[00:00:09] Speaker A: All right, we are picking back up on Q and A and it is, it's been a week for you guys. For us it's been about 20 minutes. You know, we're in different shirts, but other than that we're in the same place, same time. And so we're just carrying right on. And if there's no other reason not to, I think we're just going to.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Get right back into our list of questions.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Really tough stuff last week, more tough stuff ahead of us, starting with this one.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: What is an appropriate christian response to a government that has abandoned its responsibility.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: To punish the evildoer?
Wow, that's something we're living in right now. Obviously in some ways of criminals, you see in places like San Francisco, they will not prosecute up to a certain dollar amount. They won't just essentially they're rewarded for their crime. And so in a situation like that, or in Virginia where the, the father.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Had his daughter assaulted in the bathroom.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: At the school and when he complained about it and took it to the school board, he was the one that got in trouble. He was the one they went on. It is very much a society, as.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: The Bible says, calling evil good and good evil.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: And so to their point, government's job.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Is to punish the evildoer, reward the good.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Romans 13 one, Peter is in there as well.
And yeah, it's, you can be tempted to vigilante justice. You see the people that do violent acts to like abortion clinics and things like that, you can be or even abortion doctors.
That is not our job.
Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. It's very interesting.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: It's at the end of Romans twelve.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: As he says that and heat burning.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Coals on their head.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: And as far as it depends on you be at peace with all Mendez.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: And immediately goes into the government section.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: And talking about our submission to them.
Some christians go way too far with.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: The submission in Romans 13 thing. It is not absolute submission. Government is not absolute authority. It is not God.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: And there is a time and a place for the famously, I've brought it up before. We've talked about it with John Piper's thing about somebody breaks in to attack his family. Well, would Jesus want me to attack him? No. Even if the government doesn't give you the right to put a stop to.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: That person, you have a right to.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Defend your home, to defend your family, things like that. But there is a line. And so specifically where that is, again, you can't take vigilante justice into your own hands.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: This is very much a wise, a.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Serpent innocent as doves issue for me.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: As to what christians can and can't.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Do, avoiding situations as much as is possible, putting yourself in favorable situations, moving.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: To places where you are allowed to.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Defend yourself and your family, that's just a lot of scattered thoughts on it. It's very hard, it's very case by case, but it's hard to come down on anywhere too specific other than some of those basic parameters.
[00:02:55] Speaker C: What do you guys have in America? Throws a wrench in this as well, because we do have more power than the average in the fact that, well.
[00:03:03] Speaker D: Allegedly that our vote allegedly matters and such.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: But I mean, we do have more.
[00:03:07] Speaker D: Power to elect officials, to be kind of in the ear of officials, to.
[00:03:11] Speaker C: Let them know what we think and.
[00:03:13] Speaker D: To vote them out of power and such.
[00:03:14] Speaker C: And I think that is something that is perfectly fine and needed actually from.
[00:03:19] Speaker D: Christians to exercise their authority and their right in that situation that the government has bestowed on them.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: So as far as it goes with the evildoers, millions are crossing the border illegally. What do we do about those things? I don't think that means that we just have to harbor all of them, and that doesn't mean that we don't, that, you know, we don't get to stand up to those things where possible. But what does standing up look like? I do think the election is a.
[00:03:43] Speaker D: Big part of that.
[00:03:44] Speaker C: But then also, Jack, you made good points before about just treating your neighbor right, really trying to make your local town as good as possible. That's a big part of government.
[00:03:54] Speaker D: And being involved in local politics to the best of your ability, running for local boards or mayor or whatever it may be.
[00:04:00] Speaker C: Those things can have an effect as well on the national level.
[00:04:03] Speaker D: There are very, very few things that affect our national level other than prayer.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Honestly, in my opinion. So it's a very difficult question. America, like I said, throws a little bit of a wrench based on our democratic republic. But by and large, yeah, I think we are to live the quiet lives first. Timothy to write, pray for, pray for.
[00:04:24] Speaker D: Those in authority, and to live quiet.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: Lives and things like that to the best of our ability.
[00:04:28] Speaker E: Preston, the only thing I would add is I think it can be very easy to take the approach of, well, you know, they're not doing what they're supposed to do, so I guess I won't do what I'm supposed to do, which is to submit. I think about, you know, the exhortation to wives in one, Peter, that that's not really the case. Just because you don't think that you know, even if they're not a Christian, you're still supposed to submit to them. And I think, obviously, I guess my question to this question would be, what are your options? You do have the option jack brought up, which is, you know, take justice into your own hands and just try to do it yourself. Well, we know that's, that's not the correct option. Option to try to, you know, rebel and overthrow the government. Probably not a great option there either. And so I do. It's a kind of a lame answer, I guess, and it's just kind of adding on to what you guys are saying. But I do think it is simply to do what you can on your own individual level, at the local level, do what you can, um, to continue to submit. I mean, because, let's be honest, let's not act like the, the Romans were doing everything exactly the way they were supposed to do, be doing things during Jesus's time. And he still said, pay your taxes. It's not like they were the perfect, again, example of a christian or a, or a good moral government. And so, yeah, what is an appropriate christian response? Obviously, never compromise the Bible standards, never obey a law or do something that would go completely against what God's word says. But other than that, I do think you just kind of have to decide. Here's where I'm going to try to affect change. Here's what I'm going to teach my children. Here's the, like Jack said, I'll. Maybe I'll move. If I was living in California, I would have moved a long time ago. As many people have to. Maybe another state. That's easier.
Yeah, that's about all I have to add. It is a tough one, for sure.
[00:06:18] Speaker C: Let me, let me ask you this, Jack. I'll ask you this because I know you've read on this before.
At what point do citizens get to fight back on Texas rendered a Caesar, that which is caesars. However, we also have a government that continues to take and take and take and take and take and take.
[00:06:32] Speaker D: What are your thoughts on that?
[00:06:33] Speaker C: I mean, I think at some point.
[00:06:35] Speaker E: The government, that's how the United States was, like, established, right? I mean, taxation without represent, not, you know, how it was established. But one of the big reason, contributing reasons why we are here today in the United States of America, right?
[00:06:46] Speaker C: Because they didn't like it. So I am curious. I have some thoughts on that. But what are your thoughts on at what point does, has government overreached its. Its bounds and has started, you know, is there at any point can we push back if they decide to take.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: 80%, this is where I mean, because when you bring up the revolution, immediately you run to, okay, was that right or wrong? And a lot of people take as.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Immediately it was wrong.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Because you're under government, you got to submit to it. But then you can get into the doctrine of lesser magistrates.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Your local government says, no, that's not.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: Right, you don't have to do that. Whereas another one, a bigger one says you do. And, okay, who you're listening to and things like that. And this is where in 2020, all the mandates and things like that.
Some Christians answer just whatever they say, you have to do it.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: If they say to defeat this virus.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: You got to stand on your head in the corner for 30 minutes a day. You have to do it. Just submit. Submit what the government says. It's like there's a time and a place you can get into sphere sovereignty or different theories of politics and authority and things like that, which we don't have time for me to riff on that, but very interesting for.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: Come on.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's lots of different ways you go with it, but there's things that, it's just not their business, it's not their purview. It's not a realm that God gave.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Them to rule on. Taxes is something that God gave them to rule on.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: And so obviously they didn't like Caesar's taxes.
Give.
Give unto Caesar what was Caesars. And that means pay it. I mean, there's, there is a level.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Of that that we might not like.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: But there's still ways of appeal. There's still. The problem is having read on, like the soviet years or whatever, you just.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Don'T have an option.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: You. Your back's against the wall at that point.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Death is pretty near most of the time in human history.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: And so that's a bad thing? I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm not saying that's your way out. I'm just saying that's how bad it's gotten to that even if you tried to resist, you're not getting anything. And so, um, yeah, this is how.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Grim it can get.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: And this is why it just drives.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Me crazy when you've got the pietists.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: Who were like, oh, we just don't have to worry about that stuff because.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Jesus is on his throne.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Like, yeah, my kids need to eat. So, um, yeah, it does matter. Um, so, yeah, lest I go off.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: On that, I've written on it a lot.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: Uh, you guys know where to find me on that stuff. So, uh, let's go to the next one. Uh, this is kind of a spin off of a question we've dealt with before, so let's a different version, a twist on it.
[00:09:14] Speaker E: Yeah, this is a good one. So can a man do a bible study composed by a woman in the church, either on his own or along with his wife? The, the commenter says, you all have discussed this topic before, but even more takes or advice when a congregation doesn't have elders yet and how to handle things, et cetera. There are so many sermons or podcasts that just say, we'll take it to your elders. Well, what if we don't have, or they say, well, we don't have any right now. So essentially, you know, what do you do then?
Interesting question. Very interesting. So I'll kind of give my answers and then, of course, open it up. My Joe, I think it's your turn to go first here. Can a man do also composed by women, the church, either on his own? So first of all, from the on your own perspective, I think that's a little strange to do for a man.
I don't know of many Bible studies composed by women. I'll start there. Like, I'm not familiar with a lot of them. I know, you know, there are some, I think Cindy Collie does, like, a digging deeper thing. And the church of Christ people use, and there's, of course, very prominent denominational women that might probably put out studies. From what I understand about them, most of those are, like, targeting women specifically, like, hey, here, here's, you know, you know, Bible studying how to be a better wife or, you know, things like that that are kind of women specific. And so obviously, I don't think the commenter is asking about those more. So just a generic Bible study that might be composed by a woman. I don't know of many that would be composed by women that would be a particular use to a mandev. Simply because you can grow closer to God in a kind of genderless sense, but not really, in my opinion, because you are like, there are certain things like, obviously, prayer for men and prayer for women. I guess pretty similar there. But you. I am approaching my spiritual walk, and I am attempting to grow closer to God in a bit of a different way than my wife is because I'm taking it from a masculine perspective. I'm taking it from the head of the household. I'm the husband, I'm the father. And all these things, she's taking it from something different. Again, it doesn't mean that we're reading a different Bible. It doesn't mean that we are, again, like, praying anything differently. But I think there is an element of our focuses might be a bit different. And so from a Bible study perspective where a woman is composing it, I don't think it'd be a particular use for a man necessarily.
You know, growing closer to God, again, is obviously kind of a gender neutral concept. But how that plays out in everyday life is not gender neutral in the least, in my opinion. Specifically, when you're talking the application, how it plays out specifically. So that'd be the first side. Along with his wife.
This is where, like my gut says, I don't really think I have a big problem with it, but then at the same time, I also. I can't get past the fact that no matter how you slice it, the woman is teaching the mandev at that point. The woman in the sense of the woman who composed the Bible study. If the man learns at some point throughout that study, the sticking point in the New Testament for this issue is authority, authority, authority, authority.
Paul says, I don't permit a woman to speak or have authority. If my wife composes a Bible study that Joe studies with his wife, and Joe learns something from my wife who put that Bible study together, I feel like that's an authority issue there. And so I would personally not at all be comfortable with it.
I don't know. What are your guys thoughts? Kind of two sides to that. Joe, I think it's your turn.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a tough one because I was going to push back on you, like, okay, what if it's a book on how to study? I think my wife is doing this.
[00:12:45] Speaker D: In their bio, in their ladies classes.
[00:12:46] Speaker C: There'S a lady who is walking through how to study the Bible.
Okay, there may be benefit for some of the guys there.
[00:12:55] Speaker D: It's not a lady specific thing, per se.
[00:12:56] Speaker C: It's just how to study the Bible and what to pull out of it and such. But it's led by a woman.
I mean, so I feel like on the. I'm almost reversed from you. Like, on the surface, I feel like we absolutely need to make a separation.
[00:13:11] Speaker D: And I would not be comfortable.
[00:13:12] Speaker C: And I think, by and large, I don't think I am comfortable. But there's also a good level of, like, if we are learning from this, if my wife brings me a book.
[00:13:22] Speaker D: And I happen to read through the.
[00:13:23] Speaker C: Book and I learned something from it, and, you know, something in the biblical realm, am I wrong for that? No. I mean, I certainly don't know that I'm wrong for that, if that's all I'm seeking out. Yeah.
[00:13:35] Speaker D: I may be in a different spot.
[00:13:36] Speaker C: I think, by and large, if you can find a study led by a man, I would.
But I also have a really difficult time drawing that because. Well, for the authority purpose. But I'm thinking through, like, okay, I'm reading a book right now on my shelf.
[00:13:50] Speaker D: That is not. It's therapy related, but it's from a woman.
[00:13:52] Speaker C: And the bad therapy from Abigail Schreier, I believe, and I can learn lots in that.
[00:13:59] Speaker D: It's not in a biblical realm. Is she holding authority over me in.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: That situation because I'm learning from her?
[00:14:05] Speaker D: Maybe. I guess she's the expert, in a way, in that situation.
[00:14:08] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:14:09] Speaker C: Yeah, she's the expert, and I'm not. But it's difficult to say, like, if.
[00:14:13] Speaker D: A woman is face to face.
[00:14:14] Speaker C: Okay, let me.
[00:14:14] Speaker D: Let's sit down.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: And I'm in this position of authority, and I'm teaching you.
[00:14:18] Speaker D: That feels a lot worse to me.
[00:14:20] Speaker C: Than me reading an article on, you.
[00:14:23] Speaker D: Know, some biblical site from a woman. If I read a Cindy Cawley article.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: And I happen to learn something, I don't think I'm condemned for that. I don't think she was necessarily holding.
[00:14:30] Speaker D: Authority over me or that I'm putting her in a position of authority.
[00:14:33] Speaker C: As much as I read the article, thought she made a good point, and then moved on. Because that would assume men can never learn anything from a woman's article in.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: The church of Bulletin.
[00:14:44] Speaker D: No, no, because in my opinion, it.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: Would be a different. My point is, like, if I run across a Cindy. Cindy Cauley blog, she put something out, right? She writes it, and Alyssa shows me something, and I go, that's the only.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Name that's coming up to mind, that we're not throwing her under the bus or trying to.
[00:14:59] Speaker C: Sheila. But there's a lot of. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of great, great women article.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Um.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Sprouts.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:15:05] Speaker E: I don't. I don't quite understand the difference, Joe, between the bulletin article and the.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: So the bulletin article, to me would. Would be. Yeah, I mean, I think there is. There's a distance level, but there's also, historically speaking, everybody knows it's going to.
[00:15:20] Speaker D: Be the preacher or a man, you know, an elder or a preacher writing.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: The bulletin article, almost always when you give that over to a woman, that.
[00:15:27] Speaker D: Does feel like you're giving a part of.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Of the church, a part of a.
[00:15:31] Speaker D: Leadership of the church over to a woman, the same is with a Bible.
[00:15:33] Speaker C: Class or anything else.
If a woman writes a blog on.
[00:15:37] Speaker D: A biblical thing that I happen to run across and happen to learn something, I don't think I have forfeited my.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: Okay, so my right is my point. Like, I don't feel like just because.
[00:15:45] Speaker D: I learned something from a woman, all of a sudden she has all authority over me.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: I feel like my wife, that would assume I can never learn anything from.
[00:15:51] Speaker D: My wife without her taking authority. I don't think that's true.
[00:15:53] Speaker E: Your wife and a different woman are completely, I think, two totally different things. First of all, why? Because you would almost be more. Should you.
[00:16:01] Speaker C: Well, I think you get into danger there because at what point.
[00:16:05] Speaker D: Okay, can my wife pray over me? Can my wife lead Bible studies with me? Would you be comfortable if my wife.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Was leading the Bible study in general?
[00:16:12] Speaker D: I wouldn't.
[00:16:13] Speaker E: With you, too?
[00:16:14] Speaker D: I wouldn't know.
[00:16:15] Speaker C: I mean, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.
[00:16:17] Speaker D: My point is, my wife's doing her.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: Own bible study through James, and she's.
[00:16:20] Speaker D: Hey, I found this in James and.
[00:16:23] Speaker C: She teaches me something and I go, that's pretty good.
[00:16:25] Speaker D: I don't think I've ever seen that. Well, boom, all of a sudden she's an authority.
[00:16:28] Speaker C: No, I don't think she's holding authority over me.
[00:16:30] Speaker D: I'm not going to assume that I always know everything more than the other.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: Women in my life.
[00:16:34] Speaker D: I'm going to assume there are some.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Things that maybe they could, you know, that I could learn from a woman who has a biblical idea that I.
[00:16:40] Speaker D: Have not forfeited my authority because she knows something in an area that I.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Do not, that would assume that I'm all known.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Hard part of, like, published stuff is, I think, like, well, we. When we had the similar discussion previously, it was about like, well, if we all get together, you know, at Joe's house for just a devo night or whatever, and Will's wife makes a comment or my wife makes a comment.
[00:17:02] Speaker E: Right. And we had reverse positions. I had no problem with that.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:06] Speaker E: You guys did.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Which is funny, but it's kind of like, okay, you can make the case of that is like, on a personal level, because if that was the question that was submitted last time, is like, can women ever speak about the Bible in front of men? Because they might teach them, even on.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: A personal level, even their husband or a family member or whatever.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: And so it's like, yeah, no, that. That's okay. Whereas a published thing, it feels different.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Because it is more corporate.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Because if she did the same thing.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: In a gathering of the church, it would be different. It would feel very different.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Sortie.
[00:17:37] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Where does the published thing fall?
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Is it corporate or is it familial?
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Well, I don't think it's very like, you know, in a familiar setting situation. I think it is more corporate.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: And so that's the.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: And this may be, this may be a dumb thing to add, but I feel like if it's a week by week thing, I would feel even worse about it.
[00:17:53] Speaker E: Well, that's what I was about to bring up. If somebody said, hey, we're going to do this Bible study on Ephesians, the one I always think of on Ephesians for our Sunday morning Bible class, it was composed by XYZ woman in the church. Would you be cool with that?
[00:18:10] Speaker C: No, I don't think I would. Especially bringing it to an entire church. I feel like in an individual, especially if it's going to be a week.
[00:18:17] Speaker D: By, like week after week after week.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Thing where you are taking it from the woman.
[00:18:21] Speaker E: I draw a difference between subjectivity on this.
[00:18:25] Speaker D: Well, yeah, what there absolutely is.
[00:18:26] Speaker C: There absolutely is because there is no, there is no bounds. Like, I look at it as we are in a world a woman wasn't about to write a Devo guide back then. Like, if it is a day by.
[00:18:37] Speaker D: Day, I'm going to the woman to learn again and again and again from her verses.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: A woman wrote something really good, and my wife and I sit down with it at night and she, you know, and I happen to read through it.
[00:18:46] Speaker D: And we discuss the points that a woman made.
[00:18:48] Speaker C: And maybe I learned something that feels way different than I chose this woman.
[00:18:53] Speaker D: Book that I am putting. And then every single day or every.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: Single week, we're going to go through this woman thing. That, to me, feels like I'm giving that woman, I'm giving my authority up to that woman, in my opinion, versus a one off situation where I'm not.
[00:19:06] Speaker D: Giving my authority up to learn something.
[00:19:07] Speaker C: From her, per se, it doesn't feel as.
As final, if that makes sense.
[00:19:15] Speaker E: Again, I think, like, it's. It is strange. Like, my gut feeling just off the surface is like, I don't really think I have that big of a problem with it if Rachel brought to me like, okay, but the logical side of my head is like, you have the authority question.
[00:19:31] Speaker C: And I guess that's, that's, that's where I was saying is like, the logic.
[00:19:35] Speaker D: Is going well, authority wise, but the.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Gut is saying, am I really? Do I really think that somebody stands condemned or that they need to repent? If that's no, I have a difficult time getting there. I feel like there's a difference between allowing a woman to get up and lead a Bible class or taking a clear position of authority in the church and learning something from a woman on a one time basis. Again, it's a different thing if it's.
[00:20:00] Speaker D: Week after week after week we're listening.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Or if I listen to, like, a Beth Moore sermon or something like that online, like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That, to me, feels different than reading.
[00:20:08] Speaker D: Reading a two minute article where she makes a biblical point.
[00:20:11] Speaker E: Because if we're not talking about stumbling across an article on the Internet, we're talking about a nightly or weekly Bible study that we are doing, I would.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: Feel more comfortable with it being by man. Yeah.
Because I think that is more. Jack, you're nodding, but you've been rather quiet. What are your thoughts?
[00:20:29] Speaker A: I think it's kind of strange, like, some of this stuff of, obviously stuff about, like, for.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: For wives or things like that, or women's studies.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: I get that.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: But when, like, a woman does write.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: A study through a book of the Bible, it's kind of like men have already done that.
We've got plenty of christian men who have written on those kinds of things. And so, like, in the church, keeping consistent with, you know, the woman not teaching or having authority over man. But it's also just kind of like.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: This is not the role they were designed for. And so where it talks about women teaching, it is older women teaching younger women to love their husbands and their.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Children and keepers at home and things like that. In Titus two, there's not a lot of sense anywhere in the bible of a woman kind of pontificating, in a sense. And so it is kind of strange to me that you have these studies.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: That are written in the first place, and so it's second level strange for.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: A guy to open it up and go, okay, I'll sit down and study.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: This with my wife.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: There's no shortage of books these days. There's no shortage of material these days. And so I just don't see the. And I'm not disparaging these women's skills. I'm sure they know their stuff. They're talented, you know, they're good students of the word and things like that. But, yeah, I just don't know. Anyway, well, it was either you or.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: You or will made the point I came, which. Which he made the point.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: But, like, if it was a good point, it was me?
[00:21:55] Speaker E: Yeah, sure.
[00:21:58] Speaker C: If this person were to take the same study and come into your house and the woman was reading these things.
[00:22:04] Speaker D: Would you feel as comfortable?
[00:22:05] Speaker C: I think you're talking about getting up in front of the congregate with either one of you, get up in front of the congregation, leading a class with the same material. And I would challenge, like whoever this, you know, the person asking the question, if that woman were to come in.
[00:22:17] Speaker D: To your home and present the same.
[00:22:19] Speaker C: Information, would you be comfortable with that?
[00:22:22] Speaker D: While you and your husband sit at her feet and just listen to this?
[00:22:25] Speaker C: There is a little bit of that.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: So I mean, like present. If it's like we're having a discussion around the dinner table and she chimes in with a couple points, that's one thing, if.
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Correct, correct.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: We have her over, we sit at her feet, stands up.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And tells everybody in the room what's going on.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Like, yeah, right.
[00:22:40] Speaker E: Or is even, even leading the discussion, because I've had Bible studies before where I very much facilitate and lead the discussion, but, you know, everybody chips in and participates. If a woman was leading the discussion that, yeah, it gets into kind of touchy territory there.
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[00:23:19] Speaker A: Dot.
[00:23:22] Speaker C: So let's get into part two real fast. The question, because I didn't comment on this at all. Will you comment it a little bit? Jack, I'm curious, your thoughts on the second part of this question.
[00:23:30] Speaker D: We discussed the topic before.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: What do we do when there are.
[00:23:33] Speaker D: No elders to ask? How do you handle these things? Who do you go to?
[00:23:36] Speaker C: Do you go to the men of the congregation?
[00:23:38] Speaker D: That can get really sticky because this sounds mean.
[00:23:41] Speaker C: But not all men are gifted with.
[00:23:42] Speaker D: The ability to teach and not all men are grounded in the word. So you can go to a men's.
[00:23:45] Speaker E: Meeting, especially if they're not qualified to be elders like.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you have some guys that, man, maybe they just don't know their word all that well. So do they go to them?
[00:23:55] Speaker D: Do they just go to the preacher then?
[00:23:56] Speaker C: The preacher sometimes can become almost the pastor type thing where he's got all the answers so what are your thoughts?
[00:24:02] Speaker B: I'll go.
[00:24:03] Speaker E: I'll be very quick. I would definitely consult the preacher. I mean, theoretically, he should be one of the more biblically knowledgeable people at your congregation. I mean, have some kind of authorities we talked about in other episodes, but in a congregation without elders, if it's a husband and wife that are really struggling with this, I would.
It's. It's maybe a bit of a cop out answer, but kind of a conscience thing for you two. Again, I'm with you. I don't think that I would, like, take it to the men's meeting and say, hey, what do you guys think? I would, you know, maybe ask some people that I respect or, you know, hopefully the preachers being one of them, but I don't know. Even though I kind of just argue for the authority thing, I don't know that somebody's salvation is going to hit, you know, is going to hinge on. Did they do a book of James study that was written by a woman? And so I think I would say if you're somebody who, like, man, it's gonna really bother my conscience, then just don't. Just don't. Don't even worry about it. But if you're somebody who's like, I'm not sure, but I don't, you know, think it's gonna be a huge problem. I don't know that I would. I think I would let you as a married couple decide, hey, this is what we're gonna do with that. Be my brief thoughts.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so hard. I mean, if there's a person that maybe can't be an elder, but you.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Respect and they've kind of earned your trust with the word, okay, that's.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: That's one thing. If you don't have that, and I know some congregations don't even have that, hopefully there's.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: There's congregations nearby that maybe have some eldership and not that they have rule.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Over your church or that you've got to do what they say, but just.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Wise people who have been there, done.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: That might have some answers.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: It is not an ideal, but it.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Is a very common situation.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: And so I hate that there's really not a clear answer that we can give on that because that's just the nature of the situation.
[00:25:39] Speaker E: Very unfortunate there's any egalitarians listening to us. They are incensed right now. I'm sure. There's probably not.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think they'd be listening to this podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:53] Speaker D: All right.
[00:25:54] Speaker C: I got the next one.
[00:25:55] Speaker D: Can you be cremated?
[00:25:56] Speaker C: Even though we don't have examples of that?
This is an interesting question. I used to be like, well, that's the dumbest question world. And then I got to thinking, like, what is it do we want if we feel like that body?
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Ask the dumbest question in the world.
[00:26:08] Speaker E: Grief.
[00:26:09] Speaker C: Well, no, I. I used to ask you, like, can we be cremated? Or I saw it, and then it's like, well, of course, you know, people can be cremated, do whatever they want, and then you start looking at it, going, hold on a second. And this is where this person is, I'm sure, where the body does matter, right? It seems like the body is a.
[00:26:23] Speaker D: Scripture, obviously says the body is a temple.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: It seems like it is important to God. We will have heavenly bodies.
[00:26:28] Speaker D: Can it be returned from the ashes?
[00:26:30] Speaker C: Um, like God's going to give this heavenly body and the scattered ashes all over the ocean are going to, like, come together. Um, but by and large, yeah, I think you can, uh, my answer swayed because initially, or there for a little bit, it's like, I don't know. I don't know how I do that, but I think you can. And the reason why is the thing that kind of worked me through it is okay. There are a lot of people that have died, unfortunately, in fires, uh, major fires, they were cremated without, uh, you know, it was not their choice to be cremated.
[00:26:59] Speaker D: God still has a plan for them.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: God's like, their eternal body is not dependent upon, um, them having a physical body in the ground that God's going to raise up. I think he's got the power to make it work. And so I don't personally have a problem with cremation. I could see from a, you know, just from the physical point of view, like, is it honoring to the body once the, once the soul is passed on? I don't really feel like the body is, um, you know, it does not carry the same weight, so to speak, as it does when the soul is there. So I don't have a problem with it personally. Fellas, what are your thoughts?
[00:27:33] Speaker E: I did some, some digging on if there's any example of, in the Bible, and the only thing I came up with was one Samuel 31. It does seem like it says that Saul, his son, as their bodies were burned.
And that's pretty much the only biblical example that you see. It's in one Samuel 31, verse twelve. All the valley men arose and traveled all night, took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan and they came to Jabesh and burned the. There. They took their bones and buried them under the tamaris tree of Jabesh. So obviously that, you know, does not necessarily say, hey, you can or you can't. But there's a biblical example. I did come across this quote, and, man, I didn't put the reference down. So I apologize there. But it says, obviously, buried body is actually going to decompose. So cremation isn't a strange or wrong practice. It merely accelerates the natural process of oxidation.
Thought that was kind of interesting point. Like, yeah, the body does deem. But. So, yeah, long story short, I don't have a problem with it.
I'm not.
[00:28:27] Speaker D: I will say this real fast.
[00:28:28] Speaker E: Go ahead.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: Adding to your point, sorry not to catch up, but it does seem the biblical precedent we see of people burning or being burned is not usually in a positive context. It is usually in a, you know.
[00:28:40] Speaker E: Like when all the patriarchs really see were buried, they were not burned.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: Right? Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:45] Speaker D: So it seems to be almost a.
[00:28:47] Speaker C: Judgment on the person. Like, you know, God incinerating native and abiqi. We don't know. It sounds like, you know, that wasn't good. And so, like, the burning of a body was more of a judgment type negative thing. But I don't think it has to be per se.
[00:29:02] Speaker E: So I've got. Jack, I know you gotta go here. I've got a, like a kind of sidebar question here. I've met so many people that are just adamant that I do not want to be buried. I have to be cremated. Like, like, I don't care. After I'm dead. I don't understand why people get so.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: Fired up about it.
[00:29:21] Speaker E: Exactly how I want to have. My body needs to be treated, and I absolutely have to be cremated. I bet a lot of people, like, that's, that's their, you know, one thing that they just want to be cremated. It's like, I. Sorry, I don't care. Like, do whatever you want.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Our sister used to be very, very.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Big on, I don't want to be buried alive.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: So I think she wanted to be cremated so she wouldn't be buried alive. And she's been reassured many times they don't make that mistake anymore. You're good. And with all the embalming stuff they.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Put in you, if you weren't dead, you will be.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: So that might be where those people are coming from.
I know this is a very serious thing. I'm having a hard time not smiling through it. My son recently found out what a hearse is. We saw a funeral go by and some of that, but he calls it a body truck. And he's been asking me all kinds of questions about the body truck and who's in the body truck, you know? Yes. Uh, the talking cremation funeral, such is, uh, making me think of the body truck, but, um, the. I.
It's not a sin. I'm not like, I don't think it's wrong for somebody to do it. I will avoid it. Like, I'm not interested in doing it. Um, I, I think it is respect for the body.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: God called the body good.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Um, the other thing is, like, as you said, joe, burning in the Bible is negative. Uh, with the human body, that is. And it was a very pagan practice. Like that was something that was. Christians didn't burn their dead, the pagans did, going back into history.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: And I think it stems from that.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Of kind of, for them, they view it as an escape from kind of a gnostic view of the world, an escape from the shackles of your body. And Paul talks about, all right, we're.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Going to trade this tent for another tent, and that's a whole long rabbit.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Trail we can go down, but for.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: A permanent dwelling, I should say.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: And I. Yeah, it's just respecting what God made and called good and kind of leaving that part to him, even if you are going to decompose. So that's just me personally, I'm not going to say somebody has a problem if they are pro doing it.
[00:31:18] Speaker D: Interesting question.
[00:31:20] Speaker C: Not a stupid question.
Yeah, there you go. Cadillac making body trucks.
Okay, Jack, this is for you.
[00:31:29] Speaker D: Is it better to be on a farm homestead type than in a city?
[00:31:33] Speaker A: This is interesting because the, like the. What's that?
[00:31:36] Speaker E: This question.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: What did you say?
You're freezing up there.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Can you hear me?
[00:31:44] Speaker A: What'd you say?
[00:31:45] Speaker E: I said it's appropriate that Jack got the question.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, no, it's.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: I did move out of the city.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: And am now more rural. And there is a sense right now.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: That it's like the better thing to do, the moral thing to do. And you get why people are wanting.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: To get out of cities right now with prices and with prime and with things like that. But some people have really turned that into, this is a good thing, this is a necessary thing, this is a.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Christian thing to do, is to get out of the cities.
[00:32:13] Speaker A: And I don't necessarily think that's the case now. So many times you see so much.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: More crime in the cities, you see.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: So much more sin in the cities, you see just things like that. And so you might think, okay, well, that means there's a correlation there. But on the other hand, you look at the Bible, starts off in a.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Garden, it ends in a city.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Adam, you kind of have the dominion.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: Mandate, but then the cultural mandate, fruitful.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: And multiply and all that. You're always going to have cities like that. That was something that was going to.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Come about from mankind spreading.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: And I don't think we have to look at it as a bad thing.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Unfortunately, you do have Babel. You've got Nimrod and the cities he established.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Like, cities went bad pretty quickly post.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Arc and probably pre arc. We don't get that many details about it.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: You've got Sodom and Gomorrah, you've got things like that, but you've got where Jerusalem was a gleaming beacon to the world and things like that. So I don't think it necessarily has to be that way.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: It does end up that way sometimes.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: And, you know, nature, there's beauty in nature. It draws you back to God, things like that. But I don't think it necessarily has to be that way, if that makes sense.
[00:33:18] Speaker C: I do think that if you're looking at it not from a moral perspective, but just from a logical perspective, homesteading is probably a good idea right now. If you can own chickens, if you can, you know, so you have eggs and you have meat and things like.
[00:33:30] Speaker D: That, or if you have cows or.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: Goats or something, just from a sustainability standpoint. But what I will say is, that sounds so good. That is so much work.
[00:33:40] Speaker D: There's a reason farmers have that as their primary job.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: Like, it is an insane amount of work to homestead. Our neighbors have chickens. I just see, you know, chickens aren't.
[00:33:49] Speaker D: The worst thing in the world, but with the gardening and the chickens and, and the other things that they have, they're working all the time.
[00:33:55] Speaker C: And, um, you know, I looked at it and my wife and I wanted to do it, but I work a lot in therapy and doing these things and other things I have going on. So it just wasn't as feasible as I would have liked it to be on the homesteading front. Even though we have a little bit of land, we could do things like that. That's the one caution I give people.
[00:34:12] Speaker D: But from a logical standpoint, yeah, I.
[00:34:13] Speaker C: Mean, you look at. Not to go off and be political here, but, yeah, we're built on a house of cards here.
[00:34:18] Speaker D: Like, you look at the production system.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: And how everything, like 59 factories burned down at the start of this year, just a ridiculous amount of.
We could be in food shortages depending on, you know, who gets elected. There's a lot of things like that that I'm already thinking about. You're going to want to live off the land as much as you can.
[00:34:36] Speaker D: Hunting is big.
[00:34:36] Speaker C: I think being conservationist, but also being hunters and people like that, like taking.
[00:34:42] Speaker D: Care of the land, working the land.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Getting back to the soil, I think that's really good. I think it's good for mental health.
[00:34:47] Speaker D: I think it's really good for a man's mental health.
[00:34:49] Speaker C: Even though I don't do it near as much. It's hypocritical for me to say that, but I would love that.
[00:34:53] Speaker D: I love that job, personally.
[00:34:54] Speaker C: It just is a lot of work. But, yeah, I would say it makes.
[00:34:57] Speaker D: A lot of sense to homestead if.
[00:34:58] Speaker C: It is feasible for you.
[00:35:00] Speaker E: I wrote down the advantage to farm and homestead. Obviously, everything you guys said, ability to grow your own food, kind of be self sustainable, have chickens and all that. Put down the advantage to the city are literally everything else.
The convenience, the access to.
[00:35:15] Speaker C: I'm a city boy.
[00:35:16] Speaker E: There's more thing. I'm very much in a city person. My wife is not. She would be very happy just arm somewhere on land one day and maybe do a little bit more gardening and stuff. But I do think in the current society that we live in, if you can do it, great. I don't think a lot of people can. I know just from a mental perspective, I. I kind of have to be. I love the city and would never want to just be out, you know, in a place without much city. But I totally get all the advantages and the more small town feel and all that.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: So I'm a city boy. Like, I come across, like, man, I love the city.
[00:35:50] Speaker D: I love being close to city.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: Grew up 15 minutes outside Denver. It's tough to give up, but reading the times and looking at what's ahead, it's going to be really tight and really sparse for people.
[00:35:59] Speaker E: The advantages are more prominent now than they used to be. Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:02] Speaker C: When there's food shortages at your, you know, local Walmart, like, the people who have their own sustainability will be looking very, very smart.
All right, will, I think you got the next question.
[00:36:14] Speaker E: Okay.
Should we be vegetarian? Since that's how Adam and Eve were first created?
It's a good question. Obviously, we know from Genesis one, I think it's 27 or so. That is kind of what's handed down. I'll be very quick here because we got some more to get to. Should we? No, I don't think so. In Genesis nine three, right after the flood, God does tell Noah, and he tells his, obviously Noah, his family and his sons, every, every living thing that moves. I've given us food for you, so no longer was just a vegetarian world. God gave us the animals to eat and so should we. I can't see any kind of biblical argument for why we should. Is it healthier? Maybe Jack probably would say no. Jack, Jack's the health expert here.
I don't know that it necessarily.
I don't think it's necessarily healthier, but I know a lot of people, you know, to be vegan or to be vegetarian. But again, brief answer. No, I don't think you should. If you want to, great. I personally will never do that. I love, uh, beef and steak too much, but, uh, no, I don't think you should. Any, any thoughts?
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Uh, I mean, all the verses you brought up, God given, giving us these things for food, it's very hard to compare ourselves to the, uh, to Eden.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: And what it was and, and the nature of that and what Adam and.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Eve were going to be like and nutrition in a world, I mean, is.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Obviously a radically different world.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: And so it's just hard to say. But as for right now, no, you've.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Been blessed with these things.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: It is a blessing from God to have them. I do. The problem is, yeah, I can make.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: The case for why they're healthier. You can find something that makes the case for literally everything you can find.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Salt's good for you, salt's bad for.
[00:37:52] Speaker B: You, sugar's good for you, sugar's bad for you.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Fats good for you, fat's bad for you, this kind of fat. And so I'm not going to convince anybody. You're going to find the source. That kind of goes with what you want. But yeah, no, that's. I'm very pro going ahead with it, like it will said. So we're good on moving on from that one.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Interesting question, though.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Let's see. We should roll this in with the discussion on women's roles just a bit.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Ago, but what age can a mom not pray with her boys allowed anymore?
[00:38:21] Speaker A: I believe a mother wanted to know about that one.
[00:38:25] Speaker C: This is a subjective thing. I feel like.
[00:38:31] Speaker D: I do think that once the boys.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Are baptized, that's kind of when it. I would say is that's, that's my line is I think that's probably what it needs to cut off.
However, I would also say, in my.
[00:38:42] Speaker D: Opinion, the spiritual leadership of the boys.
[00:38:44] Speaker C: Probably needs to start transferring at seven.
[00:38:46] Speaker D: Or eight years old.
[00:38:47] Speaker C: That's a lot earlier than a lot of people think. But we just, from an attachment perspective.
[00:38:51] Speaker D: We know that a man becomes the.
[00:38:53] Speaker C: Biggest, the boy's biggest need in his life around eight years old. He needs to be doing the majority of the disciplining, the majority of the structure instruction, the majority of everything else, because boys thrive under that. And when you see boys that are in public school underneath a woman or.
[00:39:08] Speaker D: The mom's doing all the teaching and.
[00:39:10] Speaker C: You know, the dad's not very present, really, really affects the boys.
[00:39:13] Speaker D: And so I think the dad needs to be taking a very active role, probably eight years old and on, in my opinion.
[00:39:18] Speaker C: So I would say my wife, I do the praying at night, but even.
[00:39:22] Speaker D: If she is, I would probably say.
[00:39:24] Speaker C: With my oldest coming up at six, around seven or eight, that's my line. Personally, I think it's subjective, but the.
[00:39:31] Speaker D: Baptism one, I think is a little less subjective.
[00:39:33] Speaker C: Tell us.
[00:39:33] Speaker E: That's basically what I said was that the baptism is kind of the hard line. And then before that, it is kind of like, eh, you know, because the other thing about it is we believe in homeschooling. And so I fully expect Bible to be a part of the curriculum for homeschooling. Well, I'm probably still going to be working a good amount of hours per week and probably not going to be, you know, able to do all the teaching. So is that something that, you know, my wife can teach by? Like, I don't know, this is kind of a different question there. Makes, it makes a little bit tough. I do think that from a pure, once again, authority perspective, talking to God is a little bit different than the homeschooling side of things. So, yeah, I mean, I would say around ten, 8910, somewhere in that range. I do think you should probably start shying away from it. Just, you know, because it's not like you want to say, okay, as soon as you're baptized, cut everything off. Kind of establish the, the importance of the, the man's role and the woman's role early on. So that's all I would have to say.
[00:40:32] Speaker F: Shouldn't church be more. If you've ever driven home from a Sunday worship with that question on your heart and on your mind, church reset may be the book for you. In it, I explore how the church was meant to be a family carrying out a mission, and instead it has become a business aimed at attracting consumers and therefore lacks the power that God.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Intended for it to have pick up.
[00:40:50] Speaker F: A copy of church reset
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[00:40:57] Speaker C: All right, good deal. We are buzzing on these last few fellas. All right, does leave and cleave mean.
[00:41:02] Speaker D: They should leave and be 100% independent.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: Or can they live with parents slash.
[00:41:07] Speaker D: Share land, etcetera, if parents want to? Or should parents withhold in order for couple to be dependent on each other?
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Interesting question.
[00:41:15] Speaker E: So let me clarify this question real fast, Joe, before, before you go.
So obviously there are lots of examples of, like, children with families that then go, like, go move back onto their. Live with their parents or like, live on their parents land or something like that as a choice rather than a, okay, I kind of have to, like, can you bail me out? Type of thing. So I didn't know if we wanted to distinguish that of, like, obviously, you know, I would love to build on my parents land one day. Joe, I think you've talked about that before as well, but, like, that's a choice we're making. It's not a man, I'm really in a bind. Can you, can, you know, can you guys house me for a bit with my three kids? So, yeah, I think those are two different things, I guess is why I wanted Jeff.
[00:41:58] Speaker C: I would agree, but I would also say, I would also say, I think you can still leave and cleave, even needing your parents to bail you out in a bind. Is it ideal? No, but also just being realistic. Like, you look at the economy, there's, I can't remember the statistics.
[00:42:12] Speaker D: It's an overwhelming majority are still living.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: With their parents at 30 years old, like way more than ever in history. And you go, well, what a bunch of bums and snowflakes and everything else.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: Overwhelming majority or like a higher number than usual?
[00:42:25] Speaker C: No, I think it's a majority.
[00:42:26] Speaker D: I thought it was.
[00:42:27] Speaker C: I thought it was.
[00:42:28] Speaker D: Maybe it's higher number than usual, but.
[00:42:29] Speaker E: I keep talking about millennials or of ginseng.
[00:42:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:32] Speaker D: Of like 30 year olds living with their parents.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: I could be off on that. It's a high number. Higher than, I would believe that if.
[00:42:38] Speaker E: It was not 30%, 40%, like 30 year olds, single 30 year olds or something. I could definitely see that. But with family, that's hard for me to believe.
[00:42:45] Speaker C: I do think, well, yeah, and I'm speaking more than in general 30 year.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Olds, but I'm saying 25 to 34.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Living with their parents or parents in.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: Law stands at 19.1%.
[00:42:57] Speaker C: That can't be right.
[00:42:58] Speaker D: That can't be right.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Well, overwhelming majority can't be right.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: It ain't 70%, man.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Well, it's not 70%, but. No, it's. What do you.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: What's an overwhelming majority? 51.
[00:43:10] Speaker C: That's probably what it is.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: All right, let's move on from the math and get to your answer.
[00:43:13] Speaker C: Either way. Either way. No, it was not 19% of what I saw. I saw a different statistic. Maybe it was an overwhelming majority. That's the wrong phrase. Okay, so good for you. You bust me on the phrase, but.
[00:43:23] Speaker E: All right, let me get to the actual question here.
[00:43:25] Speaker C: It's a lot, which. So all I say is, yeah, you know, you could say, like, well, if.
[00:43:31] Speaker D: They have to move home with their.
[00:43:32] Speaker C: Parents, there's a difference between, I genuinely don't have a plan and I don't know where I'm going to go. And so it's like, okay, well, just live with mom and dad indefinitely, versus hit some rough times trying to work my way out of it, you know, end up having to go home and stay with them for a bit, or I have this plan and I'm going to be moving out.
[00:43:46] Speaker D: That, to me, feels different. My wife and I stayed with my.
[00:43:48] Speaker C: Parents for the first eight or nine months of our marriage. It wasn't ideal. I mean, mom dad were great, but it wasn't ideal in the fact that.
[00:43:53] Speaker D: I'd love to have a place, but.
[00:43:54] Speaker C: I also had a plan to get us out of that. And once we did, we never went back. So I think that's a. Well, actually, no, we did go back because we needed to. You know, there was for a short period of time. So that's what I'm saying is I still feel like I was in charge of my marriage. I was not, um, you know, I.
[00:44:11] Speaker D: Had left and I had cleft, if.
[00:44:12] Speaker C: We want to say that, leave and cleave. So even though there was staying in the parents house, it just makes it infinitely harder.
[00:44:19] Speaker D: I think it's best to be able.
[00:44:20] Speaker C: To move out on your own.
[00:44:21] Speaker E: The only other thing I would add to this is I do think, though, that there is a kind of an overdoing it, of like, separating from your parents. Like, I don't want to have anything to do with them. I'm going to raise my kids my own way, and I don't really care what they have to say. I think culture is swinging the pendulum way too far in that direction of like, sure, I'd love to see him once a month, but other than that, I kind of want to live my own life and raise my kids the way I want to. And Joe, I'm similar. Like, when we moved back to Tennessee, our plan was to build a house. And so we lived with my parents for a little bit of building. The house did not work out, so we decided, you know what? We'll just buy it. But we lived with them for, I don't think it was quite a year. I think it was eight or nine months. And what I did not expect that was such a blessing was obviously, Jackson was two years old at that point, and Brooklyn was born while we were living there.
The impact, the spiritual impact of having your kids be that close to their grandparents and develop that relationship and have the guidance from them and really treasuring, that was really special.
That's not to say you should always live with them again, we have our own house now, and I do think that's important to establish your own family and to all the things that are important with leaving and cleaving. But I do think culture has kind of overdone the I just want to get away from my parents and live my own life, and I'll see them at the holidays type of thing, which I don't think is healthy. Again, for kids. And having close relationships with your grandparents, I think is vital to their just regular development. But then also spiritual development, because you're right.
[00:45:46] Speaker C: Historically speaking, families were together like, you were going to have uncles and aunts and grandparents, everybody else kind of almost in communes. So historically, they still had a leave and cleave principle, but they were still.
[00:45:56] Speaker D: Very close by in that it's more.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: Of a mindset, in my opinion.
[00:45:59] Speaker D: And it's more also on the in.
[00:46:01] Speaker C: Laws or the parents. How much are they nitpicking? And, like, trying to either vicariously live through the other person or, like, not allow them to be their own people.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: Yeah, and people who have that don't usually seek to live all that close to them.
Will you mention the people who are like, I got to get out of here. There's also the other side of it.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: All right, 18, you're out.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: You're on your own. Tough rocks, buddy. Get after it. And. And you're seeing this, like, with celebrities, like, just rock stars with $500 million. I'm not leaving a dime to my kids.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: Like, you're an idiot.
[00:46:31] Speaker A: I mean, like, literally, proverbs calls you a foolish person who doesn't leave, you know, inheritance to his children, and you're a bad person.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Like, you should be looking.
[00:46:40] Speaker A: And I love that this is starting to come around of people thinking in.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Generational wealth of, like, man, if I can help my kids in this way, give them some land to build on.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Or keep them close and.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: And give them some assistance and not.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: Even just, like, feeding them money all the time, but that, hey, you're there for them so they don't have to pay for babysitting, daycare, stuff like that. And, you know, like, thinking of your.
[00:46:58] Speaker B: Grandkids in that way, in a deuteronomy six kind of way, is really cool.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: And, you know, again, we live pretty close to our parents, will, as you said. And you've had. You still live pretty close to your parents even though you've moved out. Yeah. It is a really great blessing, I will say. There are couples, and sometimes this can. Well, it's really not one or the other. I was going to say it's more.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: The wife than the husband, but it.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Can go both ways. He's a mama's boy, or he's just too attached to his parents.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: She's too much.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: You know, her and her mom are just best friends. Like, okay.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: But then you end up like, they.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: They.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: You need to be closer to your husband than to your.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Your parents.
[00:47:36] Speaker E: The wife calls her mom when she's ticked off at her husband and ran that type of thing.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: And the other side, that is the mom listens to it.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: The mom takes it.
[00:47:43] Speaker A: The mom, you know, is you can always come over here, like, hold on.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Like a good christian.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: I mean, like, there's obviously situations where it's like, you got to get out of there. Like, if there's violence going on. Yeah. Okay, well, that's not what we're talking about. Like, oh, we had a bad day and we disagreed about something.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: Okay, well, you can come stay over here.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: No, that's a sin.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: Like, you get your out of their business.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: That's not okay.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: And so people like that do need some distance.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Like, need to physical distance, where you can't just do that.
[00:48:09] Speaker E: That's the second half of the question that I didn't really address, if, you know, should parents withhold in order for couples to be dependent on each other? And I do think there are some instances where, again, maybe the. The husband is very used to the. The parents picking up the tab or kind of pick. Picking up the slack, and so maybe he's not motivated to go get a better job or really motivated to work more than 40 hours or whatever. I do think there are instances when I, like, if I looked at my son living like that, kind of being a bum. Yeah. I would probably withhold and say, sorry, you know, I'm not gonna be able to help. I'm not gonna be able to help out in those. So I do think there are examples of that in times where that is probably necessary.
[00:48:47] Speaker C: All right, fellas, before I move on, according to a new survey. This is CB's news survey from Harris Pohl for Bloomberg. Roughly, no, it's not an overwhelming majority, but roughly 45% of people, minority number one, living at home with their families.
[00:49:04] Speaker D: The highest figure since the 1940s. More than 60% of Gen Z'ers and.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: Millennials report moving back home in the.
[00:49:11] Speaker D: Past two years, according to the poll, often because of financial challenges.
[00:49:14] Speaker C: That's probably what I saw was the 60% moving back for financial challenges. 45% is way different than 19%. Skip. So is it overwhelming majority? I misspoke. That's pretty close.
[00:49:24] Speaker B: You're wrong on two counts.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: It's not an overwhelming majority. The other thing is, you said 30 year olds.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: 18 to 29 year olds is wildly different from 30 year olds.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: And so, yes, if you skew the numbers and totally twist everything, you look real gross by a year.
[00:49:35] Speaker C: Sorry, I'm off by one year.
[00:49:37] Speaker A: No, you're off by twelve years. You're literally off by twelve years.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: People straight out of high school versus 30 year olds. You said 30 year olds.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: So anyway, we're not going to argue.
[00:49:44] Speaker C: They would be included in that.
[00:49:45] Speaker D: They'd be included in it.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: So if it's 30 year olds, including an 18 year old survey. You keep grabbing the straws, buddy.
[00:49:55] Speaker C: All right, we're getting there. We're getting there.
[00:49:59] Speaker A: All right. Now that we've established Joe's wrong on. That's what I mean, he's out, we're moving on. Okay, we got one on the liturgical.
[00:50:06] Speaker D: In July, 52% of young adults resided with one of their parents.
[00:50:10] Speaker C: Okay, sorry, young adults.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Yeah, 30 year olds aren't young adults, but whatever, these days, you make it mean whatever you want.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:50:19] Speaker B: The liturgical calendar is so interesting as.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: It relates to medieval history. I lost the second half of that question. Did not copy and paste question about.
[00:50:28] Speaker B: Christians following the liturgical calendar.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: A lot of people might not know what that is.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: And part of that is observing the christian holidays and feasts and things like.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: That, just as basic as Christmas and Easter, but also like other days throughout the year.
[00:50:41] Speaker C: Martin. Miss Michael.
[00:50:42] Speaker A: Missdev. Not necessarily.
[00:50:44] Speaker C: Aren't those on there?
[00:50:45] Speaker B: No, that's.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it can be.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: It depends on how obscure you're going.
[00:50:48] Speaker A: But, like Pentecost and.
Yeah, just ascension Sunday and things like that. And there is kind of that.
[00:50:57] Speaker B: Well, in all hallows Eve, we've talked.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: About with Halloween and that before, and it just kind of depends on which version of it. But that can also follow. Like, your church can follow that schedule where you're going to preach on it on those Sundays.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: You're going to have worships on certain.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Things at certain times a year. You also can follow.
Yeah, just.
It's more structured.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Your sermon series are more structured.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Your textual progression through the text is structured. I didn't really get their point about the medieval part of it.
[00:51:26] Speaker B: I know there's a long history of.
[00:51:27] Speaker A: It, but it's interesting. And I think when it's kind of. Some people look at it as, oh, well, you want to celebrate Christmas religiously, you're just bringing in paganism. Or you're missing the point, or you're just kind of wanting to party on like, no, there's a history of looking at the year as not all Sundays are the same.
[00:51:44] Speaker B: And like, let's make them special for different reasons.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: And not like, oh, this is the.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Sunday you need to be at church.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Not that at all. Hey, this week, let's talk about this. Let's talk about that. And it's really funny that we're like, there's some people who would immediately bristle at this, who have the mother's Day.
[00:52:00] Speaker B: Sermon, the father's day sermon, the 4.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: July Sermon, the Church of Christ, fall festival, not trunk or treat, the fall festival, you know, things like that. And it's kind of like.
[00:52:11] Speaker B: So you're following a calendar, you've got a church calendar. This is just a traditional one that you've rejected in favor of the more.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Modern one that Hallmark started putting in place for you. And so, yeah, I think they've got a point about it being interesting. I don't think, you know, like, it's very much an option. And I know a lot of people are not comfortable with it, but it is, you know, neither here nor there. It's not right or wrong. It's just an interesting thing. But yeah, I wish I had known.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: A little bit more what they meant about medieval history.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: If that was you with the. Be sure to shoot me a message or a comment, maybe be able to add on to that at some point, anything before we move on to the next one.
[00:52:48] Speaker C: Thanks.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Alright, we're winding down here.
[00:52:50] Speaker A: We got a few left.
[00:52:52] Speaker E: All right, so the next one. Yeah. So christian symbolism in literature, how do we approach these topics? They say also, Jack, was that the second half of the question? Possibly.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: I think it was the same person asked the question.
[00:53:04] Speaker E: Okay, gotcha. Gotcha so how do we approach these topics without just dismissing all the quote unquote catholic stuff? Um, this is one that I wanted to ask, and then hand over to these two, because as I was trying to think of, like, christian symbolism and literature, we were. We were talking off air. Jack brought up, like, you've got the chronicles of Narnia. You've got, you know, lord of the Rings.
There's not many others that I can necessarily think of, um, off the top of my head. Um, but the question of how do we approach these topics without just dismissing all the catholic stuff. Guys, what are your. What are your thoughts on this one? Kind of similar to the last question about the liturgical calendar.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there is that kind of default thing that the world just thinks of religion through Christianity, through Catholicism. Like, when Tim Tebow was playing football and I was like, oh, he's going to throw a Hail Mary. Like, he's a Baptist. They don't do Hail Marys. Like, that's. But that's what they know. Or it's kind of. It's just got that dominance in the religious world. And so, uh, literally, literarily, they'll come to that sometimes. Or priests who are, you know, like.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: In movies and stuff. The priest kind of stands in for stuff, or even horror movies, which I'm.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Not a fan of at all. But, like, a lot of times it is a catholic priest involved or things like that. As far as symbolism, he brought up Narnia, Lord of the Rings. It's debated, but, I mean, he's pretty strongly that way. And you can see some stuff come out.
I was thinking, Joe's a big Harry Potter guy, and, I mean, that was explicitly christian. I mean, he does the. I'm gonna spoil a book that came out 15 years ago. He does the Jesus thing at the end, kind of lays down his life.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: For his friends and regains his life.
[00:54:37] Speaker A: And, yeah, she just ripped off the story pretty completely.
But, yeah, you see things in there like that. And I'm not the big. I'm not a Harry Potter guy at all, but, yeah, like, I think when you're reading a book with your kids and you see christian symbolism, things that are like that in there, it's useful.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: I mean, sometimes it's overt.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: I'm reading the brothers Karamazov right now, and the guys, you know, lives at an orthodox monastery. I mean, that's. There's not really symbolism.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: It's pretty direct. Other times, it is kind of hidden.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: In the plot, but it's fun to look for. Do you guys have any thoughts on that?
[00:55:09] Speaker C: Jack? It's like, well, Joseph, Harry Potter guy. And, well, I'm reading brothers Karmazov, you know.
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Some of us who are above the 18 to 29 year old young adulthood.
[00:55:21] Speaker C: Oh, my word.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: He's in the young adult section of the library, too.
[00:55:24] Speaker C: That's. But I'm not living at home anymore, so.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: True.
[00:55:27] Speaker C: It's. That's good. But, well, you heard it here first, too, that Harry Potter is christian. So for all you people that worry about it, that's what Jack just told us is Harry Potter.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: I mean, she.
[00:55:37] Speaker E: That's a hot take with Jack right there.
[00:55:39] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: Isn't the last time we defeated his death she quotes in the last book.
[00:55:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. There are, there's a lot of christian symbolism. How should we handle it? Use it as a talking point for people if they're interested in it. Like, you can see themes here as far as the catholic stuff. Spit out the bones if you're reading through it and you go, okay, that really doesn't apply. Or, you know, that's distinctly catholic. Okay, we're not necessarily going to do the Hail Mary's. We're not going to do the pray, the rosary, whatever it is, if there's.
[00:56:10] Speaker D: Any allusions to it or whatnot and.
[00:56:12] Speaker C: Other things, um, by and large, I think we can look at and go, that's cool.
[00:56:17] Speaker D: They, they wove Christ into that story.
[00:56:19] Speaker C: And just appreciate it for what it is or use it as a talking point to really take a secular thing.
[00:56:24] Speaker D: And bring the gospel.
[00:56:25] Speaker C: And I think people could have done that with Harry Potter if we weren't, you know, bashing on it.
[00:56:28] Speaker D: Um, as much. We could have used it as an opportunity to say, yeah, this is a.
[00:56:32] Speaker C: Symbolism for Christ in a way. So, yeah, I mean, even Star wars has a little bit of that, as.
[00:56:38] Speaker D: Crazy as that is.
[00:56:39] Speaker C: It's got eastern mysticism. It's got a lot of different stuff. But I think he draws on some levels of Christianity, and that, that we can look at in. We can bring that part out, talk about it, say, okay, cool, and then move on.
[00:56:50] Speaker D: But is it distinctly christian?
[00:56:51] Speaker C: Absolutely not.
[00:56:53] Speaker A: You know, briefly, Jordan Peterson kind of used to have his Bible lectures all over YouTube. And it was really interesting that, like, at the start of Genesis, he would talk about how much of our. The myths and the stories and the.
[00:57:04] Speaker B: Fairy tales in the world were rooted in Genesis.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: And he looks at it as like, oh, it's the.
[00:57:09] Speaker B: The original myth that brought people together.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: It's like, no, it's true. And that's why everybody riffs on it. That's why so many of the stories.
[00:57:17] Speaker B: So many fairy tales, have christian symbolism.
[00:57:19] Speaker A: Have things that go back to Genesis and Cain and Abel and things like that. Like, that's why it's so rooted into.
[00:57:25] Speaker B: Every story we read, is it's the.
[00:57:26] Speaker A: Ultimate good versus evil story and so many other factors. So that's a good point. Great question.
Let's see.
Oh, man.
[00:57:37] Speaker D: Let's do one more.
[00:57:38] Speaker C: And I want to say we're running.
[00:57:39] Speaker A: Out of time here, Jeff, we're going.
[00:57:40] Speaker C: To do one more. Jack, I want you to speak on absolute succession.
[00:57:43] Speaker D: This is interesting, the belief of apostolic.
[00:57:45] Speaker C: Succession within the eastern orthodoxy, religion, and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives today. That's all it says.
[00:57:51] Speaker D: I don't know that there's a question.
[00:57:52] Speaker C: Attached to it, but what are your. What? Okay, so first off, explain apostolic succession. Talk about that for a bit. Obviously, we've got a couple minutes remaining, so this will have to be fairly.
[00:58:00] Speaker D: Fast for a vast subject.
[00:58:02] Speaker C: So I apologize. But what is apostolic succession for those that are unaware?
[00:58:05] Speaker A: Yeah, and I apologize. If the. That question and the Holy Spirit working in our lives today were supposed to be connected, I don't.
[00:58:12] Speaker B: They might be two separate questions there.
[00:58:14] Speaker A: They just were in the same sentence, so I'm going to handle them as two separate ones. The apostolic succession is that belief that essentially you can draw a line from, like, the church in Ephesus.
[00:58:24] Speaker B: They have a church in Ephesus today.
[00:58:26] Speaker A: And they would say the guy that is there was basically laid his hands.
[00:58:29] Speaker B: On from all the way back.
[00:58:30] Speaker A: You can go to Timothy into Paul and. And he has the same authority. They would have that as Paul the apostle, if.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: If he wrote a letter, if he.
[00:58:37] Speaker A: Told you to do something, that this guy has that same authority. Like, it's. It just the church's authority has been passed down.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Obviously, the Catholics have this in a.
[00:58:48] Speaker A: Little bit of a different way with the pope, and they would draw that back to Peter and things like that. But, yeah, these guys would say the apostles, instead of setting about elders and.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: Preachers and kind of the system that we observe and that every church was.
[00:59:00] Speaker A: Autonomous and it was just going to kind of go from there.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: They view it as a baton passing. Like, I picked you, you're in charge of this church now.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: And of course, you see within a.
[00:59:09] Speaker B: First couple hundred years of Christianity, they.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: Had bishops in these churches.
[00:59:13] Speaker B: One guy kind of running a church.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Or running a collection of churches or whatever it may be. And, yeah, they look at that as that just was passed on, that continued on. And that, because it is a direct.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: Line, because it's hereditary almost in a spiritual sense.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: They have the same authority.
[00:59:30] Speaker B: It's, it's in the same sense of.
[00:59:32] Speaker A: Like, if a guy was a king.
[00:59:34] Speaker B: Over a certain area and he passed it to his son, to his son.
[00:59:36] Speaker A: To his son, to his son, that.
[00:59:38] Speaker B: That'S just how it would work. That's.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: They follow that kind of succession as well.
And I saw somebody make a comment about that the other day, like, well, you know, we've, we've just, we've got the original church.
[00:59:49] Speaker B: It's still around today.
[00:59:49] Speaker A: And it's like, I'm sorry if Paul walked in and saw you wearing that.
[00:59:53] Speaker B: Gold chain around your neck and like.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: All, all of the fancy trappings.
I don't think he would be like, hey, you're just like me.
[01:00:00] Speaker B: I mean, like, so there's, there's a.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: Lot of reasons to question it or.
[01:00:04] Speaker B: Have problems with it, but that is.
[01:00:06] Speaker A: Kind of the, the belief, the teaching there.
[01:00:10] Speaker C: So I don't know that I have too much more to add. I haven't looked at it closely enough. Closely enough to focus.
[01:00:16] Speaker A: The other thing about it was like, do they have the same authority? I would say, like, you look at the apostles, and especially Paul, it is.
[01:00:21] Speaker B: With the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
[01:00:23] Speaker A: And I just don't think you can say that somebody today still has that.
[01:00:28] Speaker B: Level of inspiration, that level of speaking.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: From God and what they do.
[01:00:32] Speaker B: And if you do, that is a.
[01:00:33] Speaker A: Pretty big claim and hard to prove.
[01:00:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's, that's the main.
[01:00:38] Speaker D: Thing that came out of it for.
[01:00:39] Speaker C: Me, is like, it's, you know, in looking at. It's very difficult to prove any of that.
[01:00:44] Speaker D: Like, you are making a very strong.
[01:00:46] Speaker C: Claim about something that is insanely, infinitely difficult to prove. Um, you have to be able, if you're going to make a claim like that, you gotta be able to back.
[01:00:55] Speaker D: That up big time and show all.
[01:00:56] Speaker C: The way down the line. And I just don't think they do. There's a lot of presupposition in that. And, um.
Yeah, so that would be the only thing I'd add to it. But, yeah. Fellas, anything else? I think we, uh, we got through this one. This is a little bit longer than last week's, but, um.
[01:01:11] Speaker D: Anything else?
[01:01:12] Speaker C: Before we wrap up, there were a.
[01:01:14] Speaker A: Couple of great questions about, like, our awareness when we die and stuff like that. We did do a couple episodes on that last year or one episode at the very least. And so go back and check that out. We're not going to have time to address that here, but I didn't want to leave you out in the cold. But, yeah. Thank you to all of you.
[01:01:29] Speaker B: Great questions.
[01:01:30] Speaker D: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[01:01:31] Speaker C: Well, thanks, guys. We will obviously be talking to the deep thinkers from focus plus on Friday.
[01:01:38] Speaker D: In the deep end. But other than that, for everybody else, we will talk to you next Monday.
[01:01:41] Speaker C: Thanks for listening.
