What is the Church?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Joe Wilkie and Will Harab as always. Almost as always, they're usually here getting towards the end of the year. We're very much looking forward to Christmas and the new year holiday. But before we get to that, in fact we were talking about doing some kind of year end recap and episodes like that over the holidays. But we've got a, a bit of a usual, a full episode for you this week, really asking the question, what is the church? You know, a few years ago, Matt Walsh had the documentary what is a Woman? Kind of going over the controversy of transgenderism and things like that. That kind of spun off into on online people kind of having the debate what is an American and immigration and things like that. And so kind of in the vein of that, I wanted to have the discussion what is the church? And, and that seems like a really easy answer the people, but kind of there's different ways we can go with that. And we're going to explore the idea here in this episode of what is the church? Because it's a little more complex than we think and how much of it is institution, how much of it is people, how much of it is, I don't know, it's kind of all over the map as to how we get there. And using the Catholic Church as the extreme end, the community church is the other. We're going to explore this a little bit. So before I give away too much of the conversation, I want to see if you guys have any introductory thoughts. [00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah. There's so much, I don't know, Church of Christ influence in even the way that I speak, the kind of, the words that I choose to use surrounding this because like growing up, you know, you know, I'd have parents, my parents would say, you know, don't say that we're going to church. You know, they wouldn't like get upset with me, but they would correct me from saying go to church to like we're going to go to worship service or something like that to try to get me out of the mindset that the church is the building. Right. You have things like, you know, even, even I catch myself now saying things like, you know, different congregations as opposed to different churches. Right. Why is that? Well, it's because we really want to not give the impression that there are multiple churches. Right. That's denominationalism, that there is one true church. It's a very church of Christ kind of focus. Right. An emphasis that we, and of course, I do believe that there's one church. But you know, the New Testament has churches in the plural. Right. And so, but like my brain, I've trained myself to not say churches, I say congregations. Right. And so, yeah, I guess those are the only introductory thoughts that I have is that obviously that's just kind of like the wording and the everyday things that you, the way that you say it in everyday life, some of the stuff we're gonna get into is obviously, you know, a lot, a lot more gravity to it than that. But that's just kind of my introductory thoughts on kind of how this plays into the everyday life and kind of the vernacular that we use, I suppose. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about it from, you know, we use this term, the church. The church. [00:03:00] Speaker B: The church. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Right. And it can be really, it can mean so many different things to different people. Whether it is more of the corporate sense or it is more of the community. It's just a community. It's. It's a gathering of people. You know, you kind of had like the emergent church movement or whatever where it's just a very free flowing concept. Or you have, Jack, as you talked about the high church, the Catholicism, where there's. The church itself is larger than life. Like the church itself is not just the people, there's the church. The church is the one that gives the doctrine. I remember speaking with somebody who's in the Orthodox church and he was talking about how the church is the one that establishes authority. And so we would agree in certain areas, but not in the way that they're using the word church and the way that we might define what the church is. And so that's why I think this matters, Jack, and you bringing this, bringing this up and having this creating a great outline, it's because, yeah, we can throw these words out willy nilly, but it is important for us to be able to define. Okay, what do you mean when you say the church? Because. And I guess it just kicks us off. Jack, I'll throw it back to you. I'm curious, like you'll hear the phrase, we don't go to church. We are the church. We are the church. Which is an attempt to better understand what the church is. We'll talk to the kids about things like that. Or it's not, you know, and I guess we can split this up. But the idea of like it's not an organization, it's an organism. We have these different phrases or sayings that we kind of use to better understand what the concept is itself. Whereas you might have, like, the Catholic Church that says, yeah, it's an organization, or they might not use that word, but they might treat it as such. Curious to get your thoughts on that. Specifically, the. You know, we are the church. We don't go to church. We are the church. What are your thoughts on that? [00:04:37] Speaker B: Are you guys familiar with the Ship of Theseus illustration? [00:04:41] Speaker C: I am not. Enlightening. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Okay, so it's kind of a logic thing of you've got this ship and it comes in and, okay, it needs a board replaced. So they replaced that board. Well, over time, you replace this board. You, this board. This board, this board. And over the course of years, every board on the ship has been replaced, and we're still calling it the ship of Theseus. It's still the same ship, but is it the same ship? Right. Like, all of the elements are different, but it's like, are we even looking at the same ship here? It's brand new. It's been updated piece by piece. That kind of is similar to this idea of the church. Well, we are the church. Well, no, the church I attend existed before I got there, Lord willing, will exist after I've been there, after I'm dead. And the church itself, the church in general, the worldwide church, of course, exists over and above all of us. It's a thing that exists without us. And then there's also the leadership hierarchy thing. Like, there are some people who are more integral to the existence of that church. You know, Paul in Ephesians 4, talking about some given as apostles and prophets and teachers and evangelists and shepherds and all of those roles that were given there for equipping the saints and building up the body and all of those things they're supposed to do. But, you know, it just kind of gives that question of like, well, is we are the church? An accurate statement? Yes and no. And in some ways, I don't think it. I think in some ways it's very healthy to think that way. I think in other ways, it's actually detrimental to think that way. [00:06:11] Speaker C: Jack, what do you. So I guess I'm just asking you, since this was kind of your brainchild, if you have that concept of the church being the people, the answer being from your perspective, yes and no. What's the alternative? I suppose I don't think you're saying it's not the people. Obviously, there is an absolute yes answer that we know from Acts 2. The Lord added to the church those who are being saved. The body of Christ. Colossians 1. So many different places we could go. So I guess my question, just as we're kind of throwing this back and forth, throwing this around is what in addition to the body, then, or in addition to the people, what would you say is. Would be another. Call it satisfactory answer for what the church is. [00:06:57] Speaker B: It's one of those answers that it's. [00:06:59] Speaker A: It's. [00:07:00] Speaker B: What's the phrase? It's like, it's not more than, but it's also. Or it's. It's more than, but it's also not less than. Like, whatever your definition of the church is, it has to involve the people. Right. That you can't just say, no, it's not the people. That's part of the answer, for sure. But is that the entirety of it? Well, no, because again, the church is the pillar and the support of the truth. Well, are we all the pillar and the support of the truth? You can say, well, we're supposed to. Well, that's kind of idealistic, because that's not always the case. Not everyone is involved in that side of things. And so as far as. Yes, the church is the people, but it's also an institution made up of the people that, you know, and we can do this with any group of human beings. Like, are the New York Yankees the 25 guys on the roster right now? Yeah, but also, no. Right. I mean, there's a logo in a stadium and jersey. Yeah. And so in the same, you know, America is America, the 300 million Americans. Yeah, but also, no. You know, and so it's. There's a concept that outlives all of us that we all are buying into when we do it. And I think this is one of the problems that comes out of it. And the community church thing, the we are the church thing is we are the church very quickly becomes I am the church. And so my preferences, how I want. [00:08:18] Speaker C: To do it, not collective. [00:08:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And so that, again, that's the two sides of it. Joe, you mentioned the Catholics or the orthodox earlier. It's all collective. Like, it's all. We all lose ourselves into the Mass versus the other side of it, which is it's all a bunch of individuals coming for their own thing. And so it's gotta be somewhere in the middle where it's part collective, part individual. And I think I've mentioned before the book I read recently, Failure of Nerve on leadership. And it's really good. But he was talking about where there's that authoritarian leadership, everybody loses. I think this is in this book. So if I'm wrong. Okay, don't you know, sorry, I sold you guys the wrong book, you know, but I think it is actually in. [00:08:59] Speaker C: The you are saved book by Jack Wilkey. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Buy that one and go looking for it. Let me know if it's in there. That's right. But that when you're authoritarian, everybody loses their personality. And you kind of see this, you know, like the North Korea, everybody will dress as the same. You know, like, everything is. Everybody has to be the same. But then the individualist, kind of looser side of things, everybody gets to be themselves, which means you don't have a collective at all. You don't actually have an identity. You don't have a group. It's. And so it had. His point was good organizations, good families or whatever have that mix of everybody bringing their own family, their own personality, their own idea, or, you know, their own. Not ideas, but their own style into this thing that's bigger than them. You know, the. Well, another way to put this is the phrase the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So that's another way of looking at this. [00:09:49] Speaker A: Well, I was thinking about that concept of, like, shared culture. You've done a lot of writing on this. You've talked about this before with America and such and the importance of having a shared culture. That's why eating the turkey. You wrote that article, right? It's all on shared culture. Even Christmas. I think I saw a post of yours recently. I don't think it was. Maybe it was an article just about Christmas being more about. It's one of the last pieces of shared culture we have together as a society. Because we've been so fractured. I think the same thing can happen within the church. And that. That concept of having something in common that is different than just the immediate. You know, that's what creates a church, is a bunch of families that obviously are in common coming together to find something more in common. And it's that culture. It's that. That concept, I think, is the word that you had used that same with the Yankees. There's the. It's tough to say it's a concept of the Yankees because it's more than just a concept. But, like, who are the New York Yankees? Like, it's a. It's a belief system. [00:10:40] Speaker C: It's a tangible nature to it. Because they're wearing jerseys. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. So when you think about the church, what is the glue here? What is that concept? What is the thing that really kind of binds everything together? And we could say it's getting doctrine. Right, but maybe this is why we can be so fractured is that would then assume we all have to agree on exactly what doctrine is. And I think why we're such a big believer in really going back to Romans 14 and trying to say unity is really important, but what are we unifying around? And so we're always going to come back around to the question of, in my opinion of what is salvation, what's not. That's going to be a key question in terms of establishing a shared culture, a shared identity, a shared concept that's bigger as part of what is the church. [00:11:22] Speaker C: Will I want to dig into that thing or that. That phrase that you used earlier, Joe, to kind of as you kind of introduced it within this discussion. The church is not an organization. It's an organism is what people will say. I don't think it, you know, just going off of Google definitions is always the best way to go about things. But if you just look up the definition of the word so the AI course, like the first thing that pops up every time you Google definition of something just says an organization is fundamentally a structured group of people working together with a shared purpose, using coordinated activities, roles and systems to achieve common goals. Oxford an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society or association. I think the reason people try to stay away from that idea of the church being an organization is due to like the kind of the business, like the corporate connotations that comes along with it. But just kind of by definition, I would say the church absolutely is an organization. And this is where what reminds me or what it reminds me of. You guys remember the. I don't remember. I know we did a gym podcast on. I don't think we did a Think Deeper episode on the Pete Hegseth speech from two months ago now. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah, you guys did a gym and I did a cultural breakdown. So we all talked about it just in different ways. There you go. [00:12:32] Speaker C: So I actually played three minutes of that video for one of our. For our leadership meeting at our Chick Fil A earlier this week. And the part that I highlighted was the part where Hegseth essentially was saying standards have to be maintained and maintained at a high level. Otherwise they're not standards, they're just suggestions. Well, how does a. How can the church do that if you don't look at the church as somewhat of an organization? Right. That's where the leadership structure comes in. That's where the hierarchy structure comes in. To Yalls point about the individualism versus the collectivism. If it's just a bunch of individuals kind of, you know, not doing their own thing. But, you know, there's not more to it than just a bunch of individuals. It is a whole lot harder to enforce those standards. Those standards do turn into suggestions a whole lot more. And unfortunately, that is what you see in a lot of congregations is not a ton of standards. Right. And so I'm curious Yalls thoughts on. I guess I'm saying all that to say I don't know that I agree with that phrase, that the church is not an organization, but rather it's an organism. Because within an organization, again, just the definition, group of people working together for a certain purpose, typically there's going to be standards, there's going to be leadership structures. I don't know, it kind of all adds up to me there. What thoughts do you guys have on that concept? [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, as the church reset guy I was very big on, church is not a business, and I don't believe it as a business, but it is an institution in the same sense that the family is an institution. And with an institution comes identity, comes hierarchy, comes structure, comes processes and things like that. So, I mean, at the heart of this, where we say that the church is something bigger than just the people as part of it, that starts with Christ the head, right? This is all flowing from him. And he also administers it through the apostles. And again, as I quoted in Ephesians 4, the people he set up to give us that and maintain that and establish that. And I talk so much because I think it's such an important word that Paul talks about entrusting it, that Paul was entrusted and Timothy was entrusted and Titus was entrusted and the elders are entrusted, not everyone's entrusted. And so there's that structure there that if everybody in the church can leave, but the elders are still entrusted to do this stuff and hold this stuff up, where everyone in the church can want something, but they're not the ones entrusted with it. And so it's not a democracy. It's not all of us. And so this is the stuff we've mentioned, the Orthodox and Catholics a couple times where they're really one of their things that they're really trading on and working on is kind of telling people, hey, the church is the authority. The church is why you have the Bible that you have. The church is, you know, and I think they badly overstate that because they don't acknowledge the disagreements in what church leadership has been. But basically, the guys that, you know, the earliest Christians are more authoritative than us, and the heads the priests, whatever, the Pope in the Catholic Church are more authoritative than us right now? Well, no, I think that takes it too far. But on the other hand, I think most especially popular Christianity has gone too far in the other direction. You know, one of those classic overcorrections of basically you notice a lot of these community churches don't even have a doctrinal page, you know, and they say, well, we're non denominational usually they're pretty baptisty like they're. But it's also, it's just whatever we want to be, whatever we, whatever's going to get people in the door, whatever kind of churchianity we want to preach. And so that's what you end up with. And so like, well that, so you got nothing over here. And you've got again those two sides of this that get, I think overdo it. And so in the middle you've got to have the right thing, which is Christ through the elders and the preachers administering the church that we have today. That's what the church is. And if you don't have, if it doesn't go up to the top like that, it's not the church. [00:16:24] Speaker A: Here's where this gets sticky is you think about this on a mass concept, you know, going, going like global. We'll talk about. Yeah, there are members of the church that are worshiping in India, worshiping in China, worshiping in, you know, wherever it may be and in the US around the world. And so it's just this amazing thing. But this is what's difficult is, you know, in the just town of Nashville alone, there are going to be dozens of Church of Christ. There's gonna be a lot of people that have Church Christ in the door that just aren't going to be that, I guess to use names, you know, Otter Creek is now Otter Creek Church. It was Otter Creek Church Christ for a long time while it was still doing things that we would not hold to within the church and that we certainly wouldn't fellowship. That's what makes it difficult when we talk about the church like it goes back to, okay, what is, how do we define the church on a global level? Because that's what Catholicism is trying to do, is take everybody around the world, 1.5 or whatever it is, billion Catholics, and incorporate a concept of the church in general. We have the church being, we'd say the Church of Christ, but even within the Church of Christ we have people that wouldn't say are necessarily part of the church. And I think that's what makes This a difficult yet intriguing question for us is like, how do we define some of those things? And the other piece that comes out of this and will. It goes to your point on organization. When you were talking about that, I had this concept of like a, you know, adult softball team or something along those lines that doesn't take itself too seriously. Yeah, we're all in it together. We come together. We have a shared common interest in playing softball. We'll get there. Maybe we, you know, maybe things go well, maybe they don't. Versus, like a travel AAA team or whatever it is that, you know, kids that are kind of coming up and in or the pros, they have a set goal, a set purpose. We're already talking about the Yankees, so we'll go back to a sports league, an adult rec league, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, but, you know, the adult league stuff, they're still playing the same game, but they're not organized in the same way. It's like juniors, you know what I mean? And I feel like the church so often can kind of view that where we all come together. Yeah, we're all worshiping God, but the purpose itself is not moving the same. Correct. There's a casualness, and they're not moving in the same direction like the purpose itself. Whereas you look at a team that is in each other's homes all the time, you know, they're doing everything. We used to play travel hockey, and you'd see these teams that come in and smoke everybody. It's like, yeah, they're playing together all the time. They're best buds. They're doing things all the time. That is a big struggle for the average church of Christ or for the average church to be able to recreate that. Jack, you talked about this in church. Reset to create that connection, the hospitality, the having this closeness with one another. That's what really good travel teams do. That's what the teams that go out and beat everybody is. They have a shared common interest. Yes, in baseball, but it's so much more than just getting together in a rec league and playing some baseball. And I feel like most of the churches we talk about what is the church. It's like, oh, it's my rec. My rec baseball team. Not the. We got to go out and do big things for Christ and have this really strong purpose and this set of values that is going to dictate what the church looks like. And then how do we share that with everybody else? Because we may be all about it. We may be the travel team. Quote unquote, that's in each other's homes and doing everything else. Throw a rock down here and hit another church, Christ. And they're nothing like that. And yet we're all the church collectively. But the way we approach the church, the way we approach the concepts within the church are wildly different. That's again what to me makes so much of this a difficult concept. When we go to define the church and if we're too dogmatic about it and if I then start condemning the brethren that aren't taking it as seriously, then I quickly become the Pharisees and I back my way out of what I believe is the true church at some point. [00:19:57] Speaker B: So, well, I guess just, I'll just say this briefly to narrow our focus. I think it's better to keep it to the local church, like what we think the local church should be when we say what is the church? Because there is the church worldwide. But. And so the local church, we can say it should be this way and the one down the street's not. Well, that's kind of the point of Jesus administered this through the elders. So you can only do it in a local church. And we think every local church should act a as certain way. We can't make them but like the ideal for the local church. So when we say what is the church? Or when somebody says what is church? Well, it's not the building and it's not the worship time on Sunday, but what is it? And so that's, I say just keep it to the local church is a good way to kind of keep us on track. But will what'd you have there? In depth, but easy to understand. That's how war in heaven, war on earth. What the book of Revelation meant to the original readers and what it means for us today has been described. An Amazon reviewer said it was the best commentary on Revelation he had read in 50 years. Bradley Cobb spent literally thousands of hours researching and putting together this material, showing how first century Christians, the ones the book was written to, would have understood the book, how it matches with the rest of the Bible and how it was something that was about to happen when John wrote it. Thoroughly biblical in his approach, including the dating of the book and supported with first century history. This 550 page book does not gloss over any details and includes points of application throughout each of the book's 48 studies. Great for personal study or for a year long Bible class. Available on Amazon.com in hardcover, paperback or Kindle. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Yeah, so I turn to Ephesians 5 obviously, because there's. There's so much there that discusses there that describes the church. Because I was looking up just, you know, just search on. On Logos or Logos Church. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:46] Speaker C: Or churches. And not a ton of places where it gets necessarily defined. Right. You know, you see, obviously there's a ton of revelation to the angel, the church, write this. And, you know, there's actually. There's a ton in First Corinthians and Second Corinthians, just the English word church. I didn't. I didn't look up into the Greek or anything like that. But so a ton. So Ephesians 5 is where my mind went to, obviously. Wives, submit your own husbands. Verse 23. The husband's head of the wife is also Christ, head of the church, and he is the Savior of the body. I've never, I never thought about that before. The idea that, you know, those two things are kind of separated there. But then verse 25, of course, husbands, love your wives. Just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for her, that he might sanctify and cleanse her, the church with the washing of water by the Word, that he might present her the church to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she, the church, should be holy and without blemish. I don't know. I'd never really thought about it much in the light of kind of this discussion. But there's a. To me, that is more of an insight into what the church is in the New Testament than many other places. Again, like you go to Acts 2, but the Lord added to the church daily. And so that. That does to me, present the idea that it is kind of the. The body of people. But then I also, again, I go back to that organization word that people kind of have a problem with what I'm reading in Ephesians 5, as I'm reading about Christ giving himself up for the church, my sanctifying cleanse her with the washing of water by the Word. He might present her to himself, a glorious church, not having any spot or wrinkle. Yes, it's the people, but it's people that are united towards a common purpose, to serve God and to seek after Christ and to go that direction. And I don't. I'm sure there's people listening to us, thinking they're kind of splitting hairs here. I don't think we think about that. I don't think we process that, that it's not just the people that assemble on Sunday morning at 9 o' clock to hear the sermon and then are out the door. It's a group. I mean, again, verse 27, present her to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or ring or any such thing, that they should be holy without blemish. These are. This is a group of people. Yes, but a group of people that are striving after pursuing Christ and being like Christ and pursuing not just heaven with God, but, you know, pursuing a relationship with God. I don't know. Like, that's. [00:24:08] Speaker A: That. [00:24:08] Speaker C: To me, there's a lot more gravity to it than just, oh, yeah, church is the people. Church is people. Like, sure, but you got to get more specific than that. So I don't. That's kind of where my mind went as we're having this discussion. [00:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:20] Speaker B: And I want to give credit to the, you know, we are the church thing. You know, I noted a couple things on the outline of good qualities from that. And it's. It's, you know, telling people kind of the God has no hands but our hands kind of thing, like, we've got to do these things. And so when. Usually when people say that it's a good thing, and I agree with what they mean by saying it, of, okay, we have to evangelize. We have to go and serve and do those things that we're supposed to do and that we're salt and light and. Yeah, that. Like, if. Because there's also the. If not us, then who. You know, it's not. That's the preacher's job. It's all of our jobs. And so all of that is really good. But we are in this time where there's a lot of individualism among the members and very much a customer is always right mentality. Very much church is what I want it to be. I'll give you what I want. I'll follow when I want to follow. I won't if I don't. I just heard a story from an elder the other day of this member just running her own program, just kind of telling, well, you guys are doing that. You decided, I'm going to go do this other thing, and I'm going to get some of the people here to go do that with me. And not even leaving, just within the church. All right, well, you guys go do that over there, and we'll go do this over here. That, you know, and that is kind of the. And I'm not saying that, though we are. The church mentality is synonymous with that or leads to that, but it's also a, hey, you don't get to do that. You know, just because you are the church or you're part of the church or whatever doesn't make it your church. You know, my kids are part of the family. They don't make any big decisions. Right. And so when we think of ourselves as church members, yeah, I mean, this is all very kind of philosophical question and discussion about the church. And so hopefully we're not really losing people by getting into the weeds here. But I think what Will brings up there in Ephesians 5 is important of like, there is something here and there's expectations for what is here. And I referenced it earlier in passing. But I want to quote it is in 1 Timothy 3, 15, Paul gives the reason for writing 1st Timothy. He says, in case I'm delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. So you have a few things there. The church is the household of God. So again, just very parallel to a home. But then he says the pillar and support of the truth. Again, it's important for all of us to desire the truth, but certain people are entrusted with that truth, and it's up to us to submit to that truth. If you're not one of those people that's entrusted with it, especially submission is a really big part of being part of the church. And I guess maybe that, maybe more than anything is what I'm getting at here is like submission to something bigger than yourself has to be part of your engagement with the church, your understanding of the church. [00:27:07] Speaker A: I think that's why maybe this is my, you know, me just going back to the why, as per usual. That's why the purpose point really stands out in my mind is, you know, the thing that gets individuals working together is that they have a shared common purpose. When you think about the body, you think about the family, you think about marriage. All three of those are concepts used to describe the church. Well, with each one of those concepts, you have to have an understanding of. You have to have a why, you have to have a purpose of where you're moving. It's not just two people coming to live together to cohabitate and see how it goes. Like there's a purpose for marriage, a divine purpose. Same thing with. Same thing with the family is there is a purpose to the family. And when you see the homes that don't really have an understanding of where they're going or what they're all about, and it is Kind of a collection of individuals. It's a really sad concept because they're all. It's like every man for himself mentality. Everybody's in it to get what they want out of it. And the family serves the function of just trying to keep the individuals happy, not the other way around. But most of the time it's because the family has lost the. Kind of lost the plot, you know, they've lost the idea of what they're even attempting to do. When you see this happen in church and as you guys are talking about the individualism that really sets in, that to me is the biggest struggle in an organization is in order for me to have a buy in, I may not be part of the hierarchy structure. I still have to have a buy in. It's what every joint supplies. Everybody's important. But how do I know that I'm important? Because the church has a mission and I get to help be a part of that mission. If the church's mission is to show up on Sundays and just try to basically pay the bills and keep the lights on, that's not much of a mission for people to get behind. And I think the church as a, you know, as a structure, as an organization or whatever we want to say, even as a family, becomes an every man for himself mentality. It is there to serve me and to make me feel close to God. Rather than having a concept of where we're going that I can plug into and be a part of something bigger than myself, I get to be a part of the church rather than the church is just serving my needs because that's my goal, is to get to heaven. There's a bigger concept they're missing, which is the purpose of the church, I think. [00:29:13] Speaker C: Sure. You know, what evidence that is out there for this is how. Or just a piece of evidence, I suppose, is how little are young people say faithful. They grow up in the church, but they don't view themselves as part of the church. And I think that's why it's so easy for them to just up and leave, right? Go off to college and, you know, start going. Start maybe sleeping on Sunday mornings, right? And going twice a month. And that twice a month turns into once a month. And then they, you know, eventually just either become very casual spotty attenders or they leave the. They leave the church altogether. And so to me, that's evidence of this idea that young, at least young people, and so odds are probably a lot of older people as well, don't truly grasp what being a member of the church is all about. In fact, if you were to ask young people, take your average 8, 17 year old about to graduate high school, who goes to church, been going to church their whole life. If you were to ask them, like, hey, list out the parts of your life that you feel like you belong like that you are a part of a group, Right. How far down does the church hit their list? Right. How far down does the being a part of a group of people that are pursuing Christ and some of the things that I was talking about earlier, how far down does that hit their list? Right? They're going to mention their school, their sports team, their extracurricular activities, their friend group, whatever it is, maybe their family church will be somewhere fifth or sixth on the list. And so to me, that's kind of evidence of maybe why just telling kids that the church is the people is not wrong, but is just incomplete. Maybe to some, to some of the things Jack was talking about earlier in the, in the episode. Yeah, just like it doesn't stick. There's no buy in with a lot of young people and so that's why it's so easy for them to leave. [00:31:02] Speaker B: Good point. Yeah. I want to get to some of the specifics here in a minute, but to wrap kind of this part of it, it's kind of the adapted JFK quote of astronaut would your church can do for you? Ask what you can do for your church and yeah, your church is going to do some things for you, but you have to have the attitude to serve. Mark 10:45, Jesus came not to be served, but to serve. And we've got to do the exact same thing in our connection with the church. And the funny thing is we talked about the community church thing and kind of the very everybody come in exactly as you are and will do for you kind of thing. But then the Catholic Church with the whole the church is kind of king thing, the institutionalization, they both end up in the same place. It's weird how, you know, two sides of the pendulum can get it wrong in the same ways. In that the Catholics, it's like, we'll do it for you. We got the priests, we got the Pope, we'll handle it. You're not qualified to handle it. We'll handle it. The big box church thing is very much, we'll handle it. We'll put things on that you like. You show up, we'll put on game day and game nights for you. We'll have a bouncy castle for your kids. We'll do it. For you kind of thing. And it's kind of like gentle parenting versus really super strict authoritarian parenting. The gentle parenting is, I'll let my kid just go and destroy the house and I'll just come up after him and clean it up and just let them do whatever they want. They just get to do whatever they want because it's about them. On the other hand, I don't want my kid to mess anything up in my house. So I'm not like, I. In the end, the parent just ends up doing all the work either way. That's not how it's supposed to be. So, yeah, the church does require the involvement of the people, but that can only be done through the right structure of very clear, specific authority equipping people. As Ephesians 4 talks about, you've got to have these guys here. They've got to equip the people. And sometimes you've got church leadership that's wanting to do the right thing and the people aren't interested, very lazy very much. I want to get what church, you know, church needs to serve me. And then sometimes you've got church people who want to do stuff, but they're not submitting to the leadership and where the leadership wants to go, or the leadership's not leading them. And so you end up in this mess. And these are the kind of people we hear from. Sometimes they're just very frustrated with their church leadership. Like, well, they're not leading us. They're not helping us do things. They're not directing these efforts. And, you know, you got to get both of these elements right, I guess, is what we're getting at here to have the full picture of what church is supposed to be. So, like I said, I want to get to the specifics. Joe, would you have something? [00:33:28] Speaker A: No, I was just going to say that that's why I was hitting on the purpose so much is like. And why I think I'm a fan. I know this is left field, but why I'm a fan of this concept of Christ ruling the nations. Christian nationalism a little bit is it gives us a purpose for man. There's a reason we go out and do these things. And yeah, we want to get people to heaven, no doubt. I think that's a great goal. But there's a reason why we go out and try to be the best Christians we can be and to be loud about our faith and to live it out and to vote in a very positive way that is going to lead toward the spread of Christianity, because there is a goal at stake. When we're not buying into the concept of what church is and it kind of lives to serve me, it's like there's something much greater here. There's a bigger thing. And the more that we talk about multi generational faithfulness, the more we talk about, you know, this, this grand concept of the family and the grand concept of passing down through the generations, you start to think again, generationally, the link in the chain. We've used that concept before the church as a, as a whole and throughout time, like we get to play an important part, but if we lose that, if we make it more about the individual and I feel like we break that link in the chain, the next generation has to pick it up. I think that's what we're seeing here where the church has just become more about how it serves us. Gen Z and the following generations are going to have to kind of pick that up and redefine. Let's go back to what the church is intended to be, which is again what we're, we're trying to discuss here, Will. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Well, like your church is an outpost on the battlefield of a global invasion kind of thing. Rather than it's just there. [00:34:54] Speaker A: It's just there. Yeah, it just exists. Like why does it exist and why is it important to exist and to maintain its place in every single community? There's that post going back a little while back of like, well, isn't it great that you know, a church just sold its building and gave to the poor and they built low income housing there? It's like, no, it needs to be a light in the community. The church needs to be there because the community, the church is not just a concept, it's something more. And that's where the church building comes in. And like it needs to be an integral part of each community and see itself as something bigger than just. Or here. You know, we show up on Sundays and Wednesdays and just kind of worship God. Like, don't lose the plot of what the church is intended to be and not just. I know the purpose and what it is are two different things, but I do think they go hand in hand that you can't understand who you are until you know what you're supposed to do, if that makes sense. But yeah, I agree with you. We can get into the practical will. [00:35:41] Speaker C: Well, Jack, I know you really want to get there. I had a question that. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Keep it rolling. [00:35:46] Speaker C: It's just kind of tied to this in my brain. You guys might hear this and be like, that's not tied to it at all. So you. You kind of have that. There's that idea, right, that the church is the. Is only the people. And so I'm curious from Yalls perspective, because Jack, for instance, I know you. You in particular, Joe, I think you agree with him, would warn against certainly really big churches. Right. As far as high member count, you know, north of 3, 400 people. That's a lot, right? You talked about that before. On the other hand, both of you guys have also. I don't remember if Jack was moved out yet or not, but y' all did, like, a home church type of thing, right? With, like, kind of one other family? Theoretically, under the church is the. You know, is only the people. That's really kind of all that matters. That should be just as. I don't want to say just as good, just as valuable, just as legitimate, maybe, is the word I would use. I'm curious if that as I bring that kind of concept of a home church, like, let's say me and another family decide, like, hey, this is what we want to do. You know, family in Iowa or something. There's nobody around. Like, how much does that play into this discussion of maybe you do need a little bit more than just, you know, one or two families coming together? Like, I'm just curious. I guess I'm just asking if Yalls experience with doing. Trying the home church thing 15 years ago or whatever it was colors this discussion at all and adds a little bit of light to maybe it is a little bit more than just a group of people getting together to have the Lord's Supper. You know what I mean? [00:37:16] Speaker B: Right. It's interesting. There's some guys that are really trying to push the return to home church thing, and that's how it was meant to be. That's how the first century church did it. And that kind of leaves the question of, like, were we always supposed to do that, or were they working towards something bigger? And I think they were working towards something bigger, that it could become more of an institution with staying power the destination. Yeah. Not that it was going all the way up to the Vatican and the Pope and all that. Like, I think that's an over, you know, overextension of it. But on the other hand, that, you know, we were only ever to meet with homes in homes with a few people. I don't get that. And I think that's one of those things. The fruit of home church movements is usually they start out pretty good. They can even grow pretty fast, pretty quick, and then they Just run into a dead end. Like, how many houses are you going to get? It doesn't always go that well because the formality that it, like, it's. That was the fledgling church. That was the church in its infancy. The church learning to walk. Well, when you're learning to walk, you do things different than when you're 25 years old, you know. And so what was the mature church supposed to look like? And was it wrong for the church to move into a building eventually? Was it wrong to. You know, and yeah, home churches can have elders, they can have, you know, structure, things like that. But I think. And so it's not so much about the building as much as the attitude behind it. Like you say, it's not just, well, I love Jesus and you love Jesus, so let's get together and worship him together like that. That, again, is one of those extreme ends of this we are the church thing. Well, that's all it takes. No, it does take something more. So that's a really interesting. That's a great question. It really is. [00:38:50] Speaker A: I don't know that I have the answer. You know, specifically, there's those that are gonna rip out the. You know, where two or three are gathered in my name. I'm right there with them. Right. Ripping out of context. [00:38:58] Speaker C: Just. [00:38:59] Speaker A: Sorry, go for it. [00:39:00] Speaker C: I was gonna say poorly misused or very badly misused. [00:39:02] Speaker A: Very poorly. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Very, very misused. But some people point to that and say, well, God is present. And do I think that God could bless a. A church theoretically like that? Yeah, no doubt. But I think the. I think Jack's right. Now what that missing, you know, the secret sauce is. Or. Or what? Like, when does a. Because it just breaks. And again, this is why. Thank you guys for sticking with us. If you're this far. This is more kind of, as you said, Jack, a theoretical. Maybe a little scattered on this. But it's like, at what point does a home church become a legitimate church? Is it when they move out of the homes and into a building? What if they had more people at the home than they had at the building, but now at the building, they have a little more legitimacy because they're there. And maybe they buy the nice communion trays. And so, you know, at what point. And now we're back to the ship analogy of like, okay, what plank was the time where it's now become. And I know that's kind of badly misusing the illustration, but, like, what plank was the time where it finally became a church? Like, we had this concept of a church. And then somewhere along the way, it became something different or became something legitimate. What the crossover line is is really tough to know. In my opinion. It's more of a. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know if that's a. Because I think you could have a home church where you have 25 members that show up. They take things very, very seriously. Maybe they are in the. The. You know, they're in the path of trying to grow. They're in the path of maybe trying to become, you know, get their own place and hopefully grow to a much bigger congregation. But they have 25 dedicated Christians. Who would I be to say that's not a legitimate church? On the other hand, okay, let's dwindle that number down to 12 and they meet in the same church. Okay, well, there's plenty of congregations in Tennessee here that do have 12 on a Sunday morning, but they're in a bit, you know, in a bigger building. They just dwindled down. Are they any more legitimate than the 12? Back around to theoretical concepts that I don't know that we have the answer for. But it's almost more. And as goofy as this sounds, it's almost more of a feeling of, are we taking ourselves seriously and do we have, once again, kind of a mission as to what we're trying to do with this church? Because if it's just us getting together and trying to avoid all the other problems of the other churches, that, to me, is very wrong. Starting the other church to do that. And, you know, looking back at our time, we thought we'd have more families. We had a couple visitors back at the time. And so that's not to justify or anything else, but I think there was a level of, yeah, taking a break from some church hurt for a second and trying to see what would come of it, of having some dedicated Christians and travel schedules and things like that caused it to be illegitimate in a way. And so, yeah, it's that type of thing. Like, if one family having a travel schedule crumbles the church, then how legitimate is the church? [00:41:37] Speaker B: Right. Fair enough. So the part I want to get into here before we wrap is when things go wrong at a church, whether it's in the leadership or whether it's in the membership, that's when the practical. That's when we get into the specifics of, like, that's where it starts kind of pressing this whole we are the church thing. Well, like, which of us are they? Not the church. Are we the church or Whatever. And so I don't know which side you guys want to look at first of all. Kind of the members doing their own thing, kind of calling their own shots, insubordination, or the church leadership going astray, starting to teach things that are wrong, starting to allow sin, tolerate things, whatever that may be the case may be. Which one do we want to talk about first? [00:42:20] Speaker C: Well, to me, I think the tougher one is when a church, when church leadership and basically an entire congregation seems to be kind of floating off the deep end essentially. Because to me, the answer for an individual doing that, I, I say it's simple. I don't mean that it's simple to handle. I just mean the solution should be fairly simple, which is church leadership steps up and says basically get back in line. Like you do not run the show when church leadership though. And, and this, this kind of expands into a much bigger concept of church fellowship. Like obviously there, you know, we were talking before, before we got on about, you know, non institutional. For instance, there are some non institutional congregations that have no problem, you know, kind of fellowshipping other congregations that are not non institutional. And there are others that do not. And so, you know, what, what should we consider them? What should they consider us? You've got a congregation that maybe has a female youth intern. I don't think any of us would be comfortable, let's say she does. You know, I had this in Alabama. I know I talked about before a congregation that was close to where I was working, female youth intern, didn't speak in front of the boys, didn't do anything like that. But like, I'm certainly not comfortable with that. Right. I don't think either one of you guys either, stuff like that to me. So to me that's the more interesting discussion is what to do when a, again, the leadership, the elders, a whole congregation starts to kind of again, drift off the deep end. So yeah, that's really tough. [00:43:43] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah, so I mean that gets to the when to leave a church and all that. And like what? I guess the question that in keeping in line with what we were talking about is what is the church of? Like, what does that make the church, let's say the First Avenue Church of Christ. To use just the standard Church of Christ illustration for the First Avenue Church of Christ, there's a piano on stage, the First Avenue Church of Christ. As a woman get up in the pulpit or whatever this hypothetical church does that, are they the church anymore? And you get into the lampstand discussion in Revelation 2 and 3, like, it's going to be taken away. And that they tolerated false teachers, they tolerated the woman, Jezebel, the Nicolaitans, those. Those different. Different in different cases. But, like, hey, you're letting this stuff in, you know, in through the cracks, and it's causing you these problems, and you're going to lose your lampstand. And so I guess that means, like, but did that. That church probably kept meeting even if they lost their lampstand. They thought they were a church. They're not a church, are they? The church and. [00:44:46] Speaker C: Or the church at Corinth that had all kind of things wrong with them. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Right. And so when do you leave that church? Because there has to be a point at which it's okay for you to leave the church and you still are part of Christ's church, even though you left that church and you're not part of that church. But again, there's that other side of it of like, well, I disagree with these guys, therefore I'm out on one thing, therefore I'm out the door. You know, it's a difficult spectrum. That's one of the questions we get probably more than most, is when do you actually leave a church? That's a really hard one. [00:45:20] Speaker A: That's a really hard question. Because for me, both of those might be. [00:45:25] Speaker B: I don't think there's also the matter of trajectory that is really important. There's no church that wakes up one morning is like, all right, we're going to have Susie preach this week. That doesn't happen. They have deaconesses. They let her co. Teach a class, whatever. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's always. We talked about it before, but one of the congregations that we attend when I was very young and left around 2 years old was because there was just that. The elders literally said, we're looking to push the envelope. And within a few years of us leaving, they had turned community into a community church and just took church Christ out the door. And you could see that, exactly to your point, like, this gradual creep of, why would you mic women in the audience? You know, you don't need to. And while they're not leading, we just mic them because the music sounds better. And then, you know, you just kind of go to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And is it enough to mic a woman and then leave over that? I don't know. At some point, yes, the conscience has to be pricked to say, okay, I'm not okay with it. I wasn't okay with number one. There's seven Things in, you know, how bad does it have to get? I think if you're discussing with the leadership and the leadership has really shown that their. Their bent or their trajectory is outside the bounds, you know, like it's. It's going off. Yeah, I think that's where you do have to say, trajectory wise, I am looking to leave. And on the first one, if you call that out and they say something which they literally told my parents were pushing the envelope, not a good thing. That's not what we're looking to do. And so when my parents left, I think they're fully justified in that. If the elders had said, I see where you're coming from. I see why this is a struggle. We're doing this because of xyz, they can point to biblical reasons, which I don't think in that situation they can. But even if they give a halfway decent reason, you say, okay, and that's all it ever says, then you have to decide. It's against my conscience. I don't necessarily know that I condemn them, you know, for micing people in the audience, some which have to be women, I certainly am not comfortable with that. But that's a different concept than, yeah, the trajectory is really, really off. So from a leadership standpoint. And, Jack, to your point, when did they stop being the church? Was it somewhere along that spectrum where they have the lampstand removed or where the concept of the church is now twisted and morphed into something that I don't think that it actually is? Once again, we're asking a lot more questions than we're answering. But this goes to show the struggle, the nature of the struggle to say definitively, this is what it is. [00:47:41] Speaker C: Jack, you've got on there the. And I know you briefly mentioned it, but the Revelation chapters two and three about the churches, the seven churches that are written to. I find it so fascinating that, you know, he says the angel of the church, so that he's still acknowledging these places or these. These groups of people, buildings, congregations, whatever, as the church. But what does he tell most of them? What's the word he uses? Repent. And he says, repent, or else I will. You know, you'll have your lampstand removed. And so what you see in Revelation, what you see in those two chapters, is the church. He still calls it the church. There's not like, well, they're just completely off now, but they do have. And maybe this is kind of what I was getting at earlier with First Corinthians, with the church in Corinth they had some margin. And then once they were warned about that and kind of told about it, then they had Runway to either repent or continue down and have their lampstand removed. And so I don't know, to me, I feel like that very much could still apply. I mean, again, he says it to Pergamos, he says it to Ephesus, like, of course, Thyatira, like that. You. You'll need to. That they need to repent as a church. But I do find it interesting that that label of church was not removed before they repented. Does that make sense? Like, again, there's like some Runway there. So I don't know what. You're the one that put on the outline, Jack, but. But what thoughts did you have about those examples of the church's Laodicea as well? Of course. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Yeah, there's definitely that warning. The thing that's interesting to me is that angel can. It's translated sometimes in the New Testament as messenger. Sometimes it's an angel. Sometimes, like John the Baptist was called an Angelos. You know, like, they're the same word. And so it could be a human. It might be to the preacher, it might be to, you know, that person. And also interesting is with Ephesus, you lost your first love. That's singular. That's you, not y'. All. That's you. Right? And honestly, depending if you take that meaning to be that way, which is debatable once again. And if you take revelation be the early date, which is again, once again debatable, that means he's writing to Timothy at the same time Paul is writing to Timothy to say, hey, get your act together. And so it's very much the point I'm making at here is like, this could be through the leadership, like, hey, this church is going to lose its lampstand because of you. And so this is the thing, I think that kind of as we start to wrap and button this whole thing up is I don't think we realize how much the church is defined by its leadership. And so, yes, it's the people, but it's also heavily dependent on who's doing the preaching and teaching, who's doing the shepherding, who's doing those roles. That's who God interfaces with in this. And so one of the things I've gotten crazy pushback on, obviously, and I think we talked about it on an episode at some point about closed communion of the church, just saying, hey, this is for the members, but also, like, as part of church discipline, saying, you don't get to take the Lord's Supper anymore. You don't get to do that. And man, people are very uncomfortable with that. People really don't like that idea because, well that's between me and God. No, no, the church serves the Lord's Supper. You don't get to take your cracker and juice up on your hike with you and have it by yourself. You don't get to like, this is administered by the church. The. And again the Catholics have the guy break it and put it in your mouth for you. I'm not all the way up there. But on the other hand, it's also not between you and God. It's absolutely not between you and God. And I think that's what we've gotten to with this. I am the church. I like, I come to God and the church kind of helps me with my relationship with God. But like, no, the church is the administration of God, like is, I don't know, it's on things like that where you really see the split in people's minds between what the church is and what they think the church is. Does that make sense? [00:51:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think the same thing, like a father with setting the tone in the home. We talk about the father being the culture setter. Like it's the leadership in the home that defines the family. That defines what that is supposed to look like, what the family is all about, what do we do here and what are the rules and everything else. And so the concept of a kid getting to define the family itself because the kid goes, well, I'm just not going to do that. Like that's not what we do here. And having a strong leadership presence within the church and being able to point back to that. I think you're exactly it, Jack. And this goes to show. Yeah, we don't have all the answers. We've asked a lot of questions, probably left some open ended that. Make sure to comment and put your thoughts in. [00:51:58] Speaker B: But one other thing to kind of follow up on what you're saying there. The thing about the angels is they're going to answer for it and not. You appreciate that, right? Appreciate that your preacher, your elders are going to answer for things that you're not going to. And so doing that. Well, I'm just right there next to you. You're not actually. And that's not a good way to approach your relationship with the chur. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. And I'm just saying, you know, we may not have all the answers, but this is why it's important is because these concepts are on the line. The concept of, hey, do we administer the Lord's supper to somebody who's clearly in sin or somebody who is, you know, like you said on their hike alone. Like, these are real world problems that are solved when we understand what the church is and that the church is more important than just the people, just the individual putting time and effort into it. So it is. I'm glad you put the outline together, Jack, and brought this up because again, maybe a little scattered and maybe, you know, not everything, maybe a little tangential in some ways, but by and large I think it's very relevant and it's going to be a question that's going to come up a lot more, especially in future generations, as we really do try to get back to. Okay, it's not just the secret sensitive, you know, we're really trying to get to the individual and it's all about catering to them. People are rebelling against it. That's why we're seeing Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism in bigger numbers. They're adding in droves because people are looking for the authority that the church provides. We got to make sure we're bringing that in and allowing for the church to be the church and not just whatever whim the average member wants it to be. Will any other closing thoughts before we get to think fast? [00:53:25] Speaker C: Only, only thing that I'll wrap up with is the leadership point is fantastic. I mean, even just mentally, for me, when I hear somebody say, yeah, the church is the people, I'm not thinking the leadership, I'm thinking, I'm thinking the members. And so like that. That's a very important distinction to make that. No, because you think about any, not to use the word again, organization, any group of people, they're defined by their leaders. Absolutely. The culture is defined by them. The, again, the standards that I brought up earlier is defined by the leaders. And so we can say the church is the people, all we want. And it is, of course, the, the leaders have leadership has so much sway over what the church culture looks like. Staple point of our podcast. Don't need to rehash it. But so, yeah, that was a really good point. That's pretty much all that I have to wrap up with. [00:54:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate you guys kind of indulging this. This is the kind of discussion I just, I sit and think about all the time. And so it's kind of fun to just riff on it and see what you guys thought and kind of formulate some of this I hope this was of interest to the listeners. As always, get your comments in on Focus plus for the deep end, but also YouTube, Facebook, shoot us a message wherever you'd like to reach out. Hey guys, Jack here. I'm excited to tell you about my new book, you Are the Christian's Assurance. For too many years I have run into Christians who aren't really sure where they're going to go when they die. They don't feel like they can say that they are righteous. And so I set out to write a book to give you confidence and assurance of your salvation. It's laid out in 13 chapters for churches to study as a Bible class with discussion questions at the end of each chapter. And of course you can just read it on your own either. It's for individuals, it's for classes. However you would like to approach it, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it on Focus Press. We offer discounts for group sales of it in groups of 5 and 10 on Focus Press. So if you're gonna study it with your church, be sure to check that out and get that deal. So be sure to check out yout Are Saved Today once again on Amazon and Focus Press. Alright, we've got a Christmas themed. Think Deep, Think Fast, Think Deeper is the whole podcast. Think Fast is this brief little snippet here at the end on the question of Santa Claus. And I know this has long been a question. I think even we've discussed it before, like what are you gonna do with your kids with Santa Claus? For whatever reason this year it is a really hot topic with a lot of people and a lot of Christians. [00:55:38] Speaker C: It's big on X right now. [00:55:39] Speaker B: Yeah, their substack, it's, it's going around. I've seen a couple things on Facebook. I think Texas Monthly, when I googled it, there was an article in the Atlantic. There was an article like all these magazines and in publications, is it a lie to play Santa with your kids? Is it a lie to say, well, Santa's coming, he's gonna leave you presents, all that stuff? Is, is it wrong to do that for your kids? I, you know, I thought, well, I. There's pros and cons to doing it, not doing it. And with us, we, we kind of let the kids know pretty early on. Yeah, it's not a hundred percent, you. [00:56:10] Speaker C: Know, not doing Santa Claus. Right. [00:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean like. But they're still kind of into it. So they talk about Santa even though it kind of comes back on to. Yeah, there's not actually a Guy Santa. But you're gonna get presents and it's kind of, it's part of the spirit of this thing. And so it's kind of a hybrid thing. And I think some people do that. But no, there's some people very much out saying it is a sin to, to tell your kids that Santa Claus is going to give them presents. So what do you guys think about that. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Will? [00:56:36] Speaker C: I've got, yeah, I got a lot of thoughts. Let me, let me start with. I, I understand the concern. I understand the premise of, let's say a kid finds out at 9 years old that Santa Claus is not real. Well, that was nine years that they believe something that wasn't true. You as their parents, again, I can understand people that say this. You as the parents kind of perpetuated that. Therefore you are guilty of lying to them. My short and not very, you know, not very well worded take is that people just need to get a grip. Like it's really not that serious. My longer take. So let me address first that there are people who will, who will try to say that you are going to lead your kids to question belief in God if you do Santa Claus. I've heard that from quite a few people. Like, you'll teach them, you'll, you'll tell them Santa's real, they find out he's not, and then they'll get to their 15, 16 year old, get to be 15, 16 year old and basically say, okay, so is God not real either? I understand that there are people that there are kids who have asked that question. My take on that has always been if you're, if your kid learns to equate Santa Claus with God or if your kid's faith is going to be dependent on whether or not they did or didn't believe in Santa Claus, like you've kind of got some big fish to fry there. Like, I don't think that's a fair thing to say. But I guess what I would ask, you know, I was being a little bit tongue in cheek with the get a grip thing. But like, I do think there is an element of, like there are make believe things that we let kids believe. There are make believe things that, that kids just kind of naturally, you know, play. And Matt Walsh had a great tweet about it, tweet that at least I thought was pretty great. He said young, young children think Batman is real. They think fairies and mermaids are real. I let my children believe all that stuff too. If my daughter tells me she saw a fairy in the Garden. I don't say, no, you didn't. Fairies are fake. No, he says, I play along and say, you did awesome. Where was it? He says, the same kind of thing we do with Santa. And I had that kind of thought as well, of, like, do these people who say it's wrong to teach your kids about Santa every time the kid points, you know, says something about a unicorn, or to Matt Walsh's point, about a fairy, like, now you know that's not real, right? Now you know it's not real. You know, again, kind of the. The person who, you know, watches a fictional movie and spends the whole time telling you, now you know this isn't real, right. You know this is fake, right? Like, nobody wants to be around that kind of person. And so I, again, I get what they're saying, and I probably shouldn't have been so dismissive of it, but I do feel like there is an element of, I don't know, fantasy. Like we need to be able to let our imagination run. And so, I don't know, I'm kind of throwing a lot of thoughts out there, but I don't see it near as harmful as so many people do. I grew up believing in Santa Claus. Never once did I question God when I found out Santa wasn't real. Never once did I blame my parents for lying to me. Like you to me. You engage in that with your children because there is some magic associated with it. [00:59:37] Speaker A: There is. [00:59:37] Speaker C: You know, again, kids believe Mickey Mouse is real. For goodness sakes. How many parents are telling them, hey, you know, Mickey Mouse isn't real? So, yeah, that was ramble. Joe, what do you think? [00:59:47] Speaker A: I don't know. I've had. I had a Psychology Today article pulled up. The guys seems very, very anti Santa or lying to your kids. And it just seems such a harsh word. And I know technically, I suppose it is. I would say it's almost righteous deception, in a way as weird as that sounds, where you are allowing your kids to indulge and engage in something that is magical, something that is, you know, it's a lot of fun. And it's a way to give to your kids in a way that it's like you don't have to have the kid thank Santa or thank you. It's like they just get to enjoy the gift and be doted on, where it's. I don't know. There's something cool about that where my kids don't have to turn around. Thanks, mom and dad. Like, they're very grateful kids and they'll do that on the gifts that we give them. But just this idea that somebody's out there watching them, you know, watching out for them and taking care of them type of thing. Like, I. Like there's a warm and fuzzy element to it that, okay, sue me, you know, well, you're lying to your kid. Like, no, there's a level of allowing my kid to believe something that is inaccurate because, sure, it is playing into the fun. It's playing into the lighter side of life and allowing them to enjoy the unicorns, the fairies, Batman and Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy in the Easter Bunny and things like that. I don't have a problem with those things. For those kids that are scarred psychologically yet, that was kind of a millennial thing of, like, I can't believe my parents lied to me. I was going to ask that. Like, it's such a millennial take. [01:01:13] Speaker C: What does it say about you that you were traumatized? I don't know. I'm not trying to be harsh, but, like, what does it say about you that you were traumatized when you found out Santa Claus didn't exist? You know, like, there was a time. [01:01:22] Speaker A: When imagination, I think, first off, was way more present than it is now. The other thing is there's a time when, like, I think kids needed to believe in something greater, you know, needed. And, yes, God, too, but, like, needed to believe that there's hope and there's joy and there, you know, somebody out there is taking care of him type of thing. Like, and then the cynicism sets in. And I think Gen X was very cynical, and I think the millennials kind of carry that cynicism of, we don't need that. You know, I want you to tell me the truth, and authenticity becomes big and everything else, and it's like, yeah, but there's a level of letting kids be kids. And so, Jack, I am curious. You're. You're the. I'm a millennial, too, technically, but just on the back end, you're a little more in that. And you are the one that my kids firmly believe in Santa. And I'll tell them eventually, of course, but you're not quite on the. Firmly to the other side, for sure. But where do you fall on some of these things? [01:02:10] Speaker B: There really is that. That irony with millennials that, like, earnestness is looked as a bad thing, as a weakness, as a, oh, wow, look, you know, get a load of this guy kind of thing. And even down to. With children, I think there's kind of, like a revisionist History of like, oh wow, you idiot. You actually believed in that kind of thing? Like, yeah, because you're five years old, you know, like it's harmless. Yeah, right. Well, and just again, innocence and earnestness. I mean, these are the same people that are playing with the toys that are meant for five year olds, right? I mean, like they don't, they don't have a sense of what a five year old is, especially when you don't have kids or whatever. And when you have kids, you see the wonder and all that. And so I think that's one of these. This is very hard to have this, this discussion legitimately because we are so saturated in cultural influences we don't even understand. Because I was trying to look up like, how long has this been going on? Best I could tell, it's been for at least a few hundred years that like a couple hundred years that people have played it, oh, Santa's coming, you know, and I mean like that. So this has gone on for a long time and nobody thought, oh, wow, we're lying to her. And these are not impious people. These are not people who aren't or like don't care about what God says. They just didn't think about it in these ways that we do. And it might be that we just take ourselves a little bit too seriously. I don't know. Now, about the thing the kids pretend. I do see a difference in parents telling the kid and parents letting the kid indulge their own thing. You know, like my little Gloria used to tell me, daddy, there's a rhino in my bedroom. And I'd go, you know, help her get the rhino out of her bedroom. There's no rhino. Just, you know, imagination. I didn't tell her, hey, there's a rhino in your bedroom. And really ham it up and really try and get her to believe it and you know, keep telling her that. And so I can see a difference there. But still I. [01:03:47] Speaker C: But you played along with the, with the idea that there was a rhino in there. I think just like a lot of parents play along with it, treated it as real Santa Claus. [01:03:54] Speaker B: But I'm saying there's a difference between planting the idea and a, a child's imagination. A child's imagination didn't come up with Santa. You know, like adults said, hey, here's this guy that's going to come into our house and you need to be good or he's going to give you a bad present. And you know, things like that. And so that I do see a difference there. But I don't, I don't know how to evaluate this again. Like I don't know how to separate it from everything that we find ourselves in. And you never can separate it. But I'm saying if you look back, yeah, and they were in their own culture, but for those couple hundred years that nobody was really asking this question any. I guess my way of putting it is this way, anything that in the last 10 years we go, we figured it out and everybody before us was stupid. I always like hit the pause button for a second and take a look around. [01:04:44] Speaker A: Well, and it's really tough to be lectured by the group that put Ronald McDonald to death. That every amount of whimsy. And I know we've talked about this before, but every amount of whimsy that we have in this culture, every bit of fun that, that was just for kids. Every kid only space is gone. Is gone. And you're going to lecture me on how to take care of my kids and on lying to your kids. It's because you can't treat kids as kids. You want to treat them as adults and kids that are parentified want to be treated as though they're parents and as though they are adults. How dare they lie to me. It's like, no, you don't get to lecture me at all on kids because a, you're the generation that gave up on kids. You don't have kids. Or if you do, they're out of wedlock and it's a disaster. And I'm sorry, I'm broad brushing here, but. [01:05:23] Speaker B: Or they're just like the parenting styles, you know, like treating your three year old like a CEO, the gentle parenting. [01:05:29] Speaker A: And then getting rid of every kid only space. All the kid fun stuff and then commandeering all of that and making a bazillionth Marvel movie because you can't grow up yourself. Don't lecture me on me believing, having my kid believe in Santa. I'm sorry, it rings as pretty ridiculous. [01:05:45] Speaker B: Coming from Ronald McDonald died. [01:05:47] Speaker A: I'm just saying they put, they put Ronald McDonald to death basically, like the, the metaphorically. Well, that's why he has the hospital. [01:05:55] Speaker C: Sorry, never mind. [01:05:59] Speaker A: Anyway, that's terrible. But no, the, the idea of like the fun of kids and they're bringing it back kind of whatever, but. [01:06:07] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:08] Speaker A: It's, it's, that's the point that I would get. And I agree with you that this is kind of a relatively new thing to question the idea of Santa planting it. I had people know a little bit. [01:06:16] Speaker C: I hadn't thought of that before that. It is kind of a new thing that people are starting to. And, and like you said, Jack, people are emphatic about it. Like there are, there, there are typically, there are not very many people who are like, I don't really think you should, but I don't really care. No people, if they lean that way, they're typically like, you know, you're basically a bold faced liar is kind of the way they describe it. [01:06:36] Speaker B: Right. And, and somebody's gonna come in and be like, well, my parents didn't do it back in 1970, broadly speaking. This was not a huge cultural conversation. Yeah, we're, yeah, there's always going to be the exception. [01:06:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:48] Speaker B: I mean, there's people that in around the world that haven't ever played Santa Claus. Like, we can always find somebody. But these articles. Yeah. Calling it like a lie and deceiving your children and unchristian and all that like that, that is very new, I feel. [01:06:59] Speaker C: Well, because you hear parents, you'll hear people too that say, well, I want my kids to know, you know, that I'm the one that got them the presents and not some random guy. [01:07:07] Speaker B: It's like getting my credit. [01:07:09] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, I know that's probably tongue in cheek at the same time. Like, I'm sorry, I would rather my 5 year old have a little bit of whimsy. I like that word. Like a little bit of, you know, it's, it's really dumb. But we haven't, we have an elf on the shelf here at our house and man, my kids love coming down the stairs and trying to find where the elf is. Right. And you know, what am I gonna say? Well, you know, I actually moved the elf last night. I'm the one that put it here. Like, no, of course I'm not gonna do that. Right. But that's, yeah. So that's, it's a very, very interesting discussion, I will say. [01:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I guess I didn't really come down on it anywhere, but I don't think you have to. But I, I, yeah, it's, it's very hard to, I don't know, the, the dogmaticness of it is very interesting to me. I don't know. I'm not there on that. I guess I'll say that much. [01:07:53] Speaker A: I get the lies, you know, I get where they're coming from and saying you're lying to your kid. I just think from a psychological standpoint, allowing your kids the joy of, you know, believing in something that is like, I don't know, it's just a. And yeah, I guess you could say that's with God. But I think it's really healthy to foster a child's imagination as much as possible and let them, let them grow with it and they will soon meet the realities of life of hey guess what, those things cost money and hey guess what, you know, there's no Santa Claus. There's time and place for that. But I'm a big believer in letting kids be kids as long as they can because adulthood hits you man upside the head. And the sooner it hits you, the usually the worse adjusted you are as an individual. You know, if you have to grow up at 7 years old and realize that the world is a lot harder than you thought it was, no 7 year old or 8 year old or 9 year old really needs to be dealing with that. They're kids. Let them be kids. And Santa is a big part of it, of kids imagination. It just represents childhood to me in so many ways of the joys and wonders of what life could be that will come crashing down. And I'm not trying to be pessimistic but look man, you pay taxes and you start to realize Mr. [01:08:59] Speaker B: Cynical has ended. [01:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially self employment tax and you go wow, life hit hard. You know what, let them be kids. So that's my take. [01:09:08] Speaker B: You're of the mindset you can never do too much to make a kid child's Christmas magical. So anyway, all right, we're gonna get out of here for that one. Appreciate everyone that has listened this far into the full episode. As always, think fast if you're catching this. We did a full episode on what is the Church. So keep an eye out for that on Monday and yeah, I think we're gonna wrap right there and we'll talk to you on the next one. [01:09:39] Speaker A: Foreign. [01:09:49] Speaker B: Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate.