[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to another episode of the Think Deeper podcast. Your co hosts Will Harab, joined as always by Joe and Jack Wilkie. We are here in, I think it's these month, this month that everybody calls the dog days of summer. Just not a lot going on as far as, you know, sports, I guess kids are going back to school, so getting really getting into the school year. And I know for you Wilkies, this is an incredibly busy month. It's the, I think, what, 80% of the Wilkie family was born in August. So you guys have got birthdays every other day. It feels like Jack, your birthday coming up here in two days. So happy early birthday to you this year, right?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Not 40 yet. Come on, guys.
Oh, now there's all that scholarship on Timothy. And don't let anybody look down on your youthfulness. And people say, well, he was probably 35 at the time, so I'm still youthful according to the apostle.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Youthful. There you go. Well, don't let anybody die like you because of it.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Didn't people used to die like 50 back then? I don't know.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: It's not making me feel a lot better.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: You got 15 years. You're fine.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Make the most.
But in all seriousness and all serious, happy birthday to Jack and happy birthday to Allison and the six other wilkies that are born in August. So gonna move into our episode today, which I think hopefully a lot of people will find pretty interesting. We're talking about music and the Bible kind of. Obviously we're going to get into instrumental music and why we do not believe that the Bible authorizes that. But more, even more than that, we want to look at just kind of what does the Bible have to say about music? What are some biblical precedents for music to God? And then we're going to get into what, in my opinion, always is and will be the most interesting part of the episode, which is kind of modern day application. In churches, in congregations, there's varying degrees, varying levels to which congregations try to go with music. Obviously, even within the church of Christ, you don't have a lot of instruments being used, but you do have maybe some praise teams, you maybe do have some micing of people in the audience. You do have maybe hand clapping, all that. And of course, the question that we've gotten a ton, which is, can christians listen to christian music? Music, obviously with instruments in the cardinal, you know, Apple music, you listen to it in their headphones, whatever it is. We're going to get into all that. I did want to say too. I think we forgot. And you guys, I guess you can cut this out if we're not doing this anymore, but we do have a q and a episode coming up as well. And so I would recommend any of our listeners, if you've got a question that you're just dying for us to answer in an episode that is coming up here in the next couple weeks. And so leave a comment here, leave a comment on Facebook, comment on YouTube.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Whichever avenue I know some people like doing private. And just. There you go.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: If you want it. If you want anonymous
[email protected] dot this will be, I think, the third q and a episode we've done, and we always really enjoy those people come out of the woodworks with a lot of really good questions. So. Well, with that being said, guys, let's get into this episode talking about instruments, talking about music and the Bible. Joe, I'm gonna hand it off to you to kind of get us started. I guess I kind of already gave the intro as far as where we're headed. Any other introductory thoughts?
[00:03:10] Speaker C: I don't think so. This has been requested, you know, and as you said, there's been a lot of, like, I don't know, just a lot of discussion surrounding this specifically with people reaching out to us and kind of where we stand, specifically on the instruments outside of worship, you know, in the car radio, things like that.
So I'm looking forward to this one. I think it's gonna be good. But we wanted to start just with a general discussion on music, because I think the first one we were just discussing this off air is genesis four with Jubal. Right? So there's tuplecaine, and he's with bronze and such and metalworks. And then you have Jubal. And I was saying, I always remember from Jubilee, but Jubal, who is the father of instruments, pretty much. Right. So this is all the way back to Genesis four. We're talking, like, very close to the beginning. And then you see instruments throughout the Bible. You're going to see it a lot with in the law, with the trumpets being blown. You see with David, he's dancing with tambourines. He's got the harp, right? He's playing it there.
You can fast forward all the way to revelation. And we see Trump is still being blown. You see him at Jericho in Joshua. Was that Joshua six? I want to say Joshua six.
And then you see it all the way at the end of time, where there's trumpets being blown with God and Christ's return and everything else. So music is very important to God. I think that's safe to say. It's kind of the same thing as food. You can see the food theme throughout. We look at sustenance like, no, there's a special place for food with God going all the way back to the original sin, right? Taking a fruit all the way forward. We're seeing a feast in Revelation 22, a feast. We're gonna have a God like food is throughout that. And Jesus a lot of times eating. Same with music. There is a level of importance placed on music, on the type of music, on the trumpets being blown on everything else else to signal the. Or to signal the presence of God. So I just find that to be fascinating. Music clearly is very important to God, and I think it's for our enjoyment, but it's also for a lot of other things. And then this doesn't even get into the theories of, like, how music affects us internally and the different hurts. I'll listen sometimes is weird, but when I'm writing sermons, I'll listen to like 8 hz or 12 hz. You can find it on.
On Spotify and such. It's very interesting, but it's.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Do you find it sermon writing?
[00:05:18] Speaker C: It actually does, believe it or not. My wife can attest this.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:21] Speaker C: It's because they say silence is probably best, but when you got kids in the house, it's best to have the headphones on. And it's just these tones that kind of go out and they streamline brainwaves and things like that. So music is a big part of humanity, I would say, and how it kind of grounds us. But that is the point of music. We wanted to start with that and say it's very important to God. Now, this is where Jack, I'm going to leave this.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: I want to add to that as well, just as what it means to God. This is one of those things that we have to really pay attention to the Bible, and when you do, it gets you out of the gnosticism we have. Old Testament was physical, New Testament spiritual, and we're all the kind of the. We are souls with bodies just for a short time, like. Right? No, music is a physical manifestation, and I really love that both you guys always give me the business when I quote books because apparently I'm not allowed to read a. But Tolkien and CS Lewis both created their universes that they built fictionally. Started with singing Aslan sings Narnia into existence and all the nerdy lord of the Rings, stuff like that. They so nerdy. God gives essentially all the angels music and teaching them. You sing this part, you sing this part, and as the harmony happens, it comes into existence. And there's kind of this theory of the music of the spheres that how mathematical the universe is and gravity and all that stuff. There's a music to the planets in the world, like in our universe, not the fictional ones now, but like there's a music to nature itself, and we kind of sing with that. All nature sings, and around me rings the music of the spheres. Like that song, this is my father's world, references that idea. And some scientists are like, ah, it's not there. It's not. But you kind of get the concept and that we live in a very musical universe, that this is something God created into the physical that we exist in. And that's why I, a, singing, but b, voices coming together as the scripture is talking about, with one voice singing and not watching your computer on Zoom and singing to yourself, but like in a group of people, the harmony, our voices aligning with each other. Like this is a recreation of sort. Like, this is such a big deal, really a powerful thing that's happening. And when you just see, one of my favorite things is I'm just kind of geeking out here on all kinds of different. The point of music, but the way it brings people together, when you see a football stadium all sing a song together and just 80,000 people, and, like, how it just, it's moving, it's powerful. And I think, again, it just, you can be really gnostic in your christianity about the physical. Doesn't matter until you hear something like that. It's like, oh, this is real. This is from God that we have this.
[00:08:00] Speaker C: Imagine being up in heaven and hearing, you know, million angels just chanting and singing and things like that to God. That what you get in revelation, like, that's what we get to look forward to. And it is going to be glorious and magical, but we get to recreate some of that while here on earth.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: With a voice with your ears, correct?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to bring up the narcissism point as well. You know, that people could just point, well, you know, it's earthly, it's. It's physical, so it doesn't matter. But you think about all the different ways God has, has blessed us with the ability to just absolutely enjoy this life, enjoy our time here on earth. Joe, you brought up food. I think that's, that's a big one as well. Just things like, you know, a sunset or just. Just various ways that God has blessed us from a physical perspective of we get to enjoy this life. I think music is maybe at the top of that list. You think about how, you know, from the time kids are born, their moms are singing lullabies to them, their, you know, music is just such a big part of our life, pretty much as. As we continue to. To grow into our adulthood. Every single phase of life, music is involved. And so, obviously, we're about to get into the instrumental music portion of worship. But I. Joe, I appreciate is you're kind of the one that put the outline together. I appreciate you starting with this point to just illustrate the fact that music is a big part of our life. Therefore, it's very important to God, and it's something all the way back in Genesis four. I mean, that's not that many generations after creation. We're seeing music, and, you know, it says Jubal was the father of those who play the harp and the flute. And then, of course, it's all throughout the Old Testament. And so, yeah, there's more to this music discussion than just why we don't use instruments, which is, I think, what everybody jumps to all the time. There's. There's a little more to it than that.
[00:09:42] Speaker C: Well, I started for. For two reasons. I started with this point. First is for those that are like me that would gladly go throughout a worship service without actually seeing any songs. I just do the sermon and prayer and such. Uh, I'm not a big singer, and I've not made any, uh. That's true.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: That's interesting.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: I haven't been quiet on that. That I'm just not. I'm not great at singing. I'm not a big fan of it. We'd sit around at Devos and everybody'd sing and sing and sing and sing. And I love singing. That ain't me. Uh, just to be quite honest with you, that's not me. It's still very, very important. And that's why I put this on here and started with this is. It's incredibly important to sing out to God. It is an important part of God or of the way we come to God, the way we worship God. But part two to that, the reason why I started with this is there is a specific way to do it. That that is the importance of this is if God has given us these ways, then it shows we can get it right, and we're supposed to get it right. And it's important for us to really come to God in a way that is God honoring to him. Right. That's worshiping him. And that's what brings us into the discussion on instruments. Because, fellas, as I just mentioned with all the way back to, you know, the Genesis four, which isn't necessarily in a worship context, but you do see the tambourines and we do see the, you know, harps with worship music going along with the psalms, and we do see trumpets and we see it in the New Testament. We see trumpets in revelation. And so if I were the average person sitting here and I'm listening to these things, I might go, if I was like a Baptist or whatever, I might go and say, well, see, that shows that we ought to be using instruments, fellas. What's, how, how would you deal with that? Is, that's one of the champion things for them is, look, you see it in revelation, you see it in the Old Testament. Why would we not fill in the gaps with instruments in the New Testament since that's clearly, quote unquote, the way that God intended to be worshiped from the beginning? What would you say to that?
[00:11:25] Speaker A: So I, in lads to leaders, I did last leaders, of course, for like ten years or so. And the last four, I guess, all four year, my high school years, we did, I participated in debate and instrumental music was the first, I guess, what is that called? The first thing we debated over where you had to both affirm and deny the statement, which was that the Bible does authorize use of instruments for worship.
One of the things that that did for me is it kind of taught me how to argue from a debate perspective. Obviously, both sides, and they make all the qualifiers of like, we believe this thing, but you need to know the arguments for the other side. And so I'll go ahead and get into where everybody always jumps to, to kind of prove why we don't use instruments is obviously Ephesians 519 and 20 and Colossians three, what is it, 16, I think? Colossians 316 17.
[00:12:17] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: 16 and 17. So one of the things that this doing debate taught me in a manner of like this is how other people are going to argue for instruments similar to what you were just talking about, Joe, is in Ephesians five, when it talks about speaking to one another in psalms, thats the first one that it mentions. Well, what do you think the original psalms were, were played with instruments?
Just about all of them were played with instruments. And so to your point, Joe, if Im somebody who is pro instruments and somebody comes at me, well, what about Ephesians 519? Im going to say, yeah, it mentioned psalms. Guess what psalms were played with was instruments. And so again, everybody jumps to Ephesians five and Colossians three. I dont think that those are the best, best examples to use to prove as to why we don't use instruments. I don't want to take all the content here if you guys want to jump in, but I did want to just bring that up in the sense of like, I feel like we in the church will use those two verses. There's kind of a trump card and kind of do the. Well, just I don't see how you could misunderstand it just by using those two verses. And I don't think that that fits at all. Again, I don't want to take all the content here. So Jack, what are your thoughts on the kind of ephesians five and Colossians three go to trump card passages for most people in the church of Christ? I think that I obviously get out in front here and say, I don't believe we should be using instruments in worship. I just think there are a lot better arguments to use than just Mike dropping Ephesians five and Colossians three and thinking that that's going to do the trick.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it does reference psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, which a bit of a rabbit trail, are probably all just psalms because those were divisions in the psalms from the Greek Old Testament that they would be using. And so just the different forms of psalms and some of those, as you said explicitly were this is to be played on the harpenne. But I think you can also get to the second half of that verse of it starts off speaking to one another in these ways and then singing and making melody in your hearts to God. And somebody would say, well, yeah, you can sing accompanying, but I think it's sometimes people will point to, well, that Megan melody or the greek words behind that say to pluck.
And so clearly that means plucking like harps or whatever. And I think he's pointing us to, you're the instruments now, your heart is, that is, with your voice, with your heart. That's where it's coming from. Hebrews 1315 has the same thing where it's talking about is kind of our sacrifice. It says, therefore through him, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God that is the fruit of lips that give thanks to his name. And so it's taking these Old Testament terms and putting them in our body. You know, you are the temple of the church. It is the fruit of lips is YOur sacrifice of praise, not the pleasing aroma of a burning animal going up to God. It's the, what's coming out of YOur mouth, what's coming out of YOur Heart making melody. And so I think you're right in that it is not the slam the door shut that we like it to be. But on the other hand, I think when you really dig under what's being said in these New Testament verses, it is pointing to, it's not a physical building, it's Physical people. It is the gathered saints. It's not an instrument you hold in YOur hands. It's coming from within you, out of your voice. And, and it's one of the ways.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: That we're filled with the spirit there in the context of Ephesians five.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Right. And it's another thing that kind of goes along with this is the early church was very mobile. It was a kind of thing where they go to a town and plant it. You didn't have to, you weren't bringing a piano with you. You weren't, you didn't have to have a harp. And it was also, it's all of us, all of us are doing this together, the, the worship, and we've added the song leader, which we'll talk about a little bit later, is not like a problem. But, and I'm sure you had somebody leading, but the idea of this kind of being a, some people are performing and some people aren't.
This is, that, that is not the sense of any of these verses. It's, all of us are coming together and everybody can sing. I mean, Joe and I might not be very good at it, but we can sing. And so this is something that you're supposed to bring your part of it as well.
Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like think deeper and godly young men and our books, article seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's focuspress.org donate. Thanks again for listening.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I think anytime you see somebody go, well, God just doesn't ever want instruments in his worship like now. Correct. But to act like God has always been offended at instruments, I think is the wrong approach. That's not how I would handle this is, well, God just doesn't authorize like he did authorize in the Old Testament. He asked for it and we do see it authorized in revelation. The difference is, to your point, Jack, first off, the Old Testament was very individualized. It was, you bring your offering to the priests and they do the work for you. Well, now with us being the priests, with us being the temple, right now, we're bringing that offering to God through our, you know, through ourselves. We are the instrument, as he says. But this also connects to the fact that where were the instruments intended to be used in the house of the Lord? This was always connected to temple worship. We're almost always connected to the temple worship in the praise of God. You can go back to. I just pulled up a couple scriptures here. First, chronicles 25. David and the commanders of the army set apart for the service some of the sons of Asaph and of Haman and of Jeduthun, who were to prophesy with liars, harps, and symbols.
And then he lists them, and they go down to verse six of one, chronicles 25. All these were under the direction of their father to sing in the house of the Lord with symbols, harps, and liars for the service of the house of God. And then you go to second chronicles, chapter 29. And then there in 25, he then stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with symbols, with harps, with liars, according to the command of David and of Gad the king, seer and Nathan the prophet. So this is in the house of the Lord. If you go all the way to psalm 137, this is from the priests who were talking from captivity, from babylonian captivity, and they talk about how they forgotten their song, and their fingers are forgetting the ways of the harp. And the reason why is BEcause they did not play instruments outside of it. Interestingly, they start synagogues in Babylon while they're away from God. They're. While they're away from the temple.
We base a lot of our worship service, including the reading of scripture, including the prayers, the songs, everything else. We base it on synagogue worship, which did not have instruments for that reason, because it was not tied to temple. Well, this explains revelation. We see that being played. Well, yeah, because they're in the temple in heaven with God. So it was in the temple at the, you know, in the old testament. It's in the temple in revelation. We are the temple now. So the instrument is us. We're the ones that are bringing it to God. And I think that helps as well. The other thing I'd say is, from a historical perspective, what is it? I think 680 or 8600, to be more technically correct, that I think we see the pope decide to bring in the organ, and that's the first instrument that we see in New Testament. You can go back to the old or the early church fathers. Instruments were not used at that time.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Meaning for the first 600 years of church history, or 570, or whatever it was, it wasn't used.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: It wasn't used. And it took a pope who said, which also is not the church, but it took a pope who said, I just really like the sound of the organ. Let's combine it to put it in. And I'm blanking on the pope's name. I knew it at one point, but either way, you can look that up. 600 years, 570, whatever it is, years after the church is established that we're seeing it.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: From the historical perspective, from the synagogue perspective, of us basing our worship from the temple perspective, I think all of those things point to, we're not commanded to use instruments. We are the instrument ourselves with our voice. I'm not a big fan of some of the arguments. Like I said, the argument of God never doesn't even want instruments like he does in the proper context, which is in the tEmple.
The other thing is when we go to the Greek, while it's solo. Right. And Jack, what you kind of talked about, look, we could go to the Greek, but I'm not a fan of having to really parse out the greek and participles and everything else and, you know, all the passive and secondary. Passive and things like that in order to come to a simple truth. If we have to do that, we've lost 99% of people who couldn't care less about the Greek. And you go, well, we should care about the Greek. Yeah, but if that's what you have to base your argument around, is really getting down to the nitty gritty, you're going to lose people.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: I I think that was really well laid out there, Joe. I've always loved the temple worship side of the argument. Also, of course, just the obvious factor of, like, you brought up with the first inch or with the first century christians not using them if they didn't appear till 600 ad or whatever the year was, that's the apostles, early church fathers, everybody we look up to didn't use them. And so if they didn't, I don't think we should. I've always thought that's a better argument than like, like you said, just kind of mic dropping verses or using the solo thing. Here's a question I have for you guys, because one of the arguments I've also used before is that throughout the entire New Testament, where you get a lot of. I shouldn't say a lot, you get a significant picture of what the early church was doing. You obviously get a lot of it in acts. You get it in you know, a lot of the epistles as well as like, this is what the church did. You have elders, you have, you know, Paul preaching till midnight. Like you have examples of what the early church did. You don't ever see instruments. I've always thought that's a pretty good argument as well. But here's my question, because if I was on the other side, again, using kind of the debate format here, one of the things that I might say is, listen, if it was this big a deal to God to where we shouldn't be using them, don't you think they would have made it a little bit more clear? Like there would be at least one version in epistle somewhere where Paul says, hey, make sure you don't use these, or again, maybe an act somewhere. I've heard that argument as well. And so I'm curious your guys thoughts on when people might say that of like, hey, if it's really this big a deal and it's a yde serious deal to God right now, don't you think it would have been made a little bit more clear? What are your guys thoughts on that? Because regardless of what, of what other people might think and what we believe, there is a little bit of, we can't just go to one version, say, you know what? Here, this is why we can't use it. Even going to the temple and using the first century, those are kind of somewhat out of the text answers. And so what are your thoughts on that?
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, as Joe brought up in the Old Testament, you have David essentially establishing the temple's house bandaid. And if you were going to have that in the New Testament, just kind of the idea of, well, hey, if you got a guitar, bring it down. No, that's not going to like, you're going to have to do it decently in an order. And so you don't see Paul going, all right, well, you need to have this guy doing this or somebody on the harp, or you just don't have that establishment of it. You have this. Again, the assumption, the only thing it says repeatedly is use your voice. And so it's really important that you do that. And, yeah, I mean, it is a glaring omission. And of course, somebody would say, well, they were just continuing on in the jewish tradition. The jewish tradition was the temple had a house band. They're not meeting in the temple after those first few years in early acts, they were still going to the temple. And so, yeah, somebody would say, well, in acts two, everybody got baptized, and then they, they kept going back to the temple. And so they would have been hearing instrumental worship, which clearly it was okay in the early church, but as the church separated itself from the jewish order, as kind of starts happening throughout the book of acts, especially because the. The jewish leadership did not want them around.
Yeah. Then they're not going to have that temple banned. And at no point do you see them going, well, now we got to get our own. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there is validity to that argument.
Yeah.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: The other thing is it did denote the presence of God, which was in the temple. Right. With Ark of the covenant and everything else.
So when God's presence is there and the trumpets and everything else, I think that's a big deal. Obviously, we have the presence of God within us, but we're not all bringing trumpets. Like, again, that is we, us as the instrument. But I think that goes to show. And Jack, as you're talking about the priesthood of believers, how important this is that you did have people that were established Asaph. Right. And his sons, you did have them established as the people to do it. And now everybody is. And that's a really, really big deal. And this is why there's a little soapbox of mine. But this is why when we elevate, like the preacher and we elevate, there are some members that, you know, elder, worthy of his, you know, worthy of double honor, things like that. The deacons and elders and even a preacher, as we discussed. At the same time, everybody has to bring something. Jack, this goes to the point of church reset of the consumeristic mindset versus the potluck.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:26] Speaker C: I'm not coming to a restaurant, come to a potluck. That's one of the best arguments for us as people who don't use instruments. Right. For Acapella is this is a potluck that we're coming to where everybody bringing something as opposed to. I'm showing up to the temple to be.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: To participate in the worship of God. I'm mainly watching. So you look at, we have like red Rocks Community Church is huge, right back in Denver and flatirons. And they got several big denominational churches, or non denominational, I suppose, but community churches. How many people are there for? The music's just beautiful, man. I just love it is so moving and kind of swaying back and forth with the hands and really getting the rock band is just incredible. And the worship music is so good. And yet when you take those people and they show up to a place where it's a capella, it's like this is different. This stands out. This is not me coming to be entertained. This is me bringing my very best that I can bring as a priest. I'm no longer coming to the priest. That's what the community church feels like, is I am bringing my worship and I'm giving it to the priests, quote unquote, up on stage so they can do the rock band portion and they can praise God and all kind of sway alongside of. But I don't actually have to bring it to God. And that's what I would say from. From that perspective of why it's so important that we sing out and make melody with our hearts and with our voices is that's me bringing to God my own sacrifice, in a way, as a priest. That's why it's such a big deal that we're priests. So I don't want to pardon the expression, but beat it. Beat on a drum, but, you know, that's. Or beat the dead horse, I guess. But, yeah, that's what I would say on that. It is a difficult thing, though, when we, you know, as you talk about will, kind of a mic drop moments. There are some things that make this a difficult thing. Can I see how people are misled on this? Can I see how people get this wrong? Yes, I can. I read a book one time by. I think it was by Baptist, and they were adamant that we needed to use instruments, and they, like that we were wrong.
Correct. And they very much felt like you were in sin if you were not using instruments. And it's like, clearly, I disagree with that. But it was an interesting argumentation. But I. Interestingly as well, they thought that everybody should be learning it to. To kind of work on it so that they could bring something. So they got half of it. Like, we do need to bring something to God. But then that's just chaos, right, where you have people that just don't own instruments, whereas everybody can use their voice. So, yeah, some people do get it wrong with a sincere heart, but I think there's. There's a lot of that going on with a lot of other things.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Well, the last thing I'll say on this, Jack, then you, uh, you can take over here.
While I, of course, would disagree with all of those who are, you know, doing the rock band entertainment, community church swaying back and forth, you know, whatever it is, the one thing that I think they do and the one thing that I think they have, at least to some extent, for some of it, maybe it's insincere or a little bit fake or not genuine, whatever it is. But the one thing I think that they do have is they're.
They're. They're. They feel as though they are truly worshipping. And it is a yemenite, somewhat of a spiritual experience. You walk into a lot of Church of Christ on a Sunday morning, where we're just kind of routinely, you know, singing the words to amazing grace, or you look around the room and there's not a single smile to be seen. No emotion whatsoever. We're just kind of, you know, singing.
Yeah. That is one area that I am not a fan of, the way that we currently do things. Again, and not every single congregation, I know that there are some who. The singing is very passionate and emotion filled. Not in a lot of them. This is what, you know, I don't know how many listeners that we have of our home congregation, but this is one that I wish our congregation did a lot better job of as far as having a little bit of emotion with our singing, as opposed to just what it seems like is just going through the motions. Okay. We're supposed to sing three songs before the prayer and then one song after the Lord's supper, and then we sing like it just feels very routine. There doesn't seem like there's a lot of emotion and passion. I think a lot of people could probably say the same with their congregation. That is the one thing that I wish we would take from maybe the more community church type of, again, not the instruments part and not the we're here to entertain ourselves part, but their spirit seems to be involved and their emotions are involved in singing, whereas a lot of church of Christ, we are not. And again, that's an individual thing as well. But I also think making that an emphasis in your congregation, like, hey, we are here to sing songs of worship to God. And it's not just to check off the fact that we perform the. The singing act of worship so that we can call our worship acceptable. That's nothing. That's not the reason.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Well, go ahead.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: I was just gonna say. That's an interesting point, because, actually, Jack, I was gonna ask you on this. We already talked about the gnosticism. I do think gnosticism comes into the church of Christ more than almost anything else. And the reason I say that is because we really try to push out almost all emotion. We are on truth, except worship and spirit and truth. And I think the spirit part, we miss a lot of the time, to your point. Well, so, Jack, I was curious, your thoughts on the. Do you think that is a gnostic issue within the church of Christ where we are afraid to show emotion or we don't feel like we can connect emotion without. Maybe it's not narcissism. Maybe that's the wrong couching of it. Why do you think that is the case where we're so afraid to show emotion in that? And that includes, I guess we can. I don't know if we want to jump to this point, but the clapping and the hands and everything else, we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, we're very against it. Um, but I'm curious your thoughts on it.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: I don't think it's gnostic so much as it is just a different approach. And you kind of look, you trace the heritage of different, the way different religions and denominations and stuff formed and the way they did, and even out of the restoration and where it came from, and even where certain things came from, the German, like the Lutherans, they're not real big, expressive kind of people like that, because german people just aren't that way. And I, you see kind of the scottish irish influence on Presbyterianism, and then of course, the restorationist guys came out of that. And again, it is very stoic, straightforward, very logical and mathematical approach to the scriptures. And so you lose some of that. It is more of an eastern thing.
It's no wonder that pentecostalism took off more with Native Americans because they are an expressive people and joyful, loud dancing kind of people. And, and so I think that is an underrated factor in a lot of this stuff. Interesting that, that's not to say we're like just, that's not even an argument about the superiority of some. Obviously we're going to get to some of those things you talked about and why I'm not in favor of some of them. But the. So I've had members before who just loved to go to the christian rock concerts or were really drawn to the community church. And it was kind of the smoke coming of the smoke machines and light show and all that. And it feels like a concert. Oh, I just come out of that feeling so spiritual like. No, you're being manipulated. On the other hand, it is very easy to go, and that's why we need to come in here, sit down and sing amazing grace as slow as we can possibly do it, staring at the seat in the back in front, like to Will's point, there's a medium somewhere in there of joyfully, loudly singing. We're not loud. We don't like when somebody is loud. It's kind of like, hey, what's the deal with that guy? Like why can't we all just loudly sing? Why can't we passionately sing and with a smile on your face. And so bringing some of that emotion that Will is talking about is really important without it becoming emotionalism, without it becoming for the sake of the effect. Because as I said at the start, you do get chills, you do get that like that musical high out of certain experiences. And again, some are manipulating people into that, but there's also a very real one that we should be pursuing and you don't do it for the sake of that. But it's like when the singing is right and people, if you've been to one of those major conferences where there's like 5000 people singing, it moves you, but that can happen with 40 people.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. And then, Joe, if you want to get us into the next section here, you know, we did our fair share of kind of bashing church camps there on a couple episodes ago. But that is the one thing I'll say about church camp. You know, conferences, whatever. I've been a part of some instances of singing where, you know, maybe, you know, we shut the lights off or whatever it was, it was one of these where the only thing you were focused on was, was singing and then hearing everybody's voices. And you mentioned the chill bumps. It's like, whoa, this is something, this is something different. And because there was, it, what, there was loudness to it, there was like everybody was wanting, clearly wanting to sing. I think that's part of the problem with a lot of congregations is like, you look around, there's a lot of people that clearly don't really want to sing. They're just doing it because they feel like they have to. And so that is, I guess the one check mark in the favor of church camps or the conferences or whatever is you do get a little bit better picture of like, whoa, this is some really passionate and emotion filled singing that you don't get a lot of Sunday mornings. So, um, Joe, I don't know if you had any thoughts on that or if you want to go and get us into the next section with that.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: I want to add one thing before we moved on as kind of some of the arguments against, um, is that we, we brought up church history. The early church fathers, some of the reformers were big time. And I know a lot of people today look at the churches of Christ as all those backward people who don't have instruments.
Calvin and Luther, it's kind of disputed. He said some positive things, some negative things. It's kind of. You can go either way. Calvin, I thought this was interesting. Made the same point that Joe did about kind of fake Old Testament reenactment. He said in popery, referring to the Catholics, there was a ridiculous and unsuitable imitation of the Jews. While they adorn their temples and value themselves as having made the worship of God more splendid and inviting, they employed organs and many other such ludicrous things by which the word and worship of God are exceedingly profaned, the people being much more attached to those rights than to the understanding of the divine word. Everything we're just talking about, boy, man, the music's so pretty. We don't really care about the preaching or what's being said by the music, but sure. Sounds nice. This is Calvin. And so it is so funny to me that the churches of Christ get the reputations like, oh, you dumb dumbs who just are anti piano. Like, some of your heroes are that way, too, guys. I mean, like, let's read a little bit of history here.
[00:34:23] Speaker C: Very, very interesting, obviously.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: But, yeah. And again, Luther had some that I would like to draw on him, but it is a little more complex. He might have been for it might not. But Calvin is a pretty big name, and he was with us on that. So you heard it here first.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: Jack's a calvinist.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: There you go.
Yeah, but I mean, like, what a quote, right?
[00:34:45] Speaker C: Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. And, boy, I love that. I love that point that we didn't just start this in 1906 with the splitting of the disciples of Christ and Church of Christ. I think a lot of people look at that because we were split over church or over instruments in 1906, and a lot of people look at that as, like, that's okay. That's where we went off. Like, no, this is historically where it's been. But, guys, we're talking about bringing out the emotion. This is where people push the envelope, quote, unquote. And that's what I think in this next session. What I want to discuss, how far can we go? How far can we push it to enhance the music, to enhance the worship, to make it as good as possible? Because before we get into some of the other things, we'll start with. Jack, you already referenced this. We'll start with something like a song leader. A song leader can enhance the worship. Is a song leader wrong? No, I don't think so. Somebody to get up there.
Yeah, exactly. Well, will, I'm not. I'm perfectly fine because I don't ever song lead. But will's in trouble. He's a good song leader.
No, but, I mean, I don't think any of us would say that's wrong. I don't think any of us would say using a pitch pipe and getting the pitch correct is wrong.
But why aren't those wrong? I guess that's the first question before we get into this, because this is going to kind of lay out the structure by which we can say, is this good or bad? Why is it not wrong to use a song leader? To use a pitch pipe?
[00:36:03] Speaker B: Things like that, you get the aid in addition argument, like, are you changing fundamentally, doing something different, or you just aiding what you're already going to do? Which I think makes sense. I think one of the other things about doing things decently in an order is, yeah, somebody's got to be heading it up. Somebody's got to be kind of picking or at least starting the songs. If you've ever been to one of those things of, like, where there's not one and it's a devo and it's just, oh, we'll start singing and you'll have two people start singing songs at the same time and like, yeah, no, it's probably good to have somebody kind of stepping up and starting the first note for everybody. And the pitch pipe thing, people go, oh, that's. That's an instrument. Like, well, yeah, if a guy got up there and played a whole tune on that, number one, I'd be really impressed. But number two, like, that's. That's not what's going on there. And so I feel like that's such a goofy gotcha argument with that one. Like, it's clearly not what's happening here.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: Same thing with, like, well, in the blues with a pitch pipe. That'd be hilarious.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: They'll say it about, like, PowerPoint. Well, PowerPoint's, you know, changing the way that you worship. And so that's pretty much the same.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: It's like, sorry, the microphone.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, the sound system and all that. Like, are you fundamentally changing the way the worship is structured with instruments? Absolutely. With a microphone where the sounds just louder, or, you know, with PowerPoint, where it's transitioning from a whiteboard to a projector on a screen. I mean, to me, that's pretty common sense thing to distinguish. Does it fundamentally change the worship or does it nothing?
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Hey, folks, I know a lot of you are looking for more christian content for your daily walk. Of course, we often tell you about focus plus and the daily Devos and other content that goes up there. Of course we have this podcast. Think deeper. We have the Jim podcast, godly young man by Joe and Will. But I want to also tell you about the church reset podcast feed. Every article I put out on my website, jackwilkey, co goes up on the church Reset podcast feed along with audio from all of the videos I post to the Focus press, YouTube like cultural breakdown, masculinity Monday and Thursdays through the text. And so if you're looking for something to listen to while you're doing chores around the house or on the go, check out the church Reset podcast feed. Subscribe to get all the latest content as it comes out four or five days a week.
[00:38:14] Speaker C: Perfect. So we have our, our structure here and kind of how we're going to run things through. So let's start. What about choirs?
Some people would say, oh my word, oh my word.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: Here we go.
[00:38:28] Speaker C: Yeah, this guy. So what about choirs? Some churches, I don't know that I would be attending a church with a choir, but some churches may look at that and go, it's enhancing the worship. We're going to put the best. And this is going to go along with, I would say, I think we have on your praise teams and micing people.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: I was going to say, is that the same as a praise?
[00:38:47] Speaker C: All of those kind of what I think it all kind of goes together, which is we're going to take the best of the best and let them be part of. Everybody else can sing along. Okay. Everybody else can sing along, but we're going to let them kind of stand up there and lead. And so they're taking, what is the song leader? A singular person. And let's put 20 people up there who are fantastic and they'll help. What are your thoughts?
[00:39:07] Speaker A: So in my first year, my being. There's two problems with that one, Joe, you just said the word. They'll get up there and lead. Well, the first problem is I, most choirs, praise teams, whatever, are not all men. There are women that are in the, involved in the praise team or the choir, whatever it is. And so by placing them up front or putting them in a certain position, regardless of what you call it, I mean, Joe, you just said it. They are leading in some way. They are leading in the singing. So that would be my first problem with it, is that it's placing women in a position where, listen, you can just read the New Testament and pretty clearly see that the Bible does not authorize women taking any kind of leadership role, that's a different episode. But to me, it ties into this point with choirs or praise teams. God did not set in motion a church structure plan where women are to be leading. They do in praising the choir. So that'd be the first thing. But then the other thing would be what we just discussed in the sense of it's taking it away from the original plan of everybody brings something, we're all contributing this together and more. So. Yeah, but this person, these four people, or this ten people, their contributions are worth way more. So why don't everybody else just kind of follow them? You know, they're gonna be kind of the central part of the singing. Everybody else just kind of follow along.
I don't know. To me that that is. That is different and that's not originally the way that it was supposed to be. According to New Testament of where everybody's coming together and singing, you know, encouraging each other songs and spiritual songs. No. Here's ten, or again, 410. Twelve people or whatever that are pretty much doing it and everybody else can just follow along. Those would be. Those are my thoughts. Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Where somebody would say, well, if you got a song leader, why not have a few? You're right. It is fundamentally different. Uh, one guy starting the song where. I mean, I've seen song leaders who are very much up there performing. Yeah, I'd be against that too. Even if it's one guy. We're not here to watch really talented people perform. I'll say. As an aside, whoever came up with the term praise team is just so bad at branding. That is so squishy. Sound like it sounds like glee club. You know, like, oh, the praise team. Like, it's just kind of. That's an aside. But, uh, you hear this a lot with things like this. But also the same with. With instruments of. God gave me this gift and I just. I want to share it with everybody. Interestingly, in the New Testament, there's a lot of gifts spoken of. Musician is not any of them. Even song leader is. Is not one of them. And we kind of. Sometimes people in the church will say that, well, you know, people have different gifts to give to the church. We've got song leaders and things like that. It is good to have people who know what they're doing musically. Again, we are better off if will song leading than me or Joe. But this is not a spiritual gift. This is a physical talent which you can use. I mean, you can use physical talents to help the church. The guy who's good at woodworking. That's a physical talent he can use and contribute to things in the church, for sure. But when it comes to the worship of the church, people really like, falling back on that of, like, God gave me a musical gift, and I need to contribute that to the church by participating in a choir or by being in the band or whatever.
Find that in the text. It's just. It's really not there.
[00:42:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I. The only thing I'd add to that, I think you guys covered it very well. It's not really adding, but just come coming back to the point of priesthood. And Will, you said this, like, everybody has to be able to bring it, because if we're putting praise teams, we're putting a choir up there that's not that much different than a rock band, when you think about it. You know, we had the Pentatonix come and perform for us type of thing. Like, all eyes are on them. All eyes are looking at the. The best of the best.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: It's focused on them and not God also.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: Correct. Not on God and not on what I can bring. Like, boy, I'm not them. That's not the point of worship. Music is to go, boy, I don't have a voice like them. The point is for everybody to sing out with everything that they have and not putting the. Because that's the. The point you made, Will, about women leading. Okay, well, we'll just mic them from the audience.
They won't lead. We'll just mic them from the audience. It's not a leadership thing. Right. Like, it's still same issue. You're taking the best of that. Well, it's enhanced the worship. Like, what you're telling everybody, like me, is thanks, but no thanks. You know what I mean? Like, you go ahead and keep your voice a little bit low. We'll do the best, because God wants best. No, I think God wants my voice, too. And I'm supposed to sing out, as bad as it may be, you know, God wants me to sing out as well and give him my very best and not just hand that, you know, farm that to somebody else for them to do it for me. So I think that goes against it.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Well, guys. And the difference between that and the song leader, because, again, people can point to, well, you've got one guy up there. Why not have multiple, the very best song leaders?
They'll start the verse, and they immediately. They get everybody going, and their voice becomes one of many. Like, they get everyone to join them. This is very much. We're not joining you, we're way ahead of you. You're looking up to us. And it's not uncommon. I've talked to people been in those situations. It's not uncommon for other people to just stop singing. Like, it encouraged.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Like, what's the point?
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah, like, they're better than me, I'll just listen to them do it. And so, yeah, again, totally different thing than what a good song leader is supposed to do.
[00:44:01] Speaker C: So a few more questions here. I'm going to cover clapping, though. I want to come back around to traveling groups here. Thoughts on clapping, getting into a. Showing emotion, right. Maybe even the raising of hands. We didn't talk about that one, but the raising of hands, you see this where they're kind of swaying back and forth at, you know, almost as though.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: It'S concert Tim Hawkins thing, the carry, the tv, the touchdown.
[00:44:22] Speaker C: Classic. Classic. So. But, yeah, where do we fall on that? When some people, and I would say at african american congregations, they can't get into this, and they're very emotion driven in some of that. And if you go, the singing is incredibly powerful, but they have people calling out, you know, during the songs and taking different verses and like, it's more. I hesitate to use the word theatrical, but it is kind of there. There's more emotion for sure to it. What are thoughts on that and on clapping and kind of going along to the beat of the song and everything else?
[00:44:55] Speaker A: So I think I've been raised, because I've been raised church Christ my whole life, the. The idea of clapping has always been.
I've been very hesitant, not super comfortable with it, you know, been in places where, you know, maybe a african american congregation or when we go down to the. Been down in the Caribbean before dad's spoken, and they've done some of that, and it's always like, something about that I don't like. And I wonder if part of it is simply because it's an additional.
It's an additional noise added to the music that is not our voices. That would be the first thing that I would bring up of, okay, you know, you're keeping the beat or whatever by clapping your hands and, you know, it's not an instrument, but at the same time, you're doing more than singing, you know, with your voice and making melody that way. On the other hand, I have seen people who just get so fired up about this, basically, like, anybody who's doing that during their singing is, you know, not on the narrow way and is, you know, in blatant sin. And part of me is. Okay, hold on. That maybe that's a little bit far, too. I always have brought up here. Maybe I feel like sometimes this, this might sound insane, but I feel like sometimes God might be looking down on us going, are they really getting into the weeds about all this? Mainly the clapping, of course. Like, you know, stuff like this. Well, I don't clap, but, man, I tap my foot during the song and, you know, that makes, that makes a little noise. Not like, you know, so I don't know. I'm not a fan of it. You won't ever find me clapping during worship. But, you know, if I were to go to, I know a lot of people, if they were to go to a congregation where maybe a couple people were, they'd get up and walk out and leave, just, well, this worship isn't valid anymore. And I, again, I understand why that they would say that it's an additional noise. It's, it's not your voice.
At the same time, I guess I'm not quite as, like, if I walked into a place and they had a praise team up there, I'm probably not sticking around. If I walked in and a couple people, maybe half the congregation was, was clapping along, I would be very uncomfortable. But I don't know that I would just up and leave, like I would for, again, maybe a praise team or something else.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: Well, to the opposite side, I guess, where I would push back. I don't disagree with you, actually, but just for the fun of it.
Okay, well, we are the instrument and you could say the voices, but who's to say, like, I'm nothing playing an instrument. I am using my body, which I, my body is the temple. Right. And so my clapping is the two hands that God gave me. And im just going to go along with that. Im not adding anything mechanical, mechanical instruments of workshop we hear. Right. Like, its not mechanical. Its part of me and part of my body. So thats how I might push back on that. I agree with you. It does make me more on the uncomfortable end. But then theres part of it, like, is that just because thats why I was raised. If I grew up in a congregation that did it, would I see it as wrong? It's different for me, but would I see it as wrong? Jacob, what are your thoughts on this? Because I'm, I agree with will.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I don't know that that's very good argumentation because you'd say that about anything. People who grow up with instruments don't, don't see a true way.
[00:47:41] Speaker C: I can't necessarily point to scripture that says, this is wrong. The way I might be able to with other things is what I'm saying. Unless you think we can.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: I mean, you would just extrapolate the same idea of voice. Lips. You know, it's always talking about kind of coming from here, but, I mean, you could go the other way if. If you're the person on that other side and point to the psalms. Talk about clapping and shouting to the Lord with joy and all that. I think psalm 47, verse one. And so that's in there. But obviously, we don't take instruments from the psalms. And I don't know, I. We used to have area wide fellowships when I was in East Texas, and there was, as you said, african american congregations. And one of the guys, he didn't clap throughout the whole song. It wasn't like he was up there clapping. He was a very dynamic song leader. And just like, at the start of a verse or at the start of a chorus, he would kind of, you know, like two or three times to get the beat, and it was kind of like, is he clapping? Is he. And it kind of to Will's point of like, if everybody just got up and walked out at that point, it would feel like, okay, that maybe. Maybe it's a bit of an overreaction here, but maybe some people would. I don't know, I.
If he had spent the whole song clapping along to it and everybody else in there was. I would kind of feel a little weird about that. I don't think that's because I do think there comes a point in which it does detract from your voice. It detracts from what you're trying to do there. And so, yeah, I mean, this.
[00:49:02] Speaker C: See, some.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: Okay, well, I'm going to say this real quick. There's going to be some people who are like, oh, they said somebody might not go to hell if they clap their hands. Can we grant that? There's a little bit of a spectrum here between you've got a rock band up there and somebody clapping their hands, and then you've got only a capella singing, which is what we advocate here. Like, yeah, they're. They're somewhere in the middle. They're not fully. I mean, somebody might categorize them as all the way over the rock band. It's not like. Let's use our sense here a little bit.
[00:49:32] Speaker C: Yeah, you have some songs like Hosanna shout hallelujah. Right. Clapping is a natural part of that. Right. I mean, there's just a part of.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: The song should we avoid songs like BBS here.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: I was going to say that. I was exactly going to say, like the one I mean, to tee Joe.
[00:49:47] Speaker C: Up here, you know, me and my.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: If we're going to be all anti clapping, which, again, not a huge fan of it, we got to kick out some of VBS songs at this point. Sorry.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: That is pretty stomping is okay.
[00:49:59] Speaker C: And the.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Shoot the artillery.
[00:50:01] Speaker C: Shoot the artillery is okay. That's not really a clap. I'm just shooting artillery.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: And you know what? Nod your head.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:11] Speaker C: Beatboxers, guys. Beatboxers. Okay. No, just kidding.
[00:50:15] Speaker B: Please don't.
[00:50:16] Speaker C: It is coming from the voice.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: I don't come to church to get spat upon, so. No.
[00:50:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Well. Well, anyway. No, I think it is a difficult thing.
I don't have a full answer on it. It does.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: We've all given one of those, like, answers.
[00:50:30] Speaker C: I was gonna say it's kind of one of those we are taking. Better safe than sorry. It is definitely nothing. Not for us. I do think that we are very clearly, you know, from the lips. That's what it's commanded. Yeah. No, I'm not going to condemn anybody for clapping, per se, but I think it can go too far to Jack's point. So it is one of those things. Have I clapped along with Hosanna before at some devote? Yeah, I'm sure I have. Not that I remember, but I'm sure I have.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: As you're singing through, I guess you are.
[00:50:55] Speaker C: Good for you. Jack's got a special place in heaven, guys. So good for him.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: Just don't apply.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[00:51:02] Speaker C: I think we can. When we get to heaven Temple. Where's your.
[00:51:05] Speaker A: That? You all. You have that debate, too, of clapping after baptisms.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I know.
[00:51:10] Speaker C: I was thinking about that. Well, I look at that like, yeah, it's not a performance. So I never. You know, but then it's kind of funny because you can tell the congregations that are sound. Amen. Amen. Amen. Everybody says amen. And you can't pump your fist like, yeah, I'm in a sound play. No, it's not.
It's not performative, which is why I don't think the clapping, and they may say the same thing about the music is it's not intended to be performative. But I also see that as an outflowing sometimes of the spirit. And you see that, like, again, black carnival. It's a celebration. Yeah, it's just a celebration. And I have a difficult time looking down on somebody who's celebrating God in and, yeah, you can take that real far. Like you're celebrating God with the violin. Like, no, but still, it's done through emotion. Guys, I want to ask before we. We got a few other things we want to get to real fast, because this may, there may be a question. We had singing youth at Denver. There are those, I think Abilene has some. And they're like, I don't know if free does, but they have these choirs that go around and like, they sing at congregations.
Usually they wrap up the service and then they'll have the performance after, kind of as a concert. There are some people that got really uncomfortable with that. Where do we fall on that? What are your thoughts? I know I'm asking all the questions, which works out for me, but I am curious, like, where do we fall on? It's. It's choir, but it's not part of the worship.
[00:52:24] Speaker A: Joe's going to get to go first on the christian music on the radio point. We'll just go ahead and make that declaration now.
We had this growing up congregation that I grew up in the youth group for. They had a, I think it was Lipscomb singing group that would come. And the way they did it was they'd have an abbreviated worship, 1520 minutes worth of worship Devo, instead of a sermon thing. And then the choir group, concert, sing group, whatever would do the last 30, 45 minutes, always a meal after and stuff. But they did, they did make it clear it was separate from, from worship. So I'll say that I'm not a huge fan of doing it that way, in the sense of like, yeah, we're going to shorten our worship to God so these guys can get up and perform. Not a huge fan of that. If you're going to do it, I think you have the full worship.
And then as far as them doing it before, after, as long as it's separate from worship, I don't really have a problem with it. Again, I agree. The congregation I grew up with made a. Did a good job of making it clear this is not worship. What they did do, though, unfortunately, was, again, had a 15 minutes service and then the singing group got 45 minutes. Like, yeah, not a huge fan of that. Similar to the congregations that, well, we're gonna do a 15 minutes Devos tonight, coincidentally on Super Bowl Sunday night. Like, don't love that. If you're not. If you're gonna have worship, don't change it for that. So those are my, those are my only thoughts on it.
[00:53:40] Speaker C: So I agree.
[00:53:42] Speaker B: We. This was a big debate when I was in preaching school and because the Denver one would come around and some students loved it and some boycotted it. And I was kind of not sure about it, but one of my classmates, he kind of mic dropped the whole thing. He said, yeah, I just, you know, I love that they get to the end and go, this is not worship. Now sit back and listen while we sing hallelujah, praise Jehovah. Like, all right, fair enough. Like, is it worship or is it not? And if it's not worship, why are you singing songs about God? And if, if it is worship, why are you singing to us and we're not? And I've seen some that encourage people to participate, but then it just becomes the choir praise team thing again, where most people are not. They're going to listen to them and it's kind of this whole thing. Well, we're here to encourage you, but it's like, but it's singing and speaking to one another in psalms, him spiritual songs. And you're performing for us. I just don't like performative worship. I like, I feel like mixing those two things is, is strange.
[00:54:38] Speaker C: Is so I know where Jack stands on christian music on the radio, then.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Not, not the biggest fan.
But that, that's still your question to answer first. You're trying to wriggle out of that. So before, while we're still in the choirs, I mean, that is kind of the sticking point of it is if it's worship, because that's a good point. Well, it's. People say, well, it's not worship because it's not a worship service. And the five acts of worship, like, that's, that's a different thing. Worship as in praise to God and the Christians praising God. And we do a weird, really weird thing of, like, we said the opening prayer, we said the closing prayer. And so within those bounds, we've got to follow rules. And now that we're outside of those bounds, well, the rules don't count. Like, I don't know about that because I wouldn't have a woman get up and give a talk to the whole congregation after the final amen. Like, I wouldn't break other rules. So I'm not sure why we do that one.
[00:55:32] Speaker C: That's a really good point. That's a really good point. Because I was thinking with the christian music on the radio, similar lines. Yeah, yeah. Similar lines. Because I do think it comes together in that, which is I've always avoided at first. I just think it's not great music personally, but that's not necessarily. That's. Yeah, well. But I do think it's difficult for me to be singing these songs. You know, this is a really, really difficult one because I've thought a lot about this. You know, this is crazy to admit, but one of my favorite albums a few years ago was Jesus is King from Kanye West. A lot of people hated it and said it was terrible music. Will, I know you were out on it. I don't think you liked it at all. I thought I, for Kanye saying, like, whoa, this is incredible. He's quoting scripture and he's doing all sorts of stuff. And I guess, shock.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that didn't last.
[00:56:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that did not age well. Did not age well. But other than time, like, the fact that Kanye west is talking about Adam and Eve and singing scriptures and things like that was just wild.
But then you kind of catch yourself and go, huh. So I haven't really listened to it as much because then I started to kind of feel convicted as to maybe it's not right to have these, you know, to have these songs that are singing. But then the argumentation. This is why it's so difficult. The argumentation goes to the flip side, which is so you're willing to listen to drugs and sex and rock and roll, but you're not willing to listen to positive things on the radio because, okay, this one is not worship to God, so you can basically listen to that. But this one is worship to God. So you can't listen to uplifting things. You can't listen to encouraging things. And at what point does. Can they mention God in the lyrics without it? Can they? 21 pilots has things that seem to reference Christianity. Can I listen to things that reference Christianity without it being like, it really is the spectrum of where does one begin and one end, Hillsong and things like that. Yeah, I think that's pretty, you know, to me, I look at that as kind of, to Jack's point about the choirs. I'm out on that. But then there's some really uplifting things. They're talking about what Jesus has done in their life, and I feel that's less worship led worshipful, if that makes sense. So I'm not answering the question just because. Exactly. It's incredibly subjective. So.
[00:57:39] Speaker A: So let me.
So I'm curious, your guys thoughts on this argument. First of all, kind of what I always go to is there are. There is some level to which you are listening to the christian music for. And not everybody's like this, but for entertainment's the wrong way, but like, I want to center my mind on better things. I want to center my mind on spiritual things, on God. And so I'm going to play that instead of, you know, the top 20 pop hits that are on right now. And for me, that's really. That's really hard to argue against. Again, the position of, well, right. It's better to listen to, I don't know, fill in the better listen to Taylor Swift, for instance, than it is to listen to the christian music. I can't get there. I mentally cannot get there for somebody saying that it is flat wrong to listen to, you know, a christian song with instruments, but it's not flat wrong to listen to Taylor Swift. Or again, it doesn't have to be Taylor Swift. Maybe that's a bad example, like, like a country song or a rock and roll song or whatever it is. That, to me, is not consistent. I do think there is a difference in songs about God versus songs that are actually praising God. I think you can. You can tell a difference there. Songs about the christian life song, I think of. I can only imagine that mercy me song that got real big back in 2006.
That one's one of those where it's like, is it praising God? Is it just talking about heaven? So I don't know. Obviously not really answering the question there. I personally don't have a problem with it. I think, again, I feel like there's. There's a level of, I would rather if I had the choice of my kids can only listen to that or my kids can only listen to the, the top charts on the pop, you know, pop radio station or country station. I'm sorry. I'm going to go with the songs that are about God, the songs that are spiritually minded. So, yeah, maybe that's a bad argument. I'm curious your guys's thoughts on it. I just, I can't get to the. To a spot where it's like, okay, it's better to listen to throw in the blank pop star as opposed to a Christian spiritually minded song. That's kind of always been where I'm at.
[00:59:41] Speaker C: I think it's a matter of conscience, personally, and it's really, really difficult to argue with that one. I think if a person finds it to be perfectly fine and wants their mind on it, this is one of those will, as you mentioned earlier, is God looking down at us going, okay, guys, like, it's going to be okay type of thing. I don't know. I don't want to be wrong. I mean, I certainly don't want to be wrong in that, and I don't.
[01:00:03] Speaker A: Want to understand the people that would say, I'm better to be safe than sorry, so I'm just not going to listen to it. I get that as well.
[01:00:09] Speaker C: Sure, sure. I don't have a problem. Like, I've never had a major problem with it. I certainly don't judge other people for it. It's matter of conscience for me as to if I really feel like I'm going out of my way to listen to worship music with instruments I get ready on Sunday mornings with praise and harmony and Keith Lancaster. And so that's all acapella and that. That's kind of what gets me in the right mindset. So if I'm going to listen to, like, worship music, I'll listen to that. Um, but, yeah, your argumentation is difficult.
[01:00:34] Speaker B: You could also say, well, if you're willing to listen to a capella over your phone, why, you won't. Can't you listen to a group in church? I mean, like, this is all much.
[01:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's still technically entertainment.
[01:00:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:44] Speaker C: I mean, I'm singing along, too, warming up my voice. Yeah.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: I mean, I guess, but it's kind of like, okay, do you have to sing along to it and all this stuff?
[01:00:52] Speaker A: And in all of those groups, there's typically women. So are they leading? Yeah, exactly.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Like trying to make black and white out of just incredibly gray stuff, innovations and stuff like that. And I think you guys are right to pull it back to the individual's heart, the individual's discernment, and more than anything, are you doing this out of a heart of sincerity to God? And, boy, I know people really hate that, where it's kind of like God's going to judge things subjectively. Like romans 14 tells us that, that something, that one person, it would be a sin for them to do is not for somebody else, based on if they think they should or they think they're doing it unto goddess that matters. And so on. Things like this, where there is not a book, chapter, verse, you take the principles you have, and God's going to look and say, all right, they had the same principles. But one came to this conclusion because they want to be right with me and they want to do what's pleasing to me. Another came to the conclusion of, I'm going to do what I want or I'm right and everybody else is wrong. I mean, like it. This is the, this is why it's think deeper podcast and, yeah, why people.
[01:01:52] Speaker C: Are going to be ticked that we haven't come to any of definitive conclusion, but, yeah, that is the conclusion is go with your heart on this one.
Is the heart trying to please God? And if the heart is pleasing to God and you say, man, I'm out on it, well, then that's what you think is pleasing to God. And if you feel that it's more pleasing to God to put your mind on the things of God and. And that's your argumentation. And that's what you stand behind. And you think that you can stand in the judgment and, you know, stand in front of God for that, then, yeah. That you're the one standing in judgment. I'm not standing in judgment for you, so you have to make that call on your own.
[01:02:25] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I was just gonna say, now I'll save it for the deep end. We'll save it for the deep end.
[01:02:31] Speaker C: We do have some things. We do have some things we want to cover in the deep end, so stay tuned. Ways we can.
[01:02:36] Speaker B: New songs, things like that.
[01:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that'll be good.
[01:02:39] Speaker C: Ways we can improve the Devo songs and, you know, should be singing all the Devo songs and the Jesus is my boyfriend songs and, you know, spoiler alert on where I stand on some.
[01:02:47] Speaker A: Of those, but might have some debate on that one, then I think.
[01:02:49] Speaker C: Yeah, we might. We might. So that'd be good. So stick around for the deep end. If you're members of focus plus. If you're not, join focus plus. We'd love to have you with the discussion and to get more of your thoughts and questions on this. So anyway, guys, anything else we want to cover before we wrap up? All right, this will wrap us up, but thank you for listening. We will talk to you again next week.
