Women, Kids, and More Questions About Prayer

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of the Think Deeper podcast. I'm your co host, will here joined by Jack and Joe Wilkie. And it's presented by Focus Press. I almost always forget to say that. Think deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Super excited about the episode we've got today. We'll get to that in just a second. I do want to push, um, you know, talk about some of the things that we're doing here at Focus Press. Uh, most people probably already know about our daily devotional books, but if you don't, um, we know that everybody's always looking for good, uh, content to use for family devotions, maybe for individual devotions. We get that question. A lot of, you know, what do I do other than just read? And so focus press does offer several devotional books, uh, the family worship guide that we put together, um, designed specifically for families to do amongst each other, uh, parents with kids. I've got a lot of discussion questions, takes you through various texts, basically throughout the whole bible. So of course, we'd recommend that when we've got individual boys devotional books, individual girls devotional books for teenage boys and girls. And then Joe and Jack have been doing a fantastic job on focus. Plus, with a daily devotional, individual devotional, you can do that. You could do it with your, with your spouse or with your kids as well, but you can also do it individually, thought from scripture every single day. Really, really good. I'd encourage you, again, I don't. I know everybody who's listening is not a focus plus subscriber, but some really good content on there. So if you're looking for some stuff to do, as far as devotionals go, that is what we're offering, uh, for forge. We're going to peel the curtain back for our deep thinkers here. We just got done with probably a half hour. Uh, I'm not even going to call it a discussion. It was very much an argument about, uh, what we ended the last episode on about prayer, about Jesus, prayer in the garden. Um, all of us got very, very passionate and really enjoy. I think, honestly, it's because we don't disagree, hardly ever, about anything. And so when we do, it's so. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Much fun when we do. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Exactly. It's so much fun when we do. And so we are. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:01:58] Speaker C: Just zeal for Joe, just making stuff up that I can't, I can't take. [00:02:02] Speaker B: That's what it is. [00:02:03] Speaker C: That's what it is. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:04] Speaker A: I love doing that. I say that to say we are pretty amped up, pretty fired up about this episode, again, coming off a 30 minutes off air argument here, but we're going to continue, we're going to continue talking about prayer. I'm going to give it to jack to kind of get us into what are we talking about specifically. There's a lot of various questions we're going to cover, might inspire some more disagreement among the three of us about a lot of, a lot of really tough questions here with prayer. And I think that's one of the coolest things about episodes on prayer, is like some people might look at it and say, man, you know, prayer, how deep can you go on this? How, how much, how much, how many podcast minutes can you get out of this? Turns out a lot. Turns out there's a lot of stuff we can get out of this. So Jack, I'll hand it to you. What all are we covering today and what's the significance of it? [00:02:48] Speaker C: Yeah, man, there's some really hard questions. We'll just start on basics of how to pray. Of course, the apostles had that same question, how do we pray? And so Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer, the model prayer, Matthew six, and then it's in Luke. I should look that up before going off the top of my head, I guess. Luke twelve, that sounds right. I don't know why, I just, I always go to it from Matthew. That's Luke eleven. There you go. We're looking real professional with that one. Sorry, guys. So with the Lord's prayer, there's some questions about it that I'd like to get to as far as the kingdom and things like that. One of the first questions I'm going to get to is before we kind of break down the model and taking from that, how to pray is, should we pray this actually word for word? I think that's kind of gotten a lot of negative attention in the church just because of the catholic ritual of that, of you go to confession, you did some things wrong. The priest says, well, just go say the our father prayer. And of course some Hail Marys or whatever say that prayer six times or whatever. It's not superstitious where you say the magic words, but I think because of that, a lot of people think, well, we shouldn't pray that. In fact, Jesus himself in the same context says, don't use vain repetition as the Gentiles do. So what do you guys think about that, of using this as. Obviously we don't think that should be your only prayer that you say every single day. But do you think this is something that Christians should use as a prayer from time to time or even regularly. [00:04:20] Speaker B: The one thing I've heard against it is kind of like updating it, so to speak, which is, you know, your kingdom come, your will be done like the kingdom has come. It's a church right in context, especially Matthew six, that that has been done. Thats a weak argument. Im perfectly fine with people praying and im with you. I dont think the vain repetition, which actually is again right in that context of how the Pharisees pray and how the Catholics pray, id say in a lot of cases thats not what were looking for and thats not at all what Jesus is setting out. Hes setting out the very specifics of praying for your physical needs, praying for your spiritual needs, approaching God with an appropriate heart, praying to be made right in a good relationship with God. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Praise being issued, praise being issued. [00:05:03] Speaker B: I mean, its got all the makings of a great prayer. I have no problem with somebody praying that. And I've heard people get up from the pulpit and just pray that. Um, I don't have a problem with it personally. I think if that's again all you're praying, that would be the only caution. But I don't have a problem with it. [00:05:18] Speaker A: I don't either. I think it's a really good, I'm thinking about my kids. I think it's a great foundation to get kids started off on. As you think about the context of that, it literally is the disciples saying, teach us to pray. And I think that that's kind of the way I've always viewed it, as kind of, here's the foundation. Um. Uh, because as Joe talked about, there's all those elements that are in there of the praise and you know, the, the acknowledgement of God as the father, the petitions, the, the spiritual forgiveness that they're asking for, the physical things like bread. Um, and so yeah, as far as people praying it, I probably plan on using that with my kids when I'm teaching them how to pray, how to approach God. Um, obviously I agree that if that's where our prayers end and that's all we ever do, that's a problem. But yeah, as far as praying that, I mean, it's the words of Jesus, so I, I do not have a problem with that. [00:06:05] Speaker C: I agree. Yeah. And I think it is a really useful thing to pray from time to time, even regularly. Again, don't make it vain repetition, because a, the elements that are there are good, but each of the phrases is really loaded with meaning. You think about our father who art in heaven, and that's the relational thing we talked about last week, that the Old Testament, they didn't really call him father in that way. And so he is our father. And so you're asking something of your father, and there's a real love there. Hallowed be your name. And so it's like father, but it's not the, and I think we're going to talk about this a little bit. Not the daddy thing, you know, the very informal, casual, you know, oh, hey, you know, the big guy upstairs. I got a request for you. It's not that at all. It's father who I love and loves me and cares for me. Hallowed, you're, you're separate. You're different from me. And so you've got a good point, again, loaded things like that. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That tells you kingdom living is about doing, you know, trying to make your own life and surrounding, you know, whatever influence you have be like it would be in heaven doing God's will in all things. And so all of those, like, if you're just vainly repeating them. Yeah, it's. If you're vainly repeating anything, it's no good. But if you're really thinking through what's being said there, it's really powerful stuff, which, I mean, as you said, it came from Jesus. That shouldn't surprise us. [00:07:23] Speaker B: One of the things that frustrates me the most. So we don't, once again, kudos to the church. Christ. I don't think I've ever seen this at church Christ. But you start to see this in some of the denominations and specifically in the non denominational kind of, uh, community church. Dear daddy God, you know, daddy, we, we just, we're so good. Pump the brakes. That's not at all how we approach God, you know, and they take it from this of the Abba father. Right. Like, this is personal relationship. But that's what Jesus is talking about, is we should. It's very much him saying, daddy, no, it is not. That's not what the Lord's prayer is talking about. And to your point, Jack, glad you brought that up. Hallowed be your name. You are holy, you are in heaven. I'm not like, that's very much the, before we, we kick into anything else. Give us this day our daily bread. Your will be done anything. We get our relationship with God right first, which is you're God and I'm not. When we have this daddy God, you know, when we're approaching him in that way. [00:08:18] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:08:18] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know your guys, I know your guys thoughts on this, but I don't know what else you'd add to it. But, man, that alone just starting off on the prayer frustrates me to know. And that people take Abba father and think that they can approach God by calling him dad or daddy. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Here's what, here's what I would ask, because obviously I agree. I have never addressed God that way. Don't ever plan to. So obviously that was something that is, we would view as far too casual, that there needs to be, you know, a level of formality to what you're doing. Do you guys think, and I think I know your answer, but do you guys think that contradicts because you always hear people when they talk about pray without ceasing and, you know, the, the relationship, we have a God that you should just be able to talk to God about your day. Think, you know, just think out loud to God. Just kind of always just almost treat God as a, you know, buddy, almost that you can just kind of talk to and, you know, share and this and that. That seems pretty casual also, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, Joe, your next question. Is getting on our knees a requirement? Well, you know, I can't get on my knees when I'm driving. I can't get on my knees, you know, when I'm just doing the, again, what a lot of people say we should be doing, which is just kind of sharing our thoughts with God. God, thank you for da da da. No, God, I'm really struggling with this. Is there, what is the balance there? Because obviously, again, what a lot of people would recommend, I do feel like is pretty casual, though I'm not necessarily saying it's, it's wrong, but again, in, in the context what we just talked about, too much casualty or casualness, casualties means death. That's what I'm talking about. But, like, too much casualness can be a problem. And so what do you guys, what would you guys say to that again? Like the, the thinking out loud to God, kind of just, you know, sharing your day with him. Like, what do you guys think about that? [00:09:58] Speaker C: I think the heart is just at the center of the whole thing and some of the casual. Yeah, the casualness, a good catch there. Not tea that Joe was referencing is much different than just kind of having the ongoing or having the, the short prayers or whatever. I mean, you can do that in a heart of perfect reverence and acknowledgement of that and so I think that would be a pretty clear distinction when somebody's doing one or the other. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Abraham's called friend of God. We see Moses talking with God as a friend. Um, that does happen, you know, and we do see that, but they're at no point do we see an irreverence to it. At no point do we see them forget their place. And it's very much like, you know, I was thinking in olden times, the idea of being a friend of the kings, you don't just get to smart off at the mouth, as they say. Like, you don't just get to call a king. Hey, dude, how's it going? Whoa, whoa. Remember who you were talking to. That reverence would have been there even if you were good friends with the king, even if you were advisor to the king. We watch the old tv shows or whatever it is where they kind of have that. You always remember who you are in presence of the king. Well, I'd very much say that's the case here. Doesn't mean you can't be friends with him. Doesn't mean you can't speak openly about those things. But the reverence there of recognizing I'm talking to the great. I am one of the most humbling passages of the Bible for me and one that I've gone to, and I think I've heard Francis Chan and others preach on this and make some good points on it. You go to revelation four and five. Look at how the cherubim. Look at how the angels are approaching God. [00:11:27] Speaker C: Holy, holy, holy. [00:11:28] Speaker B: They've been saying this for hundreds and hundreds of years, right? All up in heaven. I don't know if there's years in heaven. Whatever it is. We know that they are. They are saying this over and over and they're repeating it. Never gets old. They are praising God. They're saying, worthy are you right now. They're saying this to Christ. And that's kind of the point of revelation five. As Christ is ascending and all of these things. There's such a reverence to this, such a holiness to that moment that the thought of when I go into prayer, it doesn't mean I need to be scared of God at all times, but that does need to be on my mind of like. And the point that Francis Chan specifically makes is if an angel came into your church, an angel of God stepped into your church. We probably do as John and as Peter and others did, which is bow down to him and he goes, whoa, you don't bow down to me, right? You bow down to Christ. But we would look at it and go, that is a holy being. Not fully holy, not totally. God is holy. Right. And so an angel we would be dumbfounded by, and those incredible creatures are the ones that are bowing down to God, saying, holy, holy, holy, and not even showing, you know, like putting the wings above their eyes so they don't even look at him, putting it, covering their feet because of how holy he is. Yeah, we want to make sure we get that one right. So when we go to approach God, that's why I think it's so important getting back to the Lord's prayer, why he starts that way. Hallowed be thy name. You have to start with God's holiness before anything happens in prayer, in my opinion. And that's where the daddy gets. Goes wrong. The daddy, God goes wrong. [00:12:49] Speaker C: I wanted to say to that specific point, because, I mean, Abba does mean something. And so that's where people get that idea, is that Abba for them, that's what, you know, little children would call their father. But my wife Allison made a great point about this when we were discussing it the other day of, there's not, there's very much a distinction in how other cultures view parents and how we view parents. And so even a toddler calling their father Abba somewhere else is not exactly the same as a toddler calling their dad daddy. Here, there's still a bit of a reverence, there's a bit of a distance there that even the most loving, doting father, it's not quite the same thing. And really, you could make it down to the difference between childlike and childish. And so the Abba phrase is very childlike in the trust in a father that loves you and cares for you, but it's not childish. And calling him daddy God comes off as really childish. [00:13:51] Speaker A: And I think there can, you know, be a level of affection that you, you show. I mean, obviously, we know. We know we're supposed to love God like that. There is. I don't want anybody to think, like, you need to be in this very, very rigid, you know, only respect. It's very much safe. You know, that's the only emotion you can have, because I don't think that's, I think that's swinging probably the pendulum a little bit too far. There needs to be some affection. There needs to be some understanding of everything that he's done for you that's going to, you know, you know, engineer that, that love, just like you said. Not that, not the daddy part. So let's get into the next section here, public versus private prayer. I think that's a very interesting question. And one of our focus plus subscribers also asked about that as well, and we told him we would get to that in this episode. So here we go, public and private. So I guess I got a question that I'll ask. In addition, I'm going to ask him back to back. Maybe we can answer them both. So Joe's got on our outline. Is it proper to pray in public? Is it proper to pray in public? You might say, well, why would it not be? Well, contextually, in Matthew six, Jesus seems to make a pretty big deal about the Pharisees praying publicly, going to the street corner where everybody can see him, you know, praying in the, standing in the synagogues praying, you know, say again, staying on the street corner, they made a big deal out of public prayer. Whereas Jesus then presents the contrast of that which is literally go to the most private part of your house, you can possibly find the innermost room, and when you have shut your door, pray. And so obviously there Jesus once again presenting the contrast of the public prayer in a far better light. And so, guys, I guess I don't want to ask my other question yet. Let's answer that first. Is it proper to pray in public? Should we take Jesus's words to mean and probably shouldn't be praying in public? [00:15:44] Speaker C: No, I mean, I think it's just a very much a different kind of prayer. It is your personal one that he's talking about there. They were letting everybody see. I kind of, hey, everybody, just look how holy I am. And we've kind of talked about that before in the age of social media, of here's my coffee and a Bible, I'm having my time with God. Like, no, that's kind of what he has in mind. But as far as, I mean, we see so many public prayers in the Bible, whether it's public lamentation and repentance in the Old Testament or public prayer, you know, as Solomon did when they dedicated the temple and things like that, just beautiful public prayers. Jesus, of course, himself publicly praying. And so it is the nature of it. I will say, though, we've probably all been in worship services where a guy turns the opening or closing prayer into kind of his personal prayer time, and it's like, well, it's really not that. I think we do need to distinguish and, and have what is the purpose of each public prayer. And I think especially in the worship service, it's, it's time for a worshipful prayer because that's what we're doing right now. Real quick. [00:16:48] Speaker A: Sorry, Joe, before you. That was, the other question I was going to ask is, obviously I'm not up here. You know, I don't think any of us are saying we shouldn't pray publicly. To cut for a Joe there, I apologize. My question was, so what, what should, how different should those look? Personal prayer versus public prayer. And kind of my take on it has always been, if you're leading a public prayer, specifically in worship, you are responsible, in my opinion, for kind of leading everybody's thoughts in prayer. I mean, very much like it is not just a, well, let me just get up and give my personal prayer to God and maybe everybody else can just kind of do their own thing. No, you're leading the prayer. And so I think there's a time element that needs to be considered there. It might be a little controversial. Like, I don't think twelve minute prayers, when you're leading congregations, thoughts are, are, is a positive thing. I think you need to really be thinking about the elements of the things that you're praying for. As Jack said, very praiseworthy. Um, the prayers where they literally get up there and read the sick list. Don't really know how I feel about that in, in the middle of worship. I get we should be praying for, you know, those in our congregation who need help and all those things. I just think. I don't know, I think I need, I think more thought needs to go into the elements of the prayer when it's public, as opposed to personal prayer where. [00:17:59] Speaker B: Sure. [00:17:59] Speaker A: Read through your list of everybody that's sick and things, whereas public worshipful prayer needs to look a little different, in my opinion. Joe, what are your thoughts? [00:18:07] Speaker B: I think it's the difference between we and I. You know, when you are praying publicly, you need to filter everything through the we lens. You know, we are coming before you in this moment because you are ascending everybody's hearts and everybody's minds in prayer to God. And so everything you say needs to have the thought in mind of, can we collectively pray this? That's why it's not time for you to catch up on your personal prayer life and pray for all the things that you've been wanting to pray for. You see those guys that do it, you know, they're worried about the country and they're worried about this and they're worried about that. Look, I appreciate that, you know, but the droning on and on and on about those things, that sounds really bad to say. That's not the time, if that's what's on your heart. Good for you, man. You go to God in prayer. Like, you take that before the father and really just cry out to God. You have to think about what, collectively is the congregation we need to be praying for. In my opinion, speaking to the sick list. This is why I would say public prayers need to be very intentional in why we're doing this. What are we looking to pray for? If we're looking to pray like, why are we praying in public? In worship? We're praying to set people's minds right. I'm sure people have noticed this. In my congregation, I don't pray, so we, we do the announcements at the beginning. We do the bulletin. We do all that stuff, you know, we kind of read through who, like the people we're supposed to pray for. When I'm leading the opening prayer or if I'm giving announcements and lead that prayer, I don't pray for those on the sick list. Now's not the time we're about to enter into worship of God. I will bring them to, to God on my own, in my own personal prayer life. When I'm leading their hearts and their minds, I'm preparing them to worship the almighty God. I don't need them thinking about miss so and so who's in the hospital. As mean as that is, now's not the time. We're approaching the holy God. So pray for that. Personally, you need to again consider the we what as a collective us. What are we bringing to God? But second off, the intention as to why are we praying for this? There's a time and place on a Wednesday night, maybe in a public setting, where we are praying for the needs of the congregation, including that. Great. Intentionally, we've set that aside. Intentionally. We are bringing these people to God on a Sunday morning where we're really getting ready to worship God. That's not the time to read the 25 names on the prayer list. [00:20:11] Speaker C: I'm sorry. [00:20:11] Speaker B: It's not in my opinion. So I don't know, Jack, what your thoughts are on that. [00:20:15] Speaker C: But I know where I stand. I don't. You might have. Guys, listen. Go, man. I just did that last Sunday. This is not a hit on people who do that. It is just a call to reconsider. Hey, what are we doing here? What is the purpose of this one? Because I. We're big advocates of churches getting together to pray more often. That's something we've been trying to do with our congregation, and that really is the time. All right, let's, let's bring the sick before. Let's bring our, our spiritually sick, you know, and have a prayer for them. Let's pray for the nation. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Pray for the building needs of the congregation. [00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, material needs. The congregation, each family in the congregation, like, those things should be happening, but probably not during the worship hour. And you have public prayers in the Bible, you have the psalms, you have things like that that really help shape different kinds of prayers. And so it can be a brief prayer of just praise and why we love God and how we're grateful to him, and then get back to the worship. So to get back to this, not get back to the worship service, get back to the singing and all that. That time and place kind of thing. [00:21:12] Speaker A: I love the intentionality point that Joe brought up when it comes to public prayer. And obviously, you need to be intentional in your personal prayer life, too, but specifically with worship in the public prayer aspect. Man, intentionality is so key and so important because every single one of us has heard prayers where you can pretty well tell. That's kind of the routine prayer that he gives. That's kind of the. Is the same phrases, the same guide, garden, direct things. They always guide, guard, and direct us. Thank you for the soldiers fighting for our country, and thank you for letting us worship without fear of persecution. Like, I'm not saying we can't pray for those things, but it's the. The concept of just kind of mindlessly getting up there and saying the same things over and over again, to me, that's just as much of a problem as, you know, not really putting a lot of thought into the fact that it's a worship hour and you're praying for the 30 names and the cyclists. I think that's an element of this as well that needs to be considered is, again, if you're a man of the congregation, leading the congregation's thoughts in prayer, if you just get up there and mindlessly give the same spiel of where you cycle through, be with the sick. Thank you for everything. Thank you for bringing us here, bring us back at the next appointed time, and we could all. We could go the list of church of Christ, you know, prayer phrases. Um, ready recollection is another. Like, it's just, I guess what I'm getting at is, like, when there needs to be a serious level of intentionality, you are thinking about what you're praying. That's why I've never had a problem with people who not prescript their prayers, but they kind of write down what they want to pray for, bring it up there. And obviously, reading it verbatim is probably not the best way to go about it, because then it becomes more of a speech. But at least you're putting in some kind of intentionality and thought of, like, these are the things that I really want to lead the congregation's thoughts, um, and. And lead their minds in with prayer, as opposed to just getting up there and, you know, kind of giving the same spiel over and over again. [00:22:55] Speaker B: I'd add. I'd add two thoughts to that. First is just echoing Jack's, which is, this is not a condemnation of those that have. Those that do. We've, I think all three of us, I'm sure, at some point, have done everything we're talking about. We're just talking about chasing what's better. Right. What's best. Um, so this is not a condemnation if you've used guide garden directus. I mean, I'm sure everybody has to a certain degree at some time. Um, but this is, you know, being, again, intentional on that front. The second thing is, we are also very aware. Nerves certainly come into play. There was a long. For a long time, I would rather have given a 30 minutes sermon on the spot than said a public prayer. It felt very personal to me. It felt like I wasn't good at leading people. It's a very nerve wracking thing, some people. I remember dad, my dad saying that the first prayer he ever led, his hands are sweating. He was just very nervous. And he got up and said the Lord's prayer. Just had it written down. Said the Lord's prayer. I have no problem with that. I think that's. I got up. [00:23:46] Speaker C: When we're asking and ask God to be with those who are sick of our church. [00:23:53] Speaker B: I remember giving. I went in to give the Lord's supper with Brother Warren Wilcox. He was in there. And I remember I was helping serve that. That night we went into the chapel to offer for those that didn't have it on Sunday morning, and I was saying the prayer for the bread and forgot to pray for the bread and just prayed for the day and prayed for everything else. And then I got done after. I'm like, I don't even think I mentioned Jesus, the bread, or anything else. I just prayed for the day and for the sick and everything else. This is what I'm talking about. [00:24:17] Speaker C: It's hard. Yeah, it is hard. [00:24:19] Speaker B: There are nerves involved here, and so there's a lot of grace in this, and I guess, is what I'm getting at. But this is something just to consider, before you get up there, if you've been asked to lead a prayer, just think about some of these things. And this is why we as a congregation need to work more on. And what I'm trying to do in our bulletin is give it ahead of time so, you know, a week in advance or whatever for the guys that maybe aren't great on the spot. Hey, can you get up and say a prayer? Some of these guys need some time to think about this and that's okay. But guys, I want to switch to the other side of it, to the listener. What does this look like for the average listener? We're all sitting in the pews, we have the guy leading the prayer. How do we follow along? And this is more of like, I'm just curious, your guys's thoughts on this because I suppose maybe there's a few different ways to do it. Some people just listen to the words. Some people, and we know in the black congregations. Amen, brother. Like, they're more vocal during the prayers, right? They're just showing their ascent. Like they're, they're doing the ascent with, with the guy praying and they're encouraging him and amening him even during the prayer. Some people can get uncomfortable with it, some people that, that can help, right, to kind of lead their hearts and minds. So what should our posture be as the listeners of the prayers? Do? We add thoughts to that of, like, you know, God, please be with so and so and then, yes, and please help them in this particular situation. I've done that too, sometimes where I kind of add to the prayer and I don't know if that's right or wrong. So I'm curious, your guys thoughts on, like, what should our posture and our attitude be as the listeners to the public prayer being led? [00:25:42] Speaker A: I think this is all going to be completely conjecture and opinion based. Like, I certainly don't have, I certainly don't have a scripture to back up what I'm about to say. [00:25:50] Speaker B: I don't think there are any scriptures that I'm aware of. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I can only speak for what I try to do, and that is, it's similar to what I try to do with the Lord's supper, which is center my mind specifically on, obviously, the sacrifice of Christ, his blood, his body, um, a lot of different elements that you can send your mind on. What I try to do whenever somebody's leading public prayer is, I very much try. And this is why you close your eyes, why you fold your hands so you obviously very difficult with kids, but, like, you can get distracted super easily and your mind starts to wander, all these things. Try to. What I try to do is try to center my mind on exactly what they're talking about. If they are praying and thanking God for the beautiful weather and beautiful, you know, week that they've had, that's what I'm desperately trying to think about. If they're thanking God, even for the freedoms that we enjoy, I'm desperately trying to think about that. And here's where I struggle, and that is when somebody is droning on and on, or not really. Not really leading the prayer very well. And I can feel my mind start to wonder. Sometimes I will just start to say my own prayer, kind of. And, you know, not that I'm not listening, but, you know, so I guess similar to Joe, I'm adding various things, or maybe I'm taking a different direction. I don't know that that's right either, but I just tend to think that's, that's better than my letting my mind just wander, because the, the, again, the person is just kind of droning on and on. But that's, that's what I do. That's all I can kind of speak for right now. Jack, how about you? [00:27:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that as much. As far as the people chiming in amens or whatever it may be, I understand some of that's cultural. I don't think there's book, chapter, verse on any of those things. I would caution that sometimes it can get a little. Be careful with it. Yeah. It might be performative. It might be that you're kind of looking for that more than actually listening kind of thing. You're looking for the opportunity. I don't know. That's not something I do. I've been around a whole lot of. And so that's a little bit. To each their own. And elders kind of determine if they, if they think it's getting out of hand or if they think it's fine if they're, you know, okay with how it's been in their congregation. Um, but, yeah, no, I don't, I don't think I have too much more on this topic. [00:28:02] Speaker B: What do you have anything? I'm just curious, like, what do you personally think of when somebody's praying? Do you just think of it like, listen to the words and kind of have your mind on to will's point? Do you pray along with them? Do you, you know, like. And I guess the other thing is. And then we'll move on from this. Just as I'm thinking about it, kids do make this insanely difficult, very difficult, because, you know, my son or daughter or whatever is like, patting my leg or wanting up or they're spilling things on the pew or who knows what, and you're just like, this is very, very difficult. Yeah, there's absolute grace for that. What about the guy who has no kids? No. Nothing else. But every prayer that's led, he's thinking about what he's going to eat. He's thinking about the football game later. He's thinking about what he's going to do. I mean, I do think there's a. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Level of, like, you know, that, you. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Know, that happens, and I. Look, man, that's. I'll be the first to say that's been me as well. I guess this would be a call. All I'd say. I don't know if there's a question involved, because this isn't in scripture. I'm not condemning anybody. This is between you and God. This is, you know, your heart. But I would caution against those things. And this is why, I guess, I'm bringing this point up in general, of how we approach God as the listeners, I think a lot of people struggle with that. A lot of people struggle with their mind kind of just wandering during. Especially on the prayers going long, which is why we're talking about, if you are leading a public prayer, you have to consider that. You have to consider the people with kids. You got to consider the people that they don't have a 15 minutes attention span to stand there after a sermon and to, you know, after 30 minutes sermon, to stand there for 15 minutes while you lead a prayer, you have to think about those things. As to, I'm leading this congregation before God, and if I've lost 75% where all of their mind, I didn't do a good job of really ascending their hearts and minds to God. So that is something to consider as the person saying it. But if you were the person listening, I would just give caution to, don't always be the guy who's letting your thoughts wander. To the best of your ability, try to focus. I like how you said that, Will. On those individual things, bringing it to mind. Some people struggle to visualize, so maybe sometimes it's just a hearing thing, but to the best of your ability, try to have the heart that says, I'm really trying to bring this prayer up to God. Let's get into the next section. I don't want to get bogged down. Maybe any more than we already did. And I have a question on here. We don't have to spend too much time on this one. Is public prayer more effective than private prayer due to the amount of people praying? We've talked about the effect prayer of a righteous man, James five. Um, we also talked about getting more like these prayer chains and such. They go on facebook. You got 5000 people praying for a sick person. Um, there's a lot of power, seemingly, we talk about the power of prayer and maybe it being multiplied to multiple people. Is there a, a deeper power to an entire church praying for something as opposed to just one righteous man praying in his room? What are your guys thoughts? [00:30:38] Speaker A: This is such a tough one. This is very, very interesting. I'm going to let Jack go. I cut in, but I'm going to probably let Jack go first because I don't know that I have an answer for this. Like, just the thought of, of, I'm not saying God does it this way, but like, okay, this prayer had 5072 people praying for it. So sure, I'll, I'll do this like. [00:30:56] Speaker C: Those prayer only if this gets enough likes, you know, Jesus is gonna save this poor child and need surgery, like, exactly. No, but I would just say the effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Well, the more people you have praying, the more righteous men and women you've got involved. And so I think that is a necessary thing. Corporate prayer is something you see throughout the Bible, whether it's in repentance, whether it's in praise or whatever the case may be. And so I think that you brought up earlier heaven. I mean, that we have the example, the pattern of it happening up there. And so, yeah, I think that is something that is really, really important and really, really neglected. A lot of times we do see. [00:31:36] Speaker B: The important point of the church as a whole seemingly praying in the New Testament or, you know, Paul asking them to pray for something. I think there's precedent absolutely set for people praying, obviously individually, but as a congregation as a whole. And, you know, seeing that this does have an effect. Now here's the other question in regards to public prayer, what is public? Does the home count as well? Is that considered public? We would say in the privacy of our home, but Jesus is talking about individually, one person at a time. Is you praying in front of a family? Is you praying at a devo in your house with maybe five other christians involved, is that considered public or is it not? And the reason why this makes a difference is specifically in regards to women's roles. Are women allowed to pray in the church? Clearly, we'd say no. Are they allowed to pray in their home in front of maybe five other christians? Is this public? I'd still say, I think all of us are on the same page. Yes, that's public. It's other baptized men in there. So let's bring it back home. Let's. Let's bring it down to the smallest level. Can women pray in front of their husbands? [00:32:44] Speaker C: Hmm. Will jump on that grenade. [00:32:48] Speaker B: I love that I'm asking all the questions I gotta get. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Nicely done. I was looking at this because I. I've wondered about over the years, but I never looked really deeply at it, because growing up, my mom was not comfortable when we were younger kids. But as we got to be baptized boys, uh, she passed that off to us, you know, in our, like, homeschool Devos. And then if dad were around, you know, he was saying prayers. And so, uh, she wasn't that way. Although I remember my sister saying some prayers, and then my wife, you know, she prays, but she is not comfortable. And so we haven't. I've never really pressed it with her or we've had that discussion, so I haven't really ever taken a stance on it. And so in looking at this outline, I was like, well, I should probably think some things about it. So our brothers over at the gospel of Christ, I believe that's a tv program in the churches of Christ, they came at it from the sense of no going to one Timothy 211 twelve. The men in every place say the word everywhere means in every place. There can be no justification given in considering it a limited phrase, and thus we must hold it as a universal statement, no matter where it might be. When males and females are together, the males to be the one leading the prayer. Therefore, in the home setting, the husband is always to lead the wife in prayer. And so she can have her own private prayer life, but she shouldn't lead him. However, they kind of skim some things there in that it says males, and the men lift up the prayers in every place. It doesn't say unless a man's not there. And so when you're kind of arguing from what that doesn't say, you kind of. You're filling in some gaps there. And so the idea of, are these public places? Is this a church authority thing? Is a wife allowed to pray in front of her husband? On the one hand, your sensibility or your sense of understanding of the whole thing says, well, of course. On the other, if you go to make a scriptural case for it. It is kind of hard, and that's been the issue I've been struggling with. It is like my obvious, off the top of my head answer is yes. But if I want to prove that from scriptures, it does get harder. [00:34:56] Speaker B: I do think first Corinthians 14, I think verse 35, let them ask their husbands at home, does set the precedent that there is a place where women are. This is where you come to really get these things hammered out. You don't go asking that in the assembly. You don't go speaking up in the assembly, but in the comfort or privacy of your own home. You can challenge some things, you can ask some things. I would take that. And to your point, Jack, I don't think I can make a strong biblical case, but if I were kind of. [00:35:20] Speaker C: Doing the other side, that might lend towards even more of the submission still. You know, the, the. That her role extends to the home and that she can ask her husband at home, like she's still asking of him, she's still putting questions before him. She's not in the teaching role at home. And so somebody might take from that and say, see, even still in that, he's the guy doing the talking, the running the show, I guess, is one way of putting it. [00:35:48] Speaker B: So I was looking through first Corinthians twelve or one Corinthians eleven, rather. Sorry, the beginning, first Corinthians eleven, praying and prophesying things like that, of making sure that she has her head covered. If she does pray, there's a level of kind of like. It's almost an assumption that she will pray, but how does she pray and making sure she is under somebody's headship in that. And I think you can pray from home and understand that you are still under your husband's head. Personally, for me, to your point, it's difficult to make a biblical case, but I don't know that you can make a super strong biblical case in the other way, other than, yeah, we see men pray, but at the same time we do see women pray in this first corinthians eleven passage, just done with the appropriate authority. Understanding here, talking about it gets into like, angels, the struggle with angels. I don't fully understand first corinthians. I studied it a lot, and I still have no idea about half of it. But I do think that one of the things that we've come to very early is Alyssa very much kind of the same way of like, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of prayer, praying in front of you. I like knowing her prayer life. I like knowing where she's at with her walking with God and kind of as her husband helping her along in that. I do say the majority of the prayers, but at the same time, it is nice to see and to have her kind of walk alongside with her personal relationship with God and for me to see. To see that the same way she gets to see mine and for us to spur each other on to better prayer and things like that. So I use, like, her saying prayers in the home to help understand kind of where she's at with God and such. And I think she gets to see that vice versa with me. I I don't think. I don't think it's worthy of anybody being condemned over, in my opinion. I don't think you condemn people either way, but I do. I do think you could see. And, will, I got to bring you in on this because I'm curious about your thoughts, but, like, I could see either way. I could see both. Both sides of this. And I think if somebody were to make a strong case, I'm not so glued to either one of these, other than the fact, I mean, as it stands right now, my wife does pray at home, and she does pray in front of the kids. Not when I'm present. I say the prayers when they're present, but, you know, when she's doing Bible study with them or whatever else, she'll say that in the mornings with him, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Will, what are your thoughts on this? [00:38:03] Speaker A: Yeah, very tough. So, right now, I lean towards what Joe saying. Like, I agree in the sense that, um, my wife does pray in front of me. Obviously, she's. She prays, uh, with Jackson when I'm out there. I'd certainly have a problem with that. Um, when we're all at the table together, I am the one leading the prayer. Um, and so that we have that, I think the most interesting aspect of this is the spouse's husband. Wife alone in the room praying at night, is the husband. I don't want to say obligated, but, like, is it a requirement that he is always the one to say the prayer out loud? To me, that's the most interesting part of this discussion. And I. I see what Jack's saying, which I'm not. [00:38:43] Speaker C: Like, I'm not on that position. I'm just saying, like, I have a hard time fleshing out the case. [00:38:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Where, as it stands right now, I guess I. You guys kind of said everything that there is to be said. There. As far as the first corinthians 14, I would say one Timothy, two. From everything that I've seen of that, it stresses. What I key on is the word authority because it says, you know, let a woman learn in silence with all submission. Okay, so we're not really talking about prayer right there. We're talking about learning. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority. The authority part is where you could very easily get the prayer part from. Is my wife praying in front of me? Even if it's just us two, is that usurping my authority? This is where the opinion stuff comes in. Personally, I don't think so. Personally, I don't think my wife is usurping my authority by praying in front of me to God for every reason that Joe said of, you know, you're, you're, you're one, you're a one flesh, you're a husband and wife. You can pray together. You want to know each other's prayer life against somebody else very easily could look at that and say, well, you know, that is, that is usurping her husband's authority. And to Jack's point, I don't know that I have a strong reboot for that. It's just common sense. And, and my, again, just opinion tells me that my wife praying in front of me is not usurping. Is not usurping my own authority at home. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Be. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Go ahead. [00:40:05] Speaker B: No, no, I was just going to. [00:40:08] Speaker A: Say because again, then you would get to a scenario where you literally have no idea how your wife prays. You literally have no idea if she knows how to pray. You know, there I just, I'm not, again, from a common sense perspective, I guess I'm just not comfortable with that as far as, again, strong biblical backing either way. I don't know that I have. That's just kind of the, the opinion that I've developed so far. [00:40:30] Speaker B: I am completely wholeness out of nowhere. So this could be way off because we don't really have any whole lot of precedent. But if we are kind of getting back to the garden with marriage and in a lot of ways I think we do with Adam and Eve naked and unashamed, all of that stuff. I do see Adam, I do conceptualize. I don't know if you guys do. And again, there's no biblical case for this per se, but we see eve talking to the serpent. We don't necessarily see her talking to God. We see, we see Adam talk on behalf of Eve for God. I suppose. So maybe that does make more of their case, but I get the sense, like, eve is walking and talking with God in the garden as well. It's not just Adam. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Doesn't she talk to God when the punishment's being handed down? [00:41:13] Speaker B: Yeah, she does kind of talk back, I suppose, in terms of. And to make this as the case of whether she can pray in front of you, that may be. Again, I'm coming off the top of my head here, like, this could be way off. But I do feel like Eve is able to approach God, seemingly, at least in that situation. Like, I don't see it as Adam being the one that's always the buffer between her and God. Like, they are walking and talking with God in the garden, and so there's clear headship in the garden. This is why Adam is judged more harshly. So the headship is still there. But the idea of Eve always having to go between Adam as the talk with God, maybe that did happen again. I can't say one way or the other. Maybe it did happen. I've just always conceptually or conceptualized, I guess, Eve having that relationship with God as well, even with Adam present. So I don't know. I mean, it's. It's. It is a difficult. I don't think we're going to come to a full conclusion on it. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Well, and I guess, to me, the last thing I'll say on this is a prayer between your husband, you know, husband and wife by themselves. To me, that's still a private prayer. Very much so. Like, I don't see that as a public prayer, which is, again, where you would get into the dangerous waters of women taking authority positions. Again, you brought the devo position, or, you know, even a family Bible study with your 1516 year old boys. I wouldn't really be comfortable with the woman praying, but with a husband and wife being one flesh, you know, they are. Again, they're one. I see that as a private prayer. Again, that's just me. I don't know. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:42:31] Speaker A: Maybe I'm very off on that. [00:42:32] Speaker B: But let's talk about it from the kids perspective. Is it okay to let kids. Because I let my boys say prayers, which is, Jackson, let us pray tonight. Yeah. I mean, as bad as it sounds, like, I'm not. I'm not putting those two together and saying my wife is like my five year old son. But there is an element of. It's kind of the same thing of where, you know, I'm teaching him to pray. Not that I'm teaching Alyssa to pray, but I do want to see where she's at in her walk with God. There's the same thing. Harrison's prayers have gotten a lot better over time. I mean, beans three. His prayers are different than Harrison's, and Harrison's really grown and is praying for more. They're longer prayers. He talks about more. I mean, I'm proud of him, and he's doing great. I let him pray. I don't think he's holding authority over me. And I let Eleanor pray, like, even as. Which she says about 50 words right now. So her prayers are pretty limited. And most of the time, I'm praying for her, and she's repeating, but I fully plan to let her in that time, maybe say some prayers to kind of work on that. Um, I don't know if that's. Is it. Is it wrong to have my boys pray? Is it wrong to have my little girl pray in front of my boys? I don't want to set a bad precedent. There will be a time where it's like, well, that's not how we do it. So do I get started at that at all? But if I don't, then do we allow her to. Does she never really develop a prayer life? Is that something only Alyssa works with her on in developing the prayer life? I mean, I hate to get so. [00:43:44] Speaker A: Like, dialed in questions that I know. [00:43:47] Speaker B: I hate to get dialed into the details. I don't want to get lost in that. But at the same time, I feel like there is a level of. These are kind of questions, I think, that people, at least I ponder. I don't know. I'm curious what you guys think. [00:43:58] Speaker C: If I'm at the table for a meal, then I. Which, you know, we always have dinner together, but sometimes work schedule or whatever I've got going on, they've. When they eat, when I eat might not align during the day, and so. But at the very least at dinner, I always say the prayer, but we. We get everyone together before bed and just go down the line, and everyone says theirs, and, you know, all four kids and, um, you know, with all of us in the room, and so. But it's something I've thought about, like, well, is that, you know, I. I know a brother who said all the family prayers. He said, bible says the men are supposed to pray in every place. My four year old son's not a man. I'm going to say the prayer. And, I mean, that is the most literal interpretation. I. So I get where he's coming from. Uh, again, it's kind of like the the last question, your sense of it says, well, yeah, of course. But on the other hand, making the cases, it does get hard. And so, yeah, I. It's very hard to say one way or another. I'm. That's. I explained what we do, but that's about all I can give. [00:45:04] Speaker A: I'm in the phase of life right now where Jackson has just started to say his own prayers. And it's. It's truly the one of the sweetest things that I've ever seen. There was just one. I would always say the prayer for him. I would pray as if he was praying. I would. Thank you, God, for mom and dad and maybe Sister Brooklyn, and for various things that happened to him about the day, for Bible class, for letting him play outside or all these things. Well, there was this one night where he stopped me. He said, no, no, me pray. And then he just started. He started with father, and then he just started mentioning stuff. He mentioned all our names. He mentioned, uh, getting to, I think. I don't remember what it was. Something about getting to play outside. We were hitting golf balls. So he mentioned that. And just to. To see a two and a half year old, really. And obviously, he's not processing who he's talking to or anything like that, the spiritual side of it. But what he is doing is thinking about the things that he was thankful for throughout the day. And to me, that's. To me, that's super cool. And probably not adding a ton of the discussion here, but I do think there is an element of teaching your children how to pray. You got to get on the bike and ride it at some point. Like you, to me, that's the example that I would give of. Teach your children to pray. Pray with them, pray for them, and then let them do it as well. I would love to hear somebody give me the, you know, try to really push me on. Hey, your kids don't need to be praying out loud at home until they're baptized. I do not see a biblical case for that, personally. [00:46:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, let the little children come to me. That'd be a pretty solid one for that. And when I was trying to think of scriptural case, people may be listening. [00:46:45] Speaker B: To this going, are you serious? Are you really discussing this? I do think there are. There are people wonder about. [00:46:52] Speaker C: Who wrestle with the husband wife dynamic. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the kids a little more slam dunk. Like I. To your point, Jack, what you just said, will, you made a great point there. Like, I don't think that one's near as difficult as the husband and wife situation, I do think it's in the privacy of your own home. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Well, I don't know. I mean, I think if a three year old is qualified to pray in front of you, then your actual baptized wife, like, but, you know, she's less qualified to pray in front of her husband. That. That doesn't. [00:47:24] Speaker B: Right. That seems. That seems wrong. That seems wrong. But it would also be for the purpose of the prayer. One is like, you're just trying to get your kid to understand how to say a prayer. That's not the situation with your wife, of your trying to hear. Alyssa, let me tell you how to pray. Like, she knows how to pray. [00:47:38] Speaker A: It's not like Jackson, in my example, was not literally praying. He was saying words in the sense of like, he did not know he was talking to God. [00:47:46] Speaker B: He's not leading my mind in thoughts to God, in my opinion. Now, as we get older, Jack, I mean, I think your daughter's about to turn six. Harrison's about to turn. No, he's five, five and a half. Their prayers are more legit. Like, I do pray to God with them. And so, to your point, maybe two and a half, three for my son, you know, for Lachlan. Um, maybe those aren't as put together, but if my five year old can say a prayer that I listen to. Yeah, I don't have a problem with my wife praying, so I guess that's. That's something just to chew on. Um, but I also would say they're a little bit different in how you're approaching God and the headship and everything else. [00:48:22] Speaker C: Um, but maybe my general sense is not to have a problem with any of these things. But again, if you ask me for a verse, I can't give you one. And that always makes me just a little bit nervous. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, we spent some time on that. Let's get into some even tougher questions, which. [00:48:41] Speaker A: I was gonna say, let's start on. I would say the. What does it mean to pray in faith? And then get into the one right after that that we've got on there. I don't know that we're gonna be able to hit all of these. I think we're gonna have to kind of cherry pick here. [00:48:54] Speaker C: I think pray and trace kind of rolls in the first two as well. So I'll just kind of put those together. [00:49:00] Speaker B: There you go. [00:49:02] Speaker C: There you go. [00:49:03] Speaker A: So how do we know if an answer is from God or not? Was one of them? How do we wait on God for an answer? And so Jack's right. That does kind of very much tie into what does it mean to pray in faith? We're going to stay away from Jesus's prayer, faith in the garden. We have discussed that plenty. We're not going to discuss that here. See our ending to the latest episode, the previous one. But, guys, what does it mean to pray in faith? What does it mean again, all these things. How do we wait on God for an answer? How do we know if an answer is from God or not? What are y'all's brief thoughts on that? Because I think there's a few other good questions that we need to get to. [00:49:34] Speaker C: I owe a lot to a book by a guy named Kevin DeYoung called just do something. And it's a really handy little booklet, and he was kind of debunking this idea of kind of waiting on the big answer from God. You pray and you pray. I'm not getting an answer. I'm not getting an answer. His thing is start moving and he will direct you as, you know, like he'll, as he did with Paul in the book of acts missionary journey, is like, well, that door, the Holy Spirit slammed that door closed on us. So we didn't. We didn't go there. We were going. We were praying that God's will, you know, that should be your default. And I say I owe a lot to that, because for a long time, I knew my wife for four years before we got married. Thought she was gorgeous from the minute I saw her, and really liked the person she was. As I got to the. Get to know her over those years and kind of, you know, made a little bit of an attempt. It wasn't really going anywhere. And so it was kind of this prayer with God, like, is this the girl I'm supposed to marry? Should I move on? Should I, you know, should I press the issue here? What should I do? And, you know, I'm just not getting an answer. Not getting an answer. Not getting an answer. And I read that book, and he's like, well, just do something again, the title of the book, and God will give you your answer. You know, like, if it's a no, you'll get your no. Like, you're. Wait, what are you waiting on God to do? Like, to speak from the sky? Well, that's not going to happen. You know, to send you a letter in the mail. That's not going to happen. The answer is going to be in the doing. And so when you pray in faith, it is that thing of you pray for rain and you carry the umbrella of you pray, God, please let this happen. God, this is what I want. This is, this is my preference. This is what I would hope to have. Or please give me clarity about this, that or the other thing and then go about to the best of your ability, making the best choice. You know, how in the moment while being adaptable that, that's the faith part is not saying it has to end up this way. It's okay if there's a change, then, then God is redirecting me. I'll take that and roll with the punches. [00:51:28] Speaker B: I'd very much agree with that. [00:51:30] Speaker A: I think that's a great, great way to put it. [00:51:32] Speaker B: That's a, that's a great way to put it. It's just active. [00:51:34] Speaker C: That's all I'd say is I'm going to show you this guy. Appreciate the compliment there. I'll return it. The recent godly young men on directionlessness. Move your feet. You said, you know, that point of just get going with something. You don't have to have your career picked out at 17, but opportunities are going to come when you're moving in the right direction. There's faith in that. And so I, you know, I know godly young men is not something that everybody's going to listen to, but if you're in that demographic, those are really good episode that addressed a lot of this stuff because it is. People in those phases of life have that question of faith. Where is God? How is he going to guide me through these things? That's part of it. [00:52:13] Speaker B: I appreciate that. And there have been things that, you know, I prayed for. I've got my feet moving in. It really doesn't deviate that much from what I was praying for. And I look at that and I go, it must have been from God. Do I feel God like, fully answered and something miraculous happened? No, I was already planning to do it. I prayed for you. [00:52:30] Speaker C: And God had the same will and those things. [00:52:32] Speaker A: Or here we go. [00:52:34] Speaker C: No, no, I'm not going to start that again. No, no, I go back to that. [00:52:39] Speaker B: One, as Will already said. So take the cues from, from the guy leading. Uh, no, but I would say that, you know, it, it, that kind of was, it didn't take anything miraculous from God. It was God's way of saying clearly it was in his will that I didn't feel any pull or any, like, there wasn't a door closed. Because there've been other times where I prayed thinking, this is where we're going. Clearly there was a slammed door. It's like it is not happening. I have prayed, and I think anybody who prays enough, I've had times of prayer where I'm praying a lot, times where I'm not praying as much, the times where I'm praying a lot. I do feel very much like God is opening and closing doors that are easy to see. The problem is you have a lot of people that look at it, and again, they don't know if a door is open or is closed. Walk in the direction that I would say you feel is more accurate and more in line with what God would want. And if there's back and forth, should we move to New York or move to Tennessee, whatever it is, and move in the direction you want to and pray? God, if this is your will, please let it be known. And if everything seems clear, but if, you know, all of a sudden a million things happen, and you go, man, New York's taken off the map. Pretty sure that's God's answer. Maybe you're moving to. Maybe you're already moving to Tennessee and everything goes super smooth, then you trust that must have been God's answer. I guess that's what I'm saying. Will, what are your thoughts? [00:53:54] Speaker A: That would just say basically what you already said, which is if you're just sitting on your hands waiting for God to, you know, put on a neon sign, hey, here's my answer. You know, you're going about it the wrong way. Prayer and faith does mean getting up and going somewhere. Let's get to the next question. Um, is it okay to pray in pregatory prayers? Um, this is kind of a. Something that we have disagreed on with other people before. We've referenced it before. I reference it again. Celebrating when Roe v. Wade got overturned. A lot of people got very uncomfortable with that. Uh, you know, hey, you really shouldn't be rubbing it in. This should not be a very celebratory thing. And we very much disagreed and said, absolutely least should be celebratory, and we should be rooting for those people's downfall. I think about, you know, the people who are making, you know, a bazillion dollars because they have seared their conscience enough to where they don't mind mutilating nine year olds and ten year olds by cutting off their body parts. I don't have a problem praying for those people's downfall. I do not have a problem praying for God's wrath to be rained down on them. And people, again, get very uncomfortable with that, man. Read psalm five. Read some of the things that David says, God, I want you to do this to your enemies. [00:55:07] Speaker B: Scatter their cheese. [00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah, literally, like, some. Some very, again, specific things. Very. People would look at it and say harsh things. That's in the Bible. The good man, after God's own heart prayed those things, those things are inspired for anybody to say how we probably shouldn't be saying that again, I would encourage you to just go read the psalms. And as you consider the transgender movement, as you consider, um, again, islamic terrorists, like, whatever you wanted, child molesters, whatever you. Whatever filter you want to run through it, there is no problem, in my opinion. I don't imagine you guys disagree. Praying for the. The downfall of those people, praying for them to meet the justice, spiritual justice that they deserve. What do you. What would you guys add to that? [00:55:46] Speaker C: My sister shout out to her. Don't want her to get her in trouble with. Probably not a lot of listeners coming from this was at a small group Bible study and brought that up, and it didn't go over all that well. You know, that, hey, there have been preparatory psalms are in there. And I guess the leader of the study said, well, you know, that that was the Old Testament God, you know, now we're supposed to love our neighbors as if, you know, kind of the Old Testament God, New Testament God thing. What people don't realize is Jesus grew up and lived his life singing the psalms. All of them. The early church, their songbook was the 150 psalms, all of them that included these things. And so that has to be part of our vocabulary, understanding. And I was thinking about this recently because there is that idea of, well, you know, we're supposed to love our enemies. That's always said by people who don't think we should have any, who don't have a problem, or who think that it is a problem when we have enemies. If you can't think of one example and will just give you a bunch of really good ones, but if you can't think of somebody and go, that person is wicked, you've got a problem. Because that's what the impregnatories are about, are the wicked and bringing down the wicked. And if there's nobody on this earth that you can say they're wicked, because what we do is we do this kind of. We think it's a holy thing to say, well, you know, we're all the same. We're all on the same level. I'm no different than them. You better be. As a Christian, you had absolutely better be. And not because you're a better person, but by the grace of God that you've come to Christ and that he's indwelled you with the spirit, that you're being transformed and all those things. And it's not. Well, everybody who is not me, I hope they get burned out. No, there's, there are degrees of unsaved people. There are lost people who have not found God, and we pray that they do. There are wicked, active people that need to be stopped. Is that way in the Old Testament. It's that way now and again. If you can't name one person and say that person's wicked, you've got a problem. [00:57:35] Speaker B: And that's a. I was just thinking as you're writing, like, that's going to make a great clip on our YouTube shorts right there. So you have to clip that one. But no, I was thinking about, you know, when they talk about love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you. Yeah. And I think there is a level of praying for their repentance. I do think God's shattering the teeth of the abortion doctors and everybody else. I think that is the loving thing to do because you know what? You know who I am loving? I'm loving all of the nine and ten year olds who aren't going to get mutilated by that doctor when he comes to his downfall. I'm loving them, too. And I think I can love both and say I would love for him to come to repentance and for God to take him down in whatever way is necessary for him to come to repentance. I think that's pretty perfectly fine to pray for. But if that takes him being absolutely shattered against the rocks, do it. I think. And even if they don't, I still think it's okay for the downfall, to pray for the downfall of the wicked, ultimately, yes, we want all to come to repentance. Right? If they're going to, they're going to repent. But there are wicked, wicked forces in this world that, yeah, we want them to repent, but at the same time, we very much want them to come to be destroyed. [00:58:41] Speaker C: It's also being realistic that not everyone's going to repent. And if, you know, we want them to repent, but if they're not going to, the answer is not, well, just keep praying until the day they die. And just kind of like the, it's. [00:58:54] Speaker A: Kind of like the, well, we should, we should much rather convert every woman who wants to abort their kid. It's like, let's be realistic about that. We're not going to do it. [00:59:02] Speaker C: I use the example numerous times of the. The school shooter in Texas and the police standing outside the Uvalde one and the police standing outside and letting it happen. And it's like, in that mindset, this is the right way to do it. That man. Let's just stay outside and pray that the God works on his heart and it's not happening. Okay. Now is the time to stop him. Now is the time to use lethal force to put this down because that's what God put the government there for. Romans 13 and so to pray, hey, God, stop people like that and stop them before they're even going to do it. If you just bring those to an end, that's what those imprecations are for. [00:59:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we got plenty of scriptural precedent, and I think using the Old Testament, New Testament God is not a great answer to saying that it's wrong. Let's. Let's go on to a different one, just a fun one. Very brief on this. Should we avoid praying for things like patience? You always hear that, well, don't pray for patience, because you'll get it. Should we avoid for praying for things that we know will actively make life more difficult? Is it wrong to avoid praying for those things? [01:00:05] Speaker A: I guess I'm gonna be honest, I don't fully understand the question. And when you put it on the outline, I was a little confused, so. [01:00:11] Speaker C: I thought that was kind of a sarcastic thing, like a, you know, tongue in cheek, but. [01:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think it is. And I guess I'm just saying, like, there are people that I think genuinely do avoid praying for things like that because they know it will make life harder. Are they wrong to do so? [01:00:25] Speaker C: I don't know. Like for. To use a different example, I would not pray for a trial. I would pray for strength to get through a trial. [01:00:32] Speaker B: I guess that's very much. [01:00:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I would pray that, you know, father, do what I. What needs to happen. A, that I would be most glorified. You would be most glorified in me. And b, that I. Whatever would make me most like Christ. And when you pray that, like you're saying, like, with the patience thing, you can expect some. Nobody gets to be the most like Christ by cruising through life without ever coming up at anything hard. So, yeah, expect, you know, maybe you get some challenges thrown your way, uh, that life brings, but don't. [01:01:01] Speaker A: You don't have to pray for your job for you to lose your job, man. [01:01:03] Speaker C: I really lose my job. Right. You know, what? God, I think that would help me come grow closer to Jesus if, if I lost my leg. You know, like, I'm not going to volunteer those things. I'll kind of let him steer that ship. But, yeah, okay. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you, you translated that question better. Uh, just in terms of praying for, for trials. [01:01:21] Speaker C: Here's. [01:01:21] Speaker B: And I agree with you, um, are phrase our phrases like pray it away legitimate. [01:01:27] Speaker C: Um, pray away the gay, pray away pornography addiction, pray away. [01:01:30] Speaker B: Right. Anxiety. All of those things. Um. [01:01:33] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, mental health. [01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, mental health. All that. Are those legitimate? And I don't know if we want to end here. I think that's maybe the last question. Want to get. I think it. [01:01:40] Speaker A: So I think the, I'll be brief. I think the concept actually is fairly legitimate. I think the way people use it is not. I think the way people use it is very flippant and just very, I'll just pray it'll fix your problem. I just pray it away. Pray it away. And I don't know, I, again, I think it's very flippant. I don't really think that that's a legitimate thing to say to people or to kind of go about it, because it's just kind of a cop out. Like, oh, you're struggling mental health. We'll just pray about it and you'll be good, oh, you're addicted to pornography. Just pray about it. So that, that's the one side. What I said at first, though, which is I do think the concept is somewhat legitimate, is I don't believe there's any problem that is so big that prayer can't answer. I don't think there's anything in this world that you could be dealing with that God says, yeah, you're praying for it. But this issue is just, this issue is just way too big. I do think there, that is legitimate concept to say you can affect it from righteous maybe as much. But this ties us back into you getting out there and going and acting on faith. You don't just get to sit on your hands and say, well, I'm just, I've been praying for my pornography addiction, and I don't know what's going on. I just, I haven't gotten over it. Well, you haven't put filters on your phone. You, you know, or you haven't deleted TikTok or Instagram. You don't have any accountability partners. Yeah, that's not praying. You're not stepping out on faith. That type of praying, in a way, is not legitimate. Um, does that make sense? I draw I definitely draw a distinction there. But to me, that's what goes back to is, yes, you can pray away your pornography addiction, your anxiety stuff, your anxiety struggles or whatever, accompanied by the level of faith, the action steps that it, you know, it takes to get out of that. So that's what I would say to that. [01:03:15] Speaker B: I think the answer goes back to Jack's great point with Kevin de Young and such. Um, get your feet moving. Be praying in that process. I think where the pray it away gets, comes from is you basically don't have to do anything other than prayer. Those that say, well, just pray and your depression will go away. Depression is rooted in a lot of other things other than prayer. Prayer is merely one thing, but a lot of times that's an isolating statement. Well, that's for God. I basically, you don't need me. Like, actually what they're praying for is to get out of depression, and you are the answer to prayer as the friend, to be there and to cry with them and to be there with them and to like, you are the answer to prayer. So if you are the type of person that just throws that out, keep in mind, you may be the answer to prayer in giving them that hug and then being there and listening to their issues, instead of just turn it over to God. And God's going, yeah, I turn it over to you. Like, I'm the one that brought you into their life, to be there for them. So keep that in mind on things like that. The pray away, the gay or whatever else that you kind of see there. Yeah, there's just a lot more. It's got to be active. So that would be the only thing that I'd say. Jack, any thoughts on that? [01:04:14] Speaker C: I was just thinking of James one, which kind of goes with our last point of consider it all joy when you encounter various trials. But then right after that, he says, if any one of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives all abundantly, like, and don't ask with any doubt, ask in faith that he'll give you wisdom. And it's a natural connection, contextually to say wisdom for getting through the thing you're going through, that you'll know what you need to do, that you'll. Again, you'll see the path and things like that. And so you have faith that, hey, this prayer, the prayer might not get me out of it. The prayer might show me the path out of it, if that makes sense. [01:04:48] Speaker B: That's a good point. That's a very good point. Well, fellas, there are a question or two more. I think we've gotten close to this. What I am going to say is, if you're listening to this and you do have questions, please, please, please let us know, give us thoughts on this. I know we got into the weeds a little bit on the, you know, within the home, but those are, again, legitimate points, I think, that people do kind of ponder. What have you guys been pondering as our listeners, as the deep thinkers we very much care to know? Like, what questions do you have about prayer? I don't know that we'll necessarily do a third part on it, but if we get a bazillion and one questions, we're not the experts on this, but we would love to try to answer anything else. [01:05:23] Speaker A: That's what's fascinating about this is we are now 125 or so, I guess, episodes into thinking deeper combined across these two episodes. I think we asked more specific questions in this episode than we ever have before. And we've had a lot of, you know, other than, like, q and a episodes, of course. But, like, as far as one topic goes, you can see how many loaded questions there are with this topic of prayer. And there's more that we didn't get to, and there's more that I'm sure people have. And so I've really enjoyed. I think this is one of the most. My closing comments will be, I think this is one of the most practical topics that we can ever address as christians in Bible classes and sermons and podcasts. And so that's why, I mean, I appreciate the. The outline that Joe put together. I appreciate the, again, just the practical nature of this because it can be very easy, you know, how do we. [01:06:10] Speaker C: Draw closer to God? [01:06:11] Speaker A: Oh, we'll just pray and study. So many questions associated with prayer, so many different things to talk, to, discuss with prayer and, you know, format, you know, everything we talked about. And so, again, I would just say, practically speaking, I think these are things that people want to know. And I would encourage everybody listening, work on some of this stuff, again, whether it's sitting in worship during the Lord's Supper and you're just really trying to focus on that, whether it's your personal prayer life, whether it's with your family. Again, just a lot of the stuff that we talked about. There's so much practical application here. Um, that would be my encouragement and takeaway is don't. Don't neglect the practical, you know, stuff for the sake of, again, just kind of doing the routine, habitual prayers. So, anything else to add to that? [01:06:54] Speaker C: I was just going to say, we mentioned last time, but a shout out to David, one of our deep thinkers, one of our focus plus subscribers. This is a perk of focus plus, as occasionally we're going to ask for episode ideas. And this is one we got two episodes out of his really good suggestions and questions. So thanks to him, thanks to everybody on there who has submitted them. Of course, we take submissions from people who aren't on focus plus two through our Facebook page or YouTube or wherever you like to reach out to us. But yeah, always good to hear from listeners, always good to get feedback. And, man, we call you guys the deep thinkers because we got some really sharp listeners and it's always really encouraging for us to know people are engaging with the content, thinking about their christian walk themselves. Certainly keep that kind of stuff coming. Anything else, guys? All right, we'll get out of here and we'll talk to you again next Monday.