Santa Claus: Fun Myth, or Dangerous Lie?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Will Harb and my brother Joe Wilkie. This we're doing something we've never done before. Last week we did a think fast at the end of our episode on what is the Church on the Santa Claus controversy. We had all seen in our different social media feeds a lot of discussion about Santa Claus this year and about telling your kids that Santa is real and playing along with that game. Is it a lie? Is it dishonest? Is it something that Christians should avoid? And it was just very interesting to us how loud the discussion had gotten. Of course. And some people point out, yeah, some people have always been this way, have always been anti Santa Claus. And again, that goes back a long ways. But this discussion, this kind of, okay, let's make everybody revolution re legislate this, this idea and all that is at least to me, very new. And so we put that out. We got 16 YouTube comments. I made a post on Facebook. I think I got in the up to 20. There was something like 70 comments on my Facebook post that I made about it. And so it just caught our eye. We thought, well, this is really interesting. We'll go ahead and talk about this. And so again, we did the Think Fast. It kept going. And here we are to have a full episode on it. So we're going to look at some different angles. We're going to. One of the things we didn't look at in the Think Fast was is it a lie? Is it always off limits to mislead or to say something that's not 100% true and things like that. So a lot of different directions we have to go with it. Introductory thoughts from you guys first, though. [00:01:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm tremendously excited just because it's hard to say, but like when we're 200 and whatever, three episodes in now, having an episode where we haven't really ever touched, that we haven't ever really hit around before before is cool. And to my knowledge, we have not talked about the Santa Claus thing at all other than the Think Fast that we did last week that was like 12 minutes long and we didn't really get to hit on. So I'm excited for this. I would encourage anybody who's watching live. I know it's nine o' clock in the morning on a work day, so if you're not able to, no worries. But if you're able to tune in and then comment, let us know your thoughts as we kind of go throughout the episode. I don't Want to speak for these guys. We'll try to respond as we go. But I guess my introductory thoughts would be, I. Just to get it out there, my family, me and my wife, we. We do Santa. We don't do it as big as other people do it, but we are certainly. I'm certainly not in the camp that it's wrong or anything like that. And I'm looking forward to the discussion. I guess what I would say is I want to encourage everybody. Let's have the discussion. Let's talk about it. I think if you're a family that does not do Santa, no problem. Like some of my closest friends don't do Santa, no worries. Like, that's, It's. That's for each family to decide, each set of parents to decide. I also think, though, if you choose to do Santa, no problem, you know, and so that's where I think we disagree with some folks who are kind of up in arms, you know, basically quoting Revelation 21:8 to the. To the parents that. To the parents that do teach their kids about Santa Claus. And so that's where I would differ. But, but I want to encourage everybody, like, hey, let's have a great discussion. Let's talk about the arguments against it, talk about the arguments for it, maybe the reasons why the arguments against it aren't great, and just have a good discussion. That's where I think deeper shines, in my opinion, is we're going to talk about this thing that very rarely. I shouldn't say very rarely, but sometimes we'll hit on a topic that's like, man, there is a lot of. Got a lot of steam, right? As Jack said, a lot of comments about this, a lot of strong feelings on either side. And so. But again, just to start, like, I know there are a lot of people that listen that are anti Santa. No worries. And a lot of people listen that are very pro Santa. Sounds great. Let's. Let's kind of hash that out and discuss it on this podcast. Joe, what introductory thoughts do you have? [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say it's a nuanced thing. A lot of the comments we've seen are very dogmatic and very condemning and judgmental. And there's always a place to condemn. There's always a place for judgment. In this instance, in my opinion, this is not one of them. Yeah, there you can take it too far on either side, in my opinion. And so it's just a nuanced discussion. So, as you said, Will, this is more than anything, us putting our thoughts out there. Yes, we do. Santa as well. That already puts us seemingly in the minority. I think it's in the majority, but we are in the silent majority, the minority. [00:04:25] Speaker B: And my. [00:04:26] Speaker C: We're in the local minority, right? [00:04:27] Speaker A: Yes. You know, the, the vocal minority is very vocal about their disdain for this. And so, yeah, we want to parse out what is a lie. Can you ever lie? Kind of defining what that looks like and versus the fairy tales, versus the, you know, attachment. We want to get into some of those things. But where I really wanted to start first and Jack, I'm going to send it back to you, is just a brief history of St. Nick himself, of Santa Claus, how we got there. There's a lot of people that believe it is pagan, pagan roots. So I think we got one of those comments on YouTube and I've seen that floating around that this is a, it's a pagan origin and we have no right or no business as Christians to even entertain something like that. But there's also some history going back to St. Nicholas. And so I don't know if you have that pulled up with you right there, but I want you to get into that just to kind of kick the episode off as to how did we even get to this place? Coca Cola played a big role, of course, early 1900s and such. So Coca Cola has kind of modernized Santa and brought it about. But this has been going on for hundreds of years. So where do you want to start on that? [00:05:28] Speaker B: Yeah, so again, St. Nicholas was a real person, a Greek bishop in Turkey and he operated in the early three hundreds and he was famous for his generosity of leaving gifts for people of kind of going around and house to house. And there's. It's kind of unclear about the socks, stockings, shoes or whatever he. But he would leave a gift for people is part of the mythology there. And so again, we're talking about 1700 year old history. And so everything is. We know he was a real person, we know he gave gifts, he was known for that and admired for that. And so that kind of started the. He's the, the one who generated, who all the myths kind of are based on. And he is called the patron saint. And of course this is a more of a Catholic thing with the patron saint of children, sailors and the poor. So especially the, the patron saint of children. You can see how that has been brought through into modern day. And then the mythology around him, that of him kind of existing after his own death went on. The Dutch called him Sinterklaas, which is short for St. Nicholas and again, a gift giving kind of person. And that even though the sainthood thing was kind of dropped after the Reformation, that was continued. Sinterklaas and Father Christmas in England and different cultures kind of started. And this is an interesting thing that around Europe, different people groups all included him in some way, kind of had his. The mythology of a gift giving kind figure. And then it was in the 1800s that the modern, especially Americanized version of Santa Claus came around. There's a credit given to a poem by Clement Clarke Moore called a visit from St. Nicholas. And he's a jolly elf like figure. [00:07:26] Speaker C: The sleigh, the reindeer, around 1820, 1823 or something like that. [00:07:30] Speaker B: I think 1822 is when that poem was. Was put out. And yeah, that kind of developed a lot of the modern mythology that we have. And then Coca Cola, oddly enough is given the credit for like kind of finishing off the picture of Santa Claus. The red suit and the rosy cheeks and the big white bearded guy and all that that we know him as today. And, and that was really only in the last hundred years. But it's one of those that, where the idea of a gift giving kind figure goes back 1700 years. The modern development, the picture of Santa Claus we have is more recent, but the tradition has been there and as far back as like, it's very hard to trace, like when people were telling their kids, hey, this guy's gonna come and leave you presents. And again, they're not talking about the original St. Nicholas, but kind of the continuing idea of him, this ongoing eternal being, you know, person that comes every year that goes back a long ways. And again, it crosses cultures. It is something that has a lot of history. And it again, there's been a lot of people who have not celebrated it, who had problems with it before, but it seems like only very recently has it been like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is, this is all a lie. There is no, you know, and so that, that kind of brings us to today, I guess. [00:08:51] Speaker C: Why do you think that is? So obviously there's the big debate in Christian circles around should you celebrate Christmas at all? Right? And kind of setting Santa aside that Jesus is, you know, the world celebrating Jesus birth, even though he most likely was not born on December 25th. The, you know, Christmas trees are pagan. You know, kind of that side of the Christmas debate that I do feel like it's been around a while, like as long as I can remember, man, people have been arguing about that, you know, should, should the, should churches do Christmas events? Type of thing. Right. Should you say Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday, stuff like that? The Santa thing, though. I also. And maybe it's purely anecdotal, I'm not very old, I feel like has kind of surfaced recently as far as the significant debate, significant online discussion, obviously online discussions themselves have, you know, kind of just exploded really since COVID of people just having these, these back and forths online. And so maybe that's part of it. But I am curious briefly as we kind of get into and I don't know how we want to do it, if we kind of want to all share where we stand. I've got a list on my notes of like the biggest arguments against it. Want to go one by one. If we want to hit, obviously we're going to need to hit the Bible's teaching on lying and stuff like that. But why do you guys think that is as we get started? Why? Recently it seems to have come into the zeitgeist, if you will, the cultural zeitgeist, a little bit more about Santa himself, the Santa Claus part of Christmas as opposed to the Jesus birth debate that normally takes place around Christmas. [00:10:16] Speaker A: I mean, I have my thoughts that are rooted mainly and I got into this on the. The deep end. That and I think I saw somebody comment on YouTube back to this, disagreeing with this point. [00:10:27] Speaker B: The. Think fast. I think. [00:10:28] Speaker A: I think fast. Sorry, not deep in. Think fast. There's no space for kids anymore and everything is either hyper literal or there's what we call parentification, where kids have to be adults and we don't treat them as kids and we don't foster a childlike environment. So the idea of like my wife is into Waldorf education. There are some really bizarre things in Waldorf. We don't subscribe to every last thing. On the other hand, the concepts of Waldorf are that you really try to foster imagination as much as possible and allow the kid to stay in a childlike state while he can, you know, and so they take it by years of seven years and such. I'm not going to go into all of that. But the concept is you want the kid to be able to be a kid and to come up into adulthood having fully experienced a childhood. We don't do that these days. We don't do that these days. We, we want kids to because we stick an iPad in there in front of them at 2 years old. And because they're, you know, coming face to face with news, like big news events. And then if they go to school, even if they're homeschooled. Like they're learning about news and learning about the world events and learning about the problems of today, like way early. I remember my buddy teaches, I think six year olds and they had a full unit on environmentalism and making sure the oceans stay clean. And so kids were like freaking out about all the plastic in the ocean. [00:11:44] Speaker C: At 6 years old. [00:11:45] Speaker A: 5. 6 years old, are you kidding me? But hey, that's part of the curriculum. That's what we're supposed to do. So we've taken the beautiful picture of life of like, man, this is a great place, you're gonna love it here, type of thing. And it's like, hey, let me tell you about crony, crony capitalism and let me tell you about environmentalism and all the problems here. Like, kids don't need that. [00:12:05] Speaker C: And yet we are kids anymore is what you're saying. [00:12:08] Speaker A: That's really what it comes down to. Kids can't be kids. And to me I think that plays a massive role. You're lying to your kids. And wow, could you even imagine? It's like, I want my kid to feel like there's really good magic in the world where people can make a difference and where gifts sometimes take place and things like that. Yes, he's going to learn that from God. But I don't see how we can't also keep this with Santa as well. So that's my initial thought on that. [00:12:34] Speaker B: I'll give you the other side of that because I, I subscribe to that ideology. But somebody's gonna say, well, it doesn't really matter about imagination if you're lying. You can't lie to create this world or whatever the case may be. They're gonna say something like that. So we. And they're gonna bring up the verses on lying. Obviously, lying lips is an abomination to the Lord. Proverbs 12, Ephesians and Colossians as their, their parallel passages. Colossians 3, 9, Ephesians 4, 25. One says, do not lie to one another. The other says, putting away lying. Speak truth with your neighbor. For we're members of one another. Of course, John 8, 44. The devil is the father of lies. You mentioned Revelation 21:8 and of course the Ten Commandments. You shall not bear false witness. So there's gonna be a lot of those. And somebody's gonna say, hey, the, you're, you're lying to your kid. You're being dishonest. And we're, we ask you because, hey. And again, sorry, if you're listening in the car with your kids and you're somebody who does play Santa Claus. Turn it down here for a second. They're going to say Santa's not real. He's not. This is not a real human being. And so therefore it's a dishonest statement. And so, and with the think fast, as I mentioned at the start, this is something we didn't really wrestle with this, this argumentation. So sure, let's answer that before we get into the value of imagination and all that. [00:13:55] Speaker C: Yeah, so I got a lot of thoughts on the accusation of it being lying. I think there is a. And maybe I'll get to it later. I do think there's a lot stronger of an argument as to why maybe it's not a great idea to do Santa Claus with your kids. And this one is not. This is not it, I guess is my point here. And so the first question I would have is, is playing along with fictional things equivalent to lying? And I know you can say like that, you know, well, that's different than you planting the, the idea in your kid's head versus playing along with something. Purely from my experience, there was never a point in time where we sat our kids down and said, all right guys, here's the story about Santa Claus. There's a big, there's a guy in a big red suit comes down the chimney. No, like they just pick it up from the culture. They pick it up from when the Polar Express is on or they pick it up from books that they say, oh, who's this guy? Oh, that's Santa Claus. And so I do disagree a little bit with the people that would kind of present it as if you are sitting them down and like feeding them this lie. To me it's more equivalent to you are playing along with something that is fictional. Is that wrong? [00:15:01] Speaker A: There are some people who do not to cut you off. There are some, you know, and so to give that credence for a second. Sure. If you are your 9 year old comes and asks you is Santa real? And you're like absolutely. And you continue it. Yeah, I think we'd have more of a problem with that if the kids really kind of coming out of it. But I agree with you about the culture point not to cut you off. Sorry. [00:15:19] Speaker C: Because think about how much of kids lives revolve around fiction. My 4 year old loves Spider Man. Thinks he's never seen a Spider man movie in his life, but thinks he's Spider Man. Is it my job to say, well son, you're actually not Spider man, like, you're actually not shooting webs at me? Like, no. What do I do? I play along with him, right? I pretend that I got, you know, wrapped up by a web and that he, you know, all those things. And so that's the first side of this, is that I think it's a bit of a dramatization to basically equate it with somebody who cheats on their taxes. And that bothers me a little bit, is to, you know, well, it's lying, so therefore it's wrong. So again, the fact that playing along with your kids about the fictional magic of Santa Claus is equivalent to somebody who lies to pay less in taxes, I just fundamentally disagree with that. And I think most, that's the thing is, I think most people also would not equate those two. And if you really force them to, it's like, so it's like you don't actually believe it's a lie. Because the other thing that I'll say. And then, Joe, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the lying thing because I've read a lot of takes like it's a lie. Liars, you know, Bible condemns lying. Okay, so where then is the call for repentance for all the parents who do? Where is the Matthew 18 coming out? Where is the, hey, this is wrong, you know, if it's, if it's as cut and dry as people are making it out to be, that it's clearly a lie, therefore it's wrong. Where's the. Again, Matthew 18. I'm going to approach you and say that you're in sin. Where's the going before the churches? Where's the condemnation of the churches that do breakfast with. Or cookies with Santa on a random Saturday morning in December? Nobody's doing that. And so that's why my kind of take on it is that the people who say that it's lying and therefore it's wrong because lying is a sin, they don't. They're not willing to go all the way with that take. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. If I'm going to come out and strongly say it's a lie, therefore it's wrong. But hey, I'm not going to condemn, you know, I'm not going to Matthew 18 this thing. I'm not going to talk to you about it. I'm not going to go before the elders. I'm not going to really raise that much up in arms about again, a cookies with Santa thing. If you're going to do that if you're going to be on the Revelation 21:8, liars go to hell. Therefore, if you tell your kids about Santa Claus, it's a lie. You can't really do it halfway would be one of my kind of angles to this that I don't feel like many people are addressing. But, Joe, I just talked for a long time. What thoughts do you have on the whole lying aspect? [00:17:39] Speaker B: Hey, folks, we've told you before about the A Closer Walk with the devotional series that Joe and I have been putting together. Each volume contains 90 devotionals, and now we're excited to announce the fourth volume has been released. And so this will get you through, essentially a year's worth of devotionals, 360 devotionals if you buy the four pack available at Focus Press. They just start in Genesis 1 with volume 1, and keep working through the text. Volume 4 goes all the way up to. To David's sin with Bathsheba. And so we're just gonna keep those coming, keep working through the Bible's text. And if you're looking for a devotional for your new year, be sure to check out A Closer Walk With Thee, volumes one through four. [00:18:17] Speaker A: So Jack has mentioned this before, and you probably speak better to this. All lying is not created equal. There is such thing as righteous deception in the Bible. You see the midwives going back to the beginning of Exodus, who are blessed because they're lying. You see Rahab, who lies about the spies. You know, she's blessed for that. Her family is saved because she lies. There's a righteous deception. People don't like to wrestle with those things. It's uncomfortable. It's part of scripture that, yes, there were lies that were told, that actually Abram. [00:18:51] Speaker C: Abram is rewarded for lying about his wife. [00:18:53] Speaker A: He's rewarded for it. So we could look at it. And I've never understood it. I was like, man, that's so wrong. I think God sees things differently than we do, more than we'd even like to admit, especially when it comes to those things. So I think we can start right off the bat and say there are biblical precedents for there being times where deception is not seen as a ticket to hell. It's seen as a positive thing. Now, in each of those instances, I think it was to benefit somebody else, you know, not. Not themselves. I think it was to benefit, well, Abram. That's true. That's not true. He was mainly to benefit himself. Save his own skin. Rahab saves her family, you know, gets her family out. Obviously, the Midwives are saving Hebrew babies. And so there's, there's benefit there. But there is an element, I think within scripture that is very strong of if it's done for the right reasons. Righteous deception doesn't need to be the first thing we're pulling out all the time. But there's something there on a basic level. Jack, you talked about, you know, your son Robbie tackling you. Robbie can't actually tackle you. You know, he's five years old. No, he's not tackling you play along, you get it. And so people might look at it and go, well, there's a difference between pretend and lying to your kid. Okay, so if your kid scrapes his knee and you go, you're tough. Is my kid tough? No, not at that point. Like he's not tough. It's gonna be alright. Well, I don't know that it's gonna be alright. That might be a lie. You know the things that we tell ourselves. Oh, it's not that bad. No, it actually is pretty bad. I mean, those are the. In him scraping his knee. I just told him three lies to try to help him get through and to give him the courage to get through the situation. All three of those are bald faced lies. So what I should tell the kid is actually. That's horrible. [00:20:19] Speaker B: In. [00:20:20] Speaker A: I don't know how that's gonna turn out, dude. I mean, it could be really, really bad. It's like at the end of the day. Yes. How many parents tell him that? But it's, it's to serve him in a better way. [00:20:29] Speaker C: How many parents tell their kids, you know, is this when they're eating a burger? Is this the same as the cow? We saw that. No, no, it's different. It's not the same as the, the animals on the farm. Right? To protect them from the thought that they're eating a chicken or something. Right? Or, you know, telling your kid, man, you're the best painter in the world. No, he's not. Or she. Objectively, they're not. And yet we tell kids these things. Is it? And by the technical definition, what are those? Those are lies. Technically, my kid is not the best artist in the world. He's not the fastest kid in the world. You know, to Jack's point, he can't. You're not, you know, Jackson all the time, you know, dad, I'm stronger than you. No, son, you're actually not stronger than me. Like, you know, that's. By technical definition that would. It's lying if you agree with that. And so that's why I'm saying I do think there is a difference in the person who. Again, the Revelation 21:8, lying and going along with kids and the magic of Santa. But Jack, you've been kind of quiet on this one, so I do want to hear from you. But just to add to some of your examples there, Joe, of like everyday instances where parents pretty regularly lie to. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Their kids, I think it would be very funny if somebody lived perfectly consistently by this correct. Never do anything. I mean, just this morning you mentioned my son tackling me. Just this morning my little girl high fives me. Oh, oh, you got me good. She's three years old. And can you imagine, you know, my wife or somebody else, you know, one of you guys comes over like, oh, come on, Sarah's high five didn't hurt. And she does. You're like, yeah, that doesn't hurt at all. She's not strong. Why are you lying to this child? Like, do people genuinely live like that? Like, because. And to Will point, no, they don't. [00:22:00] Speaker C: Is the answer right? [00:22:01] Speaker B: And to Will's point, okay, we've established that some. Is it true that she hurt my hand? No. So if somebody's okay with me doing that, we've established that sometimes it's okay to say something that's not technically true to a kid. Now that we've established that, we're just developing the spectrum for when that's okay and when it's not okay. [00:22:18] Speaker A: That's it. [00:22:19] Speaker B: And I think on the Santa spectrum, there are degrees to which parents go to that are not okay. I think it is overdone. And we're getting to that here in a minute. And I will agree with people where they're like, that is way too much. You're putting ideas in kids heads that don't need to be there and all that. I agree with that. On the other hand, I think there's another side of the spectrum. It's like, hey, we're going to have a good time. You're going to believe that there's goodness in this world, that there's gift giving, that there's kindness, and there's that explanation that goes around. And this is kind of what Allison and I have operated by in our home is the one of when a kid gets older and kind of asks straight up, is Santa real? And the dad or the mom, depending on where you read the anecdote, is, you know, says, yeah, Santa's real. But let me tell you, he's real. Basically, as an idea, he's real in that it's the spirit of gift giving that we observe at this time of the year and so expecting nothing in return. Well, and basically, like, now that you know you're also part of Santa, you're. You're in on this too, right? And you're carrying on the spirit of Santa Claus, which really does pay tribute back to St. Nicholas. Like, hey, here's a great gift giving man that we're gonna honor that spirit by doing that for other people. So there's a reality to that. And I think that beautifully harmonizes that. It's not this cold stop, which I think is some of what kind of shocks people. Like, all right, childhood over, imagination's over. Like, no, in a way it's not real. In another way, it's more real than you thought it was. And, and I think that's really beautiful. I think that's something that you're taking from the childlike imagination and, and bringing it into where. And I appreciate that as an adult. You know, I love the idea of Santa as an adult for that reason, knowing there's not a guy living on top of the world with elves and reindeer, but knowing, hey, this general spirit in which parents give gifts to their kids and friends, share things among each other and this season of giving and the beauty of Christmas and all that, that still exists, even though I know Tim Allen's not up there, you know, get jumping in the sled, right? I mean, like sleigh. Sorry, that's the wrong term, sleigh. The. That to me is, is the really is the right way to look at this is that you can kind of blend both of these things. [00:24:27] Speaker A: I really like that. I really like that because you know me in rites of passage, I think there's a rite of passage to becoming part of Santa Claus, you know, becoming part of the gift giver. And specifically it's the gift giving again with expecting nothing in return. Nobody knows where it's coming from. Like, there's a powerful thought in that, where not everything is hyper literal of you have to, you know, you have to, basically. And I know a lot of parents aren't saying you have to thank me, but I love the idea, and I said this on. Think fast. Like, I love the idea of not having to be thanked of giving. Getting to give gifts from a purely, you know, backside for like the, the backside of things perspective where they don't know. It's kind of behind the curtain type of thing. Like you're getting gifts and there's a warmth to that. There's a. I Don't know. There's such a good positive element to that that now you get to be a part of that as you grow up. And again, Harrison's going to. He's already seven. He's going to be within probably the next year or two. He's going to know. And so I think there's that. The other aspect of this. I was talking about this with you guys off air. I think lying about Santa is the same as calling spanking, hitting. Is it technically hitting your kid in the technical sense? [00:25:36] Speaker C: By definition, yes. [00:25:37] Speaker A: By definition, it is hitting your kid. Is there a massive difference between spanking your kid and hitting your kid? Yes. Yes. The Bible calls us spare the rod, spoil the child type of thing. Like the Bible calls us to spank our child. That's not exactly. [00:25:52] Speaker B: Somebody's gonna be, you know, throwing the. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, hold on. That's not exactly it. [00:25:56] Speaker B: But on the other hand, yes, the. [00:25:58] Speaker A: Sparing the rod, hating the child. So it does talk about discipline. It does talk about corporal punishment, striking. [00:26:05] Speaker C: Your brother, which is wrong, and so are those conflicts. [00:26:07] Speaker A: So it's got both sides of it recognizing there's a massive difference. There are both technically hitting. Yes. Can you do spanking? Is there time where spanking is taken too far? Absolutely. Absolutely. On the other hand, that doesn't make all spanking wrong. Are there times where Santa goes too far? Absolutely. Does that make Santa wrong? No, I don't think so. Not across the board. I do want to. I don't know if you guys have thoughts on that. I wanted to come back around Jack, to yours. Feel free to speak to that. But I want you to circle back around on when it is too far, because people may be like, okay, where's the line? But Will. [00:26:39] Speaker C: Well, I'm happy to jump into that. And then, Jack, if you want to, you know, kind of come in after and back cleanup on that. But, Joe, just briefly, I do. I really like the. The spanking analogy because, again, by technical definition, yeah, you're hitting your kid. You are striking your child. And there are a lot of people saying similar vein. You know, you should never lie to your kids. You should never hit your kids. Most conservative people in the church disagree with the spanking one. But if you're going by the technical definition, that's what it is as far as. And so I guess the last thing I'll say on the lie thing is, again, if you are going to. If your reason for why you shouldn't do Santa is because it's a lie, therefore it's wrong, and Sinful again. Are Christian parents going to burn in the lake of fire because they are not repenting and teaching their kids about Santa? I just don't think anybody's willing to go that far. And if you are, maybe that's a different conversation we need to have. As far as where it goes too far. And Jack, I'm curious kind of where you think goes too far. What I don't love is the. And this is where me and Rachel really try to steer clear of almost like equ. Not quite equating him, but putting him on the same level as God. He's all, all seeing, he's all knowing, he's always watching. When a kid hits their sibling, I would much rather the parents say that, you know, God is watching and God is unhappy than Santa Claus is watching and Santa Claus is unhappy. Does that make sense? [00:28:01] Speaker A: I disagree. [00:28:02] Speaker C: And we'll get to him later about the whole like well when your kid finds out that Santa's not real, they're gonna question their belief in God too. I know, it happens. I think that's a pretty, pretty ridiculous argument. But what I'm talking about is like pushing your kids, trying to regulate your kids behavior based on Santa Claus as opposed to based on, you know, God in the Bible. Like if Jackson hits his sister, I, my personal belief is that I need to go to him and say Jackson, God does not want us to hit. That's wrong. You know, let's pray about it instead of alright, Santa's not gonna bring you any gifts because you did that. Santa's always watching like that to me is where I do think it goes a little bit too far. But that's where I can differentiate between celebrating and enjoying the magic of Santa versus using Santa to regulate my kids behavior. Does that make sense? There's obviously other ways that can go too far as well. But that's the main one that comes to mind to me and honestly the strongest argument where if some, if a Christian parent says hey, I don't want to do Santa for that reason, I totally understand. Like you don't necessarily want your kids to do the right thing just because they think they're gonna get gifts under the tree or just because they think a big guy in a red suit is watching them. I'd rather my kid do the right thing because they love God. They, you know, they feel sorry for what they did because they know God's unhappy. Like that's what I want for my kids. And so the regulating of kids behavior based on Santa Claus is the length to Which I'm not willing to go. But Jack, I'm curious kind of where you fall on that. [00:29:22] Speaker B: It's funny because that really I know there's the naughty and nice list, but that almost all comes down to the one line. And Santa Claus is coming to town, right? He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. You got a couple things there. One, you've given him godlike qualities. He's omnipresent. That's not good. So I don't love the song for that. But also he knows that again, behavior manipulation based on it. And most people aren't familiar with this, but Joe and I it's a big part of our family's traditions rotation during the Christmas season is the Killers. The rock group for a number of years there did a Christmas single every single year. And a couple of them were some of the prettiest, most like impactful. My favorite Christmas song was one of theirs. Some of the other years they're a little more silly on it and they very much took the Santa as a vindictive, harsh judge thing. And they're very funny songs singing it from that perspective. But that is kind of in there of like, man, if I get on Santa's bad side, I got a problem. One of the songs is called Don't Shoot me Santa Claus. And so they're pretty funny but they really kind of highlight the man. Santa can kind of be a jerk if you're on the wrong side of it and you can kind of take it to works based salvation of God waiting to strike you down and you do enough bad and you're on God's bad side or on Santa's bad side. Christmas is like a judgment day and like the Calvin and Hobbes thing where he wakes up to presents and said ah, you know, full acquittal or something like that. Like, you know, free got free on all charges. But that really is a messed up idea to put into kids heads. In fact, I remember one shout out to mama. I don't know if she'll like this as a good story or as a bad story. I look at it as a good parenting story. I was acting up one December and I don't know if it was even Santa, but it was basically like, hey, you got a bunch of gifts coming and they can all go back to the store. And she came to me later that day and was like, I don't give you gifts because you Behave good. I give you gifts, you know, because you're my son and I love you. That is when Christmas is held over a four year old's head like that, that's not good. And so shout out to my mom for getting that right. That really goes wrong in a lot of ways. And you can kind of get that vindictive Santa attitude. That's not healthy, that's not helpful. [00:31:37] Speaker C: So I like that idea, Jack. And shout out to your mom, love your mom. I like that story as well. On the other hand though, I do feel like the people who overblow that are also ignoring the fact how many times you tell your kids, hey, clean your plate and you'll get a dessert. Obviously a lot smaller of a scale or you know, you'll get to stay up a little bit later if you're like punishing based on actions. Does that make sense? And so I do think there is a time and a place, you know, where like, you know, I let my, if I let my kids do something, it's like, well, I did it because. Because I love you. [00:32:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:08] Speaker C: But also because you behaved well today. Therefore, you know you're going to get a reward. Right. Or you did not behave, you hit your sister. To go back to the analogy, you hit your brother. So you get to go to bed early or you don't get to have dessert or whatever it is. Right. And so that's where I do feel like it's a little bit, you know, I don't love the, the works based salvation argument if it's taken to the full extent because like we do that with kids all the time. Like behave. There is a little reward essentially. [00:32:34] Speaker B: I see your point there. The little difference on this is it's kind of the year end culmination of everything. Like this is the biggest day of the year for kids and it's an idle threat because what kid has ever gotten a lump of coal? [00:32:46] Speaker A: For sure. [00:32:46] Speaker B: What parent is what, you know, has Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah. As a six year old is, you know, because there's that joke about like, if you want your kids to behave, well, wrap a bunch of your trash up in, in boxes and every time they get in trouble, take it and throw it in the fireplace. You know, I think it's hilarious. Nobody's gonna do that and I hope not. And so the idle threat thing I don't think is good either because what kid, again, if a kid has never had that, because like you do send your kid to bed without dessert, you do, you know, like not give them the extra playtime or whatever the case may be. This is just kind of. It's very manipulative in that. [00:33:21] Speaker A: No, I agree. [00:33:22] Speaker C: I guess my problem with it would be the people that say, well, I don't want my kids thinking they get good things just because of the way they act. It's like they kind of do in other areas of life. As to your point, like it's the end of the year, I'm never going to return their Christmas gifts or something. I just, I don't think it's fully consistent. When you know somebody. That's the main reason why they don't is, I guess, you know what I would say. [00:33:42] Speaker A: I mean, this is real world. Harrison came to me the other day and it's like, am I on the naughty list? Am I on the. Like he was kind of crying, like, absolutely not too. [00:33:49] Speaker C: He said he wasn't going to get any gifts because he hit his sister. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Which again, I'm not. I certainly don't push that. I told him he's not on the naughty list. But if it gets him thinking about like, yeah, I probably need to be a nice kid. My behavior. Their behavior. Yes, my behavior. There are better ways to do it. I'm not going to hold it. [00:34:05] Speaker B: As you said earlier, like, you do it because God wants you to. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Correct. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Santa has got some nice stuff for you. [00:34:09] Speaker A: And that's what I told him. You know, we got. It was a good discussion, but it sparked a very interesting discussion of what is the naughty list, who's on it, that type of thing. And like, technically, you know, it kind of sparked a gospel conversation of we're all on the naughty list. But you know, luckily there's grace and things like that and I love you. And so we, we got past it. But this is real world for sure that we have to answer some of these questions and that the kids are going to be there. [00:34:31] Speaker B: We're all on the naughty list is like the message version of Romans 3. [00:34:38] Speaker A: For we've all been on the naughty list and fall short of the glory of God. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's an element to that, but that also speaks to a lot of where a lot of people have the problems is, you know, they look at it as a workspace, salvation going to that point and that it is antithetical to the gospel that you have a God that you're pushing works based salvation to your kids. There's a legitimacy to go along with this point. Just kind of cap the point you guys are making. There is a legitimacy to that, that we can very much make it workspace. And I'm not interested in that at all. My kid needs to know you're getting good gifts because we love you. And, you know, Santa's absolutely bringing you gifts. My kids will figure it out. But this also goes to, you know, this idea going back to the lying into this whole thing. Let's also contextualize this and realize this is one month out of the year. And sometimes it's like three weeks out of the year where you're watching Christmas movies, listening to the music and getting up to that point. This is not a lie. That in July I'm like, hey, Santa's real. Santa's coming. It's a very short season of time. And so these people that act like your kid's gonna melt down and you lied to them and it's gonna, like, change the course of their life. Because literally I can count on my hands and toes the number of weeks that Harrison's going to have in his life before he figures it out. Probably, you know, I mean, at this point, he's sitting at probably somewhere that's not true. The fingers and toes. It's close. He's probably somewhere around 30 weeks of his entire life right now where he's actually had any emphasis on Santa at all. The idea that this is going to shake his foundation because the parents lied to him and because the works based salvation and things like that, not likely. As opposed to me going over gospel stuff. I try to as much as possible, you know, maybe not every day, but we try to hit that. Right. That's way different. The people that like to equate these things of, again, the lying or the you're bringing him in the place of Christ for three weeks of the year. We talk about this guy. It happens to be a line in one song. We talked about it and we're done with it. Let's not overblow this and act like my kid's about to have a crisis in faith because he had to come and ask if he's on the naughty list. One time out of the year. 365 days. It's a bit much. [00:36:35] Speaker B: Hey, folks, I want to tell you guys about this week's book from our sponsor, Cobb Publishing. 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Available at Cobb publishing.com Cobb publishing.com Amazon and many other online bookstores. [00:37:37] Speaker C: So I do want to get into that because that's another really big angle that people, you know, arguments against Santa is because it will cause kids to mistrust their parents and then look back and look at them negatively for lying to them. Some of the phrases that I've seen about this break their hearts, crush their soul. They're going to have a basically an existential crisis, emotional meltdown, betray their trust, Betray their trust. I don't mean to be, you know, harsh sounding, cynical at all. I'm sure there are kids out there who, it was a really rough two days when they found out that Santa was not real. I just find that to be the most overblown excuse in the world. Like, I guess where I'm at is if your kid has an emotional meltdown when they find out that Santa's not real, you've probably taken a few other missteps as, as, as a parent, and I'm not trying to cast aspersions, but I know from my experience when I found out Santa wasn't real at 8 or however old I was, I was like, okay, you know, that's cool. I still get, you know, there's still gifts, it's still magic of Christmas. Like that didn't even cross my mind. Because the other thing about this is I read a Facebook comment on a post about this about how essentially parents are manipulative when they do this and it's self serving was the phrase that was used. And I just have to ask, like, why is there such a cynical view towards parents about this? You know, as far as the kid who looks back at age 23 and just looks very negatively on their parents for lying to them. Like, why is that? Why is there such a cynicism towards that? For me, when I found out, you know, again at 8, 9 years old, and even now looking back, I don't resent my parents for that. I don't look at them and Say man, they sure were malicious in the way that they played along with Santa Claus. I look at them and say man, that's nice of them. The fact that they allowed me to believe that. The fact that also they weren't just taking credit for all the gifts. Because you hear people say that like I don't want Santa taking credit for the gifts that I purchased. Like that's to me a little more problematic than this. But like, you know, I don't understand why there's such a cynical view towards parents about this. Like when you look back and say, okay, sure, you know, Santa wasn't real. My parents made me believe that it was. I look at that as a positive thing in a fond way and I don't understand why. There's again just the dramatic language. I don't like to use this as a pejorative. It's a snowflake response to say that your kids hearts are going to be crushed and their souls are going to be broken and all those things. I just don't buy that whatsoever. Like I just feel like it's a over dramatized. It's not that deep. You're reading too much Internet response to something that didn't even cross my mind when I found out that, I mean, so maybe that's too much. Again, too much. Too many anecdotal pieces there. But Jack looks to give a thought. [00:40:08] Speaker B: I do see some validity in the parents making it about themselves or doing it for their own pleasure. And this is one of my, on my list of like things where it can go too far is if the kid starts figuring it out. Accept that. Yeah. Like don't. [00:40:21] Speaker C: Sure. [00:40:21] Speaker B: Like if they're asking questions. Nope, nope. It's real. It's real, it's real. Like if the kid knows and you're still doing it, that is where it becomes lying. And not just imagination, like their, their imagination has kind of outgrown it. You need to accept that. And one of the studies I read said that a lot. A number of the kids that they interviewed kind of as they grew out of it, said they felt an obligation or a pressure to keep pretending they believed it so it didn't hurt their parents feelings. That really has been an issue especially in recent generations is the vicarious parenting. That's why we have participation trophies is parents wanted to see their kids, you know, get something great and you know, say they had an accomplishment that they didn't get and they didn't. They couldn't stand to see their kids sad. That's why we have Safe space spaces because parents just couldn't stand to see their kid do this. You see the, the kind of, the cool parent thing that's a vicarious thing. I think the, the Santa Claus thing is the vicarious like well, I just want them to hang on to it longer. It is about me rather than the kid. Like if it's kid centric and hey, I'm going to let them have their imagination and let them, I'm going to give them some magic and then when they start out growing the magic, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll concede that. But if you really are doubling down that to me is where a kid when they hit like 9 or 10 years old and the parent is still like nope, nope, nope. [00:41:34] Speaker C: Do you think that's, that would be dishonest? [00:41:36] Speaker B: I don't think it's most but I do and I don't think it's most in these cases that, that feel this way. But where somebody does it's like well, I wonder how, what their parents did. I wonder if their parents really. Because again what you, you end up with is the kid having to carry the parents burden for them that the, the parent, the parent is sadder about the kid stopping believing in Santa Claus than the kid is about the parent. And so there's, you know. Yeah, and, and so I think that, and I don't think that happens often but I think when we talk about where it can go too far, that would be a case of it going too far. [00:42:08] Speaker C: It can definitely go too far there. [00:42:09] Speaker A: And that's where the, you know, it turns around to parentification again where the kid has to start managing the parents emotions and you know, showing up for the parent, which is ridiculous, clearly wrong. Will you sent an article, I think it's Psychology Today article where the woman made the case like seven to nine years old right in there shout out once again. Rudolf Steiner of Waldorf saying seasons of seven kids will come into a different from seven to you know, 1 to 7, 7 to 14. Like things start to change in a kid's life around that time. So most kids, 7, 8, 9, they're going to start figuring it out, asking questions of the world. It's a natural beautiful process for a kid to start understanding how the world works all in time. The kid needs to be able to be a true kid before and believe and make believe slowly come out of it. And again, as I said earlier, almost a rite of passage in learning about Santa and realizing okay, the wonders of childhood are starting to kind of Leave us behind. But that assumes there is wonders of childhood to leave behind. If we are dogmatic about these things, hyper literal about these things, where's the wonder of childhood? I'm not saying you have to lie to your kid to create the wonder of childhood. On the other hand, being either hyper literal about it or not allowing for any of the fun, the imagination, the wonder, things like that, you can get into attachment. People are going to make cases on both sides of it. I really do think the major problems in our life and again, the culture hating kids has mainly taken place in a culture that has despised Santa Claus in the last decade or so, where this has really come up. It's like, let's see, let's take a, you know, kind of stick to where do the winds blow? Well, the winds are blowing toward a very negative direction of kids spaces. And everything else are getting kicked out. [00:43:40] Speaker C: That's kids learning about sex at five years old. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Correct. [00:43:43] Speaker A: And environmentalism and all these things. And this happens to be with the rise of. You're lying to your kid about Santa Claus. Like, yeah, but you're not gonna lie to your kid about the economy. You're not gonna lie to your kid about the like. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Well, I mean, to go back to bring an earlier point, my daughter is not gonna be devastated when she finds out her high fives don't hurt me. Because I'm not like really overdoing that. Like, it's gonna be like, oh, of course dad was doing that all along. Like, that's kind of how this should be if you play your cards right. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Right. And Will, as you said earlier, the first thing that I thought was my parents double buy gifts because we'd get gifts from them and from Santa. [00:44:14] Speaker C: That's amazing. [00:44:15] Speaker A: That's incredible. Man, you guys are. Thank you so much. And so it was one of like, gratitude would have hit me. [00:44:20] Speaker C: It was gratefulness. [00:44:21] Speaker A: It was gratefulness of, whoa, that's incredible that they would be willing to do this and that I never thanked him. And so I went back and thanked him for all the Santa gifts. And Mom's like, we don't expect that. That's one of the reasons we did it is we don't expect you to have to be thankful for those like, we know you're grateful kids, and we're. [00:44:35] Speaker C: We're glad it's not a malicious act. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Right, right. And so the people that look at it as you're just lying to your kids, it takes level of maliciousness and just this negative bent, this very negative, cynical view of parents when in reality most parents are just trying to keep the wonder alive, just trying to keep their kids happy and give them something to really rally around, around the Christmas season and have that be fun. Let's not overblow this and make these parents out to be Satan themselves. And I know that's a bit overblown but man, you should read some of the comments if you have not. [00:45:06] Speaker C: I think Jack makes a good point about the vicarious living through your kids. And you know, I love Santa's a kid. So let me just keep the charade going for as long as possible. I do think that's a pretty small percentage from what I've seen. I do think most parents, the reason they really enjoy doing Santa Claus with their kids is because it brings their kids joy. And so it's not a self selfish kind of, you know, I want to enjoy it so I'm going to do it for my kids. It's more of a man. I really want my kids to, you know, eyes to light up when they see a Christmas tree or when they see, you know, you know, Santa. We don't, we very rarely let our kids watch any TV whatsoever. Jackson loves the Polar Express. I want him to, you know, I want him to have that joy. Not from some. I could care less about watching the Polar Express. I've seen that movie 100 times, trust me, I don't want to watch that again. I do it for him. Right. And so again Jack, I hear your point. I do agree. I just think that's a pretty small percentage and I just, I just have such a problem with the, the argument that your nine year old is going to be in a depression for three months when they find out the Santa's not real. Like again you've taken some missteps then if that's where, if that's the emotional state of your kid at 9 years old. But let's, unless you have another thought on that, Jack. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to get to Romans 14 and also like dealing with how other people do it and other people's kids. But a couple brief thoughts before that. It's funny, we're pretty open with our kids about yeah he's not real. It's the idea and it's the gift giving and the spirit of it. Robbie, our five year old kind of knows that and yet he's all in on Santa this year. And like not because we're putting it in his head, not any of those things but it's just kind of that, that cultural thing you hear about Santa. You Think about, I wonder what Santa's gonna get me. And I'm not jumping in every time like, well, dude, you know, he's not real. You know that's fake. You know that I'm enjoying letting him kind of just have fun with it, right? [00:46:49] Speaker A: It's a kid driven thing. [00:46:50] Speaker B: It is a kid driven thing. And so like, again, I've already told him and yet he's, he's kind of suspending that belief now, because as a five year old you can do that and that's okay. And I wanted to read this quote from G.K. chesterton. And I thought this was interesting. I was looking back on authors, writers I respected. C.S. lewis, Tolkien and Chesterton, kind of the big three of the 1900s of kind of Christian ish writers. All of them were big Santa guys. Obviously Lewis put him in Narnia. Tolkien published what he would write letters from Father Christmas to his kids. But this Chesterton one I really liked, he wrote an article saying, and this was one of the last things he ever wrote, that I believe in Santa Claus. And he finished it by saying, what do our great modern educationists, our great modern psychologists, our great makers of a new world mean to do about the breach between the imagination and the reason, if only in the passage from the infant to the man? Is the child to live in a world that is entirely fanciful and then suddenly find it is entirely false? Or is the child to be forbidden all forms of fancy, or in other words, forbidden to be a child? Or is he, as we say, to have some harmless borderland of fancy and childhood which is still a part of the land in which he will live inter viventium? In the land of living men, cannot the child pass from a child's natural fancy to a man's normal faith in Holy Nicholas of the children without enduring that bitter break and abrupt disappointment which now marks the passage of a child from a land of make believe to a world of no belief? I love that it captures so much of what we said. It's not this cut off, all right, he's not real now you're an adult. It's, hey, you know, there's a reason behind the imagination, the fanciful thing. There's a spirit here that continues that you, yes, you're becoming an adult, but hang on to some of that magic as a kid. But if you, as he says, if you don't ever let them be a child, they don't have that. And we live in such a materialist world. And I made this point off air as sports Fans, everything is about analytics, everything is about playing the percentages, everything. And you know, as on paper, my favorite hockey team should have won the Stanley cup like the last five years. They haven't. Why not? Because there's intangibles, there's spirit, there's stuff that you cannot quantify. And I think we're this way of like, well, is it real or not? It's not real, therefore it doesn't matter. Their story, myth. There's a reason why we have these things. And the disenchanted world we live in is really unhealthy for us. And I think there's a reason to get back to that. So I did want to get to the other side of it, though, of like, Christians who disagree on this. To me, this is a clear cut Romans 14 issue. Because as Will brought up earlier, which is a point that needs to be made, if you really think people are in sin for doing this, you need to start preaching sermons on it. You need to start calling up church discipline on it. You need to start putting your money where your mouth is. Or if you think, I really don't think that's a good idea, I'm not going to do that in my family. I have a problem with that being done. That sure sounds exactly like what Romans 14 described as half of, you know, the half of that equation. And what are you supposed to do if you're in that situation? Tolerate your brother, realize that he's got to answer to God for his decision. As simple as that. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Again, to go back to why I started the episode the way that I did. Like, I don't. If you don't do Santa Claus, you know, no problem. Just like if you do Santa Claus, no problem. And again, granted that you're not taking it too far in the sense of attributing God's attributes to him and stuff like that. I agree with Jack. Like, this to me is a pretty clearly falls into the Romans 14 category. Thus why I think the biggest problem I have is when people want to just kind of cut and dry, make it well, it's a lie, therefore it's wrong. It's like, okay, then carry that out. Carry that all the way out to Matthew 18 to church discipline. And nobody's willing to do that, which means deep down, you know, it's not exactly the same as the Revelation 21:8 line. And so I think another interesting thing, maybe we can save this for the deep end, because I know we're coming up on our time here is what about the kids that the arguments that, well, they'll question God. Once they find out that Satan, that Santa is not real, they're going to question their belief in God. I think that's a interesting point. I think a lot of people make that point. But Joe, just. And again, we can save that for the deep end if we want to. What are your thoughts on the Romans 14 thing, Joe? [00:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I have thoughts on the other one too. That would be brief and we could save it. But yeah, for the Romans 14. I don't have much more to add for you guys. I really do think this is the perfect example of it, of man. We can be Christians, we can get along. I don't have animosity toward those that don't. Where I get up in arms and you can tell I get spirited about the discussion is I don't like being judged for something that people have been doing for hundreds of years and nobody batted an eye. And all of a sudden we come along and we're ready to condemn certain people. Like, let's pump the brakes on that. You know, let's have a discussion about it and realize that, yeah, you can have your full belief and I can have my full belief. I don't give much credence to the paganism, the Odin. I mean, I did the research. I mean, so many things come from paganism type of thing. Like, there's a lot of things we do in our culture that if we really knew exactly where they came from. [00:51:55] Speaker C: Roots of it. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Right, the roots of it. But it's one of those, which is what Romans 14 talks about. Like, I'm not going to ask. And that's okay if you don't. [00:52:02] Speaker C: That's what I respect. Joe, about your Halloween take. You're not a fan of Halloween and you guys don't do basically anything Halloween related. You also are on a podcast with two guys who not not putting tombstones in their front yard or anything, but, you know, are fine with kids dressing up and getting candy. But that's your stance on it is my family's not going to do it. If your family wants to do it, you know, I'll happily, proudly share why I think it's a bad idea, which again, if you're an anti Santa person, go for it. But when you do, when you step into. Again, like, somebody commented, like, I don't understand how the people who are pro Santa can get around the fact that the Bible says don't lie. Like just in a very snarky, like, dismissive, cut and dry way. Like, man, when you're stepping into that territory is when you've taken it too far from my perspective. And Joe, again, to go back to the Halloween thing, you have your strong reasons why you don't. You're also not going to, you know, get up in arms about, you know, if somebody starts talking about trick or treating at a table beside you. Right. You're not going to lean away and go, well, you know, you probably shouldn't do that because X, Y or Z. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I guess I just don't like worshiping Satan. [00:53:02] Speaker C: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. [00:53:05] Speaker B: So the, the other thing about, you know, well, my kid just goes around telling the other kids, don't be that person at all. Let other. Your kid is not the other kid's parent. You're not the other kid's parent even if you strongly disagree with what the other family is doing. That's, that's pretty messed up. And, and so I don't know, this is one of those. Again, that's why we have Romans 14 is give each other grace on these disagreements and you might disagree strongly with us. Again, you guys have seen, you just mentioned we all disagree pretty strongly on the Halloween thing and it's kind of like, why would he believe that? Well, he does. And so that's just fine. And the other thing is I'm fully fine with healthy debate. I don't believe the answer is you don't believe in telling your kid about Santa. So just shut up. No, make your case. Absolutely make your case. Make it fairly. Don't do the. Well, I guess I just believe in following the Bible. Don't be. [00:53:57] Speaker C: I guess I'm just an anti lying type of person. Like, okay, ask. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Well, you know, why are you, you don't say, oh, so you're okay with lying to your kids? You say, well to me that seems like lying to your kids. Why do you think it's not lying to your kids? And then you can have the discussion from there. Do it charitably. And that's such an important assume and. [00:54:15] Speaker A: A million other issues assume the best. I assume that the brethren that are anti Christmas are trying to get it right, trying to live, live according to their values. Please don't assume that we are Satan loving or pagan loving people or that we just don't care or we haven't put any thought into this. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Like you're just trying to justify what you want to do. [00:54:33] Speaker A: Assume that people are trying to do their best and they have their reasons for why they do it. And even if it's not well thought out you're not the guy that's going to stand in the judgment for them. You know, let people figure it out, make your case. And so I think that's a good place to wrap. I do have thoughts on the Christian part of, you know, God. We'll get to that. Let's, let's push that to the deep end. Fellas, any other thoughts? Merry Christmas, everybody. Truly Merry Christmas. Whether you celebrate with Santa, not Santa doesn't matter. That's right. It's a fantastic time of year to just be with family, to, to enjoy the gift giving to. Yeah, to enjoy family time. And so we really appreciate, appreciate the comment, Jessica or Garrett, whichever one's commenting there. But anyway, yeah, we appreciate everybody listening. And Merry Christmas, everybody. Fellas, any last thoughts? [00:55:18] Speaker B: All right, we'll talk to you guys on the next one. Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.