Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Will Harrop and Joe Wilkie. Once again, this week we are going down kind of one of our list episodes. We do these from time to time. And this, this idea was sparked in my head. I just did an article about Sunday church attendance I posted on Substack about, you know, hey, people really need to get to church and not skip, skip for their kids sports.
The pushback I got was unbelievable. And now, now these are people from all over the place. I don't know a lot of these people. It's very public forum. But no, we can come to God in our own way. Kids don't need to be taught to be, you know, dictated by religion and things like that. And it was pretty wild. But even within the church, I think maybe most of us in the church of Christ, most would say, yeah, that's wrong, but we don't do anything about it. And so that kind of gave the idea for this topic, which is sins that have kind of become acceptable. Sins that it's kind of like, well, everybody does it or we kind of know it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Or if somebody does it, it's just not a big deal and it just kind of flies under the radar sins, I guess, sins that we've become seared over, kind of accustomed to was the idea for it. So we've got a few different directions we want to go.
Be very interested to hear in your comments after the episode what you think we missed. But what do you guys have to add as we introduce the topic here?
[00:01:33] Speaker A: I think it's interesting. Our last Think Fast was about the Coldplay scandal. And the world's kind of been talking about that for a couple months or a couple of weeks, I should say. And for the most part, everybody can look at that and go, oh, wow, that's just completely unacceptable to the infidelity, the adultery, and rightly so, of course.
But as you're speaking to Jack, feels like there are some things, and we've got a list of it looks like seven different things here that people seem to be a little bit more accepting of or a little bit more looking over it a little bit more and kind of brushing it aside. And I'm not necessarily a believer in the idea that every sin is exactly the same. I think obviously if you sin against God, then you are just as guilty as a different sin. But I do think the Bible teaches there due to the consequences, due to the spitting in the face of God that, you know, certain sins kind of have the first Corinthians 6 of your body's a temple. Like, I do think there is a certain gravity to certain sins that we should not just try to discount by making them all equal at the same time. I think this is a very appropriate topic for especially those of us who would even consider ourselves faithful Christians, is to make sure that we don't fall into some of this stuff to make sure that we don't have sins in our minds that are like, okay, it's really not that big a deal.
So as a result, we're probably not teaching our kids that it's a big deal. And so those little sins can turn into little, maybe more acceptable, quote, unquote, sins can turn into the bigger sins very, very quickly. You're kind of my introductory thoughts.
[00:03:02] Speaker C: Well, that's what I was going to ask. I was curious here guys. As we get into it, we could ask at the end or we can ask now why these do kind of go under the radar. There's a thought in sports of like, if you cheat on every play, they can't always call it. Right. We saw this and for any Oklahoma City fan, sorry, but this is what they did to Jokic is if you foul him every single time he comes down, you can't possibly call a foul every time because every one of their players would foul out. So you just reach in and you do the fouls and everything else and it just kind of goes that way. And I think when everybody does it, it just gets normalized and. So is it a foul? Sure, it's a foul and anybody else would be able to call it a foul. But if it's happening consistently with enough people doing it, at some point it's just kind of like it becomes noise. It just becomes something that we all sort someone of accept. I mean, that's my theory on it.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: But I way of putting it is like speeding. Like everybody goes three miles. Like you're reviving, you're almost never going to be pulled over for going over too over the speed limit. So everybody just can kind of. And I know they're giving you leeway and all that, but like that, that's kind of a similar idea of, you know, the, the standard starts to shift a little bit, starts to soften and you know, go.
Might go away in some ways.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Right?
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Well, my answer would, in addition, I don't disagree with you guys. My, my addition to this would answer would be for several of these things on the list, not all of them. I feel this little gray area adultery on a cold place screen is pretty clear, right? That's pretty, pretty black and white. Obviously homosexuality is pretty. Not a lot of, you know, subjectivity there. But for some of the stuff that we've got on our list, and we won't keep you guys waiting much longer, we'll go and start the list here shortly, there is some subjectivity to it. Even though the Bible does specifically condemn from our point of view each one of these things, we what might fall into a category of, for instance, slanders. We've got one on here. Or immodesty for some people might be different than somebody else. And so that's where I feel like the range of acceptability does extend a bit. And so that's part of the challenge that we're going to have to address with this episode is like, okay, so the Bible says don't slander what qualifies as slander? And so that would be my answer, Joe, of why kind of the range of acceptability expands. Just because with some of the stuff there does seem to be a bit of subjectivity that what might look like slander or immodesty to one person might not to somebody else. And so if the Bible doesn't give us a specific, this is what slander is and this is what immodesty is, which we're going to argue, maybe it actually does, then where do we go from here? So yeah, that would be my answer to that.
[00:05:27] Speaker C: I think there's a level of training our consciences to be able to determine what is and is not right. And Scripture speaks to this.
We need to be able to say that is wrong. And so many of these things are calling it out on your own. Yeah, some people may be privy to some of this and a lot of this is going to be an individual thing of am I doing this? And this is where we pray for God, please help me see or reveal to me my secret sins. We want to make sure that we are on top of these things and that we have enough self awareness to say, yeah, maybe I did venture into slander a little bit there. Whatever it is. That's the other part of this that's really difficult. Some of this is easy to call out, some of this is really difficult to call out for. Yes, the standard kind of the gray area. But also it would take at a certain level of internal understanding and self awareness to say, I think I ventured into this area or you know, I don't want to reveal all of them like grudge holding that is an internal thing. I can't know if somebody holds a grudge against me. But that is something that that's between them and God that they absolutely need to handle. But that assumes they have enough self awareness to realize I think I'm holding a grudge. And that's the other part of it that makes it really difficult. But Jack, I'm curious if you have any thoughts before and then you can get us into the number one.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: No, no. I think your theory about kind of the. It just being common. But I mean Will's right about the gray area. And as we'll get into with each of these, like there is a point at which. And we'll start with the first one, as I mentioned with the article I wrote was on skipping worship. That was the post I made. It was on Substack's notes feature. It's kind of like a Twitter, like you post little things and people interact. But I just said skipping Sunday worship for youth sports is a sin and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
And immediately it came back. Where does it say that in the Bible and all the other things I said religion and relationship and not religion. And you know, kids, you can meet God on the ball field, you can meet God anywhere. He doesn't need you to be in a building, all those kinds of things. But that question of is it even a sin? Well, missing worship like one time there is that spectrum there. Sometimes it's a sin, sometimes it's not a sin.
What makes it a sin? Obviously, you know, forsaking the assembling. Hebrews 10:25 and the reasons why you go to the assembling of the saints, Hebrews 10:23 and 24 is a big part of that, is you need to be there to encourage. But you also need to give God your best. You don't, as I characterized it in the article, you don't give God, you go to church unless you have something better to do. And that's what you're saying is, well, we had something better to do. We had to go to the little Timmy's football game.
No, that's wrong. Like that, that, that's not okay.
It's become an acceptable sin because, well, you know, so and so has to miss for work and well, you know, sometimes you're sick. Like, well, these are all different categories and these should all be case by case as to what they are. But when you just blatantly say, no, I've got something better to do, that's a problem.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: The Context absolutely matters. As you just spoke to, like, you know, well, you know, I was really sick. Okay, Nobody's gonna, you know, chastise you for skipping because you were, you know, violently ill or something like that. But the context of as your post was referencing Jack, Youth sports or we want to get an early start on our vacation, so we're going to leave early Sunday morning and drive all the way and get to the beach or whatever.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Or we got back last night and it was just kind of late, so we're tired.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Right. Or, you know, the. I just, we had, we had a really busy weekend. I was up late Saturday night. I just, man, I can't make it Sunday morning.
Sorry. Like, the context does matter. The explanation, slash, excuses does matter. And I think this is where, as I have implored on probably a dozen episodes before, it is high time for us to use our common sense on these things. Being sick or, you know, you know, something of that nature is very different than, again, the football game thing. And so Jack, Jack referenced Hebrews 10:25. I'm going to read 24 and 25 together. Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another and so much the more as you see the day approaching.
And then he goes immediately into, interestingly enough, about the idea of sinning willfully. If we sin willfully after we receive the knowledge of the truth.
I don't really understand why this one is so controversial.
[00:09:32] Speaker C: But we.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: I've had this before where, you know, we'll bring up, hey, this individual does seem to skip a lot. Maybe is a twice a month person or even a once a month person, you know, is that within the realm of the congregation or the elder, specifically to do something A lot of people don't think it is. A lot of people think it's just, oh, man, they need to show up when they can and we just need to be grateful for them being there.
I think Hebrews 10, you could add Acts, you know, obviously Acts when you see them gathering together on the first day of the week. You could talk about Ephesians chapter four, about, you know, the way that the body is to be joined together, every whatever joint supplies, obviously First Corinthians 12. Like, I know now I'm just referencing verses, but like, there is this idea of the body needing to be together as the body. And I love the way Jack put it of like, worship, you know, we'll Attend worship unless we have something better to do. There really should not be hardly anything that supersedes that list like that. And I think I want to credit my, my parents for kind of instilling that of like there's basically nothing else is top priority. Wednesday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night. Like nothing else is top priority. Again, if you have to work here and there. Random. I've had to work on a Sunday before all, you know, one off type of things. It happens.
The context of it very much though, does matter.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Well, in the Acts passage that you mentioned is interesting because Paul specifically delays his trip so as to be able to be there on Sunday. Like it mattered that much to him to be able to have Lord's supper with the saints. That, yeah, he's willing to delay his trip and his plans rather than, well, I guess we'll just catch it on the way. I come to God my own way. I could be in the middle of a, you know, middle of the Mediterranean Sea on a boat and I could find God. No, now somebody says, he says, you know, he stayed over in Acts 20.
The couple angles for me. First off, what's interesting is all of these people that are just really tired on a Saturday night, they're not too tired to get to Timmy's baseball game at 9am, you know, on a Sunday.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Morning or work day on Monday or work on.
[00:11:23] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. They don't skip those things. They're not too tired for that. Oh, it's been a long week, whatever it is. Even if it says baseball game, you know, and it's not a long weekend or whatever else. Like, what message are you sending to the kid? And there's something we've talked about.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: This is not that important is the message.
[00:11:39] Speaker C: And my parents were very strict on this. We would travel for hockey. I mean, I traveled out of state and played a lot of different places around the nation.
Guess what? We go to a different state. Mom and dad would be spending thousands of dollars. And it's like, if it's on a Sunday, we're not doing it. We go to a church in the area, wherever that may have been.
Wow. You know, this is. No, this is Nationals. You gotta understand this is Nationals. Like, this is God. You gotta understand this is God. Like he comes first. But there's a church discipline element to this that I think has to be brought in, which is we need strong leaders who are willing to call this out from the pulpit and, and strong elders who are willing to take these people aside and show them a better way, take them Aside, say, hey, this is not okay. And, you know, scripturally speaking, we need you to be here. You are forsaking the assembly, and this is also a sacrificial thing. What are you willing to give to God? Well, clearly we know where the sacrifice stops. You are willing to give money in the plate. You were willing to give a little bit of time for that workday that we had a couple weeks back. You're willing to show up on most Sundays. But we know where it stops if Timmy's baseball game is in the way. That's the one thing you won't sacrifice for Christ. And all my mind goes to is rich young ruler, like, will you do it? Will you give up Timmy's baseball games? Well, we kept all of it since our youth. You know, we show up all the time.
Will you. Will you give up his baseball games? No, we won't, because I want my kid to be rich and famous. That's really what it comes down to.
Well, that's the rich young ruler situation. At what point do elders get to call it out? Jesus did.
The guy went away. Sad. We have to be willing to lose members to stand up for what is right. And I think that is the stronger problem here is you're always going to have people that are going to look at the world and they're going to see that, man, Timmy is going to lose all his buddies, all his friends, because he said no and he couldn't come on Sunday. Yep, Live that one, too. That's really, really tough.
On the other hand, man, you open some serious doors of opportunity. And instead, we have made. We've sacrificed God on the altar of Timmy and his future.
That has to be called out. And there has to be a level of church discipline to it of like, okay, we realize you've done it. Now it's time to go and sin no more.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: One thing that I want to add, and then, Jack, I don't know if you want to move us to the next one, if you have other thoughts. It's not even just, Joe, that we have not done the church discipline, for the most part, in congregations across the nation, not done the church discipline thing, not held people accountable. It's not just that we have gone in the other direction and done things to exacerbate the issue, done things to enable people, AKA live stream. Oh, you can't make it. That's okay. We've got our, you know, just log on to Facebook Live stream. Log on to the, you know, catch it on YouTube later or, you know, oh, you can't make it Sunday morning. That's okay. We'll provide the Lord's Supper for you across a 122nd span on Sunday night so that you can check it off your mental box.
Like, to me, it's not just the churches are not, you know, holding people accountable for not showing up. We're doing things to give them the idea. Yeah, it's okay. Just like, I've literally seen people that were like, yeah, I just, man, I really needed my sleep Sunday morning. But it's okay because I can take the Lord's supper Sunday night. What are we doing here?
[00:14:32] Speaker C: Like, Sunday night was created for that because literally.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Exactly right. And so I just wanted to point that out is that congregations have really swung the opposite direction again, done things to exacerbate the issue, enabled people with things like live stream and serving the Lord's Supper. You know, the second time for again, a group of four people that decide not to be there or whatever it is. And I don't know, I just have a serious problem with the, not just lack of accountability, but the other side as well.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Just briefly before we move on, are you guys familiar with broken window policing?
[00:15:01] Speaker C: I've heard the term.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: That's what New York City, Rudy Giuliani, they did in the 90s where New York, you know, there's a lot of crime, there's a lot of big crime, murder, violence, things like that. And they focused on the little things, broken windows, graffiti, litter, loitering, you know, like things that. It's not that big a deal and you think we've got bigger fish to fry. But A, a lot of the people who did the smaller things did the bigger things. But B, when you see proactive policing of like, hey, we're not tolerating you guys, just doing whatever you want it cut down. And that's where New York began, like the tourism boom and it kind of came back. You know, in a sense, I feel like things like this are the broken window policing of the church. We just kind of look the other way, like, well, I wish they were here. But we're not going to say anything about it. We're not going to put them under church discipline because they keep skipping.
[00:15:43] Speaker C: Do it, do it. Go after him for it.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Tell them, you don't get to do this. You don't get to serve, you don't get to be a deacon. You don't get to, you know, all the things like you're, you're in trouble because you're just thumbing your nose at God. Because you got again something better to do. We're not going to tolerate that kind of disrespect of God here. Like think about Aaron and the priests, the Levites. That's what they had to do was tell him you don't get to do this and get to come and come before God. And so I really think this would go a long way as if we cracked down on things like this.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: And I'm sorry, just final rant. 9am is not early.
[00:16:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Nothing else getting, getting somewhere at 9:00am if that's oh, that's just the end of the world like then you need to have better personal habits. If sleeping in, you can't get up before 9am on a Sunday morning, then there's a bigger problem there. Just soapbox of mine.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the policing.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: That's because that's going to get us into all of these is it's a smaller things that tell a bigger story. You crack down on the one, you're going to crack down on the others. And so yes, this is a broad. We won't keep making this point. If you are an elder, if you're a church leader listening, you got to crack down on these things because it does speak to a much deeper heart issue. And if everybody did what they did, nobody'd be a church. That's really the principle. If everybody did what you did is you skipped church for so and so's baseball game. Nobody'd be at church. So if it's good for you, if it's okay for you, then it's okay for everybody. In which case we have no church and everybody's doing their own thing. So I think the small speaks to the big.
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[00:17:53] Speaker C: Number two. I'll get us to number two. While I'm talking is immodesty we have gone off on this plenty. This is one of those gray areas. Will you talk about that? I don't think is as gray as people like to make it. They really want to pull it into the gray area and say, well, you know, guys need to stop looking. They put it a lot on the men. They put it a lot on kind of that, well, who's to say what's what? Like, it's, it's all a cultural standard. Back then you couldn't even show an ankle. And now obviously we don't go by those rules. And so it's very cultural. And so for this.
Curious your guys thoughts.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: I love how he says curious. Like, you know, our thoughts joke. You know what you're getting at here.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: I'm curious your thoughts specifically.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: I know what you mean.
[00:18:32] Speaker C: I'm just speaking to the gray area. Speaking to the. The idea that it is cultural. The idea that we can't necessarily. There's not a set standard for modesty and that this is really a heart issue as to maybe for the guys, but also for the women, it can be more of a heart issue. And how much they're willing to show. Those might be the arguments around it of like, we can't really call this out because really we, you know, we want to have more of a dialogue and take them to the side and things like that. And which I'm all fine. Take people to the side. At what point do we call this out? At what point is this a sin? Where do we kind of make black and white what we have tried to make a gray area.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah. That's how it became one of these acceptable sins is like, can we talk about it? Can we, can we confront them about it? I mean, like, the funny thing about this is everybody I've ever met has a point at which they'd be like, okay, you got to say something. I mean, if somebody came to.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: This is the point I was gonna make.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, they came to the church in their underwear. Even the, the, you know, most. The staunchest, you know, feminist defending women would say, okay, that, that's a little much. Even the most. Oh well, visitors might not have dress up clothes. Somebody walks in naked, you're gonna say, hey, let's, let's cover you up a little bit. Like.
And so we're just figuring out where the standard is. We're not disagreeing on the point. We're figuring out at what point can you say something. And I think so many times it goes well beyond the point where it needs to be said.
And yes, that's awkward. Yes, the, you know, somebody might blow up, somebody might have a hard time. Yes, it needs to be done with love. And in a way not to embarrass this person. They might not know better or like all of those considerations.
[00:19:57] Speaker C: For sure.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: You don't just run up and throw a blanket over somebody the minute they walk into the church with a skirt that's a little bit too short.
That's the annoying thing is people always immediately start characterizing any confrontation with an immodest person as, oh, you're just doing. No, there's a lot of ways to go about this. But again, everybody would agree at some point something has to be said.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: That's exactly the point that I was going to make. Again, you know, somebody walks in in a swimsuit or walks in and like you said, in their underwear, everybody's going, whoa, hold up. Okay, now then just start extending a little bit. Let's say, you know, they're, you know, they're have a crop top. Okay, A lot of people still are probably going to be, okay, there's a problem. But then, you know, everybody has a line. And so I'm honestly to the point because I'll speak briefly to where I don't know that it's quite as great as we make it out to be.
So first Timothy 2 is a passage we've got on our outline here.
Just, I'll read it just for the sake of reading it in like manner also that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair, gold or pearls, or costly clothing. So the word modesty is used there. Most people are gonna point out. Okay, that doesn't really say.
It's an interesting study to dive into. To me, one of the more interesting passages is from, actually from the book of Isaiah, chapter 47.
For the sake of time, I'll just kind of paraphrase it. But essentially what you find in the first several verses of Isaiah chapter 47 is you see the, basically the idea that exposing your thigh is equated with nakedness.
You see, so he's comparing, come down and sit in the dust, oh virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans, verse 2. Take the millstones and grind meal. Remove your veil, take off the skirt, uncover the thigh, pass through the rivers, your nakedness shall be uncovered. And so does this explicitly say you can't wear a mini skirt or you can't wear, you know, a one piece bathing suit or Whatever it is.
No, but what it does clearly do is equate again, uncovering your thigh, you know, exposing your thigh with nakedness. And so this is where to me the gray area comes in of, okay, well, how much of your thigh is it? The whole thigh? Is it half the thigh? Does it have to be to the knees? And, you know, maybe that's where we show a little bit of grace. If, you know, if, if you know, my reading of that is you can't show any of your thigh and somebody else's is, it can be an inch or two above the knee. Like whatever it is, maybe that's where we show a little grace.
If you got your whole thigh showing, I think it's pretty reasonable to say, okay, you know, that's in violation. But one of the questions that I had for you guys and then, Joe, I want to hear what your thoughts are on kind of the gray versus not gray. Because obviously there's the Genesis 3 thing about God giving them tunics and all that. There's a whole interesting study that we probably don't have time for.
I don't see why elders can't just have a dress code for worship. Can't establish a dress code. We do it for church camps, we do it for, you know, retreats and stuff like that. What would be the problem with elders saying, hey, guys, you know, and obviously this doesn't really have much to do with them when they're outside of worship. But hey, if you're at worship, no strapless dresses, no, you know, mini skirts, you know, no, you know, for guys, I guess, muscle shirts or whatever it is. Like, you know, not that that's a really big problem, but like, I don't really see why that would be so out of bounds for elders to. Again, we do it for camps, we do it for events, restaurants, for goodness sake. Say, hey, you have to wear a sport coat or you have to wear a collared shirt and nobody bats an eye. Golf courses, etc. I don't see what the problem with, with congregations saying, hey, you can't have a mini skirt. You again. Strapless, whatever it is.
What are yalls thoughts on that? I think that's perfectly within the realms now. Then again, then you get into, okay, what about outside of worship? How do you kind of regulate that?
Different question, I suppose. But Joe, what thoughts do you have on that?
[00:23:32] Speaker C: It's a great idea. You're right. I don't know why. It'd be super difficult. People will accept it in other areas that matter to them. If you want to be part of the country club, if you want to go to that nice restaurant, you're fine accepting the standard. So why would we not have a standard when we're worshiping the Almighty? Well, you don't know people's heart. Like the steak place doesn't care about your heart, cares about the standard. There is a standard. And your standard will acquiesce to the heart that they want, which is if you want to eat here. There you go again.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: If you hear the heart issue, if your heart is upset at the dress code, then it is a heart issue, actually.
[00:24:03] Speaker C: Exactly. And you're not going inside. Sorry. You know, that is speaking to the problem. So I'd be fine with it. The problem is, what would you say? I mean, it'd be general guidelines. We're not saying that every guy needs to show up in a tux and every woman needs to show up in a gunny sack. Ultra, ultra, like nothing showing down to the ankles. No, we're saying yes, things like that, that clearly draw the lines. And let's also, let's get back to the, the logic here, to the common sense, architecture, things like that. Art, beauty matters to God.
I'm fine with people looking beautiful. I'm fine with guys looking good, you know, looking clean in a clean suit. He doesn't have to come in looking like a bum. I'm fine with all of those things.
People like, our eyes are drawn to symmetry. They are drawn to erogenous zones. They are drawn to certain things. Let's pretend, let's stop pretending like, we don't understand that. Like we don't understand that when certain skin is shown in certain areas, it's naturally going to draw the lines to the erogenous zones, to the, to the, you know, private parts. This is not a revelation that nobody knows. Like, yes, guys look specific ways at females and you go, oh, that's disgusting. Like, God created the human body with certain curvature. God created the human body with certain things that in a husband, wife context is beautiful. Beautiful. It's fantastic. Not for everybody else, you know, to specifically, as you're walking into church and brothers and sisters in Christ and things like that. Like, that is not the place to be showing that. That's not the place to allow the lines, the, the curvature lines to, to go towards.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: No, we're talking about this in worship. This is just in general, I mean.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: And yeah, just right.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: I mean, the word accentuate exists for a reason. Like everyone knows what these things are designed for, what they're cut for. Certain things. I think one of the issues of this is it disproportionately targets women instead of men. And we've talked about before, criticism of women is not as tolerated. But even for men, you know churches that used to say you have to have a tie if you're going to serve in worship or whatever. Now if you said that, some people just lose their minds. Like, where's that in the Bible? Like, well, it's not. But you know, an eldership can say, we're going to try and dress nice here. And that's okay. Like that's.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: And so I think shorts should be on the list for guys. Talk about for guys. I think shorts should be. Don't wear shorts to church.
It is about getting the heart right. It is about looking for ways to please God. The same way that showing up to church is really important. We are not looking to displease God. And in our dress. And as you said, yes, this goes outside, just Sunday morning worship. But I do think that this is one of those silent sins that nobody really wants to discuss. And I'll tell you where it's worse. It's not usually with the wives, it's with the daughters.
Nobody wants to call out the teenage daughters who are looking like everybody else in the world with super short shorts and things like that. It is usually the. And you go, wow, that's, you know, what a perv. I'm saying the quiet part out loud. The teenage girls in churches, and we don't have that in our church. But you can look around, you can look at average youth groups. That's where the problem is most likely found is guys that can't tell their daughters, no, you're not wearing that. No, go back to your room and change into something and talk to your wife and go, why'd you buy her that? Why in the world does she have those clothes and the spaghetti strap shirts and things like that? No, why did we buy her that? You have to. As dads, you have to be the protector, even from your wife who wants to go and make sure that your daughter's not the weird one out there. You got to be willing to call out modesty and you got to be willing to say or call out immodesty. And you got to be willing to say it to your own family. If dads were policing more, this would not be a problem. But they don't want to get in the doghouse, they don't want to sleep on the couch. They don't want the daughter to be mad at them, their little princess. And so they allow way more than they ever should. And then it becomes, yes, like in the church, an elder has to say something. And I'm fine if they do the standard, but it's like, man, if we were on it, us guys, specifically husbands and fathers, things would be different.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that's, again, how it becomes an acceptable sin is you're not allowed to say anything. We're going to combine these next two. I mean, they're two separate things, but they go together very closely. Will, why don't you go ahead and jump us into the next set?
Yeah.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: So gossip and slander are the next two that we're going to cover. And we did kind of something on men and women's sins two months ago. Now, I want to say, and gossip obviously is typically associated with females and something that women do, but I want to start with the slander side of things. And the reason, again, we're combining them is because it's. It's the words that you use, it's the. The things that you say. And almost always, for some reason, those things feel a little bit less harmful, like a little bit more harmless. Even like lying for some people just seems like less big of a deal than even some of these other things are obviously the big sins again.
But when it comes to. Again, I'll start with slander, since we've already covered gossip a couple months ago.
You know, the main difference being gossip. You know, I go to Joe, Joe, did you hear what Jack, did you hear? Did you hear that this happened? And, you know, spreading rumors? And then I go to somebody else and. And tell them the same story and kind of. Even if it's a matter of like, did you hear what Jack did to me? I just can't believe that he did that to me. And then you tell 14 other people and you never talk to Jack.
Yeah, that, that's probably. That's obviously a huge problem. Slander. Where slander differs is it's. It turns public. It's a very public thing. And, you know, I think what makes this slander discussion especially interesting is you don't have a lot of people getting up on. In pulpits or anything and announcing like, this person did this. But where is the public forum for announcements about what somebody did? Where does that take place now?
Facebook, social media?
I'm sure these guys have thoughts on that, so I'll save it. But that, to me, is the best example of where we see Christians just kind of accept slander as something that is not at all a problem. Just to give a few verses. Proverbs, chapter 10, verse 18. Proverbs has a lot to say about it. I could have written down a bunch. But whoever hides hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads, spreads.
You've got James, chapter 4, verse 11, as I am turning to it here. James, chapter 4, verse 11.
Let's see. Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you're not a doer of the law, but a judge.
And then first Peter, chapter two and verse one as well, First Peter two, verse one. Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking. And once again, dozen other verses we could have thrown on this list. The Bible speaks very condemning of the Bible is. Does not look fondly on slander, nor does it on gossip. And so, yeah, I guess I'll hand it to Joe. I'll hand it to you next. What are your kind of thoughts on why we have turned both of these into something that, yeah, it's not great, but it's not the worst thing in the world almost. We tolerate these two sins.
[00:30:36] Speaker C: I think it's a very compelling, very interesting question because I was thinking about this in light of the Coldplay thing, of how quick that gossip kind of spread, you know, and obviously it's online and at that point, I suppose it's not gossip, but. But how quickly people want to wade into other. Into somebody else's business.
Both are coming from the same heart of wanting to elevate yourself above somebody else. Slander is putting somebody down. You know, you're slandering their name, evil speak, as your. Your translation says.
And gossip, I think, is subtly and maybe behind their back as well. Putting somebody else down or talking bad about somebody. And in both situations, it feels like you are attempting to elevate yourself. And it's coming from a haughty position.
It's coming from a position where you're not looking to understand or help the other person or pray for the other person or seek their best or anything like that. It's coming from a position of, wow, can you believe how much they stink and how you know how bad they are? And then on the back end of that is, I would never do that, which is just a very haughty position. So I think both of these come from a position of pride, really. Pride and arrogance and haughtiness that you do find yourself be better. And there's an element. I think we swung the pendulum back to, well, we're all broken sinners.
That kind of comes out of this to some degree of, well, we're all in the same boat. Like, no, just because, like somebody may sin egregiously and we are going to discuss that sin egregiously. We don't need to slander them, we don't need to gossip about them. We need to say, hey, how can we help them? And part of this is natural to have frustration toward other people.
We had that episode on confrontation, biblical confrontation. This is where biblical confrontation really is put to the test. It's a lot easier to go to your buddy and slander and look, being guilty of this myself, you know, with the gossip, whatever it is, I think all of us to some degree have because it's a lot easier to go and just talk about it. We're just trying to solve the problem, trying to solve the problem, trying to figure out what to do next. And I fall into that quite a bit where, yeah, you are trying to figure out what to do next. But at some point it stopped being constructive. It stopped being about planning for how to confront this person. And it just started being a venting session about how much the person stinks.
And once again, where does that come from? It comes from fearful heart. I don't want to actually have to say the tough things. And it comes from a pride of can you believe? So I mean that would just be my take on it is the heart underneath both of these is coming from the same place. But Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:32:43] Speaker B: There's a do unto others element of this of like, man, when you find out people have been talking about you and how much you stink, you know, somewhere and the problems they have with you and. But none of them cared to actually say that to you. None of them cared to sit you down. And that's not great. It's not a good feeling. You know, you don't like that. And so participating in that kind of thing is like, man, if the put the shoe on the other foot or the roles reverse whatever you want to metaphor you want to use there, that's something to avoid. And to love the person, love your neighbor as yourself and to care for their best is you really don't want them to be torn down in the eyes of other people. Now if there's things that there's times in which it's not gossip, there's Paul calling out people by name in some of his letters, like, hey, don't associate with These guys. These guys are a problem. That's not gossip. That's kind of like public record, but, you know, kind of the. Did you hear what they said?
[00:33:38] Speaker A: Or.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: Well, I've got this problem with them, like, need to know basis kind of, you know, and most of the time, people don't need to know.
And again, as you said, we can say it's constructive, but, like, we need to actually make it constructive. And then there's, you know, the side of it that's the slander side, where it is just kind of out publicly. The.
We really love calling people false teachers, don't we? We really love false doctrine. That guy, you know, he's. We've been called false teachers. And it's like, that is a really big accusation. There's, you know, your false teacher one week, the next week your brother, like, well, hold on now. Like, stand behind it if you really believe that. But that kind of slander in the church becomes commonplace. Preachers, you know, have had their whole work torn down by other people, just slander them. And sometimes the slander and the gossip overlap that it is behind closed doors. Other times it's open confrontation, accusing you of things that you never thought about doing. But all of these have to come back to, like, do I actually care about this person that I'm talking about? And what would that lead me to do if I did?
[00:34:41] Speaker A: The care and the pride. Joe. Joe spoke to the pride of.
It makes me feel better to talk poorly about somebody else, to point out somebody else's mistakes, to point out somebody else's issues. And as you said, Jack, there's a time and a place to call out something that needs to be called out specifically, you know, if it's something that might be tearing a church apart or like, we're not saying don't ever confront anybody. Or what we are saying is, for the most part, it is better to go to the source again, in my analogy earlier, you know, instead of me going to Joe about what Jack did, just go to Jack. But, you know, the pride thing is what sticks out to me because it is so sad that this stuff happens within the church. This stuff happens within the body of Christ, that we're supposed to be the, you know, most love first of all, the most loving people, you know, for each other. Not even. I'm talking about, you know, loving the world. I'm talking about that. I'm talking about to each other, towards each other. There should be grace. There should be, you know, mercy and kindness and forgiving each other as we'll get to later from Ephesians, chapter 4.
But what flies in the face of that often is, is the pride. Again, it makes me feel better. It kind of elevates me in my mind, or maybe in other people's mind to call this person a false teacher or to do whatever it is. And yeah, it's just very sad to me. And as we've said before, you wonder why the Church of Christ has a bad reputation in the eyes of a lot of people. This is a really big reason, Joe, look like you had a thought, though.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: No, no, my thought came and went. I do think that going back to the fear point, that is a massive point to this, which is, let's also be honest, that confronting people goes, well about 2% of the time, if that.
Because we can't ever receive rebuke, we can't ever be exhorted, we can't ever have our toes stepped on. We can't ever let somebody else have a problem with us without that being, oh, you think I'm a terrible person. Like, no, I have a problem in this specific situation.
So there is a lot of fear on that. I'm not saying that justifies gossip in any way, but it does lead to people saying, yeah, I don't know, if I confront them that this is going to go very well. I don't want them to leave the church over this. And so what you end up doing is just kind of you shut up and you don't say anything. But then there's a natural element of, I want to get this out. You cry out to God, you talk to other people about it. What do we do about it? And at some point, yeah, I think that can dip into gossip. But I also know that there are situations where you are trying to figure out how to confront somebody. You'd love to be able to confront somebody, but they may not be in a position to do it. And I suppose that's where faith in God comes in. The trust that it's all going to be okay if you're calling it out. And then there's the element of, like, how much of this is biblical versus I just don't like it. And how much can we put up with? I don't like it. There's plenty of things about, I'm sure that people don't like about me that they got to put up with that aren't necessarily unbiblical. And so that also plays into this discussion of the gossip, the slander, the things like that. And Jack, to your point, real fast, Then we can move on.
I think the slander, the way that it's happened toward us, you know, with, with our podcast, there are a lot of things said that just are flat out untrue. They're. They are not true in the least.
But those words get out. And people don't understand the power of words. They don't understand how much words can really tear somebody down, tear down a ministry, and how much people are prone to believe words like that, that once the slander gets out, oh, well, you're just doing xyz like, you know, you're just justifying your lifestyle. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, there's. There were a lot of slanderous said things said about us. A lot of slanderous things said about us.
And so, yeah, there's. There's some hurt in that, no doubt. And we want to make sure we don't reciprocate that we're not doing the same thing. But I do think that it's important, going back to the elder's point, to call that out where you see it. If you see somebody that's actively engaging in it, one of the hardest things to do is call out gossip or call out slander and go, hey, that's wrong.
These people need to know, because as I said at the top of the podcast, sometimes it's difficult to know when we've waited into that. It's a difficult.
It's a difficult back and forth thing. So let's go ahead and get into the next one, which I think is our fifth one here as we're going through, and that is entertainment choices. Entertainment choices. There is once again another gray area. There are certain things that I think we can all look at and say, we've mentioned Wolf of Wall street before. There are certain entertainment choices, like, absolutely not.
That is not just pushing the envelope. You have now gone over the edge type of thing, but another gray area that nobody really wants to wade into and talk about Game of Thrones, another easy one. We can pick on some of those that I think are needed because unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians that do engage in those things.
But once again, fellas, gray area wise, how do we navigate this? Specifically, as a congregation, I do think we wade into sin.
At what point does it go from unwise to sin, I guess would be the question I would open up with. Entertainment choices.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Well, when you're talking about those, you mentioned Wolf, Wall street, and Game of Thrones, big reasons behind those. One is nudity, sex scenes, things like that. You know, I mean, it's pornography. That's the thing that is weird to me is like, I'm sorry, if you're watching an action movie and there's a sex scene in it, then it's a porn movie. Like, that's. I don't know why we think of those as, like, separate things. It just is, you know, people get naked and, you know, doing things like that. So I don't know why that's acceptable or. But, you know, going into certain websites and watching people do the exact same thing isn't.
And so there's that side of it. There's also, you know, some of these movies have literally hundreds of profanities, different words that we wouldn't use. That one's a little bit harder, though, because, man, you watch anything outside of, you know, Mr. Rogers and a few choice TV shows, Duck Dynasty or whatever, you're gonna hear some level of language. And so that's where the gray area comes in. And basically what I'm saying is if you watch TV or movies, you have come to the acceptance of some level of language. But there's a point at which you can say, well, that's egregious. That's. That's too much. Well, that's very hard to draw. You know, the line of how many words are too many and things like that. You know, the nudity and sex scenes thing. Yeah, that's just a no go.
I don't know. The. The other stuff. A little bit harder.
Yeah, I didn't even bring a violence either.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. To me, that. Because this is where the gray area comes in of. I've heard of people that, you know, I watched this movie, this show, and like, my head will turn and go like, really? You watch that? But then maybe there's been a show or two or a movie or whatever that I've said, and people have had that same, you know, people may be more conservative than me have had that same thought. And so that's where the sliding scale gets a little bit difficult.
I do think I. I guess my take on the entertainment thing is we can't establish some black and white things. You just can. As you spoke to Jack, if there's.
[00:41:18] Speaker C: If there's.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: Nudity, if there's, you know, pretty. Pretty bad sex scenes in movies or what. Like, you know, Oppenheimer was a big one that everybody wanted to see. Woman was literally naked on the screen, from what I understand. I haven't watched it, but, you know, read the reviews. That's basically what it was.
A lot of movies, unfortunately, have that. And I think you can be pretty black and white, you know, according to the biblical text on that. Shouldn't be watching that stuff.
I think you can make the same application with, with like books or with again shows like anything that has that pretty black and white. As you spoke to Jack, the language, the violence is where you get less black and white. I think if movies have, you know, if you're in the triple digits on the curse words, then you know, that's black. Feels pretty black and white to me as far as the number of curse words. But beyond that it does. I will admit, even though I'm the one that put this one on the list, it does get very difficult. But you even take it into the music world.
If I hear of a, of a, you know, and there's people I know that would claim Christianity that go to like a Sabrina Carpenter concert, like. I'm sorry, what?
You know, stuff like that or.
[00:42:25] Speaker C: Whoever.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Or you know, Tate McCrae or whatever it is as far as like going to the concert or. I don't know, there's so many different things to me that do seem black and white. Like, you know, girls literally performing sex positions on stage, sorry, that is a sin to take your daughter there or something like that. Versus again, maybe somebody a little bit more tame or something that might still have. I don't know, I'm not really answering it here other than to say I think we can be black and white on some things.
Blatant nudity, blatant sex scenes, you know, stuff like that.
You know, just a mountain of, of language or, or whatever it is. Joe, I am curious your thoughts. We've had a lot of entertainment discussions before about kind of what is the standard, especially when you consider we all have young kids right now. There's a lot of things that I've watched. You know, even like superhero movies or Star wars is like, I don't really want my 4 year old watching that. Not that he watches a ton of movies or anything, but you know, that does cause you to kind of re examine yourself a bit on this entertainment question. But as we're structuring the episode around what should the church teach on this? What are your thoughts on that?
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Hey guys, I wanted to tell you about A Closer Walk with Thee Volume 1. It's a devotional book written by Joe and me. It is 90 days worth of devotionals that each day gives you a bible reading, a prayer, a meditation and a discussion question. Something that you can do quickly. It's something you can share with Others, something that will give you three months worth of devotionals to get your year off on the right foot. It's currently available on Amazon, coming soon to the Focus Press store. So go check out A Closer walk with the volume 1 today.
[00:43:59] Speaker C: Link. Psalm 1001.3 has to come in. It says, I will set no worthless thing before my eyes. I hate the works. Those fall away. Cannot fasten script on me not setting those worthless, worthless things. We can all kind of discuss what is worthless.
And once again, that's the gray area. On the other hand, I have a tough time seeing Paul or whatever turn a blind eye to Christians going to the Coliseum and enjoying it. Now, we know he enjoyed the games, but like the idea of going to the Coliseum and watching other people get killed, man, I don't know. The Bible, I don't think specifically speaks to that. On the other hand, there just once again seems to be somewhat of a common sense, like, do I really need to see that? Once it goes in, it can't come out. You know, it's not coming out. And yeah, you may forget about some of those things, but I think we have to be very choosy with what we allow into our lives and, and also understand how much that does affect us. The kids that grow up watching cussing all over the place are more prone to cuss. I do think there's a different standard for adults in some ways, because adults can. I mean, what I hear from clients over the course of a day, I don't think I've ever watched a movie that has equaled the number of cuss words that I'm going to hear there. It's just the way people talk. It's not okay.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: Same thing in people's jobs.
[00:45:06] Speaker C: Yeah, right, exactly. That's all over the place for everybody having to do it. So is there a bit of that where, yeah, you're more prone as an adult or you're more able and capable as an adult to handle that appropriately. Sure, sure, I would agree with that. On the other hand, man, when you put these things in front of your eyes, that when you're glorifying violence, when you're glorifying even. We've talked about horror films and things like that. When you're listening to these female rap stars that are just talking about disgusting stuff that will start seeping into the way you view other people, the way you view women, and the degrading way that that is, the way you view violence, the way you view kind of these train wreck approaches. And I think that's how you get things like the Coldplay thing going viral is everybody's looking for the train wreck. And that is trained off off of social media and off of movies and everything else that zeros you in on, hey, look at this train wreck. And we just get used to it instead of caring about the lives that are that are there.
[00:45:56] Speaker A: Last thing I'll say, because we got to move on. But Joe and I did a podcast for the Gallium podcast On the top 10 entertainment products to avoid. And that speaks to like, there are certain things we can just say, don't watch it, don't get involved in it. I think it's important for families to have a standard, not just to. Especially as your kids hit teenage years. You know, again, I'm somewhere that I am not yet as far as my kids, but like, not just kind of leave it out in the open. Like, yeah, you can pretty much watch whatever, just as long as it's not too bad. Like, great. That doesn't tell them anything. But have a standard. You know, subscribe to Vidangel or Clear Play or whatever it is. Like, if you know, if you're going to watch something, a lot of language, put it through that so you don't have to listen to it. War movie or whatever it is. But like, having a standard, I think is incredibly important as you're raising kids and then even for yourself as an adult, like, I will not cross this line to watch this film or show or whatever it is.
[00:46:43] Speaker C: Get us in the next one will.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Yeah, so the next one that we have on our list was kind of previewed grudge holding. Grudge holding among Christians, kind of the maybe precursor you might slay. You might say to the slander or to the gossip.
Two verse references that I will go to very quickly. The first one is Ephesians, chapter 4, verses 31 and 32. As you consider kind of the way that we as Christians are supposed to behave toward each other.
Ephesians, chapter 4. Starting in verse 31, let all bitterness, pretty key there. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
To me, that one is. Is.
Makes a very strong case like this verse 32. This is the way you should be treating each other. Not this. The bitterness, the anger, the. The malice. And then, you know, as far as an Old Testament one goes, Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 18. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge. Against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbors as yourself. I am the Lord.
You see this in so many congregations of, you know, somebody who's got a grudge against somebody else. And so the, the old kind of stereotype of we're going to sit on different ends of the. Of the auditorium, you know, different ends of the auditorium. We're going to make sure that we don't walk past each other in the hallway. We're going to, you know, everybody knows that there's something going on between us, but, you know, never really gets resolved. And that grudge can last for five years, six years, decade, however long it is.
That's about as unchristian as it gets. Like, I'm just going to say it. This is one of those sins that, you know, is viewed as kind of acceptable.
This is why I'm. I grow frustrated, and I think you guys might even disagree with me on this. But, like, frustrated with the. Well, you can't forgive unless somebody asks you to or ask you for forgiveness.
Okay? So you can't literally forgive their sin. What you can do is not hold a grudge. And I think that's what needs to be stated and expressed far more often is, you know, you. You don't need to be the person that's standing there with your arms crossed, waiting for somebody to grovel towards you, to ask for, ask for forgiveness on it, to not hold a grudge, to not say, I'm not going to hold the moral high ground over you. Because I think. I just think we have a lot of Christians that do that.
Unfortunately, a lot of times it's a woman problem, but it can very much be a man problem as well. From the pride angle of things, we just got to stop holding grudges. Like, to me, it's just about. Once again, it's just about the most unchristian thing that somebody can do, specifically with somebody in your congregation that you are supposed to be church family with, attend with.
I don't know. I. I'm pretty passionate about this one just because it's so. To me, it's immature as well. Like, I'm. I'm upset that this person said this or did this. And so I'm going to hold a grudge again, where there's legitimate wrong that's done. I think the, the Bible speaks to what should be done about that in Matthew 18. And again, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it means you don't necessarily, you know, run to open arms to forgive the person unless they're, you know, Willing to repent of it, but at the same time, for the kind of the little squabbles and the, you know, arguments. He said this or looked at me funny or, you know, whatever it may be, I think this is, should not be an acceptable sin. But in many cases it is.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: Yeah, the twice in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says things related to this. One of, you know, you're leaving your sacrifice to go make it right with a brother. But then also after the Lord's prayer of, if we don't forgive others, God's not going to forgive us.
And so, yeah, the pride, the looking down on people, holding something over somebody's head as it comes to acceptable sins. The thing that, like, why this is. And when we say acceptable, we don't mean it's okay to do it. We mean it's just things that people have come to live with. Obviously, we've kind of established. But this one being acceptable is like, who's going to be the person to go and say, hey, you got to get over this. You've got to go work it out. Now, there's a point at which you divide with somebody like, you know, Paul and Barnabas split ways and things like that. And, you know, obviously Paul, John, Mark was referenced later on. Maybe there was some kind of reconciliation there. But sometimes there's going to be people that, yeah, it comes to a point, you can't work with them. You need to leave it on good terms. You need to leave it on the terms of love or whatever else needs to be said. But I think this is one that we just kind of convince ourselves is okay because we feel like we have the high ground. We feel we were wrong. We feel the other person is just irredeemable or whatever else. Like, you gotta tell them, you've gotta have that. And yeah, it's uncomfortable. Yeah, it's a hard thing to do.
So. I mean, like, sometimes there are hard things to do in Christianity, if it was about always doing what I wanted, I wouldn't be a Christian. And so getting that realization that I can't hold that over somebody's head.
But again, telling somebody that, saying, no, this actually isn't acceptable. Just because you're mad at them doesn't mean you get to keep doing this.
I'm not somebody's parent, and I tell my kids that, no, you can't treat your brother that way. Whatever else that I need to tell him, I'm not a fellow Christian's parent. So it's weird to tell somebody, no, you can't do that? Well, we can publicly tell you on a podcast or from the pulpit, you can't hold a grudge. But then when you see it happen in real time to make it go from accepted sin to no, we're not going to have this is a hard thing to do. And having that discussion to say, actually they might be in the wrong, but you're also in the wrong by acting in this way.
[00:51:53] Speaker C: I do think gossip and Slater go along with this a lot of times because it is that pent up resentment and bitterness and anger and grudge holding that leads toward those things.
We don't have to like everybody. We don't have to be best, best best buds and be get along with everybody in every single way. And I think that's, it's almost like we treat it as you either gonna almost hold these grudges and really dislike people, or you have to like everybody. I think there's a gray area there where, yeah, you may not be super fond of everybody's choices in, in the church building or wherever with other Christians.
Still is important to try to get along with them as much as possible, to love them with Christ, you know, with the love of Christ, to work alongside going toward heaven with them. And that's where this gets off is at some point the grudge holding is not like, imagine showing up to heaven's gates and seeing the person that you've been holding, holding a grudge with for the last 15 years. Oh, you made it here. You know what I mean? Like, that's not a good look. If we can solve it while on earth, I think that's, we are as Christians commanded to do that. We got to make sure we're treating one another well.
With that, let's get into our final seventh or final and seventh on here, which is insubordination. Insubordination. Now, Jack, this is when you added and we were talking about it and you threw this on as. I don't know if this is the last one that we came up with, but we certainly put it last on the list. Even though last but not least here, within subordination. What all did you have in mind specifically within subordination?
[00:53:16] Speaker B: I'm really passionate about this. I, I think we live in such an individualist society. Nobody can tell me what to do. I mean, I've had people literally tell me that when it comes to, you know, the Bible, Christianity, whatever, nobody can tell me what to do. Like actually, yes, they can. Actually God can. But second God, you know, prophets back in the Old Testament could tell people what to do. They had that same attitude. You can't tell me what to do, Ahab, you know, with Elijah, like, oh, you troublemaker, you can't tell me what to do.
The pre, you know, the, the preachers, the apostles, you know, the, the elders of the church, like that, that's what they're there for, is to guide you and to say you this. And I think people are way too casual with the disrespect toward, Well, I don't have to listen to them. They're not God, they're not the Bible. You know, I, it's good that we all have a Bible and can read it for ourselves. But this idea of that, that way if I disagree with my eldership of how they're going about something now, obviously if they're doing something wrong, for sure. But if you think, no, I wouldn't do it that way.
You're not the elder. And so the, you know, I put on there about Saul, you know, David, I'm not going to take out the Lord's anointed David saying, look, Saul was put in place by God. It's God's job to remove him. And so with elders, but also you, you see the not my president thing.
And so not to take all the talking points here, but one that comes to mind for me is the remember the let's go Brandon thing.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: It started out as a misheard version of expletive Joe Biden.
And people just started, you know, and it was kind of funny that the reporter lady misheard it the first time it happened. But that became a thing. We will just say, let's go Brandon. The kind of people who would never use the F word that it was standing in for. But to say, I don't like this guy, you know, curses be upon this guy. I'm not, I'm trying to tiptoe or I'm not going to say, you know, the words that are involved. But like you and you knew what it was for.
I'm sorry, no, you don't get to do that. Like, you don't have to like the guy. You can say, I hope he's replaced. You can say, you know, there's a lot of reasons to, to take issue with the job he did or the people did for him. I don't know. But still you don't get to have that attitude. But we have that anti authoritarian streak, anti, not anti authoritarian, anti authority streak as Christians to elders, as citizens, to presidents, as, you know, like this as, as wives to spouse, you Know, to husbands, as children, to parents. Like the gentle parenting we did a whole episode on that is insubordination is actually, you know, you don't have the authority to tell these kids what to do. I mean, we. That's a really big problem. Literally from our youngest to our oldest in our society.
[00:55:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just gonna say Jack covered it super well. The only thought that I had to add was it's so interesting to me how we, we acknowledge that hierarchy and, you know, certain positions of authority are put in place. We acknowledge that exists when it's convenient. And when it's not convenient, it's like, well, I don't want to submit to that anymore. It reminds me of like, if you sign up for. To. To play, to play basketball in a rec league or church league, it's like, well, here are the rules. It's like, cool, that sounds great. And then, you know, your team starts losing. I don't want to play by these rules anymore. Okay, well, let's change the rules or I'm not going to listen. Like, might be a weird analogy, but to me, that's exactly what it's like. We know the rules of basketball, right? And so we're not going to change it just because you don't like it. You know, the rules of, you know, the way that God has designed the world, husbands and wives, parents and children, governments, you know, and kind of authorities there, obviously, elders and churches and things like that, you know, that's the design. And yet you want to act like, again, it's all good and fine and dandy until it's inconvenient, or you disagree, or you don't love the direction. So it's like, well, I'm going to, I guess, just kind of do my own thing.
You couldn't do that in a sport. Well, I'm just going to play my way. And like, no, you're not able to do that. And so that's just. What's again, kind of fascinating to me is that we all know the way God designed it, and yet we want to kind of ditch that when it's convenient or when it's something that we want to do.
[00:57:05] Speaker C: This is where critical theory, our episode of critical theory, comes in. How to know your church is captured.
Because this is against all of the powers that be. It's always little man overcoming the powers. It's insubordination. That's all critical theory is insubordination. And what they fail to understand is what Hebrews 13 is getting at in verse 17. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. That's the point that is missed on all of this, is they will have to give an account. And as you guys spoke to, it's nice and easy to sit back and like, oh yeah, they'll give an account.
That means you need to be in subordination to them because they're going to have to answer for you. And we're perfectly fine with the young, with the little guy, you know, the employee or whatever, making all these mistakes when it's like, yeah, but your job is not necessarily on the line as much as the manager's job is on the line. The boss's job is on the line and he's the one that is going to. Or the boss might go under. But because critical theory tells us to hate the boss, hate the owner, hate the manager, hate the whatever else, then we are absolved from having to care about anything. And so there's just this chasm that is spreading between the managers, the bosses, those in authority and those underneath, because too often the insubordinate or the, the those that are supposed to be subordinate hate those that are above them. That's not okay. That's not a Christian attitude. If you're one of those. It's the 1% hating the billionaires. That's, in my opinion, that kind of goes to this heart of insur. Subordination of like, you are not okay with leaders in the society, with people being richer than you. There's envy. We could have gotten, put greed and envy on this list. But I think the insubordination is just as hard of like, hey, well, we should be taking down all the guys that are above us. No power structures exist for a reason. We have to get used to that, even as Americans. So I'll just wrap my thoughts there.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: There's also the I'll do it as long as I, you know, agree with them kind of thing, you know, as if they're a good president, if it's a good government, if it's, if it's a good eldership or, you know, the wives, meaning their husbands. Well, if he's doing his job, being like Christ, then no, no, no, that's not what it says on any of those. Right. It says, you know, and yes, if they tell you to do something, there are limitations to the authority. Absolutely. But if your standard of authority is, I'll listen to them as long as I like what they say, they're not authority. Like, you're the authority. And so that's the problem we have there. All right, we have a short turnaround here for our Think fast.
It's been in the. The news, kind of been a trending topic. The actor, actor Pedro Pascal, who is everywhere. Fantastic Four is his new movie.
The Mandalorian movies coming out.
[00:59:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:59:31] Speaker B: I mean, they can't stop putting this guy in stuff.
Has been seen putting his hands all over his female co stars on red carpets and things like that. And the explanation is, well, I have anxiety, and when I'm around people in the cameras and all that, that helps me calm my anxiety.
[00:59:49] Speaker C: Very weird.
[00:59:49] Speaker B: A lot of people kind of took issue with it and. And. But then there's the anxiety side of it, and I, you know, it's good. We got a therapy, a therapist here who can tell us how legitimate that is. The other thing about it, it's not been a LGBT advocate. He's very big on the. The. He's got a trans brother, sister, or whatever they think they are kind of thing. So I think there's a few different angles. I'll put it to you guys. We got a couple minutes here. What are your thoughts on it?
[01:00:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that the whole anxiety thing is garbage. There are a million and one. If you went to any therapist, there are a million one grounding techniques that have nothing to do with the other person. Because what's he. What if he's alone on the red carpet? What does he do there? Like, he has to figure out other coping techniques. If that literally is his excuse. He's groping female stars. So as. Come on, man. I mean, if anything, he appears as a sex addict is really what it is, which is. I mean, this is a. In the DSM for a reason. Like, it is a violation, in my opinion of the other person. Whether they allow it or not, it's a violation. And he's hiding behind therapy terms. Weaponizing therapy culture. We've talked about that plenty. And so as soon as he says, I have anxiety, all of a sudden, everybody turns their brains off and goes, oh, we should allow it to happen.
Correct? Absolutely not. There are a million one grounding techniques. The other thing is, you are a multimillionaire. Get therapy that works you through your anxiety. Okay, so let's. Let's stop pretending that this is a legitimate coping technique.
[01:01:10] Speaker A: Yeah, the anxiety, like, man, the people that I follow on X are just having a field day with that. Like, just kind of making fun of the guy. But yeah, Jack, the. The transgender thing that you bring up is interesting. The Kind of the way that people's morals get just kind of twisted and. And perverted, you know, especially if somebody who's kind of in favor of those things and yet again, kind of can't seem to stop putting his hands on female co stars. The two thoughts that I have. One is, are we really all that surprised? I mean, this is Hollywood, after all. Like, I think everybody's eyes go to that. And, you know, again, to call back to the Vince bowling episode. Like, that's all that we're seeing in public. There's, you know, of course, all kinds of infidelity, all kinds of, you know, sexual activity that goes on the other kind of non.
This is probably not where your mind was going with this, Jack, but where it goes for me with my kids is teaching my sons the appropriate level of physical contact with females. They're specifically not your wife. I think that is a very important thing to. To teach your specifically young men, again, even when they're not married, teenagers, whatever. Like, there is. There's etiquette. It's like there's etiquette on a golf course, right? You don't walk in somebody's line, you don't. You don't talk in their backswing. You don't leave the tee box for everybody's off.
That's a sport thing. There is etiquette and certain appropriate boundaries that young men need to have with other females that specifically involve pretty much never putting their hands on them. You know, the side hug thing, you know, never doing the frontal hugs. And I don't know, again, Jack, that's probably not the angle you were wanting to take with this, but that's where my mind went to is like, the way that I want to teach my son. When you're around other females, specifically when you are married and around other females in public or whatever, like, there. There are just certain etiquette guidelines and boundaries that Joe May, we need to do an episode on in our other podcast about. But, like, yeah, that's kind of. That was kind of where mine. Mine went. Jack, I'm curious your thoughts.
[01:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah, the. Why I brought up the trans thing is the LGBT ally thing. When somebody says, I'm an ally, start, like, checking their hard drive. They're a creep. I mean, like, because that gives these people cover. Like, oh, I could never meet to a woman. Because, look, I'm. No, no, no. He's a big feminist. He's all these things. Like, and so you think he's hiding behind the feminist, you know, male feminist thing? He's hiding behind the LGBT ally thing. He's hiding behind the anxiety thing. All of these things this culture has given us is like, see, look, of course I'm a good guy. Like, none of those make you a good guy.
And. And so many times how, like, it comes out that the people who are the most vocal about this stuff are utter creeps. And I, you know, like, with. With something like this, it's like, man, if you're doing that in public, I don't want to know. Like, I mean, there should be justice if there's something going. I'm not making. I. I can't. I'm not saying what he's doing, but I'm saying this is a creepy person.
And yet our twisted morality of our culture of, like, man, he has checked all the boxes to say, look, I'm. I'm the best kind of person. Like, that kind of thing starting to crumble, people are starting to see through. And I think it's good. I think those things are red flags big time. And. And he's bringing one of those to light. But, yeah, those.
Glad we all kind of had different angles to take on a little bit.
Will's absolutely right. Like, this is a great what not to do kind of example.
But any other thoughts as we wrap here?
All right, as always, this is the end of the Think Fast. So if you're catching the Think Fast, tune in for the Think Deeper on Monday. About 7 acceptable, quote unquote sins to avoid.
And if you're listening to the end of the podcast, we thank you for listening. Leave your comments. If you have things to add to the list, we'd appreciate it. Or if you have thoughts on the Pedro Pascal controversy, we'd love to hear it as well here in the YouTube comments or on our Facebook page, wherever you may find us. And we will talk to you guys on the next one.
Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.
