What Happens When We Die?

[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome back to our 95th episode of the Think Deeper podcast. I'm your co host, Will here. I'm joined, as always, by Jack and Joe Wilkie. Guys, we've got an utterly fascinating episode to get to today. Full disclosure, this was something that we've been talking about for a while. Jack actually taught class on it recently, and I think this is one of those topics that is utterly fascinating to everybody as we're talking about the afterlife and what happens when we die. As we'll get to that in a second, I did want to say a couple of things before we get to that topic. First of all, we mentioned it every week. We try not to say it every single time, but we did want to give a quick shout out to all of our listeners. We appreciate you for listening, for supporting the podcast, for giving us your feedback. That's always a big way to support us is just let us know what your thoughts are, let us know if you have questions. But if you are looking for a way to financially support the show, just go to Focuspress.org Donate. Focuspress.org plus. If you're looking to get something for your donation, of course that would be referring to Focus Plus. As we talked about before, again, we appreciate all of our listeners. We couldn't do it and wouldn't do it without you guys. So thank you very much for supporting us by listening. But if you are looking for a way to financially support us, those will be the two places to go. So that's all I'm going to say on that. Joe, before I hand it over to you to kind of get us into the episode for today, guys, it is episode 95. Episode 100 is coming up very soon, so we have got to get brainstorming on what we're going to do our 100th episode on. First of all, it's crazy to me that we are already almost at 100 episodes. That just absolutely blows my mind. It feels like three months ago that we were getting this thing going, but I'm also feeling a lot of pressure that we need to have an absolute home run smash of an episode for episode 100. I don't know if you guys have any good ideas or anything you want to tease the audience with or hey, maybe we need to be asking you guys as the listeners what we need to do our hundredth episode on, because it cannot just be another average episode. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, people had mentioned, I think Jack put it out there on Facebook and a lot of people said doing an entire episode of Hot Takes, we may have no listeners left. If we did an entire Hot Takes episode, everybody be mad at us in some form. But no, we're brainstorming. We are actively thinking about it. And again, if you have some ideas, let us know because we'd love to knock it out of the park just have a fantastic 100th. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Like you said. [00:02:30] Speaker B: That's a long time, man. I can't believe it's already been 100 episodes. Like coming up on 100 episodes. It's unbelievable. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Well, it started in the first Monday of 2022 and we're already at the end, almost at the end of 2023, so that's crazy. No, I was just going to say, Joe, I think maybe some of your cultural hot takes are what tick me off. So maybe we should delve into some of those. But anyway, that would be fun. Joe, go ahead and get us into though. Sure. The topic for today talking about what happens when we die, the afterlife. Again, something that I think a lot of people have questions about. [00:03:05] Speaker B: So as you said, Jack, he just taught a class on this last Wednesday at our church, did a great job. And there's a lot to this discussion, there's a lot of different takes on it. There's kind of a traditional view of what happens when we die with paradise and Hades and things like that. And we just want to lay it all out. We want to come from the traditional perspective. We want to challenge some things. I think Jack had know we led a very good discussion and Bible study around some of these concepts. And so this is going to be more of a study episode. I mean, obviously we're going to talk through, but really we're going to be in our Bibles quite a bit. We have a lot of verses to turn to or to reference. And so this is one of those if you're following along, may not be a bad idea to get your Bible out if you have some time. I know a lot of you are driving while listening to this and so maybe that's tough, but if you can, yeah, this is a great one to maybe bookmark and be ready to do some Bible study on and see where you come to it on it. [00:03:59] Speaker C: But getting your Bible out while driving is a pretty good way to get the definitive answer on what happens after we die. Nice. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah, don't do that. But yeah, come back to it. But yeah, we're going to get into rich man Lazarus. We're going to get into obviously resurrection. [00:04:17] Speaker A: They get pulled over by the cops and then they're like the Think Deeper guys told me to pull out my Bible. [00:04:21] Speaker C: Pulling my bible. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right, sir. What were you doing all over the road? Dude, I read my Bible. How can you get mad at me? You're going to pull me over for reading my Bible? [00:04:31] Speaker A: Writes you $180 ticket. [00:04:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm being persecuted. Sorry, that's bad. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah, Jack's on a roll with the dark humor. So anyway, I'm actually going to turn it over to Jack. So we'll try to cap the dark humor on as we start talking about death. How about that? What happens when we die? So Jack, there's the traditional view obviously. And I don't know that we have this on the outline, but I think this is something we can get into of. And I think we've talked about it before, those that kind of see the light and those that go to heaven, right? Heaven is for real, things like that. But what is the traditional view and then kind of your understanding of what happens when we die? [00:05:15] Speaker C: Well, to give a little more background, it was almost like a retraction of sorts to start with. When we did the Bad Memology episode, I guess that was last one of them got us into it. It was the C. S. Lewis you don't have a body, you have a soul kind of thing, whatever it is. The false CS. Lewis quote, you are a soul, you have a body. Right. That one. And I talked about the resurrection and that's what kind of the question of what is eternal life? And I said, well, we are resurrected to a body and they aren't. And so we get to live forever bodily. Well, John 528 and 29 says they are resurrected bodily. There's a resurrection to judgment and a resurrection to life. And so there's reason to believe that it's not just eternal conscious torment, but eternal physical torment in hell. And so their bodies are living on and on and on forever, even though it's the second death. And they're being tormented, but they're alive, they're conscious, they're there. And so when I realized that, it was like, well, so what is eternal life? And so I kind of went and did a whole re review of what happens when we die, what happens when Jesus comes back, where we spend eternity, what eternal life even means. And we'll get to some of those points here in a bit. But then I started having discussions on it, and I heard different theories. The rich men and Lazarus. One is kind of the defining paradigm people use. And so we'll turn to that in Luke 16 in just a minute. But I also was given theory that, well, when we die, that's kind of everyone's personal Judgment Day is right then. And then you're sorted into where you're going to go. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Time is different. It's not in our timeline. [00:06:58] Speaker C: You exist outside of time. And so almost at the moment you die, everyone is fast forwarded to the Judgment Day because now all time is contained in the same moment. Well, no, that's not really accurate. You see Samuel and Elijah and Moses kind of that were in the grave and then coming out, we see people being raised from the dead when Jesus was crucified. And so they couldn't have already been to the Judgment Day. And on the other side of, like, there's very much reason to believe they are in this same timeline we are, but not in the body anymore. And so the question is, if they're not in the body, where are they? Some people think that okay, you're just asleep, you are unconscious until he comes back for the judgment day. And so those are a couple of the theories that I ran into and talking to people about this and all that. Essentially we need to get at these Bible words. Sheol in the Old Testament, Hades in the New Testament. That's just the not because a lot of times when people use Hades, they use it as simultaneous or not simultaneous. What am I saying? Synonymous with hell. It's not. [00:08:15] Speaker A: A lot of that real quick. Just comes from the translation. I think King James does that sometimes. It should say Hades. And King James will say, right, right. [00:08:23] Speaker C: Which hell generally is gehenna, that Jesus uses, which referred to the valley outside of Jerusalem, the trash dump valley where they're constantly burning and smoldering and just an awful place. And then he says, yeah, that's the place of eternal torment, where the fire is not quenched, the worm does not die, all that, that's gehenna, Hades, shiol, you know, David talks about he was going to go to Shiol, that all go down to Sheol, the grave. That it's, just burial. You're not alive anymore, you're not walking around anymore. You are in sheol? And then in the New Testament, of course, Hades. And so you've got Hades, gehenna, sheol. There is word I think Peter uses it tartarus. That is also kind of part of the place of judgment or place of punishment or torment, but just something a little different there. But the main words are slash, Hades and Gehenna. So let's get into the rich man and Lazarus one, because that is really where most people get their understanding of this whole concept. Yeah. [00:09:35] Speaker A: So Luke 16, as Jack referenced earlier, and in full disclosure, this is something that growing up, what I was always taught, what I always believed. So obviously you've got in this particular and I do believe it's a parable. A lot of people don't believe it's a parable, doesn't super matter because I still believe that this was kind of the structure before Jesus died. But you've got two people who both die, of course, the rich man, and then you've got Lazarus, the poor man, and they both go somewhere, they both go to, as Jack brought up Hades, the grave, the realm of the dead, but they're in two separate places. There's this chasm that's separated. We see that in Luke 16, verse 22, that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, which as far as our understanding goes, is synonymous with the concept of paradise that we see in Luke 23 when Jesus tells the people on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise. And then Lazarus, I'm sorry, the rich man went to torment. That's verse 23, being in torment in Hades, he looked up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. So the structure in Luke 16 that Jesus refers to is two separate places, big chasm in between, where you can't cross over to the other side. We see that from verse 26 of Luke 16. And so the theory has been again that continues to today, that if I die and I am in Christ, I will go to paradise, to this kind of holding ground, if you will, this waiting period of paradise. If I die and I'm not in Christ, I will go to torment. Still a waiting period before the judgment, but it's a place of torment. And so the thing about that is, again, according to this traditional view that I was always taught and that I think most people still believe, you kind of already know where you're going, if that makes sense. When you die, you're either in paradise, you get a pretty clear indicator of where you're going to go after judgment. If you're in torment, you get a pretty clear indicator of where you're going to go after judgment. And so I do think this here in Luke 16, most people use this as the template. What do you guys have to add to this as far as kind of the way that's laid out of you've got somebody that dies. They go to one of these two places, again, according to the traditional view, until the second coming of Christ, at which point after that, the judgment takes place, and then they are dispersed into heaven or hell. Is that a pretty fair summarization of the way that's normally taught? [00:12:13] Speaker C: Right. And the other thing is that they're both in Hades. Hades contains bosom and torment and the chasm in between. And so Hades is this land, realm, dimension, whatever you want to call it, that has good and bad. There's a good waiting room and a bad waiting room. And I think some people in teaching this and talking to people ran into a struggle with the idea that you already know that, okay, well, why do we need the Judgment Day if you already have the good place and the bad? But my point was you already have that here on Earth. Those who are in Christ, those who are baptized in Christ, if it says you can know you are saved. And I don't know why, but I think some Christians really think it's supposed to remain a surprise until Judgment Day, like, well, you can't really know that you're saved, and maybe we'll be surprised that some people aren't that we didn't expect to be. If we've been given the process and we've been told, you can know you have eternal life, it doesn't need to be a surprise. I think that's kind of a weird thing. I came into my only pushback on that. [00:13:19] Speaker A: And Joe, if you want to make this point, because in our discussions about this, I think you were the one that brought this up, if you align with this line of thinking, I think there are going to be people who are genuinely surprised, obviously guys like Billy Graham. [00:13:32] Speaker C: Well, there'll be unsaved people who are surprised. There shouldn't be any gotcha gotcha surprised. I guess I should say, to clarify. [00:13:38] Speaker A: That those who are within the body currently will not be, but those right. [00:13:43] Speaker C: So it's Christians who are like, well, I'm going to find out if I made it to heaven before I die. You should know now where you're going. I think we've talked a lot about that. Yeah, go ahead and not cut you off. [00:13:59] Speaker B: But that's an interesting point. And that kind of us specifically in the church of Christ have a very difficult time with assurance, which is kind of the Book of Colossians. Like, this is how you can know that you're saved. This is why this is such an interesting discussion specifically for those in the church is what happens after we die, of course, is a mystery, but how it takes place but also what is going to happen is a mystery to a lot of us because we don't have the assurance of being in Christ. And so it's like, I don't know. I just really want to know if I've made it. Well, I do think that this story shows account story, whatever you want to say it is. I do think that this shows there will be that chasm. Now here's where we get into and I cut out actually a little bit. I don't know if you guys noticed I lost power and came back. So I may have missed a part of this discussion. Will, did you get into Philippians 123? [00:14:47] Speaker A: I did not. [00:14:48] Speaker C: Go right ahead. We're not there just yet. No, I think we can go ahead. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I was going to say because I wanted to transition into that kind of that leads to this point of we do know where we're going to go. This is Paul talking about in Philippians 123. He says, but I'm hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better. He has this idea that he's going to be with Christ. And then we also know that Jesus talks about the thief on the cross. He says, Today you'll be with me in paradise. I think it's Luke 23 43. So I think what's interesting, fellas, and this is going to kick us off, I think we're ready for this. Into the next discussion of well, let. [00:15:28] Speaker C: Me throw one more verse in to add to those concepts. Two corinthians five. Verse six. Therefore, being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. And so he's talking very similarly, as he is in Philippians one, to live as Christ die as gain. But he says these are our choices. We can be in the body or we can be with the. [00:15:59] Speaker B: And maybe before we get because this is going to be the main crux of the outline is where does Jesus reside specifically if it's in Hades, or rather if it's in paradise? Right, there's this resting place, the grave, and we've kind of split it into Hades is the bad place and paradise is the good place. I do think the thief on the cross would be with Christ in paradise because it seems that that know the day that they died, he would go up to paradise as Lazarus was in paradise. However, what do we make of Paul being with Christ the day that he dies? It obviously goes to show, as we're saying, you do know where you go after death. You do know that there's the assurance, obviously, but that you are separated after death. He's not going to go into some waiting place where he's hanging out with Hitler at the same time, obviously there's a separation there. Sorry, go for it. [00:16:46] Speaker A: I was going to say, your point is if Paul was utterly convinced that he was going to be with Christ when he died, that would seem to indicate Jesus is still in paradise. Is the one belief which we know biblically. Jesus is at the right hand of not jesus is know in Hades at this moment. So that presents a conundrum is what you're pointing out there. [00:17:10] Speaker B: That's exactly it. What do we do with that? Where do we go with that? Because Jesus is either in paradise or he's in heaven. I don't think he's in both. And since Revelation makes it very clear he is ascended to the right hand of God, as other passages have as know, is Paul in Heaven or is Paul in paradise? Jack. I'll let you take Jack. [00:17:33] Speaker C: Okay. So that gets us into the question of what happened when Jesus died, he was buried in the tomb, but the Bible gives a few hints on he wasn't just laying there waiting for God to wake him up. And the Psalms talk about this with the I should have written it now I got it here somewhere about not undergoing decay and David saying you're not going to though I go into Shalom 16, thank you. 16, yeah, I have it written somewhere. I've got too many notes scattered about here. I appreciate that. [00:18:07] Speaker B: And reference. [00:18:08] Speaker C: Acts two, right. [00:18:09] Speaker A: Yes, acts Two references up in the Acts Two sermon, peter applies it to. [00:18:13] Speaker C: Jesus's resurrection to say, yeah, this is the real fulfillment of that. As Jesus was not abandoned, sheol he didn't undergo decay, so he was in sheol he was in Hades. Unfortunately, because of the translation error that Will mentioned, and we don't recite the Apostles Creed in the churches of Christ, but a lot of your denominational friends do. And part of the Apostle's Creed is that jesus descended into. And there's a translation thing there. Sometimes people read it as hell descended into Hades. And so people who recite the Apostles Creed, a lot of them think Jesus descended into hell. And because they recite that in their church every week, they go out and say that. [00:18:53] Speaker A: And because I had somebody bring up that theory to me within the last six months and I had never heard that before, they were like, well, so what do you think about the idea that Jesus went to hell for those three days? And I was like, I have never heard that. But I guess that's where they get it from. [00:19:05] Speaker C: That's where it comes. And so and again, it's just a translation issue. He didn't go to hell, he went to Hades, he went to Sheol, he went to the realm of the boat. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Of the dead, right? [00:19:15] Speaker C: And there are a few scriptures that speak on that. And this is kind of why he was down there while he was down there. Number one, Matthew 1240 talks about the connection with Jonah and in the belly of the fish. And Jesus raised in the same way and the belly of the earth. Let's look at a couple of things. Ephesians 410 is the primary one. But then there's, while you're flipping there. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Jack, let me just read Matthew 1240 because I'm right, go for it. To prevent the paraphrase. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [00:19:55] Speaker C: Right? So there is the parallel to that. And then one peter 318. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just, for the unjust. So that he might bring us to God having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patients of Noah kept waiting in the days of God during the construction of the ark, in which a few that his eight persons were brought safely through the water. And so Jesus, going after his death in the flesh, went and made proclamation again, he was busy, he was working during that time of his death. One of the other asides, before we get into the one that I really think drives home, what happens here for us is that question of are you just totally asleep when you die? I don't get that from Paul's words. When he says he wants to go be with the Lord, he doesn't mean sleeping next to Jesus's sleeping body or anything like that. And we see. Jesus obviously was conscious, know, doing something in his death. He wasn't asleep. The other thing of do you exist outside time? No. It was corresponding to the Friday, Saturday, Sunday of his crucifixion that this was taking place and so no, you don't go outside of time. You are still on Earth's timeline when you were in the grave. I think we can establish side points from all that before we get to the Ephesians four one. Did you guys have anything else to add? All right, somebody want to read that one? Ephesians four. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I got it. So let's start in Ephesians four, verse seven. But to each one of us, grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, when he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives and he gave gifts to men. Now this expression he ascended, what does it mean except that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is himself also. He who ascended far above all the heavens so that he might fill all things. What's interesting is like Ephesians four is all about unity. And I know the connection is he gave gifts to men, but there is. [00:22:00] Speaker A: Just this huge random tidbit of information right here. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Exactly. It's such a nugget. Like right in the middle of yeah, there's unity and he gave some as apostle, preachers, teachers, right. All of this. Oh, and by the way, he descended into Hades and led captive a host of captives. And it seems like that's what he's doing. So in those three days he's in the grave, right? He goes and he takes And I think you see this in Revelation. I think you see the ascension of these Christians who are under the altar. [00:22:25] Speaker C: Right? [00:22:25] Speaker B: And I think I don't want to get into a whole Revelation thing, but at the same time I think you see this progression of Him ascending and taking that throne. And he does lead captive a host of captives. Well, who are the captives? Those that are stuck seemingly in paradise. He is taking them to heaven with Him. And again, I think Revelation bears this out, that those that were in paradise that were just waiting as these spirits, he's taking them up to heaven, and I think he's basically taking a wrecking ball to paradise and he's leading all of these captives free, leading them to freedom in heaven, to basically those who. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Were in paradise before. Like as we talked about in the rich man Lazarus, those who were waiting heaven was then essentially unlocked by Jesus's death when he was in Hades for three days. [00:23:12] Speaker C: Well, because until the sacrifice of Couldn't, you can't go in to God's throne room, you can't go be with there. There still is that full atonement that needs to happen. And I think Hebrews really exposes a lot of this. Hebrews is one of those that I think you can read it like twelve layers deep. It's just incredible. I mean, of the priestly work of Jesus and enters before the throne and everything that he did is they couldn't. And so now he comes and says, all right, payments posted and unlocks the door and they all get to go in. You're not in Abraham's bosom anymore. And that extends from every righteous person who died until the cross. And so we were joking about this or these guys were trying to throw me off while I was teaching class last week where I said Abel was the first one in this paradise waiting place. And he was there a long time by himself, just kind of hanging mean probably hundreds of years. And then other people started showing up. And by the time the end of the Old Testament, it's populated with Abraham and Moses. [00:24:20] Speaker A: Jack was up there teaching class. I probably shouldn't be admitting that me and Joe were texting during his class, but we were trying to throw him off. We were sending him the Will Smith meme of just being in the room by himself. And Joe. I think he sent the John Travolta one. [00:24:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:34] Speaker B: The John Travolta looking around. [00:24:36] Speaker A: To Jack's credit, he did not break even a smile. I don't think. [00:24:40] Speaker C: It was close. It was very close. [00:24:41] Speaker A: But anyway, I wanted to spell this out a little further, basically to kind of put a bow on what we're presenting here just in case people are confused what scripture would seem to indicate. And I do have a follow up question that I want to get to. I guess after we get to the question of what happened to those who were in torment, because I think people are going to have that question. I have a question to ask after that, but I will hold that essentially the thought is, rather than us still being in this paradise torment system as we described earlier at Jesus'death, is the moment that those who were in paradise before were basically given the right to go into heaven. Jesus carried them into heaven, essentially with him again unlocked heaven for them. Therefore, you and I die today in Christ, we don't go to paradise, we go to heaven. And again, that is against the traditional view, which no, no, you still go to paradise. But what got me about this is that Philippians one verse where Paul clearly says it'd be great for me to die so I could go be with Christ. Christ isn't in paradise anymore. We know that scripturally. And so you'd have to argue that either Paul was know in his belief and he either thought that he know going to paradise where Jesus would be, or that he thought he was going to heaven, he was just wrong. I don't think anybody's going to logically argue that Paul being inspired of God happened to have a wrong piece of information there. Or you have to argue that when Paul said I get to go be with Christ, that he meant, oh yeah, after the thousands of years of waiting in paradise, then I'll get to be with Christ. That doesn't seem to make sense either. So Paul clearly. Seemed to believe when he died, he wouldn't go to paradise, he would go to any thought. That was the kicker for me of like, oh yeah, I don't really know how to get around that. If you are somebody who believes in the, I guess you might say the traditional view. Paul seemed to think he was going to go be with Christ. [00:26:38] Speaker B: What will trip people up? And Jack, you already spoke to this is the time, well, a thousand years, like a day to God or those type of things, where as soon as you're outside of time and that's the problem is are we outside of time, Jack? As you already said, we don't believe that's the case. And there's other things this opens up to a broader discussion of, I think we see in, what is it, Daniel six or Daniel seven, where the angels wait like three weeks, which was literal, that's like on our timeline. And I think that's difficult for people to wrap their minds around that. God kind of holds himself to our timeline in a way. Yes, God is timeless, god is outside of time, but I think he is holding Himself to our timeline outside. When we get into the spiritual realm, I still think we're waiting for that Judgment Day. And this is taking place in real time, 6000 years to 6000 years of the Earth. And that's what trips people up a lot of the time, because again, I think they look at it and go, well, he would be in paradise. But the problem is, okay, either way we're erasing paradise, is what I'm saying, I guess, because if it is a fast forward to the end of time, there is no such thing as paradise. You go right to Heaven as soon as you die, or if there isn't, I still don't think there's a paradise. I think either way, as a Christian, you go straight to Heaven. Either way as a Christian, whether you're straight to Judgment Day or you're not, I do think there's the and the other thing that trips people up is they go, hold on, as Jack already also spoke to this hold on. You're telling me that the judgment has already taken place, then you've already judged that I'm going to Heaven? No, you've already been separated on Earth between the world and Christians. You're continuing that separation in Heaven when yes, they are in Hades, and I don't think Hell is open yet. I think Hades is still there. [00:28:18] Speaker A: They still you mean torment? Hades is not just torment, you're torment, yes, correct. [00:28:24] Speaker B: They're still in torment. I don't think they've been thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is at the end of Revelation. What is that? 21, right. Or in Revelation 21, that hasn't happened yet. However, the paradise aspect so if you're looking at four different realms, hades, paradise, and those open up into Heaven and Hell. Paradise is no longer here, it's just Heaven hades or torment rather. I know. Yeah, but now it's known as Hades. Like torment and hell are still there as a stepping place, if that makes yeah, I think as you look at it, we're already separated here on Earth. We're just continuing that separation. There where we'll go to be with God. We have eternal life now. And that kind of gets back to Jack's main question. What is eternal life? [00:29:06] Speaker C: Before we get on, before we get to that, will you have something exciting? [00:29:10] Speaker A: Well, I was just well, two things. One other note on being still kind of on this Earth time frame, even in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we see the rich man seemingly still be on the same timeline as Earth because who does he want to go and help? His family, his brothers. I've got five brothers, which again seem to indicate that Abraham wasn't like, well you're outside of time now, so it doesn't really matter. No, it's still kind of on the same timeline there. Jack I do want you to as I hand it back to you. And maybe if you want to reserve this know in the next coming minutes instead of just right now, but whenever I first heard this I don't even want to call it theory position I guess you might say my question was about judgment day because it does logically kind of trip people up trips me up when I think. So if we die and go straight to heaven, what on earth is the point of Judgment Day? And when does Judgment day take place for those who are in Christ already going to be with God, as Paul again clearly believed in Philippians one, right? [00:30:10] Speaker C: Yeah, because Paul still teaches the judgment day. Even though he believed he was going to go to heaven when he died, he still expected a Judgment day. And that's where you get into one Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter. You get into you brought up two. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Corinthians five, you read I think, six through eight. In verse ten he says, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. [00:30:31] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:31] Speaker B: First, thessalonians four is very clear about the judgment dead and Christ will rise first, right. [00:30:38] Speaker C: Before we move off the Hades and the divided realm and all that, just stick this in your back pocket and stew on it for a little while. The gates of Hades will not prevail against Jesus's church. Why the gates of Hades? What was the war there? And as has been pointed out, gates don't attack, gates are defense. And so he's saying his church is going to bang down the door of Hades and open it up. And I think that's what happened, that's part of what he did and led captives on high. And you can integrate that with Ephesians four thing. We don't have time for all that, but a fun study. So the question we're on is, okay, what happens with Judgment Day, and you have the resurrection, you have first. Corinthians 15. I think it's first thessalonians four says that those that are dead, they first are going to rise. Then those who are on earth are going to be transformed. So they're going to be given their resurrected bodies. And then those who are alive when Jesus returns will be given their resurrected bodies. They're going to be changed, transformed, and the twinkling of an eye, you're going to be different. And Philippians 321, I think we looked at this one last week about Jesus, that we're going to be conformed or transformed into the body of his glory. We're going to have a body, a resurrected body like Jesus did. And so that's going to happen on the Resurrection Day, the Judgment Day, when Jesus returns, we're going to meet Him in the air on that day when Jesus returns. What happens after that is where it gets really interesting. As I said last week, a lot of people seem to have theory that we're going to be bodily raised and then separated from our bodies as we float up on into the ether. And so I don't know what the point of a bodily resurrection is. And so you start asking these questions, and you're right, why would we want to leave heaven, take on a body and then just go right back to heaven? Maybe something more is happening there is kind of the question. And then we've got the question of eternal life. So which one of these do we want to handle, want to get into with the time we have remaining? [00:32:47] Speaker B: Let's get into both. [00:32:48] Speaker C: Let's get into both. [00:32:49] Speaker A: We do have time. We're only 35 minutes. That's right, we have some time. Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and ask my question here just in case. We've got some people that are just minds blown listening, like, oh my goodness, are they actually saying what they're saying about paradise not really being a place anymore? And you guys may kill me for asking this question. Is this an agree to disagree issue? Can this be something because again, we're not going to shy away from the fact that we've said some things on the podcast that have gotten people really upset at us before. And as we're discussing this, because this does challenge going to say it traditional Church of Christ teaching, I'm sure there are going to be people listening that goes, no, I don't agree with that. I think that's wrong. What I hope it doesn't delve into is what it's delved into before, which is false teacher, false doctrine, that kind of thing. Do you think that this obviously we don't believe it, but you see what I'm saying? I think some people might believe, oh, this rises to the level of false doctrine, false teaching. Any thoughts on that? I don't want any of our listeners to come away with that impression. I get like, we firmly believe. If you agree to disagree on this, that's fine. This is just what we believe scripture teaches. [00:34:02] Speaker C: Yeah, it's very much agree to disagree. I think one of the hard parts is everybody wants to know about the afterlife because it affects all of us. And I think God knew that, so he didn't put a ton of stuff in the Bible about it. Obviously, we've got enough to go on here. We could keep going. Clearly piecing stuff together very much, kind of feeling around in the dark at the pieces we've been given. And to me, I think this is a very tight argument as to what happens, because again, you have to answer some of those questions. Okay. Is Jesus not with the Father right now? Well, I mean, Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of the you know, I think he is. Okay, well, then was Paul wrong about going to be with Jesus? Was Paul misguided about what was going to know? Paul was also caught up into paradise, and so he probably had a pretty good sense of how everything was going to work. Notice he didn't go down into paradise. He didn't go down where Jesus had to go down, up. And that's Ephesians four. He led on high a host of. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Captives, descended versus ascended. [00:35:06] Speaker C: Descended versus ascended. One of the other things that you have to answer is the timeline of Ephesians Four. Paul is talking about Jesus descended into the earth and then ascended on high, led the host of captives and gave gifts to men. And he's talking about the gifts that he gave to the church for everybody to contribute something. Well, that clearly happened in the past, which means that Jesus leading the captives on high happened in the past. Who were the captives if it was not the people who were in waiting that he went down, preached to them, brought them out and brought them up with Him? Who are those captives? And so you've got a lot of really big questions to answer if you don't agree with this. But it doesn't mean, well, you're just totally wrong and you're a heretic. It just means all right. And I'd like to hear the comments are always open, if there is an explanation for that, of why they're still there and who those captives are. Otherwise, I'm totally open to it. And I think that's how we have to approach these things. It really is not a first level issue. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Well, because go ahead, Jack. I'm sorry, I was just going to. [00:36:10] Speaker C: Say it's more of a curiosity, but an important one. I don't want to reduce it to like we're just speculating functionally, though, we're. [00:36:20] Speaker B: All going to be with God. We're all deciding we're all going to a good place. Whether it's paradise or heaven, ultimately we'll be with God. It's a matter of timing and what takes place. I don't think we're saying that changes and flips on its head, heaven and hell. We're just know functionally, it operates a little bit differently. [00:36:36] Speaker A: I was just going to say, too, for Jack or for me or for Joe or for anybody else to come out and say, well, this is definitely what the Bible teaches, for sure, 100% on the afterlife. You're taking a pretty bold stance there, right. If you're saying this is definitely how it is, and obviously none of us three are doing it. So just that little tidbit to add to the point that, yeah, this is kind of a complex issue. The other thing I was going to ask before we get into those other two questions is about the spirits in prison. First, Peter three passage how that relates, because that doesn't seem to be referring to the leading the captives on high. It says he went and preached to the spirits in prison or proclaimed to the spirits in prison or whatever. [00:37:14] Speaker C: Disobedient spirits who were disobedient. [00:37:16] Speaker A: Right. And so obviously not the same thing. Gentlemen, what are your theories on that? It seems as though he visited paradise and he visited torment. Interestingly enough, obviously very complex. We'd go on for a while, but quick 32nd theory on that. [00:37:32] Speaker B: My theory, jack probably has a better theory than mine, but my theory is he goes and he lets those that are in torment know, these are my people and I'm taking them to heaven with me. [00:37:43] Speaker A: That is his preaching. [00:37:44] Speaker B: Yeah, kind of a victory lap of like, this is what you're missing out on, so to speak. They have this chasm if we're taking rich man of Lazarus, right. It seems like they have this chasm, but those in torment know what's going on because he's asking for Lazarus, like, hey, just give me a drip of water. Right. So they have some knowledge, and it seems like maybe Jesus is bridging that chasm, speaking to them, preaching to them, letting them know of, like, kind of, hey, you blew it. And this is what I'm doing with those that are against or cross from the chasm, I'm taking them to heaven with me. And I think that's him letting them know what he's about to do. Personally, I think that's my theory on it. Jack, what's yours? [00:38:23] Speaker C: Yeah, that's as good as any one I heard was trying to make the case that, well, he went in spirit and preached to those that are now in prison. So in the spirit, he was speaking through Noah to them. It's like, yeah, man, that is a really big so, you know, the one that takes the least mental gymnastics is what Joe says. And so let's just go with that for now because it's a very complicated one. But again, on some level, he had a conversation with some discourse. Yes. That more than anything is wild speculation. So before we it is very wild speculation. [00:39:08] Speaker B: I want to come back to though, I want to come back to Will's question about judgment. I'm telling you, this is going to trip up a lot of people. What's the point of the judgment then? Because we did say if it's bodily, it doesn't really make sense. We talked about some of the things that don't make sense. If we take it as we kind of currently do, we usually do. But then what is the point of the judgment if we've already been separated now, we have to say, and we already said we think there's spirits in heaven, that we don't have a body, but we see Christ actually get a physical body, right? A new, a renewed body. And I think that's what's being talked about in first thessalonians four and throughout is this idea that will come the. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Second coming of Christ, correct. [00:39:49] Speaker B: We'll get a new body. This is also where you get into some more difficult discussions on things of what happens at the judgment and what's created or what's not created of us getting to go, well, if we're already with God, then why would we need a body? The only thing that we get is a body. This is where you could get canceled. I think we've dogmas danced around this idea. I do think that there will be some level of a new earth created that we will be able to go back to the paradise from genesis one. Genesis two. You see this in Revelation 22. Tree of life, the river of life flowing through it. You see that river of life. I think it's Ezekiel 47, like you see this terminology used throughout the Old Testament into the New Testament of there being something different. Now, where this theory falls apart is, in my opinion, if we're spirits at the judgment, all it is, is we come down, we get a physical body, and we go back up and we get a physical body to be in this ethereal plane. Why would we need physical to be in some ethereal plane? What you would need a physical body for the reason why bodily resurrection makes sense is if you are going to do something with that body and not just float in space praising God, though, that's okay too, if that's what takes place. However, it makes sense if you're going to have a bodily resurrection for there to be a resurrection of something else. You can get into Romans eight. You can get into a lot of different things surrounding what takes place. But I do think something new is coming, and there's a reason why we're given a body. Why was Adam given a body? To tend the garden, right? To walk with God in paradise. Why would we be given a brand new body? Why was Christ given a brand new body and not just a spirit? Because there's plans for that. I think they've talked about this in Dogma. It's gnostic to think this body is and that we got into this last week with the know, this body just doesn't matter at all. It does matter. There's a reason that God created us in this bodily form, which is the pinnacle of his creation, and there's a reason that God received or that Christ received a new body. And there's a reason Paul speaks about us receiving a new body, right? The dead in Christ will rise first and receive this body. So, I don't know, I mean, it seems to make the case that we will have some level of physicality and that's what takes place at the judgment. Up until that point, we're just floating spirits out there. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Does that make also would you also agree that we see verses about how we are going to give an account, we're going to give an account for every word spoken and things like that. Jack, again, I guess I'll throw it to you since you've done the most study, you taught the classic, put the outline together, et cetera. We die, we go to heaven, Christ returns, that's when Judgment day takes place and that's when we give an account, I suppose. And again, the problem with that is, and again, this is just me thinking out loud here, wouldn't we theoretically already know that our name is in the book of Life? If we're in heaven like God at the judgment day. [00:42:43] Speaker C: Yeah, all right. [00:42:45] Speaker B: Your name's in the book of Life. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Like, whoa, surprise. Didn't know that. [00:42:48] Speaker C: That was my point earlier. When you come up out of the waters of baptism, you know your name is in the book of Life. It doesn't need to be a surprise. It shouldn't be a surprise for the saved. As we said, there's going to be a big surprise for some of the unsaved. But Revelation 20 and anytime you go to Revelation, you got to be careful because symbolic, literal, how much you're taken of each. However, after the devil being thrown into the lake of Fire and Brimstone and beast, the false prophet, and they're going to be tormented day and night forever, that's after the big war, Christ returns, defeats them, all of that. Let's see. This is Revelation 20, verse eleven. Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small standing before the throne. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death. And Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them, according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. And so we take that of the death in Hades people brought up out of that. They've been in torment. They're thrown into the lake of fire with Satan torment forever and ever. And then following up on that, continues on. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven, and the first earth passed away, and there's no longer any sea. I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and he will dwell among them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be among them, and he will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death. There will no longer be any mourning or crying or pain. The first things have passed away. And he who sits on the throne said, behold, I'm making all things new. It's interesting that it says, he will live with them, not we will live with him. And it talks about coming down and he will be with us. I think we should take something from that if you put those pieces together. But this is terminology that's kind of throughout the Bible, back in Isaiah, it's in Peter, it's in for two Peter three, it's in Romans eight. Peter speaks about this. Even Jesus drops a hint at it when he talks about the renovation or the restoration somewhere in Matthew. And so this is something that the Bible hints at, a bunch of a new heaven and a new earth. There's no longer any seat, but he says the first earth passed away. Two, Peter three says the same thing. Earth will be destroyed with heat and its elements will be destroyed. We're looking for a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. There's a lot of debate and discussion as to what this actually means and oh, so you don't think there's a heaven or this is Jehovah's Witnessism or no, there's a cleansing, fire, destruction. Something happens to earth afterwards. There is a dwelling place for God's people in which he will dwell among them. He will come and be with them. I've even heard somebody say, well, if you believe in new heavens, new earth, well, that's too bad because I want to spend eternity with God. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Okay, give me a break. [00:46:12] Speaker C: The Christians are going to be with him wherever it is, whether it's in a disembodied heaven, whether it's in a heaven meets earth somewhere in between, some kind of mixture of heavenly, spiritual. There's so many paths, we don't know for sure. [00:46:26] Speaker A: That's the point here. [00:46:28] Speaker C: There's so much speculation on this. And the thing that really annoys me is the attitude that, okay, taking these pieces that we've been given and speculating on what that's going to look like. That makes you the heretic of heretics, no? Right, come on. We all agree that the saved are going to be with God forever. How physical that is, where that is what it looks like. Anybody who can say, well, I know for sure it's going to look like this. Okay, good for you, number one. But number two, that's what I said earlier, though. [00:47:00] Speaker A: That's a pretty bold stance to take. [00:47:01] Speaker C: It's very bold. But it's like, show your work, show your work. I mean, all of this is interpretation and that's okay. That's all we can do. [00:47:10] Speaker B: There's still more questions that they have to answer. Why do we have a body? Why do we get a new body if there is no reason to use it for five minutes? [00:47:18] Speaker C: Right there's counterpoints. One Corinthians 15 says, flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom of heaven. Now, I would say if you look at how flesh and blood is used in the New Testament, it doesn't mean a body. It means things of this earth. And we're being clothed with a spiritual body from above. Two corinthians five. And so I think there's points and counterpoints to be made. We're going to meet him in the air. Well, why are we going to meet him in the air if we're going to live on earth? Again? You're just patching together little bit of glimpses the Bible gives us in, like, six to eight different places. And that's it. That's all you have to go on. And so being highly dogmatic about this, as some have grown to be in recent years is really a joke. Honestly, if we can all agree that the saved are going to be with Jesus forever, be with our God and our Father, never die. All right, cool. [00:48:13] Speaker B: We're on the same yeah, the same team. And people get disinvited from things. People get friendships are broken over this particular issue, and I look at it and go, really? We're all functionally saying we're all going to be with God in one form or the other, and we're all speculating on things we're not saying. And so this podcast is there's a lot of speculation anytime. I will say that after you die. [00:48:33] Speaker C: Some of the listeners are going to know exactly some of that Inside Politics we're talking about, some aren't. If you do not just give thanks, know, study it for yourself and come down where you think is right, and if you do, yeah, it's unfortunate that that's out there. But avoiding that we did address the question of eternal life is kind of what drove me into this study in the first place. Joe, did you have some I wanted. [00:48:58] Speaker B: To say this real fast. I want to ask a question. Reading this Revelation 20 and into 21, specifically with the Book of Life, do you get the sense that Christians will be judged? It seems the dead will be judged I think the Christians seemingly, and I could be off on this, this is why I'm just asking this question when it's talking about the dead and death and Hades and the dead coming out of the sea. And if you follow sea and Revelation, it seems like those are there's reasons why it would say that, right. Won't get into that. Follow our class on Focus Plus if that's the case but do Christians have the need to be judged when all he sees is Christ? He sees Christ's blood covering us and all of our sins have been forgiven and are white as snow. [00:49:42] Speaker A: What would you make of two Corinthians, five, nine and ten? Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each 1 may receive the things done in the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. And that would seem to pretty clearly indicate Christians are going to be judged as well. I think what's the other passage in Hebrews? Hebrews nine, I think about yeah, it's. [00:50:04] Speaker C: At the end of nine, about yeah. [00:50:06] Speaker A: Verse 20, to die once. But after this the judgment doesn't seem to be a separation. [00:50:13] Speaker B: There stand at the judgment. My point is so the good I think we could see that he's doing good for the bad. Does God see the bad as Christians or does he only see Christ in our place? Because that would seem the justification process and the sanctification process is both the cleansing of our sins and like taking away stripping away all of the bad. So when we get to heaven, would it not be that God sees us as Christ? Like, looking at it, I don't get the sense Christ is judged in that way. [00:50:42] Speaker C: The big promise of the new covenant is he'll forgive your sins and remember them no more. Correct. And so if you're going to have to go, he's like, well, what about that time? Well, then he remembered them. And so I think that's a problem. What I make of two Corinthians 510 especially will your said receive the deeds in the body? Mine says, Be recompensed for his deeds in the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. I think that's an all or nothing. I don't think it's, well, you did some good because that's almost like a purgatory kind of thing of, well, here's the bad that you did and so you're going to be paid back for that, but you still got to go to heaven. The recompense or receiving the return on that is it's either good or it's bad. Because if not, then you do have to have some kind of purgatory thing like, all right, you're going to be punished a little bit and then you get to go into heaven. I don't think that's the system are Christians judged? Yeah, you. Stand before. And that's what you get to at. [00:51:38] Speaker B: The end of faithful servant, right? [00:51:40] Speaker C: Well, and you get to the end of two, Corinthians 521. He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And so I think in Christ, we just don't have that worry again. The sins have been forgiven and forgotten. [00:51:54] Speaker B: I think the judgment, the way I see it, is like he reads it and goes, is your name in the book of life? And this is the judgment each person stands before the judgment seat of God. And he reads it and goes, okay, Joe Wilkie, okay, yeah, years, well done, good and faithful servant, right. You have the mark of first Ephesians 114, right? [00:52:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker B: The seal of the spirit. You have that you can enter into heaven and you get the new body and everything else. And so we all stand before the judgment. I'm not saying we're not judged in terms of we never have to. I'm saying the way that the judgment takes place seems it's not he's going to be reading our sins. It's okay. Do I find your name in the book of life? Everybody else, the dead are the ones where he reads their sins. And this makes sense to me because you're going to have this goes back to what we said earlier before we get into and wrap up with the discussion on eternal life briefly, but you're going to have people that go, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. And this is a Matthew Seven. Like, did we not do this? This in your name. And he's going to say, depart me, you who practice lawlessness. How do they know what lawless deeds? Because he's going to read, you did this and this and this and this. You don't have the seal of the spirit, you don't have the blood of Christ cleansing you, therefore that gives them reason. What I struggle with is you're going to have people that for a thousand years thought they were doing the right thing and are waiting in this torment going, what in the world? I thought I was good enough. So I feel like they are going to have some level of, okay, I know that what I did was wrong. I'm thinking, and I don't want to bring a ton of names, but we often use the name like Billy Graham, right? He thinks he's perfectly fine with God while teaching a salvation that is not correct. So he's going to get there and he's been with God for 20 something years, right? I don't know, 1510 years. And he's waiting in torment, but he hasn't been judged yet. That's the one struggle that I have with this whole thing is if they are given some knowledge of what they've done without it being the full judgment, that would make a lot more sense than him waiting, going, what did I do wrong for however long until Christ comes back. See what I mean? That's the one struggle I have. I don't know if there's a way around it per se, other than maybe they just are aware of it. [00:53:56] Speaker C: Good question. Moving on. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Get us into eternal life, though, because once again, speculation, we can't know all of these things. Get us into eternal life. This is where we're going to wrap up. You started with this, of what is eternal life? And it breaks our brain, because if we say it's the body aspect, well, they get a body, too, if it's eternally surviving, well, they eternally survive, too in hell, so it can't be those things. So what is eternal life? [00:54:20] Speaker C: Yeah, you break it down into existing forever. Well, that's not it. I mean, existing forever in itself isn't a reward. In fact, it can be a punishment depending on the nature of the existence. And as we see it is. I think John gives us the most to go on in this. And number one, he says repeatedly, you have eternal life here on this earth. You have eternal life. And it's a life, the life of abundance that Jesus came to bring in, john Ten and the wellspring of water welling up to eternal life, john Four and John seven. And it's a quality of life kind of thing, and not that we don't live forever, but that we do with this new quality of life. And it comes down to John 17 three or two and three, even as you gave him authority over all flesh, that to all whom you have given Him, he may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know you. Jesus is praying to the Father that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent, that's eternal life is knowing God, being united with God. He comes back around to that at the end of first John five to basically say the same thing of they have eternal life because they know Him and the Son. And so unity with God, oneness with God. Paul gets into this a little bit in Romans 623, of course. He says the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life. But right before that, he said that the outcome of our sanctification is eternal life, that the more and more we become like Christ, our sanctification is being made holy, being made like Him. The outcome of that is eternal life. And then Galatians six, where he talks about sowing to the Spirit, you sow to the flesh and you reap death, or you sow to the Spirit and you reap eternal life. Like the more fruit of the Spirit you bear, the more eternal life you're growing into. And so it's not just, hey, you do this, you get to live forever. That's not what he's saying. It's the transformation of yourself. And then first john Three says, when we see him, we don't know what's going to happen, what we're going to be like. We know we'll be like him. And so what eternal life is, is oneness with God, is that sin has been removed from you. You think like him, you act like him, you love like him. You are surrounded by people who love like him, that's eternal life, not just existence, but a quality of life kind of thing. Because again, this might sound weird to somebody, but then you ask the question, okay, if eternal life is just existing forever, do people in hell have eternal life? No. I mean, the way the Bible speaks of eternal life, that's not a promise given to them. It clearly means something more than just existing forever. And I think it is these conceptual things of how you exist, true life is in him versus just being around. So that to me is a very brief synopsis of what eternal life is meant for us to be. Why that matters is it changes how you live now. You're not sitting around waiting for your ticket to get punched when you die to go to a better place. That's going to happen. But right now you've got a life that the more you feed into it, the more glimpse and grasp of eternal life you can have here on earth. The more you commune with God, the more you serve Him, the more you sacrifice of self, the more you give of yourself, your sanctification, you start experiencing eternal life more and more and more here on earth, and you see the deep joy of the Christians, you know, who are the most committed to that. [00:57:53] Speaker A: I think that's a great way to summarize that. You said that very well. I'm always excited to hear comments and to read comments, man. This one I'm especially excited to see because there's just some topics that seems like everybody has an opinion on, and this is one that I think for better, everybody seems to have a thought on or even a question about. Again, I've still got questions, I'm sure Jack, I mean, we all still have questions about this and this has just really been kind of a feel it out, let's open our Bibles, let's study, let's bring up some things type of episode. We hope you learned something. First of all, hope you kind of enjoyed the discussion about it. But again, to my original point, if you have something that you're wondering about a question, especially if you're a Focus Plus subscriber, let us know. Comment, facebook, of course, or again, subscribers on the Patreon post, let us know if you have a thought. If you have a question about was when Jack taught this class, I was talking to Joe after and I was like, man, it's not that I want to die now, but it is one of those things. It's like, man, to have all these questions answered and to know what it's going to be like, it does give. [00:58:57] Speaker B: You excitement for the great mystery man. [00:58:59] Speaker A: Sounds a little strange to say, but yeah, it is an incredible mystery. To Jack's point, I do think god purposely did not give us all the information because it will be that much more spectacular, that much more mind blowing, if you will, when we get to be with God forever, when we get to see what it will actually be like and we can move past all this earthly speculation. So, guys, I don't know if you have anything add wraps up again. Let us know what you think, let us know what questions you have. If that's all, if you guys don't have anything else to add, then we will wrap right there and we will be back next week. Thanks for listening.