REWIND: Christians and Self-Defense

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hey guys, Jack Wilke here. Just reminding you, as we announced last week, we are on a bit of a hiatus. And so what we're sharing today is a rerun episode from our first year back in 2022 on Christians and self defense. Joe and Will and I did a bit of a roundtable on some views that are out there. Kind of tried to do a deep dive study on if it's okay for Christians to defend themselves, to carry weapons and things like. And so some of you might remember listening to that, some of you may not have ever heard this. So we're glad to be able to put this out there once again, if I can get them together. For those of you that are Focus plus subscribers, we did not have Focus plus at the time and so it'd be great to get comments and possibly do a deep end on that. And so be sure to check it out and give us comments over there. Just reach out wherever. As this is an older episode, there are no ad breaks in it. So I'll just tell you to check out focuspress.org we got sale items going up. Obviously we're always open to donations or whatever items you might want to pick up and support our work in that way. So that's all the ad read I'm going to give you this time. And here's our episode. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Our topic for today is a sombering one. It's a, it's an interesting one, one that pretty much everybody I would imagine is going to have an opinion on. It's one that is just one of those hot topics that a lot of people like to debate. We're talking about self defense. What is a Christian's response to guns or what should a Christian's response be to self defense, to violence against other people? And obviously there have been several recent events in the last few months now that have really kind of brought this question back to light. You obviously had the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, all the way back in April, May. It's hard to believe that it's been that long. But obviously that was an event that dominated the headlines for a while. Just a tragic event. And then another, I guess smaller story you might say that's been in the news over the last several weeks is the shoot is the, the kidnapping and then the murder of Eliza Fletcher, the runner, the jogger, I suppose that was in Memphis that was again kidnapped and killed. Again, one of those stories that's just really captured the attention of so many people. And so it's things like that. It's Tragic stories like that that bring up this debate, that bring up this question, what should a Christian's response be to self defense? Should a Christian own a gun? Should a Christian have a concealed carry permit? Is it right? Is it wrong? Should Christians even be looking to enact violence on other people? And so obviously there's a lot, there's a wide range of beliefs on this. There's a wide range of opinions on this according to scripture, I'll be honest, the New Testament, when we were studying this leading into this week, again, there's a lot of, a lot of strong opinions on this one way or the other. Obviously, I've lived in the south my whole life. Joe is a recent, he has moved to the south recently. We live in gun culture down here in the south, right? You know, everybody's got guns and we're proud of them. And you know, that's an area that we want to explore in this episode. But I want, Joe, I want you to start us off here as we talk about this issue of self defense. What should a Christian's response be? And again, as always, this is going to be an emotionally charged. There's going to be people listening that are, have incredibly strong opinions one way or the other. We want to encourage you as we have tried to do with this. Take a look at this from a biblical perspective. Let's lay aside the emotion because with the stories, with the tragedies, this can be heavily emotional. But we want to look at God's word and what it has to say. So Joe, get us into kind of the, the debate itself. What are the different ranges of beliefs and opinions on this idea of self defense? [00:03:54] Speaker C: So I think you touched on it really well in that this is broad ranging, but the spectrum here is the, the metronome, so to speak, that this is on is very interesting because on the one hand you kind of have, might call like ultra maga. I'm not going to go outside my house without having my concealed carry on me flexing. You know, you see these guys with their big trucks and they have like an AR15 attached to the back of their big truck just to make sure. And the guys that waltz into Starbucks in Utah with, with guns on their back and you know they're going to make their position very clear. And you have some, a lot of these are Christian people that feel that that's their duty to protect and to serve. And so they're once again, they're like very rabid about that. And then you have the other side, which is very interesting as well, and this is more of the John Piper, like you get some of this in the denominational leaning world and not leaning, but you know, the denominational even in the Calvinist world of total pacifism. And so as you're considering just the pendulum swing back and forth like two opposite sides. They're both claiming to be Christian, they're both claiming to back it up from scripture. The one being the total pacifism. The other being, I don't know, is there a specific term? [00:05:07] Speaker A: I think there is a spectrum here of pacifism is somebody who's like, I'm never, never going to pinch somebody, you know, so much as that. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:05:15] Speaker A: And another side of it, it's kind of almost like waiting for the chance, you know, just make my day kind of Clint Eastwood thing. [00:05:21] Speaker C: But I think most, there's a lot in the middle. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah, most people are shade to one or the other, but are not. [00:05:29] Speaker C: All. [00:05:29] Speaker A: The way to that extreme. And so I would say people who feel a biblical duty to never kill. Right. Of Christians should not kill people. The New Testament, this is not the way of Christ, whatever it may be. And so you shouldn't shoot, you shouldn't carry a gun because that could kill somebody. And then people who feel that the biblical duty is to defend. And so I think most of our listeners will be in one of those two camps. We probably have some total pacifists. We've probably got some more of the. And I'm not trying to paint all gun owners, gun concealed carry people as that. You guys, I think you portrayed it accurately, Joe. The people who kind of flaunt it. I went to the Texas state capitol for something and there were people walking around with, you know, rifles across their back. And it's like, I'm okay, concealed carry, that's. That's one thing. This, you know, just kind of performative version of it. And so yeah, there's. Those are kind of the extremes. And then in between you've got people who think I'm gonna carry, I'm gonna conceal it so I can defend in case there's that opportunity that comes up. Not opportunity, but the event in which it's needed. And then the people who say, I would never carry a gun because that could result in killing somebody. And I shared with you guys, as we were studying for this, a John Piper article, you mentioned him about should Christians carry a gun? Should Christians, you know, do these kinds of things? And we're going to get to the practical questions, but that question came up of what about a home intruder Somebody attacking your family. And his answer he had fleshed out, you know, I don't think the New Testament gives us reason to kill. I don't think that's something should Christians should be involved in. So what would you do if somebody attacked your family? His answer was, I don't know. I feel like the principle is maybe that I shouldn't do something. And boy, that feels wrong, doesn't it? And so as we talk about the spectrum, we're going to work through principles to consider. We're going to look at Bible verses that are cited in this discussion, biblical kind of concepts, and then we're going to get into those practicals of church shooter, home intrusion, things like that. So let's get into the principles a little bit, because it is those principles that a John Piper type would be drawing on to say, I couldn't shoot a home intruder. I wouldn't do those things. So the first we've talked about a lot is love your neighbor, right? That is part of this, right? And I don't know, how do you guys see that applying in this discussion? [00:07:54] Speaker C: The interesting thing is it goes back and forth because on the one hand, loving your neighbor might be defending them and keeping them from harm, and on the other hand, loving your neighbor might be not shooting them, bringing them to harm. Because everybody being our neighbor, right, we're supposed to love people and we're supposed to pray for those who persecute us and bless those, right, who are persecuting us. And so this is why the debate is so difficult is I look at that passage and I interpret it one way. You look at the passage, interpret the exact opposite way. It's the same passage. So the love your neighbor, it kind of determines, or it depends on how you decide to determine it. The way I look at it is it's tough. It's kind of like, I don't know if we want to get into this completely, but the circles of neighbor, I don't know that you can say that per se, but like, is it better, is it right to defend your family over maybe a stranger from thousand miles away? Like, who's your immediate neighbor? You want to take care of those who are closest to you, and maybe taking care of those who are closest to you might be defending them. So is it wrong then to shoot somebody because they might also be your neighbor, Love your neighbor as yourself? Well, if you're doing something that's unneighborly, then they would jump to Romans. I mean, this is such a. Because they could jump. [00:09:07] Speaker A: That's My problem with the. With the Piper take is he was essentially saying, you know, I. I want to make sure this person knows the love of Christ through me. It's like, okay, but what about your wife, right? You know, if she's being raped and killed by this person, what are you telling her about the love of Christ? What are you telling her about your duty to Christ, your love of her, your protection of her? You brought that up. And we talked before about off air, about First Timothy 5, about providing for your own. You're not supposed to provide for everybody. You start at home. Right? Well, in the same way of, like, your love should start, first of all with your wife and your children before you owe them. Before you owe the other guy will go. [00:09:45] Speaker B: I was just gonna say, and this is a guess, practical maybe, bit of an imagine, you know, imaginary point to all this, but can y'all name me the school shooter, the theater shooter, the concert shooter, whatever, who was converted because somebody allowed them to shoot them to show the love of Christ, you know? You know what I mean? Again, that. That was kind of the piper point of, well, you know, we need to show that person love of Christ. Again, I don't mean to be, you know, accrued or anything like that. When has that ever worked? When is that ever something where the school, you know, the Columbine y'all are. Y'all lived very close. I forget. The girl's name was Rachel Scott. One of the victims allegedly professed Christ and then was shot. Did that convert this? No. Nothing changed. And so I just struggle with that, with that point where he and I get his overall point, which is throughout our lives, we should be showing people the love of Christ? Does. The question is, does that apply when a homicidal maniac comes into a movie theater and starts shooting at your family? Or a church building in Antioch, for instance. Go ahead. [00:10:49] Speaker A: That's. You consider the Uvalde shooting. It made a lot of headlines of the police standing down. And this happened at Columbine as well, of just waiting outside, waiting and giving the shooter more opportunity to go shoot people. And if you take this, John Piper shouldn't kill. Shouldn't do these things. Tone, what you're saying is those guys were in the right. That's how it's done. That's the love of Christ, is to stand outside and let those. Those little kids get killed, you know, because God forbid we go in and stop the shooter, God forbid we kill him so that he does not kill them. And again, we're going to get into the scriptures for all this. But if that doesn't like turn your stomach, that doesn't feel wrong. I mean the, the cowardice of those men sitting outside is something that everybody, I mean even secular people, even the most, you know, non violent people were like, man, that's not a good look. [00:11:42] Speaker B: You have to consider the common sense side of this which again we're hitting the Piper article a lot because he is pretty highly respected when it comes to, you know, he's a Calvinist. So we certainly don't subscribe to everything that he says. But when he came down on this issue and he's made it very clear through YouTube videos and this article and other articles, it seemed like he did not want to address the common sense side. Again, like Jack said, when he, when he eventually got down to the question of what if somebody comes into my house and attacks my family? His answer is I don't know. Then you know, we have to consider this, this common sense side, the practical side rather than the. Well, the principled approach, I suppose. [00:12:17] Speaker A: I want to read his. What I would say, hold on, I want to read his words. So just so we have this out there so people know what we're talking about. And it's not just him. This is not the anti John Piper or answering John Piper episode. I think he distills this argument, you know, pretty well. [00:12:31] Speaker C: He's one of the faces of pacifism. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Well not, not pacifism. I don't think he'd be a pacifist so much. I think he just war theory, you know, like you, you have to use the word as it's meant. Pacifist means never hurt anybody. Never. You know, like that's. Again he would be in. Well again I'll just, I'll read him. So we have it because I think this is the non violent Christian side. Preston Spinkle or Sprinkle actually wrote a book on it. He's probably the one that gets, has the most full fleshed view on it. But Piper distills it very well. Our primary aim in life is to show that Christ is more precious than life. So when presented with this threat to my wife or daughter or friend, my heart should incline toward doing it. A good that would accomplish this great aim. Jesus died to keep that assailant from sinning against my family. That is Jesus's personal strategy for overcoming crimes was to overcome sinful inclinations by giving his life to pay debts and change hearts. He said earlier the instinct to fight back is understandable. It seems to me the New Testament resists this kind of ethical reduction and does not satisfy our demand for a yes or no on that question. We don't like this kind of ambiguity, but I can't escape it. There is, as I have tried to show, a pervasive thrust, the New Testament, pushing us toward blessing and doing good to those who hate, curse and abuse us. Luke 6, 27, 28. And so essentially it's ambiguous, but the tone is to not stand up on these things, not jump into these things. And he says later, if one's heart is controlled mainly by fear or anger or revenge, that sinful disposition may be expressed by using the police as well as taking up arms yourself. So maybe don't even call the police in this scenario. And man, it just gets worse and worse and worse from a common sense standpoint. But we do need to address it from a scriptural standpoint. And these principles we're talking about are part of that. The love your neighbor. They would say, well, the kingdom isn't expanded by the sword, which is a whole other discussion we'll get to later. But what are the principles on the other side? So we've established the principles that lay out why somebody would say, don't shoot back, don't carry, don't whatever. What principles are we going off of to say, no, I don't agree with that? What biblical principles? I guess beyond what we believe clearly is the common sense. [00:14:49] Speaker C: Before you get to that, I wanted to address that second one. So the principles to consider love your neighbor. But you briefly said the kingdom is not expanded by the sword. And my thoughts on that, who did expand by the sword? Now you can look at the Crusades, look at Christianity. No, that really is a. That was, that was going against Charles Martel. Charles the Hammer, Right. Going against a Muslim world that was expanding by the sword. And had he not stood up, we would live in a Muslim world. Christianity, it wouldn't have died out because the remnant will always remain. But Christianity, like the world, would have looked very different had he not taken the idea of bearing the sword. And yes, you could get into war, just war theory, those type of things, but there was a. There's a defensive action taken against somebody who was trying to expand the kingdom by the sword. So I'm not saying we as Christians ought to do that, but we certainly, I don't think should allow it to happen. And I think that was made clear there, where God allowed one man to raise up. And was it 1200s, whatever it is, 900s. Either way, getting around to the question, you're talking about, what are the principles on the other side? I think the first principle is that a father is the protector of his home. And you had mentioned verse 75 with you are if you can't provide for your own on a physical, food level, you're worse than an unbeliever, is what it says, right? Worse than some translations use. Infidel. I don't really like that term, but you know, it carries other connotations, especially for Islam. But you're not seen as a good man because you're not taking care of your family. We also know you're supposed to protect your home, your prophet, priest, provider, protector. Right? Those type of things. And I don't see how God can give these people to you, put you in charge of them, and for you to allow their destruction without putting up a fight at all, and think that that is the loving principle that God would have you do because, well, technically, he's my neighbor too. It's like, no, God gave you charge as father over your family partly to protect them. It's the same thing as a father out to protect his kids from spiritual harm, right? This is why we talk so much about pulling kids out of school or whatever. Like, your job as a father is to make sure that your wife going back to Adam and Eve is away from sin and that your kids stay away from that as well, and that you protect them spiritually. And if you can protect them spiritually, why would you not protect them physically? And if you're to provide for them physically, why would you not provide for their physical health through the defense of them? If somebody were to come into your. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Home, they're not one and the same is basically like the love your neighbor thing does not mean that you need to love the stranger on the street, you know, in the exact same way, you know, your family should take priority, I think, is what you're getting at there. You're protecting your family should take priority. The other thing that we're gonna have to get into is this idea of circles of authority, right? You go to Romans chapter 13, and what does it tell us about this concept of the sword, right? Romans chapter three, most people are familiar with it. Verse one starts out with. With, you know, and it's so interesting too, that that chapter break there, where chapter 12, you know, he talks about don't take personal vengeance. Why? Well, because vengeance is the Lord's, vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. Then you go into chapter 13 and you know, we, our brains typically tend to. Oh, it's A new subject. It's not a new subject because he's talking about who are his ministers to use the sword essentially, or to take vengeance. If you look at verse one, let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Continue to read and just go down to verse four. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is God's minister and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. This is where those who would be opposed to capital punishment kind of lose their, their standing ground is. Because what do you think the sword means when he says those who, you know, they don't, they don't bear the sword in vain? That's not a metaphor. That's literally what he's talking about there. And so again, when you talk about these circles of authority, God clearly allows the government and certain authority figures, authority circles, if you want to call them, to bear the sword to, you know, execute God's vengeance on behalf of him. The question that we have to get into is if you're not a cop, if you're not a member of the military, if you have not necessarily been given that authority by the government or legal entities, do you still have that right? And that's what we're going to have to get into next. What else do you guys have to add to that? [00:19:13] Speaker A: Well, I'd say with that, if they issue a concealed carry permit, it's almost to, as if you're being deputized of them saying, we have the right to put down a criminal and we're extending that right to you in limited situations. You're not to be a vigilante going out there trying to. But if threatened, you can do this. And some places have the stand your ground law. Castle Dr. You know, like your home, you can protect your home. And if somebody breaks in and is attacking your house, your family, and you shoot them, you don't go to jail for it because it's fully legal for you to do so. And so the government, which has the sword has delegated that to you. They have the right to do this. And they're saying, you join us in that right in these limited ways. I can't go out looking for people to shoot. I can't, you know, take those opportunities and try to find it. But if certain opportunities, not opportunities, certain events, situations present themselves, I've been delegated deputized by the Government to be able to do that. The fact that they have twice you've. [00:20:15] Speaker C: Used the term opportunity. Are you looking for something? [00:20:18] Speaker A: I don't see checks picking a fight here. [00:20:19] Speaker C: He's. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. I'm just again, make my day. But with those things, you've been given that right. I want to say one other thing about the, with both of these, the government and the father protection thing and all that. I always hate it when people make the argument, oh, the same people who say this are the ones who say that sometimes those. It's like to a Venn diagram where the circles don't touch at all. This one, it overlaps a lot. The people who say stand up for the oppressed and be a voice for the weak and all those are also the ones that say, you know, the Brian Zahn, the anti Christian nationalist kind of people are the we got to stand up for the weak. And the press and Christians should never have a gun, never should shoot somebody, never. Like this is where push comes to shove, right? How do you stand up into your church building and slaughter children or a public school and slaughter children or they're going to come into your home and and attack your wife and your children. Would those not be the weak and the oppressed? Is this not your chance to stand up for them and do something for them? And now you're going to say, nope, I'm going to stand down. No, like this is part of that father protection duty is you are not the weaker vessel, you are the man given this responsibility by God to take care of your family. Stand up for the weak and oppressed is a very real biblical doctrine that has many applications, but this would be one of them. And again, you know, government delegates and deputizes us to do some of these things in certain situations. [00:21:44] Speaker C: So let me stir the pot here a little bit. [00:21:45] Speaker A: Oh boy, that's you talking about every time to do. [00:21:48] Speaker C: Oh yeah, here it is. [00:21:51] Speaker A: Hot takes with Joe only took 20 minutes this time. [00:21:54] Speaker C: There you go. What if the government comes in and decides and this is where you're going to get into. Well, the second amendment, right, the Constitution. But what if the government decides to kind of overwrite the constitution, take away our guns and they take away that deputizing, they take away our concealed carry rights. What then? [00:22:11] Speaker A: Because it's not a hypothetical. I mean that's like most countries, it. [00:22:14] Speaker C: Is happening, you know, Right? It is happening. [00:22:16] Speaker A: But like not just America, but I mean Canada, there's places like that where it's incredibly. Australia came in and Took everybody's guns. I think on a legal level, there should be resistance to that of, you know, try and, you know, states like you guys said, Tennessee, Texas, you know, there's pretty strong culture. I mean, Yosemite Sam might as well be my neighbor. Literally living in Texas here, my neighbor, I look out the window one day, he's riding his riding lawnmower with a Glock on his belt. You know, like, that's, that's how it is here. And so there would be resistance for that. And I, I'm okay with that. On the other hand, if you live in Australia, you just don't have a gun, you still should take measures to protect your family. I mean, down there, what would they have, like a cricket bat or something like that? You know, like have something to defend your family if the opportunity, man, there is. Oh, man, somebody else. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Okay, I want to get into. Well, Joe, unless you want to kind of answer your own question, Jack's like. [00:23:20] Speaker C: I got a cricket bat, somebody walking. I'm begging for the opportunity. [00:23:25] Speaker A: My, my Indian buddy gave me a cricket bat. [00:23:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, I want to get into Luke 22, which is the. Usually the verse that a lot of people who would land on the side of supporting self defense, a lot of people will use this, this passage, and I want to read. It's four verses, Luke 22:35 through 38. I want to read the whole passage, but I'll go ahead and say on the surface, I don't. And I don't think these other guys either, we don't view this as a very good passage to support the idea of self defense. I'll go ahead and read it and then we'll get into it. This is Jesus. He said to them, when I sent you without money bag, or without money bag, knapsack and sandals, did you lack anything? So they said nothing. Then he said to them, but now he who has a money bag, let him take it. And likewise a knapsack. And he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you, that this which is written must still be accomplished in me. And he was numbered with the transgressors, for the things concerning me have an end. So they said, lord, look, here are two swords. And he said to them, it is enough. Again, a lot of people on the side of self defense, which you can clearly see we are as well, will use this to say, oh, see, Jesus told his apostles and his disciples to go get swords, right? Clearly that must have been for self defense. So therefore Jesus is Okay, with self defense, again, it doesn't seem just on the surface like that's really what is going on here. It seems to be a bit of a lazy application there of what's going on because clearly when two swords are brought, Jesus says it is enough. In other words, you know, two swords, that's good. You got 12 guys, two swords. Is that really going to be good enough for self defense? If that's what Jesus was going for? That's the first thing. Guys, I don't want to take all of this whole section. What do you guys have to add to that as to just kind of the debate surrounding this verse? Because again, this is one of the biggest verses people do use in support of self defense. Fence. [00:25:21] Speaker C: Well, you see, four chapters later, you know, in. In 26, was it 52, I think then Jesus said to him, put your sword back into its place for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Matthew. What did I say? [00:25:34] Speaker B: Four chapters? [00:25:35] Speaker A: You said four chapters later. [00:25:36] Speaker B: Maybe you should read your Bible more, Joe. [00:25:37] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, sorry. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah, Joe. Yeah, no, Luke is. [00:25:42] Speaker C: Luke and Matthew. They're all synoptic gospels. They just, they just took from one another. It's all. The Q document. The Q document is there, but no, anyway, yeah, so sorry. Matthew 26. Actually that's like 40 chapters before. But no, the, the point here, of course Malchus with his ear getting cut off, they come, they're arresting Jesus, all this and, and you know, Peter takes the sword out and he says, and I, I put less on the front part of. Put your sword away. Yeah, partly that's going to be Jesus in the garden recognizing right after he just got done praying all night for this cup to pass from him. This is what has to be done to fulfill prophecy. If I'm going to take away the sins of the world, I can't have Peter going off and cutting these down. [00:26:23] Speaker B: But it's Second Father your will be done. If he was going to pray that and then let his disciples go, you know, crazy chopping people's heads off in the garden. [00:26:30] Speaker C: Right, yeah, go Rambo here or whatever. Yeah. No, it's the second part of that verse though, where he says, for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. That I think is so interesting. And that kind of goes along or is not combats, because the Bible doesn't contradict itself. But that's why those who take that Luke 22 passage and say, well, this is. Okay, what do you do with this passage? Those who take up. The sword shall perish by the sword. There seems to be this Jesus laying out, you know, a foundation of like, look, we're not supposed to be a warmongering. People who are trying to defend or trying to. Shouldn't say defend ourselves, who are really trying to push our message through the sword. And so for those that look at Luke 22, they go, well, it's all in self defense. But when they had a chance to. [00:27:15] Speaker A: Defend themselves, told them to put it away. [00:27:17] Speaker C: Jesus says, don't put it away because you'll perish those who, you know, pulls or perished by the sword. So I don't know, I think those kind of go hand in hand there to show maybe that's not what Jesus meant. So, Jack, what do you think Jesus did intend in Luke 22? [00:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Sandwiched around that, you know, sell your coat and buy a sword. He has the quotes from Isaiah 52, I'm going to be numbered with transgressors. He said, this is 53, Jack. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Goodness gracious, y'all. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Goodness. I've been hanging out with Joe too much. 5,000, 312. Yeah, that's the number I'm looking for. But he comes back around, they say, okay, you know, he said, we need to fulfill this, that I'd be numbered among transgressors. And they said, we've got two swords. He said, yeah, that's enough. That essentially, that'll do that. That fits. And so when they come to arrest him, he's numbered among transgressors. And this goes with what he says to Pilate of, you know, my disciples aren't fighting for this. We could. And so Congresswoman Lauren Boebert from our home state of Colorado, mine and Joe's home state of Colorado, not the brightest bulb in the drawer on the tree, whatever, wherever the bulb is, at some conference in the last few months, said, well, if Jesus had had an AR15, he wouldn't have been put to death on the cross. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Wow. [00:28:30] Speaker A: And that goes back to the thing we talked about at the start, like the, you know, guns, guns, guns, we're going to shove it in your face culture. Like, okay, you didn't read the Bible. Because as he says, he tells Pilate, like, I'm here because I want to be here. If I didn't want to be here if I wasn't letting you do this, you know, and of course, the 12 legions of angels, all the things he could have done. And so he's saying, I'm not here to fight for this. If my kingdom were of this World, my. And everyone thought that's why Peter was ready to fight, is like, all right, let's go, we're gonna get these guys and we're go for the Romans and we're gonna, you know, it's time to conquer. And he's like, that's. That's not how we're doing this. And so, yeah, the kingdom is not spread at the tip of the sword, as Joe pointed out. You know, Islam tried to do that. You know, there have been all kinds of conquests throughout history, but the church didn't expand that way. It doesn't expand that way. And so that's not what he's saying in Luke 22. And Matthew 26 kind of shows us that. But that still doesn't mean that self defense is prohibited. So let's get to a little bit more before we. [00:29:26] Speaker B: I want to flip the script here, because on the other side of the coin, people will go to Matthew, chapter five, Jesus, Sermon on the Mount, and use these passages as a piece of evidence as to why we should not enact self defense. Obviously, you get the Beatitudes where He says, Matthew 5, verses 11:12. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute, persecute you and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. But the big one is obviously in verse 38, same setting. You've heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you not to resist an evil person. Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him. Also, again, you know this famous verse, turn the other cheek. A lot of proponents of the pacifist side of things will use this to say, see, Jesus is saying, you know, don't enact violence on somebody else. Self defense kind of goes out the window here. And just like I don't think Luke 22 is a very good piece of evidence to defend the self defense side, I really don't think this text in Matthew 5 is a good piece of evidence to defend the other side. Because what is Jesus talking about here? Is he talking about somebody? Again, to use the analogies of today, is he talking about somebody coming into a school and shooting up first graders? Is he talking about somebody coming into your house and trying to kidnap your kids and rape your wife and kill your wife? He's talking about, you know, little squabbles in the marketplace? He's talking about Things, you know, you know, somebody who just blatant disrespect, he's not talking about somebody threatening your family. And so I think that, well, even. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Even the Roman persecution, right, you know, of, hey, strap this on and carry my pack a mile. And he says, go the extra mile. And so, you know, you are an oppressed people. And the zealots were the people, you know, they were trying to stab these centurions, stab the soldiers and really kind of get their digs in to fight back a little bit. And it's in the face of that that he's saying, no, that's not how we're going to do this. And so that is a principle we have to internalize and live by. But it also, I agree with you, Will does not mean don't stop somebody from shooting kindergartners. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Right, Right. And there is a, that speaks to the kind of the John Piper tone thing that he really hit on in his article is that the tone of the New Testament, the tone of Jesus teaching is, you know, spreading the kingdom in love and less about taking personal vengeance, less about being out to hurt people and less about violence and more about love. Again, though, Joe, I'll let you get into this. The kind of the equation that he makes between government induced persecution and again, personal violence, I think that needs to be hit as well. Because that plays into this. [00:32:05] Speaker C: Exactly. Because we were talking about this before the podcast, right. Like, that's one of the things that I think it, both me and you, as we're reading and studying up on this is like everybody who makes that case for the. What look what the New Testament does specifically in the hands of persecution. Look what Paul does. Paul doesn't, you know, carry out the sword against those who are stoning him. It's like, yeah, it's like 50 to 1. What do you think he's going to do? You know, like, of course he's going to run out of there. He defends himself in as so far as lowering himself in the basket to get out of Damascus. Right. Those type of things. So we see him defending himself or protecting himself in some way. But there is a huge difference between persecution of the church and somebody coming against you in the name of Christ versus somebody coming into your store to rob you and shoot you or coming into your, into your home to, you know, again to kill you or whatever it may be. I think there's a big difference between those. But everybody wants to equate the two as though a government sponsored persecution or a, you know, a Mass coming out, a mass of people coming out to kill you in the name of Christ or for the name of Christ. I think that's different. I think that is persecution taking place for Christian reasons and not because they're just really bad criminals who want to kill you. I see one. And people may. People may not see a difference, but they're not one in the same. And the one thing you can get into. You were talking earlier, like, when's. Name a time where, you know, somebody was saved from, like a shooter was saved. And one of the guys that is brought up is Jim Elliott, right, In Ecuador. And instead of taking out their pistols and firing back at him, they. They let the cannibalistic tribe kill them. And then of course, his wife comes in and converts that tribe later. And so that's the. That's the hero story of, hey, he didn't defend himself. And ultimately they came to Christ because of it. I don't know where we fall on that, but I still look at it as that's a persecution in the name of Christ that he knew he was up against versus somebody coming into his home to kill his wife and kids. I still see a difference there between preserving self and preserving Christ, if that makes sense. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Well, so here's. There's two isms here that we need to discuss. First is pietism, which is essentially. It makes everything about evangelism. Not everything's about evangelism. Evangelism is a big deal. Reaching the lost is a big deal. Spreading the gospel, it's a big deal. It's a huge part of our lives. It's a huge emphasis in our lives. It's not everything. In fact, for a while, I kind of drifted towards the pietistic view of the world, which is kind of don't get your hands dirty. Above it all, politics, self defense, all this stuff we're talking about. And when I did that, I had the hardest time with the Book of Proverbs, because the influences that push you towards pietism, Piper does some of it. Tim Keller does some of it. Some of these people we've talked about that have big influence in the denominational world. And whether you read them or not, I know we've got a lot of people here who don't read denominational authors. Their influence trickles down into the church. Some of the. If you listen to this podcast, there are other Church of Christ podcasters I could name who are influenced by those guys who are giving you their ideas. And so the ideas come through. And that pietism, above it all Kind of stuff. When you're in that Proverbs doesn't make sense because you kind of view the whole Bible as, you know, it's the message of Christ and Jesus. And it's not works based, it's transformation into Christ. And that's a big part of it. But it's not everything because when you get to Proverbs, it's talking about making money, it's talking about work and these hands on real life things and defending the oppressed and things like that that come up and you think, well, how does this fit? How does this point me to Christ? It's submission to Christ in living wise way, living in the fear of the Lord. And so it's that not everything in your life has to be evangelistic. Not everything in your life has to be, you know, that, that hyper spiritualized, otherworldly kind of thing. This world has Christian applications. And so defense and your home and protecting your family, feeding your family. These are things that the gospel, evangelistic, you know, the pietistic, above it all stuff doesn't have an answer for. And so we can't throw it all in one basket and say, well, we don't evangelize very well if we go, if we shoot that guy. So we just got to let him shoot us. It's a whole separate category. The other ism we need to talk about is marcionism. On my other podcast, who Let the Dogma Out? We're gonna do a whole episode on this. It'll be a short discussion of it here. Essentially it was Marcion the heretic was a guy that said the Old Testament God was different than the New Testament God. He was the mean, vindictive, punishing, violent God. And Jesus came essentially to save us from that God. And so Marcion said, we've got to cut out the Old Testament. We don't need it. I think I might have talked about this before, so I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but there's a lot of Christians who operate as if Marcion was basically right. David killing Goliath. We kind of look at that and go, boy, not, not good, David. Jesus wouldn't have done that. You know, Moses and burying the Egyptians in the sea. And not only do they bury the Egyptians after it, they get to the other side. Yeah, they start dancing and partying. Ah, God killed the Egyptians. God drowned you. God. You know, like. [00:37:20] Speaker C: Should have been 80s song. Drown like an Egyptian. Sorry, sorry, sorry. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Written co. Written by Moses and Miriam. Yeah, exactly. But the violence of the Israelite saints You know, the conquest of Canaan and all those things that lead people to say, boy, we shouldn't talk Old Testament much, because it's pretty violent. And then you get to these Christians who want to say, Jesus would not have done that. Jesus wouldn't have carried a sword. And when people say that they haven't read the Book of Revelation because he's not only carrying a sword, but putting it to pretty good use in the Book of Revelation real quick. But this idea of Jesus made a shift. [00:37:59] Speaker B: I was gonna say this speaks to a point that we made when we were talking about whether or not we should celebrate the Roe v. Wade victory. You remember that discussion, if you haven't seen, we had a video on it, one of our think fasts. But there was this really big push, this really big movement to basically say, look, we really shouldn't be boasting about this. We really shouldn't be posting, you know, Facebook posts that are celebrating this. Because there's a lot of people that this is affecting. And I don't remember which one of you made the point. It's like, no, we rejoice when good triumphs over evil. That's a biblical principle. That is a biblical precept. When God wins and when Satan loses, that's not something that we should sit back and go, well, man, maybe let me consider everybody else. No, that's something worth celebrating. That's something that is worth rejoicing over and again, this kind of Old Testament shyness, this tendency to just teach New Testament. And again, Jack, you're right. Nobody is going to stand up in the church and say that the Old Testament God is different. But that is how we act, right? That's kind of the way that we involuntarily view things in a lot of senses. [00:39:02] Speaker A: So the Piper article, he just keeps saying, nowhere in the New Testament we find this. Nowhere in the New Testament. Do you see this attitude? Nowhere. Okay, but Genesis 9. 6 says, whoever takes a life by man, his life shall be taken. That's a principle coming off the ark to Noah that was going to be established for every human who ever lived. At that point of, if you kill somebody, you will be killed by my man's. If you shed man's blood, yours is going to be shed and turn. And then Exodus 22 actually talks about this scenario of, you know, if a thief breaks into the house and is killed in the process, there's no blood guiltiness. You're not charged for it. And so this is in the law that was given by God. Signed off on by Jesus that in the only theocracy God ever had, he said it's okay to kill intruders in your home. And so this idea of boy Jesus. And so I'm not saying that that law applies to the New Testament, but on the other hand, this idea that Jesus is toning down the mean God, that Jesus would look at that law and be like, ooh, I'm not for that. Yes, he was. Yes, he was. And you have to justify those two things. [00:40:07] Speaker C: So Jack, you asked, you know, did Jesus introduce a shift? Is he the changing of the guard from the old to the new? And I love that. It's, it's mercy the heretic. And it's like, it's because it's heresy. But we follow a lot of that because again, we're scared to know what to do. But did Jesus introduce that shift? Well, Revelation would beg to differ. And we see him coming with the sword. Basically, every time you see him, he's. He's got a sword either coming out of his, like weird terminology, but coming out of his mouth, or he's carrying a sword, whatever it may be. AD 70, you look at, at God's wrath on the Jewish people for rejecting Christ, which I think is really culminated in A.D. 70. Yeah, I mean, if you, it depends on how you read Revelation. Revelation being either toward AD 70, kind of the AD 69 or 80, 96, it's flipped one or the other. Is it written about AD 70 or is it written about the fall of Rome? And either way you read it, you're seeing Christ conquering, and you're seeing a very definitive conquering. And then you also look at Judgment Day. And Judgment Day would show that God still plans to hold there's wrath towards sin and towards sinners who don't have their faith put in Christ, who don't have the seal of the Holy Spirit. [00:41:20] Speaker A: Somebody would say toward that, well, okay, yeah, but that's God taking his vengeance. Romans 12. And we're not to take our vengeance. I think that's more specifically as an answer to the whole, well, Jesus wouldn't carry a gun. Jesus wouldn't carry a sword. It depends on the purpose. The purpose of his time on earth, he knew was to go to the cross. This, this is why I'm here. He told the apostles that multiple times, even though they didn't want to hear it. But that doesn't mean that everything is the exact same, that everything falls under that same mission, that nobody can ever defend their family because Jesus didn't defend himself. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Can I bring this up too? And then go ahead. If this is a complete sidebar or something that's not really an application, then just let me know. Either that or we can just move on quickly. Jesus felt like his father's temple was being abused in a way. And so what did he do? He defended that. Now, did he defend it with violence? No, not, you know, not harming anybody. Yeah, but what is, what is, what is. What is flipping tables? If you go in and start flipping tables somewhere, you know you're gonna get stopped pretty quick. And, you know, people could look at that as violence. Again, I'm not trying to say Jesus used violence, but Jesus was very defensive of his father's temple. Jesus, he went in and he used force, I guess is my point there. Maybe violence is not the right word. He used force. And this picture of Jesus that we belabored before, this is not something new of the Lamb Jesus, this, Jesus, that is, you know, never going to say anything forceful, never going to turn anybody away. That is Jack, I think in the who Let the Dogma podcast, which you should go to, go and subscribe to, by the way. You use the term wimpy Jesus. That's kind of the, that's kind of the. The view of Jesus. A lot of people have again, go back and read that Jesus, he had the whip, he's flipping tables, he used force. And again, that, that's, that's a. Not an exact application to what we're talking about here. But I think it does apply. [00:43:17] Speaker C: I think also going back to the Old Testament, looking at where Jesus or where God put his spirit on people, they're defending the Israelites, right, versus everybody else. So you look at Samson, the spirit of God comes down on Samson to take what, a donkey's jaw, jawbone or whatever, and to slaughter like how many Philistines. Just ridiculous amount this. The Spirit comes on David to kill Goliath. The Spirit's coming down, I think, on Gideon, right? And they're killing thousands of Midianites like this is. And it's all in defense of God's people, God's remnant, God's. God's covenant people. And so I think the, the principle set out there is God's spirit is actually or is absolutely given those situations to. To both defend and to fulfill covenant and to fulfill promise. So, yes, the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament is the exact same God. We may go about some things differently. We're not under the old lie, recognize that. But I think it's Just to say that those who want to appeal to basically Marcionism like that they're two different gods and that the, the which is a little bit of John Piper. He's not, I know he doesn't believe that but in all functionality like of his article kind of he separates. Well we don't see in the New Testament, we certainly see it in the Old. So I want to bring it down to now practical scenarios. We discussed some of these. Some of these we're going to get through fairly fast because again we've given some discussion on these already. But fellas, let's get into practical scenarios. So government persecution, practically speaking, what does this look like specifically in terms of self defense? [00:44:49] Speaker B: I think this is where the, the first Peter passages and you look at Paul and, and the way that the apostles went about continuing to try to spread the gospel. Government persecute Christ. Christ tells us we should expect to be persecuted. And I think there is an appropriate point there that's made that look, he doesn't say, yeah, expect to be persecuted and go ahead and lash back at him, go ahead and strike back at him. And so again I don't think that that applies to the other scenarios that we're going to get into, but for this specific one, yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. That's First Timothy 4 I believe. Jack, correct me if I'm wrong, but for that I do believe that there is something to the aspect of we should expect that and we should certainly not be lashing back out in violence against those who are inflicting that persecution in the same way that Peter didn't, in the same way that Paul didn't. [00:45:46] Speaker A: I think that's also one of the other things of like to some people everything is still the first century. We've talked before about the people who really think persecution is like the ideal state of the church. And man, if we ever get any kind of cultural influence or anything like that, boy we messed up somehow. And the church does best under persecution. We need to always like be almost throwing ourselves in front of the bus to get persecuted. That's not necessarily true. When you are in that situation, nonviolence is the answer. You know, that's what the early church went through. Many, many of them put to death, thrown to the lions, all the things that we know of. And that was there was no point at which they're like alright, we're gonna get together a militia and go take down Rome. Because that's not how it's Done. And so when we see our Christian brethren in the Middle east, in China and these places where there's persecution. Yeah, it's not for them to rise up. It's not for them to strike back in those situations, but we aren't in that situation. And I think a lot of Christians treat this scenario as. It's exactly the same thing. But when you've come to a place where Christianity has some cultural favor and it's not the same thing, and maybe there's a push towards trying to shove you back into that persecution again, it's not something we should get a militia and go try and overthrow D.C. but on the other hand, using the outlets we have, you know, working with your sheriff, things like that, to make sure, hey, we're not going to have what happened in Canada where guys got arrested for keeping their church building open. Right. We're, you know, like, advocate for that. But if that does come to pass, okay, that's the scenario we're in. We obey God rather than man as far as can be. And. And you work that situation out. [00:47:29] Speaker B: It's second Timothy 3. [00:47:30] Speaker A: There is a. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Not first Timothy 4. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Timothy 4 didn't sound right, but I didn't know the exact. To call you on it. We are. We need to take better notes next time, fellas. We're getting there eventually. But there's a very big difference between government persecution and individual attacks. You know, if the government marches into your church building and says, everyone's going to jail because you were in church, that's one thing. If a mentally disturbed person walks in and says, I'm going to just start shooting people, that's a whole different scenario. People really treat these. Exactly. [00:48:08] Speaker B: It's irresponsible to treat them the same. It's very irresponsible. [00:48:11] Speaker A: It is, right. Yeah. It's not in the principle because again, that whole, like, well, we don't spread, you know, gospel by. By weapons of war. And. Yeah, that's true. And we don't. We're not trying to conquer governments. That Jesus was saying in John 18, which is exactly true. That is what he was saying. And so fighting back against a governing authority to try and wrest that authority away from them would be doing that. Letting one lunatic walk in and mow everybody down is not doing the same thing. It's not turning down the opportunity to take over a government. It's just protecting people from that one situation. And so, I mean, it was not very far. It was an hour down the road in Fort Worth where our brethren had somebody Walk in around Christmas 2020, I believe, and start firing. And I think two or three of the. The Christians there stood up, shot back, ended the threat. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. That I am fully on board with that in this scenario. And so I'll put that to you guys. We talked government persecution. What about the church shooter situation? If. Are you okay with it, and if so, why? [00:49:16] Speaker C: Well, I think the. The concept of somebody, again, a single man coming in. Well, now's the time to evangelize. No, I'm sorry, but we also live in a very different world as well, where it's not first century, where Christianity is novel. If he wanted to know about Christianity, free Bible on your app, you know, or a free Bible app, like, if. [00:49:35] Speaker A: You want, there's a church building, you know. [00:49:37] Speaker C: Correct. If he really wanted to come in to get evangelized, he'd come in without the gun. And, you know, so, I mean, like, it's not to say that his life or soul doesn't matter, but he's choosing to take it into his own hands when he comes into a building, hopefully with armed people. And once again, I go back to. The government gave you the right for those concealed carriers. Who's gone through it. You have to have a permit, Right. The government gave you an extension. Because if you're waiting. Correct? Because if you're waiting for the police to get there, I'm sorry, but the police have hardly ever stopped a shooting like that, especially as we see in Uvalde, where that is their job from God. Like, they are the ones charged in Romans 13 to stop. To run in and stop the man. Not even an individual so much. [00:50:22] Speaker A: It might be five minutes. Everyone's dead at that point. But where they were there, they didn't go in, right? [00:50:27] Speaker B: No. No disagreement. Yeah. [00:50:29] Speaker A: This is the pie. This is the pietism thing, you know, of. Well, what about his soul? Like, yeah, he's got a soul, but he's putting that on the line. I mean, you think again, using the Old Testament, there are a lot of people who gave their souls up in, you know, Goliath. What about Goliath's soul? David shouldn't have. David did evangelize. [00:50:48] Speaker B: They use their free will to basically forfeit their soul. Right. And the bird placing that burden on you as somebody who's trying to defend all the other souls. And again, we're getting into kind of imaginary scenarios here. What if there's a member of somebody in the church whose soul is not right with God and you allow that again, maniac to shoot him, are you? Then does the burden for their soul go on your shoulders? So you get into. When you. When you start getting into that type of stuff, it's like, no, that person who decided to come into a church building or a school or whatever and start shooting, they've taken their free will and decided to forfeit their soul with it. For you to place that burden on somebody who's trying to defend his family and everybody else and say, well, look what you just did to their soul. No, you didn't. Again, very, very irresponsible to make that application when, again, there might be somebody in the church building who's not right with God and you allow their soul to go into eternity unprepared. And so, again, when somebody makes that argument or tries to go that direction, very, very dangerous for somebody to do that. [00:51:49] Speaker A: I want to make one other thing on this one, though. With the idea of protecting the people in the church building, there are people who will say, no, we shouldn't do that. You know, like that. Okay. The last two years, two and a half years, at this point, it's dragged on. We've had. I mean, immediately when the COVID threat came, elders got together and said, what do we got to do? And when they reopened their buildings, the ones that closed for a while said, we've got to tape off pews to separate people. We've got to get the little, you know, styrofoam communion cup things, you know, so that everyone's not passing the trays and spreading germs and, you know, masks in the auditorium and all of the kind of things that people took on because the elders realized, we got to try and keep people safe if they're going to come into this building. And then the idea of, oh, but unless somebody comes in to shoot them, then we don't have any duty to protect. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Just say that out loud. Say it out loud. Test. [00:52:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I really want to. When I spoke in Iowa a couple weeks ago, they had a incredible security plan where the doors all locked right after worship started. They had a guy that was there. They funneled everyone to one door. If you're going to come in, you got to come knock on this door. There's somebody there that's security. He's watching cameras. He. He can watch the worship from the next room over, but he's. He's keeping an eye on things because they took that seriously of, you know what? We've. We just have had reason to be concerned about somebody walking in off the street. You know that we don't trust. And so we've got this situation set up, we've got this scenario. I'm for it. I think it's great. I don't think there's something holier about letting Christian sit in the pews and just get mowed down and, and all right, line up guys and then shoot us. Let's preach him the gospel by, you know, all right, you know, little, little Timmy, go first, your three year old, shoot him in the head. [00:53:30] Speaker C: This is, it's about neutralizing the threat. I think we're not looking to make the guy look like Swiss cheese and to take out our vengeance. It's neutralized, it's putting down the threat. If he's coming in with a gun, you shoot him. He's coming with a knife, you shoot him. And you know, so we can't shoot anybody else. Maybe you put the knife away. We're not trying to kill him at all costs as. But if killing him is necessary to defend everybody, you betcha, you betcha, right? It's, it's not about taking vengeance, it's about protection. In that moment, there's no anger, there's no malice, there's no hatred toward the man. It's like, no, I just really love my family and my church family and I'm not going to let them get mowed down. So I think that's the heart behind it, is, has to be there as well. We're not trying to hate the man. We're trying to say, but I love my family. And if I can shoot him and neutralize it and then, you know, take him to the hospital, he's saved, he goes to prison, he gets converted. Fantastic. That's, that's, that's great. But if he's refusing to go down until he's killed, that's what it's going to take. So I really think it's about the threat, neutralizing the threat to the best of our ability. So let's go on to the next one. That's government persecution. That's a church shooter. Home intrusion. We've talked about this one. That seems pretty, I don't know that we have a whole lot to say other than, I mean, come on, it's your family. Like if you have somebody coming in, you betcha. Again, it's going to be the same. I will neutralize the threat by any means. And if I have to club the guy over the head with a baseball bat, you know, then I'm going to do that, whatever it takes. I don't think you're wrong to defend your family because that's how you're spreading the love of Christ to your family. I do love my wife more than I love the murderer coming in, and I'm not ashamed of that. People may get ticked and say, well, how could you? You're supposed to love your neighbor. No, I'm praying for those who persecute me. I'll try to bless them. But you know what? I'm also not. I'm going to bless my wife and my blessing. My wife is me taking dominion and protecting what God has rightfully given me. The same way that. That I think every husband should. So home intrusion for me is really, really basic on this point. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Again, I would ask those who would say no self defense, where do you. Where do you draw the line? Is it on killing somebody? Typically, no, it's. You can't inflict any harm. Again, let's go back. Tragic story. The woman, Eliza Fletcher, who was kidnapped and murdered, are you. Those who would advocate for the side of no self defense, are they seriously trying to say that she or somebody standing close by. We were talking off air, as Jack brought up, had no right to punch back at the guy, have no right to again do anything to try to defend. Just let it happen again. It's the say it out loud test. Say that out loud that this woman who was kidnapped, brutally murdered, she had no right to defend herself or somebody else who might have witnessed it. They had no right to do anything towards that psycho. [00:56:07] Speaker C: Again. [00:56:08] Speaker B: It just doesn't make. Again, this is the common sense side of things. Once again, right? [00:56:11] Speaker C: Is. Is a slap? Okay. Is pepper spray okay? [00:56:14] Speaker B: If her knife. [00:56:15] Speaker A: Okay? [00:56:16] Speaker C: Like draw the line. [00:56:16] Speaker B: He have done anything the self. If you want to fully subscribe to the no self defense, what could he have done? Oh, we'll call the cops. Okay. How's that gonna go for you? And so again, for the home intrusion thing, defending your family, I don't think there's a lot of debate there. Jack, what do you have to add? [00:56:31] Speaker A: Why? So the Piper thing he brought up, you know, we don't react from anger, hate, or fear. And it reminds me of the Chesterton quote about, you know, the soldier doesn't fight because he hates what's in front of him. He loves what's behind him. And. And that's what this is about. It's not, oh, anger, fear. Oh, man, I just want to kill this guy. I want to protect my family. That's motivation number one. And so when you're reading that in of Christians shouldn't operate in hate and fear. No, it's. It's operating out of love. And that really is the softness of this pietism thing, is love only ever means coddling people. And, you know, I always hate it when people say, well, what would the world think? You know, the world is watching. That's not a standard for anything. But a lot of people will appeal to that. Okay, put that in this one. The world lets you, you know, stand. Stand by and watch as your family is killed and you come out of it going, boy, I sure showed the love of Christ here like. No, the other thing. [00:57:20] Speaker C: You're coward. [00:57:21] Speaker A: I think some people really bristle against the home invasion thing. Oh, come on. It's ridiculous. How often does that ever happen? Okay, so here's a real one. I've got two boys, two girls. Kids on the playground are mean to each other. They hit, they punch, they bite, whatever. Let's say there's a bigger kid that comes up, you know, a few years down the road, my little girl is out on the playground, and a bigger kid comes up and starts bullying or pushes her over, pushing her off the swing, knocks her down, starts hitting her. What do I tell my son? I can tell him, go get. You know, let's say this person's kicking my kid in the head. You know, like kicking his sister in the head. Do. Okay, well, run and get a parent. Okay, well, it might be three minutes of getting kicked in the head before a parent can come back, stand there and tell them that that's not the way of Christ, that's not the love of Jesus. Or do I tell my son, you tackle that kid and get him off your sister, and again, you're not there to inflict pain. I think, Joe, your point is well taken. And this is one that goes back to Christian just war theory of sufficient to end the threat, sufficient to neutralize the threat, do what it takes to stop it from happening. You don't go beyond that. You don't get sadistic. You don't. Because that would show a heart that's in the wrong place, but enough to make sure this stops and doesn't keep happening. And that's what I'm gonna teach my son. It is your job to protect your sister in that situation. Both of my boys of, if you see this, or really any girl, if there's a little girl that you don't even know getting picked on, kicked, beaten up by another kid, put a stop to it. And that's a good thing. That is a right thing. That is why God created men. We talked something about our masculinity podcast is that doing hard things, standing up and protecting the weaker and all of those things we're called to do. And so if it's okay for it to happen on that little level, again, a real world thing that does happen pretty, you know, relatively frequently of kids getting into it on the playground, you know, so yeah, it's not some, oh, well, maybe somebody will come into my house at some point in the middle of the night. Yeah, maybe not. Most people never experience that. You want in the situations that do happen, somebody who can do something about it. And so yeah, you know, teach your kids that. And it's okay to teach your kids that. It is not holier to tell them, stand by and let your little sister get kicked in the head. [00:59:28] Speaker C: So let's. Drives me crazy. 1000% agree. But you had mentioned in there. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, but you had mentioned in there. Interesting. You know, the war, Chesterton, with the war. And I'm curious, moving on to the next practical scenario. Should Christians go to war? As we're talking pacifism, I think this is the time to bring it up. And like you said, technically, if we want to get into pacifism, this is really where you see it as Christians shouldn't go to war. And it's not always just the self defense. That's a. Maybe an offshoot of pacifism. But either way, should Christians go to war? Practically speaking, are we okay to do so? I always jump to. I'll step in and answer. I always jump to. First off, we see Cornelius as the first, the first gentile convert. Being a centurion. I don't see Peter ever condemning him for being a centurion. I don't see him having to turn his life around to change. I don't see any of that stuff. I don't see a flipping jailer that way. I don't see the soldiers coming to John the Baptist early on. I don't see John saying, hey, you need to leave the service and get out. No, make sure that you're using whatever place God has put you in. Use it for good and not for evil. And so I think if going to war, being in the army, whatever, if that was wrong, then I think that those would have been perfect opportunities to let them know that they're wrong. And we don't see that. [01:00:45] Speaker B: I think this is obviously a topic that we could spend a whole episode on. So I won't spend too much time here. I think it's significant that Paul in second Timothy two. We've been in Timothy a lot for this episode. [01:00:58] Speaker C: Are we sure it's 2 Timothy 2? [01:01:00] Speaker B: I'm looking right at it. [01:01:01] Speaker C: Yes. [01:01:02] Speaker A: We finally did our homework on one. [01:01:03] Speaker C: Hey, there we go. [01:01:04] Speaker B: Yes, but he uses this idea of warfare and a soldier in a very positive light. It seems as though if that was something that Christians should not at all be a part of, why would he use that in a positive manner? You know what I mean? Like when, when we're, we preach on occasion, when we're looking for sermon analogies or metaphors, we're typically not using the things that we probably shouldn't be doing. Right. As our, as our positive examples. Well, Paul in 2nd Timothy 2, he uses a soldier as a verse. [01:01:31] Speaker A: 4. [01:01:31] Speaker B: No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life that it may please him who is in listed him as a soldier. Again, he's talking spiritual things there. But the, but he uses a real life example of a soldier being involved in warfare. And he doesn't condemn that. He doesn't say, you know, this is something that we shouldn't be doing. But let me go ahead and use the analogy here. [01:01:49] Speaker A: He doesn't say a bank robber prepares himself. [01:01:52] Speaker C: Right, exactly. [01:01:53] Speaker B: He uses. And then he goes on to use an athlete and then he goes on to use a farmer. And so that's something small. Again, we could go in on this one for a while, but I did want to bring that up because I think it's important Paul chose to use that example in a positive light rather than, again, like you said, the bank robber analogy. He didn't use something that we typically don't that he wouldn't use in a negative light. [01:02:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree with that. So Christian, just war theory. We've talked about a little bit of the defensive wars or, you know, defensive can be if there's an imminent threat, you know, you don't have to be shot first to make it happen. But if it's happening, the problem is there's a valid time and a place for it. I'm not sure how much of a valid time and a place we have right now. And especially look at the military, all the wokeness, the, the LGBT stuff they're bringing in. It is not a values friendly kind of place. Their priorities, the things they're fighting for. The other thing is, I mean, you just look at the, the history of war and American wars and how they can try and make anything look defensive, but boy, it's. There was one. I Think it was in 2012 or 13 where they wanted to bomb someplace. It was in Syria, some bombing campaign they wanted to have, and public opinion was strongly against it. And all of a sudden all these headlines came out about the Al Qaeda spin off the Khorasan group. The Khorasan group, they're more dangerous than Al Qaeda. They could, you know, nuke nuclear New York City. Nuke New York City. They could, you know, make this threat. They could, you know, the Khorasan group, they're the worst ones we've seen yet. So we've got to go in and bomb these people. And so, of course, the polls went, oh, yeah, we got to do this. The support totally changed. And next thing you know, they just disappeared, basically never been mentioned again. I mean, if you Google them, it was something they essentially invented so they could have the justification to go in and do this bombing campaign that wasn't popular. And so, man, with that kind of stuff happening, and way more often than you think, you know, the, the Iraqi babies and incubators in the 19 or the Kuwaiti babies in 1991, there's a lot of fabricated stuff. So, no, we don't fight a lot of defensive wars. And so that's hard to justify the state of the military right now. I would counsel a Christian right now. Don't join this particular military at this time. That doesn't mean. There's never a time or a place. That doesn't mean. [01:04:19] Speaker C: If you're. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Go ahead. [01:04:21] Speaker C: I would say if you're in the military, you know, do it to God's glory. [01:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, if you're a contract, you can't do anything about it. [01:04:28] Speaker C: Exactly. And I don't think you're sinning if you're in the military. But I would. Yeah, I'm with you. I would strongly caution against joining the military at this particular moment. But you're going to get a lot of upset people going, well, we have to defend the country. And to your point, I think it's like, I don't want them instituting a draft. So it's one of those, like, the way that I get out of a draft is by more people enlisting. And so that sounds really selfish. Me to make basically be like, I don't want to draft, but I also don't want to, you know, I don't think people should list. So I see where people might get frustrated or upset at that. But I just, I agree with you that we haven't really had too many. A little bit, but we haven't had too many, just wars. If we're going to go off of that theory. And I don't think it's right to be a warmongering people, per se. And so, yeah, that's a. Should Christians go to war? That's a personal, you know, kind of the check your heart principle. I think it's a personal decision you have to make. But there are some things that I would certainly consider first. [01:05:21] Speaker A: First, I'd say there's a time and a place. Sure. Yeah, sure. [01:05:25] Speaker B: All right, so last question and then we're going to go ahead and wrap can slash, should. And those are two different questions. Is it permissible for a Christian to have a carry permit? To carry a concealed. To have a concealed carry. To carry a weapon with them? Again, can and should is what we have on our outline. Those are two different questions. So I will kick it to one of you two to start. Is that something that a Christian first of all can do? And then I was watching in preparation for this. There are some people that have argued that Christians not only can, but they should, that it's called a, they called it a civic duty. I think it was Doug Wilson that used that phrase, civic duty to, to carry that so that you can protect those around you, so that you can protect your family. Guys, what do we have to say to this one? This is the, the last question on our outline here. One, the one that certainly hot button, because I know a lot of our listeners probably carry and I know members of my family do. So. Joe, we'll start with you. [01:06:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Can they carry? Absolutely. That's as we've already talked about. The government has given you the ability. They have created a permit process by which you may carry. So can you carry? Absolutely. Should you carry? Once I'm with you, I got family members that do. I've looked into it myself. I've taken the class. So that's a personal anecdote. Should they carry, though? I don't see a problem if you don't. I don't think you're wrong. And if you do, I don't think you're wrong. I think that's a personal preference. But the ability to be. It's one of those better safe than sorry. Like I enjoy going to a church and I don't think we have it here, though maybe this will be set up. I know we have gentlemen who do carry in this church, but where I came from back in Colorado, we had the same thing. Locked door with a video camera and a man who carried in the back just in case. And boy, does that feel Nice because we have homeless people just down the street where we were, and we get some seedy characters walking in, we give them benevolence and such, but you never knew. And so, yeah, I was. I felt a lot safer knowing story on that. [01:07:20] Speaker B: The congregation that Joe currently preaches, that I used to preach there, and there was one Sunday where we did have this guy come in off the street, young guy, just kind of had to put this nicely. He kind of had something off about him, something that just made everybody uncomfortable. He raised his hand in the middle of my sermon to ask a question that, you know, typically questions don't get asked in sermons. So that was, that was pretty odd. But, man, when I was preaching, it was one of those things, man, this is just super uncomfortable. But you know how good it made me feel to know that my dad, I think, was in the audience and there were two or three others in the audience that had that concealed carry, that that threat would be neutralized pretty quickly in that tiny of a building. But yeah, no, Joe, I'm with you. And sorry, Jack, I kind of cut in front of you there, but I'm with you as far as should they. That I think that's an option, a decision that each individual should make. I don't think we should cast. Cast aspersions on anybody who chooses not to, but can they? I would say certainly. Jack, what do you have to add? [01:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think, I think the should, you know, does fall to some Christians that like, if. If you can and you feel capable of it, feel, you know, level headed enough to do so, which, I mean, it is very leveling influence when you've got, you know, that serious responsibility. Yeah. You know, you can be a protector. You can be that person. You know, some people will hear those, the stories you guys just gave and say, boy, that, that just shows the issue here. You guys weren't thinking about that guy's soul. You're thinking about. No, you are. He's in the auto, you know, it's like nobody. It's not like everyone got their guns out and ready. You know, when a guy like that walks in, I'm like, all right, buddy, back out the door and don't hurt anybody. [01:08:56] Speaker B: We didn't keep him out. [01:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you know, well, and I'm sure everyone was friendly to him, shook hands. Hey, who are you? I'm, you know, I'm Will. I'm Joe whoever. You know, we've had situations. Another very similar weird situation at a church. I preached that a While back. And it's one of those things of, you know what? I'm actually better equipped to evangelize when I know this guy's not gonna be able to just come in and shoot my family when I know that we've got things in place to where that threat is not gonna be a problem. And, okay, now let's just. We can talk to the guy. We can be friendly to the guy. And so it's. It's a false dichotomy to say you're either thinking about his soul or your personal safety. Let's just do all those things, and that way, you don't have to worry about it. [01:09:38] Speaker C: We had one at Miller Street. Everybody must have one of these stories, because we have one of those. And the guy walked in, but he had a backpack, and he kept reaching in. Real shady guy. And he kept reaching into his backpack, like, five or six times during the service. Oh, man, I was sweating puddles. And I don't think I paid one word of attention to. You know, I know nothing of what Brett preached, and nor did any guy in the audience. I was looking the guys, and we're all like, oh, yeah. Every time he reached in, it's like, what's in there? Because he looked like he hadn't showered in. In two weeks and was looking real rough, young man. And of course, again, we are cordial. We are nice. Got his name, shakes hand. But holy smokes, you talk about scary. And once again, we had three or four guys carrying, and, boy, did that feel good. So. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Okay, well, now I got to give my story. You guys have all. You've taken your time. [01:10:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:25] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. What happened? [01:10:26] Speaker A: We were having Lord's supper. This guy walked in in a big motorcycle jacket, like, a big puffy jacket. You know, in some of these shootings, people have had, like, body armor on or on or whatever. And it kind of almost looked like he did. Walked in, set his helmet down right at the front door, like, at the door where you walk into the auditorium, walked straight down the aisle to the altar where the Lord's supper is stopped, set something on the table, and turned around, looked at all of us, and then walked right back out. [01:10:54] Speaker C: What? [01:10:54] Speaker A: And it was a dollar he set on the table. Well, me and another guy jumped up. And again, thankfully, this brother carries. And, you know, he had done church security before. We followed him out. And we're like, hey, you know, stay around. Worship with us. What's your name? Can we, you know, can I get a visitor card from you? You know, like, we were trying to reach out to him in that way. But it was also very like, what's. What was that all about? And he just said, well, you know, I. I had a debt to pay. And. But then what was scary is as he turns to walk away and go back to his motorcycle, he says, I'll be back. Never saw him again. Never saw him again. I was gonna say Arnold on the table. And so again, it was peace of mind to know, you know what, he's not gonna be able to come in and just mow the whole church building down. But we reached out, we tried to say, hey, what's your name? Can we talk to you? You know what, what's your interest in the church? All of those things. But also like, hey, what was that all about? So, yeah, that's my story. [01:11:51] Speaker C: Well, Jack's like. Jack's like, what an opportunity. Make my day. [01:11:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, opportunity. Yes, that's what it is. [01:11:59] Speaker C: So. So let's finish up here because. Okay, so can Christians. I think you should do it legally. Let me just say that. I think you should do it legally. I think, you know, just pistol whipping people and you don't have a permit. And, well, this is my right to carry because I'm an American, you know, right to bear arms. Look, don't, don't be a jerk about it. Go about the legal method. If you can. If you're 16 carrying a BB gun, that's one thing. If you're 16, carrying a Glock. No. Like, I think you need to go through the legal channels that the government has set up. And the other thing that I would say, going back to where we started, I can't tell you what to do. Please don't be the guy who straps an AR15 to his back to look cool because, well, I can. It's the right bear arms. Like, for what reason? For what point? Is it intended to be intimidating? Are you intended to look really cool? Look like a bad man, pajama? I don't know, but I don't think that's the spirit that you want to have. Especially is where, you know, the concealed carry, it's for self defense. I'm fine with that. I think making a big show of it, going back to where we started. That's my personal opinion. Fellas, I don't know if you have anything to add, but that's. That's kind of where I'm at with it, is the other thing is the practicality of somebody comes in and you have to like, pull that thing around and cock it and load it and like, it's. It's not even practical. It's to look cool, in my opinion. And I don't see the use in that. [01:13:13] Speaker B: Well, and I'll just say, I mean, either way, I think it should be obvious. This should not be, in my opinion, a major fellowship issue. If me and Joe, if Joe was a pacifist, I'm not going to, you know, break fellowship with him. I'm not going to say, well, you know, I'm not going to worship in the same building as you. So I would encourage those. Again, as I started out, this is a topic that, especially those on the self defense defense side get very up in arms and defensive, pardon the pun here. [01:13:38] Speaker C: About up in arms. [01:13:39] Speaker B: Up in arms. Yeah, exactly. About their position and, you know, just really kind of browbeat the other side. I would encourage everybody, again, stand your ground, like use scripture and stand your ground on what you believe the Bible says and what, obviously what we believe the Bible says about self defense, but don't make it a bigger issue. You know, if you, if your brother chooses not to carry and you choose to carry, let it be. You know, it is enough, as Jesus said. But, guys, anything else to add before we wrap up this episode on self defense? All right, we thank you very much for listening. As always, we invite comments, we invite feedback. Tactful, of course, but hit us up on Facebook, the Think Deeper page, if you have. If you have not liked that on Facebook, go search for that Think Deeper pod and like that page. That's where you'll get a lot of the updates about upcoming episodes and things like that. And as we have said, I think twice now, Jack. It's a new podcast with Daniel Mayfield and Jacob Rutledge, who let the Dogma out. First episode was fantastic. I listened the other day. I would highly recommend it. It is different than Think Deeper, so don't think you're going to go there and get the exact same thing. But it's really good listen and I'm looking forward to the upcoming episodes. So go subscribe to that. We really appreciate everybody who listens and again, the feedback and comments that we get. So go ahead, Jack. [01:14:56] Speaker A: We're gonna announce another new podcast next week. A whole different focus, whole different direction. So our network is expanding. That one is gonna be Joe going solo, shorter podcast. Very, very useful, very needed. And so we're excited. [01:15:12] Speaker B: Is it gonna be called Hot Takes with Joe? That's what I want to know. [01:15:15] Speaker C: I wish I should have, I should have. And I just dunk on people And. And people hate me. And I get two listeners. My wife and maybe one of you guys. [01:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:22] Speaker A: Not me. Maybe. [01:15:24] Speaker C: Exactly. I'll pay Will to listen. Please, please. [01:15:28] Speaker B: No, but seriously, some exciting things. I know last week Jack mentioned some of those things in our introduction. But some exciting things going on at Focus Press. So we will. I encourage you to stay tuned for that. Sign up for the email list and all those things. But again, thank you very much for listening. We will be back next week with another episode of Think Deep.