[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here with Will Harab and Joe Wilkie once again. And we've got a little bit of news for you guys. So don't. I know I'm one of those who skips the, the rambling at the start of the episode, but this I think is rather a little bit different, maybe a little more important than sometimes. And we're just letting you guys know for the first time Since January of 2022, we are going to go on a bit of a break. We have not been a seasonal podcast. We have been every single Monday since the first Monday of January 2022. We're going to take two to four week break. There's some, some big things going on in personal lives. Will has another child on the way and Joe's got some work stuff going on, just usual stuff. We decided we'd take a break for a bit and so just a heads up to let you know about that. We're gonna, we're talking about some format changes, but the plan is to be back here in a few weeks after this episode, back weekly. We might change the day of the week. That might be part of it as well. We're gonna kind of retool some of that. But I think this is almost 170 episodes in and so I think we're, we're entitled to a little bit of, a little bit of a break. What do you, what do you guys think?
[00:01:19] Speaker C: Just a tab. And not too long. Of course not too long. We want to bring great content to you guys. As you said, we are discussing format changes. We just want to make sure it's relevant. When you recorded 170 episodes on. We don't have a ton of guests on. That's how the Joe Rogans and such stay relevant and continue to pump out content is they have guests every single day. We do not. And so it's 170 different topics. You start getting a little thin on the topics, people start not caring quite as much about the bigger topics. We want to make sure we continue to bring good content that helps the church, that, that makes us think deeper. That's really the point of this podcast. And so we're going to do some thinking on that. We're also going to be doing some more. We're going to take the month, two weeks, month, whatever it is. And we are going to put a lot of research into a few episodes that have been on the back burner for a little while. Just because we haven't had time to research and get to them. So we have some of that stuff coming out. But Will, anything you'd add?
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I would just say this was a tough decision for us. This was something that breaking the street to break the streak was, you know, is not something any of us wanted to do. Again, Since January of 2022, it has been every single Monday that we have put an episode out. I've missed one or two, Joe's missed one or two. Jack has got his perfect streak that will now be broken. But yeah, I just want to say I appreciate everybody who does regularly listen and just know that this is not, this will not be the last episode of all time. We will, we will be back here shortly. Just wanted, wanted a bit of a reset to be honest and just kind of reevaluate how do we want the show or what do we want the show to look like. What more short form stuff? We got a lot of things that we're, that we're looking at. And so we appreciate very much all of you who listen every single week and we would just encourage you to be patient with us. And we'll be back shortly is what I would say. So. But not before we give you one more hopefully excellent episode for you to enjoy.
I don't know who's introing it, Jack, if you want to take it back over and kind of share what we're, what we're covering this week.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Sure. And just before that, we, we are going to keep content rolling on Focus, plus obviously the other things. Gym, podcast, church, reset, podcast, my site, things like that will still be rolling. So definitely stay plugged into FocusPress.
I've told you before, focuspress.org just go to the email list there. That will get you every week we'll send out everything we're doing. So keep an eye out on that if you're not already on that email list and of course my own email
[email protected]. so yeah, stay, stay plugged in. You won't be getting these every Monday on your feed for a couple weeks, but make sure you're on the email list at the very least. All right, so this week to go kind of into the break, we are cross examining ourselves. The Think Deeper takes some of the controversies, but especially it's come to our attention a couple times lately we might have been misunderstood on some points. There might be a perception out there, oh, these guys think X, Y or Z about such and such topic things that we don't want people to think we believe those things, things that we Want to clarify where we stand on those others.
We might double down and say, no, this is exactly what we think. And so it's kind of a going to be different things for different takes. But again, 170 episodes, three plus years of content. There's been some things that have again come across the wrong way or been taken the wrong way or perception that's out there, things that the longtime thing deepers are well familiar with these takes and we want to make sure, well, we're leaving them in a place that everyone understands things as we want them to understand them.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: And I would just say I do think part of that is because typically when that happens, we are reacting to what we perceive to be a terrible take on the other side. Yeah. So we will swing it the other way. And in many cases, you know, we as we'll get to. We are not going to back down from that. But I think sometimes in the Swinging the Pendulum back there is a view of like, oh, wow, so you're completely anti, you know, xyz whatever is. We're about to cover some of these and yeah, just clarification, I guess on some of these and some of these, as Jax just spoke to Will look back and say, yeah, don't. Don't have a lot of things to clarify there. We were pretty straightforward. But I would just say I do think that might be part of it as well is typically when you are trying to, you know, argue with or react to something that you view as a severely negative or a just a bad opinion, a bad take again, you can sometimes go a little bit too far in the other direction or it can be taken too far in the other direction just because you're trying to compensate for the bad take on the other side. So yeah, that would be where I would say that maybe some of these have landed.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So without that, I think unless there's anything else we want to get into, we want to jump into the first one.
I think we have seven on our list. Yeah, seven things that we want to clarify that we're reexamining, that we are, as you said, we may double down on it and say, no, we still very much agree with that. There's a reason we swung the pendulum to the other side and then there's others where it's like, okay, that swung a little too far. The first one is a broad ranging. This is a topic we've covered probably more than most other topics that we have on this list and that is that we are chauvinists. We have Talked a lot about masculinity, femininity.
Yeah. I mean, and the reality is there's not a lot of other church Christ podcasts that are discussing these things, that are discussing the positivities of patriarchy and masculinity. They might pay lip service to it to a certain degree. We have a lot of content, whether that be the godly I'm in podcast. Right, Jim. Jim podcast, or all of the episodes we've done on this. We've done a significant amount and Jack's done some great writing on this. We've done a significant amount on this particular topic of femininity and masculinity and what we think the roles are. And because we come out and we're pretty staunch on. We do believe women should be workers, keepers at home, which is just biblical. That's Titus 2. Um, we do believe that women should remain silent in church, which is biblical. That's 1 Timothy 2. And as you get into 1 Corinthians, so 1st Corinthians 14. I can't remember the verse, but 1 Corinthians 14.
Yeah. I think the people on the progressive end are going to naturally go, well, you're trying to silence women. Most of our listeners are not going to see us as silencing women. But then we will have further content surrounding homeschooling, surrounding, once again, roles within the home. Roles within the home. We are anti women going to. Going to college and chasing the big career field and everything else. And so we are seen, I think, as chauvinists, as though we think women are lesser or that we are just keeping our wives barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen all the time. I think there are those that have that perception of us and that we kind of keep our wives under our thumb. So to that, I think I've spelled out the point and maybe the problem. Fellas, what are your thoughts on that and what might you say to the detractors or to the people that think we are way too hard on women and, you know, maybe like our poor wives, basically. What would you say to that?
[00:07:54] Speaker B: I've tried to make the disclaimers, but sometimes I realize that when you are kind of trying to shift the window, reset the paradigm that you need to be like, as clear as possible, make the disclaimers as often as. As you need so people know we're not going from ditch to ditch. We talk about ditches all the time. And that is a real thing. And one of the things I remember saying was the last thing I want is somebody Listening to this on the way home from work, go, you know, stomp in the house and say, all right, honey, I was listening to this podcast and they told me I need to leave the home. So you're gonna start.
Doesn't work that way like that. That is a really good way to, to set your wife astray. There's the age old debates, you know, that go on, on online a lot of times about, you know, men doing the dishes. I do a lot of dishes, you know, a lot of like changing diapers, things like that. You know, like there's, there are the roles in the home, but it doesn't mean I don't help. That doesn't mean like that's. I remember, in fact, there was a guy I went to church with years ago, a couple I went to church with, and we were having our first daughter and they pulled my wife aside and said, now I know you guys, you know, have some pretty traditional roles about, you know, men and women, but, you know, Jack needs to help with this baby. He needs to help, you know, change her and, you know, get addressed and things like that. And like, duh, like, yeah, what do you think I believe? And that it's, it's in moments like that you realize I need to be abundantly clear about what I don't mean. And what I do not mean is, all right, he works all day, go home, kick up your feet, and she's taking care of the rest.
Situation by situation is going to be different as to how many times a guy does the dishes or takes out the different chores around the house, changes diapers or whatever. But it's not a, yeah, we don't do that kind of thing. And so I think that's male leadership involves doing that sometimes, but still having the roles to divide it as they're supposed to be and things like that. And so it's because we can't speak to every couple that's ever been married about what percentage and what that should look like for you. The general principles are out there. And I think some people take the general principles and just overdo them well.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: So there is that. I think that's a very, very needed point. And I feel like anytime that this discussion comes up, what I see a lot is that when we're in a culture of heavy feminism, of even in a church culture of men, you know, husbands are the butt of the jokes typically and kind of, you know, you know, beside every man is a good woman pushing him, you know, pushing him along, like, stuff like that.
What I would Say, is that any kind of. Kind of resetting of that or realigning of, you know, hey, let's rethink girls going to college, or, hey, you know, there's not a lot of upside in the women going out to work.
Those things are seen as chauvinists because of the culture that we're in. And so that would be. What I would say is that it's very easy to. Because of the way that we have kind of been brainwashed, we've been indoctrinated. Name your favorite celebrity or, you know, whatever, who, you know, girl power, the MeToo movement, all those things.
Us getting on a podcast and saying, hey, we think it is, you know, biblically, you know, best practice for the wife to stay home for homeschooling. Uh, we think it is biblically best practice for, you know, to make sure that the husband is the one being the main breadwinner, that, you know, girls maybe don't go pursue college. That is going to get looked at as chauvinist by a lot of people. And so, Jack, I think your point is very well taken about kind of the stances that we've taken and need to qualify ourselves. But that would be what I. That would be my kind of, I guess, defense of our position. I don't know. None of us have come out and, you know, said that we're chauvinist or anything like that, but is that. Yes, it can look chauvinist when you're the entire culture. And I'm going to say it again, church culture has really, really watered down the idea of, you know, roles within the home, husbands being the spiritual leader and, you know, wives being, you know, submissive. Help meets. And yes, we pay lip service to it. But if you were to ask your average churchgoer, what does that mean? It's like, you know, just acknowledge it, I guess, you know, and that's pretty much all the pulpits do as well. And so that would be my contribution to this point, is that, yes, it will look chauvinist based on the. The way that. The kind of the. The Overton window, as you might say, like the way that the culture has got it set right now, saying those things about college or. Or roles within the home or who's got the final vote type of thing. Yes, that looks chauvinist. Our contention would be that's. That's not chauvinist, that's biblical. Joe. Looks like.
[00:12:14] Speaker C: Well, and I'm glad you. Yeah, I'm glad you brought in the roles point because look, we're just as hard on the guys. I look at it like it is really difficult to be a man and do it well, do it biblically. I fail in a lot of different areas. Like, we're called to an incredibly high standard. You will be called to account for how you lead your family spiritually. You are in charge of leading your kids spiritually and helping your wife with the discipline. And, you know, that's. That's why it talks about fathers. Don't provoke your children to wrath. And. And the discipline structure that comes into place, and living with your wife in an understanding way and knowing how to manage some of her emotions, you know, when she's really having a difficult day, but also making sure that you're not just Mr. Stoic and you never show emotion. And so you end up, you know, kind of having this distance from your wife. That's not right either. Like, we are just as hard on guys. People just don't hear that as much. Because to your point, Will, we're used to getting the Father's Day sermons. We're used to getting the, hey, guys, you need to step up sermons. We're not as used to the female side, and so it stands in stark contrast when we go, hey, females also need to step up. We are calling both sides to an insanely high standard, which I think is the biblical standard. There's a reason God designed it the way that he designed it, and there's a reason why we believe women should be keepers at home. Because first off, it's biblical. But second off, there's a lot to that role. And we thank our wives every single day. You know, I think about how much my wife accomplishes every single day. Like, I could never do what I do without my wife, and she could never do what she does without me. And that's why we always say, like, you know, the guys, I'm just so lucky to have my wife. Boy, I'm like, yeah, I'm incredibly lucky to have my wife. Incredibly blessed, and vice versa. She's incredibly blessed to have me. I go, whoa, that seems off. Like, why would it not be that way? I. I think I'm blessed, and I think she's blessed. And together, as a blessed couple, we try to do great things for God and great things for our kids and such. So it's just we are calling both sides to a high standard. Please don't misunderstand us in hearing that. You know, we think men need to rule with an iron fist or anything else. I think men need to be Incredibly understanding with their wives and they are called to the highest standard in the home, in my opinion. But yes, we are allowed to call women to a standard that is not very common in today's culture. Because once again, we're getting back to the biblical standard here. I don't think that makes a chauvinist.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: One last thing I'll say and then Jack, hand it back to you in light of everything I just said, kind of similarly, a husband making a firm decision for his household or stepping up and leading or calling his kids out, calling his wife out, that is not chauvinist either. Obviously, if it's done in a, you know, in an abrasive way, if it's done kind of dictatorial style and you know, as Jack already spoke to, like, I don't care what you say, you're gonna listen to me. Yes, that's problematic. But once again, just making a decision or saying, well, this is the direction we're going to go with our family OR no, honey, 16 year old daughter, you're not going to be wearing that out outside or you know, honey, I really, you know, this is the decision we're going to make. We're going to homeschool our kid. Like whatever it is, that's not chauvinist. And yet that's what lot of people, that's where their brains will run to is, you know, a husband stepping up and leading or making a decision is chauvinist. And that's just, that's just not true.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah, everything looks like an overcorrection to those who are correct. Too far to one side. So closely related to this is the servant leadership discussion and don't want to embarrass anybody but very close friend, listener, member of our church, very faithful, deep thinker.
Submitted a comment about our hymns episode a couple weeks ago about what do you guys think of the song Make Me a Servant? Because you're. Since you're against servant leadership and I.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Had somebody, I had somebody else that I'm close to basically make that same joke. Like really don't, you know? Yeah, basically like servant leadership got brought up and he elbowed me like, oh, what do you think of that type of thing?
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Right?
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: And I don't, Yeah, I don't know how much like of a. Of ribbing it is, but it's kind of one of those. Okay, maybe, maybe we need to clarify where we stand on that. Absolutely. I would sing Make Me a Servant because we all do want to be servants.
The problem with servant leadership is neither Service nor leadership. It is that. That term is incredibly loaded. And this in itself is a really important point, is that you can't take things on face value anymore. You know. Oh, I had somebody arguing with me about this recently. What, you're against serving? No, I'm not against serving. I'm against what this concept has come to mean, which is be a yes man, be a nice guy. Be a guy who just does what everybody wants you to kind of fill, just keep everybody happy, all of those things. That's what servant leadership means. I'm against that. That's not leadership. And you have the scriptures on that of the greatest among you will be your servant. And Jesus talking about in Mark 10, about that he came to lay down his life as a ransom for many, and that we're following in those footsteps. Absolutely, all of those things. But that was serving on his way as part of his leadership, as part of the greatness that he was embodying. Not just service to its own end, like it was part. To be a great leader, you need to serve, but just serving does not make you a great leader, I guess would be the way I'd put that.
[00:17:12] Speaker C: I think I made this point on the deep end when we were discussing that really the distinction comes down to the servant who's a leader or the leader who is a servant. And I really do think that that's what we're pushing for is the leader who's a servant, the guy who is clearly the leader, who's clearly in charge. Clearly. And that's Jesus. Like, why are you washing my feet? That comes from a place of like, you shouldn't be serving us. And he's showing them, yes, the leader, the greatest among you can serve and should serve. And we are not against that in the least. We think that's a great thing. But if Jesus came and all he did is ever, you know, all he ever did was wash feet and he was the servant, what would happen when he stepped up with authority? Sorry, who. Who are you? Like, don't you wash the feet? Aren't you guys. Aren't you in the back with the horses, stables type of thing? Like. No, this guy's.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: The reason John 13 was significant. Is correct.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yes. Is because they were shocked that he would do it. But he would. Did he did it?
[00:18:04] Speaker C: Yeah, but he did it. And that's our point, is you have to be able to command respect. You have to be the leader. And in doing that, that's what makes service so powerful. As you go to show we're not above service. Service is incredibly important. But we're saying make sure you're the leader as well, instead of trying to lead from the back where nobody takes you seriously.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Well, when somebody says, you know, oh, you guys are against servant leadership, we're against. And as you guys have both spoke this already, but what we're against is the he gets us version of servant leadership, essentially what servant leadership has been turned into. And we talked about the he gets us commercials. But, you know, I think it was the one two years ago where, you know, had all these people washing feet and, you know, most of them were like minority and, you know, somebody outside of an abortion clinic, stuff like that. And the tagline was, well, Jesus didn't teach hate. Jesus washed feet. And that is what we rail against when it comes to servant leadership. Basically the idea that you're not going to say what needs to be said, you're not going to take the stands that need to be taken on abortion or homosexuality or whatever. You're just going to wash feet because you're a servant leader. That's what we're railing against. And to Jack's point earlier, you can, somebody can straw man and say, oh, you guys are anti serving. No, we're not anti serving. Oh, you guys are anti leaders being, you know, who, who serve. Not at all. As Joe just spoke to as well, what we're against is the kind of reshaping of the term, the way the term has been taken and abused to where once again, people can look at the he gets us commercials, just that's the main example on my mind, and then go, man, isn't that great? Isn't that fantastic? And it's such a misrepresentation of the type of leader Jesus was. It's such a misrepresentation of the leaders that we as men are called to be. And that's, that's what's frustrating. And you know, again, because it's such a popular term and we kind of take a baseball bat to it regularly, you can do. You can see how people get to the conclusion like, oh, you guys are anti servant leadership. Again, from the, from the comments that have been made toward us. And that's what I would say is, yes, we are against kind of the, the current, current structure definition of, you know, the way the world uses it. We are. But overall, as a, you know, concept in a vacuum, we're not, is the way that I would put that.
[00:20:07] Speaker C: Well, Jack, and as you said, this is closely tied to the last one, which is our willingness to get in and change diapers and to help with the dishes and to vacuum the house or sweep, you know, like, there are certain things that will absolutely step in and do that doesn't mean that that's my sole job in the home. You know, I'm just the servant who does all these things. Like, no, I'm the leader of the home who recognizes my wife needs a break, she needs help. She needs to get off her feet for a second. She's been chasing kids around, four kids around all day. It's exhausting. Like, let me step in and help. That's what we're talking about. And at no point did I give up my leadership of the home. That is part of being a leader is stepping in and serving where necessary, where needed. But if I was just the maid and then I decided to step up and say, honey, I think we need to do this, you know, whatever it is. I don't call my wife honey. But just, you know, for the sake of the illustration, like, if that's what I said, we need to go this direction. And all she saw me as was the guy who helps around the house, the manny, so to speak, you know, the man nanny that's coming into popularity so much. If that's how I am most of the time, then I'm going to command no respect in my home. And anytime that the decision, the buck stops me, it's going to stop with me because God says so. But it's going to be really, really difficult for her to take me seriously if that's all I'm ever doing. So I think that's how these two things are tied together and why you made a really good point on that. We're not anti service in our own home. We're not anti service in the church. We need to step in and help where possible. We just don't want to denigrate ourselves to do it. So any other thoughts on that, Jack, before we get into the third one?
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah, Aaron Ren was the first one to kind of raise the alarm on this. There's a really good article he had on it just against servant leadership. And he does a really good job laying out the difference and quoting evangelicals, Russell Moore, Tim Keller, people like that of how this came to be. And again, people do that. Well, it's servant leadership. You got to want your leaders to serve. Yes, but don't get caught up in the definition game. And I wrote recently an article called Progressive Love Isn't Love. And the main point is you can say you're being loving, you can make things sound really good. But look at the fruits of it and the fruits of guys being told, hey, just happy wife, happy life. All those things we've talked about so many times, the fruits are disastrous. The fruit of a guy doing the kind of thing we're talking about is a happy wife, is happy children, is a happy, you know, is a flourishing church, things like that. And so think about not what's going to keep people happy in the moment, but what is best for them. That's true love. That's. That's what we're angling for here with this one.
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[00:23:17] Speaker A: All right, Jack, you want to get us in the next one?
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So because we talk about how we can do things better, do things differently, I think there sometimes is a view that we, and not just us, this kind of applies to a whole lot of people that talk in these ways that we're change agents, we're trying to bring things into the church, we're trying to water things down. We're trying to take the church progressively or whatever else.
I think we like to think in categories of progressive or conservative. And if you had to make me choose between those two, it's like, obviously conservative. I mean, that's absolutely. But I don't think those boxes are helpful because it makes you, like, you have to just toe the party line on everything. And if you disagree with one thing, oh, you're trying to lead us toward the other way. And I get that because that's happened a lot of times. There's a lot of people that did the. Just asking questions all the way off the deep end, I get that. On the other hand, saying, hey, you know, are we sure that we have to, you know, take the collection during the invitation? Yeah, extend the invitation. There you go. Extend the invitation at the end of every sermon. That's not trying to change agent. That's not trying to make the church progressive. That's asking where's the biblical proof on that and is there a better way to do the general thing that we're trying to do here and things like that. And because again, because so much has been brought in bad under the guise of just asking questions, I get why people's sensors are up toward that kind of thing, but that doesn't mean that everybody who asks a question is trying to pull something. And I think that's something that we, we miss.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Well, I think this conversation typically, or this, I guess accusation, you might say typically comes up when we are discussing church practices invitation. This was kind of a big one. You brought up contribution, things like that, that. Listen, all, all that we are, that we claim, now I'm not trying to speak for you guys, but all that we claim to try to do is when it comes to our worship practices, constantly go back to the Bible and say, is this the best use of this according to the Bible? We did the same thing with the sermon as well. Like is a 45 minute sermon, is Sunday night worship. All those things. Like, does that most closely align with the Bible and is it the most useful method, most useful outlet for in the case of the invitation, which was again for oddly the most controversial one of these.
It's not really biblical and it doesn't have a lot of use. And that's all that we were, we were looking to bring up, looking to discuss.
And I would, Joe, I know you preached a, or taught a class or preached a lesson one time about, hey, what about, you know, the idea of the Lord's supper being a little bit more than just a, a, you know, stale cracker and a half of a sip of grape juice. Seems like the early church was doing a little bit more than just that. And you know, again, everybody's antenna went up like, whoa, whoa. So you're saying we need to like have a feast and, and you know, get, get full off of this meal. It's like all Joe was doing was asking, okay, what, let's go back to the early, you know, to the Bible first of all, but then to the, you know, kind of the back to the source, so to speak and say does is this what most closely aligns is, is Taking a, a stale cracker and a half of a sip of grape juice and spending four minutes on the Lord's Supper, the most biblically aligned we can be on the Lord's Supper. Our conclusion is that it's not. But again, somebody would, would hear us ask those questions, whether it be for that contribution, invitation all these things and say, whoa, whoa, you guys are trying to bring some stuff in. And once again, as Jack said, the just asking questions things can, can go too far and can be a guise for just trying to stir stuff up. In this case, we legitimately are trying to just ask, is this the closest we can get to the Bible in the New Testament Church? So, yeah, those are my thoughts. Joe, what, what do you have to add?
[00:27:03] Speaker C: Yeah, not much. Not much to add. I think you had a. You guys both made very good points on specifically the foundation that we come back to the struggle with the change agents and the Jack, as you said, the people that really do go off the deep end is what is the foundation for the, the question is it we want to stay relevant. We want to have more people come into the church. We want to, we're reexamining women's roles, things like that. Well, why would you re. Examine that seems pretty clear to me. I don't know. It's okay to ask why and then go, yeah, let's. What does the Bible say? We go back to the Bible because that's the foundation rather than man. You know, I got a couple wives here at the church that are real upset that they can't get a couple ones. You know, whatever it is, he really.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Is a change agent.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: We got more to cross examine than I thought here.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: We're having. Our next episode's on Mormonism, guys. We'll, we'll get into it then.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Joe's leading discussion.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I'll let my wives lead the discussion while we're asking questions. No, but you know, like you got a couple, couple of people, a couple of women in the congregation that are just wives of sometimes even elders or whatever that they're just real upset by X, Y, Z. And I think we just need to know that's not a legitimate reason to ask why and to question things. The foundation and Will, you spoke to that point. Well, and so I'll, I'll shut up. But the foundation has to be what does God want? What's going to glorify God the most? What brings us back to the Bible when we think deeper on things? I have no problem with people asking why that's one of my big mantras, is we need to know why. It's never wrong to ask why, but why are we asking the question in asking, you know, why are we asking why, if it's to do anything other than what is the best way to glorify God, and that's really the basis, the foundation for it, then we're off.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Well, and I think to that point, just last thing is there, there's an importance to every single topic that you are asked about or, you know, verse in the Bible or whatever, if your answer is just kind of what's been fed to you your entire life, or is the answer that you can find on, you know, the GB and YouTube page and there's like, you clearly haven't really thought about it a ton.
I'm sorry, like, there's a bit of a. I, I will. I take your opinion a little bit less seriously in the same way that if you're, if your opinion on everything is the kind of contrarian opinion and you are trying to, you know, everything, you know, the most basic stuff, you're like, well, have you thought about this? And you know, you're trying to throw out all these contrarian opinions, I'm also going to take you somewhat less seriously. There's nuance to this and I do feel like if you are somebody who, for any of these things, worship practices, again, even, you know, maybe controversial stuff within the Church of Christ, if your answer is just kind of what's been fed to you or what you think the right answer is supposed to be, and you can tell there's not really a lot of original thought there. I'm sorry, like, I'm going to take your opinion a little bit less seriously. Again, same thing on the other side. And so that's what I would say is that we need to have. To your point, Joe, we need to have a why. And the why does not need to be. Well, it's kind of what I was always told. No, you need study for yourself. Look into it for yourself, and you might come to the exact same conclusion that you've been told from others. Great, but at least you got there based on your study and your own personal deep dive into it, as opposed to, well, you know, this, this guy believes that. So that's what I'm going to believe. So that, that would be my other thought on that.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, at the heart and with so many of these things, like we're all trying to do better like that, that should be the main thing is we want to be most pleasing to God. As, as you know, Paul says in Ephesians, I believe, you know, of just that's our aim in everything is. And so when you ask a question of like, well, is there a way to be more pleasing to God? It's not, I'm trying to get around the scriptures. It's what's more pleasing to God. And as you're saying, Will, like we all should welcome that kind of discussion. Not well, nope, this has been settled once for all. I saw a thing one time and that, that's over. Like let's, let's talk, you know, and that's, that's kind of the challenge of thing deeper is just some people aren't ready to talk and that's okay. But don't assume we're, we're trying to pull something just because somebody's saying something a little bit differently than you might say it. Even if it's not, you know, I don't know, it just not every disagreement, not every shift is a trying to pull something, I guess is kind of the main thing. But along with that is the critique. And I've seen some Facebook posts going around and I know, I'm not trying to say everything's about us because there's other people who talk the way we do. We're not the only ones saying this. But, you know, it applies to us of some people are just so negative about the church. They're so negative about what all the church is doing wrong. And the church is so divisive. Well, we're going to die out. And yeah, they're always trying to push their own way. And so they're, they're dividing people and you know, they're, they're just trying to tear down what we've got so they can build their own thing. And I, I, I could see why somebody would see that. I'll grant them that, that it's going to look like if you feel like you've got it all right, and somebody comes along saying, no, we're not, like that's got to change. Yeah, everyone gets defensive in that situation. It's got to be threatened. I just want people to be realistic. Like it breaks my heart having been in numerous church buildings knowing if things continue without a major change in 10 to 20 years, this group of Christians will not be meeting here anymore. They're going to have to go somewhere else. Some of them will have to be driving an hour, one way to find a group of Christians that's not good. And so to talk about that and say, yeah, I know you saw a bunch of kids at that one camp and that made you think everything was great. That doesn't solve this problem. That doesn't make me negative.
Pessimism, optimism, realism and realism in a time when things aren't going great is going to look like pessimism. But you've got to accept the problem for what it is.
[00:32:36] Speaker C: Pessimism. It really comes, it's rooted in like, we kind of don't want to get our hopes up. And it's the, oh man, everything's always horrible. Like, we are the first to admit there are some things that we do very well within the church that we would stand solidly on. And we think that we not trying. And the other thing is, well, you just, you hate the body of Christ, you know, you hate the bride of Christ.
No, we don't. We are saying that us as flawed human beings do not get it right all the time. And I think we can. That includes me. We do not get it right all the time. And I happen to be part of the bride of Christ. Yes. Therefore, I'm not critiquing the conceptual idea of the bride of Christ. I'm critiquing the way that we are acting, which is the same thing. We could look at the, the apostle John in Revelation and go, wow, you know, these letters that John is telling from Jesus himself, those seem pretty negative. I don't know, John, are you against the bride of Christ? Like, I don't know, it's Jesus saying it. I don't think he's against critiquing them, saying, you guys got some serious issues here.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: He literally says, I have a few things against you is what he says, I'm not Jesus.
[00:33:41] Speaker C: But I think we can look at it and go, there are some things that aren't working. Just because the church is thriving in India or the church is thriving in at PTP doesn't mean that the little, you know, the, the small church in Kansas, as Jack said, is not going to be gone in a decade. And what are those people going to do? What are the younger people of the congregation? And by younger, usually 50, 60, because there's hardly any kids our age. And that's another thing. Well, you guys are divisive. You guys are. You're so negative to the older generation. Like, yeah, I'm looking around going, where's everybody my age? Where's all the 30 year olds? Where's all the 40 year olds in the congregation? We lost them. And we point that out and go, hey, maybe we could have done something better. Oh, you guys are so negative all the time and you just hate the older generation. Like, we don't hate them. We have a really difficult time in the fact that you didn't keep anybody here and these churches are going to die off. And when we point at that and we point to. To some of the struggles that we're noticing around the nation, especially as. Jack, you've spoken a lot around the Nation, obviously, Brad, doctor, Dr. Brad Harab. Does we get to see this on a firsthand basis of the devastation that's taking place around the country churchwide. We're not negative for pointing that out. So can we be a little negative? Yes, I do think we can be a little negative from time to time. No doubt. Is that divisive? We're not intentionally divisive, but we're also. There's a war on noticing. We are going to notice. And just because you don't want us noticing doesn't mean I'm not going to notice that things aren't great. And just because there's a bazillion of one. Churches sprouting up in India does nothing for my kids. Does nothing for where my son's going to go to church. You know, my kids are going to go to church here in 20 years.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: I want to say one other thing to that. Well, two other things, actually.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: The first is, y'all gotta save me some content here. I'm just kidding.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. You go ahead.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: You go first.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Well, my thing is it's very popular to be very down on Christians, kind of on the average churchgoer. You know, the. Well, Philip Yancey told the story of an alcoholic who went to church. And, you know, when he goes to church, everyone turns and judges him for walking in late. But at the Alcoholics Anonymous, they're just happy he made it. And, you know, church people just so judgmental. And these things go viral every few months about how judgmental Christians are and people always apologizing for Christians. I hate that. We vocally defended. The average churchgoer is a very good person. Our critiques are mostly of preachers and elders for letting this slide.
[00:35:52] Speaker A: Church leadership, right?
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Crying peace, peace when there's no peace, as the prophet said. For just. They're the ones that always say, well, these guys are always being negative, talking about how bad things are in the church. But I saw a lot of kids at camp this weekend, like, I'm sorry.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Yeah, 80% of those kids will be walking away from the faith.
[00:36:08] Speaker B: Right. I Mean, we had a bunch of kids at the camp 10 years ago, and yet our churches don't have those kids anymore. What's going on like, though? And so it's funny that you critique Christians all the time and it's amen. You know, Christians are just mean people. You critique preachers and like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're so negative. Like, no, we have sheep without a shepherd, and that's our problem here. That's what we want to critique. So that was the one of two. But you go ahead. I need to think about what my second one was. I got a little bit ranting there. Go ahead.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Well, that is, I think that's a very, very much needed point. But I was just thinking, I, I don't, I certainly don't think it's a one for one comparison. The church is not a business. The church is not an organization. But you look across any industry, and I do mean any industry, the industry that I'm in currently.
This is something that we've struggled with a good bit when looking at metrics and things. If you spend all your time, kind of pat yourself on the back for all the, the things that are going well, all your scores that are in the green, all that, and you're like, okay, yeah, you know, we got some red over here, got some, some stuff we're not doing well. But hey, let's not worry about that. Let's just focus on the good. That's not how things work. Again, look across any industry, you might have a celebration for the stuff that goes well, but the focus is, how can we get better? How can we take the red and turn it green? How can we improve this metric? How can we do all those things? And is that not the same job that we had? Because this is something else that I used to, I remember vividly being a teenager and being very frustrated with my parents because I felt like, similar, similar thing. You guys are always pointing out the negative. Can you appreciate how good of a kid I am, how I'm not out, you know, smoking weed and doing all these things? Like you're always bringing up things. And my parents made the point. Yeah, our job is to chisel you, chisel away those, those negative character traits, chisel away the bad attitude, whatever it is, consistently until you reach this certain point. And even for us as individual Christians, our goal is to be more, more Christlike. Our goal is to look at our, ourselves, with our lives and say, how can I improve? How can I get more of those bad habits, get further away from them? How Can I, how can I be kinder to people? How can I again, drop this bad hat, whatever it is. And for us to. Which is, I feel like what we do for the church is we look at the things that we're not doing well. And to Joe's point, maybe this is where we need to spend a little bit more time talking about what the church does, doing well, I'll grant somebody that point. But for us to look at it and say, hey, guys, just want to again, war on noticing. I just want to point out that for the last 30 years, young people aren't able to stay faithful.
Can we do something about that? And for everybody to say, wow, that sure is negative. Like, no, that is pointing out the area that we are, that we are flailing at. We are completely, completely failing, struggling, flailing about in the water on. And there's a lot of those weak elderships, weak homes, weak families. Like, these are the things that we're going to point out because they're so crucial to the overall goal, which is for the church to, to flourish, the church to grow, for, for more Christian families to be created. That's not happening. So, yes, we're going to point those things out. And again, that's just what, like, take that same logic and apply it to any industry. You know, the, the one red category. Wow, how dare you point that out. No, that's our job. That's what we're supposed to do. And particularly, last thought, particularly when the main category that you could say we're quote, unquote, red in, in the church is keeping our young people faithful. Yeah, we're going to, we're going to point those things out and we're going to challenge and question church leadership, challenge the, the older generations with how they parented and say, hey, think you missed the mark on some of this stuff. That's not negative, that's not divisive. That's. That's pointing out what needs to be pointed out is kind of our take.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah, great point. And to add on to your organizational thing, the best sports coaches, the championships, the Bella success, they are the ones that when, if they win a game, but they did it kind of by luck and it just, it wasn't. They didn't play well. They don't go, all right, we won. They, their press conferences, they go, yeah, we won. If we play like that again, we're.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: A lot of clean, a lot of cleaning up to do.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Not, you know, the guys that will just take every crumb they can get. They're the ones that don't win, there's the ones that don't succeed. And so yeah, looking on the other hand, I will to the point that's been already acknowledged. If you get on every week and hear about, hey, here's what we're doing wrong and how we can be better, I can see how that'd be grading, you know, and I'm sure I've tried to work on that with the writing. You know, the art of the Critique articles get 4 times the readership of the pat on the back articles. And so people go, oh, you're negative. Like, well, you just didn't read it when I was positive. So there is some of that. But on the other hand, the kind of people who would tune in for an hour a week and to listen to us, to listen to other things, to people talk about how to get better, as a Christian, you're on the right track. You're doing a lot of things right. And I think that's a pat on the back. We need to give more frequently is we appreciate you guys. We love, you know, everywhere we go we meet deep thinkers, people listen to Jim people, you know, supporters, things like that. There's just so many good Christians trying to do better. And I don't want to downplay that, look down on that at all while we still try to do better. It's a delicate balance. So yes, sometimes we can be too negative, but the idea that acknowledging elephants in the room is negative is how elephants stay in the room, unfortunately. So we've got a couple more to get to. Joe, you want to kick off this next one? It's related.
[00:41:07] Speaker C: I was going to say it's related. And that is, as we already mentioned, Pete, ATP and such. I think there's a culture.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:15] Speaker C: Lectureships. I think there's the idea that we are very anti lectureships, very anti church conference because we have dunked on them before and we've talked about it is not the perfect metric for. Oh, the, the church is strong. Well, yeah, you got 7,000 of the strongest Christians from around the nation coming together. Doesn't mean that by and large that that speaks to the little, little church in, you know, country church and in the middle of Illinois or the church in Oregon that's just suffering. You know, it doesn't speak to that. But still, people can look at it and say we're anti ptp. And the other one that goes alongside this is our conference culture. And the other one is anti preaching school that Jack and I, yes, we went through Bear Valley. I think people can look at it and say that we don't like preaching schools and fellows. As I'm saying this, I'll let you maybe answer this first before I give my opinion on it, but what are your thoughts on that? Do you think I could see how people would see this, that we are anti conference culture, anti seminars, church groups, church gatherings, things like that, and anti preaching schools that kind of go hand in hand to some degree. What are your thoughts on that and what might you say to the critics that think that?
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Hey folks, you've probably heard us talk about Focus plus and the Deep End. If you're wondering what that is. Focus plus is our subscription service available through Patreon. Every week members get all kinds of Christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, a sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the Deep End, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for Think Deeper listeners where you can submit your comments on an episode and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focus or go to focuspress.org/.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: So I would kind of summarize my position to be I'm not anti lectureship or conference. I'm anti lectureship and conference culture. And by that I mean like obviously things like polishing the pulpit, lectureships and conferences where you are going to enrich yourself spiritually to learn, learn to sit at the feet of, of preachers and like to, to learn. Like I think that's great. Like I think that is a very specifically for the people who, you know, they get two weeks of vacation a year and one of them is spent, you know, at PTP where you know, eight hours of your day you're sitting listening to, to biblical stuff. Like of course I'm not going to say that that is wrong or that that is bad. Like I think that is a really, really good thing. What I have a serious problem with is the shaking hands, kissing babies. Lets me take a selfie with every, you know, famous Church of Christ preacher and post it all over Facebook and hey, look who I'm hanging out with. And kind of the, the elbow rubbing political game that gets played. And if you're somebody who that's, you're oblivious to that, good for you, man. That's fantastic. If you're somebody who, you are, you know, familiar with what I'm talking about, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. And there are going to be folks who might hear this and deny it and say, no, that's not how it is. That's 100 how it is. All you have to do is go look at Facebook the week of, middle week of August or whenever PTP is. Go look at Facebook whenever. And I was just at cyc. I enjoyed it. Go look at Facebook whenever. You know, CYC takes place in February. And it's a lot of selfies, it's a lot of name dropping, it's a lot of hey, look at this preacher that I'm hanging out with, look how holy I am type of thing. And man, that, that stuff just drives me nuts. And so that's what I would say is once again, overall not anti lectureships. I was at cyc, enjoyed it. We had a booth there. Not anti polishing the pulpit, not anti those things. I think going there to, to learn and going there to enrich your spiritual walk is fantastic. But I am anti the culture. I think the culture is pretty bad. And that's one, once again, mainly a leadership critique. So those are my thoughts. Jack, what would you say?
[00:45:11] Speaker B: I think the best thing about it is the fellowship opportunities. You're getting Christians together. You know, families can meet. I know people have made lifelong friends from just somebody they met in the hallway at a conference, lectureship, whatever, spouses and such. Yeah, seriously. I mean like life changing kind of fellowship. And I think that's great. I think we need more of that. The idea that we're pouring so many resources and so much time into. Let's get everyone in a room together and listen to preaching. Like in a time where that stuff is digitally available, easier than ever like that. We don't actually need to be pouring many resources and much focus into that kind of thing because I think it leads to the echo chamber. I think it leads to the deciding which. And this stuff has happened in real time of oh, this guy talks about that. Well, he's not allowed. We don't talk about that here. We don't, we don't allow that view.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: No dissenting opinions.
[00:46:02] Speaker B: Right, right. And obviously you need some kind of filter for it. But on the other hand, like it becomes echo chambery and you start filtering people out and, and there's a cliquishness, you know, among the, the preacher class, things like that. I think that stuff's all very unhealthy. I think Again, the local church's resources, if we disperse that stuff and really focused. Luke Taylor had a really good article on this a couple of years ago about if we put this into missions, if we put it into local church outreach, things like that, the kind of time and effort and money that goes into this, resource wise, I think we'd be a lot healthier rather than these. One shot, man. The one week a year I'm going to go and get my, my cup filled and that's going to have to carry me for 51 weeks.
Yeah, I, I think there's a lot to rethink there. And you know, of course that's always. Well, you're just jealous you don't get invited. Okay. Yeah, that's. I guess that's it. I mean that's, that's what I was gonna say.
[00:46:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that's.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: But so I, again I, I see the obvious benefits. I do not want to take that away from anyone or guilt anybody. I don't want anyone thinking, man, should we go? If you enjoy those benefits, great. It again, it's kind of the other thing, like I said on the last point, I don't hold it against the people. It's the leadership of these things, like thinking through what are we doing with this and you know, is it a ladder climbing opportunity like Will's talking about and things like that? Yeah, I think it can become that. And if, if anybody says that it can't or that would never happen, I think that's just not being realistic.
[00:47:20] Speaker C: The average person, as both of you have stated, is probably not aware of that. So good for you guys. Go enjoy it. Have it. Have a great time. Listen, that's good.
[00:47:27] Speaker B: Speaking the cross, examining ourselves. I do feel bad if we have caused anybody to feel guilty about, you know, going to fellowship people or any like to question themselves, do what is best for your family spiritually. That is going to be my, my biggest piece of advice on anything is what draws you and your family closer to God and to other Christians.
[00:47:44] Speaker C: The one other thing that I would add to this, then we can move on though. We, we got to discuss preaching schools too. But the one other thing I might add to this is those that are like it's heaven on earth, you know, and it's just nothing like this and you come back to your local church like, you know, like getting home, I.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: Don'T like, type of thing.
[00:47:59] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Back to the grind, back to these.
[00:48:01] Speaker C: People type of thing. Like man, put that into, to your church. Work to make your church the place where it's an oasis for you where it's, you know, 52 weeks out of the year, you get to show up with people that you want to be around. And, and I know that's not always possible, but at the same time, like, and, and maybe you look at it as the preaching, as Jack said. Okay, go find another preacher online. There's a bazillion one sermons on YouTube. Go fill your cup up in other ways during the week and then come together and be excited to, to worship. Be excited to fellowship with your local church. Don't down them because they're not ptp. Yeah, it's, it's very much like church camps where kids are like, wow, this is what church is usually like because they went during the summer and got a massive high from like, wow, this is incredible. I feel spiritually, you know, and they get baptized and everything's great and everybody's in a loving mood. Then they come home and it's like, oh man, wow, this isn't at all like that. I think sometimes there is that coming off of it. So just be careful. It doesn't mean that we, we hate it. Just be careful of it. The anti preaching school thing, just to briefly speak on that. I don't think I'm against Bible colleges. I think the way that we are doing it, yes. Coming from Bear Valley, a lot of friends in Bear Valley, a lot of people that, you know, I got friends at sunset too. And, and I don't think it's, it's Southwest School of Biblical Studies. I think at this point with the Southeast. There you go with Will Hanstein and Mike Green and those guys over there. Fantastic guys, love them to death. I, I appreciate what these men have done. I just think we need to re examine how we are churning out the preachers, taking them. Jack has done a great job on this, so he could speak to this way better than me. He's done a great job on detailing these things and articles and such. But taking a kid from Oklahoma and taking him to preaching school in Denver or in Tennessee or in Texas or whatever it is, and then shipping him off to Oregon to go help in a church over there, I don't know that that's the best case or the job he could get is in the middle of Indiana and he's not from Indiana. And it's such a culture shock and I think there are some struggles. I think it used to be easier to do because social media and things like that weren't there. And it may seem like it'd be Harder without social media. But I think you just got into a community and communities were a lot closer and they've kind of accepted you and you get to know the people. And now I think that's really difficult. So I'm for reexamining the idea and the concept of maybe how we do it. I don't think we need to, like, shut down the schools or anything like that. I think the biblical knowledge is fantastic, and I'm glad that I went.
But I think there are some things that we could probably think differently on, and that's where we stand on this is I'd love to have an open dialogue on what we think might be able to help. Shutting them down, I don't think is the answer, but maybe how we go about navigating those would be. Would be good. So, fellas, any thoughts on that before we move to the last one?
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Just briefly, I think it's important to be realistic. Like, we're not calling for them to shut down. We also don't think they're going to go, oh, I listen to a thing, deeper thing. That's it. Go, boys. Pack it up.
I hope to reach a guy who's in a church kind of in the middle of nowhere, thinking, well, you know, I'm spiritually interested. I guess I'll go to preaching school and then I'll go get assigned a pulpit somewhere. No, your church there needs you. And so look for development opportunities there. The local church should be looking like, how can we maximize this guy's presence with us as a teacher, as a leader, as a whatever else, if we get a few more people doing that rather than going the other route, I think that's a healthier thing. That's what I'm angling for with that. So the critique. I'm not trying to take, you know, food off anybody's table with that and the good work they're doing any of those things.
I just want us to get a little bit back more to localism. So just that brief thought on that for me. All right, we got one last one we're going to do briefly. This one is more me than these guys, but you guys have been along for the ride as I've talked about.
[00:51:31] Speaker C: It, and that we.
[00:51:32] Speaker B: We've made politics an idol. There was a guy that thought that I really believed we should force people to conversion by the sword because, you know, we believe in Christian governance.
[00:51:40] Speaker A: He didn't actually believe that, right?
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no. Like, so your view of, you know, this Christian nationalism thing is that basically the Government should force people to be Christians. Like, never said that once. I said we should have laws like, you can't kill your baby. We should have laws like, you know, things that are positive and uplift people and not, you know, destructive. And that that's better than the alternative, that you can't walk into a women's locker room and if you're a dude, you know, like, things like that. I think that's better than the alternative. And getting to where the nation acknowledges God and that we, you know, humble ourselves before him. Like, all of those are good things, I think. But it quickly becomes, oh, so you're replacing the strategy of the church, you're replacing evangelism, you're replacing the work of the church, all of those things with politics. So that's going to solve all of our problems. It's like, there's a lot of baskets here for eggs to be put into. Okay, I'm not putting them all in the basket of politics. The point of politics, first Timothy 2 is, is to make our lives easier to lead as Christians, to evangelize, easier to raise our families, easier to go to church easier, things like that. And so we want that. And because we have a say in that, to some small degree, we should advocate for that and then go do the other things.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: I don't have a lot to add. I think Jack summed that up pretty well. I. I think typically whenever this discussion comes up, it. It is very evident that there are certain people who just think that this is the right thing to say that, you know, our King Christ Kingdom is not of this world. Jesus still on his throne. And once again, to kind of go back to a point I brought up earlier, kind of what's been fed to them.
And so anybody, especially with the Christian nationalism thing, like, oh, Christian nationalism equals bad. Like, we need to. We need to stand up and oppose Christian nationalism. Like, that's kind of what's been fed to people. And so anytime somebody like Jack or, like, any of us come out and say, no, that's not a bad thing. It raises those alarm bells. And the other side can easily say, so, so what you're saying that, you know, politics is the way that we can change the world? It's like, no, but it can help. It certainly can help. If we live in a country where drag queens are not allowed to read books to. To kids at libraries. It certainly can help if. If, you know, women's sports competitions are fair again, with. Without men, you know, being. Taking part in them and stuff like that. And so that's what I feel like. I just feel like this is such a common sense discussion. Like yes, I would, I would rather have somebody who is a anti abortion than somebody who is not. I would rather live in a country where it is harder to get an abortion than easier. I would rather live in a country where, you know, offering surgery and hormones and stuff to 13 year olds is frowned upon rather than smiled upon. Like this is not complicated to me. And yet it's such a, I don't know, it's such a talking point for some people, you know, Christian nationalism and such. Joe, what thoughts do you have?
[00:54:30] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to tee you up Joe, for just a second. But the Christian nationalism thing, Christian like all those things that should have Christian values, the nationalist thing is it should be for its own citizens. And when you start saying that, you know, anti immigration, focus on the citizens first and not the whole world, people come in and go, well didn't Jesus tell us like, well hang on, you want government to follow Christian principles? Like they don't ever actually think through their beliefs on these. So Joe, I was going to put one other misconception is the Christian nationalism, that these beliefs are that the church should Stars and Stripes forever sing God Bless America in church. You know, like all those things that, that the print the Bible with the Constitution and you know, some of these things that you see sometimes politically that's the other misconception. So I want you to address that one before we finish up here. Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:16] Speaker C: We clearly do not believe in that. We're not mixing, we're not bringing the country into our church as, as you know, ahead of God or on par with God or anything like that. We're saying exactly as you guys have said, a country that is Christian, that is ruled by Christians is going to be better than a country ruled by pagans, plain and simple. That does not mean that we need to bring in all of the, the elements of our country into our worship. God is the God that we're serving. We're not serving the Constitution, we're not serving the United States of America or the flag or anything like that. Like we are here to worship God and God alone. We don't put anything on that level. So no, that is a flat out misconception on what exactly that is. The only thing I was going to say is will, as you said it. Well, pretty common sense. The struggle I have is we're not called to change governments, we're called to change individual hearts. Okay, so 40 million babies that have been Murdered in a country that has allowed it. So now we have 39,999,999 instead of 40 million. Great. Or maybe we could outlaw it and save all 40 million. You know, so changing one heart is great. Let's convert that person too and let's outlaw it. I don't understand why those things have to be opposed and why we can't.
[00:56:27] Speaker A: They're not mutually exclusive, right?
[00:56:29] Speaker C: Correct. Why can't we have both? Where we are changing hearts, we are evangelizing, we are helping people to realize that that's wrong in a country that already sees it as wrong. So we saved all of the people we didn't get to the other 39,999,000. All those other people we didn't get to convert still don't have an opportunity to go murder their babies. I think that's, that's better than not. And every logical person is going to go, yeah, that's probably better than having a country that just allows everything willy nilly.
So logically they can get it. But they're too busy telling us that we want to print constitutions in the Bible. That's not at all what we're talking about in Christian nationalism. So it's just, I don't think they understand the debate. It's the same thing as New Heavens, New Earth. You don't understand what we're saying. You're using this term, the Negro, Montoya, Like I don't think it means what you think it means, type of thing, or I don't think you understand what we're saying here. Maybe you need to listen to what we're saying first before you just write us off as being these patriots that are going to come in with our George Washington haircuts, talking about, you know, talking about the Constitution and God bless America from our pulpits. No, you know, though I'm okay with preaching God bless America from our pulpits. God bless America and God bless Indonesia too, if that's where you happen to live. Like, yes, we want God to rule in whatever nation we happen to be in. So, yeah, it just drives me nuts.
[00:57:42] Speaker B: This one's the ultimate litmus test and people's ability to think through what sounds good on the surface and what actually is real life truth and bears good fruit and stuff like that. Like, okay, let's say a, you know, convicted sex offender is stalking your teenage daughter. Do you call the police? Yes. Okay, so you're in favor of, you're not changing hearts. You're not laws at that Point, like, come on, you're gonna go evangelize him. Like that's your plan to protect your daughter? No, like, there are different categories and you handle them differently. Yes, that guy should be evangelized, but he also should be stopped. And like, same thing for so many other things. And it's better that that would happen that way than. Than he gets to do whatever he wants. Like, just think through it and. And. But somebody will come along. Well, the way of the cross, the. That Jesus didn't want us to do, you know, change laws. You want to change. They'll say all that stuff. And then you just get to these practicals. It all falls apart. But it. Boy, we can really pat.
[00:58:37] Speaker A: It Sounds good.
[00:58:37] Speaker B: It does. It sounds great. So, yeah, that's one that again, what people think we're trying to do versus the how simple. And as you said, Will very logical. Like, this is not this very common sense. Pretty. Pretty straightforward. So it's kind of funny we do a cross examined. I hope we stopped enough to go. Yeah, we could have done that better. We did a few of those, which is good. I didn't want to be like, we were right about everything. Well, three years.
[00:59:00] Speaker C: We are amazing.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: Y. Yeah, you're going to make some adjustments. So just to review briefly, we. We do not endorse chauvinism. And if any guy took away from our podcast, hey, go run over your wife. That's not it. Don't help your wife.
[00:59:11] Speaker C: Whatever.
[00:59:11] Speaker B: That's not it at all. It's a certain type of leadership which is serving while leading, not the other way around, as we talked about, you know, just the church tearing down the church, introducing doctrines, trying to make people stumble, things like that. That's not what we're here for, you know, and. And criticizing the way the church does things from the allocation of resources with schools and training and lectureships, you know, that's.
Yeah, I. I stand behind our takes. Yes. Some of them might change the way we'd say it, or I'd take a little more time, as I said, to pat people on the back and tell them they're doing a good job. But, you know, I think all in all, I don't think we've changed a whole lot over the years. I think we pretty well stand where we stand.
[00:59:50] Speaker A: Some clarification, maybe.
[00:59:51] Speaker B: Some clarification. Yeah. So before we head out on the break that we talked about.
Yeah, again, some. Some kind of inside baseball for the die hard deep thinkers. But I hope everybody else that might not might be a newer listener. You know, got something out of this one as well. Any concluding thoughts from you guys for the next couple of weeks?
[01:00:10] Speaker C: Thank you, everybody, for listening. Thank you to all our supporters, all our listeners, those that have stuck with us over the years with all of the, the takes that we've had. We've had some hot takes, we've had some things that clearly didn't, didn't go over super well. But for those that are still listening and that are here, we very much appreciate it. And so, yeah, we thank you guys. We wouldn't, wouldn't be able to do this without you. So, yeah, that's just a big thank you.
[01:00:31] Speaker A: I would echo that, my appreciation, as always, to anybody who chooses to spend an hour of their week. As somebody who knows hours are hard to come by, a lot of stuff that is spoken for. But for you to spend an hour of your week listening to us is we're very grateful. And you will not have an episode for the next couple of weeks. But I will say, unless you've listened since day one, scroll back to 2022, 2023, you might find an episode where you're like, whoa, I want to hear what they said about that.
So there's plenty of archive to go back and listen over the next couple weeks as we take a little bit of a break. But, yeah, I'm already excited to, to see what happens when we come back. So thank you, guys.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: All right, with that, we'll close it and we'll talk to you guys when we talk to you.
[01:01:17] Speaker A: It.
