Holiday Hangout: Listener Hot Takes, Blind Ranks, and More

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press, Jack Wilkie, Joe Wilkie, Will Hera with you once again for what we A couple years ago we did a first one of these, the Holiday Hangout. Last year we didn't, didn't get around to it. It's a couple days before Christmas, a little more of a light hearted thing. Obviously we know people will be traveling and so hopefully you'll get to listen on the way wherever you're going or whatever you may be doing this week. But yeah, nothing, nothing real heavy hitting towards the end. [00:00:37] Speaker A: If you're here for the deep intellectual discussions, maybe maybe come back next week. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Think a little less deeply this week for sure. But what we did a couple of years ago was just kind of a few games, a few hot takes, things like that, some of the fun things we like to do, some of the inside jokes for long time Deep Thinkers references and things like that. And so we, we've picked a few of those things we like doing would you Rathers and underrated, overrated and things like that. So that's what we're going to do today. [00:01:05] Speaker C: What did we do last year? [00:01:08] Speaker A: I feel like it was a Q. [00:01:09] Speaker B: A Q A. Yeah, because we had done. You're right, we did the 100th episode which was tons and tons of questions like this that was like late October. So we didn't want to go back to that well again. But yeah, these are kind of fun to end the year again. Just have a little more just joke around a little bit. Have a good time and talk some Bible stuff, talk some church stuff. Some again things that we've talked about and kind of revisiting them. We've got some listener hot takes that we solicited and we'll, we'll be rating those and giving our our thoughts on those. So thanks to everybody who submitted some of those. Anything else before we get into them? [00:01:44] Speaker C: You know we always say it's a riveting episode or something. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Some of this content I feel like is pretty riveting. [00:01:49] Speaker C: So actually some of this I think is yeah, we're, we're excited about this. [00:01:53] Speaker A: One thing I would say for our Deep Thinkers, specifically our Focus plus subscribers, please make sure that you, if you have a hot take, put it in the comments so that we can maybe address that for the deep end. This deep end will be a little bit more difficult to do if we don't get any comments. So if you've got a hot take or a thought on some of our takes that we're about to give. Make sure and comment that, and we'll cover that in the. In the deep end. [00:02:16] Speaker B: All right, so we're going to start with blind rankings. If you're not familiar with the game, it's. You give somebody a category, and then you start giving them answers to the category one by one. And they've got to rank them, but they don't know what's coming. And so they might rank something really high. And then they're kind of in a tough spot because other things they like more come out ahead of it. So we're going to go. We've got different topics for each of us. Who should I start with? Who should I put on the spot here? Let's start with will. [00:02:43] Speaker C: We're doing five, seven. We're doing five, seven, 10. Do you want to ramp up? Because we'll end with yours at 10. So I'll start first. [00:02:50] Speaker B: No, no, let's do Wills. [00:02:51] Speaker A: I. [00:02:51] Speaker C: You. [00:02:52] Speaker B: I don't want to get you right away. Yeah, start on that note. So Joe or Will's category is Think deeper. Episodes. We're making him rank. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Oh, boy. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Blindly. The episodes we have. Joe, do you have this list? I don't think I gave you. [00:03:04] Speaker C: I don't actually. I don't think I'll give it to him. [00:03:06] Speaker B: No. I'll shoot it to you, and we'll do it one by one. So number one. I know this is probably going to be high on Will's list. It's a favorite of his abandoned public schools one through seven. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Oh, man. Yeah. This is tough because, like, I would think that'd be pretty high, but I don't know what else is coming. I'm gonna say to play it safe. I'll be safe here. I'm gonna say number three. [00:03:26] Speaker B: All right, Joe. [00:03:31] Speaker C: Man, that's. I didn't know you're gonna ask. Sorry. [00:03:33] Speaker B: No, I didn't ask for the rankings. You're giving him the next thing. [00:03:35] Speaker C: Oh, the next. I'm sorry. I'm like. Feminized leadership. [00:03:42] Speaker A: That one's probably gonna have to be ranked pretty low because I don't remember what that. I don't remember doing that episode. I know we. I know we've talked about feminized leadership before. [00:03:52] Speaker B: I think it was, like, April of this year. [00:03:55] Speaker A: Oh, the feminine. My goodness. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna. I'll probably. I'll go with six on that based on the fact that I don't remember exactly what we talked about. [00:04:05] Speaker B: All right. Musical worship. We did all things hymns and styles and things like that. [00:04:12] Speaker A: I really enjoyed that one. This is tough because it's like. Is it my personal favorite or is what I think was one of the best episodes that we did? [00:04:19] Speaker B: I think that one Public schools. Or is it below public schools? [00:04:22] Speaker A: No, it's definitely not above schools. I'm gonna have to go with four on that one. [00:04:26] Speaker B: All right, Joe. [00:04:26] Speaker C: Okay. God's view of reproduction and fertility practices with Dr. Brad Harold. [00:04:32] Speaker A: That's. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Do you know Dr. Brad? Have. Have you met him before? [00:04:35] Speaker B: You're not. [00:04:36] Speaker A: No. [00:04:36] Speaker B: I mean, you're not gonna put the Brad episode at number seven, are you? [00:04:41] Speaker C: Brad, if you're sorry. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Just that. Just that made it a worse episode, in my opinion. No, that was funny enough before about June of last year. That was our most listened to episode by far. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Then something happened. [00:04:55] Speaker A: That's. That's, that's, that's. That's an older one too. Okay, so I'm gonna go. Man, I'm like crowding the middle here. I don't want to necessarily go five with this one because I already have. But I already have a 3 and a 4 based on my personal enjoyment of that one. I'm gonna go number five. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:18] Speaker C: You just didn't want to say seven because. [00:05:21] Speaker B: In trouble. [00:05:22] Speaker A: Well, I thought. See, the problem is that would be like a perfect 4. 3 or 4. But I've already taken those. That's the problem with blind rankings. [00:05:27] Speaker B: All right, next. Masculinity matters. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. I'm gonna go with number two on that one. [00:05:34] Speaker B: All right. Probably our earliest. Like our first one that we got a lot of good feedback on and a lot of. So that's still when people talk about. Go ahead, Joe. [00:05:48] Speaker C: How to know when a church has been captured. The critical theory. [00:05:51] Speaker A: Oh, let's go with seven on that one. [00:05:55] Speaker B: Well, your number one is going to be what happens when we die. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Oh, man. So the number one Think Deeper episode of all time, according to Will. So to recap. [00:06:07] Speaker C: You're. [00:06:07] Speaker B: You're listening. What happens when we die? First, masculinity matters. Second, abandoned public schools. Third, feminized leadership. No, no. Musical worship. Four, the reproductive episode of Dr. Brad Harab. Five, feminized leadership. Six, how to know when a church has been captured. Seven. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Okay, so if I were doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker B: If you can do one change. [00:06:28] Speaker A: See, he gave me, like the best one first, I'd pro. Or I'd probably actually go abandoned public schools first. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:34] Speaker A: I'd probably go mad and probably leave Masculinity matters. Where it is at number two, you. [00:06:39] Speaker B: Can do a swap. You can't. [00:06:40] Speaker C: Oh, one. One moves to four. Four moves to one type of thing. So one swap. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Abandoned public schools goes to one. [00:06:50] Speaker B: All right. [00:06:50] Speaker A: I can't have my number one be wrong. So, yeah, that would be my. That'd be my swamp. That's good, that's good, that's good, that's good. All right, are we doing Jack next, or are we doing Joe? Maybe do Joe last. [00:06:59] Speaker C: Yeah, let's do Jack next. [00:07:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:02] Speaker C: Next. [00:07:02] Speaker A: All right, Jack. So Jack's blind ranking is. He is going to rank Focus Press products. Joe, I'm going to text you in the order that I have. The order is very important here. Okay, Here we go. 10. There's going to be 10 here. Number the first one convicted. [00:07:21] Speaker C: This is. This is rough. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Convicted. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Oh, man. So hold on. Categories here. When you say products, are we talking strictly books and DVDs or, like, find out? [00:07:30] Speaker C: No, we are not. [00:07:31] Speaker B: No, I need to know. I need to know. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Just books. It's not just books and not just DVDs. [00:07:35] Speaker B: Oh, man. I'm going to say Convicted has sold so many copies. It's been used by so many people. It's so useful. [00:07:42] Speaker C: Full. [00:07:44] Speaker B: It can't be lower than two. So let's say two. [00:07:46] Speaker A: Okay. Will you keep the list for me? [00:07:50] Speaker C: Yes, I will. [00:07:51] Speaker A: So he's got. He's got Convicted at number two. All right, Joe. Take away. [00:07:56] Speaker C: All right, Failure. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Oh, man. That's my book on. On public education. Unlike Will's podcast list, this one's going very low. Eight. [00:08:07] Speaker C: No way. [00:08:08] Speaker B: Wow. [00:08:09] Speaker A: See, I was curious to throw that out. Or throw that one out there. Yeah. [00:08:13] Speaker B: You know, come a long way. I think I should have let Joe. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Ask this next one. I. I wanted to have one from all of us on here. Quick Guide to Quitting Porn is number three. [00:08:23] Speaker B: And it's. [00:08:25] Speaker C: It's short. That's okay. You can put it in. [00:08:27] Speaker B: It's useful. Let's put it in the middle. You know, I think that's pretty big help for people. [00:08:34] Speaker A: So what number are you on? [00:08:35] Speaker C: 5. [00:08:36] Speaker B: 5. Joe's Quick Guide. [00:08:37] Speaker C: What a nice guy. What a nice guy. [00:08:40] Speaker A: So he ranks that as a failure. How about that? [00:08:42] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Wow, that's so nice of him. Okay. Who let the dogma out? [00:08:46] Speaker B: Oh, man. Oh, man. [00:08:52] Speaker C: This is a fun one. [00:08:53] Speaker B: I love that podcast. A little bit of a insider info here is wheels are turning to bring it back. So we get a lot of questions about that. [00:09:05] Speaker C: That's really insider because I didn't know that either. [00:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, unfortunately, we've kind of got the rotating chair thing. We're gonna have to do that again. But we think we got a third guy we are looking at starting next year. So three. Wow. [00:09:20] Speaker C: Wow. [00:09:22] Speaker A: He's gonna. He's going to be faced with some tough decisions later on. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Oh, boy, he is. [00:09:27] Speaker A: All right. Family Worship Guide. [00:09:30] Speaker B: That's another really good one. Oh, man, I did not do this well. Like, I think it should be above Joe's book, but I don't want to take the four spot. [00:09:42] Speaker C: Five was generous. I was generous. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Seven. Seven. Sorry, Will, man, you should have gotten the five spot. But I had already given it up. [00:09:49] Speaker A: Not doing volume two now. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Well, we'll just write it for you. [00:09:54] Speaker A: That's right. [00:09:55] Speaker C: No, rank it higher. Yeah. All right, next one. Think deeper. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Oh. Oh, no. [00:10:01] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Will loaded this. He stacked this list. [00:10:04] Speaker B: One, three, or. Oh, no, I. What did I give? Oh, I gave three away. So one or four? [00:10:08] Speaker C: You have 1, 4, 6, 9, and 10. And the other ones are doozies. I'll just tell you that. [00:10:13] Speaker B: I have to give it one. Here we are. We're gonna give it to one. [00:10:16] Speaker C: Go. [00:10:16] Speaker A: Gotta go one. [00:10:17] Speaker B: That's how it goes. [00:10:18] Speaker C: Okay. [00:10:21] Speaker A: All right, next up. Yeah. It's me Walking with the Word Mark. The Mark Study Guide. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Oh, man, I should have put Failure lower. Let's just. We'll put that. We'll put this at nine. [00:10:32] Speaker A: So, Joe, what do we have left with three products? [00:10:36] Speaker C: We have four, six, and ten left. Four, six. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Pretty spread out. [00:10:40] Speaker C: Oh, okay. Our Patreon. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Oh, Focus plus six. This. [00:10:51] Speaker A: I can see how this is gonna go. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:10:54] Speaker A: All right. Number the. Not the second to last one. Think Magazine. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:11:01] Speaker C: Four and ten. [00:11:02] Speaker B: I'm sorry. I think I know what number four is gonna. What's left? So I'm gonna say ten for. Think. I might regret that if this is some other thing, but. [00:11:12] Speaker A: All right. [00:11:13] Speaker C: Well, of course. Yeah. Of course not. The very last one. Church Reset. [00:11:15] Speaker B: No. I knew that's what it was gonna be. Yeah, four is fine. So. [00:11:19] Speaker C: All right, so, Joe, here's the list. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Read the list. [00:11:20] Speaker C: Here's the list. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:11:21] Speaker C: Number one. Think Deeper. Number two, Convicted. Number three, who Let the Dogma Out? Number four, Church Reset. Number five, Quick Guide to Quitting Porn. Number six, Focus Plus. Number seven, Family Worship Guide. Number eight, Failure. Number nine, Mark the Working with the Word Mark. And number ten, Think Magazine. [00:11:38] Speaker A: What would you get? [00:11:39] Speaker C: One Swap. [00:11:47] Speaker B: I'll swap you guys books. Sorry, Joe. [00:11:49] Speaker C: I was gonna say mine would Think Magazine. Think has Gone out to a bazillion people. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. It's been a big deal, but. [00:11:55] Speaker C: Okay. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I could do that, but. Yeah, well, yeah, I. That was my first regret. Was putting wills low, so. Okay, there you have it. [00:12:03] Speaker A: How's it going? [00:12:04] Speaker C: Well, I'm hurting. Wow. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so, Joe, we saved the spicy one for last for Joe, which is controversies of the Think Deeper era. Certain things that have stirred up much debate online. Things that. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Can I. Can I call an audible? Jack, I'm thinking of one that is not on there. Can we make Joe have six? [00:12:25] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, if there's. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah, let me text it to you just for sure. This one. I couldn't believe you didn't have it on the list. Oh, I. Oh, shoot. Joe, don't read that. I text the wrong person. There you go. Jack just texted you. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:12:39] Speaker A: You could add that one. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, let's do it. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Okay. All right, Joe, so you have six. [00:12:43] Speaker B: I'm not gonna do this in the order that I put them in. I'm gonna drop one down to the end there. Okay. People should get married. We did an episode on that. Dr. Brad got 350 Facebook comments on that one. Very angry people. Three saying that. Yeah. So. [00:13:03] Speaker C: All right, I'm gonna say three. That was a good one. That was a good one. [00:13:06] Speaker B: The whole debate over. I think it's singleness. [00:13:08] Speaker C: Okay, let me ask you this. Are we talking not. I don't know if you want to say fun, but, like, most fun. Are we talking most significant in terms of content? [00:13:15] Speaker B: I would not say fun with. With the way this is going to go, but. [00:13:18] Speaker C: Well, yeah, it's probably not fun, but yeah. Okay. In terms of, like, how much it blew up, I suppose. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Sure. [00:13:23] Speaker C: Like. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Okay. I'm gonna go ahead and do the one that I accidentally texted Joe. Boycotting Disney. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Oh, man. Oh. If it's a personal favorite of mine, that'd go way high. We were on that. Ahead of everybody. Four. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Oh, wow. I thought you'd have that higher. [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I will. [00:13:46] Speaker C: Yeah. I think I have a few of these other ones. Ah, yeah. All right, well, so I. Wait, I took three and four, right? Yeah, yeah, I know one of them. That's gonna have to be number one. I don't even know the other ones, though. [00:13:58] Speaker B: I think this one is gonna be pretty low for you, but open communion versus, you know, serving the Lord's supper to everybody thing versus more closed or whatever. [00:14:07] Speaker C: That was an interesting one, I'm gonna say. I'll say Six. [00:14:12] Speaker B: It was the quietest of them, but it was the quietest issue. [00:14:14] Speaker C: Yeah, this is a good one. Yeah. [00:14:16] Speaker B: All right, three left. Will, what do you got? [00:14:17] Speaker A: All right, dressing up for church. [00:14:21] Speaker B: That. [00:14:21] Speaker A: The church clothes controversy. Casual versus dressing up. [00:14:26] Speaker C: I'll have to put it at five. I probably put that one at five. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Okay, so you've got number one and two left. [00:14:34] Speaker C: I think I know. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Saving those one and two. [00:14:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I know what these are. [00:14:38] Speaker B: Obviously, the alcohol controversy, number one. [00:14:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:44] Speaker B: This week, so we won't spend any time. [00:14:45] Speaker C: That leaves number two as. [00:14:48] Speaker B: What's your guess? [00:14:49] Speaker C: Halloween. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Halloween. Yep. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a proper. [00:14:51] Speaker A: So what's your. What's your list, Joe? [00:14:54] Speaker B: So alcohol, Halloween, people should get married. Disney dressing up for church. Open communion. You're gonna swap Disney for the married one, aren't you? [00:15:04] Speaker C: Probably, yeah. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Okay, so there it is. There's our blind. [00:15:07] Speaker C: That wasn't terrible. That wasn't terrible. Yeah, it wasn't as spicy as I thought it might be. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the. [00:15:12] Speaker C: Yeah, the. The clear number one. Like, going into it. That's the only controversy that I could honestly remember going into it. [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:19] Speaker C: So, yeah, that's a clear number one, but everything else kind of falls in place after that. [00:15:23] Speaker B: All right, well, there's our. Our blind ranking sets. That was. That was challenging. That's fun. It was. [00:15:29] Speaker C: Yours was a good idea. Yeah, that was a good idea. We initially had five for Jack. He told us, well, we're just gonna do five for everybody. And Will and I are looking through the Focus Press store like, no, we. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Gotta do more than that. [00:15:39] Speaker C: No, no, we're not second to five. That's way too difficult. So. Especially when we opened up the podcasts. That's. That's good stuff. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Nice. [00:15:46] Speaker B: All right, so what did we. I said listener hot takes. Is that next or. No, it's. Would you rather. Next. All right. [00:15:53] Speaker C: Rather. Next. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Correct. Joe, you just went last, so you're gonna go first this time. Okay. My. Would you rather for you all go to. For the rest of your life, go to worship, where it's all devo songs, or go to worship, where you have to wear a church where you have to wear jeans and a T shirt to church? [00:16:12] Speaker C: Oh, no. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:16:16] Speaker C: Oh, no. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Oh, man. I've never seen Joe in a pair of jeans in his entire life. Let's add that to the. [00:16:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's true. [00:16:24] Speaker C: Always slacks in the. And a tux. No. Just kidding. Yeah, like khakis. More. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Oh, man. Joe. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Wow. [00:16:31] Speaker C: Boy, that's tough on the one Hand, you could take all the jeans and T shirt and, you know, technically get them worshiping correctly with the old songs. [00:16:42] Speaker A: You'Ll get out of here. [00:16:45] Speaker B: On the other hand, that's. You're most likely to have both of those together. [00:16:49] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Probably. Yeah. Second one. Second one. I'd rather go with jeans. [00:17:01] Speaker A: That's rather wear casual. You're just entrenched in this take. That's all it is. [00:17:04] Speaker B: You just. [00:17:04] Speaker A: So let it go. [00:17:05] Speaker C: The other one would lead. No. Okay. No, I will switch. Because there are some Debo songs that genuinely do like the. If it was only that, it would be tough. But I can't get around the idea of wearing casual on a Sunday morning that just. That grates on my nerves too much. So, yeah, I got the first one. [00:17:22] Speaker B: The listeners. If you have a. Would you. [00:17:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:17:25] Speaker B: If you have a. Would you rather give it to us, but also tell us where you are on that one? Devo songs all the time or casual church all the time. Some of you. I'm gonna already do that. And so that's an easy one. But we. We had Joe D. In there. [00:17:37] Speaker C: Will came for Jack, and this is classic. [00:17:40] Speaker A: Oh, no, I'm proud of this one. All right, Jack, would you rather have your diet be made up of things cooked in seed oils? [00:17:46] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Or be a youth minister at a megachurch? [00:17:50] Speaker B: Oh, no. Oh, youth minister at a megachurch. [00:17:53] Speaker A: That easy. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Oh, is that easy, huh? Oh, yeah. Wow. And I can. I can do a little bit of. I have a little more agency with the other one, so I cannot picture. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Jack as a youth minister, let alone a youth minister at a megachurch. [00:18:07] Speaker B: No. Yeah, it would be. I'd be like, righteous lot. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, kidding. But no, that's. That's an easy one for me. Okay, well, Joe, hit Will with it. All right. We're gonna have dancing, too. This one is way less serious, way less church related. I just. I couldn't. [00:18:25] Speaker C: Well, would you rather your son become a Michael Jordan superfan or an Alabama fan? [00:18:30] Speaker A: Oh, no, that's good. [00:18:33] Speaker C: Oh, for the record, for those that do not know, Will is the biggest LeBron James fan out there. He is definitely on the. LeBron is the GOAT conversation rather than Michael Jordan. So, yes, we know that's going to stretch inside. [00:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No, my answer is Alabama fan. [00:18:50] Speaker B: I can't be an Alabama. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I can't deal with the Michael Jordan super fans. All right. [00:18:54] Speaker B: I'm teaching Jackson to say Roll Tide. Not that I'm an Alabama fan, but. No. Just because it's funny. Okay, that is not what I thought you'd pick. [00:19:04] Speaker A: I. I can't deal with the. This Michael Jordan stands, as they say. [00:19:09] Speaker B: All right, it's time to rate. Oh, go ahead. [00:19:11] Speaker C: I was just gonna say, he didn't grow up in the 80s watching where everything was better back then. So, you know. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Oh, boy. You know, it's gonna get more people mad at him. [00:19:19] Speaker C: I was gonna say. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Hey, guys, Jack Wilkie here. And I wanted to tell you about the Focus Press holiday sales going on December 3rd through mid January. We've got discounts on all kinds of books and DVDs, including devotionals, our teen devos, or will Harab's Family Worship Guide for Family Devotional Times. We also have books and DVDs on the fundamentals of the faith, like Dr. Brad Harb and Will Harab's Starting Line or my book, Sunday School Catch Up. And of course, there's deeper studies, such as Dr. Brad Harab's convicted A Scientist Examines the Evidence for Christianity or my book, Church God's Design for so Much More. Get discounts on these and all of our other content aimed at shoring up your walk, your home and your church as we aim to help you stand strong in today's world. Check it [email protected] shop. Speaking of hot takes, there, Joe the hot take guy, we've got listener hot takes. How do we want to do this? We want to rate them. Five peppers kind of thing. Spicy versus non spice. How do you want to do it? Yes, no, or a rating or. [00:20:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I just thought about talking like, do we agree with him? [00:20:28] Speaker A: Giving our reaction to each. Yeah. [00:20:29] Speaker C: Giving our reaction each. Yeah. [00:20:31] Speaker B: All right. Youth. [00:20:32] Speaker C: I have not seen these. [00:20:33] Speaker B: Youth ministry is helping and not hurting the church. [00:20:38] Speaker C: That's a hot take. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Helping and not hurting or hurting and not helping. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Is it? Oh, did she say. I think I copied that down wrong. Yeah. Hurting, not helping. Sorry. [00:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's what I was gonna say. [00:20:46] Speaker C: Helping, not hurting. That's a freezing cold take right there. No, I mean hurting, not helping. [00:20:53] Speaker B: My mistake. [00:20:54] Speaker C: I'm obviously the anti youth ministry guy, so that's. I'll stay quiet on this one because you know where I fall. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Well, I'm a youth minister to megachurch now, so. [00:21:02] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. So the hot take, to be clear, it was. It was hurting, not helping. I think. I do think, ultimately I agree with that. I don't want to get any of my people that I know that regularly listen to this that are youth Ministers, you know, love you and respect you. I think overall, and I have said the qualifiers before, like overall as a construct, I think it's hurting with the qualifier of there are people that do it well, and there are people that do it do a pretty good job at it. But mainly the reason that I would agree with that hot take is because it is just continuing to take the onus off of families and fathers and the, the roles and responsibilities that they have is kind of getting, you know, just, I will let the youth minister do it. And so I think ideally you return a lot of that responsibility. You return a lot of that not, not burden in a negative way, but kind of that weight to the fathers and to the. Obviously the parental unit, but mainly the fathers. And so that would be. That'd be my answer. [00:21:58] Speaker C: I think that's the correct one. Before Jack gets this, I think that's the correct reasoning there because it's not whether they're good guys, whether they're bad at their job like that. It is enabling. It's a crutch. Anytime you have it correct, it. It creates a certain feeling in the church of like, I don't have to do anything because I have my son who's going to do that. That is the problem with youth ministry, in my opinion, is it just incentivizes parents to sit back and do nothing. So that is not a. An indictment on all the youth ministers out there. Like you said, I got several friends that are youth ministers as well, and they're doing good work. But by and large, that's why it's a broken system is, hey, we have him to do the job. It's an enabling type position. And we all know enablers don't really work. So, Jack, any thoughts on that? [00:22:44] Speaker B: No, I, I think I'm pretty well in line with what you guys had to say. All right. We have three on essentially the same category, so I'm going to hit them all kind of at the same time. One said, the more paid staff a congregation has, the lazier the members. Another one said, do not say or people should not say. The preacher isn't doing his job, whether on things of having me over, evangelizing, things like that. And then another person I, I think it was Rob, summed it up pretty well. The preacher should not be the only one doing all the visiting, teaching, outreach, just because he is paid, but because he is paid, no one in the congregation should ever be outworking him in those areas. So kind of three different levels of a very similar take Joe or Jack. [00:23:28] Speaker A: Read that second one again. So the last one where it kind of makes the point that it's not his own, like that's not the only, he's not the only person in the congregation that should be doing it. However he should be doing it probably more than anybody. I pro, I actually kind of agree with what was the second one because I think I disagreed with that when I heard it. [00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. It wasn't phrased so much as it's kind of in a hard way, but it says blank whether minister, elder or deacon and his wife are not doing what they're supposed to be doing, whether having us over to eat, visiting people in the hospital, etc, this drives me up a wall is what the comment says. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the only reason I would just not, I would disagree. I, I, where I agree is I don't know if the commenter is talking about like the people that complain about, man, this person never comes to see me. This person, like, you know, you can invite them over. Like I agree with that. Where I would maybe disagree is like if they're not doing that, then that is kind of a problem. Like if you've got elders and, and elders, wives and deacons and maybe less deacons, but like, you know, ministers who are not doing those things, that's kind of a problem. So obviously I'm not sure the tone of the comment of like if it's talking about. Because there are a lot of members who just expect kind of to be catered to by the ministers and catered to by the elders and I don't think that's okay. Like, you know, this is a two way street here. You can invite them over to your house or you can invite them out to coffee or whatever it is, but if you're a minister and an elder, you kind of have that needs to be pretty good part of your week. I would say. [00:24:46] Speaker B: So yeah, I think that other comment struck the nice balance of yeah, everybody should be doing it, but they definitely, especially if you're paid for it, that nobody else should be outdoing you in it. [00:24:56] Speaker C: So the first one's interesting and I would, I would very much agree with that. I think the more paid people you have, it's the same thing as what we're talking about. It's just the more incentivized people are to not do anything because we're paying you for it. And it's not just a one person because you could get away with. You pay one preacher and it's like, look guys, I can't do 30 things at once. Okay. We have seven paid people on staff. Well, now it's really not my job because it may be the preacher's job and it's not him. He's got six other people underneath him that are paid that. Surely it's their job. The outreach minister and the youth minister and the evangelism minister and whatever else minister like. I do think that by and large, and we got some listeners, I'm sure that they go to congregations like that. And this isn't. Once again, this isn't a judgment as much as it's an observation. Most of those are consumeristic churches, most of them. And the idea of having multiple people on staff is actually to create more engagement, is my understanding. The problem is, I do think you create engagement among a certain number, but most people, it's through a program base, as Jack, you've talked about before. A lot of them are through programs. And that's what the youth or the minister in charge of that is doing. Doing is, let's start a program here. So nothing's really organic, and a lot of it is asked. So even if you have members that aren't necessarily. They're not thinking about having people over as much as there's a program in place to have people over. And yes, I'm painting with a very broad brush here. So please, no hateful comments of like, well, we do a great art church. I'm sure there are people out there that do it. Great. By and large, from the ones I've been to. I think that's generally how it works, is what I'd say. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Well, yeah, if the job is equipping the saints, there has to be work for them to equip them for. And if you're doing all of it, then that's. That's not how it's working. All right, so. Interesting kind of trio that go along together there. All right, here's one that I think we have had internal disagreement on. This person said lads to leaders, is fundamentally flawed. I'll read the rest of it. Leading the church in worship to God is not a competition. The only audience is God. He judges the acceptance of the worship based on his holy standards, not if someone pitches the song correctly or if he stutters during the lesson. All right, so I think we've got two sides here, and I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, so rate this take. [00:27:03] Speaker C: Yeah, have at it. Great. Thanks. Will, do you want to go first? You're muted. [00:27:10] Speaker A: Sorry. I said, no, you go first. I'll rebut. [00:27:14] Speaker C: I do think the person makes a very valid point that I don't. I've vacillated quite a bit on this one because I do think it can do a lot of good. And I think it can help a young kid from an early age kind of understand maybe what he has a. A gift for in a way. I also think it's good to get kids past. Like, there are inherently good things about it where it gets kids past the stage fright, where they get used to being in front of people. They get used to leading songs or whatever it is. When you start them young, they're much more likely in their teen years and such to do it. And so I'm sure they've turned out a lot of people. I went to Future Preachers for a number of years in Denver, and I think it was very good. The person's critique is very legitimate, though, in the fact that having kids that go away balling because, man, they didn't do it super well. I think it. The upside is really good. The downside is really bad. I think it can really discourage kids from wanting to. When they do get stage fright and run off and then they're getting judged and they're not in the winner's circle and. And so it takes it and makes what should be them just getting up in front of the congregation when they're young and helping lead to. Yes, we're. We're making it a competition. And the competition piece is part what makes it fun for the kids and partly what makes it brutal. In that I grew up playing hockey. Competition is natural. Competition is normal. It's actually really healthy, especially for young guys. When it comes to the word of God, I don't think competition really helps all that much. [00:28:40] Speaker A: So here's my question. Joe, what would you say the purpose of Lads to Leaders is? [00:28:45] Speaker C: The best parts of Lads to Leaders? The purpose is to get kids in the Word, get kids studying for Bible, get kids who are studying to preach and things like that to get up there and give a lesson and really helping them in that way. So I could easily make the case that the best parts of Lads to Leaders is about that. I could also easily make the case that the worst parts of Lads to Leaders really. [00:29:07] Speaker A: Hold on, hold on. But what do you say the purpose of Lads to Leaders is? Like, what is the purpose of it? There's a reason I'm asking this. I just got to set it up here. [00:29:15] Speaker C: You can't have the purpose without the competition. So it is to compete about the Word of God is really what it comes down to. [00:29:21] Speaker A: Okay, maybe, maybe I'm asking wrong, essentially. What's the objective? [00:29:25] Speaker C: What's the goal for kids ultimately to work on themselves. But once again, that is to, to. [00:29:34] Speaker A: Grow into and to improve the way that they lead in worship. Right. [00:29:39] Speaker C: Can they do that without competition? [00:29:41] Speaker A: What is the purpose of a preaching school? [00:29:45] Speaker C: Oh, I would say that's way different. That's way. [00:29:48] Speaker A: Okay, so why, why. Obviously it's different in the sense of like one you're going for an education, but like the purpose 1 is a. [00:29:54] Speaker C: School that has to, yeah. Has like standards to hit with the state and things like that. Like you have to give grades you have, otherwise it's not a school. This one is not a having a standard to meet where kids are signing up to go to school for two years of their life and they're going to be doing deep Bible study and writing papers and taking. [00:30:09] Speaker A: But I think they're on very different ends of like the, the weight to them, the weight to how important they are. One is guys going for a career and they're, you know, they're not. But I think if you kind of look at it, look at them kind of isolated. A lot of the goal is the same. Like we're trying to, first of all, they're trying to grow their Bible knowledge. They're trying to grow as a preacher, get better at those things. Last to leaders, to me is just a more juvenile, more juvenile version of that. And so the, I guess the biggest problem I have is like, if you are, if you are someone who like just is so adamantly opposed to the competition part of it, then just do your own thing. Then just train them up to be song leaders and, and speakers or whatever it is like by yourself. I, I feel like everybody who has a big problem with lads to leaders, I hold the competition's like, okay, then don't do it. Like, I guess where I'm struggling with it is like that, that is a motivational factor to say there are elements of improving yourself as a speaker, improving yourself as a song leader, improving your Bible study, like improving your ability to, you know, memorize things about the Bible. And if it's just kind of a free for all, hey, everybody wants to do their own thing. I feel like it would kind of be a pointless exercise if that makes sense. Like if everybody's just, hey, free for all, do your own thing. I, I with the qualification of yes, there are a lot of people that take it way too far. Like, make it all about the competition. You Gotta, you know, make it like a sport event. [00:31:37] Speaker C: There's always going to be people like that. [00:31:38] Speaker A: You know, there's always extremes. But like, to be honest, I think. And this is gonna sound harsh if your kid can't handle. Not your kid, the. The metaphorical. You can't handle the fact that somebody else did a better job than him and he's going to go out crying. He probably shouldn't be in lads leaders in the first place. He probably has some other things he needs to work on if that's kind of the reaction he gets from that. And so I feel like. I guess what I'm saying is I feel like people hide behind the crawl, you know, don't you feel bad for the poor little kid crying, like. Yes, I do. But he probably shouldn't be in lots of leaders at that point. So don't hide behind him when there's a much better purpose, I think to it. [00:32:12] Speaker C: Here's. Here's the other thing I'd add then. I want Jack's comments on this to wade into this. Here's the one other thing I'd add two other things. First off, let's be honest. There is a level of nepotism. There is a level of. How do you want to say it? Yeah, I mean, I don't know any other way to say it. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Insider, something. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Yes. There are certain kids that are going to get scored higher and better based off of who they are. That is. That is not a. I will stand. That's a bowl. [00:32:42] Speaker A: That's a bold. I will say somebody who never did last the leaders. That's a pretty bold. [00:32:46] Speaker C: I know how these things, trust me. And I was on the inside of. So I know how these things work. Second off, I do think it also incentivizes. I don't know. This is a tough one and this may be a real hot take. There are those who are really good speakers, no doubt. I think it incentivizes the. Those who have a gift for speaking in that way. Whereas you may have a guy who's not incredibly gifted at speaking but is incredibly good at putting lessons together. He's never going to get recognized in that. He's never going to win any competitions, even though. So I think it incentivizes. In an American Idol generation. It incentivizes the person who looks the best looks. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Aren't you the guy though, that's argued that not everybody should be in the pulpit. [00:33:33] Speaker C: I do agree with that. My point, though is you look at somebody like Jonathan Edwards who gives potentially one of the most powerful lessons. You know, what is it? Right. And my understanding is he was incredibly monotone during it, but my goodness, it. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Sounds like you should have done lots of leaders then. [00:33:52] Speaker C: Sorry. Sounds like he would have lost the last leaders and would have gone away crying and never preached that lesson because we wouldn't have given him the opportunity because he is a, you know, because he's not Joel Osteen up there. That's what. I guess what I'm. [00:34:05] Speaker A: What I'm hearing is kids. I guess what I'm just hearing is like an aversion to the idea that some people are better at this than others. And we do like you do want better. You want to get kids better at it. [00:34:17] Speaker C: Define better. This is my. This, this spreads into so much more because I know I'm really zeroing in on the speaking part of it, but that's a big part of Lads to Leaders. I'm not a huge fan and maybe this is just because I'm not a great preacher. I don't know, because I'm a little all over the place. I don't like homilytics classes. I've taken several of them. I took them every year in future preachers for what, seven years. I took three different homilytics classes in Bear Valley. I read the homilytics books. I'm very aware of the homiletics. And all it comes down to is gimmicky. You got to get them in the first five seconds, you got to keep them. And there are people that are fantastic at it and it's complete fluff. And there are people that maybe aren't the greatest of speakers, but my goodness, they are fantastic preachers. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be striving for both. No doubt. My point is Lads to Leaders is going to incentivize the Joel Osteens rather than the Jonathan Edwards. It just is. So that would be my, my other side of it. I'm with you, Will, in the fact that, look, you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen type of thing. You need to know your kid. You need to know if he's going to. He's going to end up collapsing type of thing. I understand that. So I'm not saying take it away for everybody, but the person's theory of it's fundamentally flawed. Yeah. There are parts that resonate. Jack, I'm curious your thoughts. [00:35:21] Speaker A: I got one follow up question, but Jack, you go, you go ahead. You've been quiet for a bit. [00:35:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I Don't really have a lot to say. I, I don't think there's that much of a difference between this and the, the schools. It's just a question of whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing like that it's okay that there's not a different or like that. They're. They're the same thing and that's good. They're the same thing that's bad. And I think. And so I, I would not make the distinction that you do. I think Joe has a point about the kind of preaching we pursue what we think of as, as good and. But on the other hand, will you have a point of like technical proficiency in song, leading and speaking and all that? It's not just anybody can get up and do it. Those are good things. Obviously, kids knowing the Bible is a good thing, you can get into the competition side of it. I'm not a huge fan of that because that motivation evaporates as, as you would once you graduate out of this thing. Nobody's giving you a trophy for memorizing Bible verses. And so on the other hand, they know those verses now and sometimes for life. And so that's, you know, there's, it's a mixed bags, you know, And I can say. You can. I mean, you can say there's plenty of good fruit that comes from it. And so on the other hand, I, I'm not sure I'm going to do it with my kids, even though I want them to know the Bible. And if the boys are inclined toward preaching song and whatever, I want them to do it. Well, I'm not sure. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's, that's a big long non answer to say. I see. Good, bad. Yeah. [00:36:44] Speaker A: Two things. Two things I'll say. First, one, I don't believe it's the golden ticket that the last leaders convention pushes. Oh, 90 success rate of like. No, I think that's ridiculous. But the question I had for Joe and then Jack, I guess for you, if you're more in line with Joe here, what ideally, what would you do if you were the head of last leaders? Don't like the comp. Like, what would it look like? What would the structure be? [00:37:06] Speaker C: Everybody gets participation medals, Right? [00:37:08] Speaker A: That's exactly what I'm saying. [00:37:12] Speaker C: I think the question would be would you have it at all? Not whether you'd be a leader. I mean, if you were a leader, how would you fix it? Would you have it at all? But yeah, again, the fruits of it. There are a lot of positive fruits from it. So we go to lads to lead. Like, we. Our kids don't. But obviously focus press goes. And as supporters, but also as people that are, you know, we. We see a ton of people there, a ton of friends and such. [00:37:35] Speaker B: I think the thing about the success rate you bring up, Will, is, like, there. There's something to that, but it's also because it's the kind of families and congregations that will put their kids in something to push them to learn the Bible and things like that. Like, I. I don't see this and things like that. I'm just saying, like, it. Those things go hand in hand. It's not one or the other. It's not like, oh, well, these. These families wouldn't be teaching their Bible without it. But on the other hand, it is a tool that gets them teaching their kids about. [00:38:01] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. [00:38:02] Speaker A: This is the other thing is I've done last leaders with a couple congregations, and you can tell the kids that are just showing up to last leaders practice and show up to convention because their parents are making them. They're not really putting any effort. Guess what? Those kids don't. They're not rewarded in that way. Versus the kids who do truly study, who truly work on memorizing their speech or getting better at it, work on, like, those kids. There's that incentive structure there to where the kids that are just showing up because their parents are making them go, it's like, okay, you're gonna have a cool week in Opryland, but that's like. That's all you're gonna get out of it. Versus the people who are really pouring themselves into the. The young kids or whatever point of into it. And it's a much. It's a much more positive experience for them because not only are they learning the Bible better and again, getting better at these things, there's some sort of like, hey, you know, you. You. You earned this in this way. If you take that away. And it's just, well, again, the kid who barely shows up and doesn't really try all that hard is getting kind of the same treatment as the people who are really working hard. I don't know. Like, that. That's what frustrates me about, like, that's why I asked when you. How would you structure it? Like, what would be different? That's kind of what I'm getting at. [00:39:05] Speaker C: We did leadership training for Christ back in the day years and years ago. I think it's gone way liberal now, way, way more. But I don't know Actually, so I can't speak to that. But it was very much that you put a ton of hours and time and effort into things. And the Bible was pretty straightforward because it's just answers. But the other things, judges. Yeah, it was all that. Everybody was getting golds. Like, well, hold on. We can't all get golds. We really worked hard on this. So, yeah, you have a point there. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Of. [00:39:31] Speaker C: You can't necessarily do that. We'll get off the subject. But I. I'm on the fence on whether I'd want my. My kids involved. I'm leaning toward Jack. Probably not at the. At the same time, if you can keep it top of mind as to why you're doing this. And ultimately it's not really for the gold. There are plenty. I like competition. I'm going to put my boys in sports specifically for competition. It raises testosterone. There's all sorts of stuff, you know, like, it's good for guys to compete. I just don't know that I like competing that way. [00:39:57] Speaker A: And I'm not trying to call you guys out. To me, I feel like that is a piece of evidence toward the emasculation of the church. We can handle competition in sports. We can handle competition in hockey and in basketball. But as soon as you do anything remotely spiritual, it's all got to be participation trophies. Like that just. That bothers me fundamentally. [00:40:15] Speaker C: No, there are people that are better, but, I mean, you know, better at certain things. But they're also not doing hospitality classes. They're not doing any of the other things like. Or things that the boys may be good at. Not every guy is going to be good at song leading and. And, you know, getting up there and speaking, but he may be a fantastic worker. So it's incentivizing the things of the church we want to incentivize, which is why we have a preacher class. But nobody else in the church wants to do anything because, oh, I just have no gifts, like. No, there's a lot of gifts that go along with it. Last leaders never really gets down to. So it's either you are a preacher, a fantastic song leader, or a. I. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Mean, there's a lot of other person. That's not just those two. Those are the, you know, main ones. But there's. [00:40:52] Speaker C: I would say. [00:40:55] Speaker B: The thing about the competition is you don't want to be a better preacher to be better than the other guy. And I kind of think of Peter and John, that interaction at the end of John's gospel of like, well, what about him? You know, If I want him to live forever, that's. That's my business, you know, That's. That's his job. That's not your, like, that's not. There's not. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Why you do it. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Competition, you know, Well, I want to be greatest in the kingdom kind of thing. Like. Well, that's. There's some of that. [00:41:18] Speaker A: The competition is a motivational tool is the way that I see it. Not to be, like you said, not to be better than, you know, the guy sitting beside me, but to get better and to improve. [00:41:27] Speaker C: Okay. What if you do your. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Your very best and you get bronze because two kids just are more gifted at it than you? [00:41:32] Speaker A: That's the. That's the life. [00:41:34] Speaker C: That's. [00:41:34] Speaker A: That's what I mean. [00:41:35] Speaker C: That's a tough sell to an eight year old. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's discouraging. Well, okay, but they can do that in hockey. [00:41:39] Speaker A: They can do that in hockey. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah, because that's not. That's not. Yeah, because that is the point of those things. The point of these things is to proclaim God's word not to be, you know, to get the gold medal. And so other thing about it is, I think I've told this story before. I remember a dad coming out of the debate room and he said, yeah, my daughter made the other girl cry. Like, and he was really proud. Like, she. She put her into such a corner. The other girl just broke down crying, like, all right, this went a little far. You know, like, it's that, yeah, yeah, you won. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Like I said, there are those examples, of course. [00:42:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, Breeds. [00:42:12] Speaker C: I would say if. If. Let me ask you this, will, and then we'll move on. You are always in the winter circle. You are a gifted speaker. If you absolutely stunk. And year after year you went in there and got your teeth kicked in. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Which I did in song leading for a long time. Yeah. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:28] Speaker A: I feel like I would because it was not the case for me in songweeding. I spent years trying to get better. But that's. That's my point. I feel like I drastically improved as a song leader year by year by year. I feel like I drastically improved as a speaker year by year by year. And the. And the years that I lost in song leading and the years that I did not get first in speech. My life did not end. I did not go home crying and oh, my goodness, I hate doing that. No, it's just. And I am like, I'm not trying to use myself as the ultimate example. I just feel like this is an example Again, not trying to call anybody out of us. Coddling kids to the point where we think they cannot handle anything even remotely competitive when it comes to this stuff. Again, your goal is not to like. The main objective is for you to not have a bunch of trophies on your, on your bookshelf as a 14 year old. The main objective is to get better as a speaker, get better song, get better at Bible bowl. Whatever the, the whatever the event is, the competition is a motivational tool to do. That is my position. And if you can't. And like, that's why, because this take has been around forever, people that say, well, we just don't like the competition. It's like, okay, so is that, that you're not going to let your kids do anything else competition wise, because your kids can't handle it. [00:43:38] Speaker C: But what happens when the competition, this is the Jack's point. When the competition dries up and you need the kid to step up in church, but there's no gold medal at the end. You need him to memorize scripture, but he's not getting, he's not getting judged off of this. He's not like you need him to do all of these things in the church. Whereas if I play hockey to this day, there are going to be winners and they're going to be losers. And if I play hockey at 70 years old, they're going to be winners, they're going to be losers. That is not the case at this point. I preach because I feel called by God to preach and because I'm passionate about preaching. There ain't no gold medal on the line. A lot of times there's crickets. A lot of times it's like glazed over looks and people falling asleep. It is not the glamorous job out there that, you know, we have a great congregation. Not to make it sound bad, but like, it is not this glamorous job where there's always, at some point the competition shifts to real life. And if you, if the reason you got the kid to do it is for the competition as a motivation that dries up real fast. [00:44:26] Speaker A: So I'm not saying how would you change it? Just everybody just show up and do what you like. Kind of teach their own. [00:44:36] Speaker C: Either don't have it or I don't know. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Well, okay, let's reframe that question. How did churches do it before about 1965, we just didn't have kids learn how to preach. I think we could figure it out, but this is quickly turning into the labs of leaders episode. So they got Us with that hot take whoever. [00:44:59] Speaker C: Yes, they did. [00:45:01] Speaker B: I think they submitted an honest anonymously. So good call there. [00:45:04] Speaker C: But yeah, nice, nice. [00:45:06] Speaker B: We're a little all over the map with our responses to it, so they, they gave us a good one there. Hey guys, Jack Wilkie here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening. All right, this one briefly. The devotional approach to Bible study is one of the weakest ways to interact with Scripture. Let me get a little bit more on that. Instead of looking for the application of Bible passages, what does this mean to me? We need to be looking for implication. How does this Bible passage impact my beliefs? The application approach distorts the original message, whereas the implication approach asks the readers to adjust their beliefs or understanding to what the Bible actually says. What do we, where you go with that one, Jack? [00:45:59] Speaker A: Why don't you go first on this one? [00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I think that's great. I think, and that's kind of what we're trying to do with the who let the dogma out is get your beliefs right and your actions flow from it. Whereas people go to it of, okay, what am I supposed to do? Like, well, you don't even know what's right and what's good or bad. [00:46:14] Speaker A: What's. [00:46:15] Speaker B: What's right or wrong. And so get that settled. And that will largely dictate the actions that come from it. You can, it can be very drive by when you're just going to it looking for actions. [00:46:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say, I'd say my biggest issue with it because I, I mostly, I guess I agree with this. My biggest issue with the application devotional type thing is it's usually devoid of context. The devotional books, the, you know, quick hit, 15 minute thing is like, all right, this one verse, all right, how does that apply to you? I agree, like, I think that's a pretty poor way to study. You know, if you're maybe doing it to get a, you know, nice thought for the day for your kids or whatever. Okay, maybe that's one thing. But like, if you're trying to study, yeah, it's a very poor way to do it because it's devoid of context and it is very, as the commenter said, kind of me focused. How does it apply to me? I think there's time and room to ask that question. That's why the Bible was written. It applies to us. But again, for Bible study, I think it's a pretty, pretty weak way to do it. I would agree with that, Joe. [00:47:10] Speaker C: I'd agree as well. I think anytime I've had thoughts about this because this is not just a Church of Christ thing. This is obviously Christendom with a lot of devos. But I do think it appeals to Church of Christ because we kind of have the works based approach in a lot of ways of like, what can I do? How can I be better? What can I work on? Just tell me what I can do to grow closer to God. And so it's very like, that sounds terrible. That's a great thing. The way we do it though, seems very much like I just got to constantly be doing and doing and doing and doing. And so every time you're reading it's like, okay, what can I come away with? How can I be a better person? How can I be a better Christian? I just. It almost feels like you're just never enough. There's always something more to do and that can be good sometimes to motivate. It can be good to see what we need. Obviously there are things that we as Christians can grow in and be doing better at. On the other hand, there's something to be said for really working on the beliefs. And one of the biggest beliefs is you are saved, you are saved and righteous people saved people live a specific way. And sometimes to me, the devos and the application base case always is working from a deficit and not a surplus, in my opinion. So. But yeah, I think you guys make good points. Will I especially your context point, I think is spot on as well. So not much more. I did. [00:48:24] Speaker B: All right, last one, stop baptizing children. We've talked about this before. He says anyone under 16, at least we did a whole episode on this so we won't spend too much time on this. But he says if they're not old enough to work a full time job or get married, then for the same reasons they aren't old enough to commit themselves to a life of serving God. [00:48:49] Speaker A: I've. I got a lot of thoughts on this, Joe. I don't know if you want to. You want me go first? [00:48:52] Speaker C: No, you go. Go for it. Go for it. [00:48:55] Speaker A: The a. So the age thing is, is what always kind of gets me of like anyone before below the age of 16. The problem I have with that is I don't think we can scripturally place any kind of Set age, got to be 18, got to be 16. There's a guy I know kind of making the round saying it's got to be 20 based on a passage I think back in Deuteronomy or something like that. Like I'm, I don't agree with those, with those takes. I don't think you can put a hard, fast age on it. It's an interesting case, I suppose, as far as the age of accountability goes. But the hot take of stop baptizing children, I agree with. I think we baptize way too young in the church of Christ. 8 year olds, 10 year olds, goodness, in some cases even 12 year olds. I think the line that I make personally, and there's no, I guess there's no scripture to back this up either, but, but if I've got an 11 year old who has an 11 year old boy who hasn't gone through puberty yet and doesn't really understand what lust or anything like that is, which will probably be his biggest temptation he has to deal with and he's getting baptized, I, I think that's some shaky ground. Personally. I do think you need to, the kind of full time job and get married thing. Like I, I don't think you have to have your life fully together and just be a well balanced functioning adult to get baptized before you can commit your life to Christ. But I do think you need to have a pretty good understanding of the temptations that you're going to be faced with, the things you're going to have to say no to. Kind of the what being a Christian is all about. And I just feel like a lot of 10, 11 year olds, again, specifically ones who have not gone through puberty yet, not even in high school yet, they could get there, I suppose. Obviously Joe, we've talked about this before. You were 10, I was 11. Like we were young but in, we struggle with that. I mean, not to speak for you, but I know you've said that before. Like I struggle with that as well. Like was I too young? I, I, as I said in the accountability episode, I very much would lean more towards later into the teenage years. I wouldn't put a hard fast age on it necessarily. But yeah, that would be my answer. Joe. [00:50:47] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I, that's, I was hoping you'd go to Jack next. I've even changed, I think, and not changed. I've done a lot more thinking even since our episode. I would lean more toward later. It is really difficult though when it does, like if you go to what does a Kid need to know in order to be saved. Did the Ethiopian eunuch, Did all of these people that had about three hours worth of study fully understand what they were stepping into? No. My kid has 12 years steeped in the church, going to Bible class every day, Family devos talking about this around the dinner table, praying, learning to pray, learning to lead, learning to do all of these other things. He has such a foundation of the gospel by the time he turns 12, 13, 14 years old that that would be the case I'd make. On the other hand, yeah, I do agree like with what Will said. I think we baptized him way too early. I think I was baptized too early. I don't. We talked about the rebaptism. I didn't get re baptized. I think I knew what I was doing to a certain point. It just makes it very difficult too early on. So if I was making the case for a little bit earlier and I would say earlier being 13, 14, I would say my kids know more about the gospel than the Ethiopian eunuch or something like that, the flippian jailer ever did. And they got baptized and they lived a for, for all we know, lived faithful lives to Christ. On the other hand, yeah, there are challenges they're going to hit but it's kind of like, okay, at what point have they hit enough challenges to really make it worth it? What if my kid lives a super cush life, is super sheltered. Is he ready at 18? Well he's 18, yeah, but he's ultra sheltered. And then at 18 maybe he goes to college and boy, we didn't get him in time because we weren't really sure and he had a pass for this back 14. And yeah, I know the whole if there's a passion it'll stay, you know, stay with him but for four years straight where he's going, man, beating down the door on it. And we keep telling him no, no, not old enough, not old enough. That's a tough one for me. If it's a passing phase and in two weeks he doesn't think about it anymore. He's clearly not ready. But at some point I feel the man, this continues to come back up. I'm going to have a tough time shutting my 13, 14 year old son down if after two months he's still coming back going dad, seriously, you know what, what are we going to do here Type of thing. So I think, I think that's a good, not as dogmatic. Sure. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:59] Speaker B: I think the takeaway from what you're saying there, Joe, is That it's not about knowledge. And I think that's so many times what we make it of. Like, well, my kids know more than Ethiopian unit. Yeah, he was. So maybe it's knowledge is not the measuring stick so much as commitment. And because the other thing is the Ethiopian eunuch knew a little bit about the gospel, but he also very clearly had some kind of devout walk with God. So we can't really say that for sure. But the Philippian jailer, let's say. Yeah, I mean, like, not. Not a lot of knowledge there, so that doesn't matter. But you notice those are adults. Those are people who could say, all right, I'm on board with this, and I'm gonna make it my life. And so, yeah, I mean, putting a number on it, like 16, that's kind of hard. On the other hand, I think I've said before, and so what, we can move on from this. I do trend a little higher than the 10, 11, 12, 13. But my kids aren't that age yet. I mean, I might. But we'll see. We'll see when things come around. So the deep thinkers really brought it with the hot takes. Got us debating, got us dancing a little bit. So appreciate you guys with those. What? We have a few quick hit ones before we get out of here. And I think, Joe, you're on top of that one. [00:54:04] Speaker C: Okay, we got overrated. Underrated. Just getting fast takes here, fellas. Okay, we need to. [00:54:10] Speaker B: We need to define this a little bit first. Like, when we say, oh, know something's overrated, we're not saying it stinks. We're not saying, right, right, right. So kind of it's. Define that. [00:54:20] Speaker C: So, yes, the overrated would be like, it is held up to a degree that is. You know, that sounds horrible of Scripture, because we are going to do Bible books on this, but kind of like, we talk about it a ton and maybe not other stuff as much as we should. Whereas underrated, it's like, we don't talk about this enough. There are so many things that. That are in this book that we need to be talking about more. So that's kind of where it's coming from. [00:54:43] Speaker A: More of how are we adding a place on these properly rated? Like, over, under, or just right? [00:54:47] Speaker B: Or is it. [00:54:48] Speaker C: I think just right? No, I think just right is okay. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:54:51] Speaker C: Because a couple of these I put as that. But I'm curious. Overrated. Underrated. Maybe you're just right. The book of Job. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Jack. Underrated. You forget how long it is. Like, it's kind of, okay, everything happens at the first. He loses it, and his wife turns on him and his friends show up. But those dialogues go on and on and on. And then, of course, God shows up at the end. And so I think mostly we think about the first five or six chapters of the book and the last two or three, and there's. It's really long. There's a lot there. [00:55:24] Speaker A: My answer was also underrated. I think, though, that three or four, however long it is, chapter stretch where God speaks. Evans. All right, Job, you had your turn. It's my turn here. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:32] Speaker A: I think that's. Those are some of the most powerful chapters in the entire Old Testament, as God is basically putting Job in his place to a degree and kind of really detailing his power and just, you know, the overall story of Job I love a lot. So I would. I would say underrated as well. [00:55:47] Speaker C: Yeah. I set myself on this one. I would say. I would say just right. This was the book I was thinking was just right in the fact that we do spend a lot of time on. As you talked about, Jack, certain parts of Job, we'd probably need to spend more time on the other parts. But as much time as we spend on the book of Job, there are a lot of parts that are like, what? Just. I don't know if you want to call them dry, the dialogues back and forth with their friends. I don't know that they're dry as much as they're just okay, you know, are they wallowing? Are they not? Like there's a reason for them. I don't really fully know why. We have, like, 30 chapters of that back and forth. There is a reason for it. I know there's good studies out there and such, but it's a little bit difficult to understand for that reason, we do spend time on Job. I just feel like we don't spend time on those parts. And so I feel like it's just right. Maybe a little more. We spend a little like this Sounds terrible. Those parts, those 30 chapters are underrated. The other 10 are almost overrated in terms of how much we discuss those. Which sandwich is in the middle of. Just right is kind of what I'd say. Next one, the Book of Jude. Will you go first on this one, then? I'll go first. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I know. Y'all yalls answer. [00:56:53] Speaker B: It can't really be overrated. [00:56:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Like, I can't. It. [00:56:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Because the reason why I put this on there is you are getting. And maybe I should have done Revelation. Yeah. We'll do Revelation instead of Jude because Jude kind of goes into it. Yeah, I'll call an audible because Jude has some very interesting things that I think people do, but maybe not in the average church, but you do started getting into it where people like, it's one chapter, is it? Well, I think it's underrated, but. And I imagine that would be the consensus here, but somebody get into it. So let's do Revelation. [00:57:23] Speaker A: If you're doing Revelation, I'll say underrated. I mean, there's not a lot of sermons going around about Revelation. Yalls class was excellent. First class I'd ever sat through about Revelation. So I'll, I'll give you all the Revelation portion of this podcast here. And I'll say underrated. [00:57:36] Speaker B: It's weird. It depends on what your view of it is. Like, it's either exactly. Wildly overrated because some people just look to it for everything and like it's the, the roadmap to the world or if you don't, you know, kind of the amillennial and maybe even post millennial views, it's kind of underrated. It's kind of like, ah, well, it's stuff that happened back in like 300 A.D. so that's kind of it. And you move on. Like, like, no, there's still some impactful stuff and I think that'd be the wrong interpretation. So I'd say in the churches of Christ generally, I agree with Will. It's underrated. Joe. [00:58:06] Speaker C: Okay, I was actually gonna go with overrated. Underrated from that perspective, overrated from the other. I was just looking at the, the drones in New Jersey. [00:58:13] Speaker B: What's going on? [00:58:14] Speaker C: Yeah, nobody really knows. And here we go with the Revelation. And I saw at least 2 to 3 comments of this is in the Book of Revelations. Like, okay, all right, guys, you know, that's. It's Revelation and that's not what's happening here. But they very much so. It's like everything that goes wrong. Let's whip out the Book of Revelation and figure out how it fits. That's how it's overrated. But yes, from a partial predator's point of view type of thing, it's very underrated because I think it does open up a lot of the New Testament when you start looking at. Looking at it through that lens. So, okay, next, one Book of Ruth and I'll go on this one. Go back and forth. I, I was going to say overrated on this, but the more I study root, the more I love it. So I'm Going to say just right. Just right. In this one you say you can't. [00:58:55] Speaker A: Say just right for two. Sorry. Gotta. [00:58:57] Speaker C: Okay, okay. I think it's overrated. Overrated, okay. There are some really good points to Ruth, by and large. We spend a lot and talk about Ruth or we spend time, you know, referencing the book and such. We don't really ever, like, hardly any class ever goes into the Kinsman Redeemer and what all that's about and kind of the background. So. So that part, if you actually get into it, that's fantastic. But most of the time we talk about Ruth as a, you know, this great love story and kind of leave it at that. And that to me makes it overrated. Like you're missing the point. So from that it's kind of the same as Revelation, which is underrated in certain ways, but overrated in the way that we handle it. [00:59:38] Speaker A: I'm going to use my. Just right here. That was going to be my answer, but I haven't used that yet. So I'm going to say just right. I mean, there's a lot of really good stuff in Ruth, but to your point, kind of the narrative side of it that gets kind of blown up about Boaz and Ruth, like, you know, and that's, that's a cool part of the Bible is that you sure, you know, people love romance stories and that kind of thing. And that there is a good one in Ruth and so that I don't want to take away from that or denigrate that. I think that's really cool. But yeah, I'll say just right. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll go with the same. [01:00:04] Speaker C: Okay, Lame. All right. Then again, that was all three of us. Book of James. I thought this might be an interesting one. The Book of James. Overrated or underrated, man, that's hard. [01:00:18] Speaker A: That's, that's tough. And we've all used our just right, so none of us can. None of us can. [01:00:22] Speaker B: It's incredibly popular, but that doesn't mean it's overrated. Right? I mean, like it's, it's very useful. Go ahead, Will. [01:00:32] Speaker A: I'll go. I'm gonna say underrated. Believe it or not. I know overrated, like to Jack's point, seems like the, the Vegas favorite here, as they say, because it is so popular. I think the reason that's the underrated is because people treat it kind of like, kind of like the proverbs of like, here's a bite sized verse, here's this, here's like kind of like separated things. And if you study the book of James. I mean, a lot of these things are inherently related that he's. It's not quite like Paul, where you can see he's building out a point over two or three chapters. It's obviously not like that, but it is fun for me specifically, I think of chapter one to kind of go through, okay, why does he go to this? And then why does he go to this? And I think you can really get into the text there and see why is he making that connection and why is that there? I think the faith without works discussion when paired with Romans 4 is fascinating. Again, not to just use it as a bite side. Oh, faith about works is dead. Okay. No, how does that, how does that fit with Romans 4? And how does that fit with what Paul was teaching in the, in the book, Whole book of Romans? I think that's a fascinating discussion. Again, if you remove just the bite size approach to it. So I'm going to say underrated. I mean, there's. It's. It's a really, really good book. [01:01:35] Speaker C: Book. I'm going to take the Martin Luther answer and say overrated. I figured, yeah, I think it's. I think it's overrated. You know, I was studying with Alyssa. She was. They were doing a women's Bible study and I was studying alongside her and showing her some of my notes. And. And she, she's very good at Bible study and getting a lot better. And so she was showing me some of her stuff. Like, that's really cool. I'm reading some books on it and whatnot. By and large, though, James is a tough one for me to get into some of those. You're right. Some of this does have a theme throughout. There are other parts that are like, what are you talking about? It is difficult to follow at certain times in the book where he just pivots to something and getting a through line is really difficult. Whereas Paul really, as you said, builds a thought, John builds a thought. You can see the thread throughout James. I have a tough time seeing the thread. The other thing of James is, I do think he's. Obviously, it's a exposition on Sermon on the Mount in so many ways, but I think it is a. Since it's the earliest book of the Bible, earlier it's written rather of the New Testament. A lot of Jewish problems, you know, the not judging your brother. He says some tough statements of like, well, just don't judge. Don't. Don't judge at all. Like, yeah, but there is. He never really clarifies on the righteous judgment thing, which we can get more from the, the Sermon on the Mount, but I think he could have done a better. And I know I'm critiquing a, a, you know, the way that God wrote the Bible, but, like, it would have. [01:02:52] Speaker A: Been what I would have done. [01:02:54] Speaker C: This is what I would. [01:02:55] Speaker B: It would have been a few pointers here for you, James. [01:02:58] Speaker C: Sit down, James. [01:02:59] Speaker A: I know you had the Holy Spirit inspiring you, but. [01:03:01] Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, it would have been helpful to expound. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Would he have gotten the gold medal? [01:03:06] Speaker A: Oh, man. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Winner. [01:03:09] Speaker A: So, yeah, we can't, we can't critique this. Everybody just gets the same. All books are exactly the same. [01:03:13] Speaker B: That's right. [01:03:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Hey, well, there you go. There you go. Yeah. I don't know. I, I, There are things I love about James, and there are things that are just challenging for me and challenging to get through and not challenging in a difficult to understand way as much as, like, I don't exactly know what he's going for here. And, you know, the judging, and he seems to genuinely have an issue with rich people. And you go, no. Well, that's just the judging of the. No, he. [01:03:39] Speaker B: You read it again, that might be a you problem. [01:03:42] Speaker C: I think it is. But does it not come across in that way? Now, I know he's inspired by the word or he's inspired by the spirit, so he doesn't. But at the same time, when you read it, that's what I'm saying. When you read James, it comes across as though that's the issue. So there's a lot more deeper study as to understanding how he gets there. But as much as we discuss it, we don't really get into the context. [01:04:01] Speaker A: I feel like if it wasn't so talked about and preached on Joe, you'd probably say underrated. But it's just because it is so broadcasted across the board and it's a. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Lot of some people's favorite book. [01:04:11] Speaker C: All right. [01:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm, I, I didn't think, I don't think I gave a thing. [01:04:13] Speaker A: You did not give an answer. [01:04:14] Speaker C: You did not give an answer. [01:04:15] Speaker B: I'm not allowed to say. I shouldn't use that properly on, on Ruth. I'll say Ruth is underrated. James is properly rated. [01:04:21] Speaker A: Oh, come on. You gotta give. [01:04:22] Speaker C: Come on. Come on. [01:04:24] Speaker B: It's a good book. It's, you know. Yeah. Because Joe said overrated. I'm, I'll go with underrated. There you go. So, all right. [01:04:35] Speaker C: Two to underrated, one to overrated. All right. [01:04:37] Speaker B: Do we have any more books no. [01:04:39] Speaker A: Those are all the books. Got four songs. [01:04:40] Speaker C: Those are all the books. Where at this point, we probably should wrap it up because we're going to go into more. We could do one more Bible book. I'll throw out another one and then we'll wrap it up at 5. Let's do the Book of Jonah. [01:04:54] Speaker B: Underrated. [01:04:55] Speaker A: Underrated. [01:04:56] Speaker C: Underrated. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Okay. [01:04:57] Speaker C: That was easy. That was easy. [01:05:00] Speaker B: Very nice. [01:05:00] Speaker C: Well, we'll wrap it up on a. Yeah. On a note where we all agree we did have a couple other ones to get to, but with the time and everything else we can do in the deep end. [01:05:07] Speaker A: Maybe. [01:05:08] Speaker C: Maybe in the deep end. Yeah. If we want to. So. [01:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:10] Speaker C: Well, this has been fun, guys. [01:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:12] Speaker C: Good lively discussion. [01:05:13] Speaker A: Happy holidays to everybody. [01:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah. And thank everybody. Thank you to everybody who submitted some really good ones in there. Got us going there. [01:05:20] Speaker B: So it's good for sure. Yeah. Great hot takes. And again, if. Wherever you're hearing this or whether on Facebook or whatever, if you've got a response, if we messed up the blind rankings real bad, we'll put that out. If we. [01:05:32] Speaker A: We need to do that again. That was a really good idea, Jack. [01:05:34] Speaker B: That was fun. That was very challenging. The hot takes. Tell us where you stand on those. I mean, yeah, just lots of fun stuff. Again, we didn't want to be too serious or. Or plan something. Been super deep for the holidays here in Christmas, so Merry Christmas to everybody and Happy New Year. We'll be back next Monday before the New year, briefly with an episode, and we'll kind of be more back to normal with that one. But, yeah, just been a great, blessed year. Hope it's a very blessed holidays for you guys. We're thankful for all of our listeners and. And everybody who's supported the show for the last. Unbelievably for almost three full years now. So Lord willing, we'll keep it going and we'll talk to you guys next week. [01:06:11] Speaker C: It.