[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast. Your co hosts Will Harab, joined as always by Jack and Joe Wilkie. The Thing Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. I always forget to say that we are excited to be back with a non Q and a episode. We always enjoy our question and answer episodes, yet two weeks worth out of it against just some fantastic questions from our listeners. So for the last time, shout out to all you deep thinkers for your excellent questions. But we're, we're moving on to kind of our standard type episode where today we are discussing something that I firmly believe that pretty much 99.999% of people listening to this episode either have dealt with or will, will deal with at some point in their lives and probably already have. And that is conflict, conflict with other people and obviously more specifically conflict with other christians. Once again, if you are somebody who is lucky enough to have not dealt with this, or maybe you go through your life and never deal with it again, kudos to you that consider yourself blessed. Most people in the church, for some reason, it seems like specifically in the church, are going to deal with conflict in generally more than one time, more than one individual, more than one situation. And so this is an episode that we imagine is going to touch a lot of people. Uh, again, a lot of people have experience with this and so we wanted to just kind of lay out what are some biblical principles, what are some, some things that we can derive from God's word, and then maybe just some, some general best practice things that we want to talk about. Joe put together the outline for this episode. So in, uh, just a second, I'm going to turn it over to him. But once again, I would just encourage you, if you're somebody who has dealt with this before, maybe, maybe you're smack in the middle of it, you know, dealing with some kind of conflict, confrontation with a fellow brother or sister in Christ. Um, consider what the Bible has to say. And again, that's the whole point of this episode we want to get into. And so, Joe, I want to turn it over to you. I do have a question. Maybe I'll um. You know what, I'm going to save it. I've got a, another, uh, kind of on the spot question that uh, did not make it on the outline. I kind of just thought of it. But I'm going to let you kind of intro where we're headed and maybe some introductory thoughts that you have and just remind me, and I'll ask my question a little bit later on.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah, I mean, you intro this very, very well. This is very uncomfortable for a lot of people, this idea of conflict.
Nobody does it well that I know of. There have been conflicts that I've seen that I've been a part of, things like that. Rarely. Rarely does it go well. Occasionally it does, but most of the time, one or both parties go away frustrated, hurt, not feeling good about things. And I think that's something that we would love to see change, because I think conflict is important to further the depth, I suppose, the intimacy that we have for one another, love we're supposed to have for each other, and really growing closer as church members and such, which I also have a question that's not on the outline that I wanted to get your guys's thoughts on, because I did ask this. I taught this in Bible class at Jackson Temple, and you guys weren't there for Jack, I don't think you were there for the first two. This is a three part series. I'll take you there for the first two. Number two, neither of you were there for. And that's where we got into the meat of why we should even engage in conflict, why we should try to be closer when there's a lot of hurt there. But as far as it goes, we'll get to that.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Skipping your class, you're pretty hurt.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Well, I'm very, very hurt, but it's going well so far. So. No. Um.
But the question that I have that I wanted to start off with.
The Bible talks a lot about confrontation. Going to your brother, confronting your brother, restoring the one in sin. Uh, first corinthians five, that's a lot of confrontation. We're not comfortable with that. Do you think this is a distinctly american issue? Because, you see, around the world, there are other places where conflict is kind of. I don't know. It's not like they're seeking it out, per se, but they also don't avoid conflict the way that Americans do. I do think that there's type A Americans that are looking for the conflict. Most of us are not. Most of us try to be peacekeepers. The problem with that is bitterness ensues. I. Well, I'm not gonna confront so and so. It's just not even worth it. They're not even gonna listen if I do. And, you know, I just don't want the conflict and things like that. So we talk ourselves away from the conflict while it weakens the relationship between church members to the point that the. Either the church fractures or the unity is about this, you know, less than an inch deep.
That's one of the issues. So was this easier in bible times when God's asking them, you know, to do this, or it's an american issue, or do you think God fully recognized, this is going to stink for everybody, you still have to do it?
[00:04:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know enough about other cultures and stuff like that. I mean, I guess one of the things you can say is you see within families in this country, like, different approaches. And so maybe it is something that around the world, it's easier to do. I know, like, it's a common trope for the British to look at us Americans and go, you guys are really friendly and outgoing with everybody, but you don't actually have friendships where they say, like, look, we very much keep to ourselves. We're quieter. We're hard to get to know when you do. Like, we are really, really tight. And they, they view us as shallow, we view them as cold, but they have the deeper relationships we don't. And so maybe there is something to that. I don't know. I think there's this stuff going around about, like the, the Gen Z taking their parents to job interviews and stuff like that because they just can't handle the leverage of the situation, the, the, the heaviness, the weight of it and things like that. And like, that is an extreme end of it, that it's been passed on generationally, that you just can't handle conflict, you can't handle a tense situation, and you get to where it's that bad. But I think it starts back at two, three generations of, well, we can't take criticism from somebody. We can't give criticism to somebody. We can't stand up, you know, the passive aggression things comes, it comes out because we can't just say what we think.
Uh, yeah, I mean, like, I think there's a long train here.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Well, and here's what's interesting, too. I think largely, people are very, I would say they're very comfortable with confrontation here in America. As long as it's over a screen, as long as it's over a keyboard and they get to kind of hide behind their screen. I, I hate being, you know, sound like the old man that always just wants to blame things on social media. And I don't think social media is solely to blame, but, man, do people really want to, you know, be confrontational and deal with conflict online, you know, lash out at some random stranger online? You know, obviously Twitter is kind of famous for that. Or, you know, even, even among brethren in the church, you see a lot of people who have no problem. Seems like a lot of guys have a ton of time on Facebook to just go blast people and do that all behind a keyboard. But what's interesting about that is, Joe, of course, I agree that it is, it is very uncomfortable for us when it's done in person, and yet when it's done over a screen, people are a lot more confident with it. And so I do think social media for us here in America has made it to where we don't like doing face to face, in person, confrontational things because we're so used to doing it over screen, I guess would be my contribution to this question of, is this an american issue? I think the social media kind of exaggeration of it is kind of distinctly an american issue where we're very confident to do, to do, to do it over Facebook or overdose any electronic digital outlet. But when it comes to let's sit down and kind of hash this out in person over coffee, it's quite a bit more uncomfortable for people.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great, great add to this. What I was thinking about is, you got a dozen churches within like, a ten mile radius in some places in the south. So if I don't like it, I'll just go to the next church. And go to the next church to go to the next church. They didn't have that luxury back then, so they also were living in communes and living, you know, tighter with one another and grandparents and uncles and aunts, everybody was living together. I feel like that naturally pushes more conflict, um, like conflict resolution, I should say. You're going to have conflict with those people, but what are you going to do? You, you can't move to the next town. There's no such thing as hopping in your car and moving states or living across town and not talking like you live in the house with them. So you're forced to really put up with the conflict because there aren't the escape routes that there are nowadays. Now, I'm not an expert historically on this. I know that the conflict is conflict. I'm sure it's been uncomfortable for people at the same time because of our levels of escape, because of the.
I don't know. I think there's a lot that kind of plays into this is difficult in America specifically.
So the question I was going to come and will, I don't know if your question fits in here. If you want to get to it later in the outline, I'll save it for later. Okay. The question I was going to ask is, guys, this is uncomfortable. This is really difficult. This is not something that we've all experienced. I feel like wounds from. There's the church trauma. And I hate that because it's like so many people use church trauma to walk away from God. Go, I just experienced church. Like, God didn't do that to you. People are flawed. You're going to run into this. At the same time, people have been hurt. And I think when people are hurt, this causes them to look at this and go, why should I want to get closer to other people? Conflict, it deepens the relationship. We go from a shallow inch of deep, you know, inch thick, like depth to maybe the twelve foot section of the pool.
So we're getting out of the kiddie pool. That's great. But then you look at it, you go, I could drown in that. And a matter of fact, maybe I have. Maybe I was really hurt and injured from a previous congregation where I was really close to friends and I felt like I got stabbed in the back. This is what creates a struggle with conflict, is like, look, I'll go to the church. I'm going to check out. I'm not going to create these deepest relationships through kind of this push pull relationship, this conflict. We're calling each other out, things like that. I don't want any part of that. I'm just going to show up on a Sunday and not. What would you guys say to that? Like, if you had somebody that was kind of using the church trauma card, which is legit in some situations, to say, I don't want any part of conflict. I don't really want to be that deep with my brothers and sisters because it might really hurt. That ups the like. The closer you get, the more opportunity there is to have your heart broken. What would you tell that person?
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Jack, you go first because I think I am going to ask my question here on my turn. It does kind of fit in well with this section. So go for it.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So what comes to mind is Ephesians four, one three, and where he talks about walk in a worthy manner. Then he follows it up with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another and love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. Where he says, patience, tolerate one another in love, be diligent to preserve everything in there says, this is going to be hard. Like, if this were not difficult, if this was not something where you're going to get your, your heart hurt, your toes, stepped on your back stabbed, maybe you wouldn't have to tolerate, you wouldn't have to be diligent, you wouldn't have to work at it. It would just come naturally. It doesn't come naturally because people are people. And the closer you get, the more friction there is, the more, uh, the more it's not the likelihood, the more guarantee there's going to be a painful moment, the more guarantee somebody's going to hurt your feelings. And that's why he wrote those words, to say be diligent, to keep at it. And so, yeah, I mean, like, getting hurt is hard. And that first time churches, it's, it's supposed to be better. It's supposed to be different. It's not supposed to be your high school friends, it's not supposed to be even your, your human family. It's supposed to be better people. And yet you still get hurt. And so then it's like, well, man, it's supposed to be this ideal and it's not, well, it's the real world. People are still people. And we bring that to the table as well. We hurt people too. And so you have to realize when he tells you be diligent, that's because he knows you're going to have to work.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So to answer your question, Joe, like, how would you respond to somebody who kind of takes that approach if I'm just going to kind of show up and punch my card and time card, that is, and not really invest in other people because I don't want to get hurt, right?
My mind, ephesians four is a great place to go. My mind goes first, corinthians twelve, where it talks about you're all members of one another, kind of the body analogy. But he even says there in verses 24 through 26, but if our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to the part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And so to be honest, you kind of have to respond to that person of like, yeah, you don't get that option. That's not a door you can walk through. I mean, you know, if somebody says, well, you know, I'm going to be a Christian, but I'm also going to be gay, like, that's not an option that you get. That doesn't work. Similar, again, not, you know, I guess you could equate those two if you want. But you know, the person who says, yeah, I'm going to come to church, I'm going to be a part of this congregation, but I'm not really going to get involved in anybody's life. I'm going to kind of stick to myself and do my own thing. To me, that's up to the church leadership to say, no, that is not an attitude that you get to have. That is not. But of course, as we've discussed in many of episodes before in our congregations, if you have the, being a member here, you know, it's, it's a, um. If you don't have the. It's a privilege attitude and more so we're begging them to show up, want to make sure that they are, we don't want to offend them, that most leadership structures in the church are not going to do that. But to me, that, that has to be the response is, if that's going to be your attitude, you don't get to have that attitude. You don't get to, you don't get to attend here, you don't get to be a member. And, man, that sounds harsh, like you're saying you're going to kick him out.
Honestly, if it comes down to it, if that, if somebody is very adamant about that is going to be the way I'm going to operate in this congregation is I'm going to do my own thing. Not really invest anybody, never serve in any capacity classes, fellowship, whatever it is. I'm going to sit on my pew, I'm going to leave after the amen's over. I'm just here to be a partaker and a consumer man. That is not what. First Corinthians twelve, Ephesians four, number of other places we could go. That's not what that describes. And so I think you have to approach that person with, you do not get that option. Just like you don't get the option to, I'm going to be a Christian, but I'm going to consistently beat my wife, or I'm going to be a Christian, but I'm going to be gay. Like any, any scenario you come up with, you don't get that option.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: I fully agree with that. Where I would say there's maybe some not pushback, but an additional conversation to that is they're never going to actually tell you. Most of the time, I should say not never, but most of the time they're not going to tell you, like, I'm just not going to do anything. It's just a consistent habit of like, week after week, month after month, you're going, okay, they're not really doing anything. They're not engaging. Maybe they're going through a difficult time. Maybe they're. They're going through a divorce at home. We don't know these things. Right. Which is also a problem. They should be coming to the church and seeking help and bear one another's burdens and such. But at what point does somebody step in? We're going to get to that at the end of the outline, so just kind of give everybody a sneak pee. Where we're going with this, I think there are sins against you, there are sins against God. How we handle those things, first Corinthians five or Matthew 18, things like that. How do we handle sin? What I really want to leave the most time for is what do we do to confront christians who are not in sin, but who maybe are not living the good, better, best life that we've talked about? How do we begin to confront those type of issues? Will, what you're talking about here is a sin issue, but it's couched as a personal issue, like, they're not participating in the church, which is wrong. But the problem is, at what point does it become a sin? Was it the third Sunday where they turned you down from teaching or doing anything that you asked them to? Or is it like six months later? You know what I mean? That's the difficult issue, Jeff.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's obviously a heart problem at that point. Let me go and ask my question, and then, Jack, if you have a comment to add on to Joe, go right ahead. But my question just. I guess we can answer it briefly if you have a brief answer.
Why do you guys think, and maybe it's just because this is what I've grown up in, and maybe this is the case in denominations, and maybe this is the case in other non religious aspects of life. It seems like the Church of Christ specifically has a big problem with this. This seems like, and this is seriously just me thinking out loud. I'm not trying to lob accusations that, you know, anybody in particular, the church, Christ at all. I'm genuinely just kind of thinking out loud here of, like, why do you guys think it is that there are so many members of the Church of Christ wherever this. This happens, that this is kind of a big part of their life, the church trauma. And again, I know that happens other places as well. And so maybe this is just me speaking from my personal experience. That's all I've grown up and known. But, man, it seems like this, this type of conflict, this type of, um. Joe, you talked about the church splits. You know, obviously ton in the Bible belt, just that kind of like, well, we don't get along with that them, or we don't talk to them or like, it just seems like it happens a ton in the church of Christ. And I was curious if you guys had any theories as to why, or maybe if you think that it is more common in other places as well. But that was kind of what was going through my mind as we were getting this episode started is like, man, happens a lot. Why do you guys think that is?
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Jack, you want to chime in on that?
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Sorry, took you all off guard.
[00:16:56] Speaker C: No, I didn't know. That's good. Jumping in first or not. I think there's a degree of which it's not more common with us and that it's a human nature kind of thing. I think there is a degree where it is more common with us in that our hermeneutic leads toward I'm right. It's about being right. And what gets you saved is being right. And so we've got to debate things out. We got to hash people. Is that a fellowship issue? Is this. And so there's like, that. The division that comes from that stuff and confronting people. And, I mean, we've borne the brunt of that before, and many people that we know have, preachers especially, get dragged through this stuff. And so I think that part is certainly dialed up within the churches of Christ. I don't know that in general, interpersonal conflict is. But I would say one of the other things is it. It might be a reflection of church leadership. Places where you have strong, top down church leadership can regulate this stuff better, where ours is a much more democratic, much more everybody has a say kind of thing. You're just leaving that open to everybody's kind of their own, their own elder.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: A lot of individualism.
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Right. And that leads to. I just go to the next church.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. That's a really good question. It's an interesting question. Will. Like, is it. Is it worse? We do have that reputation as Jack's talking like we're. Yeah, we have a reputation for that, and I think we do need to get better at that. But it's. It's exactly what Jack said. I don't want to just echo everything he said, but, like, we don't have a governing body to be the glue. So every man for himself is kind of what should be an autonomous church where, yes, we're all the body of Christ, but we're all autonomous churches. And so we love one another within autonomy. What that creates is fractured churches where everybody is very individualistic in that. But look, I mean, you could look at community churches right and left. There's a lot of individualism in that as well. It's like, why? What does it do for me? Right? So individualism reigns across the board. That is a distinctly american problem. Going back to our issue, I think not distinctly, but let me say.
[00:19:00] Speaker C: Well, with those with, to steal, the terminology we've used before for my church reset, the church customers, they're not trying to grow closer with other people. And so you don't have the friction. And so where that is a feather in our cap and that we really don't, most of the churches of Christ don't allow for the come sit on the back pew and leave kind of thing, especially smaller churches. You got to be part of the family. You got to pitch in, and that's where the friction pops up.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Jack talking about stealing, it's his own stuff. You're not stealing.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: I might have stolen it when I wrote the book, but I guess now.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: I sold for my own wallet. Who, who took my five?
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Yeah, you see those things, somebody writes a book and they've got to, like, cite their own work. It just looks really weird. Wilson, Wilkie, you know? Yeah.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: So, I mean, this guy's really good. Probably my favorite author.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: The only, I think y'all answered that really, really well. The only thing I would add that I think is an interesting element to this is we've talked before. I think we might be having another episode on it here soon about how we don't understand or I guess we don't teach or just really, we don't get grace right in the, in the church of Christ a lot. And so I wonder how much that plays into it as well as far as like, the grace of God towards us and our sins. How much does that extend toward us? Not really giving grace to each other might be kind of a weird stretch to make there. But I certainly can see how if we don't think we're going to get a ton of grace from God and it's like, well, I'm certainly not going to extend grace to this person, whether it be a alleged doctrinal disagreement or they hurt my feelings or, like, there's not an overflowing abundance of grace sometimes in the churches of Christ. And I definitely think that could overlap with our personal relationships.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: I like your thinking on this. I really like your thing on this, because when you take it down the line, we don't have personal witnesses, right. We don't talk about our past sins, where we came from, the church that I go to. I mean, we love each other. We're very close to Jackson Temple as much as we can, I think. But I mean, as much as we can, there's more we could do. But like, I don't know if everybody's sins struggle. I don't even know the sins they came out of. I don't know what their life looked like before Christ, things like that. Well, the denominational world is big into the witness and what you realize is people are really flawed. So the drug addict that comes out of that is like he's accepted into the community, church, whatever, and it's just amazing. And everybody loves to see it. Like, you're closer in that situation to that guy because you know something about him. And you know, yeah, he's come from a rough background, but man, he's doing the best he can. I'm more willing to give that guy Grace rather than a person. You don't know their background. And so our lack of grace, I would say, and our lack of understanding of how sin actually works. Like everybody, if there's anything I've learned as a therapist, everybody is affected by sin and everybody has issues. That includes me. We need to be talking more about those. I do think there are other churches that do it better, other denominations, I should say that, do that a little bit better than we do. That creates a works based. You better get this right. And yeah, it's difficult to, you know, I think you're right, Will. I think that creates issues with conflict.
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[00:22:26] Speaker B: I wrote this outline and I don't know as I'm looking at it here and kind of considering what to cover next. The next thing on the outline we have is good communication habits to get into. I think we maybe shift that toward the end because I wanted to get into more of the biblical discussion and chew a little bit more on biblical ideas. Maybe we'll move the good communication habits toward the end because we also want to get into like, how do we create trust?
How do we really have some of these conversations? And what does this look like? And what are some principles to remember? We'll bring that in toward the end.
Then you get into the Bible talking about sins against you and how to confront brothers who have sinned against you and who you've sinned against, actually, and then sins against God and how we confront a brother like that. And I think there's some. Some interesting principles. So I'm going to take the first one here in sins against you. This is in Matthew five, of course, the sermon on the mount. And Jesus in talking about, you know, when he says in verse 23 in Matthew five, therefore, if you are presenting your offering at the altar and they remember that you're in there, remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go first, be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. What I find so intriguing about that is, first off, your brother has something against you. You've sinned against him or you've hurt him.
Guys, whose job is it to make it right in that situation? Should it not be the brother who has been wronged coming to, the brother who did the offending shouldn't be offended?
[00:23:51] Speaker A: That's what common sense would tell us. Yeah, correct.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: But isn't it interesting in this one, Jesus doesn't talk about that. He talks about if you had been the offender and you realize, maybe I offended my brother, you should go to him. I think that's very interesting from a sinning against one another point of view that I think it's both sides. It's kind of like, who gets the blame for this or who's the one that needs to initiate.
The answer is whoever feels the tug first. I would say the tug of the heartstrings of, like, I think I've offended my brother, I need to go to him, or they've offended me and I need to go make that right with them. I need to go let them know that they've offended me. The question I have for you guys is, which do you think is harder? It seems much harder to be like, you've offended me, right, for the offender to go to the offended and to call that out, it's a lot easier to sweep it under the rug. Jesus is not speaking about that here. In this particular one, Jack, do you have Luke 17 three? Because I think that opens up more of the discussion.
I don't know if you have that one open.
[00:24:49] Speaker C: Sure. Be on your guard. If your brother sins, rebuke him. And if he repents forgive him.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Okay.
I think there's a. I don't know if that's a translation that I was looking at one where it's the sins against you, I think is one of the translations that I was.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Yeah. New King James and King James and then the other, the newer ones.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: Wait, Joe, you prefer the new King James translation? There's no way.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: No, no, because Nas, I may have been looking at a different translation that has it as sins against you.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: New King James has sins against you. Yeah.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Oh, well, hey, there you go. That's the one I was like, yeah. Wow, they got one right for once. No.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but on the NASB. Yeah, that's where this is coming from, is, hey, if they've sinned against you, right, you need to go and confront your brother in that. But then we also have Matthew five, where if you've sinned against him or if you've offended him in some way, you need to go make it right. So, guys, there's a little bit of a juxtaposition here, and that's what we come back around to like. And as I've already made my comment on, how do we justify those two things specifically in sins against you. There's sins against you. There's sins against God. Like, hey, this person's sleeping with somebody else. We need to go confront them. That's easier and a lot more cut and dried, and there's a lot more scriptures we're about to get to on that. This is a difficult one because it is very much interpersonal conflict, and it seems to be there are sins against you specifically, maybe a gossip. That's something we get into in this day and age of, like, you gossiped about somebody and maybe they found out. Maybe it really hurt them and they've been offended. How do we go about making that right? Should you be the one to go and say you've offended, or should you be the one that said, I think I have offended you, or, I think I've hurt you and done something wrong against you?
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Oh, go ahead.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say just to. I'll ask your question again, just to make sure I understand. You're essentially asking, let's say I offend you, or let's say, Joe, you are offended by something that I did, and you are asking, is it more on you who were offended by me to come to me, or is it more on me when I notice, oh, man, I might have offended Joe to come to you? That's basically what you're asking, right?
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Correct. Because we're seeing both of these here. Matthew five and Luke 617. Contradictory. But yeah, I'm just curious.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, not to give a cop out answer, but I think there's a ton of responsibility on both here, specifically from the christian perspective of and this man. There's so much to get into here. I don't want to just spoil your entire outline here, Joe, but I know we talked about this in Bible class when you taught if both parties have the same objective in mind, this goes a whole lot smoother. If this, if both parties, members of a congregation, brothers in Christ, have the objective of, look, we've got disagreement about something. Maybe somebody feels wronged, but our objective, our goal is to, first of all, to resolve the conflict.
And our secondary goal is to make sure that we both come away from this understanding that we're on the same team. That goes a whole lot smoother. The problem that you get into, I think specifically in today's culture, in the church of Christ, just in general with human nature, as Jack spoke to earlier, that's not the common objective that people are working under. The, the objective that a lot of people are working under is, hey, I really want to be right, and I want the other party to know that I'm right. I want to kind of make sure that they understand that I'm the one in the right here. I have the moral high ground, and they kind of have to come crawling back to me. If that's the objective that somebody has, good luck getting the problem resolved, because that's just, that's usually, that's usually not going to work. So to answer your question, Joe, I do think there, there's a heavy responsibility on the person who was offended simply to keep the lines of communication open, to not do the pouting thing that so many, I mean, so many not to get on soapbox here. There are so many adults that can act like six year olds, that can literally act like children. When this stuff happens, I'm going to pout and, you know, kind of like give you maybe slightly dirty looks so that you can maybe get the hint that I'm offended without actually coming to you. This is ridiculous. Drives me nuts.
I think for the party that was offended, keep the, be very direct in the communication. Pull them into a side office, take them out for coffee, and just, just share. Just, just let them know, hey, I just want you to know I'd love to talk about this. I'd love to get this off my chest because it's been bothering me. You said this, you did this, whatever. And I know somebody's listening to saying, hey, that's really easier said than done. But, you know, I do think that this is, that that is the first level of responsibility. But then again, on the other hand, again, to use my example, if I really think that I offended Joe about something, I don't think I should just sit and, well, you know, if he's offended, he can come talk to me about it, you know, I'm just going to wait for him. I think that's the wrong attitude as well. Once again, if you're working, if you are working under the same objective, or I guess I should say towards the same objective of we need to get this resolved and we need to come away from this thinking and agreeing that we're on the same team, then it is incumbent upon me to go to Joe and say, hey, let's go to coffee, man. It seems like something's off. Maybe I said or did something. I honestly don't know. I'd love to hear your side of it.
That's ideal. I know that's very easy to say on a podcast when it's not happening. I get it. But to answer your question, Joe, I think that. I think that's exactly it is that it is on both parties. But if they're not operating toward, or if they're not working towards the same objective, it's going to be very, very difficult. And we do live in such a society, such a. I need to be right society, that it makes it very difficult. Long winded answer. I apologize. Jack. What are your thoughts?
[00:30:06] Speaker C: Yeah, to answer the question, if you are the offender and you're conscious of it, you, the primary responsibility is yours.
But that's the hard part, is so many times they're not conscious of it or whatever it is. And so when you're the offended, you can't. You have to avoid assuming and assigning, assigning motives or assuming that you know what they were thinking, assuming that you, oh, they know better. They know what they did, that kind of thing. Because that's what leads to what will's talking about. The I'm going to make them come. Come over here and basically beg me for forgiveness or explain, you know, explain themselves kind of as like a parent scolding a child kind of thing. Well, you're not their parent. You don't know what they were thinking. They might not have had any idea, you know, how many times that's happened of like, man, this person really hurt me. Really just can't believe they do that. And there's like, oh, I had no idea. I mean, I didn't, didn't mean to do that whatsoever. And so, yeah, you can't assume the motives or, you know, or assume, you know, you can't assign motives and say you've just got, you got it all figured out, you got to talk. And first, corinthians 13 where it talks about love, believes all things. I think that is about get it giving the benefit of the doubt. It's not being naive, but it is starting off with I believe the best of them. I believe that they would want to know, I believe they would not do that consciously. I believe they care about me. I believe they want to maintain a solid christian relationship. And so until they prove otherwise, I'm going to go on that assumption rather than, wow, that's a really bad person.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: I think the benefit of the doubt is such a key point there because if you don't give them the benefit of the doubt and they go, that's just like them, you know, they've done that the last twelve times. Like, hold on a second, that's on you. If you are keeping an account of wrongs and you go, wow, that just fits their personality. We may have all done that, you know, subconsciously. And then you realize like, wow, I don't think I look very kindly upon this person, whatever it is. That is a hard issue that we need to make right. And maybe that is when you need to go to them and go, I've been harbored this against you and I'm sorry, what you don't see in these two verses and what I wanted to come around to is like, you do not see, swallow it, sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't happen yet. Option C is the go to for most people in churches, the sins against one another of like, they're not even going to listen and, you know, it's just going to create more conflict or might break unity if I go tell them this. And so it's just not a big deal. Like, no, there are commands here and the command is go make it right with your brother. If you've offended him and you're aware, go make it right. If, if you have been offended and you're aware, go make it right. The third option of don't make it right, just sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. We don't see that in scripture for a very specific reason, which is it doesn't work. This is what creates cheap unity. Fake unity. Yeah, we stayed in the same church together, but I'm not going to trust them again. I'm not going to get close to them. I'm not going to have a family relationship with them because they wronged me and I didn't want to say anything. Well, get the guts to go say something. And in that process, I think there's ways that we're going to get to at the end of, like, there's ways to confront somebody and going, hey, you're a jerk. And you did obviously not will. You said that beautifully of taking them out to coffee. And I, you know, and where the benefit of the doubt comes in is, I don't know if you realize this, because, you know, I, I was offended by this, and you may not have intended that at all. So I don't want to know your, you know, I don't assign motives to you, but this did really hurt when you said that. Okay, that leaves open communication for I am giving them benefit out. I'm assuming they didn't where they weren't trying to hurt me, but I was still hurt nonetheless. The other thing I'll make before we get into the sins against God, um, the other comment I'll make, if you're a guy who's constantly walking on eggshells and you're the person who goes, did I offend you? Did I offend you? Die offend. That's not good either, going to your brother, because you think you've offended everybody. And you do see these members of the congregation who you have some who offend everybody and never told, and you have some who think they've offended everybody and they haven't, you probably need some therapy or something. You know what I mean? Like, you need some help. If that's the case, and you feel like you're always constantly offending everybody, by and large, these should stay to legit issues that you're very well aware of. If you're constantly wondering and kind of, you know, combing through your mind and through the last week going, did I do something wrong? That's not really the nature of this.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Can I get the flip side of that as well?
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Go for it.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: I think there's an even bigger percentage of people in the church who are perpetually offended at a lot of things. And to that, I would say you got to get over yourself. And, you know, this is one of those, like, the people who tend to get perpetually offended at things are typically not self aware enough to know that they're perpetually getting offended at things. But exactly what you're saying, Joe, I think on the flip side is you can't be the guy that's always getting offended by every single little thing. Obviously, there are always going to be things that, man, that may sting it. Maybe. Maybe it truly did offend you. You know, maybe some. Maybe you were wronged. We've all met the person that it's like, man, somebody looks at them the wrong way or says. Says something in the wrong tone and boom, instantly offended. Turns out, you know, plays the offended card. You can't do that either. That's. That's just. That's never going to be a recipe for.
For unity or for even for just getting close to somebody. I mean, goodness knows if all three of us are friends, if one of us was very, very easily offended, friendship would not go very far because that gets old to all three of us. And so I think, and I think for most people, it does as well. And so that would be the other side of that that I would add.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: And that JFK quote of, like, ask not what your country can do for you. I think there's a lot of people that ask what the church can do for them. And I'm offended that you didn't ask me about my week, and I'm offended that you didn't show up to this. And I'm offended you're not seeking the best, you're not giving the benefit of the doubt, and you're also like, are.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: You doing look for reasons to be offended, I guess, correct.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: Are you being the best member you can be, the best church, the best brother and sister in Christ you can be, because if you are, the chances are you're probably not gonna be that offended as much. You may be let down by people, but the offense may not. So we're going to get to maybe the letdown and how we navigate some of those. But, guys, let's get through this one fairly fast. This is pretty straightforward. There's been podcasts on this before. We're not breaking any new ground here, but the sins against God specifically. So those are sins against brothers. How we confront these things, we do need to confront it.
[00:36:00] Speaker C: We get any sins against God, I think there is something we left a little meat on the bone there of you confront the person, hey, this really hurt. They might say, oh, sorry, I didn't realize. And they just go right back to doing it over and over and over. Forgive 70 times seven, and turn the other cheek and things like that don't mean you just have to let them do it over and over and over, or the person who just doesn't care, isn't remorseful at all. I mean, just, well, that's your problem and not mine. I'm sorry if you took it that way kind of thing, but I'm going to keep doing it. There are those people, you're going to run into those people. And I think some people read those texts from Jesus to say, well, you got to forgive them and just go right back in there. There is a point at which it's a like, okay, well, and you see this kind of, with Paul's work, there's people that he, well, I mean, Paul and John Mark, like, all right, we're not working together. And, and so things like that, or Barnabas and the John mark split and things like that, which might not have been a great thing, but on the other hand, there's, there's going to be people in the world that you're just not.
Romans 1218, as far as it depends on you, well, that one might not depend on you. And so I think that needs to be said is sometimes there will be a point.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: That's a great point. That's a great point. There's so, I mean, you can honestly spend an entire podcast just talking about the contingencies and everything back and forth. I think that's a necessary one. So I'm glad you added that, but just.
Will, you said it. Well, this is not easy. We can say that this is, this is not easy. We're not trying to make light of this or like, well, just go do it. This is really, really difficult. It takes a lot of practice, and you may get your feelings hurt in the meantime, but this is where love for the brethren and the love for the church and the depth of, like, I do want to replicate, you know, my family, replicate God's family. Like, I want to show that on earth and how I'm living. And that's kind of the point of us wanting to go deeper. And maybe you've experienced your trauma. Maybe you don't want to call, call these things out because, like, well, it's going to create division.
How much do you long for the deeper relationships with your brothers and sisters in Christ? If you don't long for it at all, you're not going to do any of this. Um, we have to long for that. That's something that, not just because God says so, but because he knows what's best for us. He knows we need that on this life, especially as we're marching toward heaven and being like Christ. So I want to get into sins against God. Because the clear cut passage, kind of the one that rises above, is Matthew 18. So I was already in Matthew. I'll take this one. Matthew 18, 1517, and it kind of continues through where two or three are gathered in my name. We take that like, hey, if I'm up in the mountains, that's church. It's actually talking about conflict here. But if your brother sins, verse 15, go and show him his fault in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a gentile and a tax collector.
I'm not going to get into 1819. Those are a little bit more difficult to parse out. They are right in this context here. But specifically, 15 through 17 is what you're dealing with in Matthew 18 here.
Pretty straightforward here, guys, which is the very standard. So, will, I'm going to have you go to Galatians six one here in a second, unless you guys have some comments. But hey, he sends you, you go to him in private, you take two or three witnesses, then you take him before the church. Very structured breakdown. And I love that this is in scripture because it's not one of those. We have an understanding of what to do, Jack, when you're talking about somebody who's sinning over and over and over against you, I think Matthew 18 can come into that context as well, which is like, take two or three and go. I've already talked to him about this. I need witnesses there. And then when he continues to do it, you've had those two or three witnesses, you take him to the church. He continues to do this against me, but this is also for sins, I think, to God. Any thoughts on this before we get to Galatians six one, as we're just building out this, this con.
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[00:39:58] Speaker B: Okay, Will, if you can get Galatians six one.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so, Galatians six one. Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. And then verse two, of course, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. My thought that I was going to add onto Joe's passage here also relates to Galatians six one. And that is there is, you can obviously imply or insinuate from the text that there is a level of responsibility that you have when you, when you are, I guess, in the presence of, or see a brother or sister in Christ who is sinning against God. There's a level of responsibility there, too. I mean, it says there in Galatians six, if you see a man overtaking a trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one. That is, that's a command. That is an imperative of like, that is what you are supposed to do. You don't really get to have the attitude of like, well, man, that's, and Joe, you mentioned this in your class, so maybe you should be the one taking this. But like, the people who are like, well, you know, it's between them and God, and who am I to step in? And yeah, it's really going to get in their business. It's like, you know, if it's, if it's very clearly something that is a trespass, something that is very clearly in violation of God's will, then not only do you have the right, Galatians six, Matthew 18 as well, seem to imply that you have the responsibility to go to this person in the prescribed steps, of course, specifically with Matthew 18.
But yeah, I guess that would be my first thought on this is like, there is a level of responsibility that if this person is among your fellowship and your congregation and is openly trespassing, sinning against God, you don't get to just kind of look the other way. And, you know, Mandev dont really want to deal with that.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: Jack had a great article in sermon, I think, on this, which is we have to be willing to call ourselves righteous. This is one of those, you have to be willing to call yourself the spiritual brother. Well, who are you to judge me? Im the spiritual one. Galatians six. Like thats what you get.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: And Im not the one struggling with this. I think thats huge of like, right? Yeah, right.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: I mean, Im standing above the hole kind of pulling you out of the hole, or at least attempting to pull you out of the hole. That assumes you do have the upper ground, and that's going to be looked at as judgment. Who are you to judge me? Like, I'm the one that's not struggling with this, and that doesn't make me perfect. This is where we have to understand as the offender, as the person who is offending God and the sinner here, man, we want to pray for that attitude that is willing to say, you know what? I don't like being called out. But I also realize this person has my best interests and they're not coming from this place on high of I'm perfect, but they are coming from a spiritual state. It says, anyone who is for those who are spiritual, restore that man. Uh, there are spiritual people in there, those that are not acting spiritual. We have to get used to saying that in the church before we can really start fulfilling this. Jack.
[00:42:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
That is for the person who is the person being confronted so many times, that is a really hard thing to accept the correction, except the other person is the more spiritual one is the person, and they might run to the, you can't judge me or who are you. You've got your own sins. I mean, that, that kind of stuff that they're going to throw out. And so, yeah, I.
The humility, because humility is a so many times, a function of maturity. Maturity is realizing how many times I've gotten it wrong. And boy, I'll take all the help I can get. It's that weak younger brother, you know, weaker in the faith, immature in the faith that doesn't want to be corrected, that they might not receive that well. And so there's a bit of a paradox here of the person that needs the correction most is the least positioned to hear the correction.
But that doesn't mean you don't do it. I mean, that's. That's why we're given these scriptures, is go ahead and tell them to do it.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: So well, we'll read first Thessalonians 514. Because I think that dovetails perfectly with what Jack's talking about.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: First Thessalonians 514. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the faint hearted, uphold the weak, and be patient with all.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: I think that's right in line, Jack, with what you're talking about. Be patient with everybody. Yes, my nas has admonished the unruly, encouraged the faint hearted, help the weak. You are going to have the weaker brothers. You are there to help them. You're to encourage them. You're also to admonish them. But be patient in doing it because, yeah, there's going to be people that it's not that you're going to have kid gloves per se. In terms of, well, I'm not going to call them out with sin. There's a difference between not calling them out and recognizing they are not strong enough in the faith to fully understand what's at stake here. You have a guy, let's take for instance, somebody who is, I work with people who don't know that watching porn is wrong. They come into Christ, you find out that they're watching porn. Now, you could bring down the hammer, man, like, hey, what's wrong with you? How could you do this? That's a sin against God. Or you can recognize, okay, they're new to the faith. They may not recognize it. Benefit of the doubt, right? We're going to them even. This is a sin against goddess. Even though it is, we're still going with this patience and we're understanding that maybe they don't have all the answers. Now, if he does and he goes, I don't really care. Now we're talking about elders. We're talking about the other things. And, and, uh, you know, we get into the matthew 18. We also get into one corinthians five, um, which we all know, and I'm going to read that for sake of time. We all know this is the, uh, the man caught in sin with sleeping with his father's wife.
Paul basically says, have nothing to do with them. Cut them out. This is the church discipline section that seems very harsh to people, but we are to avoid them. So you have, on the one hand, first thessalonians 514, be patient with everyone. And then you have the other one. It's like one corinthians five, which is you need to get serious with this guy and stop being patient with him, stop loving him through this. But recognize the loving thing to do in this situation is to push him out and recognize he has no part of Christ right now so as to bring him back in. We know from two corinthians actually that works in that situation. But I think the avoidance was the love in that moment that was them doing basically living out first Thessalonians 514. But it looks different because with the new Christian as Jacks, talking about calling that sin out and confronting somebody is going to look a lot different than a guy who is, you know, much older. And we see this also, Jack, I think you got this and ill let you guys talk. But in first Timothy five, regarding elders, there is a hierarchy as to how you approach certain people and certain levels of Christians, basically.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: Well, let me ask very quickly, Jack. I guess before you read the first Timothy passages, Joe. So I have an answer to this, but I guess I'll ask you since, yeah, this is your outline. I definitely think you probably have some good thoughts here. What do you think is a good indicator, or I guess, mark of distinction between, okay, be patient with all. Be patient with this person. As opposed to first corinthians five.
There's an argument to be made in that scripture or in that chapter that he's saying, don't serve them the Lord's supper, either. Get into that another time, but essentially don't eat with him, don't do any of that stuff like detach from him. That versus be patient. What, in your opinion, would be kind of the indication of like, okay, here's the line. They crossed into the first Corinthians five territory.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: I think you have to look at the fruits. Are they exhibiting the fruit of the spirit in other ways? Are they, are they trying? I mean, is the guy showing up to Bible class and he's learning and he's asking questions and he's really trying to grow and he's still struggling with sin? But there's a Romans seven, hey, wretched man that I am, right. We understand that there's still going to be some sin struggles from time to time, but, man, he's trying. He's being led by the spirit doing his best, versus a guy who is, I mean, thumb and his nose at everybody seemingly, and just doing what he wants. And I think there's a massive difference in that. The other thing is, he's not going to be exhibiting a whole lot of fruit of the spirit when he's sleeping with his father's wife, versus the guy who is new to Christ, but also really trying. Then you get into the question, like, what's new? Okay, he's been a Christian for five years. Should he know better? Well, if he's been in modern Bible classes, maybe he doesn't know better. We don't call a lot of these things out. Maybe the preaching has been weak. So, yeah, I mean, that's a valid question. I think it does vary by, like, on a case by case basis, but by and large, what are the fruits of their life? Are they really trying to get things right, or have they just completely given up on, I'm just going to do what I'm going to do? I think there's a big difference between those, usually in the way that they interact with other people, the way they interact with church, the way that they're spiritual, their prayer life, it comes out in other ways. Like when a guy is deep in sin, it usually comes out in other ways. We just don't want to call it out, in my opinion. But I'd be curious to know your answer, Jack, if you have an answer on that, too.
[00:48:31] Speaker C: I think that's why when we had Galatians six, you who are spiritual is it's people who've been around the block a few times and they know somebody who's open and they know somebody who's just stringing you along, really playing a game, but not actually, or the person who, as you say, is just actively saying, no, don't care. And yeah, you got to do what you got to do. I mean, there's, there's a time and a place to draw a very hard line there.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have a lot to add. My answer would be very similar, I think. I think you can pretty clearly see when somebody is actively trying to get out of the sin, the fruits. I love that point, Joe, versus somebody who is just kind of. Just kind of not like. I think that's pretty easy thing to say so. Or easy thing to see, I should say so. Jack, do you want to get into the first Timothy five passages?
[00:49:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Verses one and two do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father to the younger men as brothers, the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters in all purity. And then later on in verses 19, in 20, he says, do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
So older men, and then kind of cascading from there the different people that Timothy was going to encounter in the church. I think that's very useful material. And then elders, a little bit of a separate distinction there. So we'll get into the first. And then, I mean, the elders doesn't take much comment. It's just like, hey, they're, they're in such a high role that, a, you better know what you're talking about if you're going to go after them. B, if they are in sin, make it very clear to everybody how big of a deal this is, for obvious reasons. But for the other one, as far as the different ages and genders and all that in the church, do you guys have anything to add or commentary on that?
[00:50:17] Speaker B: It's just, I think that there's, there's a difference in how you approach certain people. And I think there's a lot of, we can be accused of this, of these young guns coming in and just hot headed, and they're going to tell everybody what to do. And we got to guard against that some. And so there is a way of, when there's confrontation, when you're confronting somebody or when you're rebuking somebody, like, hey, don't sharply rebuke the older guy. You want to appeal to him in these ways. I think the reason why I put this on the outline, like, it's a general, just a general feeling that you have for your brothers and sisters in Christ where, like, you're not going out of your way to rebuke them, even if they are in sin. And whether this is a sin or not, you can look at, you know, the beginning of chapter four, and some guys believe in crazy things and, and whatnot, getting into it. And so you could say that's the case. Maybe it's not a sin either way. The way we approach one another ought to be done in purity, ought to be done in love. It ought to be done in a way that, yeah, we take the seriousness and the holiness of God very seriously. The seriousness of sin, I should say, in the holiness of God very seriously. At the same time, we want to be aware of how we are confronting different people at different times in different ways. And the point of the elders is like, yeah, Nathan rebuked the snot out of David, and he had every right to do so because David is. He's king, man. You can't do this. You have to lead the people. It's the same as the elders. You have to be the leaders. You are held to a different standard. So confrontation does change based on the person's position in the church, based on how long they've been in the church, based on age, all of those things. So it's one of those wise as serpent, innocent as does. I think we need to go in with benefit of the doubt, loving one another, but also being willing to, you know, we want to be willing to call each other out, especially on sin, but doing it in a way that's God honoring. And it's going to actually preserve the relationship to the best of their relationship with God and your relationship with them to the best of your ability.
Will, any thoughts on it?
[00:52:09] Speaker A: No, because we had a lot more to get to. I don't. I don't want to bog us down here.
You said it very well. Obviously, I do think it changes depending on the position.
But again, we got some good stuff here. So I'm going to kind of steamroll us into the next section here. Joe, you got a very interesting question on here, and this is one that kind of falls somewhere in between the two areas that we've discussed so far. So option one, sins against your, you know, sins against you, offends you, wrongs you versus sins against God. This next area, you could argue, falls into the second category of sins against God, but also not really. So the question Joe has is how do we confront christians on non sin issues, but maybe something that isn't best. So there are a few examples that come to mind here, Joe. The first one you got is homeschooling. Obviously cannot say that to not homeschool is a sin. But all three of us have come out very, very pro homeschooling, very anti public schooling. More and more by the day, more news stories come out. It's just, it's just terrible. Don't send your kids public school. But that'd be one. That'd be one example. Joe, you've also got on here rated r movies. I would say there are certainly some rated r movies out there where if you watch it, that is a sin against goddess. But all of them. What, is that the case with all of them? Maybe there's some that, you know, but again, this, this falls in the category of is it something that's best? And if you can't say it's sin, do you even confront somebody about it or not? Another touchy one is modesty. Is, is somebody's clothing, is a female's clothing. Obviously, man's clothing as well would apply, but obviously modesty, typically referring to females. And again, once again, I think there are areas where modesty can definitely tread into sin against God territory, maybe other areas where it can't. And so all I'm doing is convoluting this, but I think this is a very convoluted type question. There's a very complex question that Joe's got on here, so I'm going to do him the honors of letting him go first on this answer.
How do we confront, unless, Jack, unless you'd like to go first. You have at it. If you'd like, how do we confront christians on these issues? This is a great question because, man, is this ever pressing. Obviously, there are things like this all the time. Those are just three examples that I gave. I'm sure there's more that we could come up with if we had the time. How do we do that? How do we confront somebody on this?
[00:54:32] Speaker B: Good luck. All right, we'll talk to you guys next week. And it is really difficult the way, actually, I was talking to Jack about this a couple weeks back in prepping for this class of, you know, just getting his thoughts on this, and he made a really valuable point. So I wish Jack would go first.
[00:54:46] Speaker C: But he's leading, so I'm glad you.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: There you go. It did stick with me. You want to create a culture in the church where these things aren't allowed, kind of what they're frowned upon. So, for instance, in my family, there are certain things that we, you know, if any of us were to do anything, like watch a rated r movie, you know, Wolf of Wall street or something like that, or, we don't drink in our family. If you were to drink everybody be like, what are you doing? We don't. We don't do that around here. We don't drink alcohol. We don't. We don't.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: If, like, word got out, you'd be getting a few calls from your family, is what you're saying.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. To my four siblings and to my parents, if word got out that I was doing these things, that's not what we do here. There's a culture within the Wilkie family to these things, and that's not, like, touting us. Now, I'm sure there's some things that we'd allow that other people wouldn't like. That's a culture that you create in a family, though, as to. That's not what we do here. This is where elders, man, they're more and more important. Like, the longer you go, the more you realize elders are like the cream of the crop here. Like, they have to show up and assert themselves in this way because they have to create a culture where it's really weird for somebody to step out of line in these ways. What are you, what are you doing? I mean, that's not what we do. And so you can call each other. You can lean on that culture a little bit. My family doesn't have to come to me and go, Joe, it's, you are in sin for. Well, Wolf of Wall Street, I think you would be. But, you know, like, you're in sin for watching X y Z rated r movie.
Maybe they can't say that, but they can be like, what are you doing? Why are you watching it? You know that you shouldn't be watching something like that. And it's like, yeah, that's true. So we help each other by creating that culture. It's difficult to do this without elders because who's going to take the baton? Like, I think men's and men groups, you know, in the men's meetings, can do a little bit of this, but you want to create that within a congregation where the confrontation on these things, it's less of a person to person. You really need to do this. And it's more like, that's not what we do here. For instance, the homeschooling. Everybody at our congregation homeschools. And people are going to think that's crazy of like, you'd really put homeschooling on the list. Yeah, I would. Uh, like, sending your kids to public schools is almost sending them off to. It is sending them off to seizure. Right. And so it's a pretty big deal. I'm not saying you're sinning if you're doing it, but it's a really bad thing to do. We have that at our congregation where it's kind of like, it would be weird, you would be standing out if you sent a public school. And so there is a little bit of the societal pressure that I think God has kind of built into this, in my opinion. I don't think that's a bad thing in every way.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Throw another one on their dating practices. You know, you see, you know, parents that allow their. Their very young teenagers to go.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: 14 year old girl. Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:27] Speaker A: To go by themselves, do all this stuff by themselves. It's like, can you call that a sin? Not necessarily. But should you maybe go to them and say, hey, that's not a great idea. I think you're perfectly within your right to do that. There's a lot of things, again, as I'm just kind of sitting here thinking, you know, you see a family where the wife very clearly runs the household, that might actually be a sin, but you know what I mean? Like, stuff like that where it's like, the line's a little bit gray, it's not very black and white. That's where this falls into it. And I think that's the category I think stuff like that falls into. And it is difficult.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: Appealing to an elder's authority in this situation is key, because if I go to this, like, who are you? Like, no, thanks. If an elder goes to you, he does have the authority, I think, to enter into your life. And we see this in really what they're trying to do and what, what Timothy is building them to do is to take an active role in the person's life. The good, better, best approach that is mainly provided by an elder who has been given the God given role and who has been ordained by God in that way to actually go do that. Whereas for me, yeah, I'm a preacher, I'm a minister of the congregation, but I'm young and what do you know? And all this type of stuff, like, it's different when there's gravitas to it that an elder brings.
[00:58:33] Speaker A: Real quick, Jack, we'll get you in here, I promise.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: This is the least Jack has talked, I think, ever. I was just going to say very quickly the one thing I would say.
Yes, Joe, I agree. Take it to your elders. Elders authority.
You don't necessarily just want to, like, as soon as you see something that's wrong, okay, go to the elder. Run of the elder. You know, go, hey, can you take care of this? Hey, can you please talk to them? Hey, can you handle this? If you do have a culture, especially the family, more of the family dynamic, deeper unity, then it should be a little bit easier to once again go to coffee, go out to eat or whatever with, with the mom of the daughter who had a, you know, who went to prom, for instance, you know, there's another one, and just have a conversation about it and just share, like, hey, I don't think that's best. And here, here's my line of reasoning once again. You're in a congregation without that, with very shallow unity. That's not going to work. But hopefully you have, you have relationships with these types of people where you are able to do those things, um, able to have those conversations from that foundation of love and that foundation of, hey, we talk about a lot of things. We care about each other. We have this unity. Let's talk about this. Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:59:40] Speaker C: Yeah, so to flesh out the, the elders role thing a little bit, I think, and I make this point a lot because I think it's really important that christians grasp this, that all authority structures that God placed into the world are operate essentially the same just in their different realms, whether government, whether parents, whether elders, things like that.
And it's that they have things that they require, things that they expect, things that they encourage. And so, as Joe saying, like, within the family thing, certain things growing up were required, other things were expected of, like, okay, maybe it's not, you're not breaking a law. You're not, like, maybe not getting disciplined, but you'd better do it. And then encouraged is, well, we think this is the best way to do it. If you don't, you know, bummer, but okay, the same thing with churches. Like, it is required that you attend. It is required that you not cheat on your spouse. It's required that you, you know, I mean, just certain things, like obvious sins, but you have to have an expected and encouraged. And I think the one of the things you have to realize is you're going to lose people this way when you expect or encourage things that they don't like, you know, and it's okay for one church to be like, you know what? We're going to be real big on homeschooling or not going to prom or, or certain things, and some people are going to go. It's either you're going to be uncomfortable in this church because you're going to hear that a lot, but you can stay. This is an encouraged kind of thing. But no, or expected even. But we're not going to, like, draw you up on church discipline. Well, they'll probably move on or they'll conform. They'll comply. They'll start to take the shape of everybody else around them.
What churches do is they hold only to the required. You can't bind that. You've got to just do commandments only. And so then you end up with shallow unity because there is no culture. There's no culture. There's no encouraged behaviors or anything like that. And it's good for the numbers, it's bad for unity, it's bad for closeness, it's bad for developing the kind of stuff we've been talking about this whole episode. And so, yeah, you have to, number one, have an eldership that's willing to require, expect, and encourage. And you've got to have a membership that appreciates that and tolerates and finds in the same way a kid does within the family, like, finds their way to operate within the parents disciplinary structure. That's what the members have to do in the same way citizens of a country do of, okay, well, I have to do this, and I probably should do this, and it's a good thing if I do the other thing.
Yeah, you need members who are operating that same way, too.
[01:02:09] Speaker B: The struggle you have is there are going to be inevitably people that go, yeah, I've seen the confrontational elder who confronts everybody and, you know, lords it over them, and that's not good. Yeah, nitpick and things like that. That's not good. As a matter of fact, I think that's an elder that probably should be rebuked in the presence of all if this has happened consistently with a lot of people. So, yeah, there are horror stories, I'm sure, of elders who are lording it over their members, nitpicking, whatever you want to say. By and large, this is why we push for elders, though, to be the spiritual ones who are restoring, like Galatians six, they should be the spiritual ones, restoring the other ones in sin and bringing them back to the fold, you know, going after them if need be.
Because otherwise, like, they have to be the. Maybe the preeminent.
I don't want to say it like, they have to be the ones most comfortable with confrontation. And that means they have to be really good with words. That means they have to actually fulfill the requirements of first Timothy three, which we breeze through and go, well, they're the husband of one wife and they got some, they got good kids. Let's take them in there. Like, no, no, no, there's a reason these are here. And part of this is they have to be able to communicate the message and be able to confront without being bombastic, without being over the top, without being a jerk, without being pugnacious as it talks about. Right? Like, it's for these reasons, because when you go to confront somebody in an or go to set the culture and have these expectations where you're going to talk to people, that is conflict, that's confrontation, that's not comfortable. They have to be more ready for that than anything on our side. For those that aren't elders, we have to be people who are willing and ready to receive correction and to have that conflict as well. So much of this, I could go into whole therapy side of this, which were out of time, so we're not going to.
But there's a therapy element of, I think there's attachment and things like that, of I don't want to be left. I don't want to be rejected. I don't want to be abandoned. Yeah, sometimes people need to work through those things first. But by and large, God's not looking to abandon or reject you. And it's God we're conforming to. It's God's church, him that we are sticking around for, not the people we are. We are flawed and sinful people from time to time. But guys, we didn't get into some of the other things. We did talk kind of as we went about some of the communication. So we're going to leave some things for the deep end I want to go into, because I had left this, we kind of answered it. Why don't we have open communication in the church?
I think the biggest one is a lack of trust. And so on the deep end, I want to leave room for. How do we build trust as a church? This is one of the biggest issues of having open communication. I don't trust that person.
So benefit of the doubt, obviously, is out the window. But there's a lot of other things that go along with no trust. The bouncing from church to church.
You just don't build trust with people. So we want to discuss ways to create that. But anything else, guys, before I look.
[01:04:42] Speaker A: To wrap up, let us know your thoughts, your comments, your questions. As always, this is, once again, I would imagine every single listener this has affected. And so I'm sure you got thoughts on it. We'd love to hear them. We'd love to know.
[01:04:56] Speaker B: Absolutely. All right. Well, thanks for listening, and we will talk to you guys next week.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Close.
