that I'll be, you know, I'll be intrigued even, you know, why does. Why do you make. Was it Isaiah to walk around naked, free. I understand the point, but it's like. [01:00:13] Speaker A: I was going to say, though, some of the prophetic things that they had to do. His wife and like. [01:00:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Ezekiel playing like army. Army men type of thing. Like what. There's just a lot of those things that are pretty bizarre. I'd love to know a little more on the. The chair beam and what that things, what that looks like and such. But the. You see those YouTube videos which are really kind of disturbing of like biblically accurate angels, and they're all the eyeballs and you're going really, really, like, I don't know. So plenty of stuff out there that's pretty interesting. Pretty intriguing, but let us know. So comment. Make sure if you're on the. The deep end or if you're in our Focus plus group, make sure to go to focuspress.org backslash+ to join. But if you're there, I'd love to know your comments. Comment on the episode, of course. But I'd love to know what your thoughts are on. If the files were released on one particular thing in scripture, what would you want it to be released on with 10,000 pages of, you know, specific subject. So, fellas, anything else? All right, we'll wrap right there. Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you again next.