Troubleshooting Weak Worship

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to think deeper podcast. I'm Jack Wilke, joined by Joe Wilke and Will Harab. We are changing gears. We were going to Q and a week, maybe two weeks of Q and A, and we're very excited about that. But we got so much interesting feedback on our music and worship and singing episode last week on focus plus from our subscribers there that we started, you've heard us talk about, we do our deep end episodes on Friday where we respond to comments and we're looking at that like this is an hour and a half worth of content. And so it's just going to be an episode. And so we've got more to talk about, more specifics about the, about just everything around music and worship and singing and all that. And so just great comments coming in if you want to join in on that focus. Plus, we tell you about all the time. Just check us out on Patreon. You get that and a lot of other perks that as, as we've told you about numerous times. So be sure and check that out. But let's go ahead and just keep on rolling with the discussion. The outline has kind of been given to us by the comments and what the commenters had to say, so we're just going to take those and respond. So consider this also kind of like a deep end sample, I guess. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. Would you guys say this was one of our more reacted to episodes? Obviously, it's not near number one, but like top five. I mean, this was as far as sort, certainly Patreon, I feel like everybody has an opinion on this and it's one that gets typically a lot of reaction anytime it's discussed anywhere. [00:01:35] Speaker C: How many do we get on YouTube and Facebook? I didn't even check. Did we, do we have some, we. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Got a few on YouTube, Facebook a little bit, but not much, oddly. [00:01:44] Speaker C: Well, Jack, you made this point in the deep end from this last week that I thought was interesting, which is we all go to church. I didn't think about this. But of course, we all go to church. We speak to Church of Christ people. So everybody's going to have a take on this because every time you walk in, every worship service on a Sunday, Sunday night and you're singing two or. [00:02:02] Speaker B: Three times a week. Yeah. [00:02:04] Speaker C: Correct. And so you're going to have some, some idea about this, right? Some opinion on this. And so, yeah, I think it just brought people out. We got a lot of really good comments. And, fellas, any, any other introductory before we jump right in? All right. One of the comments we got, I think a big part of this conversation is trying to discern where the intersection is between emotions and spirituality. Are they both different sides of the same coin, or should we even tie them together at all? Emotions and spirituality, fellas, what are your thoughts on that? That's a very interesting question. Are they part of the same coin? Should we tie them together at all? This idea of emotions and spirituality as it pertains to instruments, as it pertains to musical worship, things like that, I. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Think emotion like can be because we struggle to know what real spirituality is, because we lack that so much in such materialist world that we can mistake emotion for spirituality, if that makes sense. Like, oh, I'm feeling something emotional. I'm feeling something deep down that is, I can't put a finger on. It's not, you know, one of the five senses. This must be spirituality. It's like, it's kind of part of it. Emotions and spirit there. There's an overlap there, but it's not one and the same thing. And the way I think it's getting played up in some of these conversations. [00:03:18] Speaker C: Well, let me read this real fast because, and I forgot to continue in this comment a little bit because he had, or he adds a little bit on because he says, you know, touched on this a little bit in the episode. It seems to be that many who advocate for instrumental music and worship often approach it from a place of the emotional side, but to the detriment of actual spirituality. It's like Satan is tricking them into thinking they are being spiritual simply because it makes them feel good. On the other hand, those who advocate for no instruments are often devoid of emotion, and spirituality still suffers. I think this goes even deeper than our worship, though. He goes on to make a great point about this being an outgrowth of culture. It's not really raising our kids in a musical culture. We're not singing to them and things like that. And so says this bleeds over into the church, where less and less people feel comfortable singing out or even singing at all. It's just sad to me. If we want to disciple our kids, we have to start young. It's no different with teaching them how to raise their voice and to praise God. And praise to God. I could go on and on with this one, but I won't, he says. But that's just a little background, a little more on that question concerning emotion and spirituality. [00:04:19] Speaker B: So I've got two thoughts on that one going back to the emotion intersecting with spirituality. This is actually being fully vulnerable here with the deep thinkers. This is a struggle of mine, in a sense of, like, I feel like so much of my life is, you know, my work. And, like, the way that I try to look at things and view the world is so focused on the hard facts of it, the logic of it. I feel like emotion can just be used to the detriment of so many things. I mean, you look at a lot of the sexual orientation stuff, like, well, I love that person. Well, do you actually, or is that just an emotion or the transgender stuff? Or just a lot of the problems I feel like in our world have to do with people listening too much to their emotions. We just had a therapy episode a few weeks ago here on think deeper, where we discussed some of that. And so I guess I say that to say, I tend to lean away from letting emotion drive any kind of, like, I guess if the strongest argument for a certain thing is emotion, I tend to look at that as a pretty weak argument. Like, you need to have something more than emotion that's backing up your argument. I think that absolutely does apply to instruments with music. At the same time, obviously, we talked about it last week. I do think there are a lot of members of the Church of Christ. There are a lot of church buildings on Sunday morning where you look around and there is zero emotion in the singing. Sometimes in the prayers, in the partaking of the Lord's supper, uh, maybe you get a little bit of emotion from the sermon, but, like, for the most part, it is an emotionless hour where you're sitting there, you know, doing it. Cause you feel like you're supposed to. And. Yeah, I mean, obviously, I believe in logic. I believe in truth. I believe that, you know, there's hard facts behind these things. You gotta have some level of emotion. Same thing with same thing. Um, you know, if I'm talking to my wife, and all day, 24/7 you know, every single time I talk to my wife, it's all logic, it's all facts, it's all, it's all, uh. There's no emotion. We're not gonna have the greatest connection if I don't ever, you know, show emotion or let her show emotion if it's all logic and facts. And so I say all that to say that I agree with. I think he, I think he makes a great point. I think our commenter here makes a great point. Um, in the sense of the. The too much emotion can be used to kind of abuse it. However, the no emotion can be used in a negative sense as well. Um, yeah, I had another thought on that last part of the comment, but either one of y'all have anything to add to that? [00:06:44] Speaker A: Well, you know, I think with so much modern art, just briefly, um, with so much modern art, it, like, it makes no sense. It's just garbage kind of thrown on a page. And I think it's kind of the same thing. When you just take emotion and just splash there, it doesn't make into anything. Whereas, like logic and borders, like you need lines on the page. But emotion is the colors. Without emotions, it's just black and white and black and white. Life has color and vibrancy to it. And you see that in the psalms. Like David's a very grounded person who's also a very emotional person. Your emotions, if they don't have lines, it can just spill into everything else and ruin it. But if it's within those lines, it's really something beautiful. [00:07:24] Speaker C: I was going to say the overly emotional kind of, I don't know, the community church that has the rock band up there, I think the emotion is for them, for the people. And the way we look at it is our worship is for God. It's not for us to glean anything from. Basically, it is all for God. And I don't think that's true. I think worship is intended to be both all glory and praise to the Almighty God. Right. While at the same time I think we can glean from that. I think it is intended to be uplifting. And anybody who would disagree with that, it's like go to a church with 5000 people singing. This is why people go to the big singings that are down here in the south. Or, or I know they have the big one. It's, oh, man, what's the one down in Oklahoma City affirming the faith, right? And this is have like a thousand people show up and sing and it's very moving and in those moments, it's okay for us to go. Interesting, huh? Wow, this, this does move me. Right. [00:08:14] Speaker B: It's not, there's an emotion here, right? [00:08:16] Speaker C: There's emotion here. And that's okay as long as there's, you know, we're, we're okay with that. But this is what they try to do with the instruments is they try to manufacture this emotion and they don't think about it for God's perspective. And to your point, Jack, there's a marrying of the two where it can be all, all for God. But the way that we're giving everything to God ought to elicit some emotion on our end. And if we're not giving everything to God and we're just kind of singing like this and very slow, we're not really giving him our best, and that will elicit no emotion on our part. And we can go away thinking, I did it right. I mean, I didn't work, use instruments, but the emotion was lacking. And we can tell ourselves, that's okay, because it's not for me. I'm not supposed to get emotion like, yeah, you are. [00:08:53] Speaker B: You are. [00:08:54] Speaker C: We're supposed to have that in there. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you something to both of you. Um, we talk about this a lot. What does that mean in practical terms? Does it mean, you know, it might just mean something as simple as, like, having a smile on your face, uh, during worship or whatever, but, like, what. What are we getting at? Where we're saying, okay, not that you're kind of talking about what it's not, and that's kind of the. Oh, man, the smoke machine and laser lights just made me feel a certain kind of way. Like, it's. [00:09:17] Speaker C: It. [00:09:17] Speaker A: It isn't that. And we've said, not the stone faced stoic, holy, holy, holy. You know? Like, it's not that, but so what do we mean? What. And again, we talked about, like, the. The big congregation. [00:09:29] Speaker B: Definitely not that. Jack. No, I'm just kidding. [00:09:30] Speaker C: Jack's got the gregorian chant going. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Hey, ain't nothing wrong with that, either. There's. I mean, let's get together and chant some psalms, but the shout out, my guy Titus, who let the dogma out, he'll teach us what to do. The. The question. And we talk about, like, the thousands of people singing. Okay, most of us don't have that. And so, like, if you need that to get emotional, you're not going to have that. And so what are we talking about here? [00:09:53] Speaker B: So I'll go first, Joe, then you take over here. I think you gotta. You mentioned a smile on your face. You gotta have a. You gotta have a joyful spirit with it. And I think that is exuded by smile. I think that's exuded by, you know, are you just sitting there, like, just literally looking like a statue, or are you. You know, I love it when we stand and sing because, you know, you get your blood flowing a little bit more. [00:10:16] Speaker C: There's. [00:10:16] Speaker B: There's more going on there. But I just also think volume is just. Is a simple one as well. And I know there's a lot of people that I don't have the best voice or, man, I sound bad or I don't want to be a distraction, man. I do feel like for the most part, I would much rather you lean into, hey, I'm going to sing to God. I'm not going to be, you know, kind of ashamed of my voice, looking around like, okay, who's looking at me? No, just, just sing. There needs to be some level of, you know, volume to where I feel like people are so focused on, can other people hear me? Do I sound good enough? And just sing. Just, just sing joyfully. Just sing. Just be happy to sing. I was going to ask this, Joe, before you give your answer, because I think it might tie into it. [00:10:57] Speaker C: You. [00:10:58] Speaker B: I don't think I'm outing you here. You have come out and said you are not the biggest fan of singing. You personally do not enjoy it. It's not really your thing. And so it hit me as I was, as I was reading David's comment. And so if you want to address this, and then also Jack's question, because I'm curious your thoughts as well, but how he talks about it bleeds over into the church where less and less people feel comfortable singing or even singing out or singing at all. It's just sad. I do feel like maybe I'm just, you know, thinking about the congregations that I've been to before. I feel like singing might be one of the more under underappreciated, underutilized aspects of worship. It feels like sometimes we just, you know, we got to sing our token six songs, two before the opening prayer, one before the Lord's supper, one before the less, like. It's a checklist. It's a checklist basically. There is not a lot of, you know, not a lot of getting together to sing or to just sing. There's not a lot of, I guess, joy with singing. And so it is treated as like a, let's check off our active worship box here. Let's get some singing done and then we'll move on. You read the psalms. Jesus and his disciples, they sang a hymn right before Jesus was about to go get betrayed. Pretty big part of being a person of God is singing and praise to God. And I do feel like it's a, it's pretty underutilized, pretty underemphasized. Not in every congregation, but in a lot of congregations. And I do want wonder if we, if we did it more and if we were more passionate about it, if that would just be infectious and kind of this emotionless, joyless problem that we're talking about would kind of take care of itself. So what are your thoughts on that? And then, of course, Jack's question as well, Jeff. [00:12:29] Speaker C: So I actually think our commenter makes a fantastic point of raising kids to be more musical. Kids a lot of times are just musical if you get them into. I see it with our kids, right. My wife pulls out the kinder liar, pulls out the piano, whatever it is, and. And we'll do songs, and they just love it and they gravitate toward it, and they want to sing along with us when we sing our songs at night. And so kids are musical, and I think we didn't, as a family, really get into that very much. And so we were. My dad always said he's more on the consumption and not production and music. And we listen. I mean, my dad had back in the day, like 10,000 songs on his ipod when nobody had that, right. I mean, he's just a music file, I think what he call it, but in an audio file. But we didn't really know how to make music. We weren't very musically inclined, musically gifted. And I think that did lead toward, I am fine listening to music, the consumption, and I don't like being a part of it. And yet I think you have a lot of people growing up that way where they're more on the consumption and not producing. And so I think if we did a better job with parents, raising our kids to really appreciate music, to sing out, we would have a lot more singing. We would have a lot more times, like you're talking about will, where it's like, let's just break out and song. But you see, that's a young person's thing. We always break out. And the only times where we really get emotional is when it's Jesus is my boyfriend songs. The Devo songs. I just have a tough time with those. You know, we gotta have a debate. [00:13:46] Speaker B: On that at some point, because I think I disagree with you on that. [00:13:48] Speaker C: Oh, man. I just have a really tough time with some of those, like. But that's where we do get emotional. That's where you get the kids kind of singing. [00:13:55] Speaker B: They sound better. [00:13:56] Speaker C: Sorry. Oh, well. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Can do his Devo songs. Joe can do his four parts, and I'll just be over here chanting. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:14:07] Speaker B: Well, Joe's not even a fan of four parts, remember? Okay, never mind. Sorry. I'm not a. [00:14:12] Speaker C: Not a big fan of it. Well, I feel like. Yeah, that's the only time you really start to see it, though, is in these Devo settings. I would love for the church to be able to get together more is coming from a guy who. I don't really like singing. I think there is power in it, but if it's done correctly. So, Jack, you asked about the emotion. There have been times where, like, you'll sing it as well. With my soul in there, is. There's a couple sins at church that you can't do. I'm just gonna. I'm being facetious with sins, but skipping a verse on it as well with my soul is one of them. You cannot do that. And yet I've seen it done. And, you know that second part of my sin or the bliss of this glorious thigh? My sin. Not a part, but the whole has been nailed across. I mean, there have been times in church where it's just tears start flowing. Like, man, that is power, right? And then the third verse comes in, and I. It's kind of rolling. It's like, this is what. It's what it's about. So I think part of the emotion is just seeing people engage with the lyrics. And this is something I'm bad at, is I'm so busy trying to. And this is why the four parts kind of frustrate me, is I'm so busy figuring out game I avoid. Am I a bass? My tenor? Definitely a bass, but I don't really know the bass part in this song. Okay. I'm trying to follow along, and next thing you know, it's like, what did I just sing? I got to the fourth verse. I'm finally paying attention to lyrics because I finally got where I'm supposed to go up and down. That can be such a distraction that I miss the entire point of the song. So engaging with the lyrics and what that actually means to us is a great way, in my opinion, to show a lot more emotion and to realize, like, wow, some of these songs are incredibly moving. Our God is alive. When these things start rolling along, like, there ought to be just a pump of the fist type of thing. I think that's a way to show emotion as well. And you see a lot of people that are too glued to trying to get the harmony just right. I. That we forget that there are really powerful words to these. I think it need to be said. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Maybe not. I'm not trying to disagree with you. I think it's less of that and just more. They've sung them their whole life, so they don't think about them. They're just, you know, kind of mindlessly doing it. [00:16:05] Speaker C: That could be true, too. Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker A: You know, Jack, you remember, like, a couple years ago is this really weird trend that lasted for, like, two weeks, where shanties, like. Like old sailor songs was, like, a huge trend. Spotify and YouTube. And, like, I think the main appeal of that is men singing. And so, like, I think that is a big part of it as well, is that a lot of times men were very self conscious. It doesn't feel very masculine to, like, really sing out with your chest. And to your point, Joe, some of the songs are not very masculine to sing because of the words of them are very, as you said, boyfriend Jesus kind of songs. And so. Yeah, like, I get that, but as you said, our God, he is alive or whatever. Like, yeah, sing out. Yeah, have that behind you. And there's a real power and beauty to that as well, in that this isn't just for women. It's not just for kids. In fact, the men are just as much in it as. As the rest. And so it does take everybody, which goes to our point from the last episode of it, everybody brings something. And if as a man, you're just. You're kind of more reserved. And as you said, joe, well, it's not really for me. I think there's a lot of guys that take that approach. And, you know, this is not to you, but to maybe guys that are this way. You still got to do it, like you said. [00:17:16] Speaker C: That's right. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:18] Speaker C: I find myself, I just sing. I just sing the melody. If I can't hit the harmony and I can't get down to the bass, there are songs where I know the bass backwards for that set out. I've heard it and I've sung it, and that's okay if I don't. My job is not to just go quiet. Well, I guess I can't really quite, like, I'll just sing the melody. Is it the best thing ever? No, but our job is to sing whether we like it or not. And the more we do that, I think it inspires those around us to. And I've said this before, but, like, you go over to. Went over to Africa, went over to Ghana, and we went to church with 700. And my goodness, the singing is so powerful. These people can care less about four part harmony. Would it be nice for a four part? Yeah, I imagine it would. I'm sure with 700 people doing that, it was powerful. Everybody's singing out. Guy can't carry a tune in a buck of man, he's powerful. And, man, he's singing about Jesus with his entire heart. Like, that matters way more than the guy who can hit every bass note. But he's singing like this and you can barely hear him, like. And that matters way more, even though we can't carry two in the bucket. So, yeah, I think we need to get used to the idea of singing out and what that actually means and why it's important. [00:18:18] Speaker B: There was one of those annoying Facebook posts that gets shared a thousand times across, you know, people's timelines. This one I did agree with, though, it was one of those where it talked about, you know, a sure sign of a healthy church is if you look around and the men are singing. I do agree with that, because I would find myself frustrated looking around at young people who either a would not be singing, which is not uncommon. That happens a lot, or be barely moving their lips and you gotta squint to see if they're actually singing. Well, it's really hard to kind of get upset at that when you look at their dad in the same pew who's doing the exact same thing. Can't hear them barely moving their lips. Completely zoned out, man. Jack, I'm really glad you brought that up, because if you're a man, specifically husband, father, someone who's leading your family and your children and your spouse are looking to you, and that's the way that you are worshiping God in a very lackluster, couldn't care less type of sense, that's exactly what your kids are going to do. That's exactly what your sons are going to do when they worship God. And it's just one of those things that, to me, is flatly unacceptable for anybody, of course, but specifically a man leading your family. Man, sing out. Do not be one of these people that just kind of sits there and. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Mumbles through the words well into the commenters point. That starts at home. I mean, pick yourself up a family worship guide. Uh, the will wrote it out. [00:19:35] Speaker C: Well, yeah, there you go. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Practice, uh, if you need to get the. The practice started. Um, because it just gets way easier at church when you do it at home. [00:19:42] Speaker C: And. [00:19:43] Speaker A: And it's so cool, you know, my kids don't know the whole songbook, but you'll see even the two year old perk up, like, I know this one, and start singing in church because we do it at home. And it's like, yeah, that's. That's great. I mean, like, that's. It's really exciting. But, man, you should just see at home, like, the rousing rendition of Zacchaeus that we have to sing every single night because it's my two year old boy's favorite song, but like, it. Yeah. And again, you take that energy into church, and as a man, like, I'm transferring that to them, and I. So I've got to bring that energy, and if I don't have it, they won't either. And so, you know, I love what the commenter had to say about, like, really think about your kids. And again, the example you're setting, as will just said, like, they're not. If you don't sing, they're not going to either. [00:20:23] Speaker C: I taught the kids, humble yourself. I taught them the, you know, chant, like the behind. [00:20:30] Speaker B: Pretty sure that's a devo song, joe. [00:20:32] Speaker A: That's in the 900s, isn't it? [00:20:34] Speaker C: But it's not a Jesus boyfriend song. So. Yeah, no, that's okay. But no, they. I love getting to hear them as they're kind of repeating. And I would encourage people sing those songs where the kids can kind of repeat after you. Songs like that. What's the, uh. It's the shema, but hero Israel. Um. Lord thy God is one God. Thou shalt have the Lord thy God with all thy heart. And then you go. [00:20:56] Speaker B: They repeat it, is what it's called. [00:20:57] Speaker C: Is it hero Israel? Yeah, man, they love that one. Every night. They wanted to sing that one. And so it, you know, it's got a little bit of role and everything else, but they can repeat after it. And so it's just a great way to get kids involved. And I really want to get our kids to be, as Jack's talking about, to be more musical where they're not, where my boys aren't ashamed of their voice or anything like that. Not to say they're going to grow. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Up, but, like, the Devo songs of is what I picked up out of that. [00:21:19] Speaker C: I'm not against every Devo song. I'm against. I'm. I'll go through, you know, what we'll do in the deep end is I'll take out a songbook and go down every 900 and rip out every page, I think. No, just kidding. Just kidding. [00:21:29] Speaker B: But goodness, Thomas Jeff style. There you go. [00:21:32] Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly. The Joe Wilkie songbook here. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Hey, guys, Jack Wilkie here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like think deeper and godly young men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's focuspress.org donate. Thanks again for listening. [00:21:57] Speaker C: Guys. We're not even through the first comment. Well, yeah, we better start rolling. He says, okay. As someone who can read and understand written music, it is really distracting to be in the worship when it isn't done correctly. I'm not talking about minor things. I mean things like when the song leader doesn't bother to pitch the song correctly, turns a joyful song into a dirge or sings a melody, and it's completely different than the notes on the page. I think the first and last of these three things actually has the effect of preventing people from worshiping. If a song is too low or too high, then not everyone can sing it. If some of us are reading the notes on the page and it doesn't match the melody of the song leader, that's just chaos. Seeing a song too slow, I guess, is more of an opinion on my part, but I think it speaks to the point of doing things in a way that makes them less spiritual than they could be. That's a great point. That's a great, great point. I've seen this one done, had this happen the other day, and, you know, it's an accident, but it's one of those lord is my shepherd. There are two versions of that. You want to make sure you get the right version. I have done that as a song leader where I thought, and I don't read music, and so I'm not as good on it, and that's why I don't lead songs, and it was in a pinch. That's the most embarrassing thing you can do, and it's not. Luckily, that was on a Sunday night with not very many people there. But, yeah, not a mistake you want to make, especially on a Sunday morning. We want to check on those things. But I talked about it before the oh, happy day. Like, no, no, no, we're not singing oh, happy day at funeral dirge. And that's kind of the way the song is written, which is stupid, but come on, get a little tempo, right, if you're going to sing this. And the other thing that gets me, while we're kind of going off on this, when it talks about quieting the verse or going slower on a verse and then kind of picking it up, like, we have to read the musical notations. Like I said, I don't read music, but I know. I know enough to know, like, when we get quiet, when a crescendo is right, when we get loud, those things matter. And those things really do bring heart and emotion to the music. And so getting those things right, it's important, I think, for us to have song leaders that are paying attention to musical notations as we go and whatnot. But, yeah, I think he makes some great points specifically on those three and pitching it correctly as well. I do think that pitch pipe, things like that, it's so simple and it's so handy to get it right. [00:24:01] Speaker B: This is why I do believe pretty strongly in the role of a song leader. I mean, I've talked to people who are like, ah, that's not really an important thing. We should just, you know, even have a song leader and just whoever can start a song. And I do think there needs to be some kind of order, some kind of, you know, decently in an ordered structure to it where it isn't just a, you know, bunch of people singing at all kinds of different pitches. And I do think that we can place too much of an emphasis on how good it sounds or, you know, is everything just perfect? And that's not really the point of it. It is, you know, the point is to worship God in song and to, um, you know, as we talked about, um, you know, singing make melody with our hearts at the same time. I would agree with our commenter here that, you know, when, when a song is pitched correctly, when the tempo is. Is correct, it does seem like it is more. Yeah, there's more emotion. It goes back to the previous comic. It affects you a little bit more. It is the way the song was written, all these things. So I wouldn't get too caught up on it, but I definitely would agree that those things are important. Jack. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I'm the least technically proficient guy in the world, but I think we can all appreciate it when it's done. Well, like, you do notice it, so not a lot to add there. [00:25:14] Speaker C: Can it go overboard, just out of curiosity, think. Can it. Can it go overboard from a song leader's perspective? [00:25:19] Speaker A: Well, I was off before we got on recording. I was telling will about a time when Joe and I were kids, this church, we were. We only went there one time, just visiting some friends, but it wasn't far from our house. And as a Sunday night, and in the middle of the first chorus, the song leader yelled over everybody, stop, stop, stop, stop. You guys are dragging. You're not getting it right. Let's try this again and get it right. He started the song again, and apparently. [00:25:46] Speaker B: It was a coach on a football field, man. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it was like that. [00:25:49] Speaker C: Whiplash movie or whatever. Yeah, yeah. [00:25:51] Speaker A: I mean, like, it was, it was shocking, and, yeah, it really took you out of the worship there. Cause it's like, I don't want to get yelled at again. So, like, let me make sure I'm looking at the right notes and all that. So, yeah, I mean, obviously that's an extreme example, but, you know, proficient, technically proficient is better than not. Yeah. Okay. [00:26:09] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. I agree that. All right, get us into. Jack, get us into the next comment. [00:26:14] Speaker A: I forgot which one you guys assigned me, actually. [00:26:17] Speaker C: Will. Sorry. I think will. [00:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:20] Speaker A: That's why you threw me off. Yeah, well, it was not my turn yet. Thanks, Joe. [00:26:24] Speaker B: All right, so our next commenter here says singing, or so singing, especially at our congregation, is something I really struggle with. I love my home congregation, but I per. I personally get way more out of a singing when it is a larger congregation. Maybe this is a hard issue, but slow singing, that feels like we're at a funeral. How can that be pleasing to God? Um, that's kind of the first section. There is a. Another question or two attached to this one, but we'll start with that. Somewhat. Already hit on this. But, guys, that. I mean, what's interesting about this. [00:26:56] Speaker C: Is it pleasing? [00:26:58] Speaker B: Well, what's interesting about this, too, is that all three of us have argued very much in favor of smaller congregations or better, if a congregation gets too large, some of the eldering, some of the just other kind of logistical aspects of being a church family get very, very difficult. One of the things that does seem to get increasingly, it seems to there is a direct correlation with how good the singing sounds and how many members are at the congregation. Like, that is just kind of a realistic fact about it. And so, yeah, I think this is a good question. Slow scene. It feels like we're defining how can that be pleasing to God? Is the commenter asks, is this a hard issue that he or she just does not enjoy it as. And I guess they didn't technically say that, but says they get way more out of singing when it's a larger congregation. [00:27:43] Speaker C: I do agree. [00:27:45] Speaker B: And then maybe, Joe, again, we don't have to have this debate right now. This is why I do prefer something. I do prefer the. The newer I'm not home Devo songs. The newer songs. [00:27:56] Speaker C: Okay. The. The pierce my ear. Come on, man. No, that one's out. What? As my dad used to call it, pierce my nose. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:28:07] Speaker B: Well, side. [00:28:08] Speaker C: I can't handle that one. You're sorry? I'm side dragging you. [00:28:11] Speaker B: I was gonna say, you got a bone to pick with those. Funny, I don't. Ever sung a song that said Jesus was my boyfriend, but you kept calling it that. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Anyway, um, I there's one, it's not really popular. I don't know that ever got adapted to church of Christ Devo books, but it literally talks about some sloppy, wet kiss like that. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Never very popular churches. [00:28:30] Speaker C: Will was saying that all the time at his house. [00:28:32] Speaker B: Yeah. How's, you know. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But that was the one that kind of got the nickname going for that kind of thing, so. [00:28:38] Speaker C: Yes. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. But anyway, so the point is, I guess, on both. Both fronts there. Slow singing versus fast singing. Is it. Is it pleasing? You know, what are your thoughts on that? I'll open it up to one of you two first. [00:28:53] Speaker C: That's an interesting question on is it pleasing? Because obviously we don't know fully what's pleasing to God in this realm. I'd like to. I'd like to think that God is, you know, that he accepts it, because if he doesn't, then half of the. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Church of Christ, he's not sitting up there with a scorecard with our singing. Yeah, I'd like to think right. [00:29:14] Speaker C: At the same time, I think the better question might be, is it most pleasing to him? Like, is it pleasing for us to get together on a Sunday and sing songs to him? I'm sure it is to a certain degree. But I think that is a valid point because you could easily point to Isaiah one and be like, well, they were doing everything right, but their heart wasn't in it and clearly wasn't pleasing to God. But then, okay, 95% the heart is in it. Is it pleasing to God? But 5% aren't. [00:29:38] Speaker A: You know what I mean? [00:29:39] Speaker C: You can kind of get into semantics here. By and large, I think the question is valid in the fact that I don't think it's the most pleasing thing to God when we're making a funeral dirge out of songs that really should be sung in a joyful, positive man. We're. We're marching. You know what I mean? Like, we're. We're really pumping and we're getting ready to go. When we think of the worship service, and this is a side, but when you think of the worship service as getting the troops ready for the week, like, we are engaged in a spiritual battle. This is ephesians six, right? We're getting the troops ready. We're coming together. We're remembering why we're doing this. It's the Lord's supper, why we're here, why we're doing this, why this matters. And the song service is a way to encourage us to. Yes. It's a way to praise God, but it's also a way to get us ready for the battle that we're about to face. Like, when you think of it that way, that ought to change the trajectory. That ought to change the way that you approach worship to God. It's not like, ah, we kind of have to do this, I guess, because christians just do. It's like, no, we're coming together for a very specific reason, to get ready to go out and do amazing things for God this year or this weekend. Like, okay, now think about how you're going to approach the song service when that's what you're doing. When you get guys pumped for war, it's like, you know, when they're chanting or singing songs, whatever it is, like, okay, you look at Braveheart and he's getting them ready for the war. Like, all right, guys, let's go out to battle. Oh, happy day, right? We're marching to Zion. Like, no, no, no. We're pumping up, man. We're getting ready to go. So I think if we had a different understanding of why we were there in the first place, it would look different. [00:31:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think more than anything, it can just be evidence of just not a lack of self awareness. Kind of a weird way to put it. But, like, if you're leading a song that is meant to be a joyful, you know, like you said, pump the troops after war, whatever, and you're singing it like a funeral song, it shows you're not very engaged in the worship either as the song leader. But then obviously, the members, there's kind of supposed to follow the song leader. So. Yeah, I mean, I. Overall, Joe, I agree with you. I think just, it shows a lack of engagement. It shows a lack of self awareness to what are we actually singing? What are the words that we're saying right now? One thing that drives me nuts, let's sing stand up. Stand up for Jesus. And we sing it sitting down. You know, kind of. Kind of nitpicky, not all that important. But at the same time, it's like, okay, what am I singing right now? You know, stuff like that. I stand in all is another one. So, yeah, I just think being engaged and having that self awareness of understanding the lyrics and the things that you're singing and kind of making that a point of the worship is biggest. [00:32:06] Speaker A: Yeah. The, going back to the original question of is it pleasing to God? I mean, yeah. And there's part of it where it's, like, in the pew, it's not. You can't change the song service you're a part of. And so, like, if you're giving your best, and it also would not be helpful to, like, sing it, you know, higher tempo or whatever, like, or just come out way above everybody, try to speed everybody up. [00:32:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah, like that. [00:32:30] Speaker C: That's not either. [00:32:31] Speaker A: And so, like, you've got to fit in and your heart can be in the right place, but I know it can be distracting, so it's hard to get your heart in the right place. I get that. So, yeah, that's, that's a hard thing. And there's a lot of people in that situation. There's, you know, song leading. I know there used to be like, and there still are, like, song leading schools and stuff like that, but there's not always in these small, you know, I preached for small rural congregation in east Texas, and there was a guy that had been to a song leading school, and he was pretty good, knew his stuff, and he had tried to, you know, he'd helped a couple other guys there, like, taught them a little bit, but when he was gone, it was a noticeable step back, and that was pretty often. He hadn't even traveled for work and all that. And. Yeah, and so I've been in that situation, and, you know, I try not to be too self conscious. Offer your best and realize it's not entirely in your hands. And I, like you said, will, I don't think God is. I think this part is the part that is for us. Like, if your heart's in the right place, then it's pleasing to God. Yeah. You're not getting as much out of it, and that is unfortunate. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, I'm going to move us on here. Two more things with this comment. Commenter says with VBS. So, Jack, mean, you can just sit back on this one. Let Joe take it. Um, is it, uh, says, is it considered worship during the time of vbs where you sing, act funny, do skits, etcetera? I would think not. The commenter says, if it was, I feel like a lot of people's souls would be at stake if that was the case. You have kids, adults, male and female, doing skits, puppets, etcetera. So that would obviously be wrong. So would that mean if it's not worship or so would that mean it's not worship and therefore you could clap and sing and it'd be, okay, go for it, Joe. Just. Just go right ahead. [00:34:11] Speaker C: This make me laugh. [00:34:12] Speaker A: I think he's gonna say you answered your home question. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:15] Speaker C: This is exactly what I was gonna say you answered your own question. Like, is there a question to this, or am I supposed to answer something? [00:34:22] Speaker B: This. [00:34:23] Speaker C: That's my exact problem with bbs. Where does it fall? What is it? Is it. Is it worth. Well, we're. We're, you know, bringing kids in. Like, if it's worship, we're in big trouble. And what you win them with is what you win them, too. So they come in like, where's the clapping? Where's the, where's the marching for Jesus? Where's all this stuff? Like, oh, happy day. What in the world is this? Right? So, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Well, it's not worship, right? We can clap and we can have, you know, other people get up and lead and do all sorts of stuff. Then what are we doing here? If it's not that, then what are we doing? We're bringing kids in. It's not really worship, guys. So you're never going to get this the rest of the year. You're only going to get this for a week out of the year. This pseudo worship. Not really worship. Not really. Whatever it is, we'll turn a blind eye when it's clapping. It's fine. It's not worship. Like, come on, what are we doing here? [00:35:08] Speaker A: So, yeah, this charge from the Lord's army. [00:35:15] Speaker C: Oh, man. So, yeah, I agree. I mean, I agree that that's the question you have to ask about vbs is. And let me just say we saw some of the vbs is like Moses eras. I think we talked about that on the vbs. [00:35:26] Speaker B: My Taylor Swift one. Yeah, this is very. [00:35:30] Speaker C: Well, like a fine steak on our group text. [00:35:34] Speaker A: I'll say, these guys, every time I see a vbs post, and, yeah, Joe just can't get enough it on. [00:35:39] Speaker B: Oh, there's one where they're like, pine the preacher in the face or something in the middle of a VB. Like, what are we doing here? [00:35:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. But yes, as far as the worship goes. As far as the worship goes. That is the issue with it. Is. Is it worship? Is it not worship? It kind of depends. In each congregation, there's going to be one that says it's not, and they're going to justify it by saying, that's okay. And there's another that says it is. And the kids are going to be just as confused because they have no idea. They think it's worship. So we allow all sorts of ridiculousness in with the clapping and everything else that we would never allow for the rest of the year. But this is this time it's okay, because they're. I don't know. I don't know. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't have much to add. I would. I would agree with that. Jack, if you don't, I'm gonna go ahead and move us into this last one. That the con. This last paragraph from this, this one comment. Commenter says, also one time I had some ladies basically condemn me to hell because I said I listened to, quote unquote, church songs. Church songs with instruments. They said they are 100% of the time worshipping in their lives no matter what they're doing. So if someone listened to it, you're worshiping with instruments. What are your thoughts on this? Do you think we're worshipping all the time? Is this an example of the weaker brother? I think I made you all go first every time, so I guess I can go first on this one and then whoever wants to jump in next. I strongly disagree with the all of life is worship thing. And I think we did bring this up maybe a couple episodes ago, Jack. We went to romans twelve to look at the way the new american standard mistranslates that and the new king James has it correctly. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Just kidding. [00:37:08] Speaker A: But mind squirrel. [00:37:09] Speaker B: That's right. Sure. No, but I do disagree with that 100% of the time worshiping in your lives. No, you're not. Gimme a break. You are absolutely not. There are. There's lots of times throughout your day where you're not worshiping, no matter how much you want to say that you are. Worship has to be an intentional act. Worship has to be something that you are, in my opinion, setting your mind on and focusing on. I am worshiping right now. You're not doing that all the time. You're just not. And so, obviously, again, there are those who will use that. That line of reasoning to argue that you shouldn't listen to music with instruments in the car. And listen, I'm fine with people having that. That opinion of you shouldn't listen to christian music on the radio with instruments. I just think that's a very poor argument to use the worshiping all the time thing. And as far as condemning somebody to hell over that. Yeah, you probably should check your heart on that, if that. If that's something that you're willing to, you know, make a line of fellowship between you and your brother or sister. Overdose. Um, you know, whether or not you listen to, you know, Chris Tomlin or whatever on the radio, I I do personally, as we talked about last week, believe that to be a Romans 14, um, issue as was discussed there at the end there example, the weaker brother condemning people to hell over that seems pretty ridiculous to me, but. So, yeah, that, and then the worshiping 100% of the time thing I 100% disagree with. But what thoughts do you guys have to add to that? [00:38:31] Speaker A: That you just kind of follow the layers of that? All of life is worship, which is a claim a lot of people believe, but it's, it's. It's a debated one. It's a hotly debated one. All of life is worship. All of worship has to meet Sunday corporate or, you know, all of life then has to meet our Sunday corporate worship regulations. Therefore. [00:38:52] Speaker C: Sorry, honey, you're never saying another word. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Well, literally, I mean, like the man. And then you've got that many layers that you've added and you come around to and of course you're going to hell if you disagree. Like, all right, hang on a second. Like that. That's where you need to be asking yourself, am I going a little too far? Like, when there's one step that you have to take from the Bible says x is a sin. Therefore, if you do it and don't repent and you're unrepentant and doing it, you're going to hell. Not much of a leap there. When you're, like doing all kinds of gymnastics and you get your conclusion, it's like. And obviously like, no, that's. I'm not even talking about the music part so much at this point as I am. Like, that approach to the Bible is just crazy to me. Hey, folks, you've probably heard us talk about focus plus and the deep end. If you're wondering what that is, focus plus is our subscription service, available through Patreon. Every week. Members get all kinds of christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, a sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the deep end, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for think deeper listeners where you can submit your comments on an episode, and we will respond and have a bit of a q and a each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focus press or go to focuspress.org plus. [00:40:20] Speaker C: All right, fellas. Jack, I think you're on for the next comment. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Here I am. And so this brought up the section where we talked about just that, listening to christian music on the radio instrumental, and I like what she says here. It says she struggled with it, came to the conclusion it didn't feel seem like the right thing to do. I believe if you do anything that violates your conscience, it becomes a sin for you. So I've left it alone. I think that's great. We talked about that a little bit. The Romans 14, your conscience, that for some people it's going to be okay, for some people, it's not. And when you really have that. That feeling deep down, listen to it go with that. And that's. That's pleasing to God is when you're trying to please him and you're doing what you think pleases him. This one, I think, is really interesting. The other issue I've considered is, are these songs scripturally correct? So many of the artists don't believe correctly, and listening to their songs can lead people down the wrong path. Did you guys have a comment on that? Because I think there's some. Some interesting stuff there. [00:41:15] Speaker C: I think what I don't. [00:41:17] Speaker B: So what's interesting to me, I actually heard a sermon one time where the preacher was kind of dissecting all the songs in our normal hymn books, that this would apply to songs. They're not scripturally correct. And the one that I always remember is actually amazing grace, where it says, how precious did that grace appear? The hour I first believed, you know, no mention of baptism, nothing. It's just grace appeared, and I. As soon as I believe there was grace, you know, I think if. I don't necessarily want to nitpick every song, but I do think that there is an element of. It's not just the songs on the radio that you kind of got to be careful about sometimes, because here's what people always. This is my favorite thing, is when people are kind of anti reading denominational people, you know, books or whatever, pretty much every single one of our songs in our songbook was written by a denominational person, a Baptist, or, you know, something of that kind. And so there is that. That you kind of have to watch out for. But, yeah, I would agree with this commenter that you should probably be a little careful, especially if you're going outside of, you know, your regular Sunday morning service, to sing these songs and be watching for things that are just blatantly not scriptural according to what we believe the Bible says. Joe, how about you? What are your. What are your thoughts on that? [00:42:36] Speaker C: I was going to make the same point. So I think you said it. You covered it. Well, some of the church songs. What's one jack that. That Wayne Burger used to have a real problem with, um, talking about the double. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Oh, rock of ages, be of saying the double cure. [00:42:49] Speaker C: There you go, the double cure, which is, you know, you get into Calvinism and such, like, someone talk about the rapture. So, yeah, yeah, you got some issues even within the songbooks that we have. It's just a call for people to pay attention. [00:43:01] Speaker B: You know what's interesting? The old rugged cross. I've never been a huge fan of, like, making the cross out to be this thing that we, like, cherish and hold on to. It's like, no, no, thanks. I mean, I appreciate what Jesus did on the cross, but, yeah, making the cross an emblem that we almost worship is kind of always not sat well with me. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's outside the hymn book. There's been. And I don't listen to contemporary christian music, but apparently it's a Bethel Hill song. Some of these, like, big music outlets lately get a lot of criticism for being just straight up heretical, and. And so that's something that if you do listen to Christian, I know we've got listener, you know, people that have commented to us about this episode that listen to that, the K love station or whatever, like, pay attention to that, because even if you're kind of on guard for some of these, like, church of Christ doctrine things that we're talking about here, and you know, what to look out for there. There are just, like, general theology things that are being undermined through. Through some of these songs. And so, yeah, you be careful with that, even. [00:44:02] Speaker C: Yeah, because I was going to say the people that are doing this, that are probably getting away from the other music, they're probably the type that are checking the lyrics of the other songs, you know, the one republic songs or post Malone songs or whatever it may be of contemporary music, like, check the lyrics of those as well, and just make sure your kids aren't beboping along to absolute heresy, because that's. That's not good either. So, yeah, I do think that there are some issues with that. I think it's an interesting point she brings up. All right, you got the rest of it? Is that. Is that the rest of that? I think that was it. [00:44:34] Speaker A: No, no, no. It's, um. Uh, just kind of her own experience with somebody who thought we were kind of crazy for not doing that. But, you know, this is the kind of the path you choose in the churches of Christ, and that's nothing. I don't have a problem with that whatsoever. So. All right, who's got the next. [00:44:53] Speaker C: So this. Yeah, this brings us to our last comment, and we were talking about how to break down. It's. It's a bit of a longer comment with some really good points made specifically about kind of her story talks about, starts with the. Raised in the baptist church, grew up with. With us worshiping with instruments, listening to christian music on the radio with instruments. After I left the baptist church, baptized into Christ, I still sometimes listen to christian music on the radio, the cds I had, but found that as a temptation, caused her to struggle with thoughts. And of course, being a babe in Christ, she's trying to learn the truth, build a solid foundation, and she listened to music, found herself often having the thought, what's so wrong with this? Tempted to follow her own thoughts and emotions over the truth and kind of dip back into where she came from is kind of thought. So she started making cds with acapella listening in the car, and noticed that the children were picking up on things from the radio, singing songs that she didn't want them to sing and such as we were just talking about. So she just started listening acapella songs with everybody to help focus on the Lord and put their hearts and minds in the right place. And so she talks about. She did, for a very brief time, start listening to christian music on the radio again, thinking, that'd be better than listening to secular music, as we just said, but found myself having the same thoughts I used to have. What's so wrong with this? My children asked why they were using instruments, so they thought God didn't want people to use instruments. So we stopped listening to it, went back to only acapella. Fellas, what are your thoughts on that? Of kind of guarding against the. Well, what's so wrong with this? Like, if that thought was coming up, do you find that to be maybe a tool? And this is what she says. Like, I think it can be a tool Satan uses to get people to follow their emotions over what the Bible says. Seeing in myself believe it is the case with many people in denominations who use an instrument as well. What are your thoughts on that? Maybe this is something that Satan uses as a tool to kind of get people away from correct worship. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Well, to the first part about, like, the. The lyrical stuff was secular, and we just covered it with theology. But I. But just in general, the tone of stuff does affect you, the way you think, the way you see the world. And so I would caution people against that. With the secular music that you do listen to is, like, really think about the kind of the lifestyle and the worldview that it cultivates. So there is that side of it. I definitely will agree with that. As far as I said, I don't listen to the contemporary christian music, and part of it, I don't think is very good. Part of it is, yeah. Like, I. It does feel weird when it's a cappella only, you know, with the church and things like that. You know, I might not come at it as strongly as she does there, but I can kind of get the line of reasoning that gets you there of, you know, is it a tool of Satan? I'm not sure I'd go that far, either. Might be just misguided people in some cases, or whatever the case may be, but, but, yeah, I mean, it's. I could see where it certainly feels like a challenge to your consistency. [00:47:56] Speaker B: I think that. I think that's very well said. I appreciate, I think it's very noble the way the commenter describes, like, being very conscious of what the children. Of what the, what the kids are listening to. You know, obviously, I'm very much learning. I don't even have a three year old yet, and my kid is, he's processing every single thing he hears, every single thing he sees, and he's remembering it, and it sticks with these kids. And so whether that is, you know, obviously that applies to secular music. But also, you know, as she brought up the fact that, you know, that her kids would ask, you know, hey, I thought we weren't supposed to be listening to this. So as far as that goes, again, I think that's a noble thing to say. You know what? We're just gonna stay away from it. We don't want to have the, the inconsistency point is really good. Um, I. Jack, you said it. Well, I don't think that I would call it a tool of Satan, necessarily. Um, although I do understand kind of what they're going for there, um, because what's. Yeah, I don't know. I I feel like Satan is very busy doing things that Satan's got bigger fish to fry, I guess, is the way that I would put that very, very briefly, um, in the sense that there's a whole lot of evil in this world that Satan, I feel like, is very active in and pushing a lot. And I just don't know that, you know, pushing people towards listening to, you know, instrumental music on the radio is at the top of Satan's to do list, so to speak. But obviously, that's a very, you know, maybe watered down way of looking at it, but I certainly understand what they're going for there. And I, again, listen, if somebody, if, if my wife came to me tomorrow and was like, I really don't think we should, you know, not that we do it a ton, you know, every now and then, but hey, I think, I don't think we should ever listen to another, a single song that has instruments in it praising God. I would tell her, sure, let's, let's not do that. Fine with me. You know, I totally understand that. [00:49:48] Speaker C: So she continues, I don't have anything else to add on that. She continues with another interesting question I want to get into. So she's talking about memorizing the psalms, singing them back says that if a plan for us to do is work on memorizing different psalm each week is part of that, to play the psalm being sung throughout the week, add it to the playlist that we can go back and listen to again and again to help us remember the psalms. My question is, what are your thoughts on using songs like finds on YouTube for these psalms? Using songs that have instruments for this purpose? Do you think it would be better to try to find each of the psalms being sung a capella or do you think it's okay to listen to the songs or the psalms with instruments? She's afraid that the, the kids might have some questions if she uses the instruments. So what are your thoughts, fellas? I'll go first on this one. I think that's a fantastic idea, having the psalms, singing, singing through them. Jack has is very big on this. I think they did a full dogma episode on this. Who let the dog mount? So check that out. Make sure to listen to that one. But, yeah, I think that's huge to, to implement that. Where you're going to run into this is if you can find an acapella version. Fantastic. Go for it. I mean, all in, right? That's great. Unfortunately, there's a lot more people that use instruments than those that don't. So you may end up running across songs that are psalms and that are songs with instruments. I think it's okay to get the melody from the instruments and then go, okay, we're going to sing this. Talk about, just explain that to your kids. We're not going to choose to sing along with this, but we are getting the melody. We are getting, you know, what they've done with this. We're going to memorize it by singing it ourselves and then really adopt it as our own and, you know, use it a cappella for our own purposes. I think that's a fantastic idea. I don't think you have to have them every single time. I think you can learn the song and then move on to have it in your family worship. That would be my suggestion in that, that setting. But fellas, thoughts on that? Anything you'd add? [00:51:33] Speaker A: Well, first I'd just tell you, if you haven't found them already, Theopolis Institute has some psalm chant videos which are really interesting. And so if you're looking for things like that, that's a good one. And a capella. I think some might have instruments, but there are definitely some acapella ones. The other thing is when you look in acts 246, the 3000 baptized church, and like all those great things the early church was doing, says gathering. You know, they're continuing in the temple with one mind day by day. You know, what happened when they went to the temple is they heard the temple band playing psalms. And so that was part of the early church's life. Now obviously the, the church ended up, as I mentioned in the episode, kind of more and more separating from the Judaism and going their own way and their own worship. And Sunday became its own thing. And just like as the church grew, it turned to something else. But I mean, Peter and John, right after that, acts three are going up to the temple and that's what they would have heard. And so if it's like a sin to do so, you got a problem right there. And so I think there's a little bit of clearance given on that issue. [00:52:37] Speaker B: I don't have a lot to add. Joe, you can get to will anything. [00:52:40] Speaker C: All right, last paragraph here. One last comment. I have something to consider. When it comes to listening to worship music of instruments, worship and quotations is a question I once heard a member of the church ask. He said, how can christians find enjoyment and entertainment and listen to something that God calls vain worship? And I think it makes a good point. Why should we find enjoyment in something God is displeased with and does not accept? Fellas, will, I'll let you start. [00:53:05] Speaker B: Sure. So I appreciate the question. How can christians find enjoyment, entertainment and listen to something God calls vain worship? I think what, what I would point out, which might sound like nitpicking, but I don't think it is, to be clear, there is nowhere in the Bible where God specifically calls it vain worship. That is something that is kind of assumed. And obviously that is the kind of conclusion that we draw. But I would caution people against like telling, you know, basically asking questions like that or saying to somebody, well, you know, God calls it vain worship. Technically, he does not. There's nowhere that says, you know, God looked down on this and called it vain worship. So that was the first thing that stuck out to me, is that I've never read that specifically anywhere in the Bible. But as far as the overall point of it, why should we find enjoyment in something God is displeased with and does not accept? I do think if you are of the opinion that, you know, staunchly, anytime an instrument is used, God is 100% displeased, and that you think that, you know, you believe that you're in sin, then, yeah, that has to apply to. On the radio as well. That has to apply to, you know, what you're listening to on Apple Music or Spotify. And I'm going to revert back to what I brought up in the episode. Again, what just. It just trips me up so much that there. That argument has to also argue that listening to nineties country or listening to eighties rock and roll or listening to name your secular music would be better than listening to that. And listen. Maybe there's a good argument that says, no, that's not the case. Here's why. I just. I don't know. I find it very hard to say or to see God saying yet. You can find enjoyment in non spiritually related songs and secular songs, but you can't find any enjoyment in that. Maybe that's off. Maybe that's wrong, but that. That's where I struggle with that. And again, I 100% understand that question. I think it's a good question. I think it's logical. I think it, you know, it lines out very well. But some of the. That would be the counterpoint that I would bring up is, you know, so my three year old would be better off listening to Barney or something, or obviously, as they get older, you know, my teenagers would be better off listening to some of the stuff that plays on the pop stations as opposed to this. Those are my thoughts. So, again, we covered a lot of that, but, um, I think. I think it's a good question. And again, I think if you're somebody who staunchly believes that as soon as an instrument is used, you are out of the in. Right. Standing with God, you know, side of things that. Yeah, you don't need to be listening that on the radio either. Yeah. [00:55:54] Speaker A: The. The vein worship, Jack. Anything you add to that, the vein worship point especially, I think, pops in that, like how some of this can get dialed up to a fever pitch when that's a phrase that Jesus uses in, let's see, I had it pulled up here. Matthew 15 eight nine. This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In vain do they worship me. Teaching his doctrine the precepts of Mendez. That's one of those like, burden of proof to get from there to. All right. Anytime, you know, a person has any instrumentation at all that they're doing the same thing. I think that really was talking about like, cold, heartless, rote, not interested in God kind of worship. And I think there's some people who are very genuine and they're, I'd say, misguided, but genuine. And so, like, when we call it vain worship, be, be careful not to overstate the case, I guess, is all I would say about that one. [00:56:47] Speaker B: Right, right. I don't how much to add is that. I think that's our last comment. Right? [00:56:53] Speaker A: It is. Again, thanks to everybody who helped us fill this out. I think we, we kind of expanded this into some new directions thanks to the comments we got. Yeah, I mean, it's. We all sing, we all have worship every week and, and so it's really good to think through what we're doing and make sure we're doing it in a way that pleases goddess. [00:57:12] Speaker B: Last thing I'll say. And then I don't know if one of y'all wants to wrap us up. I want to encourage. It's been so cool to see all the comments, especially our focus plus subscribers, everybody who, again, you can just, it's through a screen, but you kind of see them light up as they're typing this stuff. Like, it stirs up the discussion in a really positive way. And I would just encourage you guys, you know, all of us, you know, about these things. Let's have these discussions. I think it's such a, such a positive thing. I mean, that's really, again, the whole point of this podcast is to think deeper and to, to just talk about this, to talk about it with your fellow brother or sister who might probably does have maybe a slightly different opinion than you. And yeah, we're obviously just the biggest fans of open discussion about these things and, you know, kind of sharing, you know, our biblical take on it. And so I would just, again, it was encouraging for me to see how much everybody enjoyed and wanted to provide their opinion and their take and ask their questions, and I would just say, have that same gusto, you might say, for just about every, you know, any biblical topic that you find interesting in that way. So I've enjoyed these last two weeks. I think these two guys have as well. Anything else to add, Jack? Do you want to take us out of here? [00:58:21] Speaker A: Yeah, we got the Q and a coming up, just tons of interesting stuff. I'm very excited to get to that as well. But there's still time to get questions in. It will probably end up being a couple weeks of Q and A because there's just so many questions we've gotten and so there's some room. There's our Facebook group, the think deeper, deep thinkers Facebook group. There's focus. Plus look for the Q and A posts on there or just send us a message, email jack express.org or whatever, and we will try and work it in. As always. There'll be a deep end for this as well. If there's more comments, more questions, more to add on to this discussion of two parts of music. And so be sure to get with us on those and we'll talk to you guys next time.