Answering Ex-Church of Christ Critiques

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign podcast presented by Focus Press. I am your co host Joe Wilkie, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Harab. And today, fellas, we have a very interesting, I always say interesting, but very intriguing episode as it pertains to some critiques, some critiques of the Church of Christ. We are delving deep into Reddit, a Reddit forum on XCOC members. Those that it does run the gamut from international Church Christ to regular Church Christ to liberal and conservative churches of Christ. But we're getting into that. We're going to get into some other critiques. Command example, necessary Infants. We're going to go into some things that I think are legitimate critiques, some that I think are straight up bitter. We're going to get into some very interesting stuff today. So fellas, any introductory thoughts as we jump into it? There's. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Go ahead, Jack, you want to. There's been a lot of studies and, you know, research that's been done on why people leave the church, specifically the Church of Christ. And you know, with that being where we, we grew up, obviously we, we take a lot of interest in that. We want, we really want to kind of examine why, why is that? What, what are, what are people's reasons for it. Of course, the word deconstruction has kind of grown in popularity. We've done episodes on that previously and things like that. But the one thing that I wanted to say as we kind of get this episode started is I don't want to speak for you guys. I know based on some of the things on our list, I agree with some of these critiques. That does not mean that I am, you know, bashing the Church of Christ or, you know, saying that, oh yeah, like I'm rubbing elbows with the, with the people who have deconstructed and oh yeah, those Church of Christ people are awful. Like, to me, I can agree with a critique and still be a huge proponent of whatever is being critiquing. I'm a big fan of the NBA. I think there are very legitimate critiques of the NBA that I agree with. Same thing with, you know, with athletes, you know, you know, whatever, to fill in the blank. Like, there are certain critique. I think you can agree with a critique and then, you know, it not be so black and white is like, oh, you agree with that? Well, then you must be very anti. Definitely not. Like, again, I would imagine you guys echo that. I just wanted to kind of get that out there of like, I'm probably going to come out and say for some of These things. Yeah, Legitimate gripe there, but that's where we want to really have hopefully a constructive conversation about what can we do to kind of improve. Because regardless of what we're going to talk about today, it is very, very clear the Church of Christ has a reputation that other denominations do not have in a negative way. I wanted to talk about that a little bit more specifically here in a bit. But, Jack, what introductory thoughts do you have? [00:02:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with what you say there. The other side of it is I feel bad for some of the people, you know, reading their things. There's a lot of bitterness. There's a lot of even sadness, you know, sadness about kind of what they walked away from, but still resolute in their decision. There's going to be some frustration, I think, from us reading some of these takes, and some of them get a little ridiculous. Some of them are a little over the top. We love these people. We want them to come back around. Kind of what got me onto this is finding out they, specifically the Reddit forum, they follow, they keep tabs on Focus Press, some of the people there. And so I imagine this will reach some of their ears. This might even make their page. We hope you guys love Jesus, want to follow the truth, want to be right with him. And that's. That's the main thing. There's going to be some of this where it's going to come off, maybe like, man, these guys are really slamming people. That's not the point to slam people. We do disagree very strongly and we're gonna have some strong takes on that. But more than I think it's something sad thing. [00:03:52] Speaker B: And I will say, I think if something is blatantly incorrect and ignorant, it does need to be slammed. Like, and we're not. We're gonna try our best not to be snarky or anything like that, but I do think that if stuff needs to be called out, we are going. [00:04:02] Speaker C: To call it out about the idea, not. Not the person. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Correct? [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:08] Speaker A: All right, fellas. Well, I think, Jack, you're going to be screen sharing, correct? [00:04:11] Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of different stuff that if you're watching on video, there's going to be a little bit more for you. We're going to read these things. So it's not that much more if you're listening on the podcast app, but either way, you'll get the idea. So this was a. I guess this is a Blue sky post that was shared there by a therapist. So we know how dangerous those can be, right, Joe? [00:04:33] Speaker A: Gotta watch out for those. Well, if they're in blue sky, then yes, they are. [00:04:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Double dose. All right. She said if your former church taught that their religious beliefs were right while all others were wrong, then you weren't receiving spiritual guidance. You were experiencing indoctrination. Somebody else go ahead on it first on this one, because I, I think there's. [00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead, go for it, Joe. And then I'll, I'll go next. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. Yeah, we are, we are indoctrinating people. Sure. It's whatever word you want to use. I mean, somebody's going to be indoctrinated. Somebody's going to indoctrinate my kids. Somebody's going to indoctrinate. The world is indoctrinating us if we're not careful. So if we want to use indoctrination as this four letter word, this very scary word, okay. Everybody is being indoctrinated by one thing or the other. This is their way of coming out. It's our way of coming out and saying, yeah, there's objective truth and there are those that, if you are following objective truth, then that would necessitate that everybody who doesn't follow objective truth is wrong. That doesn't mean we are the bearers of, like, everything we say goes and everything we say is absolutely perfect. But we are trying, we're trying to get things right. There are clearly those that are trying to get things wrong. And what I would love to ask Megan, this person is, is there a line that she's willing to draw? If your church teaches that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through him. Can we then say that Buddhists are wrong? Can we then say that Islam, that Muslims are wrong, that the Quran is wrong? Are we allowed to say that or are we just talking denominations? Where does she draw the line on what's right and what's wrong? And where does she get her authority to do so? Because if her authority is on the Bible, well, then, yeah, you can draw a pretty definite line. And if you want to call that indoctrination, then call it whatever you want. That's us trying to stand on scripture. So I think this one's a pretty easily, um. Yeah, Easily done away with. [00:06:24] Speaker B: This is one of those where, as you said, Joe, the, the word indoctrination is used kind of as a, you know, buzzword tactic. Yeah, pejorative. What's so frustrating about this one for me is it's almost like people don't, like they don't Log logic. Understand that if one religious belief says this and a different religious belief says this and those two things contradict, they both can't be right. That is, that is just basic, you know, philosophy, like that's how things work, is that if one thing is right and something else contradicts it, they both can't be right. So one is right and one is wrong. And so that's, to me, kind of the first half of that that I wanted to address is like, taught that, you know, if your former church taught that their religious beliefs were right while others were wrong, isn't that kind of inherent? And like, you know, the way that what we believe as Christians is contradictory to what Muslims believe, it is contradictory to what, you know, Buddhist belief. And maybe she was talking more so, you know, in, in the Christendom, you know, different denominations, you know, etc. But, you know, just for the word religious there, that was my first thought, is, yeah, that's the way life works. If one thing is right and something else contradicts it and they both can't be right. But then the second aspect of that, you were, you weren't receiving spiritual events. You were experiencing indoctrination. I would agree with Joe. Like, if we believe the truth, then what are we probably going to try to do to those who are close to us and those who are, you know, in our circle? Teach them the truth. And you can call that indoctrination. But if you really believe that that is, you know, the best thing for them, if you really believe that, that that is once again true. Yeah, you're going to tell them about it. And again, like, to me, it's just logical. It's just common sense. And I'm not trying to, to, you know, say that this person is not smart or whatever it is, but like, we, I, I feel like it's such a utopian idea that we can all just live in this world where you have your beliefs and I have mine and they contradict. But hey, we'll both be right. That is just not the way life works. And that's kind of what this post screams. Jack, what thoughts do you have? [00:08:27] Speaker C: That's the individualism coming through of we all actually can have our own set of truth, my truth, things like that. And it's ideas like this that led to, what was it like, 50% of millennials think that evangelism is morally wrong because you're going and telling somebody that their beliefs are wrong. And so, I mean, obviously Jesus John 14:6, that I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father, but through me. That's pretty exclusive. That's pretty one way only. But you guys keyed in on indoctrination and that's right. But also in there, that kind of jumps out to me is you weren't receiving spiritual guidance. That goes to the individualism thing. Like a church is there to spiritually guide you. Like, well, yeah, they are, but they're also there to teach you the truth. They're there to put you on the right path, to bring you closer to God. And truth is required to bring you closer to God. And yeah, yes, yes, there are varying degrees of this. I thought Lagarde Smith's book on circles of fellowship did a good job of saying, like, look, we have almost basically nothing in common with the atheists. We have a little bit in common with monotheists like Islam and things like that. We've got more in common with the denominational world. And then the most in common, like the, you know, we're going to be able to see eye to eye and be on the same team with those, you know, within our doctrinal fellowship. For sure. Yes, there's, there's going to be varying degrees of this. But every church that's worth its salt is going to say we're right and other people are wrong about certain things. [00:09:55] Speaker A: The one thing I'll say is, you know, keying in on the word guidance, then we can move on. But you weren't receiving spiritual guidance. Doesn't guidance necessitate that you tell somebody where to go? And doesn't that necessitate that you are essentially telling them what's right and what's wrong? [00:10:08] Speaker B: How can you guide where to go and then where not to go? [00:10:10] Speaker C: Not in the individualist world. It's, well, how do you like this? This work for you? This. You feel good about this? It's all feelings. So it's a good point. Totally dictated by them. All right, moving on. This is actually a spoof of one that's gone around. You might have seen why 75% left the church from 18 to 29. And it's things like family meal time and spiritual mentors and regular church attendance is what's usually on this thing. This person photoshopped it to come back with why people 75% left the church was needed. Inferences were drawn from inferences. So kind of a circular reasoning view of the Bible. We'll talk more about that later. So we'll kind of pass over on that one. Cover up for creepers. They say do not be hasty and laying on of hand unless it's the youth minister. 3. Fear based faith only holds up until you start reading literally anything. We'll talk about fear based faith a little bit later as well. Saw women run every ministry, but just not the microphone. And found more grace and honesty at the Waffle House. I really want to key in on the second and fifth ones there because we are going to get to some of those others. The church covering up for creepers of if sexual abuse happened and they looked the other way or they let it continue happening. Yeah, yeah, that's an issue. I, I think one of the principles for this whole episode is there's no good reason to leave the Lord. Emotional things, bad things that have happened, do not change doctrine and things like that. But on the other hand, yeah, where, where these things do happen and they do happen, it's a really big problem. [00:11:43] Speaker A: The church has a bad, I'm sorry to say, like I've heard a lot of these stories, not just from clients but from other preachers, from other people in the brotherhood where something very shady was happening. And either people knew about it and did nothing or they shuffled the guy out of the church but didn't put him behind bars when he should have been. They didn't turn him over to the authorities. They did not handle this appropriately. Like it seems like people kind of check their brains at the door when it comes to some of these things. Though I will say I do think we're getting better at this. Hopefully getting better at this as people are coming a little bit more into consciousness about, hey, this is really not okay. Here's how we should be handling these situations. Here's when to call the police, things along those lines. But yeah, I mean I could understand why people might be really, really hurt. But people are flawed. People make mistakes. This is not God saying to cover up for the creepers. God would, I mean Old Testament God had those people stoned. So clearly God's not in favor of these people doing this to children. It's abhorrent that there are people that have taken this lightly and that do cover up. But once again, those are really flawed people with really flawed thinking. That doesn't mean that God did it doesn't mean that all religion is bad, that the church, Christ is bad or anything else. It means that some people were not thinking when it came to some of these things and they were honestly, they were afraid of lawsuits. They were afraid of a lot of things that they should not have been afraid of. So yeah, I Think number two does have some merit. But as you said, Jack, I don't think it's the reason to, to leave the faith, to leave God, because God certainly wouldn't be covering up for those people. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't, I don't have much disagreement there on number two. That's, you know, inexcusable. And that's just, you know, very, very sad and unfortunate that that is a lot of people's experience. And I do pray that that, that does not completely turn them off from the church forever, regardless of, you know, the fact that, you know, unfortunately for a lot of people, it was leadership positions in the church. And the youth minister point is on there. And that's not stereotyping. That is generally the way that goes. If, like, if there's a scandal, a lot of times it is the youth minister. That's so just very sad. I'll talk about the fifth one since you guys kind of covered the second one there. The found more grace and honesty at the Waffle House. Several thoughts there. One, you can kind of read the snark in that, of course. Secondly, not sure what Waffle Houses they're going to like. Yeah, that's not really been my experience, but I get what they're trying to go for. And that is the point that a lot of people within the church are not. Don't. Are. We're not willing to show much grace and are not very honest with kind of the way that they live their lives. I think it's very interesting that the word hypocrite is not anywhere on here because that's generally the word that I hear the most when this type of conversation comes up about the way that people in the church act is, oh, they're a bunch of hypocrites and that kind of thing. But I think this number five kind of speaks to that. And yeah, this is where it is very sad to me. And I can't remember who first made this point. I think I heard my dad say it quite a few times that, you know, Christians should be the most joyful people on the planet. And in many cases, they're just not, which is an indictment. There's really no other way to put it. When you walk into a church building and you've got. You don't see smile. And in generalizing, there's a lot of congregations that, you know, are not like this. I like to think our congregation, you know, is not this way at all. But you would think, man, that we would be the most joyful people. You would think that we would be the most gracious people on the planet. You would think that we'd be the most honest people on the planet. And a lot of congregations just aren't. And I. I don't really have a. A strong take other than how unfortunate that is. And, you know, I want to really applaud the people that understand just how blessed we are and use it, you know, to try to reach others with the grace and honesty. So, yeah, unfortunately, some legitimate things on there, I would say. Any thoughts on number five from either one of y' all? [00:15:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, there's no standard at Waffle House, so of course you can come in and be like, yeah, I'm an addict. Yeah, I'm struggling with these things. With a church, people feel the pull to be. To wear the mask and to not be honest or they feel like they're not going to get grace. And it's not great if somebody can't get grace. If you are really struggling and church is a place, you feel like you can't say that that should be the place you should be able to say it. On the other hand, there should be a sense of, I don't want to be like this. I, you know, like, I. I want to outgrow this. And so there's. There's give and take. And some churches are too hard on it to where people feel like they can't say anything. That's why porn addiction gets driven so far, you know, deep into people's, you know, darkest secrets. Yeah, that's. That's not good. You know, things like that. And churches need to be a place where there is a clear avenue for. If you're struggling with this, here's what you do about it. As far as the honesty that's kind of on ourselves like that. You do be open about that and somebody takes it wrong. Yeah, that's hard. That's going to make it harder to be honest the next time. Don't put on the mask. Don't be the person who's always trying to keep up the perfect life. Always got the perfect social media presence, always. Oh, just doing great. Too blessed to be stressed and all that at church. Yeah, I mean, we do need to do. I say we need to do better some places to have a good. Do this well, you know, and that's the problem. And one recurring theme in all of these is a lot of these people take their one bad church experience and make it all churches everywhere this way. I don't think that's the case. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I really appreciate Your guys points, because I was thinking like, you know, if you were coming from, let's say you were in a physical therapy rehab, something along those lines. The goal. And even if in actual rehab, you know, AA or something like that, and I know people stay in that for life, but I was thinking about, like, if you were broken, you would find solace around some other broken and then you'd be called to higher standard. But ultimately you'd probably want to. Wouldn't it be nice if you were around people who had been through the same surgery as you or broken the same bones and came out of it. And came out of it and now they were like, hey, I see what you're going through. But also here's, here's what it takes to get to where I am. That's what we're talking about. Now. What, what these people are talking about is let's just go back to all the people that are perpetually. They perpetually have broken bones. And we're just trying to figure this whole thing out together. Like, no, we're not. I'm trying to go to the guy who's gotten through this and who, who can actually help me get to the next level. Well, church ought to be able to offer that. So you guys are spot on in the fact that we have to open up about it. But on the other hand, we have to be willing to admit that maybe being around all of the broken people, and we've talked about it before, we railed on this before, we're all a bunch of broken sinners. Like, no, we are reformed saints. We are forgiven and being perfected. We're sanctified saints that are trying to be more like Christ every single day. That means we're not always going to be the muck in the mire type of thing. The prodigal son comes home. That's important for us to remember that. The prodigal son comes home to the functional father. And yes, he finds it, but that means he's also in the Father's house. And there's expectations in the Father's house. He doesn't get to stay and just wallow in the mud pit with the pigs. That's a lot of what that means is we're going to go find grace and honesty from them. Well, sure, everybody's hurting in the midst of the pigs. What are we doing to get out of it? And that's what church can offer. But yeah, people are going to have to do it. And the other thing that I'll say real fast is it means we're going to have to figure out the difference between arrogance and confidence. The ability to say, be like me as I am, like Christ. We have to have people willing to be open, raw, honest, but also call other people to a higher standard and say, hey, I'm. I'm. You know, I've been through this. Let me help you along the way. A lot of people, if they can't immediately connect with them and be like, I'm going through the same thing, then they basically shut off, you know, we have nothing in common type of thing, or I don't want to tell them. I don't want to burden them with my problems, or, oh, man, I don't know. I don't even know how I got through it. I don't have anything to say. Like, maybe you do. [00:19:26] Speaker C: So that was actually my bulletin article for this week was Paul's. I call it the paradox of Paul, where he's the same guy that says, I'm the chief of sinners and try to imitate me as I imitate Christ. Like, you can do both things. [00:19:39] Speaker B: Humility, but also a spiritual confidence. [00:19:42] Speaker C: Right. And so the other point about this, I think this is one worth dwelling on. And we can move past some of the other ones a little faster. The idea that Christians are very judgmental, that why are you not honest to church? Why do they get grace at the Waffle House? Because there's no judgment at the Waffle House. And so those memes, we were just talking about it a minute ago before we got on about, here's a tattooed woman in church. Would you sit, you know, let her into your church? Or would you sit by this woman at church? Like. [00:20:06] Speaker B: And do you know how many Christians share those posts? [00:20:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, just one of the good ones. [00:20:13] Speaker B: It's church of Christ. Virtue signaling is what it is. [00:20:15] Speaker C: It is. And this is one. I mean, like, these things, I. I see them from time to time, have like 92, 000 shares, 150, 000 shares of. It's just so sad that, you know, churches would reject it. I've never been around someone, you know, people like that. I might have told this story before. We had a homeless guy that smelled awful because he was. He was living outside, and we were trying to take care of him, help him out. He was coming to church, and the little old ladies at church were very skeptical. It was kind of very much like, what's going on with this guy? Filled him up plate after plate at the pot, like, heaping with food. Here, take this. Take this let me get to me. They come to me like, is he safe? Is this okay? But they were welcoming. They brought him in, and it was perfectly fine of them to come and talk to me that way. That is a fair question on their part. But they also were so welcoming and open to him. And, you know, that's what you find in most churches. Is there a judgmental old lady at church? Here and there, yeah. Is there a judgmental guy that, you know, not in my church? Yeah, probably. But, like, this stereotype has to go well. [00:21:13] Speaker A: And let's stop sharing those things on Facebook. Yes, we're doing, again, the pat ourselves on the back and virtue signal. Like, detrimental, Right? Let's tell the stories about the little old ladies at your church, Jack, that are piling them high with plate. Let's tell those stories. Let's help people realize, hey, real good things happen here as well. Instead of, oh, I would accept them. It's like, people already accept this person. Okay, so let's speak to that. And maybe let's touch that person's soul and say, why are you so afraid of getting rejected in church when really we're appealing to God? You're appealing to God for clean conscience. There's always going to be jerks. There's jerks everywhere you go. If there's jerks at the bank, doesn't mean I don't walk in there like, I'm appealing to God. And so they have their own reasons to be there. But for everybody else, please stop sharing these things on Facebook. It makes the church look like we're a bunch of judgmental. But, oh, but I'm better than that. There's no room for this in church. It's like, it barely happens. There isn't room for it in the church. Stop making a big deal out of something that isn't there. You are bringing the name of the church down by trying to bring it up. That's not okay. [00:22:10] Speaker B: If you had a company that you worked for, for, you know, any amount of time, but let's say call it 5, 10, 12 years, whatever it is, you're going to build up a level of loyalty to where, you know, somebody starts saying some things, what are you going to do? Naturally, you're probably going to defend it, say, well, no, that's not the company I know. [00:22:24] Speaker A: You're probably. [00:22:24] Speaker C: You're not going to see. [00:22:25] Speaker B: You know, you're not going to be somebody who, you know is going to jump on social media and slamming your company like, yeah, man, this company's terrible. I can't imagine, never mind that they, you know, pay for my benefits and pay for my insurance. Like, you know, you don't see that take place. People have this inherent loyalty with the places that they work with, you know, with stuff like that. And then these Facebook posts. And not to just echo what y' all said, but, man, it literally is the virtue saving, what I already said, but also the. Basically, you're wanting to plant your flag as well. We're the night. I'm the nice Christian. I'm. I'm nice. There's a lot of people in my church, you know, kind of trying to be friends with the world and show the world that, you know, we are, you know, welcoming and tolerant and all those things. To me, it's just so counterproductive, and it comes across as very, very flaky. Like, you are literally attacking the organization or the. The group of people that you're supposed to be belonging to doesn't come across in a. It's. It's one of those. What the kids are saying. It's not quite the flex that you think it is. [00:23:22] Speaker C: That's. [00:23:23] Speaker B: That's exactly what it seems like it. [00:23:24] Speaker A: Is to me when you spark something in my mind. You know, we live in a glassdoor/yelp TripAdvisor world where who are the people leaving reviews? Who are the people talking about it? Of course, you know, as we talk about xdoc, like, the people that are loudest, the people screaming loudest, the ones that get on Yelp are the ones that have a bad experience. Whereas there's. There are tens of thousands of people on a Sunday that have a fantastic experience at church. But they're not going to get on all of these forums and talk about how the little old ladies are filling up. The guys played at the pot. Like, they're not going to do that because it's just kind of like, no. [00:23:54] Speaker B: They'Re saying, well, I came in with a tattoo and somebody gave me a dirty look. Right? [00:23:58] Speaker A: So you're going to hear the bad ones. And when we perpetuate this as though that's every one of them, you were discounting the tens of thousands of other people that had a great experience on a Sunday morning, who love their church family and who are proud to be a member of the Church of Christ, you discount all of them because one person may have had a bad experience somewhere here. There's. It's the same thing as Yelp. Like, you can get onto the literal greatest restaurant in the world, and it's not a 5.0. There's always going to be somebody complaining and sometimes those actually have bad reviews and it's because somebody wants to nitpick about something. Well, they should have done this and they should have done that. Like, man, let's show a little wisdom here and ascertaining what exactly is going on here. [00:24:35] Speaker B: And just to echo Jack's point, obviously there are people in the Church of Christ who are judgmental and are, you know, just don't act the way that they should. That needs to be called out. And I will be the first one to call it out. That does not set the standard for how the Church of Christ as a whole operates. Like, you can't make the exception the. [00:24:54] Speaker C: Rule there, Jack, sir. No, it's the religion. I'm not religious. It's a relationship. It's a relationship. It's the same thing. Tim Keller tried that for years. Oh, Jesus wasn't all about religion. Come hear about it at my church building on Sunday morning at 9. Like, nobody's buying that anyway. Okay? And it's kind of, oh, Christians stink. Except for me and the group of Christians I'm part of. Like, stop doing that. Tell the world. You know, this is a place where you're going to meet kind, loving people. So, yeah, yeah. The, the. You found more grace and honesty at the Waffle House Occasionally. True. I just like, it's overplayed as well. Some stories make you laugh, some bring tears, and some stay with you forever. Ink by the Barrel by Joe May is a powerful collection of true stories from small town Arkansas. Stories of faith, heartbreak, healing, and the kind of humor only real life can write. From wild childhood adventures and front porch wisdom to hard lessons in heartbreak, trauma and healing, Joe opens up with raw honesty and just enough Southern humor to keep you smiling through the hard parts. It's about faith that holds you together when the world falls apart. Grace that shows up in unexpected places and finding joy even in the middle of the mess. If you love stories that are funny, moving, and deeply rooted in God's love, this one's for you. Get your copy of Ink by the Barrel by Joe May on Amazon today. All right, this one, the classic the Drake meme. The Drake rejecting one, picking the other, rejecting the churches of Christ, rejecting, celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, taking, arguing over the exact time he died and acting self righteous about not celebrating him on Easter. [00:26:36] Speaker B: That's pretty good. [00:26:37] Speaker C: It's a funny meme. I don't know. [00:26:41] Speaker B: Right? Joe, why don't you go first on this? [00:26:42] Speaker C: Yo, jump out there, Joe. [00:26:43] Speaker A: This I Actually, I think this is good. I think this is good because it is true. Like, we are man, do not do a, don't preach an Easter sermon. We're going to be upset. Like, okay, so first off, that's the story. [00:26:58] Speaker B: So let me get this straight. You don't want me to preach on the Resurrection? Is that what I'm hearing? [00:27:01] Speaker A: Right, right. Like what we celebrate every, every, you know, every week of the year. Like, I get that, but the rest of the world has our mind on this thing. [00:27:09] Speaker C: As a friend pointed out, come on, 52 Sundays a year. How many times do you hear the Resurrection mentioned that and not 52? [00:27:17] Speaker A: And so 4th of July, we only celebrate freedom one time a year. No, we celebrate it every year. But there's a time to celebrate it. [00:27:22] Speaker C: We're only thankful on the singing service on Wednesday night before Thanksgiving. [00:27:27] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Like, I think this can be year round and we can still celebrate. It's the same as a birthday. Like, I love my wife every day of the year, her birthday is a little more special. Well, you know, this day comes around. This one's more accurate than Christmas, I'd say. But man, people make a big deal out of it. I don't know. I think that's one of those that nobody, you better not be leaving a church because of this. Okay, this can't be one of those, like, oh, wow, you know, they're so judgmental on it. On the other hand, I think we need to probably take a step back and go, is it the end of the world if people celebrate Easter now? Having like Easter bunnies hopping through the foyer? Probably not. But celebrating the Resurrection, absolutely. [00:28:03] Speaker B: I feel like. I agree. Obviously, if this is why you're leaving, you probably got bigger issues, I think, to kind of steel man it here. This is kind of emblematic of a bigger church of Christ issue. The people that are, you know, get all up in arms about, you know, somebody Preaching on Matthew 28 on, you know, Easter Sunday or, you know, the, you don't you dare do a Christmas sermon. You know, I, I, I think I, I think that's a somewhat legitimate gripe to kind of look at that with a raised eyebrow and say, why are you dying on that hill? Like, sure. We don't want to say, hey, Jesus died on 25 December when he probably didn't. He's probably in the spring. [00:28:44] Speaker C: Sure. [00:28:44] Speaker B: We don't want to be factually incorrect. Yeah. Or born. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah, born. But if, you know, but if somebody wants to. Yeah, I don't know. I I've. I'm right there with you, Joe. This is always frustrating me. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it's emblematic of a bigger Church of Christ issue that we are. We want to die on these hills. It's like, man, I really just don't think that that is of the utmost importance to die on, if that makes sense, Jack. [00:29:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, to. To do the steel, man. The argument is we're not authorized, we're not commanded. This is not an example in the scriptures to mark this date on the calendar and come back around to it every single year and celebrate it. And so. But that's what the meme is getting at, is that you're kind of. You're overthinking, missing the point. You're missing the point. You're overthinking it by saying, well, are we supposed to do it on this day? Or whatever? Like, well, historically, it was roughly this day. You know that. Especially with the Resurrection, that is. And it's a good thing to celebrate the. Well, we have no command to do it. There's a lot of things. We don't have a command. We don't have a command to again, have that. That Wednesday night Thanksgiving singing service. [00:29:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:56] Speaker C: We don't have the command to have your. Your 4th of July sermon that a. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Lot of churches have Sunday nights. [00:30:02] Speaker C: Well, Joe, you just did a Father's Day sermon. It was a good sermon. But, like, why is that one? Okay. And this one's not? And it's. I guess it's because the religious roots of the Resurrection, where Father's Day doesn't have the same roots, but you're still taking the same thing of, like, here's a day on which we can celebrate one particular good biblical thing we weren't commanded to sell. I mean, you can get really in the weeds, which again, is the point of the meme. [00:30:25] Speaker B: And isn't this where Romans 14. Not to get off into this, but Royal Romans 14 comes in about one celebrating a day above another. So, yeah, that would be the only thing I would add. [00:30:35] Speaker C: Yeah, an interesting one there. So we might have lost some of the. The ex. People on the. The previous discussion, but hey, there are some. We're giving you a little bit of credit here on. On some of the points. So the next one, spongebob meme. Oh, man, it always kills it when you read a meme. But again, we have people listening on audio, so here you go. It's a list. Acts 10, where an entire family is saved before baptism, the entire fourth chapter of Romans saying Abraham was saved by faith by before works justified by faith literally everywhere in the Bible. Romans 14 saying not to force your personal convictions on other people. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Oh my goodness. [00:31:12] Speaker C: And then he takes the piece of paper, throws it in the fire and says we only go by what's in the Bible. [00:31:19] Speaker B: This requesting permission to slam this one, Jack. [00:31:22] Speaker C: Knock yourself out. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Go for it. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Oh my goodness. This one's just, just maddening. So yeah, the second one on there, the entire fourth chapter of Roman saying Abraham was saved, you know, by faith before works. As if baptism, as if acting like baptism is not a part of that faith. As if acting like Romans 6 doesn't exist. Like, I don't, I don't know. Go read two chapters later. Justified by faith, literally. You know, so the next one being justified by faith literally ever in the Bible. How about baptism saves you being in the Bible 1st Peter 3, 21, Acts 2. Like, man, like I, I could play that exact same game that they're playing, I guess is my point. Like there's a lot of things in the Bible that you're clearly ignoring. And then trying to say that baptism is a Romans 14 issue is just a. Like tell me that you don't really know your Bible all that well without telling me you don't know your Bible all that well of trying to make, you know, your personal conviction on baptism. Like, no, this is a very central doctrinal component. It's not. You know, again, so again, trying to loop that into Romans 14. This one, this one is pretty maddening for me. Joe, I'll hand it to you next to kind of back clean up there. [00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, just I was looking through the Acts 10 passage with Cornelius there, his family. Yes. He receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous setting the same way going echoing Acts 2, which is ushering in the Gentiles. It's kind of a big deal that he was the very first Gentile convert. Like this is a world breaking event. Like one of the most significant events in history taking place in Acts 10. So yes, the Holy Spirit is poured out in that and then what do they immediately do? Go and get baptized. There is not one conversion in Acts where baptism is not brought in. Romans 14 saying not to force your personal convictions. Okay, well once again, as you said, let's go back to Romans 6 and talk about what's a personal conviction and what's doctrine like man, this is a maddening thing. But it goes to the. We only go by what's in the Bible. They think we throw out what we don't want. Like, they can't possibly fathom that. Maybe. [00:33:16] Speaker B: No, we have explanations for all that. Correct. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Maybe we read it differently and understand it differently. Oh, Justified by faith. I've never read that before. Now, to be fair, to be fair, I always say the same thing to the other side because we are the first to get on there and be like, what, you know, have, have. Calvin has never seen that. He wishes for none to perish, but for all to come to repentance. Like, yeah, they've read that one. [00:33:35] Speaker B: We do the mic drop thing. [00:33:36] Speaker A: We do the mic drop thing. They're trying to do the mic drop thing here. Justified by faith. Like, wow, I've never seen that before. Of course we have answers that. They have answers for theirs, we have answers for ours. It's two different ways of viewing the Bible. We have to be able to process through and really work through with them where we come from. [00:33:50] Speaker C: And. [00:33:50] Speaker A: And if we're just going off of baptism, it's so stinking obvious, the New Testament, you have to try to miss it, in my opinion. And I know that's a controversial statement, like a lot of people do, but man, every conversion in acts and again, 1st Peter 3, 21 and Romans 6 and the great commissions with baptism and, you know, Mark 16 and I mean, we could go on and on and on. Like, you really kind of have to try hard to miss the baptism one. So I don't know, Jack, any other thoughts? [00:34:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you guys covered it really well. The. Again, the main point being these are debates have been going on for a really long time. And to say it as if one side is totally ignoring the Bible. Come on. And yeah, so it's a pretty ridiculous one. We'll put this one down pretty hard. All right, moving on. The rule of the cult is if you believe more conservatively than the other person, you are guaranteed a spot in heaven. This one, he might actually, he or she might be drawing on the Rick Astley chairs thing we've talked about before of I'm more conservative than you are. That is a fair critique. That there is kind of that ratchet effect that if we're not careful, it always clicks one farther to the right and doesn't move backwards. The progressives do the same thing. Oh, I'm more tolerant than you. I'm more allowing than you. And I've written on this before. We've discussed that. I don't want to spend a ton of time on it. There's a little bit of validity in this. Of. Yeah, There is always a contest to be. Oh, oh, you allow that? I don't allow that. I guess I'm more conservative than you. I'm more biblical than you. Because you won't condemn such and such thing as a sin or you won't, you know, you allow this thing that I'm personally against, therefore. Wow. I guess I don't. You don't care about the Bible as much as I do. And that can spiral when it starts to become a competition. And I think that does happen. But that doesn't mean every move toward a more conservative stance is that I. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Grow frustrated because some of these aren't things that you even do or even believe more conservatively. Are you aligned with someone who is, you know, in any way that is. That is less conservative? So did you speak on that lectureship that one time with so and so. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, you know, man, I don't know that heaven's going to let you in type of thing. Yeah, that absolutely happens. So we've had that happen to us. Things that we don't even do that we. Behaviors we don't have. But based off of a belief or based off of a misunderstood belief from their part to ours, we are now Satanists, basically. I mean, this. These things take place. We're cursed, all of those things. Yeah, we've heard those all before as well. And they pat themselves on the back because they're more conservative than us. So to say this doesn't happen. Like, it's absolutely happened to us. We understand it. But here's the thing. We're still here. We're still in the church. There's no reason to walk away from that just because there are some people that are more, you know, that believe they have a higher standing with God because they're more conservative. Yeah, there's a lot of people out there I disagree with. A lot of stances I disagree with. I'm not leaving the Church of Christ. I love the Church of Christ. Are there people like this? Yes. Are there people not like this? Yes. So let's stay here, make it as good as it can be. I don't get the point of, like, from an XCOC or point of view. Wow, how judgmental. Like, yeah, there are some judgmental people in this and in every other denomination and probably in Islam and in Mormonism and in every other thing. Get over it. It's going to happen. That's what people do is they want a list, they make a list and they pat themselves on the Back for keeping the list. That is a three year old concept all the way up. Like everybody does that. Get over it. I don't know, I just get frustrated that people use that as the grand excuse. Like I realize people are flawed. God's not flawed. He's not. And why can't we stay and be the change we want to see? [00:37:34] Speaker B: Of course I agree with you, Joe. At the same time, I sympathize with this one a lot. This one. And maybe it's personal experience, maybe this is all anecdotal, I don't know. But I will say the most, pull my hair out, frustrations I've ever had. You know, I've been in the church, Christ, my whole life. Never, you know, thought about leaving or anything. But, you know, the most frustrated I've ever been is because of this very thing. You know, the, I agree with that conservatism competition essentially. Like, you know, I would rather burn this bridge so that I can plant my flag on your right to basically, you know, make myself look better, guarantee a spot in heaven. The great way to put it, like I do sympathize with this one because it, it makes you wonder like, man, if this is, if this is what it's all about, then do I really even want to be a part of this? If it's all about, man, how, how, how many people can I exclude? How many, you know, strong, tense, strong stances can I take that? I don't know. Obviously I agree with you, Joe. Like, I don't think that's a reason to leave. I think, I think the alternative that I would say would be you got to plant your flag somewhere, as Jack said, the progress, the progressives do this too. And you know, at some point you got to say, okay, I am going to believe conservatively on this and on a lot of things and I do want a lot of things you guys know. But yeah, I don't know. I, you know, this, this one is, is very frustrating and I think it would, it, it is a reason why a lot of people just don't feel welcome, I guess. And again, I'm not, I'm sure. Hear me, I'm not trying to say we need to accept everything and again move the left at all, but the, the constant, you know, holier than thou self righteous competition does get old at times for sure. [00:39:19] Speaker C: Oh, doubt, yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker A: All right. [00:39:23] Speaker C: This one is an interesting direction that this, it's a theme that comes up regularly and that's to bring up Donald Trump, political conservatism, political activism, things like that. Here's somebody saying 77% of white evangelicals voted for Trump in 2016. That was the catalyst for me, the Christian God. They're spelling it disrespectfully to let you know they don't believe anymore. So you can make posts like this and hope for the best. The facts are that they're God. It doesn't exist. We are on our own. So they bring up the Trump thing as 77% of evangelicals voting for him is why they left the church. Another said Trump is destroying the Christian witness. One of the most eye opening moments in my life has been the last Trump decade in America. The things I've seen, not only Church of Christ folks, but evangelical Christians as a whole to defend or support Trump blows my mind. They have literally destroyed the Christian witness to seek earthly power. It's disturbing. This is one that a lot of ex Church of Christ people hold. B, A lot of people in the churches of Christ hold as well. Is the idea that being politically active and associating yourself with a man of. I was going to say questionable but honestly not great moral character in his personal life. That is, you're so hungry for power, you've lost all your principles. Things like that, man, that's overthinking it. There's a degree of, yeah, the, the people who share the, the memes on Facebook with Jesus on Trump's shoulder and things like that. No, I don't, I don't think so. I think that that's kind of over going over the top. But on the other hand, the idea of, hey, I've been given two options and this one's going to lead to a whole lot of bad outcomes, and this one's not going to lead to as many bad outcomes and maybe a couple of good outcomes. Have I destroyed Christian witness by saying, yes, that one. [00:41:15] Speaker B: This is where I'll copy Joe's. Like, I'll click the copy button on Joe's rant from the last one and paste myself onto this. Like, so you're telling me you're gonna abandon your view of the universe, your view of creation, your view of salvation and the afterlife because of who certain people voted for? Like, say that one out loud for just a second. Like the. I know it's a social media thing, the Trump derangement syndrome or whatever? Like, man, that's on full display here. You know, of the. Well, these people voted for this guy that I absolutely think is the Antichrist. So I'm leaving the church. Like, to me is the most ridiculous Reason, of course, I would echo and agree with Jack. Like, you know why 77 of evangelicals voted for Donald Trump in 2016? Because he was running against Hillary Clinton. That's why. Like, it's really not that complicated. So, yeah, there's my kind of passionate point here. Like, I understand a lot of people hate Trump to say that that's the reason you're going to leave the church. Yeah. You were pretty clearly just looking for a reason to leave the church, and that's the answer you came up with. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Keep your kids out of public schools, Turn off the tv, actually pay attention to what's going on in the world. Anybody who has the Trump is the worst human being of all time. Like, I'm not here to say that Trump is. Is a saint. And the people that go too far by posting Jesus's hand on the shoulder, the AI images and such. Okay, pump the brakes here. But on the other hand, come on, there's a clear choice in both of those. You know, in all three of the elections he's running, there's a clear choice between somebody who is actively pursuing evil and somebody who is maybe not a good guy. I'm not. I'm not saying that he is a, you know, stellar man across the board. Yeah. He backs things that I agree with, which is, hey, how about we don't cut genitals off of teenagers and off of young kids? Yeah, that's probably a good thing that we want to support a guy who is willing to stand up against that. Or, hey, let's shut down Roe v. Wade and I'm going to put the justices in that are going to do it. Yeah, that's a really good thing. So am I glad that Christians got involved and voted for a man that was willing to do that? Yeah. Yes, I am, because that would not have happened under Hillary and it would not have happened under Biden. So that's just the facts. I'm not trying to get political here. I'm trying to say, from a Christian standpoint, what was going to happen that, like, one was going to have the outcome we wanted and one doesn't, you know, didn't. Would not have had the outcome that we wanted and did not have the outcome that we wanted. So things got progressively worse for four years in the LGBTQ and everything else. Yes. We needed to bring some sanity back. So people leaving the church over this, like, were you in the church to begin with? Truly, like, if you were supporting the other side, were you genuinely in the church to begin with, with LGBTQ and Abortion and every other crazy thing down the pike. I'm gonna. I'm a guess not. You were one foot out the door and probably two feet out the door still claiming that you were in the door. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah, sorry. [00:44:09] Speaker C: I'm sorry. [00:44:11] Speaker B: No, I did. But I'll save it. My rant's over there. [00:44:15] Speaker C: I was looking really hard for a study and I could not find it anywhere. But there was a study done a few months ago that basically just proved the political views are driving the religious views. For people on the left that are leaving the church, it's, they're not leaving. Like, it's, it's that they're. They become Democrats and leave Christianity. Not they, they leave Christianity because, oh, I don't see how you can support such things. And therefore I'm, you know, they do the I'm homeless thing. I'm politically homeless. I'm religiously homeless. No, it's that they already believe those things and that leads them away from the church. And so more conservative politics, it leads people into religion, more liberal politics, away from religion. [00:44:56] Speaker B: That's what you're seeing with Rogan, you know, going to church. Like, he's gone conservative. A lot of people. Right. [00:45:01] Speaker C: If I can find that link, I will drop it. It's. Yeah, it's impossible to find anything on the Internet anymore these days. But that view, that is a really popular one. As I said, it's been echoed for a long time. And they use that word, your Christian witness. Like that means you have to act the way that the world wants you to. That if the world is going to think it's a problem, that you are vocally anti trans or that you're vocally this, that or the other thing. You say you're going to vote for a Republican, you, you put an American flag on your front porch. Things like that, that could damage your witness, brother. Like, no, I mean, like, you know, how many things Jesus did that could damage his witness? How many things Paul did that would damage his witness? I mean, things Elijah did. How many things Moses did? Like, that's, that's part of it. Like asking is the world going to be okay with me believing this? That's the wrong question to ask. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Wrong question. Did you catch the therapy buzzword at the end too? That's disturbing. That is not okay. Like, yeah, did not miss that one. That's the always. [00:45:58] Speaker C: Exactly. Yep. All right, we're gonna have to make this into a two parter because got so much more to get to. Some really heavy stuff. Guy that really broke down the Command example, necessary inference thing. See, yeah, we got. [00:46:16] Speaker B: There was that. There was that long one. Right. That we're gonna. [00:46:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that might be good to push to the next one. The cult like thing. The idea of kind of, well, inability to allow any other viewpoints. We talked about that a little bit about on that first meme. So we'll push on past that one. This was something I found really interesting. I'm sorry, do you have some. Joe? [00:46:36] Speaker A: No, I was gonna say there. There is a legitimate level to that that I do think us not allowing any book outside. We've talked about it before, but any book outside the church of Christ, unless we be led astray, that presents very cult. Like we do need to be careful as that of boy, you can't read from that author because that'll just lead you astray. Like, I think there's a level of truth to this in terms of I'm not going to be handing a brand new Christian John Piper. Okay, probably not. On the other hand, when we can't use any brotherhood, we have the things like, hey, we're looking to do a devo book. It's gotta be brotherhood approved. Like. Yeah, but it's a devo book on like fatherhood. It has nothing to do with, you know. There's not. Nope. It's gotta be a brother like, well then start telling people to write on fatherhood. Start telling people in the church to write on some of these things. Because there's nobody in the church saying half of what we need to hear. But we can't use outside sources that comes across as very cult like. So that's just my little soapbox rant. But that one does frustrate me quite a bit that we can't use books outside the Church of Christ for like anything. Whether it has anything to do with salvation or not or any doctrinal issues or not. We need to be very careful on that front. And I know that's not exactly what this meme is getting at, but. [00:47:42] Speaker C: No. Well, the thing with this is, are you allowed to ask questions? And sometimes you're not, and that's not good. But even in that it's like, man, if you want to come in and ask, is Genesis real? What about evolution? What about things like that? Yeah, you should be able to ask those questions in church. I think sometimes what some of these people want, what I've seen others advocating is, well, we should be able to get up in front of the church and present our side. No, you don't get to do that. That is literally what you. The. The church elders are. Are in place to make sure that doesn't happen. And, I mean, there was a thing put somebody put out recently of, you know, well, it's important that we be able to hear people out. We might have somebody come in and they. They believe in theistic evolution and, you know, do we, you know, chase them out of our church? They just got here. Because that's great. We don't let that guy have a podcast. We don't let him preach. We don't let him do any of those things. [00:48:28] Speaker B: He's not teaching Wednesday night, right? [00:48:30] Speaker C: Absolutely not. We're certainly not hiring him as a. I mean, that ridiculous. So that kind of thing. Yeah. We need to have some level of tolerance to question, some level of cutting it off. And that's. That's a good balance there. The last thing, like, 30 seconds here that I found very interesting. A number of them lamented losing the singing when they left. [00:48:52] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:48:53] Speaker C: And you're also seeing in the world a lot of people going, man, acapella is so pretty. Wow, that's powerful. You remember at the inauguration, Carrie Underwood was supposed to sing God Bless America or America the Beautiful or something. Oh, yeah, work. She does acapella in the whole room. And the rotunda joins in with her indoors, and it's all echoing, gorgeous. And it's powerful. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:11] Speaker C: And everyone's tweeting, wow, this is incredible, man. This really moves you. Just people's voices, like, yes, that is like the feather in our cap. The most beautiful thing we have over everybody else. And you got people who want to compromise it. You want to give somebody a solo up there, spitting into the microphone, beatboxing, like, let's. Let's really realize what we have with acapella and be thankful for it. So just a brief point there. [00:49:32] Speaker B: I just find it fascinating that that's what they miss the most. I know that's. That is kind of what makes us unique. And, you know, they're not really getting that anywhere else they go, but. Yeah, I don't know. [00:49:41] Speaker A: That's what I was gonna say. Where else in life do you get that? Not just at another church. Where else in life do you get that experience of humans saying. That's we've talked about before. Like, human touch is very powerful. You know, in group settings, group therapy, where people put a hand on your shoulder, things like that. There's a. And the laying on of hands. I'm not gonna get weird, but, like, there's power in that. There's also power in hearing people's voices, even the Gregorian chants back and forth. There's a lot of power in that that we don't always give ourselves credit for. [00:50:07] Speaker B: Kind of like when, when you eat like just a ton of overly processed food and then you go back and you have just a very well balanced, made from scratch, you know, home cooked meal that maybe is not the fanciest thing in the world, but like, the ingredients are fresh. It, it tastes so much better. And you think about all the music today that's overproduced. And of course, I don't worship at places that, you know, have, you know, musical instruments and stuff, but, you know, I hear the stories about how I'm in a study with a Baptist guy right now and he's made the comment several times, man, he wishes the, the music, the people that control the music would like, scale the production back essentially. Like, he likes less product. And so, yeah, that's the same thing. Like overproduced music, overproduced food. You go back to kind of the stripped back, you know, bare bones version of. It's like, wow, this is actually a whole lot better. Yeah, that's, that's fascinating. [00:50:54] Speaker C: I mean, it also has like actual physical health benefits of stress reduction, things like that like that science has found. So, yeah, it's no wonder that that is a really big sticking point for them. All right, we'll wrap right there. We're going to do push, as we said, some of the heavier, weightier complaints about command example, necessary inference, about our oppression of women alleged, about the use of fear to drive doctrinal discussion, things like that. We're gonna push to next week. Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:51:46] Speaker C: Let'S go ahead and get into our Think Fast for this week, which is about the Supreme Court case in which I'm going to do the screen share thing here real briefly again, because I thought this was incredible. The Google results for SC vs US. It was where Tennessee banned surgeries and operations for trans changes for minors and went to the Supreme Court. They upheld that ban. So that doesn't mean it's banned nationwide, but states can take on laws like Tennessee and start to put that into place. Look at this Google thing. What starts off with what are the implications of the scrimmity ruling for minors access to gender affirming care. It's not gender affirming care. It's. [00:52:26] Speaker B: It's just chopping genitals off. Call it what it is. [00:52:29] Speaker C: So you've got the Guardian ban on youth, gender affirming care, how it will affect kids from the Scientific American, Teen Vogue. What this gender affirming care decision means for you. Anti trans legislation, glaad, gay, lesbian activist, whatever that thing is. The world's largest LGBTQ media advocacy organization makes their statement on it. Vox incoherent and new attack on trans rights. So this is what I just wanted to highlight that that's what Google's going to give you when you go looking for this kind of thing. What you should know is this is really, really good news. And bonus, it was done by a brother in Christ was the Skremetti. The name on the case is the Tennessee Attorney General. So a shout out to him. Just really good news. So I've got some takes on it, but I want you guys to jump in with, with any thoughts that you have on this. [00:53:22] Speaker A: I already shared it on the. The main episode, but, man, this is why politics matter. This is why. Getting the right guy in, putting people in the right position, getting the right people elected, not just president, but we're talking, you know, president that will appoint Supreme Court justices, but also on the local level, getting the right people in place, state governments, things like that, because it has very real world effects. Now we could try to go and convert everybody and that'd be fantastic, too. Convert everybody that's thinking about getting these surgeries and every parent that's going to get their kids these surgeries, or we can just ban it all out at once and say, hey, we're not going to do that anymore. I think this is a huge win and it's just a fantastic thing in general. I'm really glad to see that people are pushing back on this and in Pride Month as well. I love this, that this comes down in Pride Month, I think. Was it two years ago that Roe v. Wade was during June as well in Pride Month, I want to say. And so that's at least two of the LGBTQ months that have been ruined by. [00:54:18] Speaker C: They usually in June. Sorry. [00:54:21] Speaker A: But yeah, okay, I got you. Well, I love it. I think that's huge. So I'm in major favor of it. And another win for Christian nationalism, in my opinion. It's the same thing as, you know, cutting off people that should it be banned to do child sacrifice, which is abortion, but should it be Banned to do child sacrifice. Yeah, it was a good thing when Christians started coming into the other. These places, all these other places and, and shutting it down from a legal perspective, that's a very good thing. Same thing here. It's real good. So another feather for Christian nationalism. [00:54:53] Speaker B: That's definitely the take here to be had is that the anti Christian nationalist has to say that this is not a good thing. Essentially. Like, that basically has to be your take. If you're somebody who doesn't believe that, you know, we should be making these differences in politics. And I'm sure Jack will have more to say about that. I do want to, you know, it's a moment of pride for my home state, you know, and shout out to. I know Matt Walsh played a, you know, from the Daily Wire played a huge role in this with his Vanderbilt investigation two, three years ago. Kind of really shed light on it. And I think for me, the, the most, the most interesting thing about it is people are finally saying the quiet part out loud, as I said a second ago, of like, you know, gender affirming care. No, call it what it is. It's. You're not letting kids take puberty blockers. It's. We're not going to okay the mutilation of children's bodies when they're 10 years old and just again, saying the quiet part out loud. The common sense is, is being rejuvenated of. Yeah, we're not, we don't like, get. We don't let kids get tattoos without consent. We don't let, you know, kids smoke and like. Yeah, but we'll let them completely mutilate their bodies forever. The common sense is prevailing. Logic is. Is prevailing. And you hear that phrase done around the right side of history, you know, quite a bit, unfortunately, generally by the left. This is one that I'm fairly confident Tennessee and hopefully other states also will join in being on the right side of history on. Should have been this way all along. And I, yeah, the Pride Month. Being in Pride Month is very fat. Is very exciting as well. But yeah, shout out to Tennessee. It's a very, very cool day for sure. [00:56:32] Speaker C: Apparently there is an effort to make this a nationwide thing. Marjorie Taylor Greene is introducing a bill in the House to make this the law of the land, which I really hope goes down. My take on this goes back to something. I think Will introduced this take in the first year of. Think deeper. When he said it, it was like, what? And then he made the case like, yeah, of course. And I've written on it since we make everything about evangelism. He said evangelism is overrated, I think was your take the first time. And it's because of things like this. And this goes back to what we talked about in the main episode here of, well, you're damaging your witness. In 2016, Christians damaged their witness by voting for Trump. What was the number one reason people voted for him was for the justices. We knew Supreme Court justices were coming due and we wanted him picking them rather than Hillary Clinton. So we'll do that. And they he'll even talk about he made a coalition with religious leaders. I'm going to pick justices that uphold these things. I'm going to make them swear to uphold these things. And you got Roe v. Wade overturned. You got this thing overturned or upheld, I should say, because of that. If we had all thought about evangelistic witness of, well, man, that one person's going to think I'm really mean if I do this, therefore I can't do it, therefore Hillary gets in. We have the justices. This is forever enshrined. Abortion's forever enshrined. All these things happen. That's a bad thing. That is not a great thing. This person that we are desperately seeking their approval, they're not coming around. It's not going to be like, look, I didn't vote for them. Okay, I'll come to your church this Sunday. It doesn't work that way. And so this take that people have of, well, because of evangelism, we can't get involved in these things. Wrong. Lives were just saved by this. Good was done. Go ahead. I've got one more point on that. [00:58:19] Speaker B: I'm sorry, I was going to say, not even just that, but we're better. Our time is better spent door knocking. Our time has been. I'm not trying to disparage that, but like, man, why are you getting involved in politics? It's way more important, way more worth your time to door knock and do all this stuff. And it's like, can't we do both? But the problem is, again, to go back to the evangelism being overrated thing is like, which sounds awful to say, and everybody's gonna freak out. That's what you know, we're getting at here is, you know, a lot of people will come out and say, you know, our time is best spent on mission trips and door knocking and of course, again, very valuable things to do. This is really important too. And this is, you know, the pre evangelism point that Jack has. But yeah, I wanted to point that it's not just the, you know, it's going to damage your evangelistic witness. It's also that people think that it's not really worth your time to do this stuff and it's way more valuable to the kingdom to do this other stuff, which is just not true. [00:59:09] Speaker C: Well, a lot of the progressive churches that decry this kind of activism and getting involved in this kind of thing, but they're also very social justice minded, socially activists, things like that. Matt Walsh just did more good on this one thing alone by himself, as one man than most of those churches will do in 10 years. I mean, like literally saving young people's lives. And you can't. Like that. That's a, that's a great thing. Okay, like that, let's not downplay that. And so, yes, evangelize, absolutely. But don't take other opportunities to do good and say, well, it's because it's not evangelism, I'm just not going to do it, or because somebody who I want to evangelize doesn't want me to do it, therefore I won't do it. Doesn't work that way. So great thing again, great work by a brother in Christ to win this case. And man, pray it goes nationwide. That'd be incredible. But that's our thing. Fast for this week, as always. If you're catching this on YouTube in the standalone Think Fast, the episode itself was looking at ex Church of Christ arguments, why people left and whether we think they hold any water. Some yes, some no. So it's a pretty interesting mixed bag. Be looking out for that on Monday and be tuned into the Think Deeper podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to join us on Focus plus, the Deep end, as we call it, where we take your questions and have a bit of more of an extended episode, check that [email protected] plus. But if there's nothing else, we'll talk to you guys on the next one. [01:00:36] Speaker B: Sa.