The Church's Mishandling of Sexuality

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of the Think Deeper podcast, presented by Focus Press. I'm your co host Will Harab, joined as always by Joe and Jack Wilkey here in early November. Guys, I was thinking just real quick because I know these discussions are always fun. What's the best month of the year? I think it's got to be either October, November or December 1. Of those three, as far as if you're ranking months, I think that's the top three just in some order. Another, my birthday is in December, so I'm kind of a December guy. But then Thanksgiving is in November, which is objectively the best holiday. So I don't know. We might be in the best month of the year right now in November, but you guys are some of the most opinionated people that I know, so I'm sure you've got a take on this. As far as what is the best month of the year. Let's hear it. [00:00:52] Speaker B: I have either April month of my birthday, but for same reason as November, anticipation. In my opinion, April is spring. It's gorgeous, but you're anticipating summer, so you're starting to get some of the weather of summer. And again, my birthday is happening to be in that time, but then usually most people get out in May, and so you're ready to go for summer. But now that I'm older and I'm not in school, I would say November for the anticipation of you got Christmas coming up. Thanksgiving is the best holiday. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Usually good weather. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's usually decent weather, but you're starting to get some of the cold. So it's good for apple cider, it's good for cup of coffee at night, decaf, it's just a nice time. It's crisp. You might be right, Will. I love November. And again, for the anticipation of things as you're kicking off the holiday season. Since I've disavowed Halloween and don't use that as the holiday season, this is when my holiday season kicks off. [00:01:44] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's pretty nice. So since leaving Texas, I rediscovered how much I love September and October. In Texas, everything turns brown, but it's still 95 degrees. September has the best weather of all year. October, you got the fall colors, you've got NHL starts, NBA starts, football, football is going, NFL is going World Series. It's probably the best sports month, the cooler weather, the cool mornings, but warmer afternoons. Yeah, I'm an October guy, but that's true, really. The last third of the year is just the best part of the year. [00:02:17] Speaker A: Before we get to the episode, we're still going strong with the Godly Young Men podcast. Every Tuesday we're releasing an episode. It's also one of our only YouTube podcasts as far as video podcasts. And so if you consume them more that way just wanted to remind everybody of that. The target age range is young guys ages 15 to 25, but we've got guys that are older than that. Listen, and so I would just encourage you. If you're somebody who's got a young man in your life, a son, brother, spouse, whatever it is, 15 to 25, somewhere in that age range, send them to the Godly Young Men podcast. We cover a wide variety of topics pertaining to being a young man, being a Godly young man. We've had multiple episodes about being Godly husband, being Godly father, the importance of working out. Again, kind of a wide range. A lot of them are very serious, important biblical topics, and then others are just kind of more we still think that they're serious and important, but not as strict on certain things. And so, yeah, maybe a little bit more light hearted. And so we pray that it's been something that's been good for young men, kind of steering them in the direction of Godly masculinity, as opposed to what the World Pushes, which is either a no masculinity or kind of a cheap, off brand, fake, generic version of masculinity. And so, yeah, I would just say again, if you've got a young man in your life, or if you are a young man listening to this podcast and did not know about the Golly Young Men podcast, take a look at it either on YouTube or on your podcast app. That's all that I've got, guys. Anything else we want to cover before we get into the episode? Yeah, Joe, go ahead. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Yes, we are. And I think you're getting to this, or maybe you said it and I zoned out. I apologize. I hear kids in the back. [00:03:55] Speaker A: No, I did not take it. Yeah. [00:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah. We're looking to do a limited engagement because with our schedule specifically either your schedule, Will, we are looking to do four different speaking engagements next year. Now, that could be for if you are looking for maybe a youth rally, or if you're looking for a men's retreat or whatever it may be, or just for us to come to your church. Will and I are looking to offer that. We still offer our Think Deeper seminar. If anybody's interested. Jack has a couple seminars on his own. I don't know if you're still offering the Lost Generation. Obviously. Church reset's a big one. You've done, Will. I think you've got your own with youth and maintaining or helping with youth and family coming together. I have a couple on sexuality. I have been developing one on masculinity myself. But Will and I are very excited about this. First off, we just love traveling together. So if you want us to come to your church, that'd be a good time. But also, yeah, we're excited to be able to present some of the gym podcast ideas and offerings and such in person. So if you're interested in that, we are, again, four at max five, but I think we're sticking at four speaking engagements next year. [00:05:00] Speaker A: So if you are interested, lock them in now. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Lock them in now because we're going to get things set and get things rolling. So yeah, we just wanted to mention that as well, but I think there's been a bit of a long introduction. So Jack, go ahead and get us into the outline and the topic for today. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we're going to start up front with a disclaimer. This is not the listen in the car with your family one. So I'm sorry if you're currently listening in the car with your family odly enough. I think it was last November, we did a little bit on sexuality. We had Dr. Brad Harabon to talk about fertility practices, especially episodes that people found very useful. And so we're glad for that. But we're coming back at it, just re examining sexuality and the church and essentially how to talk about it as the church. That's something that's really hard. It's kind of out there that we don't and so when I say disclaimers, we're just going to say it. We're going to say words that you might not want to hear, have younger kids here understandable. Hopefully you can catch this at a later time if they're around right now. But having said that, we'll go ahead and get into it. It's something that from the pulpit, you can kind of talk about it generically, but it's really hard to get into specifics. Christian couples have questions. I mean, Joe, as a therapist, deals with some of these questions coming up, but you hear about it in these discussions and kind of what should be talked about, what shouldn't be talked about. Some of those questions, frequently asked questions, what are they and what are good scriptural answers for them? What does the Bible have to say about any of this? It's a hard discussion to have because it's awkward because it's not for all ages and so it's pretty kind of hard to have sermons on it. But on the other hand, even in adult classes, we don't get into the specifics all that much. And so that's what we wanted to explore and kind of talk about how difficult this whole conversation is because of the negatives surrounding all of so let's get into that to start with. [00:06:59] Speaker A: That's what I was going to get into to start the discussion. Joe, then I'll hand it off to you. It's the two ditches thing that we talk about so much on this podcast. We in the church, see the one ditch that is really, really bad, which is the way the world presents sex, which is the way the world talks about it and glorifies it, and it is everything to them. And of course they pervert it, they twist it, they degrade it into all of these just, again, things that are debaucherous. And so we in the church, see that? That's a really bad ditch that we don't want to fall into. So what do we do? We go all the way to the other side of the road and we risk falling into the other ditch, which is never talking about it, never answering questions that Christians have. I mean, a lot of times we act like it doesn't exist. And this is what and maybe this is not the place to bring it up, but this is why I think this is such a big deal and something that we have to be talking about is because we don't really discuss it in the home very much. A lot of Christian households with kids, they don't talk about it. And I know that because I've talked to a lot of young people. It's like, yeah, that never gets brought up in our house. We don't bring it up in the church. And so it's almost like we relegate it to a nonexistent part of our life. Like, yeah, we kind of acknowledge that it exists, but we don't ever talk about it. And so in my opinion, and I think these guys share that opinion that's almost just as bad of a ditch that you're swinging to the other side of the road to fall into that ditch because we don't want to be over there with the world and degrading it and perverting it. Yes, agree. We're going to talk a lot about that here in just a second. But as we set this episode up, both sides of the road, both ditches on the side of the road are really bad that we don't want to fall into. And the church right now, again, I also think in most people's, households within the home, they're about to fall into the ditch of their kids. And a lot of couples, Joe, you could talk more about this. They're going to the world for their answers. They're going to the Internet for their answers. They have questions, they're curious. They want to know they're not going to the church because we don't bring it up. Kids aren't going to their parents because we don't talk about it. That's really bad as well. [00:09:01] Speaker C: Joe, what have you I want to add this just briefly before you get in, Joe, that as you get older, like as a kid, you don't hear about it or whatever, and as you get older, the time you do hear about it or hear Christians talk about it, it is in a joking manner. It's in that taboo thing, kind of. And that in itself, I think, adds to the confusion, adds to the difficulty. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Sure, I've lamented this before, but you go your entire life, maybe you got the talk, 15 minutes. It's as awkward for the parents as it is for you. [00:09:31] Speaker A: And a lot of parents don't even do that. [00:09:32] Speaker B: A lot of parents don't even do that. You get to marriage, it's never discussed. And if it is, it's like, don't do it, don't do it. And then you get a 15 minutes classic Church of Christ ceremony, and all of a sudden, the entire world of sex has opened up to you. And we wonder why people struggle. [00:09:44] Speaker C: Well, or the other thing is ten or twelve years old, if you went to public school or whatever school, you got the sex ed class. Oh, yeah, well, not that I'm just saying the sex ed class. And then you've got a bunch of twelve year olds hearing this stuff going and I mean, I wasn't publicly educated, it I was on sports teams with the kids that were and you could tell when they had had that class, they came to practice, that's all they were talking about. And you got all these twelve year olds talking about everything they learned and it's like, yeah, that's a healthy way to teach. This is just throw it out to they need to know. But like teaching them in a group setting and then letting them go and dissect everything they learned, pretty weird. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Well, and a lot of people learn their sexuality through porn and so when they get into marriage, they have all the expectations of thinking their wife is a porn star and that's not the case. And so no wonder why we have so many marriages that are really messed up. At the back end of the episode, we're going to spell some things out and work on some things and kind of work our way through the text, biblically, through culture, where we're at. But on the back end, and this is something Jack came up with, I love this. Advice for pre marriage, advice for young married, advice for married with kids, and advice for older married folks. We're going to give advice for all four. We're going to try to do two to three or maybe four different points for each because there are so many dysfunctional marriages when it comes to sexuality. I work with this a lot, so trust me, I've seen this. These things are out there. And I think there's a lot of people that man their sex life is not great and they may be happily married, but their sex life is terrible. And a lot of times what I would say is they're not happily married because the sex life mirrors the relationship of the rest of the marriage. Not that the sex is the most important, it's a microcosm of the rest of the relationship. Whether they're connected, whether they're intimate with one another, whether they are able to connect regularly, or if they go in long spells of a month, two months, three months without it. So there's a lot that sexuality says about the life of a relationship of a marriage. We're going to get into that some. [00:11:33] Speaker A: And one of the things that we want to do with this episode and it's a frustration of mine that a lot of pulpits do, and I think Jack briefly referenced it is if we do talk about it, it's very generic, it's very vague, nothing specific, nothing that's very helpful because it's all just kind of ambiguous. And I guess, Jack, you did already bring this up. We are going to get specific. We are going to talk about no, this is practical advice. These are things that we're not just going to kind of give the generic answer to. Yeah, go ahead, Joe. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to say we don't say from the pulpit because kids are present, right? [00:12:04] Speaker C: Well, we don't want kids here. [00:12:05] Speaker B: That's fine. So then we have an adult Bible class and we still say nothing, do the same thing. What's the excuse now? Kids aren't present. What's the excuse now? Well, now it's just really awkward. Well, while we've been super awkward about it, the world has been advancing an agenda for the last really a hundred years that has decimated America and gotten to the point where the church has relegated sex so much. It's not part of we have no sexual theology at all. We have no idea how it relates to God. And the world continues to advance the ball where we are doing things that would make Sodom and Gomorrah blush. Truly, it's unbelievable the amounts that we have out there and what have we done? Where has the church been? We've been silent. We've said nothing about this. And we wonder why we have so many people that fall prey to porn addictions, that fall prey to adultery, that fall prey to sexual fornication, to all sorts of sexual deviancy. What did you expect? You don't talk about it. You leave this vacuum and they fill it with the world. Go figure. [00:12:58] Speaker C: I don't want to jump ahead of us too much here, but this is also one of the really big issues of the intergenerational thing and tradition and things being passed down. This is stuff that maybe we shouldn't have to address from the pulpit, on a podcast, in classes or whatever else that the older women should be teaching the younger women. Men can have these discussions among themselves and hey, young buck, this is what you need to know. Or hey, you're not handling this right, or whatever, like you could treat your wife better, maybe your sex life will be better, things like that. We don't have those kind of male to male relationships or male only spaces and those kind of conversations. Women, the advice and you come across this a lot the advice from older generations is awful. This whole women hate sex and it's just a chore. It's you got to do for your husband. That's the stuff that's been passed down in recent generations, you can't look to them that is no help whatsoever when you've got the older women doing that kind of stuff. And so their understanding of their sexualized culture and what they grew up in and what they're parsing out. We're having to go back again to the basics, to the scriptures, but also to human tradition of how this should be to get this back on track. Because man it's one of those where you're just looking at something and going, how do I fix this thing that's broken? And there's just some things that you go, that's not fixable. Let's throw that whole paradigm out and work on something like, go, just start from the ground up again. Because the porn thing, it's not fixable. If a guy comes into marriage with a porn view of sex not fixable. You got to scrape the whole thing. If you come in with that, oh, I'm going to hate this view of sex not fixable. We've got to scrap a lot of stuff. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, get it down to the foundation, so to speak. Down to the studs, as they say. You look at where has this problem gone? Or what you might say, well, isn't it better to not discuss sex? And again, will to your point, the other ditch right to just hypersexualizing things. We've created the hypersexual because we have to remember, sex is God's thing. Sex is inherently a Godly thing. Why did we let them take it? It would be like if we let them take communion and pervert it and they ended up doing all sorts of stuff. That's our thing. That's our thing. God created it. God instituted this. Why did we take something that's beautiful, something that's intimate, something that God designed and allow them? But Satan's been doing this for years. Satan's been distorting these things for years. But you look at what has come into the culture, the hypersexualization, the TikTok, the only fans where girls, random girls are taking their clothes off, like, how do we get to this point where they have no dignity? Right? You look at the guys like, was it John Money? And what's the other? [00:15:40] Speaker A: Alfred Kinsey. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Thank you. Alfred Kinsey. Couldn't remember the guy's name. Alfred Kinsey. The sexologist of the they were Hirschfield and all the way back into the Germany of the 1910s and such. You got some serious weirdos out there who have been pushing these ideologies. Freud was another one. He sexualized everything. And it was kind of like the fringe. Yeah, those are kind of the weirdos. And then somewhere around the was flower power, they decided, hey, we're just going to do our own thing. Sexual revolution. 70s is sex, drugs, rock and roll, do whatever you want. 80s seemed to kind of lean more toward money. But this is the rise of MTV. This is where you're sexualizing regular stuff. Yeah. You could always find the Playboy magazines that I think that started 1957. You could always find the Playboys, the Hustlers, things like that. But sex was you go to the CD parts of town with things like MTV and then into the Internet of the AOL. [00:16:30] Speaker A: It became very visual and accessible. [00:16:32] Speaker B: It became very visual, very accessible and in the day to day. And that's the difference is I could turn on the TV and instead of going to the Playboy Channel, I could watch it on MTV. Highly sexualized duran Duran and Def Leppard and all the hair bands of the such. I don't think Duran Duran is a hair band, but whatever. Well, sexualizing everyday life. [00:16:51] Speaker C: You also go from I Love Lucy or whatever, the shows in the 60s, brady Bunch, whatever, they've got, like, separate beds for the couple. And I don't remember which one of those it was, but that was, like, the TV standard to the point in the 90s where your major sitcoms, all the characters, have a new girlfriend that they're talking about, they're sleeping with. Yeah, but then you also had like I think it was not that I watched it, but just having studied the history of this, I think it was NYPD Blue was the first one that started putting really sexual content on, you know, ABC or whatever channel. It know, 07:00 at this again, you don't have to go looking for it. It's right there before the news. I mean, the decline in 30 years was just insane. [00:17:37] Speaker B: And so that's how we get to today is everything sexual. And I think it started with allowing it to be more mainstream, more mainstream, more mainstream. Until the point where we always use Miley Cyrus. We're beyond Miley Cyrus at this point. She was kind of the disgusting one of the we're even beyond that into what they're doing. And so we have hyper sexualized the culture. [00:17:57] Speaker A: I was just going to say we get to the point where who was it on the Grammys last year? Cardi b, wasn't it? That's like, that's just perverted sexual, basically pornographic performance on live television that basically the world sees no problem with. I guess your point is it all started really in the 50s with kind of that. And the end result is where we've gotten to now with the drag queen story hour, with the pornographic performance on the Grammys, and the world doesn't seem to acknowledge that how far it's gotten to, like you said, making Sodom and Gomorrah blush. This is where we are now and. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Where'S the church been since the 50s. We should have been driving this. We should have been reclaiming whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, we're going to talk about this. We're going to get a positive sexual theology. We're not going to let our kids be part of the sexual revolution. And yet how many parents stood by and watched as their kids engaged in LSD and going to Woodstock and sleeping around? You know what I mean? There are plenty of church members that the kids were doing it either unbeknownst to them or just said, hey, we don't care anymore. And they kind of sat around and said, well, what are you going to do? And the next thing you know, they're kids and so they kind of sow their wild oats. And that's the baby boomers. You have Gen X who comes along and Gen X is more of the 1980s just make money, right? I mean, it's fascinating. The point and I don't mean to beat a dead horse on this, but it's so fascinating to see the points in culture that make a difference and how every generation views sex. I think our generation, millennials really started viewing it almost as a transaction, right? And it's not so much the prostitution, but kind of like, this is our social status, our social standing, and it's who we are. We started defining ourselves. And Gen Z, you're really seeing this with all of the rampant transgenderism. They define themselves by sex. That's a really dangerous thing to do. But when the Church doesn't give you an alternative, what are you going to do? You're going to define yourself by your sexuality? Because the Church isn't saying, hey, here's why it's good to be heterosexual. Here's why it's really good to be a man. Here's why it's really good to be a woman. We don't have those discussions. These are the podcasts that make it biggest. Here is our masculinity and femininity, why we don't talk about it. [00:20:10] Speaker C: Problems, too, is like the efforts that have been to go counterculture have just been using their framing. Like, there was the modest is hottest thing. So you're agreeing that hottest is best, but this is just the different way to do it. Like, oh, I'm coming at it from the other angle. And then literally, this is one of the weirdest things in the world, but you see this from time to time. They sell T shirts that say Virginity Rocks. And it's like, I'm cool because I don't sleep. It's not about being cool. It's about being virtuous. It's about knowing what you're after and having your values lined up and things like that. But it's just this accepting of their framing. And that's got to go again, as I said earlier, throw the whole thing out and just start on hey, as a young man and what you guys are trying to push with Godly young men, you're going to be a virtuous man who treats women the right way. As Paul told Timothy, treat them as sisters because they ain't your wife yet. And with the dignity and honor as women, you're not going to go out there flaunting and flirting and throwing this at guys. No. You know who you are. And that those are good things. [00:21:15] Speaker A: And can I just say, and this is a point, Jack, you kind of brought up a second ago. This falls 75%, maybe even higher on the dads at home. That's who it falls on. Jack, you're talking about teaching your sons to be virtuous towards women. I'm sorry, that's the father's responsibility. Teaching your daughters to not just uncover themselves at all hours of the day and post it all over social media and seek out guys for attention. I'm sorry. That's also on the fathers. And I understand that not every young person has a dad in their life. Most of them do. And so I'm not talking about those who don't. I'm talking about those who do. To me, this is why we hit this a lot in the Godly Young Men podcast. We hit this a lot on this podcast. The home has got to be reclaimed. The sexuality, biblical sexuality, has got to be reclaimed yes, by the church. It's got to start with dads, because that's who it's on. And we've got way too many dads who sit back, they're watching the TV shows that maybe they grew up on, the TV shows with friends and seinfeld or whatever. And so they don't really see it as that big a deal. But they're letting the world they're letting public schools disciple their kids into the world's, sexual theology. And so, again, I'm sorry, I lay 80% to 90% of the blame for this on fathers, because they're the ones not stepping up and teaching their sons how to be virtuous and chivalrous. They're the ones letting their daughters, maybe even buying the clothes for their daughters that make them look like prostitutes out on the street and posting it all over social media. It's on the dads, in my opinion. [00:22:44] Speaker C: Well, and we're going to beat this dead horse, play this broken record, whatever metaphor you want. If Dad's got a porn problem, he's not stepping up and handling this. And that is such a massive statistically I mean, it's a huge issue. And so, of course, they're not going to drive that train. [00:23:00] Speaker B: And if they have a very frustrated sex life, the husband and wife dad is going to have a very difficult time really taking charge, sexually speaking, in the home, to say, this is the way we're doing it. We have a positive, healthy sexual theology in this home. God rules over this domain. That's not in his marriage, that's not while he's looking at porn. So who is he to step in and start establishing this grand vision? And I would say every dad needs a vision going forward as to what are we going to do about this, how are we going to train our sons not to engage in this stuff, how are we going to make sure the relationship matters most? And how are we going to make sure our own sexuality is not currency? My daughter's hot, therefore she's got a lot of sexual currency in the bank, right? She's got a lot of sexual money, so to speak, or, well, we got to play to our strength. No, stop viewing sex as a currency and start viewing it as something that's that's dignified, something that's holy unto God and start viewing it in a positive way that is, again, a Godly thing. We can't work from that framework when we ourselves are not Godly and when we ourselves don't have a positive sexual theology and we're not living it out in our homes. And so that kind of brings us into unless we have something else. We want to go into. I wanted to bring it into what does the Bible say about it? We talk about it being Godly all day long. [00:24:09] Speaker C: Well, we just talked about all the problems, and I just want to say there might be a husband or a wife listening and like, well, that's us. We've got this problem in our home. We're going to get to advice here in a minute. But if you're in a place where that's the problem and you're not handling it, you're not teaching your kids the right way, you don't have the good life yourself, you got to talk about it. This has to be communicated. As a friend of mine, I was kind of looking for feedback and suggestions on the episode. It said, just teach couples. You need to talk about this amongst yourselves of like, why don't we have a better one? I would like a better one. Let's figure out how to and part of the problem that's hindering that is if he's got a porn problem, whether she knows it and he's got to own up to it or she doesn't and he's going to have to confess it, okay, that's a really big hurdle. Get over that hurdle so you can make things better. Things don't get better until you get over that hurdle. And even if you don't have that problem, start opening up the conversation to figure out how do we improve this? Because a lot in our home flows from if we do this right or not. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Well, that's such a good point, because a lot of people want to fix they'll come see me for problems with their sex life, and I immediately go, okay, tell me about the rest of the marriage. I don't care about your sex life until I know the rest of the marriage is in line. Because when the rest of the marriage is in line, the sex life will be. So if you're struggling, sexually speaking, what is your communication like? Do you feel you can communicate about that? Is your communication good? Are you leading each other or is the husband leading the wife? [00:25:35] Speaker C: Spiritually? [00:25:36] Speaker B: Do you have an emotional connection? Women need to feel safe in the sex life, and a man needs to feel like he can conquer and like he can be the stud. Right. He wants to be a good man of God and know that when he comes to his wife, she wants him and he wants her. And it's a beautiful thing if that's not taking place in the day to day, you guys don't want one another. It's a logistical marriage where all you talk about is logistics, and then you come to the bedroom and expect to be satisfied. Of course not. You're not going to be satisfied. So working on your sex life starts far before you ever get to the bedroom. It is. How do you live the day to day and how intimate are you in your lives because secrets destroy. To your point, Jack, if a man struggles with porn, oh, I could never tell my wife. She knows. And she may not cognitively know. She knows deep down, and she will close off, because this is the way a husband and wife is. If you guys have been married long enough, she absolutely knows something's off, and that destroys intimacy quicker than anything else. Secrets and lies. And what I see helps the most as a guy comes out, he talks about his porn addiction, or he talks about, I'm working with a guy right now who I've cheated on you three separate times, right. With three separate women. Breaks the marriage. It goes down to the studs, the foundation. To your point, Jack, we can't just work with what we have. We have to decimate everything and build up a new house. It can be done. But you will never have a fulfilling sex life if there are secrets in the marriage. And if you guys are holding things back from one another, it just won't happen, because there will never be full intimacy, which is why fornication is wrong too. How can you open yourself up when they might leave you tomorrow? Right? I mean, we'll get into that little bit. [00:27:06] Speaker C: I didn't want to derail getting into the Bible thing. I just wanted to leave it if like, hey, if you got this problem, talk about it first, and we'll get to more advice here in a bit. But I just wanted to not leave that hanging without giving some actionable thing. If somebody's listening going, yeah, that's us. [00:27:21] Speaker B: And I wasn't even planning on getting into that advice later. But yes, communicate about it, talk about it. [00:27:25] Speaker C: So if you want to get into the next thing now, I won't derail. [00:27:27] Speaker B: You will if you want to get into you're all right, if you want to get into the biblical will take us away, specifically in terms of God, basically why God created it. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So we've talked about the way the world takes it and the way the world hypersexualizes everything. What we've got to start addressing, asking, and answering is, what does the Bible say about it? Because the Bible does have a lot to say about it. And so we need to know that. We need to be able to teach these answers to their kids. And I think it starts with understanding. Joe, you brought it up earlier. Just the very basic principle that God created it himself kind of know. God is the one who instituted marriage. God instituted sex. That was his thing that he created. But why? What is the reason for that? And, Joe, this is something we talked about on our Godly Young Men podcast actually very recently, is that if you asked a high school class, even an adult class, hey, why'd God create sex? What's the point of it? What's the purpose us of it? You'd either get a lot of blank stares of people going, I don't know, or what would be the most common answer that you get? Why do God create sex? What would be the most common answer that you think we get? Oh, for reproduction, right. Yeah. Procreation to have kids. That's kind of been what the church has relegated the teaching of sex to, is that it's just for reproduction, it's just for procreation. And so, again, if you listen to the Golly Men podcast, I apologize, this is going to be a bit of a kind of a recap here, but most people, I don't think, do. And so the point that we made in that podcast was young people look at the church's definition of sex and purpose for sex, and it's what? It's just reproduction, having kids. Then they look at what the world, the way the world paints sex, and what do they see? Oh, fun, pleasure. And so it's no wonder that they head towards the world's definition, the way the world paints it, because we in the church only paint it for reproduction purposes. And so, Joe, you talk about one of your favorite books in the Bible, right? But no, you have done a lot of study in this book, and I think it's actually going to go up on Focus Plus here in the next several months as far as a study class on it. But that's Song of Solomon and the fact that Joe's brought up before, if sex is just for reproduction and procreation, what on earth is Song of Solomon doing in the Bible? And so, Joe, I'll let you go off on that if you want, and go ahead and get started on that. But basically, as we're still answering the question, why did God create sex, we got to turn to places like Song of Solomon. [00:29:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Where does Song of Solomon ever mention kids in procreation? [00:29:47] Speaker C: It doesn't. [00:29:48] Speaker B: It's an entire book about sex, and people know is it allegorize, I think, where they make it an allegory right, oh, it's about Christ and his church, or it's about God and his people. Okay, that is insanely explicit, if that's the case. I don't think that God and his people are talking about oral sex the way they are in the book. It is not an allegory. It is very much a physical thing of physical love between two people. And whether you take it to be Solomon writing it, or Solomon about a specific woman, him writing about the ideal, or somebody writing under the name of Solomon, I'll get into that when we come out with it on understudy for Focus Plus. But either way, this is the ideal in a relationship. This is a husband and wife choosing one another, and it walks through pre marriage into the marriage and after marriage throughout the book, the timeline of the book. And it's a weird read, but it's so fascinating. And there's a couple of things that I think are important to point out. First off, again, no kids. It's not talking about that. It's about a husband and wife pleasing one another. Second off, there are mentions of God in this. I think it's right toward the end there is a mention of God. But it's two clearly, people grounded in God coming together, doing something that's beautiful. They're not having sex initially, then they are, which is they're abstaining from it before marriage. Then they have the marriage ceremony, right? And he comes in on his couch or whatever, and then they have it from there. So we can get a positive sexual theology from that. What I find very interesting in this book, both man and woman describe and I think I went into this on the gym podcast, but both men and women describe the other person's body. Now, in ancient literature, we see this. This is very close to Egyptian poetry at the time. This is close to other poets that are taking place. It's always the man describing the woman. It's wooing her, right? In Song of Solomon, she describes the man. I find that to be fascinating. Why is that so interesting? Because it shows this is a two way street. A man and a woman are both supposed to be fulfilled in sex. That is biblical. That is something that so you see all these women that as they get into marriage, it's like the whole job is just, I'm supposed to fulfill my husband, and you're never really going to enjoy sex, but just give it to him and then things will get better and he'll leave you alone for a time. [00:31:55] Speaker A: No, that is not the picture song of Solomon. [00:31:57] Speaker B: That is not the picture song of Solomon paints scripture shows this is a man and woman coming together in unity. It's a beautiful thing. She is in love with his body just as much as he's in love with her body. And yes, bodies, they're not describing, oh, he's so kind. He treats me well. No, I love this about your body. He's so strong, his ABS, things like that. She's describing things that would make us blush if we were to read it from the pulpit. It is a beautiful description of you ought to find your wife beautiful. You ought to find your husband handsome. Why don't you bring that into the bedroom the way they do? And to have this blossoming sex life, that is just a beautiful thing that you're bringing together before God in a way that is intended to basically be the pinnacle of intimacy. And I really think that's what sex is. That's why God created it. It's the pinnacle of intimacy. When you've been open, spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, the physical follows. You will have a much better sex life when you are intimate in the other areas as you kind of work up the triangle, so to speak. And that's a different thing. Maybe I'll do something on focus. Plus, about that. But there is a beauty to sex when it's done in the proper context and when both man and women, the man and the woman are enjoying it, the husband and the wife, it is intended for both. So that's what drives me nuts the most, is when the woman goes, well, that's a male thing. We're not really supposed to enjoy sex. Wrong. Try again. Go read Song of Solomon and realize that this is a beautiful thing in Scripture that points to that being the case. But I also think it's interesting that Satan is what does he attack first? So many of the major sins in the Bible are Satan attacking sex. You look at as soon as Noah gets off the ark, right? Well, what do we see in, what is it, genesis four or Genesis six rather, with the Nephilim, they come down, they're mating with the daughters of man. So there's sex involved. Get off the ark. Ham sees his father's nakedness. That's a sexual problem. Judah and Tamar is a sexual problem. Joseph is running from the woman, lot and his wife and his daughters. And what's going on in Sodom and Gomorrah? That's just in Genesis alone. You go all the way throughout and how sexuality has really just been rampant. Temple prostitution is a big problem. Yeah, David and Bathsheba satan attacks people through sex all the time. And you can also see the way that there is an allegory speaking of God and his people, because we see it with hosea, right? And Gomer, there's an aspect of sex is intended to be holy, it's intended to be intimate. It's intended to be a covenant relationship, the blossoming or again, the pinnacle of that covenant relationship. And that does very much mirror our relationship with God. So God uses sex throughout Scripture satan uses sex throughout Scripture to distort man's view. I mean, it's a big thing and people look at it and go, boy, the Bible doesn't really have much to say about it. It has a lot to say about it. [00:34:41] Speaker C: I want to add, and I think it's a very important point, that Song of Solomon shows that sexuality is not purely procreational. Because, man, you look back on church history and there were a lot of really messed up teachings of almost sex is bad, sex is only for procreation or whatever. And so you need this corrective. On the other hand, we're at a time now where we need the other corrective of, oh, and by the way, procreation is a really big part of this because you've got this time and we've railed against it before. Well, we don't really think we want to have kids. And again, always disclaimer. We're not talking about those who can't, those that can and have decided, well, we're just going to use medical to not make that happen. That almost always introduces problems to the marriage, because you were designed for that this is one of the purposes of it. And if it is because that is. [00:35:33] Speaker A: A position founded on selfishness. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Well, and the other thing is it. [00:35:37] Speaker C: Turns sex into there's no production from it. There's no end to it on that sense. And so, again, might as well be you don't need the other person there. I mean, that is the two becoming one and that's the genesis thing and all that. And so it is more than that. But it's not less than that. It's one of those things of like, you need an eye to that end and not like you're just constantly trying to have children, but that if you never want to, that's going to be a problem in itself. And so it fulfills that. It fulfills the bond. It does all of these things at once. [00:36:14] Speaker A: That's a very valuable needed point because you do see kind of that swing. The other side I want to get into because Joe, I think you said, stated very well, basically the epitome of this is how much the Bible talks about it and this is why it's a good let's. Did you have anything else to add before I actually big question. [00:36:32] Speaker B: I'm going to say go listen to our Godly Men podcast on sex. In my opinion. I think we do even more of a deep dive on that. This one we're trying to hit a lot on that one. We're hitting specifically the purpose of sex. I go a little deeper into some things, just talk about it a little bit more and will you have some really good thoughts on that as well? Go check that out. [00:36:52] Speaker A: As you said, we talked about in the episode that if you're a young man and you don't know the purpose of sex, you probably shouldn't get married. And yet 80, 75% of young men who do get married don't know the purpose of it. And yeah, we wonder why everything's so messed up. So I want to get into this question that's kind of really the hot button question of the episode is should we I think we've already acknowledged that we should talk about it more, but should Christian men talk about this with their male friends and women with their female friends? In other words, does this conversation, sex life, sexuality, does it need to remain, quote unquote, in house? Does it need to remain kind of stay under wraps, so to speak, and not really be brought up? Or is it within bounds, so to speak, for guys to talk about it with other guys and obviously females talk about with other females? And if it can be if we think that it can be discussed, what are the out of bounds limits, so to speak? What are the things that's like, no, that needs to stay between you and your spouse? Because I know that there are people who basically any kind of sexual discussion, their position is needs to stay between the husband and wife. And then there are also people who would go the other way and say no, pretty much anything is within bounds and on limits to discuss with. Again, guys with guy friends and females with female friends, I think I fall in the middle. I don't think it's necessarily either one of the extremes there. But guys, what do you have to because the thing that we started the episode talking about that is so critically important to understand is that Christian couples, husbands, wives, they have questions about this, they have curiosities about this. Do other couples struggle with this, those types of questions that they can't really go to the church? They can, but most people don't go to the church for those answers. And so that's be, I guess, the first thing that I would say in my support for why I think Christian men can talk about it with other Christian men and why females can do the same, is because listen you understand that there are questions that you're going to have about your sex life? That it's just one of those things that I don't know. God created it. We're supposed to have the church is supposed to be family. I think there is a time and a place for are you struggling in this area? What are some things that maybe have helped you guys as a couple? And obviously, again, the more graphic and detailed you get is when you start getting into the out of bounds limits. But that's the first thing that I would bring up, is that we're going to have struggles in these areas. I think we need to lean on each other in support of fellow brothers and sisters. But what do you guys have to add about that as far as should it remain in house or should it not? [00:39:23] Speaker C: I would say always start from a place of respect for your spouse. There's things that don't need to be seen to be said, things that we talked about, about them and the way they do things or are or certain things. And so always start with that. Similarly, the same gossip rules apply. Like, if this is not something you're willing to talk about with them, it's one thing to go and ask for advice of, like, hey, my spouse does this, and I'm not sure if that's normal or is it out of bounds for me to ask for this to be different or whatever. Okay. But don't have that conversation with somebody else that you wouldn't have with your spouse, because this is a thing that binds you two together more than anybody else on Earth. And so it needs to be your thing. And these discussions should be to help your thing, not to vent, not to run them down, not to whatever else. And so I think start from that point. But with that in mind, then those are guidelines for moving forward, I guess. [00:40:21] Speaker B: So I got a hot take. [00:40:24] Speaker C: Oh boy, here it goes. [00:40:26] Speaker B: I think it's been a while since. [00:40:27] Speaker C: I met one of these. [00:40:27] Speaker B: We have so for men, I would say in these groups, it's very easy to run your spouse down, right? To run your wife down if she doesn't do this, doesn't do that. To your point, Jack? Absolutely not. This is not a time to vent in those ways. It's time to ask questions. I'm all for those groups. Here's my hot take. Women's groups are horrible. They are absolutely horrible. They are a breeding ground for terrible advice and for gossip. [00:40:53] Speaker A: This is a hot take and a correct take. [00:40:55] Speaker B: I will say it is brutal because I will see these there's occasionally anonymous ones that are sent or whatever. And as a therapist, she'll ask me so and so, struggling with this, what are your thoughts on this? What would you do with this? And I tell her, well, this is this. We had one, just the other. It was an anonymous thing about something. And she goes, what you just said is the exact opposite of what everybody else is saying. Now, that doesn't necessarily make me right, but she's telling me some of the takes that they had and it's like this is horrible advice that would lead toward divorce. If this person takes this advice, it will not go well for them. But you got a bunch of Dr. Phil's out there and in women's groups, it's specifically bad, where it's called gaslighting, where, oh girl, you've got this. They're either feminist or in an attempt to not be feminist, they swing to the other direction. And your husband's always right. You can never question the fact that he's out there with all these women at his place of work and doesn't come home for 9 hours and you're going, that's kind of weird. Don't ever question him. He's working real hard. Are you kidding me? [00:41:56] Speaker A: I was going to ask you to some practical examples of that bad advice. Again, talking about being specific, what is it that is so bad about those? What are they saying? [00:42:07] Speaker B: Well, a lot of times they either push for just support your husband no matter what, don't ever have questions, don't ever question him because it will hurt his ego or whatever else you can't possibly ask for him to change anything because that's really wrong. Or they go to you need to stand up for yourself and you probably just need to look to leave things like that. And that's on the extreme end. But I've seen a lot where it's either ultra feminist or ultra just you just need to take whatever comes and don't ever stand up for yourself. And I think that is terrible advice. So somebody comes with sexual issues and you usually are going to get one on one of those. You're going to get some on those extremes. So what I would say is, if you are a woman be very choosy about who you talk to. And if you do, put it out anonymously to one of those groups. Just because somebody says it doesn't make it right. Every grain of salt. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Go ahead, Joe. I'll finish hot take as well. I was just going to say I don't think these are discussions need to be had over social media. I don't think Facebook groups are the place for play. When I read this question on our outline and should Christian men talk about with their male friends, women with their women friends? I'm thinking around a coffee table. I'm thinking in person together. I do not think Facebook groups are the place for this because I think we've used this illustration before. Could you imagine a men's Facebook group where they're talking about this like, no, that's weird, that's strange. But some reason for women it's acceptable. This is one of the plagues of social media is we think that that Roundtabling something over social media is the best place for it because it's more accessible for everybody. No, it's not. That would be my only addition to your hot take is let's kill the social media Facebook groups of discussing when it's as important of a topic as this and marriages are at stake and maybe even salvation is at stake. I'm sorry. Get off of Facebook and actually do it in person or over the phone. [00:43:54] Speaker C: Consider the source is one of the best pieces of advice we were always given growing up. And you don't know these people on social media. You don't know if they are marriage experts or if their marriage is in tatters and they're telling you, oh, I would do this. What value is that when you can look around your congregation and go, man, that couple has been married 50 years and they seem happy as can be and they raised a godly family and their kids are in church and all this. Go talk to that person. That's the person you're going to ask your girlfriend who has been married a year and a half. You guys might be able to commiserate. It's nice to have somebody kind of in the same place of life as you, but they also probably don't have great advice. All right, you're going to look for the success story and anything else in life. Would you ask the person whose life is a train wreck? No. So make sure you're asking people with good marriages for marriage advice. And that's so much. Titus Too the older teach the younger women to love their husbands and their children. This is what's needed is women that have the track record of loving a godly family and playing their part. They should be the ones dispensing advice. Don't go to somebody else, especially if you don't have a clue what they're the guys. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Don't go to your football fantasy league. To those buddies and commiserate about things, what I would say is pick two to three guys. Every guy needs a gang. I think women pick two to three people that you trust that you think are really in the inner circle. Jesus had his own, he had twelve, and then he had Peter, James, John. Right. He had an inner circle that were a lot closer together. I would say two to three people that you really feel you can trust. And to the older folks, we need you. We need your advice. You may have had the most sexually frustrated marriage of all time. There's still learning experiences there. You can say, this is what we did wrong and this is how or where we went awry in our sex life. Make sure you don't make this mistake. If you had a fantastic sex life, good for you, be willing to discuss that with somebody. But we really need the older people stepping up, being willing to have these conversations and not having it be so taboo that it's like, oh, we can't possibly say you have a lot of younger people that are withering on the vine because they have no idea how to have a good, healthy sex life. And the only place they feel they can go to is Google or to a Facebook group with women that are giving them terrible advice. Give them other options, please. So if you are older, please consider doing something like that. But I did mention the word taboo. Fellas, I'm going to get into this and we're going to get into our advice. [00:46:11] Speaker A: I was going to say we're like, what, 45 minutes in? I haven't even gotten the advice yet, so that's awesome. [00:46:16] Speaker C: We're getting there. [00:46:17] Speaker B: There's a lot to cover. I'm going to go through this fairly fast because this is something that, once again, we're going to give this if you have your kids listening to this, I'm going to bring up some things that are highly uncomfortable, but they are questions that I get and people do want to know. Yeah. We haven't really lived up to the. [00:46:34] Speaker C: Disclaimer yet, so why don't you make that happen? [00:46:36] Speaker A: Take it away, Joe. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Here's the part. [00:46:38] Speaker C: I'll let you talk. [00:46:39] Speaker B: Okay. We have a lot of questions about, okay, what about types of sex, things like that. We're going to go through those. So, oral sex, how do we feel about oral sex? I feel like in the Real Quick. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Real Quick, just because I think to set it up, there are people that basically would argue one position, one position only. Is all that's acceptable? Yeah, just to set that up, that's what we're discussing. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Oral sex is disgusting. It's degrading. You don't do that to somebody. It's in the Song of Solomon. I'm sorry? It's in the Song of Solomon. You read through that. There are absolute allusions to oral sex for both sides. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Chapter two, verse three and four, verse 16, in case anybody's curious. [00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very much in the text. You can look at. And go, that's not what he's talking about there. He uses illusions. Basically, he alludes to it while talking, quote unquote, about something different. It's very interesting, the style of writing, but yes, it is discussed there. So is oral sex degrading? No. I think everything, or most things I should say, we're going to get into some of the things don't do. Most things are, in my opinion, lawful in the marriage as long as the two people are happy with it. Where does this go wrong? One person really doesn't want to do it in the other forces. That's never where you come from in the sexual relationship of I really want to try it because maybe you're watching porn and you got a porn fueled fantasy. Absolutely not. This person is the person you are to cherish and you are to love. Talk about these things. Who was comfortable with what if the woman is only comfortable with one position? What I would encourage the woman to do is ask yourself why? Why am I only comfortable with the one? Is that something that you have learned going all the way back? So you talk about multiple positions. There's the standard, like the missionary position is the only position to do. Explore it within your marriage. If both are comfortable, that's okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. You're exploring and enjoying one another's bodies. Song of Solomon makes us very clear that they clearly explored certain things. They clearly were going beyond just the one position. They enjoyed one another's bodies. That's the purpose of sex within a marriage is to enjoy that. Again, you can be creative on things like that. So for both of them, for both male and female, be creative, but talk with your spouse a lot and figure out what do they like, what positions turn them on, what certain things do they want, how much is foreplay involved? Some guys, they don't want foreplay at all. They want to go right to it, but the woman really wants it. You always hear that the woman is the Crock Pot, the guy is the microwave. That's not always the case. Don't always believe stereotypes. That is a stereotype. But at the same time, that is not always the case. I have some guys that without foreplay, they have a difficult time, so don't feel weird about it. I'm looking to normalize it. Of sexual issues are normal in a. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Marriage, but also stereotypes communicate about it. To echo Jack's point, like between you two as a couple. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:49:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Because that was just on the communication thing. A friend had pointed out on that point about start from the ground up. Don't let outside expectations set this for you. You don't have to please anybody but your spouse. There is not like some standard. Nobody's watching, nobody knows if you guys are happy with this and you're communicating and it's very much clear, hey, this fulfills both of us you don't have to take it up a notch or do different. If the husband's happy, the wife's happy. If you're harboring something like, boy, I don't like this, or I wish we'd do X, Y or Z, whatever it may be, communicate. But if the communication is open and you're both satisfied by it and the amount of time you're spending doing it and all that stuff, you don't owe anybody else a more varied or whatever. You're the only two people you have to please here, right? [00:50:28] Speaker B: Last few things we'll get into just because, again, it's the taboo. But while we're here, what about masturbation as a couple? Now, some people have been given horrible advice of if you're struggling in your sex life, watch some porn together. That'll kind of heat it up, right? It'll get things real hot in the bedroom, and then that'll help you guys. Don't ever invite pornography into the bedroom. I've heard of Christian couples who have been told that by Christian therapists because. [00:50:52] Speaker A: You'Re essentially inviting other people into the bedroom with you. [00:50:55] Speaker B: That's exactly it. Get rid of that therapist. Don't ever speak to them again. Don't ever refer them again. If the words, go watch porn ever come out of a therapist mouth, you're done. Don't ever go back to them. That is beyond anything that should be allowed into the bedroom. However, what about masturbation? You have guys to masturbate alone without their wives. Things like we're getting graphic here, vibrators, things like that for women are a thing. A lot of people wonder about that and say, Is this right? Is this wrong? Now I'll ask you guys what you think about it. My personal take is do not ever do anything apart from your spouse that they don't know and that they're not okay with. So a guy masturbating, even if it's the pictures of his wife or whatever else, and the wife is unaware, I'm not okay with that because it's intended to be a bonding thing between both of them. If they both decide that that's okay, they're both aware of it. Again, I'm pretty much like there's freedom within the marriage as long as both are okay with it. So in my opinion, I think if the heart is right and if it is something where both are aware of it, I don't have as much of a problem with it. However, I do have a problem when it's a secret thing and then they find out later and go, I'm sorry. What? You've been no wonder why you don't want sex with me at night is because you've been masturbating five times a day. Even if it is to something like my pictures. Whatever it is that's, in my opinion, not okay at all. But what do you guys think about that? [00:52:15] Speaker C: In the sense we've talked about, a little bit of everything else in the marriage flows into the bedroom and the bedroom also to the marriage. Training yourself to think I don't need them for this. Part of it is very it's going to have effects elsewhere. You're going to think you don't need them in a lot of ways and so engaging in your own sexuality that way. No, they need to be a part of it. Like you said, they need to be informed. They need to be on board with whatever's happening. [00:52:40] Speaker A: Nothing to add there. I completely agree. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I would not look to make that a regular habit, to be honest with you. If that is guys away on a vacation or guys away on a work trip or whatever else and that's what you guys decide, that's different. If at all possible, have sex, connect with your spouse. Do not get used to self pleasuring, even if they're okay with it. Pushing boundaries. Last little thing we're going to get into. Some people feel the need to, again, spice it up to push boundaries, to kind of bring their poor and fueled fantasies. And guys don't always recognize it, but they find themselves really well, I really wanted to try anal. That's not normal. That's not natural. In my opinion. That's not what the body is intended to do. You wouldn't do that if it wasn't in porn. Let's just be honest. You would not do that if it was not a pornography fueled thing. So in my opinion, stay away from that. Open marriages, including other people, threesomes things like that. No, this is between a husband and a wife. Well, we both decided we're okay with it. No, that breaks unity. That breaks the bond. It invites really it invites Satan into the relationship. Absolutely. On no, in certain terms, should you ever invite somebody else in. Sex is a beautiful thing between a husband and a wife. It was perverted back in the Old Testament. It caused all sorts of issues. It's been perverted throughout history. It caused all sorts of issues. Do not ever invite somebody into the bedroom that I don't care if both are okay with it. That is not okay. That's not a call for both of you to make. That's between you and God. Somebody else is not okay. BDSM the porn esque sex. Once again, I would say you need to ask yourself, why are you pushing to spice it up? Quote unquote. Why are you trying different things? Usually it's again porn fueled. And if it's not, why would you go to that? Why would you want to inflict pain in something like that? Usually those are control based. There's a control issue there. You have some serious issues that you need to work out in therapy before you start having, in my opinion, bondage and things like that in your sex life. I would still say that stays between a husband and a wife if both are okay. But at the same time, you need to consider why you have the specific sexual desires that you do. Some of those are perverted for a reason. There's a reason we don't do it. And you'll find wanting to invite somebody in is low self esteem. Right. You want to bring somebody in because either you don't feel you can please your wife or because you don't feel she's pleasing you. That's a very selfish thing. BDSM is usually around control, as is anal, things like that. There are reasons why you're doing it, and it's not ultimately to please your spouse, but to please yourself, in my opinion. So, fellas, I don't know if there's anything else you'd add on that. [00:55:10] Speaker C: Yeah, there's one. Like role playing fornication adultery, whatever else. Even if you're it's, why are you pretending that? Well, because forbidden fruit tastes sweetest. No, I mean, reading Song of Solomon, it's not the forbidden fruit, it's you need to learn to enjoy the fruit that you've been given, like the positive. This should not be a taboo. I'm getting away with something, and there's a reason why I'm getting away with something is appealing. That's what we're trying to get out of this whole thing of, like, I'm enjoying this with somebody that God has given me, and that's the good thing to have, not man. I'm getting away with something. I don't think that's healthy in itself, either. All right, so I think we have time to get through these. We're going to come up on. [00:56:02] Speaker B: I. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Don'T want to rush through these last ones is the only thing I was thinking about. [00:56:05] Speaker B: I genuinely think if we took a little more time, we probably could get a full episode out of all four, in my opinion. And you also have something I don't want to skip on the outline, Jack, because you added this of the masculinity and femininity role fulfillment. Right. When we're fulfilling those roles either adds to or detracts from the sexual relationship. I wanted to discuss that, maybe end on that, and then we can do the advice in the next episode. [00:56:29] Speaker C: That's true, because I guess I kind of know why, but more than anything else that we talk about, that's the thing we get interest in, that people ask us about, is men being men, women being women. It's so lacking, it's so undiscussed or well, it's not undiscussed, it's just wrongly discussed. It's bad. And we haven't really touched on the sexuality side of it. And so I think making room for that as part of this is probably a good thing. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Let's wrap up with that with the discussion, and then we'll get into advice next week. I could say we do it well. [00:57:03] Speaker C: No, I'm saying get into that. [00:57:05] Speaker A: Get into that next week. Yeah. [00:57:07] Speaker C: Make that, like, the first half of the next episode, because I think there's a lot there that I don't think we can hit in five minutes. All right, now we have to come up with a conclusion on the fly, since we're not going through the rest. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Of no, I would just say we always say this, basically, but especially for purposes at the deep end, our focus, plus subscribers, we want to hear from everybody. This is something that you're going to feel awkward typing it out or whatever it is. Listen, one of the whole points of this episode has been that we need to start discussing this. We need to start making this a I don't necessarily want to say normal part of our lives because a lot of it does need to stay in the bedroom, husband and wife. But as we've hit throughout the entire episode, if you don't talk about it as a couple, you don't talk about it as a family, you don't talk about it as the church, it's only going to lead to the state that we're in, which is messed up marriages in a lot of cases, messed up sex lives. And so, yeah, we're excited to hear the feedback, the comments, maybe some questions that we've got. And we are going to cover the advice and things in the next episode because I know that's, again, a lot of the practical stuff that is very helpful for people. And so we're going to develop that a little bit more and come back next week with, hey, we don't have all the answers, but we are willing to talk about what we believe might be all the answers. And so we're going to cover that next episode. And so, yeah, comments, feedback, questions are always appreciated, guys. Anything to add to maybe preview next week or anything to add before we wrap up? [00:58:33] Speaker C: I'm going to say briefly, I turned to Song of Solomon to look at the verses that you referenced. If you're married, sit down and read through that. Oh, yeah. Every time. It's not like I spend a lot of time reading it. And so you come to it pretty infrequently. And when you do it's like that is in the I think I think it would be very helpful for Christian couples to spend time reading that together. [00:58:58] Speaker B: I told the story on Jim. I taught at a Nashville school of preaching, and I had one guy show up to the entire class. Shout out to that one guy as we were going. So shout out to Jerry. I don't know if he listens. Great guy, great brother in Christ. We had a good time just discussing these things. He had never read the book before. We get to the end. [00:59:15] Speaker A: A lot of people haven't. Man, that's really sexual. [00:59:17] Speaker B: Like, you didn't know what you were like, what the class was as he walked in. No, I just thought it'd be something so yeah, a lot of people have not read it. Jack, you're exactly right. Go read that as a couple. Enjoy that and enjoy one another. That's really what I want out of this, is enjoy your spouse. Sex is intended to be incredibly enjoyable. It's incredibly fulfilling. It's supposed to be intimate. It's supposed to be a lot of different things. And man yeah. Sit down and talk about how are we going to have the best sex life possible. It's important. Don't relegate this to something to the back of it. Well, yeah, we'll get around to that. No, it is important. It's a bonding thing. It's a unifying thing, an intimate thing. So make sure that you're talking about it. Make sure you're pushing for that. And yeah, fellas, anything else? All right. With that, we will wrap up and we will talk to you guys again next week about the same subject. We're going to get into a little more practical advice again, for premarriage young marriage, young married, married with kids and older married as well. We're going to get into the roles feminine, masculine, things like that, how that affects. And we will see you guys next week.