How Does Prayer Work with an All-Knowing God?

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Think Deeper podcast. I'm your co host, Will Harab, joined by Jack and Joe Wilkie. Excited about our episode today. Before we get into that, there's a couple things that we want to mention, and then we'll get rolling with the episode. So the first thing is, we just want to make sure that everybody is aware of the other podcasts that are on our focus press podcast network. Um, the get out of Porn podcast is one that Joe has 50 episodes worth. For anybody who is struggling with a pornography addiction and maybe want some listening material, Joe's covered, again, 50 episodes. So a lot of different angles on that. I'd encourage you to check that one out. The who let the dogma out podcast is another one that is got has. That one goes in seasons, whereas think deeper. We obviously do this every week. Who let the dogma out? Finished season two recently, and so I'd encourage you to go check some of that out. I think there is a season three coming. 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And again, if you hear anything slightly objectionable, just let us know and we will, uh, get that addressed with our hosting site. But thank you for tuning in. We are super excited for this week's episode. There are, um, a lot of really good questions that we've got. We're talking about prayer. I'm going to hand it off to Joe to really get us into some of the things that we're going to cover, why we're doing this episode. And again, as I'm just looking through the outline, he's got 810 twelve questions that we're going to ask him. We were talking off air. I think that's typically what makes podcasts like these interesting and enjoyable is, you know, answering some of these tough questions and might not always have, you know, rock solid answers, but obviously we're going to answer them to the best of our ability. So Joe, go ahead and get us into what we're going to be covering with this episode on Prayer. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, so this was a requested episode. David north actually, shout out David. Um, one of our deep thinkers had asked us a long time ago and he had a series of great questions on prayer. Jack, I think you're the one that dug that back up through Patreon. What episode was that on? [00:03:32] Speaker C: Uh, it wasn't actually an episode. We put that out to our focus plus subscribers. What would you like to hear? And uh, and so we've, we've gotten a few episodes out of the, the responses out of that. So I think this was the last one left we had not come to, so. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Well, there you go. And we might do that again. So that's a shout out to join focus plus if you want to have a say in what episodes come next. But um, shout out, David, again, a lot of great questions on here. And to be honest with you, I think more people struggle with the concept, the idea of prayer than I think we realize. Because when you start asking some of these difficult questions, there's a lot of people that don't know. We know it's important. We're told it's important. We've heard all the sermons on it being important. But is it effective, um, what we, obviously, you can quote, effective prayer of righteous man accomplishes much. What does that look like? Does God always answer well? He doesn't always answer yes. Okay, well, how do I know that's God and not somebody else? Right? How do I know? Like, does it actually change things? Does this is God listening to my prayers? There's a lot of those things where maybe somebody hears no. A lot from God, where it's just he's not coming through, quote unquote. That's a challenge, and it challenges our faith. I feel like prayer challenges people's faith almost more than anything else because of sometimes the perceived silence on the part of God. And then they wonder if God cares and God listens. And so it is something that, again, a lot of christians are struggling with, and I think they've wrestled with the purpose, and this is great alliteration. I should make a sermon out of this, but the purpose, the power and the place of prayer in a Christian's life, I think they really struggle with those concepts. And this is not new. This has been going back for centuries. This goes back to the early church fathers, Augustine, Luther, Martin Luther had a ton in the middle ages and such, going back to 16 hundreds and reformation and lots of quotes on prayer, how it works, you know, what, what God's doing in prayer, things like that. So it's just a very interesting topic. It may be one of those where you go, oh, yep, I know how to pray. We're going to get to your point where will, we're going to get into some pretty deep questions and some things that have very much challenged me, things that I've thought about a lot over the last several years as I've been wrestling with the concept of prayer. And again, what it is, how it works, why we do it, you know, why it's important, and then just some, some of the general questions. So, Jack, I'm going to hand it off to you, unless there's anything else that you want to get us into intro wise, I want you to get us into the most basic of all questions, but maybe there's a little more underneath it than, than what meets the eye, which is. What is prayer? What is prayer? [00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it really does sometimes feel like, especially private prayer, like you're talking to yourself a little bit, you know, whether you're praying in your head or speaking out loud, which I, I found, I really prefer speaking out loud because it does feel like you're talking to somebody. It's different than your just daily model, inner monologue kind of thing. Um, but, yeah, how, like, there's a difficulty of, with private, personal prayer, with prayer in your head of drawing that distinction between when am I actually talking to God? Am I being heard? Is this, is there anything to this? And you go all the way back to the start, you know, of course, Adam and Eve got to talk, talk straight to God, but you have that term calling on the name of the Lord, which, you know, talks about worship a little bit. But, um, and you see that throughout Genesis, like Abraham, others got to talk straight to God or Jacob with the visions and things like that, but, and even through Moses. But when you come to prayer, when you come to somebody, like David, when you come to somebody. And I think that's kind of the most helpful thing for defining what prayer is, is looking at the psalms and it really is pouring your heart out to God, sharing your thoughts with God, asking requests of God, or just thanking God, praising God, being grateful to God, and all of the things that it can be. And so I think when we collectively come together to pray, you know, when the guy gets up at church and says, you know, let's, let's bow in prayer, that can feel more like we're doing something. But sometimes privately it does, it can feel a little self contained. And I don't know about if you guys struggle with that, too. [00:07:27] Speaker A: I've always thought prayer in Christianity, specifically as a religion, is so unique and so interesting. And obviously I'm not. I've never practiced any other religion or anything like that, but I've always thought the, the concept of we believe in an all knowing, all powerful being that saved us from sin, and we get to talk to him. We get to, you know, do something by which he listens to us, and not just listens to us, but wants to listen to us. That concept in and of itself has always just fascinated me, and I think that's so interesting and again, fairly unique to Christianity. Um, the fact that, once again, as Jack was saying, God wants us to share our thoughts, to tell us, to talk about how our day went, to pour out what's on one, what's on our mind. I think that's the other interesting thing about prayer is there's so many different elements to it. Or I guess I should say there should be a lot of different elements to it. Obviously, you read the psalms, and a lot of it is simply David just praising God for who he is, you know, listing off his characteristics and his traits and acknowledging how powerful, how mighty, how incredible he is. And I definitely think that there needs to be elements of that in our prayer. You know, just going to God saying, God, I really need x, y, and Z. Could you take care of that for me? [00:08:44] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:08:44] Speaker A: That's probably not a good way to pray. So there's praise, but then there's also many places in scripture where it talks about bringing our requests and petitions to God. Like he wants us to do that. You know, I've used the analogy before of like the, you know, all three of us are parents and our kids that just ask question after question after question after question, and eventually it's like, okay, just give me a break. I need, I need, I need a minute to not answer your questions. God never does that with us. God wants to hear the questions. He wants to hear the requests. And so there's that. Um, again, just, just sharing our thoughts with God, I think, is such an interesting concept. And I do think that that is, that is a huge element of prayer. That, to Joe's point, feels strange, it feels awkward, it feels weird, like you're just sitting there again, if you're by yourself, talking out loud, or it feels strange. [00:09:32] Speaker B: So. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, but I think it's fascinating. I think it's something. I think that's the reason, though, that people struggle with it, is because we feel like maybe we're not saying enough that we should be, you know, maybe using better words. But as far as what is prayers? We're talking to this as we're answering this question. We got another interesting question that I'm going to let Joe get to here in a second. Um, I think there's so many different elements of it that if you don't practice it, if you're not, if it's something that's not a daily part of your routine, it does become very easy to just, you know, do the. Thank you for this day. Thank you for our blessings. Be with the sick. Help me with this. In Jesus name, amen. [00:10:05] Speaker B: What I find interesting is Hebrews four. This is not on the outline, so I'm already going off outline is Hebrews. For us, boldly approaching God with confidence, we know the veil is split at Jesus death on the cross. We now have access to God that they didn't have. So my question is, did the Israelites have the ability to pray in their head to God? Did they even know to pray in their head to God? Is that unique to Christianity where as we talk about what is prayer, it's ascending our hearts and our minds to God. We're giving over our, our worries and anxieties. And like you said, praise, thanksgivings, all those things. We're giving that up to God. Yes, sometimes it feels like that conversation with self, but it's very much with a God. I don't know. People envision God figure whatever it is in mind, if they're just throwing it out to the universe, quote unquote, as people might say. So that part is a little bit tricky in terms of like, I just always picture this is I'm handing it up to the throne of God and it's kind of this being of light. I'd love to know what other people envision when they do pray. But, fellas, I'll ask you, we now have a high priest. We now know, and it's kind of going to get us into this next question of the members of the Godhead, how they work. We know that Jesus is our mediator. We know the Holy Spirit is our mediator in a different way. And we've heard the illustration of kind of the postman, you know, delivering the prayer and one translating the kind of the prayer itself or the letter that you're handing. And that's kind of the roles, the godhead, and then God grants it. But we know with Jesus we can boldly approach God. Do you think that the Israelites, we're not able to, because we see David, we see other Israelites seemingly pray to God. What's different now than was back then and how, what, in terms of us approaching God with confidence and with the veil being split, us going into the holy of holies with Jesus as our high priest? [00:11:53] Speaker A: This was so interesting. I'll hand it to jack in a second. I don't know that I have a solid answer, but you think about some of the big names in the Old Testament. Obviously, Moses talked to God pretty easily. Abraham, you mentioned David as well. Did the common man Israelite have that ability, I think of, like in the Old Testament when it talks about the Israelites crying out to God to save them from slavery, you know, things like that where it's like, okay, were they praying or were they just kind of. [00:12:20] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:12:20] Speaker A: I mean, you would think that if they were crying out to God that there was, there was, there was some way of, they were expressing, you know, discontentment with their situation, crying out to their God. I mean, that kind of sounds like prayer to me. [00:12:31] Speaker B: But. [00:12:32] Speaker A: But at the same time, it does seem like Jesus as an element for us today as christians that did not exist back in the Old Testament. And maybe it is the more individualized. Again, sharing thoughts with God approaching the throne room of God that maybe the Israelites didn't have, maybe it was a more generic thing, I'm not really sure. Jack, what are your thoughts on that very interesting question Joe asked? [00:12:52] Speaker C: I think there's that the other thing that stands out to me is Jesus when he's teaching the model prayer, of course in Matthew six, and I mean really throughout the gospels, calls God father. There's not a lot of that in the Old Testament of viewing God as a father. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Exactly where I was going to go. [00:13:07] Speaker C: There's a couple of times where God refers to himself as a father to them. But the people themselves did not bow their heads and say our father, our heavenly Father. And in a sense he is their father. And so Jesus wasn't introducing a new concept but a new way of addressing him. And where he talks about prayer of your father and heaven knows what you need. Before you ask what father, you know, if his son asked for bread would give him a stone and, and, you know, how much more will your heavenly father. And so just to think of him as a loving, generous father who cares for you. Yeah, benevolent, you know, caring and concerned and listening and all of the, the aspects of a good father is a New Testament concept. Now of course you see David praying to him in belief that he, that God cares. But I think there's that, you know, the, the mediation, the spirit, the Romans eight, the spirit helping us, you know, with the groanings too deep for words. Yeah, it does seem like there's a closer ability to draw closer. [00:14:09] Speaker B: I guess that's taking all my, all my points because that's where I was going to go in Romans eight is those men, David. You know, Elijah, we see men that are filled with the spirit it talks about back then, but those were on either specific occasions or for very specific men. Whereas we know all christians are endowed with the Holy Spirit, uh, acts 238. And the spirit is the one that translates again, kind of takes this message. It goes, here's what he really needs. That's, that's the way I interpret Romans eight. Is with the groanings too deep for words. I'm a mere human being that is too stupid to really know what I need and what I want. The spirit clearly is not. And so the spirit is taking this message to God in a way, or Jesus kind of, I think is the messenger, so to speak, taking it up to God. I don't know that they had that back then other than, to your point, will, of a few special people that did, did have that connection with God. And I do think the father part coming in of that closeness and that tightness. We now have what David had, like the average Christian can now have what only the elite, so to speak, in the Old Testament. That's the best explanation I'd have. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Well, the, the other thing that's interesting, as you go to Luke twelve or Luke eleven, Matthew six does not include this. But in Luke eleven it came to pass as he was praying in a certain place, verse one, when he seeks that, one of his disciples said to him, lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples. And so to me, that does serve as an indication that even if prayer was a concept, because, I mean, these. If it was his disciples, these would have been jewish boy or jewish men, people that would have grown up under the law. So again, kind of similar to those in the Old Testament. Even if prayer was a concept, it clearly was not a very big concept to them or something that was very well known. Because they needed Jesus to teach them how to do it. They needed Jesus to, again, once again, add that other element of, okay, I know I'm supposed to pray. I know the Pharisees do it, but how am I really supposed to do it? And so I think that adds an interesting element too. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Well, consider the law. How much do we see about prayer and the law? We see coming to God? We see praises. We see a lot of things like that. We don't see a whole lot as to how to pray within the law. So when Jesus is coming on the sermon on the mount, you do get the sense that would have been into Jack's point, especially about the father part. Fairly revelatory for them, because we look at and go, okay, that's the Lord's prayer. Obviously it's deep, but at the same time, it's kind of how we pray. We pray for our food and we pray for forgiveness, and we pray for things like that. Okay, that makes sense. I don't think that was a concept to your point. Like, teach us how to pray. Teach us what we. What that ought to look like. I don't think it's a concept that they understood. And so I know that, again, that's. That's a detour going off. But I want to bring it back. [00:16:37] Speaker A: To Joe, put together pages of outline, and then is adding more stuff to it. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:16:42] Speaker A: But these are. [00:16:43] Speaker B: This is why, man, we could get two parts out of prayer. Because it's so deep, it's so fast, and there's so many good questions. Here's another one. We talk about the members of Godhead. Again, I think the Holy Spirit translates. I think Jesus is the messenger. This is Hebrews four, right? He's delivering. He's our high priest on behalf of God. He goes into the holy holies forest, so to speak, and kind of fights on our behalf is what it seems like. God the Father seems to be the one that it's in his will that these things take place. And we see this throughout scripture, that God's will. So God the father seems to be the one that's granting prayers, so to speak. But all three play a role. Jack, you got into this. I'm going to let you speak on this because I know you did an entire episode on dogma about this. Can we pray to different members of the Godhead? Some people get very, very weird about it, and some people say, well, that's just a denominational thing. [00:17:26] Speaker A: This controversy in the church of Christ there for a while, like a pretty big deal. [00:17:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes, it was. So, yeah, pray. Like saying, starting out of prayer, dear Jesus. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. They say, there's not the example. Our example is our Father who art in heaven, except the Bible right at the end of it says, come, Lord Jesus. Well, that's a request you're making of Christ. And there's other scriptures, same thing in acts seven, right? Looking up and seeing him. And so there's more example of that than you think. The other thing is, it's very difficult with the trinitarian ideas of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, that they are all God, but we're trying to keep them separate, but not separate them. You know, like all of the difficulty of holding that concept together, it is a challenging thing. And so, you know, it's trying to maintain the distinction that is in there when people say, don't pray to them. But on the other hand, when you're praying to God, you are being heard by all three. It is God. And so you're not only praying to the father, although most of the example is to the father. And so I think it's something that I get where people are coming from with saying that, because there is just so much of that. It's to the father you're speaking to. But there are other examples. And I don't know, I think it's something not to be dogmatic about. I think it's something to maybe not take too far because of the ambiguity in there, I guess I would say. [00:18:59] Speaker B: I don't know that this is legit, but I've always heard that people in crisis pray to Jesus, you know, in a car wreck, you know, instead of dear God, like, in a crisis moment, they call out for Jesus, which I don't know if that's legitimate or not. That's what I've heard. I think that is, if that is legit. I think that's very interesting that, like, the personal connection with Jesus almost feels more needed in that moment as opposed to God. And I think that's a. Maybe a poor way of looking at it, because we have a personal connection with all of them. [00:19:24] Speaker C: But I think that's Carrie Underwood here. Not quite like the wheel. [00:19:29] Speaker B: No. Yeah, but seriously, I think that is like. That's what I've heard in a car wreck, is people will blurt out, like, jesus, please help them. Why? Well, again, I would say because he's more of a recognizable figure, so to speak, where God is, you know, an eternal light and tougher to approach, quote unquote. I don't know. I don't know fully what to make of it. But I agree with you that maybe being dogmatic on it is. I don't think the. Yeah, I don't think that's the best approach. [00:19:57] Speaker A: Let me add one thing, because I definitely agree. The dog. The dog. Being dogmatic about that has never made sense to me. Let me add one more passage of scripture, John 14. So obviously, this is right after he washes the disciples feet. He just told him, I'm the way, the truth, and the light. I want to start in verse ten. It's going to be five. Verse ten through 14, where Jesus is making the point that he is, quote unquote, in the father and the father is in him. I'll start in verse ten of John 14. Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the father in me? The words that I speak to you, I do not speak on my own authority, but the father who dwells in me, the works, believe me that I am in the father and the father in me. Or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. Most truly, I say to you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also. And greater works than these he will do, because I go to my father. And whatever you ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, saying, that's kind of interesting, that Jesus, you know, saying, hey, you know, me and my. Me and the father are kind of one. There obviously, that's the point he's making the disciples, and he tells them, if you ask anything in my name, essentially, I'll do it. And so, again, I just wanted to add that element for those who would say, never know, never praying to Jesus under any circumstances. Um, I think I'd be interested to hear the response to. To that section in John 14. [00:21:10] Speaker B: It is interesting. What they'd say is, we pray to the father, and then in Jesus name, amen, we always say, but is that not calling on Jesus in that way? [00:21:17] Speaker C: Well, that would be praying to the father with Jesus is our authority as the mediator. And it's kind of. And some people wouldn't even say this, but spirit inside us, Jesus beside us, father in front of us, is kind of the depiction there. And so that you are, again, keeping that line of separation without separating it. It's a trinitarian thing, again, that is very complex. And I don't know, I think, again, being super dogmatic about trinitarian things like that, other than just outright heresies, is. You're oversimplifying a very complex thing. [00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker A: So I'm going to go ahead and move us into the next question, and, Joe, I'll start with you here. So why is prayer important? We talked about, what is prayer? Why is prayer important? It might kind of seem like a odd question, like an obvious question. We probably won't spend as much time on this one as we did the first one and as we will in the next couple. But, Joe, why is prayer important? Why is this something that we as christians are expected to do? [00:22:16] Speaker B: Well, first things first. We're told on multiple occasions to pray. Ephesians 618, with all prayer and petition. Pray at all times in the spirit and with this in view, be on alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, and pray on my behalf. And continues. We have Philippians four, six, which I'll get to, which is be anxious for nothing, of course, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God first. Thessalonians 517. Pray without ceasing. Uh, lots and lots of prayer throughout scripture, where we're seeing the people of God. And that's. That's kind of to the Old Testament side. We see people's. God's people have always talked with or walked with God from the very beginning. We see with Adam, we see with Abraham. We see with Moses, with Elijah. Daniel prays three times a day. We have precedents set in scripture from the most holy men in the Bible, they're praying. The, the people that are on God's side are talking to God. They're walking with God in this day by day approach. Daniel, I think, is one of the best examples of this, where God may not be, and yes, in the dreams and such, I suppose it is. But he's not walking with God the way maybe Moses did or the way Adam did, of course. But the three times a day is keeping God top of mind. He's very much as a, he's not a Christian at the time. He's a good israelite. Clearly, he thought it was important, as did pretty much every other figure. Paul is constantly in prayer. I mean, every single, he starts basically every letter saying, I pray this for you. Well, I made this point on Sunday, which I think will be on focus or Patreon for the sermon last week, or whenever we're putting it out. But how many churches does Paul pray for? Well, we know the roman church, the corinthian church, the ephesian church, the Philippians. I mean, he's got all these different churches, Thessalonica, everything else, and he's praying for each of them, and he's praying specific things for each of them, and he's praying for specific people in each of them. Do you know how much prayer that is? Like, that's a significant amount of prayer when you're praying for this many names and this many things for this many churches, and this is just the stuff he records, how much more is he praying? So the precedent is pretty strong. Prayer is very important. The people that are closest to God are those that are praying people. I think it's very difficult to make the case that a Christian can go and basically just pray for his three meals a day with nothing more involved in his prayers other than thanking God for the food that he has and have him be a strong Christian. I don't think there's a correlation to no prayer and a strong Christian at all throughout scripture. So why is prayer important? There's a bazillion. And one examples is what I would say of people being drawn closer to God. I'll add that of people being drawn closer to God through prayer. [00:24:50] Speaker C: Right. I mean, that's, it's the two way system of he talks to you through the word, you talk to him through daily prayer. And both of them should be a part of your daily life of meditating on the word, getting in the word so that you can hear from him. And I mean, just so many times, it's, I wish I could hear from God. Well, you can just read the Bible and again, the faith of knowing, okay, now he's going to hear me. He can hear what I say and, you know, bringing things to his feet. And the more you pray, especially praying, and we'll get into some of this probably a little later, but praying in his will, praying with an open heart and mind to just put the cares before him and not demand things of him, but to just say, this is how it is. And you, I'm handing this to you, casting my anxieties on you. Then you see him at work, shaping it in the direction you're supposed to go, and you learn his character that way. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Well, and the other thing too, and I'm not sure if this one went off on focus plus a sermon cast or not, but I just preached a sermon on prayer as well from Matthew six. And one of the things that I pointed out that I mean really is obvious from the New Testament is that prayer, it draws you closer to God because of how much more you're communicating with him. You think about every relationship in your life that you're really somebody you're really close to. Odds are you probably communicate with them a good bit. And all the people in your life that you're not all that close to that maybe you want to be closer to, you probably don't communicate with them very much. It's a simple equation of the more you communicate with somebody, the closer you're going to be. And so that's why I feel like we have a lot of christians who don't really have strong relationships with God. It very much is a come to church, check off my box believe, you know, Professor God. But there's not really much more depth to my Christianity. There's not much more depth to my relationship with God. I think a lot of it could probably pointed back to their prayer life because there is not a lot of communication going on with God. It is very much a, when we pray before dinner, maybe I'll say a 22nd prayer at the end of the night as I'm half asleep, falling asleep, as we've talked about before, I again, I think that's you. You draw closer to God through, through more constant prayer, through more continual prayer. Just again, the simple, simple fact of the more you communicate, the closer you are. And again, I think this, that is something that you could probably look to as maybe the a symptom of why so many people don't have strong relationships with God is because those communication channels don't stay open. It is very much a, you know, before my, before my dinner and maybe a couple times a week. Other than that, prayer is important because the more communicate, the more we do. The more we communicate with God, the closer we are to him. And I think anybody who has an active prayer life would probably echo that. Like, you do feel closer to God, the more. I mean, because all of us have probably gone through seasons of prayer where we were really engaged, doing it often and maybe busier times where we weren't and we knew we should have been doing more. You feel closer to God the more you communicate with him. So that would be another thing why I would add that of why it's important. [00:27:42] Speaker C: There's also, I mean, we're, we're sitting here on computers, scattered by miles, talking, seeing each other face to face. Just stuff that was really hard to imagine when I was born. This kind of technology that's accessible to everyone. Everybody can do this in their own home. And you don't think twice about it. We get on and it's not like every single day you're like, wow, I can video chat with people all over the world. You just don't think about it. Well, it's kind of the same thing of like, you can talk to the God who created the universe with his voice and put your cares on him. You can ask him for help. You can just thank him for things. I mean, just that should I was. [00:28:22] Speaker A: The fascination of it. Yeah, right. [00:28:24] Speaker C: And again, anything that you do every day, that you're going to lose that a little bit, but try not to too much because that's what drives you back to. It's like, wow, I get to do this. This is insane. This is incredible. [00:28:34] Speaker B: It is a sad thing that it's kind of become the cliche preacher thing of read and pray. Read and pray. Yeah, I know, preacher. Thanks. There's such power in that. Don't let that become a cliche thing. We do get to approach the God of the universe. We get to let him know of our. And to your point, Will, it's not just a one sided conversation, as Jack said, it is the two way of getting the word. But to your point of, like, when I'm in a really good season of prayer, when I really feel like I'm connected to God, God's not giving me messages, he's not telling me things. But at the same time, I feel very much the spirits leading in my life, like, way more than I do when I'm disconnected from him. That's answer to prayer. That's me connecting with him. So I would say the last thing that I had on the outline, and we're going to get into, because we're already kind of answering this a little bit, but it does remind us of our dependence on him. We absolutely are dependent. We see this in Philippians four. I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. In that context, it's Paul going, I've been through, boom, boom, boom, boom, this, this, this. But I know I can do it because of Christ. I know I can do it because it does remind us of, like, we are fully dependent on God. We have nothing outside of him. Prayer aligns us with that. But the question that really kind of lingers on everybody's mind, we're already answering it some. Yes, we do believe that this is the case, but a lot of people are going to ask, does it actually work? Is it effective? We know James 516. [00:29:51] Speaker C: Really? [00:29:51] Speaker B: Does it change things? Yes. Right. In James 516, the effect of a prayer, of a righteous being accomplished as much. Okay, well, that's in the context of Elijah. I'm not Elijah in my righteousness. So does God answer my prayers? Does he listen to me? And I would say, just kicking this off, I'll throw it to you guys. I think we have to define, when we say, does it work or is it effective? Does changing, define work? Define effective. Define change. We have to ask, what is the purpose of our prayers? Are we looking to actively, you know, if it's effective and if the desire change the outcome is to. Right. And I think that's what people are looking at is which we will get to. Does it change the outcome? First and foremost, prayer is about aligning our will with gods, aligning where we are with God. I think that's we kind of have the God as a genie in a bottle, so to speak. We'll pull him out when we need him. And, you know, God, give me this and give me that. And there's the classic facing the giants. Every single time something's needed, it's like, oh, he gets a new truck. Oh, the football team wins. Oh. Oh, wow. This is amazing. God just answered prayer. That's not how it works because there are, there are a lot of good hearted christians. [00:30:54] Speaker A: There's not a single thing in that movie that went wrong. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Exactly. Well, they did lose the game, but then the team was cheating and so they're like, come on, guys, come on. And it gives this impression that everything you pray for, God will say yes to. It's the health and well gospel, the Joel Osteen, God's just waiting to bless you like so. Yeah, he was waiting to bless Israel, too, while he sent them into captivity for 70 years. It doesn't always work out in that way, the way we want it to. But if that is our conceptualization of prayer, which is I pray and he gives, we made God a genie and not the all powerful God of the universe. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Well, what I think is interesting about this question is essentially what we're asking is, does God step in? Does God step in and change the outcome? If I've got, if, if a, if my, if I found out tomorrow that one of my kids has cancer and I fervently prayed for them for the next two months based on my prayer, would God step in necessarily, and not even necessarily, would he? But could he, could God step in because of my prayer and heal my child? Not because, you know, not because he already knew that it was going to go away or because he was already planning on healing them, but because of my prayer? That's the, that's the interesting thing once again, praying for a new job. Me and my wife are looking for a house right now, praying that we'll find a house. Like, does God step in on those things or are those things already set in stone? And we got into this a lot with our Calvinism episode, actually kind of the predestination thing. But that, to me, I think that's what we're asking is, does God step in and change the outcome of things? Or was it already set in, was it already set in stone that my child was going to get healed or that we were going to find a house or that I was going to get the job promotion or any of those things? Because if it was already set in stone, the logical side of our brains tells us, well, then what's really the point of prayer? And so you have to, if you believe that, you know, these things are not set in stone, then you have to acknowledge that prayer does something. [00:32:44] Speaker B: But then we're not exactly, as we talked about in that episode, we're not open theists where God's just kind of along for the ride. Boy, we'll see what happens. I mean, there is a level of God is overall, obviously he knows all, but that's tough to square with scripture because it's, or it's tough to square with prayer because it's easier to have, like prayer becomes more powerful almost in a open theism type thing of God goes, yeah, yeah, I will grant that. And as it goes, because everything's not set but when you say God's will is set, then you go, is he really going to listen to me? And so there's two separate thoughts on this. [00:33:18] Speaker A: So, so what do you think on it, Joe? I'm curious. [00:33:20] Speaker B: Well, let me give you two separate thoughts because Jack and I, I think Jack and I may disagree on this a little bit, but he makes very good points. And so I'm going to let him get to the one side. [00:33:30] Speaker C: Will you go ahead and give the wrong side and then I'll knew that was coming. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Sure, sure. So there's a Cs Lewis idea and he has a book on prayer, how to pray. It's a fantastic book. And one of the points he makes is when God's laying out the foundation of the earth, foundation of everything. He knew back then, bazillion years ago that you were going to pray in this moment and maybe he decided to grant that prayer. If God knows all, then he looked ahead and the earth is not up. [00:33:57] Speaker A: As million years old, by the way. Joe does not believe. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, no. [00:33:59] Speaker A: Just to clear that up. [00:34:01] Speaker B: 6000 years, yes, but in, before time existed, when he sang out is all I'm saying. Yes. So maybe I shouldn't use years as that. Our conceptualization of eternity is just a bazillion, a bazillion, bazillion years. Yeah. Um, no, but before the 6000, 10,000, whatever it is, he's laying out everything, infinite wisdom, infinite time. And he says, you know, joe's going to pray for this on April whatever, you know, we're recording this on April 9, um, 2024. And because he prayed for that, I, I want to grant that. And so I'm going to, you know, work at my, in, in his again, infinite wisdom, that prayer, I'm going to answer that prayer with a yes, and that's to help. And then if he answers with a no, it's because he goes, okay, on the timeline. I know in two years, if I answer it yes today, then this isn't going to come about. And I need this to come about. Therefore it's a no today, but maybe a yes later or it's a no today because it would ultimately. [00:34:57] Speaker A: So that belief does kind of already believe it's set in stone. [00:35:00] Speaker B: It does believe it's set in stone, but he said it in stone at the beginning. He knew whether you would pray or not. And that's why people pray is because it's not in a real time thing. As much as he knew this was going to happen however long ago that is in eternity, before, up until, I mean, Jack and I have gone around and he's kind of brought about a different point as we've been going through Exodus, which I'm going to let him get into in a second, the second side of it. I think that makes a very strong case as to why we as christians should pray. Because a lot of people go, why pray at all? It's already set in stone. It doesn't matter. It's not going to change God's mind. Maybe it did all that time ago. Maybe he knew you were going to be righteous. The problem with that is you do get into some Calvinism of like, okay, has he determined who's righteous and who's not? There's other questions that are going to. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Pray and who's not, right? [00:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. But he does know, essentially, that he knew you were going to say that prayer and he knew that he wanted to grant that prayer for you in that time. So that's kind of how I believed. There are some challenges to that, though, Jack, get us into your side of it. Which brings us kind of to Exodus 32. [00:36:00] Speaker A: I'll play tiebreaker here. [00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah, Exodus 32 with Moses pleading to God, like, don't destroy your people after the golden calf. [00:36:07] Speaker C: Right. Because a lot of times people bring up the Abraham bargaining over Sodom and Gomorrah with lot. But at no point did God have to change anything in that, you know, other than, okay, this number is fine. This number's fine. Because he also knew, you know. [00:36:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm. He's humoring Abraham, you know, like to show Abraham, no, it really is that bad. It really does deserve everything it's about to get. Whereas with the Moses one, he tells Moses, all right, they're down there worshiping a golden calf. He says, I'm going to kill all of them and start over with you. And Moses kind of pleads, well, hold on, the Egyptians are going to see that, and what are they going to think of you as a God? Which is an interesting appeal. But also, hey, you got the promises to the fathers. This is kind of, remember, which, again, starting over with Moses would not have negated the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because it's still through the same line, still through the same family. He could have started over. And you kind of wonder, like, man, maybe it would have gone a little better. I mean, I know, again, it was always going to lead to Christ. It was always going to lead to man's failure. But it was such as he said, an obstinate generation that ended up having to fall in the wilderness and all that. And the funny thing is Moses comes down the mountain and when he gets to look at it, he's like, yeah, okay, no, we do need to start killing these people. And they do, they kill 3000 of them. But there is that idea of Moses kind of talking God off the ledge, talking God down from wiping everybody out. And so the question is, did he actually change God's mind? And the text is basically explicitly says God changed his mind. God relented. Yeah. And didn't do what he was planning to do, which is to kill everybody. And so the question is, was that for show or did he, does it mean what it says when it says he changed his mind and he relented? And I think a big part of that, and this doesn't necessarily contradict Joe's, like looking down the corridor. Well, not Joe's, but CS Lewis is looking down the corridors of time thing. But that God's respect for Moses was such that he and some, I heard somebody argue one time that essentially a prophet was somebody who was a junior member of the divine council, essentially a human member of getting to talk to God, getting to argue to God, getting to help God shape his plans. Because you see that with the Ahab and Micaiah thing, which we brought up on that previous podcast where God is kind of checking in with the divine council, like, well, how do we want to handle this? And letting them make suggestions as to what they're going to do. And that Moses and Abraham, those that were friends of God, kind of had that sway where they could go in before God and say, actually, let's do it this way. And God says, okay. And so allowing for that, I don't, again, I don't think that contradicts the thing that you said. I think yours is, or the Lewis thing is a tidy explanation for it, but it's a tidy explanation of something that might not need to be tidied up. It might be a little more complex and beyond our understanding, but maybe it is that way. I don't know. I don't know that I'm arguing something terribly different. [00:39:02] Speaker B: The struggle that I have with that one specifically is, correct me if I'm wrong, Moses was not from the tribe of Judah. Correct. So all of the, theoretically, all of the things that are coming before, of the promise made to Judah, Genesis 50, all these things would have kind of been broken if God had decided to start over with Moses. Like, yeah, the lineage of Christ would have continued because it would have been that. But there's all these blessings that Isaac gave the pass down to his kids, that would have never come to fruition because it only been through Moses. So it seems like, I mean, God's clearly aware of that. Everything works out perfectly. So I've been an advocate for, like, yeah, it seems like God has the ability to. Because multiple times it kind of talks about God. I shouldn't say multiple, but at least that occasion, I think there's at least another one where God changed his mind. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Which, because you don't want to get into a position where you're arguing that God was just in a fit of rage and he forgot that Moses wasn't of the tribe of Judah and all these things. [00:39:54] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:39:55] Speaker A: You know, nobody's going to argue. Maybe he did make it tough. [00:39:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:58] Speaker B: So that's the one. Yeah. It's a tough explanation or it's a tough question. Yeah. Will, do you have any thoughts on it? [00:40:04] Speaker A: No. I have kind of always leaned towards the idea that the quote, unquote, and as we discussed in the Calvinism episode, um, kind of the big items on the bullet point, so to speak, on the timeline, like, God has pretty well set those in stone and there's nothing that's going to change those. Uh, obviously, Jesus and, you know, a lot of various things throughout the Bible and maybe throughout history, but about whether or not I'm going to get the job promotion, I don't know that he's necessarily set that in stone and that my prayer could change that or that he's going to heal my, you know, dad from his cancer again. Like, I do find it a little bit more realistic to think that maybe he has not mapped that out. He knows, but maybe he has not mapped that out. And then my prayer, you know, where my. The ferventness of my prayer, whether or not I'm righteous, which we'll get to here in just a second. And I'm praying those things. I have always tended to believe that that might have some sway and that's not as set in stone, which I don't know where that fits into what you guys said, but that's always kind of been what I believed is, again, the really big points, the bullet points, the boilerplate stuff on the timeline is set in stone, but call it the more minor things are not. [00:41:15] Speaker C: Okay. [00:41:16] Speaker B: So. [00:41:16] Speaker C: So I'm going to throw in an off outline thing here as well. We've all known a lot of people who prayed for somebody to be healed and even against the. All the odds and the doctors, you know, what they said was possible. There was a healing and there's been a lot of people we prayed for who died. And that's where a lot of people lose faith. Is this is all random. God is not actually over this. It's just some people get better and some people don't. You know, like I asked and they asked and of course the faith healers are always doing the well, you just didn't have enough faith. If you had more faith, you know, grandpa wouldn't have died. Well, there's an obvious point at which there's no promise that you can pray people out of death. I mean, like we would have 2000 year old people if that's how it worked. Um, and so everyone's going to die at some point, but is it a matter of faith? Is it a matter of the, the righteousness of the people doing the praying? Is it a matter of, um. And I think just the most simple thing is it's not always in God's will that that person continue on. But man, you see some really tragic things of, of children passing away or young adults, people with families, you know, thinking bad things happening and, well, where was prayer? And that is a question people really come to. [00:42:25] Speaker A: And does Hezekiah come into this as well as somebody that I thought of, somebody who was going to die, prayed for additional time? Like did God set that in stone all the way back? I don't know. That's just in a very interesting, like, it seems to me Hezekiah, quote unquote, influenced God through his prayer, through his petition to extend his life. [00:42:45] Speaker B: See, I think that God does have more laid out, and I've used this before, I think on the podcast. I certainly preached on it. You know, I prayed 10,000 times for God to take away my porn addiction when I was 1314, 1516 years old. And it was no, no, no. Like you didn't miraculously take it away. First off, I not humbled myself fully in the way that I should have, which is going to get us into this next point of prayer of a righteous man. But second off, if he had taken it away at 14 years old, miraculously, I wouldn't do what I do every single day, so, which is to get to counsel people out of porn addiction. God knew exactly what he was doing in answering no to my prayer. I thought God didn't care. I thought he was just content to let me, you know, wallow basically in my sin. Of course he wasn't, but that's what your 16 year old mind conceptually speaks like. He doesn't answer my prayer. He absolutely did. He had a much bigger plan. That's what tells me God's laid out a lot. If he knows. Just I'm not going to miraculously take it away. I need you to humble yourself, do whatever it takes. But then also I'm going to use this to my glory, which is kind of the thorn in the flesh side of things, but you get to the righteous side of it, which is. What does it actually mean? Go for it. [00:43:49] Speaker A: I was just say, I love that point, especially when it comes to your story, just to. Because we've already demonstrated we don't really care about the timer at this point or the outline to present the alternative. What do you do with the person who is the exact opposite of your story? They earnestly pray for their parent to who again, I'm going to keep using the cancer analogy to be healed. They're not healed and they turn their back on God forever. And they choose to, you know, go down the other path that once. I mean, to me, that's the reverse of your story. So what do you, what would you do with, with a situation like that? [00:44:20] Speaker B: Both take faith in understanding God is at play in a much bigger way. We would like to think that God's not a respecter of persons. That means he doesn't really respect me and he didn't like in that way. We don't know that he took them for a very specific reason. This is where the faith in God has to come in of God had a reason for why that took place. We don't understand the reason because we're not God, but there's a reason why. And yes, it's very easy for me. I haven't like, lost a child or I haven't lost a very close loved one. So of course, in my naivete and whatnot, like, it's easy for me to go, well, yeah, just have faith. It's insanely, insanely difficult, especially mixed in with the grieving process and everything else in that moment. But I do think those who come through it stronger are those who recognize God had a much bigger plan involved. And you go, how does God have a bigger plan? When I've been praying for my unrepented parent, you know, my, my, uh, non christian parent, to come to him, and then the non christian parent dies. However old they were, God gave them that many years. They turned their back on God time and again. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, there's free will element to this, right? [00:45:23] Speaker B: God doesn't. Yeah, exactly. And God doesn't owe you anything. He doesn't owe you anything. My point in my story is, if you allow it, if you humble yourself and allow for really recognizing, like, why did God do this? God always has a reason, and there are people that will never find out the reason. I was fortunate enough to, I think, find out the reason as to why he told me no that many times there are people that will never find out the reason doesn't mean God doesn't have one. Doesn't have a reason. He does it just. You may not be privy to what that is, but this is the importance of, like, recognizing there are trillions of tendrils. Think about how many decisions. There are 8 billion people on the planet. How many decisions are made every single day from the average person. Tens of thousands of decisions every single day. Okay, 8 billion people. This is every day. This is one day. God is aware of all of those things, and he's aware of how all of those things affect time. The thought of us being able to understand, it's kind of the butterfly effect. You know, flaps of swings, causes tsunami. This is, I think, how prayer works and how our decisions work. So when somebody dies, we go, God wasn't listening to me. There is some person in Africa that comes to Christ because your parents die. That sounds really flippant to say, but legitimately, like, I do think that's how it works, is God knows how everything is affected. And because this person died, on the way to the funeral home, they happened to see a billboard that happened to say such and such, which caused them to do x, y and z, which caused them. We have no concept of how delicate this. This is. So when those things happen, you don't know what was triggered that could essentially change the entire course of the world because your parents died. You just don't know. So that's the faith I have in God, is to say, yeah, he's over. That I can't begin to understand. I don't even know the decisions I make on a day by day basis. He's aware of 8 billion. Yeah. The faith has to come in to recognize, there is that. But I do want to get to the righteous question. What does it tangibly mean? Because this is another thing that we add in, is how much weightier in the tendrils of time and everything else, how much weightier is the righteous persons? It does talk about the effective prayer of a righteous man. We know that our sins. Isaiah 59, one and two. Right. As sin separates from God. His hand isn't so short that it can't say, but we do separate ourselves from God through our sin? Does God just, does he hear only the prayers of the righteous, or does he hear everybody's prayer? Or is it just that they have a. They make more of a dent, so to speak, in, like, God is more willing to answer their prayers than somebody else's prayers because this is where the CS Lewis kind of the corridors of time falls apart a little bit, I think, is, is he really, if he's laid out everything, then is it that he sees that you're going to be righteous and in that moment he goes, I really want to make this work because you're a righteous guy, whereas everybody else is. I don't really care about making it work. I'll do what I want. Like, that's a little bit of the discussion that I have. So what are your guys thoughts on that? [00:48:13] Speaker C: Well, I don't see a problem with that, actually, that it would work that way, but it also could be that the righteous are naturally more aligned with his will already. And so they get there. You know, you brought up the, the Elijah thing, and it explicitly says there in James five of, he was a man with a nature like ours. And so it's not like he's a superpowered human, like we might think. But there's a righteousness you have here, the matter of one Peter three seven, where husbands who aren't treating their wives properly, God is telling them, you're not going to be heard until you get that right. And it goes along with what Jesus said in Matthew five of if you've got a problem with somebody else, don't come worship. Don't come offer a sacrifice. Go make that right, because, and to bring in another one first. John, you can't hate your brother and say you love God. And so all of those things, like. [00:49:01] Speaker B: You got to be right with your. [00:49:02] Speaker C: Fellow man treating your wife right or whatever that can affect how God hears you. But I do think the Davids, the Moses, the Abrahams, the Elijahs, or whatever, that there is a weight that God puts on prayer. But on the other hand, you got a Cornelius, whos not yet a Christian, but hes an honest seeker, and you have the promise from Jesus. Whoever asks, seeks, knocks, you know, those things will be answered to them. And so I think there's that side of it. If you don't have to be saved to have your prayers heard, but you need to be seeking. But I think the further along you go, you know, some people's prayers probably move more than, than others. I don't have a problem saying that. [00:49:44] Speaker A: I don't have a lot to add. I think you sum that up really well. I mean, even verse 15 that we didn't really talk about because the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man is in James 516, verse 15, James blatantly says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord will raise him up. So I think there's a, there's a certain faith element to it as well, of how much faith you actually have in your prayer. Are you just, you know, well, I'm really praying for my, uh, parent to heal from cancer, but that's just because kind of what I'm supposed to do or no, like. Cause that's when he goes into Elijah, who earnestly prayed that it would not rain. And then, you know, again, as everything that Jack just said, so I agree. I don't have a ton to add to that. I do think it makes sense, again with the first Peter three passage of our prayers being hindered if we're not in a right state with God. Yeah, it makes sense that those who are righteous, those who are seeking, they're going to get a little bit more weight added to their prayers than those who, again, are just doing it flippantly. Or, you know, you think about the person who's living, living in open sin and prays before their meals. God hearing that prayer, the person who is living with their girlfriend, you know, sleeping together, you know, again, kind of disregarding what God says, and then all of a sudden wants to pray for a job promotion. Like, I just. Obviously, it seems like common sense wise would tell you there's a little bit less weight to that prayer. [00:50:58] Speaker B: Well, this is the, this is the difficulty is did God answer, not answer my prayers as a porn addict because I was in the midst of my porn addiction. Is that why he didn't answer? And if I was, but then were. [00:51:09] Speaker A: You honestly seeking to try to get out of it? [00:51:11] Speaker B: Which I think I was. And that's where praying to be saved. [00:51:14] Speaker C: From sin is not the same as what Will's talking about of praying for something else while you're going on in the sin. [00:51:18] Speaker B: While you're in sin. [00:51:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:20] Speaker B: But this is where a lot of people would get tripped up, is I feel like I'm righteous. This is where workspace salvation can easily enter the picture. I would say, like, I feel like I'm righteous. I think I'm doing the right things. But the one sin maybe that I have, like, that's why God didn't answer my prayer is because, you know, I said a lie, and I repented of it. But I think that God just didn't answer because of that. I think we can really, if we're not careful, we can really walk. Right. But I think a lot of people do think that of, like, I basically, I have to be perfect in order for God to really answer my prayers. And this is, well, what. What did his parents do wrong? Right. When the Pharisees are asking Jesus what his parents do wrong and. And what sin does this man bear because of whatever it is? Like, hey, the rain falls and the just. And the unjust, like, the. The tower falls. This is just how life happens, so to speak. It's not just because he was a sinner or whatever else, but this is the mind. Yes, it was the jewish mind. We do the same thing today is, oh, that bad thing must have happened because there's sin. Jack, to your point of the faith healer, you didn't have enough faith. You have an unrepentant of sin. And so people comb through their lives going, what's my sin? What did I do? Did I. When you end up like job, did I hurt God? Exactly. All right, job. What you do, what you do, and people, again, comb through their lives going, what is in my life that's causing God to not answer my prayers? That's the danger of taking this too far. So there is absolutely a point in your earnestness. [00:52:37] Speaker A: But there's a danger, I think, you know, if you have an unrepentant sin in your life, like, again, there's a difference in that versus, like, man, did I slip up here and there? Like, I don't. That's not what I'm talking about. [00:52:50] Speaker C: There's, even with David, the prayer. Oh, I know that's not what we're talking about. Sin. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker B: Exactly. And I know that's what you're talking about. I'm just saying I think there's a lot of christians that have that concept. [00:53:00] Speaker A: Of which I think is the one and done approach. Right? [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. So it's an interesting discussion. And I've often thought about the homeless guy on the side of the road. Okay. He's praying. I don't know why I said homeless. I guess you can be homeless and christian, but, like, the. I'm talking about the. Maybe the degenerate, right? The guy who's been kicked to the curb. He's a drunk. He's a. Whatever it may be. And so let's say he's praying to God. Will God answer his prayers? Well, if God, if it's in alignment with God's will. But then is God answering the prayer of him, or is God going along in his will and doing what he would have done anyway? Like, does that guy's prayer have any weight in changing God's mind or in God answering that guy's prayer? Or is it God going, I was going to do it anyway. The other question that I would bring in and Jack, you have an interesting thought. I think we've gone, we've talked about this, of Jesus in the garden. We talk about aligning our will with his, and this will probably be the last thing we get to in just the effective part. We're going to have to push to part two, fellas, I think because we got a bunch more on the outline to get to that we have not. And this is going to leave room for more questions, more thoughts, more comments, things like that. That again, we got a lot more questions that we may already be addressing, but continue to ask your questions as we go to part two. But Jesus is in the garden. Not my will, but yours, right? He's praying for that. Um, I'm curious, Jack, I think you have some, maybe some different thoughts, because I don't want to get into the very deep discussion of can Jesus and God have two different wills, you know, um, as him being all God? Because that's a different discussion for a different time, I suppose. But, um, as this pertains, you know, you've got the homeless guy. Like, God's will seems to be set in that situation, and it seemed to be set in the garden. Now, Jack, I think you have a different view, and I don't, again, I don't know that I want to open up into full discussion on the garden how that works, but this is the exact opposite end. You have the guy who's just an absolute bum, who has left his family, a drunk, a horrible man, whatever it is, and he's praying to God. And God says, well, you know, I don't think God's going to bend his will to the opposite side and go, I was going to do it, but because you prayed for it, I'm not going to do it anymore. Like, I don't think that's how it works, per se. But you go to the other side of Jesus being absolutely perfect, and he seems to be praying, let this cup pass for me. And Hebrews five seems to indicate that in a way God did answer it. At the same time, it seems like maybe God didn't answer that prayer. And so what a lot of people. [00:55:24] Speaker A: Think is answered it and not in a way that. Right. Answered it not in an affirmative way. [00:55:29] Speaker C: Sure. [00:55:30] Speaker A: You're saying, yeah. [00:55:31] Speaker B: So, Jack, I'm curious your thoughts on that, especially as it comes to aligning our will with God's, that is a man who's clearly righteous, but God says no in that way. So it seems obviously God doesn't have to say yes. But I think you do have a different view. And the reason why I bring it in is this is a tripping up passage, I think, for a lot of people as to even if jesus prays for it, it doesn't happen. So what are your thoughts on that? [00:55:54] Speaker C: Well, I think it actually would affirm a lot of what we said here if that were the case of there's a set will that you know, and that there's sometimes where there's permission to ask for something different and then there's times where no, it's going to be what it's going to be. But the issue of was he actually praying for to not die, I guess, or some people say to lighten the suffering. I don't really just see that anywhere in the text, but there's really interesting article on Theopolis, I guess. Theopolis.org just Theopolis institute the Biblestudy people and he was arguing that what Jesus was praying was to be rescued from the grave, that his soul would not be abandoned to sheol, undergo decay, as the psalms say. And because what Hebrews five says is he was heard because of his piety, he was offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the one able to save him from death. And he was heard because of his piety. And you know the standard answer that would be, well, he was heard. And the answer is, well, I heard you, but no. Or if it's don't leave me in the grave. And the guy makes a lot of a strong case for this because Jesus had said before the garden, what am I supposed to ask to be delivered from this? This is why I'm here. This is what I came for, was to do this. [00:57:14] Speaker A: Like he knew he had to die. [00:57:16] Speaker C: Right. And like I'm not going to ask to be saved from, from the cross, from, delivered from this hour because it's, it's why I'm here. And so when you're asking, well then, what is the cup that he's asking to pass from him? Some people say the suffering itself, again, I don't see that it makes sense that it is the. And again, you'll have to look up the article on Theopolis. I shared it on, on my own facebook page, but it's just easier to go to their site. But that he was asking in perfect alignment with God's will that God was pleased to grant him that of. Yeah, I'm not gonna, not gonna leave you in the grave. It's exactly as planned. On the third day, you're coming out of there. But that would be an alternate interpretation to the praying in God's will versus praying separate from God's will, that the son and the father don't have separate wills there, as it is often interpreted. [00:58:02] Speaker A: I love, I love that whole discussion. I think that's so interesting to me. You have, that you have. Was, did God actually forsake Jesus during those three days? You know, we see him tell the thief on the cross that he's going to be with him in paradise. So we would assume Jesus went to paradise, but then there's also passages about going and preaching the spirits in prison. It didn't leave his soul in Hades. So, yeah, it's such an interesting discussion. There's obviously not really a time and place right here, but I would agree with Jack in that, based on hebrews five, based on saying that God affirmatively answered, you know, in a way that, you know, he was heard because of his godly fear, his piety. If Jesus was praying, hey, I don't, you know, take this cup of suffering away from me, this cup of death from me, physical death, then it would seem that God's answer was no. It, to me, it does make more sense that Jesus is praying, hey, don't leave my soul in Hades. And that is what Peter emphasizes in acts two with, you know, the, the psalm from the Old Testament psalm that, you know, David talking about, he did not leave his soul in Hades. So, yeah, I would agree with that. That's, to me, what makes the most sense about what Jesus was praying for, which was in line with God's will. And you say, well, Jesus mentioned, you know, Jesus knew he was going to rise from the dead in three days. He talked about that all throughout his ministry. I feel like there still would have to be some level of faith if you're going to be put to physical death of, like, God is going to have to be the one to raise him up. Jesus can't raise himself. And so there, even if you knew that was going to happen or believe that was going to happen, I think there is still some level of God, don't leave me down there. Make sure you're bringing, make sure you raise me up. Don't leave my soul in hades. Like, you know, you're, you're giving up some element of control there if you're Jesus, when you're going to your physical death. Because again, he didn't raise himself up. You see that in acts. God raised him up. God raised him up over and over again. So to me that makes the most sense. [00:59:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know that I fully buy it, that I fully agree, but just because of what you said, which is I don't think at any point Jesus, in my opinion, because time and again, like destroy the temple in three days, all raise it throughout his ministry like it is going to. He didn't just say God's raising me. So he knew the time, he knew how long it was going to be. He was going to be in the grave. And this has been foretold since the very beginning. We just taught on the feast of, what is it? The feast of first fruits, which was on the third day after the start of Passover. I mean, these things have been laid out. [01:00:12] Speaker A: Okay, so we're going, we're going to episode two. So we've got, what do you think Jesus was praying for? [01:00:17] Speaker B: I personally think that the immense suffering of his friends forsaking him of everything that's about to happen, I, he knew he was going to death. I don't think he was trying to pray to get out of death because that's very clear. I think the flesh part of Jesus is looking at it going, I'm about to be beaten, I'm about to be scourged. I'm about to be, have a crown of thorns placed on my head and nailed to a cross. He is all human. I mean, there is, he's all man or he's also God, but he's all human. Like he does experience pain. And if you're looking at the, the sweating drops of blood, I mean, I look at it as what would cause that? Yeah, the thought of being permanently separated from God. But the whole point of Jesus coming to earth was for him to ultimately raise from the dead. Like if that was not ever promised, if that wasn't, I don't think Jesus would have left heaven. If that was like 50 50 proposition. I would also argue, I might not. [01:01:08] Speaker A: I would also argue, though, that Jesus knew the Old Testament prophecies that talk about his hands and feet being pierced, like that couldn't have changed. So like what, what exactly was Jesus praying for? [01:01:18] Speaker B: I think he's a lesson and it talks about in Isaiah 53. You're right. He was scourged for our transgressions. Like, yeah, all of everything was prophesied before, but as was his resurrection. So it's difficult to say. Exactly. [01:01:29] Speaker C: You're casting it as, as he's sitting there going like that. He was doubting the resurrection so much as like a. This. All right, this was the deal. Let's, you know, please, you know, like. [01:01:39] Speaker A: There'S a level of faith to go into that. Yeah. [01:01:42] Speaker C: Right. And, and that's where Hebrews five is exactly talking about. If he learns obedience from the things he suffered, and he was perfected by those things, of he had to. That is the only point at which God ever had to exercise faith, is in that. And so to yours, it would. The only way that he did not have a separate will from the father, the only way in which the answer was not no is if it was the resurrection. Because if it's the suffering thing, he was told no, you're wrong. You do. [01:02:07] Speaker A: That's what I was going to ask Joe. Like, how would you explain Hebrews five, then? [01:02:11] Speaker B: I mean, I think in the days of his flesh, he offered a ton of prayer, like, for multiple things. I understand what he's saying. I don't think he did abandon him to death. [01:02:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:19] Speaker B: So to that extent, I do see that to your point, Hebrews five is a challenge to me. But at the same time, I have a difficult time seeing Jesus having to have faith when it's literally been told all along. It would be the same thing as. It's the opposite of your point of like, well, these things have been told all along. Yes. So is the resurrection. So is the third day. He's known that from day one. Both require a level of faith, both require a level of obedience, of literally going to the worst human death of all time. Like, it's tough to imagine a worse death than that. And he and his flesh is going to have to undergo that, versus. I feel like my father's going to abandon me to Hades for all time. [01:02:58] Speaker C: That's not that exactly. We're not saying that it's. Again, it's the. All right, you know, remember, this is, this is the deal. And not that he's. [01:03:06] Speaker B: But that was a possibility. [01:03:07] Speaker C: It's not that he's doubting it. [01:03:08] Speaker B: It's that where's faith? [01:03:09] Speaker C: Huh? It's just, it's saying, all right, if it could. I'm laying my life down. I did not regard equality of the God a thing to be grasped. I'm laying this down now. Now it's your turn to do your part. I've, and he says in John 17, I've glorified you, now you glorify me. They've taken turns at this and that. He did his part and now he's saying, your turn to do yours. Because the other thing about it, hey, there's no, there's no textual indication in the entire Bible that he's saying, please don't make me suffer. You have to read that in, because the other thing Hebrews five says is with the, the offered prayers, supplications, loud crying and tears, to the one able. [01:03:41] Speaker A: To save him, save him from death. [01:03:42] Speaker C: Is literally what it says. And so, like, again, it's not a verse you can point to where it says, I don't want to suffer because. [01:03:50] Speaker A: The other thing I have a hard time get coming to grip grips with is like, so Jesus was saying, God, can you make it a little easier on me and make sure. Very bad. Make, yeah, make it not, not quite as bad. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Unless the thought was that he was going to hang on the cross for three straight days alive. Like, I don't know if he did answer it in the fact that he did lessen, then that would answer it. I see the points you guys are making, but the point of, well, he didn't doubt, but he had to have faith if it couldn't happen otherwise. I don't have to like have faith that, I don't know, I'm trying to think of something that's basically an assured thing. Okay, well, then there, I don't really have faith in it. I know it's going to happen. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Well, you, we believe we're going to heaven when we die. Is there not still some level of faith? Well, there's just some level. [01:04:39] Speaker B: Think I came, I don't think I came from heaven and I'm God himself. Like, I don't think it's been foretold from the foundations of the earth that I am going to rise in three days. [01:04:47] Speaker C: Like, but that's exactly it where it's talking about. He became like us to experience what we've experienced because God's never died before. And so, like, he has knowledge of what death is and what it's like, but he's never gone through it. And that's exactly what Hebrews is saying is he can relate to us because he's been, I see he's now been. [01:05:02] Speaker B: Through what we've been through and he. [01:05:03] Speaker C: Had never done that before. And, and so now he has. And again, God was going to have. [01:05:09] Speaker A: To be the one. [01:05:09] Speaker C: Literally, what it's saying is that he's learning faith, he's learning obedience, he's learning those things because God doesn't have to obey people, he's God. Well, here it just seems like the. [01:05:17] Speaker B: Text is indicating severe duress. And what you're saying is like, all right, God, come through for me. That's not sweating drops of blood. That's not like I'm, that I would argue there is. [01:05:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:30] Speaker B: What you're saying is doubt. You're terrified it's not gonna work, which is doubt. No, I don't understand how you'd have that much distress if it's coming through. [01:05:37] Speaker C: Well, because he's about to have a crown of thorns and nails. [01:05:40] Speaker B: And to my point, yes, no, no, it's about to get like, this is. [01:05:44] Speaker C: Gonna be really, really hard. But that's in, the other thing Hebrew says is that he went through that with his eyes on the goal on the other side. And so that's what he's sitting down praying for is like the only reason I'm going through this is because I know what's going to happen on the other side. So, you know, like, that's what I. [01:05:58] Speaker A: This is the first time you could argue in Jesus's ministry where he was not going to have control. He had control over who he was healing. He had control over again, just about everything until the point of death. That is a point where, I mean, I could see that again, I don't want to like put myself in Jesus's shoes or anything, but like I could see sweat, drops of blood from that being separated, separated from the father. To the point where again, you know, you're going to, you cannot control whether or not you raise from the dead, that is, or whether you rise from that. That is going to be on the father. It's either that, you know, that is not that he was doubting, but I do think that would be some pretty intense reason for sweat drops. Especially if Jesus, if Jesus's mind, which all the way from since he was twelve years old, Jesus's mind was on the things of the father, was on high minded things, was on spiritual eternal things. For him, then to be really sweating drops of blood based on, man, you know, the pain that I'm going to experience just seems like a sidestep in a way. Does that make sense? Like, I, I'm not saying that that wasn't on his mind at all, but I feel like what was obviously far more on his mind was separation from the father going down into hades, going into hades, going into the realm of the dead, and knowing God was going to have to raise him up. [01:07:08] Speaker B: It would make more sense. [01:07:09] Speaker A: Versus man, I sure would like for this pain to be. To be a little bit easier. [01:07:13] Speaker B: It would make more sense to me to have the sweating drops of blood to be about to blend in the fact that. And yes, more to your side, but to have the sweating drops of blood be about the physical pain he's about to undergo and yes, the separation from God, whatever that looks like, which, you know, is, again, a different discussion, but to have it be about that, but to have the prayer itself be about, don't leave me in the grave. But I have it again, it can't. There can't be doubt in that. And I know you guys are saying that there's not doubt. If it was sweating drops of blood, of, like, what if God actually leaves me? Okay, but the sweating drops of blood are about. And the. The duress is about what he's about to undergo and the fear of. And I don't know if it's fear. Can God experience fear? Like, seems like there is. So it's just a difficult discussion. And I know this is topic from the prayer end of things, but it is. [01:08:01] Speaker C: Well, it's the oldest, asking God's will and. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:08:06] Speaker B: So God didn't say no to Jesus, which is what you've heard at countless table talks around the Lord supper, because I would say God did say no. [01:08:13] Speaker A: I guess that's what I'm asking. [01:08:14] Speaker B: If it was even about the. It. Maybe it could have been way worse. All of those things were to fulfill scripture. But maybe it could have been way worse. Like, if that was the case, I still don't think God said no. And I know your point. I know your point. It seems. No, I have a very tough time seeing there be any. And I guess let the cut. Let this cut pass for me. When you read through the text, I think you also have to read into it death as the cup passing from me, it seems like a very present cup. As to where he is, to me, it seems to be the cup of God's wrath. [01:08:44] Speaker A: That's where. That's what I get from that. [01:08:46] Speaker B: Well, yeah. [01:08:47] Speaker A: Jeremiah, like the wine, did not want. [01:08:49] Speaker B: God's wrath to stay on him, which probably speaks to yours. Probably speaks to mine. In some ways, I don't think he wanted to have to experience all of God's wrath, which he did on the cross. That's my point. Is let this cup pass from the. [01:08:59] Speaker A: Cross in separation from God. Both, I would say. [01:09:04] Speaker B: Yeah, but then we have to discuss what exactly is he doing in those three days in the grave, which is. [01:09:11] Speaker A: An hour ten already. [01:09:12] Speaker B: So are we really holy? [01:09:14] Speaker C: I don't think we're going to settle it here. And we do have enough questions to push to next week. Obviously, we'll have a deep end on this for focus plus. And so there's a lot more here because we've got a lot more of the practical side of prayer, of praying at home with your wife, with your children. A lot of questions that come up on that. And so submit your questions. [01:09:33] Speaker A: I would. [01:09:34] Speaker C: So, yeah, if you have anything you want us to cover, because we did do half an outline, so we probably going to need a little more for next week with all that. Unless Joe gets ranting again about, uh, uh, about Jesus in the garden. Um, but no, I'll fire the debate back up. Right, right. [01:09:48] Speaker B: Another 30 minutes. All right. [01:09:50] Speaker C: Exactly. Uh, well, and we'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Who, who's right? Who's wrong here? Um, you guys are probably right, but. [01:09:57] Speaker B: I hate to admit that you guys are probably right again. [01:10:01] Speaker C: I mean, bring scripture. This is not an idea I hold really hard because I came to this, found that article a month ago and went, wow, he makes a lot of good points. So again, you can check that article out on Theopolis. Give us your thoughts on that prayer. Again, questions, anything else? And again, as we said at the top, if you hear any ads that are a little bit off, let us know. We're trying to monitor that. We're keeping an eye on it. But I appreciate it. Appreciate you guys being understanding. We're not trying to spam you too much, but we are trying to keep focus, press afloat. And so, thank you for listening again. Get us your comments, thoughts, and we will talk to you guys next week.