Should These Hymns Be Removed From Our Song Books?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Podcast presented by Focus Press. We are doing a fun one today. We decided we've covered some heavy topics recently. We were, we were talking about. Yeah. What we wanted to do and what was next. And we threw out a couple heavier topic ideas, I suppose, and I thought, you know what, let's just keep it light. Seems like that could be used for the time being, just keeping things fairly fun. And so we decided there's going to be a fun portion at the end of this where we're going to actually do blind ranking of church songs. And I'm actually, I'm pretty pumped about this one. I put together a good list for Will. We put together a list for each other, so we're going to blind rank those. But before we get into that, we wanted to go through church songs because we sing these every single Sunday. Excuse me, Sing them every single Sunday. We grow up knowing these in church. If you didn't grow up in the church, you're going to become well acquainted with these pretty quickly, at least some of the key ones. Because we sing the same songs over and over and over, seemingly. And so there's a lot of great songs out there, a lot of great songs, but there's a few that we would consider potentially problematic. I don't know, just in terms of lyrics. And is this legit? Is it, is this biblical? And what we wanted to do is specifically say, okay, is it a nitpick? Is this a legitimate gripe or is it a nitpick as we go through some of these songs? And so, fellas, that's just to set up the. This about to call it a session. That's just to set up the episode here. But anything that you want to do or say, introductory speaking before we get into this episode, we talk a lot. [00:01:38] Speaker C: About the importance of paying attention to the lyrics we sing. And yet still some of them we just sing so many times it doesn't really register what we're saying. And in good ways and in bad and some things like, man, if you really think about it, there's some depth there. That's. That's great stuff. And then others you think about it, like, why, why did we say that? Why do we think those things or sing those things and say them out loud? But you know, the, the Bible talks about, we're, we're kind of taught by our songs. Israel was taught by the Psalms. Like, this is important stuff. And these things stick with us. I mean, learning through song is, is a great way to learn. And so it's kind of important we get it right. [00:02:15] Speaker A: I heard a sermon one time where the preacher went through just kind of a bunch of songs and was laying out some of the problems with them. And the first thought I had was kind of okay, like a little nitpicky there. There needs to be some allowance for poetic license, if you will. Like, if we're taking everything very, very literally, then maybe we shouldn't do that. Which I do think there's still an element of that. Like again, there's, you know, poetic license to songs. However, Jack, I do think your point is very valid about songs teaching us. We do know from EPH that that is part of the purpose of us singing together is to, is to teach and admonish one another. That's Colossians, I think. But so that would be, that would be. The only thought that I have to start is like, yes, there is an element of they're not scripture, obviously, but these are the hymns that we sing every single Sunday have, are backed by a lot of scripture and are things that I would encourage you to echo what Jack said. Don't just sing them without thinking about them. Don't just sing them and, and not really process through what those words are saying about God, about Christ. And you know, they're, they're really, they're really important theological songs. And so yeah, we want to cover some of these that are, that some have deemed problematic. Again, as Joe laid out, we're going to establish. Are these a legitimate gripe or is this a nitpick? Some of these, I'll be honest, I was looking up a lot of articles and some of them I was like, to be honest, I would not have ever known that that was controversial, but maybe I need to pay more attention. So guys, let's go ahead and get started with the first one. Very well known, probably the. I would say this or How Great Thou Art have to be the most well known church hymn of all time. And that is Amazing Grace. I, I think Amazing Grace probably does take the cake there. But the problem that people have with this one. And again, listen, if you're listening, going like, are they really talking about this again? As Joe said, we're, you know, light hearted. If you're a church Christ person, you'll probably enjoy this episode because you know all these songs. But guys, An Amazing Grace, I believe it's the second verse. Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear? The hour I first believed is the way the verse goes. And so where those of Us in the church of Christ would. Would maybe disagree with that is say, okay, well, the grace didn't appear the hour that you believed unless you know you're getting baptized within an hour. It's kind of a bapt. Nitpick, to be honest. They'll say that, you know, that song is implying that you receive grace just when you believe. So I actually type thing. Yeah, exactly like Sinner's prayer. So I'm curious, Yalls thoughts. Is this a legitimate gripe or a nitpick? Joe, we will kick it back around to you. What are your thoughts? [00:04:51] Speaker B: I'm on the nitpick end. I think this is a pretty big nitpick. The hour I first believe, I always took it as, yeah, the hour of my baptism is when I received grace. And so I didn't really look further past that. I don't know. I. I think the. It depends on how you want to define belief. Like, the moment that your belief took action, I suppose, is baptism. I don't know. You can really get into the gray area here. But I don't think by singing this song, somebody's going to go off the deep end and be like, see, you know, I'm good to go. Because I just. I believed and that's when I received. Maybe. But to me, it's a nitpick. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:26] Speaker B: I honestly, I did not know this was going to be on the list. The other ones, I'm very familiar with, like, pretty much all the other ones. I am. I didn't know this was a nitpick for people. Or maybe it's not a nitpick. Maybe it's a massive problem. I don't know. But, Jack, what are your thoughts on. [00:05:38] Speaker A: That and that sermon I heard. Sorry, just in that sermon. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Was one of the ones that was brought up was this song. Yeah, Jack. [00:05:43] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:05:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Because the other thing is, how precious did that grace appear? When it says it appeared, it doesn't mean like you're saying, like, before you're. You're saved. Grace appears to be pretty precious. Like, that's why you get saved is a. It does. And so somebody might sing it with the thought that, okay, the minute I agree that Jesus is Lord, that I'm saved, somebody might sing it totally differently. As through our understanding, the way that we understand the plan of salvation, neither one would be, like, contradicting or unable to fit inside the words that are actually there. So now you say whatever you want. I mean, like, that's. It's flexible, I guess, in that way. So, yeah, it could Mean something we disagree with. It could mean something we agree with. So nitpick. [00:06:24] Speaker A: This is my poetic license point. Like, okay, you're taking it way a little too literally. I agree not to go 3 for 3 here, but pretty nitpicky, in my opinion. I don't want to add on what y'all said. I can go first on the next one. Since I went last year. Just. Just a little talk with Jesus. Not sung, obviously, near as much as Amazing Grace, but not sung. A tongue, not sung a ton, I should say. I'm gonna go with legitimate gripe on this one. Not nitpick. I do have a legitimate gripe with this one, so I'll just read the first verse. I once was lost in sin But Jesus took me in and then a little light from heaven filled my soul it bathed my heart in love and wrote my name above and just a little. Just a little talk with Jesus made me whole. You know, again, like, there's going to be some that say, okay, that's just super nitpicky. I mean, the verse starts out saying you were lost in sin, and then a talk with Jesus made you whole. Scripturally, that's just not how that. Just. Just not how that works. Seems pretty shallow, doctrinally speaking. The one thing I will say, I was. I vividly remember this. I think I was 17, visiting a church with close friend, his family, and they sang this song. And this was back when I was not very observant, didn't even know that this song was controversial. And the. The gentleman who we were with raised his hand, and it was like a kind of an open discussion type classish thing that they were singing. He just asked them, you know, did they think this song. This song is theological. Theologically sound. And when he didn't like their answer, we got up and left. And I remember going like, is it that big? So I said, say, like, I don't think I'm gonna get up and leave if they sing this song, but I will go with legitimate gripe on this one. Jack, I'll. I guess we'll let you go next. What do you. What do you think? [00:08:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I could see why. Why somebody would have the legitimate gripe there. I don't like this one. It's. It's incredibly folksy. I don't like, like, really casual church songs. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Casual. [00:08:16] Speaker C: Yeah. And. And obviously it's been covered by a bunch of bluegrass bands, and it's one of those that, like, singers that are on their fourth and fifth divorce will get up and Sing it to the crowd. And you're like, okay, hang on now. Like, you know, unrepentant lifestyle kind of people. But it's just catchy. And so people like it. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Like. [00:08:32] Speaker C: And so I. That's more my gripe. I get what you're saying about the. The possible sinner's prayer illusion. [00:08:37] Speaker A: To me, this one's way more clear of a sinner's prayer illusion than the Amazing Grace. [00:08:41] Speaker C: Yes, it is. It is. So, yeah, I mean, like, it doesn't bother me when we sing it. So I. I guess that puts me in nitpick, but I. I see the issues with it, Joe. [00:08:51] Speaker B: I used to think it was just. Well, you're just having a prayer, you know, just a little prayer. And if we pray with Jesus, little talk with Jesus and make it right, then you read the lyrics. It's like, this is messed up. This is a. This is sinner's prayer. So, yeah, I have. It's a legitimate gripe. I'm with Will on this one. I do not sing this one. Personally, I think it's a. Once again, am I going to storm out of the church like Will said? [00:09:12] Speaker C: No. [00:09:12] Speaker B: On the other hand, have a little. [00:09:14] Speaker C: Talk with a song leader. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Before I have a little talk with Jesus, I guess. Yeah. But I think this is a strong illusion to one of the stronger allusions to the sinner's prayer. Like, hey, just a little talk with Jesus made everything right. You know, my. My heart was lost in sin and I had this little talk like, how is that not talking about the sinner's prayer? [00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:33] Speaker B: So to me, this is one of the bigger gripes that I would have on this list as well. So. Not a fan of this one. [00:09:39] Speaker C: It's funny that a lot of folksy thing. [00:09:40] Speaker B: It's just goofy. [00:09:41] Speaker C: A lot of these come, like, within broad Christendom. Anybody can write a song. And you just see all these doctrinal overlaps. Like, I'm sure there's things in our songbooks written by songwriters in the churches of Christ that, you know, the Baptist or the Presbyterian would pick up and be like, you guys sing this. Like, you think this is bad. This is what happens at baptism. Like, yes, and here's the scriptures, why we believe that. But, you know, we kind of have that going in our direction, too. [00:10:08] Speaker B: All right, number three here. Number three, when we all get to heaven. There has been a nitpick, I believe, Will, you were telling the story of visiting a congregation where there was. This song was blacked out, I believe, because. Or X'd out of the book type of thing because of the all word. Do we all get to heaven when we all get to heaven? Can we sing that when we all get to heaven? I'm gonna go nitpick, man across the board. [00:10:36] Speaker A: Out of the way. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Say nitpick. If somebody's going to say this is legitimate grip. Well, how do we know everybody singing the song, Lord willing, yes. Is is headed to heaven. And if you're not, hopefully you're well on your way. And it is implied in the song. We're talking about Christians getting to heaven. Just a little implication here. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Can I just say, because I 100% agree if you're the type of person that has a problem with this song because of that, you're the reason people don't like the church of Christ. I'm not trying to be. Be a jerk, but you, like, you are the reason that people don't like the church of Christ. If you're sitting here going, well, actually, you know, not all of us are going, like, to Joe's point, you're singing in a. In a Sunday morning service with your church family. Is every single one of them going to be in heaven? You know what? I'm not to say. So I'm going to choose to sing. When we all get to, like, what would the alternative be when some of us get to heaven? Like, no, we're not going to sing that. So I don't. I. That would just be my rant is like, listen, if you have a serious problem with this and you're going to stamp do not use in songbook. You're the problem here, Jack. [00:11:39] Speaker B: What do you. When we all get to heaven except you, Janice. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:11:43] Speaker B: You're not making it. [00:11:46] Speaker C: Well, I was just looking at it. Like, is there anything in the song that would lead somebody to believe that? No, it is very clear about, like, faithful Christians are going to have the victory. Like, let us then be true and faithful. I. Man, this is a major. This is the worst one on the list so far. [00:12:00] Speaker A: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. [00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a bad one. That's a bad one. All right, number four, the old rugged cross. Is this worshiping the cross? I don't know whose turn it is to go first. Will. [00:12:11] Speaker A: I think it's Jack. [00:12:12] Speaker C: I've known multiple people that, like, will not sing this song because it's like, it's not about the cross. It's about Jesus. It's not about it as like this icon, as, like, we don't worship. We don't collect memorabilia and historic things like that. And the old rugged cross. I. I don't know. There's that concept of what is of. Well, it's just symbolism. Number one. Like the cross symbolizes the death, the path of the death, the, you know, everything that he embodied. But I don't know. [00:12:46] Speaker B: Do you have the lyrics to this song? Would you mind reading through it? [00:12:51] Speaker A: So I'll. I'll go ahead and state my position. Jax. Jack sounds. He's a little on the fence here. A little. Jack's very rarely wishy washy on anything. But this, this. This one is not sure. So I. I do have a legitimate gripe with this song. Same qualifier. I'm not going to stand up and leave. Like, I don't think it's the end of the world, but just some of the ways that they describe. So I'll just kind of go through it. On a hill far away so an old rugged cross the emblem of suffering and shame and I love that old cross. Second verse. So I'll. Or the chorus. So I'll cherish the old rugged cross I will cling to the old rugged cross oh, that old rugged cross Has a wondrous attraction for me in that old rugged cross A wondrous beauty I see to the old rugged cross I will ever be true. That's the biggest problematic line to me. Like, sorry, we're not gonna stay true to the cross. [00:13:41] Speaker C: Basically. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like, to me, the song is just about the cross, not about Jesus. Like you could make the argument like, the song mentions Jesus twice by my. Maybe three times. If you want to be a little liberal with it. And it just. It's. It's about the cross. It's clinging. And I guess where I've always gone with it is like, I'm not clinging to the cross. I'm not cherishing the cross. I'm not doing any of those things. And I don't think that that's very. I don't think that I'm wrong in that based on what scripture teaches, we don't really see anything in there about the cross being a precious emblem or something like that. So, yeah, I'm out on this one. I would say legitimate gripe. It is a classic too, man. This is one of those that just you. You think church him and you think old rugged Cross. So not a. Probably a very popular take. I think one of our subscribers to the. The Deep End shout Out, David North. I think he had this take as well. But. Yeah. So, Joe, what do. What do you think I think you share the opinion here, but I'm just going to elaborate. [00:14:35] Speaker B: Legitimate, right? Yeah. For all the reasons that you're talking about. I do think it's more on the icon level, as though this is Catholicism, that we're really revering the cross. It's one thing to have a cross necklace. Okay. You know, I suppose. But it's another thing to just revere the cross and sing all about the cross and, you know, like, I understand what we're doing in drawing to the cross, but when you're start starting to talk about the wood or you're talking about the stand on that hill far away, and. And like, you're painting the scene of a. Of an empty cross. And we want to paint the scene of the empty tomb, not the empty cross. We want to paint the scene of, you know, of. Of the Savior on the cross. And so to me, I think those. I would rather sing of the empty tomb because that says something. But rather than just this cross that's blowing in the wind on a hill far away type of thing. Yeah. You know, some of its poetic license, but it's. It's the same concept to me. I think there needs to be more of the onus on Christ himself, personally. So. Yeah, I think this is more theologically inappropriate. [00:15:32] Speaker C: Okay. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Jack is looking skeptical. [00:15:34] Speaker C: I. I think Jack just wants to disagree. [00:15:36] Speaker A: Here we go. [00:15:36] Speaker C: Well, no, I was looking at it and like, I think the whole song just extrapolates Galatians 6:14. But may it never be that I would boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. And so it literally is about the cross, about it as an instrument of crucifixion. And. And so he's boasting. He says, I boast only in the cross of the Lord and because of all that it stands for, which is what the song is doing. So I think it goes a little far. I think it's taking one verse and turning it into hours. What, six verses that are in the hymn. And so, yes, I get where you're saying it's a stretch. I don't think it's wrong because Paul wrote. Use the same verbiage there. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Well, I would say it's a one for one. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:16] Speaker B: The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. Okay. Mentioned Christ once in the cross once. This song mentions the cross 681 times and mentions Christ 3. So to me, it's like, I understand what you say. Take up your cross and follow me. Like the cross is an ill. Is. Is a symbol. A symbol of death. Right? It's a symbol of death. [00:16:35] Speaker C: Nobody says, you know, I will boast in the. The cross. Like, that's. The song almost paraphrases that in a number of ways. [00:16:42] Speaker A: The song uses, like, worshipful language, though. It never comes out and says worship, but it's very cherished. [00:16:47] Speaker B: I would cherish the old Ryan cross. I don't know. Again, I'm not leaving the church for. [00:16:53] Speaker C: Singing it, but I get where you're going. But, I mean, I think there is a. There's biblical precedent for using the cross symbolically in this way is all I'm saying. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Fair enough. Fair enough. All right, I'll move us on to the next one. There's a stirring. This is a newer one. Newer, probably. It's definitely the newest song that we have on the list, which is interesting because there's. [00:17:15] Speaker C: That's where a lot of the. The theological questionable stuff is. But. [00:17:19] Speaker A: So this one, which is. [00:17:21] Speaker B: Don't get me started. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Oh, boy, here we go. [00:17:23] Speaker C: We're not doing that again. [00:17:24] Speaker A: 1980. 1989. So, you know, new ish. That's like, what, 35 years old? Something like that. No, more than that. That's. [00:17:32] Speaker C: That's a really young song. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. [00:17:35] Speaker A: That's right. This song predates Jack. No. So the problem at the alleged problematic stuff in here is about. So I'll just. It's not a very long song. There's a stirring deep within me could it be my time has come When I see my gracious savior Face to face when all is done Is that his voice I'm hearing? Come away, my precious one Is he calling me? Is he calling me? So fairly obvious, I would say, what a lot of people would have a problem with the idea that, you know, is that his voice I'm hearing there. Even the idea of there being a stirring from the Holy Spirit or from, you know, any one of the Godhead. Is he calling me? Kind of the idea that, you know, you hear a voice and so I don't know whose turn it is to go first. Who. Who wants to take it. What are your thoughts? [00:18:22] Speaker B: I honestly am not super familiar with that. [00:18:27] Speaker A: Essentially, it's a whole thing is kind of Right. What it comes down to. [00:18:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:34] Speaker C: I. [00:18:34] Speaker B: To me, a little bit of a nitpick. I think I'd be okay singing that again. I'm not. I'm looking at the lyrics at, like, the sound of voice I'm hearing. Is he calling. [00:18:42] Speaker C: That's What I'm like, is she singing about her, the. Whoever wrote it? Is it about your death? It kind of sounds like a little. [00:18:50] Speaker B: I'm a little confused, I guess. Yeah. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Because it could be my time to come. Yeah. When I see my gracious savior Face to face when all is done. Yeah. [00:18:58] Speaker C: So, okay. [00:18:59] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:19:01] Speaker C: I mean, I guess if you're gonna have a problem with this, you could also go and say, I'll be somewhere listening for my name. Like that. Maybe. I don't know. I. I'll call it. I don't like the song, but I'll call it a nitpick. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Sure. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I think. It's not like people don't like the idea of his voice calling. I also think nitpick. But yeah. This one was on several articles that came up online. [00:19:22] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:19:23] Speaker B: That's interesting. That's very interesting. [00:19:28] Speaker C: In depth, but easy to understand. That's how. War in heaven. War on earth. What the book of Revelation meant to the original readers and what it means for us today has been described. An Amazon reviewer said it was the best commentary on Revelation he had read in 50 years. Bradley Cobb spent literally thousands of hours researching and putting together this material, showing how first century Christians, the ones the book was written to, were, would have understood the book, how it matches with the rest of the Bible, and how it was something that was about to happen when John wrote it. Thoroughly biblical in his approach, including the dating of the book and supported with first century history, this 550 page book does not gloss over any details and includes points of application throughout each of the book's 48 studies. Great for personal study or for a year long Bible class. Available on Amazon.com in hardcover, paperback or Kindle. [00:20:17] Speaker B: All right, next one. He lives. And I don't know if. Will you have this one pulled up on the lyrics, but you asked me. [00:20:27] Speaker A: I'm doing it right now. [00:20:29] Speaker B: How I know he lives. He lives with her. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker B: He lives within my heart. Yes. So does he. [00:20:34] Speaker C: More of an apologetics? Well, not. That is more of an apologetics gripe of how do I know? Well, because of the feeling I have, like, okay, that's not a great way to explain it. And you know, there's a few of the lyrics that kind of indicate that, like, well, here's my proof, you know, like, because he's in. Within me. Like, yes and no. And you know, like, I. I know he lives because the open tomb and the testimony of the apostles and the scriptures and like, yeah, not just. And so I don't Know, I. You guys talk and I'll come to my conclusion. [00:21:08] Speaker A: I'll go for. I'll say nitpick. I saw this one come up a few times on in some articles and I was like, what. What is the problem with he lives? And I, I, you know, I get it based, you know, Jack, you're right. The idea that, well, you asked me how I know he lives. Well, he lives within my heart. Like, okay, well, that's not exactly a great way to, you know, prove to somebody that he lives. There's a lot better ways to do that. But I, I like the song. I don't, I don't think that's a very legitimate gripe. The, the purpose of singing songs is not to win an apologetics argument. Like, that's not the point of it. And so. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:40] Speaker A: I think, I mean, it's a joyful song. Even the first verse. I serve a risen savior. He's in the world today. I know that he living. Whatever men may say, like, it's just, it's an upbeat, very positive song about Christ living. So I am not opposed to this one at all. I think it's kind of a nitpick. Joe. [00:21:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I fall somewhere in the middle. I think I'm Jack. I'm where Jack was on the first or second one, where I can see both sides. I can see why that would be more of a, you know, him living in the heart, like the apologetics type thing. It seems a little squishy to say that, like, there's a million one reasons Jesus is alive and it's not because of that. But on the other hand, you're ready to make a give defense for the hope that lies within you. So I guess you could kind of make a. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Well, in Galatians 2:20, Christ lives in me. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, there you go. Christ lives in me. Like, there are passages that allude to it. So I get it that you would be defending. So maybe more of the nitpick on that end. But I could also. This has more of a legitimate case than the other ones, but I'm still going to call it a nitpick. Some of these other ones are so dumb. And some of these are real serious, you know, in my opinion. And this one's kind of down the line of, like, I see both sides. I'm going to lean more to the nitpick side and say I'm not going to have a problem. A problem singing this one. Personally. [00:22:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say the same. It's nitpick, but, like, where it's wrong, but it's not, like, dangerously wrong. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Sure. [00:23:01] Speaker B: That's a good way of putting it. That's a good way of putting it. Like, the dangerously wrong side. Like, I genuinely do feel having a little talk with Jesus is dangerously wrong. Like, I. [00:23:08] Speaker A: Legitimately. [00:23:09] Speaker C: That's true. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Because you are. It's false gospel. Right. That's. That's a false way of coming to salvation. Whereas this one. [00:23:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, sure. Correct. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Let's go to the next one. Mansion over the Hilltop. Another favorite. Man, everybody loves this song. It's another happy song. [00:23:29] Speaker C: Not everybody loves it, because I know some people who hate it. [00:23:32] Speaker B: That's why it's on the list. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, sorry. I say, you're right. [00:23:35] Speaker B: It's very popular, but you're right, they're very pop. Very popular. [00:23:39] Speaker C: Grantly. Elvis covered it. Like, it's that popular. So. [00:23:42] Speaker A: So I'll read the lyrics and then. Jack, I'm making you go first on this one. Sure. I'm satisfied with just a cottage below A little silver and a little gold but in that city where the ransom will shine I want a gold one that silver line, you know, Everybody knows Of course I got a mansion just over the hilltop we'll walk the streets through purest gold Very wealth focused I suppose I'll save my take. Jack, what are your thoughts on this one? Nitpick or legitimate complaint? [00:24:05] Speaker C: Well, I think one of the reasons for the complaint is it starts in John 14 of, you know, in my father's house are many dwelling places. I'm saying, are many mansions. And so it's like, oh, cool, that's, you know, that's what Jesus is promising us. There is the big mansion. It's like. Yeah, hang on. That's. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Well, yeah, because it contrasts the cottage versus the mansion. It's like, that's not the point. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:24:25] Speaker C: You're very much missing the point. And, you know, the father's. The father's house are many mansions. Even that phrasing is a little weird. So. Yeah. I mean, I. It's not my favorite church song. I think there's a little bit of legitimacy to this gripe. It's. It's pretty materialistic, I guess, about heaven. [00:24:42] Speaker A: I agree. Very much so. [00:24:43] Speaker B: I agree. [00:24:44] Speaker C: And, like, you can look forward to heaven. I'll just add this caveat. You can look forward to heaven. I mean, look at the. There's a reason it describes it as streets of gold and all the gemstones. Like, there's a beauty to it that we want to behold, but. Sorry, go ahead. [00:24:56] Speaker A: There's also an element. And correct me if I'm wrong on this. I. I'm a full believer in Christian assurance and being confident of our salvation. Is there not a little bit of, like, okay, pipe down a little bit when you say, I've got a mansion over the hilltop. Like, you're going to be happy with whatever God gives you. So maybe don't just. Maybe, maybe don't just assume that you're gonna get. Yeah, this. This beautiful mansion, these streets of gold. Like, how about you just pipe down and be content with whatever God gives you? I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, there's just a little bit of that. That kind of comes through of, like, the unabashed confidence that you're gonna just get this mansion. Like, I don't. I don't love that. [00:25:32] Speaker B: So the one of the guys that I know that really hated it actually made the point, and I. He's off the reservation, man. He's like, I don't know that I would be satisfied with just cottage below a little silver, little bowl. Like, you know, when I. When I get to heaven type of thing. Like, we're going to get the very best. And like, this kind of a point, I guess I don't understand why that would be. A side of the nitpick is not knowing whether you're going to be satisfied or not. Like, I think we're going to be satisfied if we had nothing and it was white light, but we were with Jesus. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:59] Speaker B: That's my point exactly. So, like you said, pump the brakes a little bit. Let's slow down on that one. It is more on the materialistic end. I don't think that it points to the best parts of heaven. Like, I know in the lyrics you could, but the. The main point of the lyric is. Or the lyrics themselves are materialistic. And so, yeah, I'm going to get this massive mansion. Well, it's really what you want to be telling your kids. [00:26:24] Speaker C: We talked about this in the old Rugged Cross one about how much Jesus is mentioned. God, he's not in this one. Like, it's all about. [00:26:31] Speaker B: I was thinking there was a point about. I don't have a book with me, so I was trying to remember. [00:26:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going through it here. It's all about what. [00:26:40] Speaker B: So, yeah, this is absolutely egregious. This is more than a nitpick. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna safely go into the other category and say, no, you know, you have a song about heaven and fail to mention the Fact that we're going to be with God. [00:26:52] Speaker A: The very reason you're going to be in heaven. Yeah, Sorry. All right, three more. Jack, you want to introduce the next one? [00:26:57] Speaker C: Yeah. No tears in heaven. Some people will even correct this from the pulpit before they. They lead the song or whatever. Loved ones be dearer or. Versus saved ones be dearer. One is talking about, you know, kind of the things we'll experience in heaven. But loved ones, they substitute that because not all of our loved ones will be saved, sadly. I mean, it's just a reality of life. Saved ones, we know these are the people who are going to be there. And so this kind of goes back to the. I guess not to tip my hand, but the. When we all get to heaven. It's similar concept here. So. Go ahead, Will. [00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say, like, the. It was written, loved ones be dear and like the paperless hymnal and. And some other people just correct it to say saved ones. Yeah, nitpick. I'm in the nitpick camp on this one. It's the similar. It's similar to when we all get to heaven, in my opinion. [00:27:47] Speaker B: But where I would say it's wrong is I think there will be tears in heaven. Revelation 21:4 says, he will wipe away every tear. Not that we will not have any tears. So I don't think. [00:27:56] Speaker A: But when he wipes them away, where they're gonna. Like, they're not gonna be there. So, I mean, I think it's difficult. [00:27:59] Speaker B: But my point is no sorrows given. Look, I have a tough time thinking we're gonna enter in. Christ knew what was going on on Earth. We're gonna get there, and we're gonna look around and go, so and so didn't make it. I have a tough time thinking that there's not going to be some level of sorrow and sadness from a theological perspective. I really have a difficult time being like, well, you know, all these. All these husbands. Well, my wife. My wife didn't make it. Okay, well, is what it is. At least I got there. Like, I think there's going to be a level of sorrow, at least initially, and God will wipe every tear. [00:28:29] Speaker C: I think it's. I think it's talking about on the other side of that, but. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah, right, right. But I guess, like the. No tears in heaven, no sorrows given. Right. All will be glory in that land. [00:28:39] Speaker C: Says, when we shall join that happy band. We don't have bands. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Oh, that's true. [00:28:44] Speaker C: That's true. [00:28:45] Speaker B: This egregious. This is Egregious. This is not a nitpick. [00:28:48] Speaker C: Rip it out of the book. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Well, hey, maybe they meant choir or. Well, even that. [00:28:54] Speaker A: We don't do that. [00:28:55] Speaker C: Anyone now? [00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Even with the choir. So, yeah, I was gonna say even without instruments, that'd be a goofy looking band, but there you go. No. So, yeah, I nitpick still. Probably a nitpick. [00:29:07] Speaker C: Nitpick for me. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Okay, we're down to two left. I stand amazed. He had no. So there's the, the phrase here. He had no tears for his own. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Griefs, but sweat, drops of blood for mine. Is how it. [00:29:20] Speaker B: There you go. I was trying to remember how it finishes. Yeah. So he. The question is, did he have any tears for his own griefs or is that. I'm going to go ahead and just get on the record and say another nitpick. We don't. Okay. He had no tears. Poetic license here. The whole point is he wasn't concerned about himself, he was concerned about everybody else. You know, he didn't take time and pity himself for everything he had to go through. That to me is kind of. That he had no tears for his own griefs. He just willingly went to the cross. A nitpick for me, but what do you guys think? [00:29:51] Speaker C: So. [00:29:51] Speaker A: So I think. I think it's wrong. Like, I don't think that's correct. Just try. First of all, it's assuming that we know what he was, you know, the, the, you know, crying for the sweat drops of blood in the garden. Like, oh, we know for sure that that was. No, we don't. Like, we can speculate. But even if, you know, I, I do think I'm a firm believer that when Jesus was praying in the garden, he was. Yes. You know, praying about, you know, concerned about the sins that he was going to take on for the world, but he was also concerned about being separated from God. And like, there. It's not. I don't think it's true to say he had no tears for his own grease, but just sweat, drops of blood for mine. Like, I don't think that's true. However, I'll still sing it. So I guess. I guess that puts me in the nitpick. This is the one that I guess I'll kind of come down in the middle on. Like, I don't think that line is correct whatsoever. But I like the song. I'm not gonna be too nitpicky about it. Jack, what do you think? [00:30:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Now that we're reaching the end of the list, it's apparent we should have had three categories of like, nitpick. Yeah. Versus somewhat legitimate. Versus don't sing it. And I think this is in the somewhat legitimate. You know, now that I'm creating a third category. Like, I, I agree with everything Will said there, but I still really like the song. It's, you know, great chorus and all that. So. Yeah. In fact, when we get to the end of this, we got one more and then I'm gonna flip it around for just a second on you guys. The. The one. We have. No, we have two left. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord, for loving me. The second verse says in most songbooks, please reveal your will for me so I can serve you for eternity. [00:31:19] Speaker B: You've revealed is what it mostly says. [00:31:22] Speaker C: Please. What people have changed, you've revealed because they don't think we're waiting on a message from God. It's. He revealed it to us in his. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Word, so ours were changed. Sorry. That's why. [00:31:33] Speaker C: Well, yeah, that's the change has the originals. Please reveal your will for me. The new that people change it to is you've revealed. Is that a nitpick or is that a legitimate complaint or bad enough? [00:31:46] Speaker A: That's so nitpicky. That is the most nitpicky that might be. Well, what. What did you say was the worst one? Oh, when we all get to heaven. Yeah, this one's probably second worst. I don't, I don't see a problem with this one at all. [00:31:55] Speaker B: The person who did this, the person who did this back in Miller street, love him to death. He may, he may listen. I don't know. I think his wife may listen. Love to death. Great brothers and sisters. He is adamant, like, hey, God's already revealed his will. I understand that. On the other hand, massive nitpick in my opinion, because there's a level of like, I still want God to reveal, reveal his will. His day to day will. Like, I want God. What is your will in terms of me moving here or not or me taking this job or not? I think we can pray for God. [00:32:24] Speaker A: To reveal he hasn't necessarily already revealed that in his word. Right? Yeah. [00:32:27] Speaker B: Correct. Correct. [00:32:29] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, then they would get into, how directly is it confirmed that it's God's revealed will that you take that job? How do you know? Kind of thing. I, I think that's kind of what you're asking is guide my steps. And so I would call it a nitpick as well. One of the youth ministers growing up, similar thing, you know, very much made sure in The Devo song, you know, in church or in class or whatever, we'd sing it that way. And it was always kind of like, I'm okay either way. [00:32:57] Speaker B: Here's one that wasn't on the list that, that I've heard, but this one came to mind because I think he also had an issue with this one. Okay. Or maybe he didn't. I know my mom has an issue with this. So, Father, we love you. We worship and adore you. Jesus, we love you. Worship and or Spirit, we love you. We worship and adore you. What are your thoughts on glorify your name? Is that okay? I was thinking I was glorify your name. I didn't want misspeak. Okay. So. And glorify your name. Should we be singing that to the Spirit? To the Holy Spirit? Some people have a struggle with do we worship and adore and sing? [00:33:28] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:33:28] Speaker B: I believe, I believe it's my mom that, that has always questioned. [00:33:31] Speaker C: I know multiple people. Yeah, she's one of them. Yeah. [00:33:34] Speaker A: So, yeah. [00:33:35] Speaker B: What are your thoughts? Nitpick. Legitimate. [00:33:38] Speaker A: To me, the Spirit is part of the Godhead, so I'm, I don't have a problem with it whatsoever. [00:33:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Trinitarian wise, I don't think it's, I don't think there's reason to say worship two out of three. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:51] Speaker A: And again, what's the alternative? Like, don't worship the spirit. Like, you know what's right. I guess what's the big deal is what kind of comes to mind for me. [00:33:58] Speaker B: I think they look at it as the Father receives worship. You know, Jesus worships the Father, Everything. The glory goes to the Father. Do we glorify the Spirit the same way we glorify the Father? Because when it talks about like Philippians 2, 11, and everything was the glory of God, well, it's specifically talking about the Father in that situation. Jesus did everything for the glory of God. Do we glorify Jesus and do we glorify the Spirit the same way we glorify God the Father? Since everything was done to the Father's glory? That is more the theological. And I, I, I kind of get it. I'm with you in the fact that, look, all three are members of Godhead the Trinity, so I don't have a problem worshiping any of them. But the glory is the glory intended to go to all three of them or just this is. [00:34:40] Speaker A: This is reminiscent of the should you pray to Jesus debate. [00:34:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it was like 10 years ago. [00:34:45] Speaker B: That's a good point. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Also seems nitpicky. But anyway, Jack, you had something. Before we get to the next section of our. [00:34:52] Speaker C: Oh, there's one more song that it's not. It's not so much a song. It's kind of like these present two. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Competing dichotomy kind of. Yeah. [00:34:59] Speaker C: And so it's like, which one? This world is not my home. I'm just a passing through versus this is my father's world. And the one is very much glorifying, like, hey, this world is cool. God created it for us and it's his gift to us and we enjoy it and we glorify him because of it. And then the other is, you know, just passing through my treasures laid up the other beyond the blue. All of those things about, like, I just can't wait to get out of here. I think this is really an eschatological debate about what you think is going to happen. And like, are we just trying to get off of this ship before it all burns or are we appreciative of the world and think it's going to stick around for a while? So I. I think generally it comes down to that. But what do you guys. [00:35:44] Speaker B: So let me ask you this. Which. Which do you choose? [00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah, which one? [00:35:47] Speaker B: If you had to. If you had to choose one and you were. I think both make a legitimate point. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Jackson. This is my father's world guy. [00:35:53] Speaker C: I think it's way more theologically rich. Yeah. [00:35:57] Speaker A: So I was. So I was. We. We sang this World is Not My Home tonight, actually, and I'd already seen our outline and so I was cool. You know, of course I know that song super well. I'm not trying to, like, cop out here. I think both are incredibly legitimate and they just take two completely different angles of the. As Jack kind of spoke to, like, the way you view the world, like, obviously, this is my father's world. There's. There's nothing that's. That's theologically wrong with that. It's talking about the creation, all these amazing things. But even like, this world is not my home. If you listen to the lyrics, this world is not my home. I'm just a passing through, my treasure laid up somewhere beyond the blue. Like, there's not a lot that's like, okay, well, that's wrong. Or you could. I guess you could say maybe it's an exaggeration and it's putting the wrong emphasis. But I. I don't. While I of course agree with. With you guys and kind of Jack, your take of like, it's not all about heaven and we need to make sure that we are not just skipping past the important things of this world. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I don't think the song is wrong in and of itself to say, okay, but ultimately heaven is. Is the goal here. Ultimately, heaven is important. So I think both of them capture it really, really well. Not to just again, cop out and go right down the middle, but Joe, I'm kind of curious your thoughts on the dichotomy here. [00:37:16] Speaker B: I actually would agree with Jack on this one in that I think this is my father's world is more theologically rich. This world's on my home. Like, I was thinking through the other lyrics as well. It just has a heavy emphasis on like, man, we're just passing through. Just kind of like playing out the. [00:37:33] Speaker C: I can't feel at home in this world anymore. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. I can't feel at home in this world anymore. And to me it's like, yeah, but we are called to be on this earth. And I think we are called. We have certain reasons to be here. It's not just a punch our. I'm like, play out the clock type of thing, Punch our ticket and get to heaven. There are things to accomplish here. And I think the this is my father's world is more grounded in that. So to me, I lean more toward that one. I. I don't think it's wrong to focus on heaven, but I think the overemphasis on heaven and Christianity actually has done a lot of dam where it's like, we're just, hey, we're just passing through. We don't make a difference here. And so don't get involved politically. Don't get involved in any other thing in life because we're just passing through. We're just pilgrims. [00:38:12] Speaker C: Like, well, it's not like you're saying. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Yes, the most problematic line to me is that I just can't feel at home in this world anymore. But I guess the diff. My difference would be like, I don't see it, the song overall as like an over emphasis on heaven. I think it's. I think it's an appropriate emphasis on. [00:38:30] Speaker C: I think that, yeah, I think the song is not as bad so much as knowing that gnostic emphasis really is strong. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Like, yeah, that's fair. [00:38:37] Speaker C: It's behind a lot of people's love. But I mean, Second Corinthians 5, 8. Paul says, I prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be home with the Lord. So, like, kind of similar to the lyrics. So I'll Give it that credit. But I. I still lean to this as my father's world. [00:38:51] Speaker A: So we've just outside with Paul on that one. [00:38:56] Speaker C: Okay. I went with him on the Old Rugged Cross, you guys. [00:38:58] Speaker A: There you go. That's right. [00:38:59] Speaker C: Fair enough. All right. We just went through about a dozen songs. We mentioned the. Or. I mentioned splitting it into three. So let's go back through. You guys got the list in front of you. Are there any that you're like, I would prefer we not sing this. I know there's a lot of them were like, yeah, that's fine. Or that's a real nitpick. I don't care. [00:39:16] Speaker A: But, like, just a little talk with Jesus. The Old Rugged Cross. And honestly, that's. I don't like Mansion over the Hilltop. So I was gonna say that one in there. I might take that one out, sing the rest. [00:39:31] Speaker B: I think I'm with Will. I would take Mansions over the Hilltop out. I. I don't like the song in general. I know that's, like, a fan favorite for a lot of people. [00:39:38] Speaker A: But, Jack, you pointing out that it doesn't mention God is like, okay, yeah. [00:39:41] Speaker C: I didn't realize that. [00:39:42] Speaker B: I thought it did. [00:39:42] Speaker C: I was looking at it, but, yeah. [00:39:44] Speaker B: I thought it did. [00:39:45] Speaker A: How about you, Jack? Which ones? Which ones would you not. You were way less, like, firm on some of the gripes as me and Joe were. [00:39:51] Speaker C: No, I get the. Just a little talk with Jesus just because. Yeah, I mean, like, the. The baggage on that is pretty heavy. And then you weren't as bad on. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Old Rugged Clothes already. Pride. [00:40:01] Speaker C: I keep that around. I'm fine with that. Mansion over the Hilltop. Yeah, I would. I ditch that one as well, so. [00:40:08] Speaker B: And you keep in. Please reveal your will for me. Both of you would keep that in? [00:40:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:16] Speaker C: And it doesn't. If, say. If somebody says you reveal. I don't. That doesn't bother me either. It's just. So I went back through that just to say, like, this is a fun exercise. That's a. Hey, we can do a little better course correct on some of these. And then sometimes there's legitimately wrong stuff. And so I. I don't want it to be. Look, you know, have people, like, man, next time we sing, you know, half of these songs, I'm gonna think of the. Think deeper guys telling me not to sing it. Like, no, that's not what we're saying. I mean, like, again, maybe encourage you guys to your elders. [00:40:47] Speaker A: I would encourage you guys. Let us know what y'all think, too. If Y'all think we're way off on some of these. Or if you maybe if you got one that comes to mind, you got more songs cover. We can definitely cover it in the Deep end if you're a deep thinker. But. [00:41:00] Speaker C: Hey folks, you've probably heard us talk about Focus plus and the Deep End. If you're wondering what that is. Focus plus is our subscription service available through Patreon. Every week members get all kinds of Christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, a sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the Deep End, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for Think Deeper listeners where you can submit your comments on an episode and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focus or go to focuspress.org/plus. [00:41:45] Speaker A: The next thing that I kind of wanted to bring up. We've hit on this before but with us being kind of a church song ish episode thought it'd be good to cover and that is the patriotic songs. When I googled kind of just looked up some articles like hey Problematic Theological Songs. It man. Every other article just mentioned the patriotic songs and just how how wrong those were. And you know I think they're not to give my full take here but so songs like Battle Hymn of the Republic, My Country Tis of Thee, God Bless America, America the Beautiful. You know again, patriotic songs that mention God have very Christian themes. You obviously have the anti Christian nationalist people that just think those songs are the spawn of Satan and that you know it's the word. Those are the worst possible things that we could sing is a song that mentions America and God in the same same song or same stanza. And then you have people that proudly have no problem singing these songs. Sing them on the, you know, July 4th type Sunday. Sing them, you know, don't have any problem singing them during worship. [00:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:46] Speaker A: I'm really curious your guys's kind of thoughts on this. For me I do think it kind of depends. I was trying to like look up some of the lyrics of of of a lot of these before we got on here just to see. I haven't we because we don't sing them a lot at Jackson Temple and even my previous congregations that I worshiped we did not sing them a lot. So I'M not very familiar to know if there's, like, major theological problems with them as far as, like, you know, songs that I don't think they're worshiping America. I think being able to, you know, celebrate and say, hey, we're proud Americans and we want God to bless this country. We're proud Christians. We're proud Americans. You know, let's, you know, kind of bring those two things together. I don't have a huge problem with that. I. I do understand why people get uncomfortable with them. I will say, Jack, I know you. You've talked a lot about this, probably more so than Joe or I have. What are your thoughts? [00:43:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it. Generally, I'm more uncomfortable with it. I. I come around a little more to, like, God Bless America, where it's saying, stand beside her and guide her. Like, God guide this country. Like that. That should be something. Christians in every country. [00:43:48] Speaker A: That's a good thing to sing. [00:43:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. Christians in every country should want that. Some of the other ones are just much more, hey, our country rocks. We really like it kind of thing. That's. I remember one of our songbooks had America the Beautiful in there, and I was like, that's a little strange. I mean, that's ours. [00:44:02] Speaker A: At Jackson Temple does. That's the one. I was reading the lyrics. Okay. [00:44:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I hadn't checked in the. With that one, but I will say the. [00:44:09] Speaker A: As much as the title is like, okay, Praising America, the song is similar to God Bless America. [00:44:13] Speaker B: It's. [00:44:14] Speaker A: It's, you know, God shed his grace on the God men thine every flaw. God shed his grace on me. Like, it is imploring God to bless the country. So. Yeah, I don't love the title there, but. [00:44:24] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. And my country tis of thee. I mean, it ends with Protect us by thy might Great God our king. That's pretty cool. But the song isn't really about him. And I think that's where, you know, in a worship service, it's kind of gets out of the way or, you know, out. But it's. It's kind of like God Give Us Christian Homes is not. It's a good hymn to sing. It's not necessarily a direct praise song. Whereas God Bless America is a similar thing. God guide our country. You know, if. If you're okay with one. I don't know. There's generally. I'm going to stay away from those, Joe. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say in worship services, but I still want my kids to learn them and to know them and to sing them maybe during times devos around the fire. And we're all proud Americans. I think it's okay to be singing songs about America, especially when there is a God bent to them. Do I think it's time in the middle of a worship service? No. No, I don't. But I think there's a lot of songs that don't belong in a worship service, personally. Songs like Angry Words. I don't really like Angry Words in a worship service. Like, we're. Okay, cool. It's good to sing. It's good to know about. With one another. And hey, don't let those. Don't let it from the tongue. Unbridled slip. That's great. Yeah, right. Has nothing to do with that. So. But you could go down the rabbit hole on that because there's plenty that are just addressed to one another that we can sing back and forth and encourage one another. And maybe that's considered one of those. The America one. No, I'm not a huge fan of it, but again, I want to make sure my kids know how to sing them that. So that means that implies we're singing them at some point, maybe just not in worship. So maybe Wednesday night class, something like that. You know what I mean? [00:45:59] Speaker C: Battle Hymn of the Republic's a real weird one because it's. [00:46:02] Speaker A: It's got the line, though. The stanzas in there are very interesting. [00:46:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker C: The last verse a little bit. But like, it's mostly just we're marching out, off to battle thing. And I. I don't know. That one's. Yeah, I. There's just case by case, like we said, generally, more often than not. Probably pass. So we've got one last thing left, a little bit of fun to do here as we wrap up. We've done the blind ranking thing before, and that's where you have a list set aside for somebody and they don't know what's coming next. There's good, bad, and otherwise on there. And so we're going to read each other a list of hymns. I'm going to go to Screen Share, so if you're watching this on YouTube, that will help you quite a bit. So you can see the lists as they come out. [00:46:45] Speaker A: Nice. [00:46:45] Speaker C: Yeah, nice. Let's put Joe on the spot first. I'll go. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Oh, boy. [00:46:50] Speaker C: So you'll go last year. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Go figure. [00:46:53] Speaker C: I was. I giving it. I was giving to Joe. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Yeah. We. We need to say too, like this. This is gonna be. There's a lot of him. So this is gonna be difficult to rank these because you have no idea what's coming. [00:47:03] Speaker C: Right. You've got. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:47:04] Speaker B: We do not know these. Whatever. 10 they are. Yeah. That's rough. So I'm giving you yours. Will. Right? You're giving Jack. [00:47:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm giving Jack his. Yeah. [00:47:12] Speaker C: All right. So Joe, you're. You have 10 hymns. You have to rank blindly. First. Marching to Zion. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Oh, come we that Love the Lord 6. [00:47:27] Speaker C: 6. Marching to Zion. Let's see A beautiful life each day. I'll do. [00:47:35] Speaker A: That's a good one. It's funny. We're making Joe go first. The anti singing guy. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker B: I know. [00:47:49] Speaker C: How great thou Art. [00:47:53] Speaker B: I'm pretty high on that one. I'm gonna put that at number two. [00:48:00] Speaker C: Number two. How great thou art. All right. [00:48:03] Speaker B: I'm sure. Nothing like singing that with a loud church. That's really belting it. [00:48:07] Speaker C: It really is. [00:48:08] Speaker B: I know. Will's not a big fan. Isn't it? How great thou Art. You're not a big fan? [00:48:11] Speaker A: It's not my favorite. I think it's a very powerful song. I just don't love the tune of it. [00:48:15] Speaker B: But. [00:48:15] Speaker C: You know, I think I know where you're going with this one. Oh Happy day. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Good call. [00:48:21] Speaker B: Number 10. [00:48:23] Speaker C: All right. Yeah. I'm sure this is thrilling content for those listening in the car. But. Yeah. This is. Yeah. [00:48:28] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:48:28] Speaker B: Jack. I already put 10 on the outline. He knew where it's going. [00:48:31] Speaker C: It's a lot easier. [00:48:32] Speaker A: You're not a fan of oh Happy Day. I don't. I don't know the backstory on that one. [00:48:35] Speaker C: Oh. He's. I hate the way sometimes the way that we sing. Dragging. [00:48:39] Speaker A: Oh, that's fair. That's fair. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Like then. [00:48:42] Speaker C: Sound that happy. Does it? All right. Lord, I lift your name on high. [00:48:50] Speaker B: That's not a bad one. Five. [00:48:54] Speaker A: That's a 900 song. That's a 900. [00:48:57] Speaker C: I had to throw one in there for him. [00:48:59] Speaker B: I might actually flip. I won't. [00:49:01] Speaker C: You can't flip. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Too late. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Too late. I would have flipped A Beautiful Life with this one. But either way. 567. Somewhere in there. [00:49:07] Speaker C: Okay. Jesus loves me. Three brain. All right. [00:49:15] Speaker B: Three. Yeah, I know. It's. It's. It's. I'm a sucker, man. We sing this. This is my daughter's favorite song. The way she sings it. Yeah. Of course. The way she sings it every night is the best thing you've ever seen in your life. So. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Yes. [00:49:28] Speaker B: You got a soft spot for me. [00:49:29] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:49:30] Speaker C: Humble yourselves. [00:49:32] Speaker B: Oh, I love this one. I really don't want to use a song 4. I'm gonna have some brutal ones at 8. 9, I bet. [00:49:43] Speaker C: Farther along. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank goodness. Yeah, I'm not a big fan. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't like that one either. Good call, Joe. [00:49:49] Speaker C: I like it, but why does it have to use that word? Never molested, though. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Oh, yes, that's right. [00:49:57] Speaker B: That's the song. [00:49:58] Speaker C: Can we please update the songbook? Say like never Never Disturbed Never. Not a nitpick. [00:50:04] Speaker B: This is legitimate gripe. [00:50:07] Speaker C: I. I like the song other than that. But anyway. Oh, Sacred Head. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Oh man, I love one. [00:50:16] Speaker C: Or eight. [00:50:17] Speaker B: I know. And I don't want to give it number one because if you pull out like there's a few that I put. But that is a great one. [00:50:26] Speaker C: What's it gonna be? [00:50:28] Speaker B: I'm gonna put it as number one. [00:50:29] Speaker C: Wow, good call. Because I don't think you wanted Blessed Assurance to be number eight or number one. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Oh, goodness, no. Thank goodness. Yeah, that was a pretty solid. [00:50:36] Speaker A: That's a classic one too. [00:50:38] Speaker C: You pretty. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Well, hey, I know what I'm about. [00:50:43] Speaker C: What's up? [00:50:43] Speaker A: Well, you know what's funny? You didn't have a single song. I was. I thought for sure we'd have some duplicates. Not a single duplicate on the list that I wrote down for you. [00:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I was. I was wondering. So you like a beautiful life? Each day I'll do a golden deed. [00:50:56] Speaker A: I like that. Yeah. [00:50:57] Speaker C: See that one almost goes borderline to me of like. Yeah, this is a pretty works based here. You know, whatever. [00:51:03] Speaker B: I mean, that is true. [00:51:05] Speaker C: I mean it's good to be a nice person and all that, but Joe, what's your swap? [00:51:08] Speaker B: Honestly? [00:51:09] Speaker C: Like, honestly. [00:51:16] Speaker B: How great thou art. No Sacred Head. One and two. I would flip. [00:51:18] Speaker A: That's fair. [00:51:19] Speaker B: And that's it. I mean, I'm. I'm happy with it. Yeah. [00:51:21] Speaker C: All right, all right. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Me to Will or. Yeah, Will, Jack. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Okay, all right, all right. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Well, Here we go. 10,000 reasons. Where. Hey, just for everybody to know I am doing. Because Will and I. Oh yes, classically. [00:51:38] Speaker A: Very lively debate. [00:51:40] Speaker B: He is Mr. Nine Hundreds. We'll call him. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Okay, and go ahead, finish, finish. And then I'm gonna defend my position. [00:51:46] Speaker B: He loves, he loves the new songs. I'm more. I'm a classic guy. So every one of these, all 10 is I think, a new song. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Let's characterize this the right way though. I like the new songs. I defended Joe from saying if you sing new songs, you're a liberal heretic. That was what I defended. And you know, all of a sudden. Am I wrong guy? Yeah. All right. Anyway, 10,000 reasons. Oh, man, I do like that song. Man, this is so tough. I don't know what's coming next. Let's go six. [00:52:21] Speaker B: And Days of Elijah. [00:52:24] Speaker A: Oh, I don't love that one as quite as much. 8. [00:52:31] Speaker B: El Shaddai. [00:52:34] Speaker A: I do not know that song. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Okay, I'll. I'll pick a new one. [00:52:39] Speaker A: You have to pick another one. [00:52:40] Speaker B: Wow. I know one that you don't. That's crazy. Windsor sings a ton of these pierce my ears. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Well, I. Man, I don't know the problem with this one necessarily. I do like this song a lot. I'll say kind of right in the middle here. I'll go five. [00:53:05] Speaker B: Five. Okay. [00:53:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Light the Fire. [00:53:12] Speaker A: Not my favorite, man. This is a popular one. Seven feels a little low. Go for I. I can't. I can't. Yeah, go forward with this one. [00:53:24] Speaker C: I don't think you like these songs as much as you thought you did. [00:53:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. None of them are like. Man, I just love it. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Sanctuary. [00:53:34] Speaker A: Let's see. We're going to be. Sanctuary. That's a. That's a pretty good one. Ah, man, Joe, you're killing me here. Let's go with seven. Let's go seven on that one. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Oh, man. Shout hallelujah. I'll. I'll fit that in for el. Should I. [00:53:54] Speaker A: 9. I don't love that one either. [00:53:57] Speaker C: Oh, hell, I don't know that one. I know. Saying hallelujah to the Lord, so I go hallelujah. I go to churches where we just sing it. Not now. Where we shout. It's not. [00:54:06] Speaker A: Hallelujah is very repetitive. It's just kind of shah hallelujah over and over and over and over and over again. [00:54:10] Speaker C: And very descriptive. [00:54:11] Speaker A: All right, what's next? [00:54:12] Speaker B: As the deer. [00:54:13] Speaker A: I like as the deer. Let's go two. I like as the deer a lot. [00:54:19] Speaker B: All right. Ancient of Days. [00:54:25] Speaker A: I have sung that one, like, a handful of times. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Let's go 10, then I'll. Let's. Let's do a different one. Let's do it. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Let's do. I'm trying to think of new ones. [00:54:35] Speaker A: So I. I have one, three, and ten left. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Highly Exalted. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Oh, Highly Exalted is a great song. 3. Have you guys ever sang Highly Exalted? [00:54:49] Speaker C: I doubt it. Now what are we saving number one for? [00:54:53] Speaker A: I know. That's. That's the thing. Joe's gonna throw me a. Yeah, you guys, we need to sing Highly Exalted. That's a good one. Sorry, tangent. Go ahead. [00:54:59] Speaker B: I Should. The greatest commands. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Okay. It's not. It's not my favorite, but I gotta go, man. [00:55:05] Speaker C: And choose between. [00:55:07] Speaker A: It's gotta go one. I mean, it's. [00:55:09] Speaker B: That's. [00:55:10] Speaker A: It's a great song. Contrary to whatever Joe says, it's a great song. [00:55:13] Speaker B: Okay. And Created Me. [00:55:16] Speaker C: Well, that's a great one. [00:55:17] Speaker A: I like that one a lot. Great in me. I was trying to not. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Man, I don't know these super well, and I don't have one of the Debo ones in front of me. I know there's better ones. Do you know the. The song Oceans? Is it. [00:55:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:27] Speaker B: Ocean's called. Yeah. Where would you have ranked that one? Because it's gonna put that. And there's another one. [00:55:33] Speaker A: Really good. [00:55:34] Speaker B: I thought you liked. [00:55:35] Speaker A: I like Ocean. So probably four. Probably four or five. I. I'm happy with the list. [00:55:40] Speaker B: And then I'm like. I don't even know that he's. That. That's the name of the song. Maybe I'm thinking of a different one, so. [00:55:44] Speaker C: Okay. [00:55:44] Speaker A: That is good. I'm happy with that list. I would probably. [00:55:47] Speaker B: That you change. [00:55:48] Speaker A: I like Created Me better than some of the ones below it. So. Created Me and Sanctuary. I'd probably swap. [00:55:56] Speaker B: Really? I don't mind Sanctuary. [00:55:57] Speaker A: It's good. I like Sanctuary. It's just. [00:56:01] Speaker C: So I'm curious, Jack, how. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Jack, how many of those do you know? [00:56:05] Speaker C: Like seven of them. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:07] Speaker C: So my daughter is a big animal person. We're having our family Debo. And she said, can we sing that song we did in church the other day? Cassowary? Like, what? That's a bird. Cassowary. Like, Lord, prepare me. Like you. Sanctuary. [00:56:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:24] Speaker C: Yeah. That's not what he's preparing us for, but. All right, so will this list 1 through 10 for the audio. Well, for the audio, people, Will's list is greatest commands as the deer. Highly exalted. I don't know that one. Light the Fire. [00:56:35] Speaker A: You need to look that one up. [00:56:37] Speaker C: Pierce my ear. 10k. 10,000 reasons create in me Days of Elijah Shout hallelujah Sanctuary. Okay, so I know eight of those. That's good. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Good list, Joe. Good list. Okay. All right, Jack. Here we go. All right, man. All these. I like all these a lot. All right, here we go. A wonderful savior. [00:56:53] Speaker C: As a kid, that was my favorite. So I'm going to put it at like three. It's moved down the list a little. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Bit, but I did not know that. [00:56:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:00] Speaker A: All right. Standing on the promises. [00:57:04] Speaker C: That's a solid seven. [00:57:10] Speaker A: The Gloryland Way. [00:57:15] Speaker C: Not a big Fan number nine. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Interesting. All right. The Church of Christ anthem. You know what this one is? [00:57:21] Speaker C: Our God, he is alive. [00:57:23] Speaker A: Our God he is alive. [00:57:24] Speaker C: That's got to be at least number two. I don't know what I'm saying number one for, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep it open. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Jack's gonna get our greatest command. Or greatest commands is number one. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:35] Speaker B: He's gonna leave it. Be stuck with it. [00:57:38] Speaker A: When I survey the wondrous cross. [00:57:40] Speaker C: Oh, let's put that at four. Oh. Oh. Should I put that at one? [00:57:46] Speaker A: Five songs to go. [00:57:47] Speaker C: I know, but it might be the best one. [00:57:50] Speaker B: You're using all your top spots, man, and he's got a lot of good ones. [00:57:55] Speaker C: All right, going with four. [00:57:56] Speaker A: So you have 1, 1, 5, 6, 8, and 10. [00:57:59] Speaker C: Yep. Soldiers of Christ, arise it's a solid eight. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus. [00:58:11] Speaker C: That'S a good song. [00:58:14] Speaker A: Feels like a 5 or a 6 to me. [00:58:17] Speaker B: Yep. [00:58:19] Speaker A: So we have 1, 5 and 10. Have thine own way. [00:58:31] Speaker C: 10. It's fine. [00:58:33] Speaker A: That one. That one's slow. That one's pretty slow. I know. That My Redeemer lives. [00:58:39] Speaker C: That's a good one. See, I. [00:58:41] Speaker B: You. [00:58:42] Speaker C: I should not have let you talk me out of putting When I Survey up. Okay, I'm gonna put it at 5. [00:58:47] Speaker A: I hope the last one. The greatest. No, I'm just kidding. The Lily of the Valley. [00:58:53] Speaker C: Oh, my kids love that. So that's fine at the top, but it's not number one at all. Goodness. [00:58:57] Speaker B: Which would you like? [00:58:59] Speaker A: I thought. [00:59:02] Speaker C: When I Survey and Lily of the Valley is the obvious swap there. [00:59:05] Speaker A: When I Survey is a great one. [00:59:07] Speaker C: That's a great one. Yeah. So I think. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Hallelujah. What a Savior's my favorite. Favorite. Go to. [00:59:14] Speaker C: Really? [00:59:14] Speaker B: Man. When I Survey and oh, Sacred Head are both fantastic. Preparing Lord's Supper. [00:59:20] Speaker C: Yeah, man. All right, so my list. When I survey the wondrous cross Our God, he is alive A wonderful Savior Lily of the valley I know my redeemer lives Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus Standing on the promises Soldiers of Christ Arise the glory land way and have thine own way so, yeah. [00:59:36] Speaker A: No, that's a good list. [00:59:37] Speaker C: I think we all did pretty solid. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Not a bad list. [00:59:39] Speaker C: None of us came in with any, like, Grenades, any. Any songs that we hate or anything like that. So, you know, that would have made it a little more interesting, but I can't think of any, like, really. Oh, I should have put Little Talk with Jesus in here. [00:59:54] Speaker A: That would have been good. Yeah, same. Same thing. I would say comment. Let us know where we got the rankings wrong. What, what thoughts you have. Guys. This was, this has been a fun one. I always enjoy talking about, about church songs and to Joe's point at the start of the episode, you know, some heavy stuff lately. Time for a little bit of a, of a lighter episode. So we'll be back on Friday for the Deep End. Guys. Any, any announcements that we need to share or anything we want to cover before we wrap it up? [01:00:20] Speaker C: Yeah, the Volume two of the Closer Walk With Thee. Speaking of great hymns, Closer walk with the DeVos that Joe and I do, volume one has been out for a little while. Volume two is now out. So if you got volume one, pick up the second one to keep going. If you didn't get either of them, pick them both up. They're. They're both on Amazon. They'll both be on FocusPress.org pretty soon, but grab them on Amazon today. Yeah, they're. They're available and I guess that's the, the only plug we have this week. We'll be talking to you guys again soon. [01:00:48] Speaker A: Thank.