[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Think Deeper podcast. I'm your co host, Will Harib, joined by Joe and Jack Wilke. I for 01:00 a.m. extremely excited about today's episode. This is the third installment, I believe, of our question and answer episodes. We did one at the end of the year, our first year doing it. Really, really enjoyed. I got some great questions and then did one, I think it was only a couple months later, it wasn't too long after that, middle of the year, maybe of the year after. And I believe this is our third one that we've kind of opened it up for everybody to ask questions. And as always, our deep thinkers deliver. You guys have got some great questions here, some, some tough questions as always, or not. Not really throwing us any softballs here. So I'm really excited to get into it. We've got a lot. So I will say we are not going to rush any of these questions. We're not going to try to speed run it. And so there may be some that get left to another episode, maybe next week. So I haven't fully decided, but we want to give each question kind of the respect it deserves because we appreciate all of you giving us the feedback and submitting these questions. So, um, with that being said, guys, um, any introductory thoughts? I think, Joe, you're going to kick off the first question. We, again, we've got a lot. What is this? At least 20 or so, maybe. Maybe right around there. So take it away, Joe.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: All righty. All right. We got one on focus plus, actually, and the question says, I would like to see a discussion on the type of judgments we can and cannot make.
Fellas, what types of judgments can we make? That's big in the world? Don't judge. Right? Don't judge lest you be judged. You see the, there are various scriptures actually on judging. James goes into judging.
They could pull out a bunch of different ones. But what judgments are we as christians allowed to make with people?
[00:01:50] Speaker C: I think you start, yeah. Obviously that you're not allowed to make hypocritical judgments.
The person who has the huge log in their eye, he's telling you not to do that. But as we've established before, that is that section is not a prohibition against any kind of judgment. That would be ridiculous. Imagine a world in which you couldn't say anything is right or wrong or anybody's in the wrong. You couldn't even have the court system. And so there is judgment to be made. Um, it. So you're asking what you can. Well, number one, it's non hypocritical. Take the log out of your own eye. First. Um, second, I think another do not is in, uh, in Romans 14, don't act as each other's judges on matters of opinion. Obviously, you still have to establish what a matter of opinion is then. That's kind of the sticky territory with that. But at least you need to have a few things that you, you look at and say, you know what? I wouldn't do it that way. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I'm not supposed to judge them on that. And so you asked me what judgments we can make. I gave you, I think, the two scriptural do nots. What do you guys have for that? We can.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: I think we have to get into what judgment we're talking about. Because you look at the end of one corinthians five, what is it, verse twelve where it talks about who are we to basically judge the world?
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: What do we have with judging outsiders? We're not sending them. We're not the ones who ultimately judges them and says them to hell. That's God's role, as he says in verse 13.
You could look at judgment in terms of, we send people to help. No, we don't judge in that way at the final judgment. But I do think, Jack, to your point, like, and going to Matthew seven, we absolutely have the ability to judge in terms of seeing good fruit, bad fruit, you'll know them by their fruits is later in Matthew seven, Jesus, don't.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Catch your pearls before Swan, I think.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: John 724. Yeah.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: So I think we can look at people's fruit and say, this is not of God. Are we the ones sending them to hell? No, but we can say, you are on a path to hell. And I think that's the judgment we can make.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Well, that's exactly the difference that I was going to try to illuminate. There is when people say, you know, don't judge me or you can't judge, what they typically mean is you can't, you can't condemn me, you can't, you know, say that XYZ is wrong. Like, the definition of judging, I think, has kind of taken a bit of a detour from what it actually means. But I do think, I mean, Jack, I was going to reference John 724. Jack referenced it a second ago about Jesus saying, you judge with righteous judgment. We do that all the time, you know, as was already said. And there, I think there are elements that, especially when you're talking about raising a family, when you're talking about who are you going to spend time with? Who are, you know, what, what are things that you're going to do at your congregation with various, you know, people, fellowship and stuff. Sometimes there are judgments that need, that you need to make discernment type of choices, righteous judgment, things like that. With, once again, like, I'm not going to let my kids hang out with that person. I'm not going to give my kids, you know, social media. I'm not going to send my kids to public school as obviously we are. We were big supporters of not doing stuff like that. Again, people would look at, oh, so you're judging those who are sending the Kerokeans public school? Like, in a way. Yeah. Like I'm saying that I don't think that's a good idea, but am I condemning them? No. And so that's where the big difference has to come in to me. But again, people have gotten so laser focused into this idea of, well, you can't judge me. You can't judge me. People do all the time. And I think it's typically, if somebody's kind of up in arms about judgments that people are making, typically they probably have something that they are maybe a bit ashamed of, something that they know deep down is probably, probably not right. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, Joe, it's your big thing about, like if you, if somebody insults you about something you don't believe, who cares? I don't really care. And so if somebody, you know, says, well, you're judging me about my clothing, for instance, maybe there's a little, maybe there's a little bit more to that.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So the funny thing is when somebody's like, well, you say adultery is wrong, you can't judge me. Your homosexuality, that's, you can't judge me. Like, that's literally not a judgment. It's, the Bible says, plain as day, black and white, this is right, this is wrong. And you did that.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: And it's objective, right?
[00:05:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's totally objective. Judgment really is.
There's a subjectivity to it. And again, we're defining terms. You can use judgment as condemnation. You can use it as discernment. You can use it as different things. That's where binding comes into it. No, don't bind in your judgment. So I want to give the people or the person who asked this a little bit of practical on things like that. You mentioned public school judgment. It is my judgment that is the better thing to do. Can I judge it and say, well, you stand condemned if you don't send your kid, if you don't send your kid to a private christian school or homeschool them. No, you have to be careful not to make a judgment that goes beyond the bounds of scripture. But when you put those principles together, you can absolutely judge. We did a whole episode on good, better, best. And so that's a judgment in itself. And so judging and saying, I don't think that person made the best decision.
You're allowed to do that as long as you're not binding, condemning where God hasn't condemned and you're not letting it impact your relationship with them. Just to say, well, I don't think that was the right call or, you know, that from everything I understand, that was is not how I would do it. Public school is one, that there's a million of those good, better bests, you know, of dating, of just different things like that that we've covered before.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Well, and I'd only add just before, just before we get to the next one. When it comes to judging the world or when it comes to judging people, judging christians that you think are going to hell, there's a lot of that, actually a lot more in the church, Christ, than we like to admit. Obviously, we've dealt with our fair share of people very much condemning us. And that happens. I mean, we have to be very careful within the church of judging to the point of condemnation. When there are, as we've talked about, the secondary, tertiary matters, things like that, we have to be careful with those things. So. Well, sorry.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Will you, I was just going to say, when it's not crystal clear, you got to be very careful.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So that would be the only other thing I'd add to this comment is if you are going to judge to the point of condemning people or saying they're going to hell, you better know that is the point, in my opinion, of Matthew seven one. Like, hey, the measure you use for your, for others is going to be used against you. And when you have everybody and their dog going to hell because of, well, they do this wrong and they do that wrong, just be aware, if God judges you by that measure, that's going to be a very scary thing. So we have to be very careful on what the measure we use to judge others when it comes to the condemnation judgments to the other side of what we're talking about.
All right, fellas, number two. Who wants to get us in the number two?
[00:08:17] Speaker C: You were just working down the list, right?
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: I think so, yeah, I love this question. Post op, care for the recently baptized. What is the church's responsibility to these people? Is it heavily on the elders to guide incorrect or equally on all members? The handling would be different, I assume, if it was a twelve year old who has been in the congregation since birth versus a 35 year old that has only been introduced to the gospel that year. What responsibilities are we to give the new brothers and sisters? What should we be doing for them?
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Giving them a brand new copy of Jack's book.
[00:08:44] Speaker C: There you go. Sunday school catch, right? Yeah. Pick up a copy for him.
I don't talk about it that much. I am putting out each of the entries for free, slowly, little by little, on my Bible 101 site. So check that out.
But yeah, I've got a lot of thoughts on this one. I'll let you guys go and then I'll kind of wrap it.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: Well to the first question of does it heavily on the elders to guide and correct? My answer would be yes, absolutely. My answer would be that it does primarily fall to the elders, seeing as that's really the purpose for their position, to shepherd the flock, to take care of people's souls. And so, yeah, I mean, if somebody is recently baptized, whether that's a 1516 year old who is still under their parents roof, obviously it's still, you know, it would be falling to their parents as well. But, you know, if I'm a part of an eldership, I want to make sure that that 16 year old has the resources like we just mentioned with Jack's book or you, you know, maybe make sure that we know what they're learning in class and do they have a, you know, good level of Bible knowledge? I don't want to be very involved in those things, but especially if it's, you know, somebody in their, you know, middle to later stages in life who's been introduced to the gospel. I definitely think it falls on the elders and I, obviously it doesn't mean that the individual members cannot help, um, cannot do what they can. I think of, you know, a. Maybe a special level of attention and care towards them should be extended. You know, just even little things like seeking. Seeking them out at worship service to speak to them, checking in with them, obviously inviting people over to your home for meals is huge with new. With new converts, new families, just opening up your home to them, really making sure they're included in every single Bible specific activity that you can, even non Bible specific. But like, if there's a Bible study going on, hey, make sure they know about it and make sure that you extend a personal invitation to them. So, yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff individuals can and should do, but I think if you're, you know, the responsibility pie, so to speak, I mean, 75, 80% of it falls on the elders, I think.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah, Joe, I would agree with that. I think I was going to, as I was looking at that, you know, twelve to twelve, verse 35 year old. This is something churches have to be very careful with, is sometimes, I think because the twelve year old grew up in church, everybody knows him and he's under his parents roof a lot of times. Those are the ones that don't ever get talked to, they don't ever get discipled because it's like, oh, oh, you know, mom and dad will, that's not really my job. I know we've known them for a long time. They grow up in the church, right. He'll just continue to go to his.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Or they already know everything they need to know. They've been here forever.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They, they kind of know. It's easy to look at the 35 year old who just came in, who's just on fire for God. He came out of a life of drug addiction or whatever it is, and like, this is everything to him. You're not going to see that from the twelve year old, per se. You're not going to see that from a kid who just grew up going to church. It's like, all right, another Sunday. Even though it is a monumental shift. Obviously, he went from being dead to being alive. And we need to celebrate that. But we also, I think we as a church need to do a better job of really working with and discipling those who grew up in the church. Is it everybody's job? Not necessarily. I think it's primarily the parents job. But I guess all I'm saying is like, encourage those kids who were baptized into their, you know, into their families that think we can leave it as well. Mom and dad will encourage them. No, you go encourage them. I do think the elders need to still be looking to meet with the parents and meet with the, you know, the young man or young woman themselves and say, hey, what are we doing to kind of work on this and to supplement what mom and dad are doing? And so from that perspective, I just want to make sure we as a church are taking care of our youth when we are baptized, because we see so many kids, 1213, 1415 years old, especially if they're baptized at camp, they come home. It's like mom and dad got it. Mom. Dad are busy. Mom and dad, you know, they're.
Is it their responsibility? Should be, yeah, I mean, they should, but if they don't step up, then we just assume that they're going to be taken care of. Maybe they won't. So I would just encourage churches, make sure that you're paying attention to them. Well, I don't have much to add. I think you added a lot of good stuff on, on hospitality, having them into your homes. I would have a new Christians class, potentially, and more than just a new Christians class where you kind of get shuffled in and then you're shuffled out of it. I love the idea, like one on one Bible studies of people having them over. So if you're a new Christian, I would love if seven families at the church had this person over in the first ten weeks, and that way they got to know people really well and they, you know, came over and they sang and, you know, each person would have something different. Maybe this person's really into singing. Maybe this person is just all about conversation. Where'd you come from? Tell me your life story. But either way, after ten weeks you're really solidified into the congregation. I think that's what the congregation can do. Meanwhile, I think the elders need to be meeting with this person consistently, praying with them, praying for them, things like that.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: Last thing I was going to say, jack, and it's all you, is the new converts class, I think is so important, but I think so often it just turns into make sure they know the way the church is structured, the five acts of worship, the steps of salvation. And that's kind of the gist of the new converts class. Maybe a little bit of church history or something. And it's like, yes, you need those things. Absolutely. But you know what else? You need the Bible basics, like, again, to reference for the third time. Jack. Sunday school catch up. But also, how do you study the Bible? That's a really big one. Like you can just feed them all the trivia and feed them all the. Here's what you need to know.
But what would be even better is if you do that and you take, you know, a pretty easy book to study, like Ephesians and say, all right, for the next 810, 13 weeks, we're going to study Ephesians and we're going to teach you how to study. That's just my little addition there to Joe about the new conference class. I think that stuff needs to be included, and from what I've seen, it often is not.
[00:14:08] Speaker C: Yeah, those all great points and really just not just how to study, but how to have a walk with God, how to be an active, functioning member of the church, giving them some responsibility at a certain point. I was looking at Galatians six about you who are spiritual restoring such a one, and then I bear one another's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ. Similarly in Hebrews 13 where it talks about submitting to your leaders and it doesn't exactly say elders there. I think obviously this starts with the elders. The elders kind of are the parents of the congregation in a manner of speaking. And it's the parents job to raise a kid up, get them to where they can feed themselves again, study the Bible for themselves, they know how to pray, they know why they need to be there, they know how to participate in the church and all that. The elders job, but really mature members in the same sense in a family. Yeah, if there's kids who are a lot older and there's a newborn, those older ones are going to help play a part. They, they're not going to raise the kid, but they're going to be influential. They're going to help out with some chores or whatever and show them the way. And so yeah, it's, it really is all hands on deck, but it, it start, what starts with the elders and the best congregations have, they know what, what to do. It's not. Okay, well, somebody got baptized. We'll see you Sunday. It really is that. Here's some information on what the Bible is about, of the information of the church and here's how you have a walk and as you guys said, having people connecting them with other christians in their homes and things like that, and making them a part of the work of the church. That person sticks around the person where it's all right, we'll see you next Sunday. Let us know if you have any questions. Not as good. And so, yeah, there is a big, it's a newborn and as you know, as I've made the illustration before, when we all brought our newborns home, we didn't set them on the couch. Me like, all right, there's food in the fridge. Like you, you got work to do. That's when the work starts. And so, I mean, not that there wasn't work that was put in to get them there, but yeah, it's a great question and something that needs a lot more emphasis. Again, we're talking about our own books, will starting line and my Sunday school book we sell as a combo because exactly that we, we don't want people to just come in and aimlessly wander. You need that, that foundation to start with. So were excited to announce that Doctor Brad and Melinda Harabs book on parenting is now available for pre order arrows. In the hands of a warrior, discipling children toward heaven with God's grace is a book drawing on 25 years of parenting experience as Doctor Brad and Melinda Point, christian fathers and mothers back to God's word to take up the crucial responsibility of discipling children towards heaven. Put in a pre order
[email protected]. dot all right, you guys ready to move on to the next one? A very tough one.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: All you, Joe.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Ah, okay.
John 2019 through 20, specifically, verse 23. What does it mean? Whoever asked this question, I don't like them. I've been studying and studying and studying and studying. Let me just read it for, for our listeners here. John 2019 to 23. So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, peace be with you. And when he had said this, he showed them both his hands and his side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you verse 2022. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, receive the Holy Spirit. Verse 23. Here, if you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them. If you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.
Okay, so what does this mean? There are two separate things that I'm seeing that I have struggled with and wrestled with and studied and studied on. First is verse 22.
What does it mean that they receive the Holy Spirit? We know 50 days later, Pentecost.
They're receiving the Holy Spirit through the tongues of fire. Right. Appearing as tongues of fire on their head. That's a big deal, of course, going back to Joel, too, in the prophecy. So what does it mean that they are receiving the Holy Spirit here, that he's breathing on them? So there's a lot of different discussion on this. Some people believe that John, the gospel of John, was written after acts was written. And this is a call ahead to that. It's not. That's poor interpretation.
The most likely thing that I can conceive and that I can, that I've kind of come to is I think he is giving them the peace, the joy, everything. John kind of builds what the Holy Spirit is all about this helper that's coming and he's giving all of those things to him as he says, peace be to you all. They're very scared. They're locking the doors for fear of the Jews. They don't know if Jesus is coming back. Right. And so they're hearing from Mary Magdalene that that is the case, but they're locking the doors. Clearly they are not in a positive emotional state. And he's letting them know, peace be with you. Receive the Holy Spirit, which is going to be the peace, the joy, the things like that that have kind of been laid out and that's going to put their mind at ease specifically for the next 50 days until they receive the miraculous Holy Spirit that allows them to do that. So there is talk that, you know, could it be the Holy Spirit that we receive that that's the Holy Spirit they're getting. It's not a miraculous holy spirit, but it's a seal of redemption that we receive. I suppose that could be the second thing and then I'll open it up to you guys is so I'm not ultra clear on it, but I think that's more or less what received the Holy Spirit is the second thing. If you forgive the sins of any their sins have been forgiven them. If you retain a sins any they've been retained. So did he, did Jesus give the apostles the ability to forgive sins and to keep sins, um, to retain somebody's sin and say, nope, you cannot be forgiven?
No, I don't think so. Uh, the Catholics obviously do. I think they uh, they kind of believe that that's exactly what he's doing. But they also believe that they literally built the church on Peter and not on Peter's confession in Matthew 16. So they're a little bit off on some of those things. I'd say.
You can get into the Greek on what it actually means, this, uh, forgiven or retained, some say the Forgive is actually to set free. You're setting them free and the REtain is the exact opposite of you're not allowing them set FreE. And the thinking along this line is, it is almost a great commission esque passage of like this is the importance of you going out and preaching these things. If you go out and preach forgiveness, their sins will be forgiven. If you don't, their sins will be retained. If you retain them, if you decide not to preach to them, they will be stuck in THeiR Sin. Um, do I fully buy that?
Not.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: It's almost like it would have been written and translated that way. If tHat's what it was. That's what it MeAnt, you know?
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Well, that's exactly it. I mean, that's one of the issues I saw. I'm telling you, I've been all over the place. I saw actually really good Reddit comment. I was trying to find.
[00:20:44] Speaker C: Here we go, Reddit.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm LIke, Boy, if I'm scratching the Reddit, like, that's a problem.
But he says, this guy says without a breathing, receive the Holy Spirit sent them, as he is sending us to bring the good news of the way to salvation in heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically, but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them as they proclaimed the gospel. They could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and they could stand condemned in God's eyes. Whoever believes in the Son is eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. So the thinking is, yeah, there is an evangelistic element to it, but this would be one of the first times that they are coming to guys, you can call out who does and who does not have eternal life. You can say whose sins are retained. Before this man didn't have the right to do that. David doesn't have the right to say whose sins are and are not forgiven. He has given them, first off, the Holy Spirit. I think that's the power of the Holy Spirit being on them. In verse 22, 2nd off, there's this call that he's giving to them that allows them to say, this is when sins are forgiven and this is when sins are not forgiven. That's one of the first. This is basically the first time in history that people can legitimately do that where they can tell you your sins have been forgiven or they could tell you your sins have not been forgiven. They don't know up to this point fully, right? Maybe they made the right sacrifices, but who knows? Sins being covered over it hasn't been forgiven. So this would be a commentary specifically from Jesus on their ability to know fully your sins actually are forgiven or your sins are actually not forgiven when nobody else has been able to do it. So that would be my best answer to that. It is a very difficult, I read all over the place, fellas, just very.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Quickly, and not that I have a ton to add. When I first read the question, I was like, well, you know, couldn't it just be a reference to Jesus kind of giving them permission to choose, you know, whether or not, okay, we're going to forgive this person's sins. And I guess I just kind of took for granted, like, as I think of the, the lame man in acts chapter three. And I thought, oh, yeah, well, Peter forgave us. No, he didn't. You don't see anywhere in acts or anywhere else for that matter, Peter, or really anybody doing what Jesus did in the gospels, which is not only am I going to heal you, but you can go, your sins are now forgiven. You know, rise up and walk or whatever, you know, the exact verbiage that Jesus uses. What you see is, you know, Peter makes the call in acts two, you know, tells them repent and be baptized. Obviously, Philip in acts eight doesn't forgive sins without baptism. In acts 16, Paul and Silas, like, you don't see any of the apostles, Peter included, forgiving anybody sins. And so. Yeah, Joe, that was your answer, the one that you just gave up? That was the one from, the one from the Reddit comment. I'm guessing that, that I like that one the best out of the ones that you threw out there.
But yeah, that is a tough one. That is a tough one for sure. Because the way that it reads and the way that it's translated is essentially like, okay, you guys can either forgive sins or you cannot forgive sins, but that lot more to it than that. Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:23:49] Speaker C: Yeah, the more I look at it, I'm not as, as, I don't find it as difficult, I guess, as you guys do, just because it is that it has been taken as this is the reasoning for which priests can offer forgiveness, health, Hail Marys and our fathers and all that that, hey, Peter was given and the apostles were given that and it's been passed down. And if they could forgive sins, we can, we can still do that today or our priests can still do that. And as you guys said, there's no evidence of that anywhere. You would think you would see that happening in the Bible, people coming to them for their sins to be forgiven. But what you do see throughout the book of acts in, and this parallels with at the end of Luke, kind of Luke's version of the great commission of that repentance for the forgiveness of his sins was going to be preached from Jerusalem to all the nations. That's just what they do all throughout acts, everywhere they go is repent and your sins can be forgiven. There's just so many verses on it. In acts, acts 531, he is the one whom God exalted to his right hand as a prince and a savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Acts 319, therefore repent and return so that your sins may be wiped away in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. And it goes on. Paul talks about it some as well.
So yeah, that declaring, and Wayne Jackson on Christian Currier made a great point, that in the Bible this is a thing, a manner of speaking, that is used sometimes where it's at the start of Jeremiah and Joseph does as well. But at the start of Jeremiah, it's Jeremiah. You can basically destroy all the nations. And that's not what he means. He means that you're going to prophesy that it's going to happen and then it's going to happen in the same way. You can say, well, I'm preaching the forgiveness of sins, and you get the forgiveness of sins. Now the retention of sinse that's a little harder. But you also see kind of like with Simon the sorcerer of hey, may your gold perish with you kind of thing. Like there's, there that is kind of the other side of that. And you've got the people where they shake the dust off their feet and leave towns and say, yeah, we're sorry, you know, you had your chance kind of thing. And so that's my read.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: The issue with that is, and this is why I still don't know that I'd like my answer.
If you retain sins, I mean, I think the first part is very easily work through of the forgiving them. Like, yeah, you're preaching the gospel. You could tell retaining sins very much. Seems like you can basically tell them whether they are or are not going to be saved, you know, in that way. And so I don't know, I think that's what poses a little bit of that challenge is like, what does Retaining sins mean? And like I said, I mean, my.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Well, you look at like the conviction when, when Stephen preaches to him and it's kind of like, yeah, you guys got a big problem. And their answer is, yeah, we're going to kill you. And then they do the same thing to Paul and things like that versus you see receptive People and Non receptive People. And it's a pretty obvious distinction really, throughout the book.
I don't know, that's just me. I might be stupid. I might be underthinking it here.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Well, and as I was looking just for anybody who's interested, GotQuestions.org actually has a great answer on it and this Slide dog. This is why Reddit. Don't ever trust Reddit. As I was reading through this, I'd read through this a while back, and then I'm reading through it, I'm like, that sounds really. Wait a minute, he copied the same one from Got questions, so it's not Reddit. Comment, please. Yeah, don't get mad at me for using Reddit. It was a Got questions and got questions answer. I thought that was decent. So tough question. Great question, but, yeah, appreciate that one. Fellas, let's move on to number four. Will, I'm going to let you take. I'll read it. I'll let you take this one. What do we think about denominational people who seem to have the spirit of the Lord and his supernatural grace and peace? Why are they so confident in their feeling of God's blessings? Why should we work so hard to evangelize them if they are already spiritually blessed?
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Appreciate you reading that one for me, Joe.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, go for it. We'll put off there.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Yeah. So, Joe, the one that he struggled with most was the one that we just read. This is the one I struggled with the most of, like, man, what is, what is, what are the answers to? There's several questions, obviously, in here. The first one being, what do we think about denominational people who seem to have the spirit of the Lord and his supernatural grace and peace?
Obviously a lot of that depends on your definition of quote unquote, having the spirit of the Lord. And this is where a lot of church of Christ people can get very squeamish with that idea because denominational people do seem to reference having the spirit or being moved by the spirit. Or I remember there was, there was a controversy with that. One of Joe's favorite Devo songs, light the fire, because it has a line in there about your spirit moves right through me. And, you know, so people change the line to you, breathe new life right through me and all this stuff. But again, denominational people do seem to have a bit more of it that's in their spiritual consciousness a whole lot more than church of Christ people. And I think that's why it scares a lot of them away. As far as what do I think about it? I mean, I'll come out and say it. I do believe that the Holy Spirit is more involved than just kind of representing the word of God. This is kind of big controversy right now, going around a lot, but what do I think about denominational people? So obviously, if you're somebody who is, you know, worshiping at a congregation or somebody who believes something that's not correct about salvation that you believe you did. You did the sinner's prayer, you asked Jesus into your heart, but you, man, you believe you have the spirit of the Lord. I would just. I would just flatly disagree. I think you don't. And I think a lot of times this is where there are certain people in the denominational world who can kind of get a little bit head in the clouds about it, about, well, God was speaking to me or man. I'm just. So. The spirit is talking to me. No, he's not. So that's kind of what I think about that first question. The second one, why are they so confident they feel of God's blessings? This one is tough because, you know, what's interesting is, you know, who you don't see very confident a lot of times about God's blessings or about their spiritual state. Those of us in the church of Christ don't seem very confident a lot of times, you know, who does? As this question illustrates, those in denominations. And so I do think that is. That's interesting. I'm not really sure. Obviously, I don't believe that God intends us to live the life of constantly checking over our shoulder, constant guilt that I think a lot of those in the church of Christ do. But then again, I also obviously don't think that we should just breeze through life with this air of I can do whatever, because God's got me type of confidence that some of the nominational people have.
The third question being, why should we work so hard to evangelize them if they're already spiritually blessed?
Again, spiritually blessed, you have to work with, you know, what definition are you talking about? Again, my stance on that is, if they are holding, if they ask Jesus into their heart and did the sinner's prayer, they're not spiritually blessed. Even if they might say that they are, even if they might be very spiritual themselves, read their bibles.
It's one of those things. If they don't get justification correct, if they don't get, you know, how is someone brought into contact with the blood of Christ? It's very hard to say, well, we just shouldn't evangelize them then. No, I obviously think you should. But the overall question, the overall heart of the question, I'll give it to, I guess, Jack, it's your turn here to go after me. Of why do they seem to be more focused on having the spirit of the Lord? They're very confident in it?
I don't know. I struggle with that one. Again, I think they, those in the nominations have a stronger grasp on that than we do a lot. I don't know if it's, again, I think maybe part of it is there. They are more grace focused, which can obviously lead to, you know, resting on your laurels and justifying things. But I think when you are more grace focused and grateful for the grace of God, it does tend to give you more confidence and be more grateful for what God has done for you to have that peace. Whereas if you are less grace focused, which we are typically in the church of Christ, you don't have that confidence. So those are just kind of my thoughts. I probably didn't really answer it, but, Jack, what, um. What would you have to add to some of that?
[00:31:37] Speaker C: I don't like the term evangelize for this particular thing. Uh, I know some people would view the Baptist and the atheist as exactly in the same camp. Uh, if you're looking at binary, maybe like, you know, black or white, one or the other, but when you're talking about a spectrum, it's not that at all. And, and so you're talking about somebody who knows about Jesus, knows about the death, burial, and resurrection, knows their Bible, believes in repentance and forgiveness of sins and faith and so many things like that. But, yeah, they've got some things wrong, some major things wrong.
I think it's very interesting that it's put back to back at the end of acts 18 that Apollos is pulled aside and corrected because he's preaching the baptism of John. And then Paul goes on to Ephesus, and that was in Corinth and Aquila and Priscilla pull them aside and teach him the way of God more accurately. And then in acts 19, just a few verses later, Paul goes into Ephesus, meets the guys who were baptized into John, didn't even hear about the Holy Spirit, and he re baptizes them. Two different approaches. Both of them are corrections. Both of them are, hey, it's not John anymore. We're doing something different here. One rebaptism, one not as best we can tell from the text. And I think we have to look at it as trying to help correct these people, as these are people who know Jesus, probably love Jesus, want to follow Jesus, and we're trying to show them the way more perfectly. They might not be open to it. They might not, uh uh. They might really shut it down, and then you might have more of a problem. But I. So that in itself starts off with the, I know, I'm not getting to the question about like why do they seem at peace? Well again, they're not the atheist. They're not somebody who has no hope. They're, they're somebody who gets so many of these concepts but missed a key step along the way or something, for sure.
But there's, even if just knowing God on some level, there's a level of peace you look at like Cornelius, that's another example in acts, a devout man, a man who wasn't jewish, a man who had not yet become a Christian. But there's, there's something there and so you could look at people like that as kind of a parallel to the kind of thing they're talking about. And you can see why he had a closeness with God and the peace that comes from it and all those things. Joe, do you have anything to add on this one?
[00:33:55] Speaker B: I like that Cornelius point. I was just going to say I think the spirit does move through, you know, move in and about people that aren't christians per se. John talks about he convicts the world concerning sin and judgment. If he's convicting the world that means they're not christians. He does have a hand to play in the lives of those that aren't. And I think through God's providence he can work through the lives of a baptist person to bring out a much greater good. You know, if the gospel is going to go spread to an entire nation and a Baptist happens to be part of it. No, I don't think the Baptist is in the right state with God. However, that Baptist happens to ship out 6000 bibles to Uganda. Can I see the spirit working through? Yeah, I mean because somebody in Uganda may not, that doesn't make them Baptist. It means they're getting the Bible and they may have an opportunity to, to actually understand and follow Christ in the appropriate and right way. So yeah, I think the spirit can work in a lot of different ways and it can look like he's working in the lives of those people. What I would encourage church Christ people, uh, church Christ to do is will going back to your point, we do need to embrace the fact that there is peace and there is joy and there is all those things. And the fruit of the spirit that we are to exhibit and that that really is to flow from us. Right. Is the fruit that is being given off. We don't often exhibit that and a lot of times it's because we deny the work of the spirit. So yeah, I mean I do think that that is a massive problem in the church of Christ, where we don't seem very joyful and spirit led and everything else, because we kind of deny his work in that. I would encourage people to take a step back, study that a little bit further, and see what it means to be spirit led and how we can do that. So not in some charismatic, you know, crazy pentecostal way, but just in he's working in our lives, we're exhibiting the fruit, all of those things. So that's all.
[00:35:39] Speaker C: I'd say that is part one. We have that is all the focus plus questions. We have a number of other questions from primarily the deep thinkers Facebook group, but a couple other sources as well. And so thank you guys a ton for that. And we're going to pick up just right up where we left off on our list and keep marching right along on the next episode.
