Israel, the Church, and the End of the World

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Think Deeper Podcast. I'm your co host, Will Harab, joined by Jack and Joe Wilkie. Got a very timely episode for today as we're going to be talking about Israel, the Jews as allegedly God's chosen people. Still, lot of discussion that we're going to get to with that. Before we do, though, I've got two things that I want to bring up. The first is that we have got kind of a rebrand, a relaunch of some kids Bible class curriculum that is called The Drama of Redemption from Sarah Fallas. We are super excited if you go to our website or go to our Facebook page, should be one of the first few posts that you see on there. Again called the drama of redemption. Kind of a new look, new rebrand, looks fantastic. Really, really good stuff for kids Bible class curriculum. So again, if you want more info on that, just check out our website or check out our Facebook page, a Drama of Redemption. And it kind of again, goes through Bible class curriculum for kids. And so if that's something you're looking for your congregation, if you're maybe a teacher needing some stuff, I'd encourage you to check that out. The other thing that I wanted to bring up is this episode is dropping on, what, October 22, something like that, I think, meaning we're getting close to Halloween. And so I want to point everybody back to our episode from last year right around this time where we discussed Halloween. I think the episode was titled Halloween Horror and Holiness. Kind of like what is a Christian's response to Halloween, to horror movies? Should we be engaging in these things? Should we participating in these things? Should churches have trick or treat? That still remains one of my favorite episodes that we've ever recorded. I think a lot of people really enjoyed that one, mainly because there actually was quite a bit of disagreement between us three on that issue. That doesn't happen a lot, maybe a handful of times since we started the podcast. But I would encourage everybody, again, we're right around this time of year if you're wondering about that. Like, hey, should we really be doing all this spooky stuff? The graveyard, tombstones in the front yard, skeletons and that kind of thing. There's just a lot of questions that I know Christians have about this. Does it have roots in paganism? All kind of stuff. And maybe next year we'll just do a completely new episode on it. But for this year, I don't think that is in the works. And so I would recommend everybody go back to last year if you have questions about that. Again, one of our better episodes, in my opinion. But guys, anything else y'all want to intro or talk about before we get to today's episode? [00:02:34] Speaker B: All right. [00:02:35] Speaker A: If not, I'm going to go ahead and hand it over to Jack to kind of get us into what we're talking about today. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to have Joe Briefly just say what we're not doing with this episode. I think that'd be good for you to kind of establish that before we get into some of the textual and heavier stuff. [00:02:50] Speaker C: We are well aware of what's going on in the world. We follow the news pretty closely, and I don't think you'd have to follow it closely at all to see what's been going on over with Israel and Gaza and Palestine, of course, with Hamas. We are praying for that situation. We're obviously praying for peace and praying for just that the leaders and everybody would make the wisest decisions. What this episode is not is a political breakdown of that discussion. We're not getting into personal ideas, what supporting and whatnot it's not about that discussion. So we will be discussing in this episode on dispensation, pre millennialism and things like that, where you're closely tied in with Israel. And that is one of the reasons it's been on our mind, because we've been seeing a lot of posts about kind of this is ushering in this new dispensation right with Israel. They're going to rise, and this is really the beginning of it. And so that's what got our mind thinking on. Is there's a lot of bad theology coming up about what's going on currently and Israel rising to power once again in the eyes of God and such. We wanted to speak to that. We are not speaking to the political side of it. And I think that's just a very important distinction, is we want to make sure people aren't going to we're not trying to stir up anything surrounding that. We're not political commentators. And you have to be careful when discussing things, and I want people to be careful with the engagement with this episode, is making sure that we're not going to be dragged in into any of these discussions on the political end of things. Are you guys saying this about we're not speaking about that. We're speaking about something that has been going on. Honestly, we're going to get into the history of it. This goes back to the early 19 hundreds and has been building throughout time of the importance of the people of Israel and kind of adjacent to the church. Again with the dispensationalism and such, going back to schoolfield, study Bible. We're going to get into all of that. Jack's going to introduce some of that. But we wanted to make sure that's the case. We're not going to comment on any of the again, the propaganda. Do you think this is AI? Do you think this is deep fake? Do you think these things are happening? Who do you think is right wrong? That's not the point of this episode. So I think I'm beating a dead horse here. But we really want people to know, please don't look to us as the political commentators. We're not on that. We're not CNN. We're not Daily Wire. We're not Fox News. We are here to discuss the biblical take and biblical understanding of the people of Israel as a know Israelite versus church versus kingdom of God. Is there a thousand year reign pre millennialism? That's what this is about. So we just wanted to put that up front. Fellas, anything you'd add to well said. [00:05:27] Speaker B: No. Yeah, so a lot of the popular support for Palestine in all this comes from kind of the decolonial or decolonization critical theory thing. Well, we did a critical race theory episode last year, so check that out. A lot of the support for Israel, and we're not even just talking about, as you said, not the nitty gritty of the war itself, but just kind of ideologically people think, well, I think these are the good guys because they're decolonizers well. I think these are the good guys because dispensational theology, god's people are the Jews. Let's focus on that side of it. The idea that God's people are Israel. What we're going to talk about today is real fancy term called dispensational premillennialism. We're going to break down the two sides of that, the dispensation, the premillennialism. But that's what leads people to say Israel is God's people. And you see a lot of even elected officials say, well, they're God's people and we need to stand with them. You see a lot of evangelical leaders say, well, they're God's people, they've always been God's people. And almost that we as the church are Jesus's. I don't know, I don't want to be disrespectful, but Jesus'girlfriend, until he returns to his real bride, Israel Jesus'muse, that he's kind of in the era of the church. And we'll get into kind of how all this works here in just a bit, but eventually he's going to go back to Israel. They'll be the priority and the church will take a backseat. We'll still be saved, but they're really kind of the top. And so this is a theology that drives real world ideology and politics and all those things. And so getting to the roots of it, I read something where they kind of tried to say that this goes all the way back to the early church. And the early church taught things like this very weak, not really the case. This is very much something that around the 1850s, a guy named John Nelson Darby came up with this ideology. And I thought it was interesting. This article I had pulled up was making points as to why this actually had some positive results. Premillennial. Dispensationalism, dispensational premillennialism. Sorry. In that it was a time where there's a lot of liberal critique of the Bible, of look here's all these biblical prophecies that didn't come true. So the Bible is not actually inerrant. And the pre millennials went back and said, well, let's read these biblical prophecies. Oh, these are things that are still going to happen to Israel and to the world and all that. And so there's a way you can still read the Bible literally and come out okay. And so they were trying to answer some of those problems. They were trying to have faith in God. When they look and see the world kind of turning away from God, turning to immorality and all that, that okay. Well, aren't things supposed to improve under Christ's reign? Why is this? Well, here's their textual explanation. And so John Nelson Darby, again, was a guy that pushed that in the 18 hundreds, I believe it was the early 19 hundreds, the Schofield Study Bible was released very early study Bible, of course, now, I mean, there's a million different study Bibles, but I think this is an interesting side point. Before we move on, just briefly, this is a reason that you'll hear Bible class teachers and preachers say this, and you really need to take it to heart. The notes in your study Bible are not inspired. They're not I mean, they're helpful, but there's a lot of people who believe this is such a gigantic view, maybe the mainstream view in Christendom dispensational premillennialism and the restoration of Israel and all that might be the leading view in evangelicalism because of this study Bible. It was an early study Bible. It was very popular, millions of copies, lots of people had it in hand. And when they would read it and they'd read Revelation or they'd read Matthew 24, they'd read Daniel and they'd see this guy's notes in the text at the bottom saying, well, this is what it means, it's still yet to come. They just believed it. And that set in and that was taught. And theological seminaries started taking it up and teaching it and it really spread. And so be very cautious of Bible study notes. Joe, you had something well, you mentioned. [00:09:57] Speaker C: The theological this is Ligonier Ministries. They had a very good article on it. They mentioned that the founding of Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924 by Lewis Barry Chafer, I guess Chaffer, I don't know, provided an academic institution for the training of pastors, missionaries in the Dispensationalist tradition. A bunch of them came through there and the Dallas Theological Seminary is a big deal. And so all the way back to 1924. So you've got this guy in the 1850s that's really starting to come up with this 19 nine. Schofield pushes it big in his study Bibles that explodes it. Seminaries all the way back to 1924 are starting to teach it with some of the foremost theologians, quote unquote, going through the church. So we see how this has permeated. One thing I was going to say, can we just call it DP for. [00:10:36] Speaker B: The purpose of this episode? So we don't have to say disposition. [00:10:40] Speaker C: Yeah, tongue tied. Exactly. So DP, that's what we're talking about with this episode. I think, if that works. But yes, this has roots going all the way back again, 1850s, early 19 hundreds. And it's huge for a reason. And we'll kind of get into the even why it's big still today. But Will, what jack, I'm going to. [00:10:59] Speaker A: Ask a clarifying question and I'm going to go ahead and come out and say this is very much a learning episode for me. I tried my best to not speak adamantly on things that I'm not the most educated or informed about. And this is one of those where Jack did a ton of the research. So I'm going to be probably asking him a lot of questions and kind of honestly learning right alongside with a lot of our listeners here. But Jack, you said it was the kind of predominant view, I guess, among evangelicals for the most part. That's something I didn't know. I thought this was originally something that was kind of a not obscure and minor percentage of the population of Christendom believed it. But it sounds like you're saying this is something that's widely held by a lot of people and not just some obscure teaching. Is that a pretty fair summarization? [00:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah, because some of the things you're going to hear are a lot more familiar. And I don't think people connect all the dots, but when you hear it's like, oh, that's what they're talking about. Like the Rapture, a lot of people think the Rapture is going to happen, the planes are going to fall out of the sky because the pilot got taken up to heaven and things like that. Or just again, anytime a war breaks out with all the COVID stuff, all the people who were looking at the news going, well, this is as I like to joke, this is out of the Book of Revelations, it's revelation. But people that interpret the Bible that way comes from this ideology, like the. [00:12:14] Speaker A: End Times such approach. [00:12:17] Speaker C: The Left Behind series was one of the biggest book series, biggest Christian books. [00:12:20] Speaker B: We'll get there in just a bit. [00:12:21] Speaker C: I know, but I'm just saying that's why we're going to discuss that a little bit more. But that's also why this is such a big deal now, why so many people believe it is. I mean, that was huge. [00:12:31] Speaker B: And the Rapture, millions and millions of. [00:12:33] Speaker C: Copies and all the people that support Israel that send money back for the rebuilding of the temple and such. We're also getting to that a little bit later. But that also proves how big this is. Like the biggest churches in Colorado, Faith Bible Chapel, had thousands and tens of thousands of members across campuses and they sent millions, I think, back to Israel. And they all believe it. Everybody from there believes that as well. And so just in the you find it's really big in the non denominational, like what you call, uh what am I looking for? [00:13:03] Speaker B: Community churches. Yes. [00:13:05] Speaker C: Community churches very much believe this. So sorry, keep going. [00:13:08] Speaker B: And that's most of the big churches and I think a lot of people it's not like a deeply held thing, it's just kind of the, well, yeah, this is how it's going to happen. We're going to see crazy stuff going on in the world and that'll be indication that the tribulation is coming. So we'll get to that in a minute. So again, we'll get to the theology of it. But the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, post World War II, giving the Jewish people a home and all that, their homeland there in what was the land of Canaan historically, Palestine and Israel and the Holy Land, whatever term you want to call for it, they were reestablished there as a nation in 1948. And the dispensational people were like, this is it, here we go. Israel is going to be restored. The people are getting to go back there. Eventually we're going to get the temple back, we're going to bring back all these things that have to happen before the return of Christ. And so with that, that has ramped up this idea that these things are going to happen. And so with a war like the one that just broke out, that's where people go, all right, this is another step towards the restoration of Israel, which is God's ultimate plan and all those things. So you mentioned Left Behind before, left behind in the 19, in fact, I think it was 1970 itself, a guy named Hal Lindsay put out a book called The Late Great Planet Earth, very much a DP, dispensational book. And he really pioneered a lot of this predicting, reading the news Bible in one hand, newspaper in the other kind of thing, because one of his ideas, and I guess it's still held today, I read this in a few places, was when Jesus said, this generation will not pass away until these things take place. They take that as the generation that was alive at the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948, so that Jesus is going to return in living memory of the 1948 restoration of Israel. Well, that clock's running out in a hurry, but that led this Hal Lindsay guy to saying stuff in the 80s with the Soviet Union and different things that were going on, that all right, the wheels are turning. We're getting there. The end times are coming. And so very much into the prediction game, into the reading the news forecasting revelation in Matthew 24, into the news kind of thing. And then, as you mentioned, Left Behind sold millions and millions of copies. There's been two movies based off of it, a Kurt Cameron one, and I think it was a Nicolas Cage one a few years ago. And all of this is dispensational, pre millennialism DP makes me think of Dr. Pepper. So I'm having like, DP. So, yeah, this is why it's so popular. This is where you see it come out in the real world and again, it comes out in people saying these things are connected, these end times things. And Israel is the people of God, where you see people saying that you might not link them up in your mind, but they come from this same ideology. Does this all make sense at this point? Kind of the history we've gone through here. Comments, questions, things to add? [00:16:20] Speaker A: Well done, professor. [00:16:23] Speaker B: All right. We're just lowly pupils here, right? The master. Yeah, sure. All right, so let's get into the technicals of it. Let's break down Dispensation and millennium all right. I sent you guys the homework. What's a dispensation? Somebody else talk for a minute? [00:16:41] Speaker C: Well, I got it pulled up. Unless you got it, go right ahead. Okay, so the idea of a dispensation, or these are times in life actually, I had two different ones pulled up because this one says it pretty well, in terms of what a dispensation is, it talks about the definition given by Dr. Schofield on page five of his notes in the study Bible. A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture. This is what Schofield says right out of his Bible. The seven so called dispensations are innocency, conscience, human government, promise, law, grace and kingdom. I believe they think we are in the grace period. We're waiting for the kingdom to come down, I think is how that works. [00:17:22] Speaker A: And grace would be the second to. [00:17:23] Speaker C: Last one as you just run through that conscience. So Adam and Eve conscience, that's all the way up through, I think, into the flood, I believe human government, promise, law, grace, kingdom. So Abraham would be during promise, Moses would be during law, grace would be after Christ. And we're waiting for the kingdom is the entire point, I believe, for the full kingdom to be established. Now, again, we'll break down why that is woefully wrong. But that is the belief of the seven dispensations of time where God's people are kind of tested and the revelation of God's coming down for that. So, yeah, dispensation basically just means a moment in time, pretty much. And the seven that they go off of, does that make? [00:18:07] Speaker A: And so and this would be part of the dispensation teaching, is that jack, you already covered it partially, but that the church is not the final phase of God's plan. The church is God's people is not the last step, so to speak, but that there will be a reprioritization of Israel coming and that Israel will still once again be God's chosen people. And one of the other things that Jackie sent over to read is that so 1948 is when there was the reestablishment of Israel. Is it the rapture that comes into this of like, when the last person who was alive on that day dies is when that time period is over. Was another portion of kind of this teaching of like that's when again the rapture comes into this. I think that was part of the Highsaw article that you sent over. There's just a lot of stuff here that when it comes to yeah, that I wasn't aware of before, that this was a part of the teaching. [00:19:10] Speaker C: And the pre millennialists also believe that as we were saying, the church is kind of the plan B, I guess because it was, hey, Jesus came down to establish his kingdom, they rejected him and it didn't work the first time. So he establishes the church to kind of keep things moving as best I can tell. And I don't know if this is what every pre millennials please, but I think so that the church was kind of it continues God's plan, but ultimately he's coming back to establish as the thousand year, like that's what was supposed to happen the first time and basically God's plans were thwarted. And I think this is part of the Jehovah's Witness belief as well, if I remember right. I don't want to speak too much on what I'm not fully sure of, but I believe that's one of their things is like he was thwarted and now he's coming back to really establish the reign of what he was supposed to in reigning on earth at that point. And so we're in this dispensation in between where we're really just in a waiting period. We're kind of at a holding pattern waiting for him to come back and fully establish what he was trying to establish 2000 years ago, which really makes the church seem pretty weak, like being. [00:20:10] Speaker B: A temporary solution, basically kind of a backup plan. Yeah, well, that raises problems in itself of Jesus getting here and going, oh no, they weren't ready for, you know, call an audible right. Really? That's what you want to go with? But that's part of mean, as you said. I'm not sure if they all believe that, but it is a prominent feature in a lot of dispensationalism of he created another dispensation as a bridge back to the rule of Israel over all the earth. And so that's kind of the long and the short of it is he will return to prioritizing Israel in the end. That is his main. So he's just biting his time until he can give them the reign over all the earth and everything's great and everything that has to do with all that stuff. Let's make sure. And we want to present this argument as they would make it. I'm going to get into some of the more technical mathematical ones in a bit, but there are things like Isaiah, chapter two, which I'll read the first few verses of here in just a second, which is where they get this idea of Israel ruling over the world and everything going great. Isaiah two, the word which Isaiah, the son of Amos, saw concerning Judah and jerusalem. Now, it will come about in the last days. The mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains and will be erased above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us concerning his ways, and that we may walk in his path. For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem, and he will judge between the nations and will render decisions for many peoples, and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war. So again, Just is very hopeful. And there's other ones like that about the establishment of Israel, Zion, Jerusalem over all the nations, that the rule will go forth from there, and that peace, world peace and prosperity and all of those things will result. And that goes again to the thing where I said liberal theologians would point me like, well, that's not happening. And so your Bible's not inspired. And the pre millennials would come and go, well, no, literally, that's still just going to happen. We're still going to have the Earth ruled from Jerusalem. And that's a challenging text to be fair, as to how you're going to interpret it. You can interpret it spiritually from the cross and from all there, or that it's possibly the new heavens, new earth thing we talked about last week, the new Jerusalem, I mean, there's a bunch of different ways you can interpret it. We're not going to get into that here. But the pre millennialists look at that and be like, that's still going to happen, that's still yet to come. Beyond that, we'll get to the New Testament ones in a minute. In Daniel chapter nine and Daniel chapter twelve, there's some math that happens about 70 weeks. [00:23:09] Speaker C: I got those pulled up. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead. And time. Time. Half and time, go ahead. [00:23:17] Speaker C: 24 is kind of where it starts. 70 weeks in Messiah is what my Bible has. I'm just going to read through verse 27 real fast because you get into 62 weeks, and this is kind of their basis here. He says, 70 weeks have been decreed for your people in your holy city. Then he lists six things to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in the everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision, or to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place. So you were to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah, the prince there will be seven weeks. And 62 weeks it will be built again with plaza and moat even in times of distress. Then after the 62 weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city in the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood. Even to the end, there will be war. Desolations are determined and he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week. But in the middle of the week, he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. And on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed is poured out on one who makes desolate. You got to love the Book of Daniel because it's like the ultimate know with the kids at the very beginning of Daniel and you love it. Then you get to halfway through Daniel and you go, what am I reading? Yeah. And we kind of leave that one off. But this is what they believe is the 62 weeks and then the seven weeks. So if you're adding up weeks, you got 62, the seven weeks. And the one week, obviously this is adding to the 70 weeks. Initially, 70 weeks is referring a lot of what it's referring to in Jeremiah and such as the 70 years that they spend in captivity. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Correct. [00:24:55] Speaker C: In Babylon, however, this seems to be obviously in reference to something else. So they're looking at it saying, okay, there's the 62 weeks. The Messiah will then be cut off and have nothing. So this is the time of the tribulation. There's going to be the rapture, there's going to be a major tribulation. And then that one week period at the end is where things kind of come together. There's the big I think they call it Armageddon, right? And then there's the thousand year reign. And I could be butchering the times on some of these, but this is how they get it, is the 62, then the seven, then the one. And they're separating these times, looking at hey, I mean, look at verse 24. To finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity. Well, that hasn't fully taken place. We're going to get to the point where that takes place and he ends with and to Anoint, the most holy place. Now, place actually isn't in Scripture, so it's to Anoint, the most holy. But one of the things I was reading is like, that's used like 39 times in the Old Testament, and it's always in reference to of Holies. And so he's going to reestablish the temple in Jerusalem. That's what verse 25 is talking about. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. So it's the restoration of Jerusalem, the restoration of the temple, quote, unquote, we're going to get to this. [00:26:08] Speaker B: But. Man life is so much easier as a partial predatorist. [00:26:12] Speaker C: That's exactly it. I was thinking that because yeah, if. [00:26:16] Speaker B: You don't know what we mean, we'll get to that at the end of this. And again, a plug for Focus Plus understudied Revelation. We're going through it on there. Yeah, just interpreting a lot of this stuff, again, as not to come, but as fulfilled. It comes together very nicely. I'll just say that much. We'll get to it in a minute, but do you have more on Daniel Nine here? [00:26:38] Speaker C: There was the article that you sent, and I got to be honest, some of this stuff, it just goes in, but he says, the prophecy of Daniel 924 through 27, this is the conclusion stretches from Daniel's day to the reign of the Messiah on Earth. During that time, sin would be atoned for, which is the work of Christ on the cross and its end, the kingdom of Christ will and at its end, the kingdom of Christ will be inaugurated. Between those two events, the 69th and 70th week is a gap of unspecified duration. That's an important period of history for us, because we're in it now. That's how he ends this, this person. [00:27:10] Speaker A: So they say we're in that last week. [00:27:12] Speaker C: Correct. We're in the last week. This is kind of the dispensation or whatever. And then I think they split half the week. And so their belief is, again, there's going to be the Tribulation, there's going to be the Rapture, and then everything's going to wrap up on that 70th week. That's kind of steel manning this of saying this is where they're coming from in the Old Testament, revelations and such going forward. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Well, the Rapture things, Matthew 24, where it talks about one will be in the field or two will be in the field, one will be taken and kind of one gone, one there not the Rapture and there's nothing in Revelation anything like that at all. But, yeah, so all of that is stuff they rely on, but then Romans eleven is a big part of this. And Roman, this goes to both directions. It's the argument against and the argument for it's just on how you interpret this. Romans 11 25 26. Did you have anything else there, Joe? [00:28:18] Speaker C: No, I think he gets more into it in Romans twelve, like you said or not. Roman twelve, daniel twelve, with the time. [00:28:24] Speaker B: It comes underground, getting into that math. [00:28:27] Speaker C: Yeah, the math, exactly. So it kind of depends just on how you do the math. But I don't think there's anything else to add. It's just that that 24 through 27, if you don't know what you're looking for, and again, if you're not taking a full, in my opinion, at least a partial predatorist view to this, then it looks like Jerusalem is going to be reestablished. He's reestablishing the most holy place. [00:28:44] Speaker B: Right. This is going to happen. Then something else is going to happen, then we're going to come back 62. [00:28:50] Speaker C: Weeks, the seven weeks, the last week, it's dispensation. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:53] Speaker C: You could see in a roundabout, you can see how they come to the conclusion, correct? [00:28:58] Speaker B: Right. And that, I think, more than anything, is somebody opening up the Bible and looking that and doing the math and going, okay, let's figure out how to make this work. Here's how it's going to work. And that's a lot of eschatological. End times interpretation is trying to make pieces fit together. Eschatology is hard. Again, an eschatology that says Jesus came down here and went, oops, they're not ready for me. You're starting off on the wrong foot, I think. But you can see where they're trying to get to where they do. Romans nine through eleven is Paul dealing with God's relationship with Israel? And it starts, of course, in Romans nine of Paul saying, look, I wish I could be a curse for my brethren in the flesh, my kinsman, in the flesh, my fellow Israelites, and asking the question, has God been unfaithful to Israel? Because he ends Romans chapter eight with nothing can separate us from the love of God. But then you've got that question, well, what about the Jewish people? What about Israelites? They were God's people and are they not anymore? What's going on here? And so Romans nine through eleven is a big exposition of that whole thing. And Jacob I loved, and Esau I hated, and I chose you, and you had preference and you rejected. And there's a lot of talk about remnants in there, but the real crux of interpretation comes down at the end and you need everything in nine through eleven. So we'll talk about that here in a bit. But Romans 1125, for I do not want you brethren to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. And so he's telling the Gentiles, all right, you are being given this opportunity because of Israel's unfaithfulness and the gospel has gone to you, but this is going to make Israel jealous. And that again, kind of goes to this dispensational idea, is how they interpret this. Is God's just dealing with the Gentile world right now to make Israel jealous, so they come back again in the end and look, all Israel is going to be saved. So look, they're clearly God's prioritized people. He's just using the Gentiles to rebuild his relationship with Israel. And so that's the interpretation of this. There's obviously a counterinterpretation, which we'll get to, in fact, numerous ones. This is one of the hardest, for my money, maybe the hardest section in the entire New Testament because of the weird terminology and the shifts in ways Paul uses terminology and all that. But anything else here on this dispensational part? All right, so before we get to why we don't agree with all this stuff, the millennium, the pre millennialism, that, of course comes from Revelation chapter 20, the idea of the millennium and the 1000 year reign of Christ. So let me get there. Satan, of course, is bound. He's thrown into the abyss, shut and sealed. In Revelation 20, verse three said he would not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed. After these things, he must be released for a short time. Let's see. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until a thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection over these. The second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. When a thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, GOG and Magog to gather them together for war. The number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came upon the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire, brimstone, fire and brimstone, where the beast and the prophet, the false prophet, are also. And they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever, and then Judgment Day. So the pre millennial reading of this is we're not in the millennium right now. We are in the pre millennium. This millennium is still yet to come, this glorious reign of Christ, satan being bound. And so we're waiting for that. But before that can happen, this tribulation, there's going to be the rapture to get God's good people out. The tribulation, the destruction, the punishment for all the evil on the earth is going to happen. And then after that happens, after the tribulation, that's when the millennium, the thousand year reign of Christ, everything is great. He's going to reign on earth for a thousand years. And then at the end of that, Satan's going to come out, there's going to be a final war. He'll be destroyed, then everybody gets to go to heaven. So that's the premillennialism and again, the waiting on Israel to be restored is a big part of this, because you can't have the millennium. This all can't go well and end right until Israel is restored, because that's the end of God's plan, is getting Israel back to prominence. So, comments, questions, anything to add? [00:34:15] Speaker A: I'm just taking notes over here. [00:34:17] Speaker B: All right, we've come a long way here, so let's get to why we don't believe in all this. And what we do believe is where Israel currently stands, I guess, is where we should go with this next jack. [00:34:32] Speaker A: Did you cover Matthew 24? I know you referenced it, but like. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah, we didn't where didn't do it. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Exactly about verse 34. Surely I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Obviously read that about the destruction of Jerusalem, then that's pretty clear. But if people read it about the end times, it's like this generation, what is that referring to? [00:34:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Referring to, again, the reestablishment of Israel there, right? Yeah, is what they would say. Right. [00:35:01] Speaker C: A lot of people look at it as exactly what you were saying earlier, Will, of 1948. Okay, well, man, how long is a generation? We're pushing 100 years. That's what, 75 years. So they would say in this generation of that. So this is why I think so many people are kind of going crazy about what's going on currently. [00:35:20] Speaker A: Between timing wise, it should line up correct. [00:35:23] Speaker C: They're going okay within this generation. Well, we're in year 75. If it's going to happen, it's got to happen real soon to fit into this generation going back to the establishment of Israel. That's why you're seeing so much of this come up at this time, I think, is they're looking at this as. [00:35:37] Speaker B: The fulfillment well, in this generation. I mean, that's one that is interpreted differently by all kinds of different people trying to make it fit biblical prophecy, and Jesus not being wrong about what he had to say, because he says that a few times, he says it in Mark Nine, just about what's going to happen to this generation. This generation will not pass away before dot, dot, dot. And so some say, well, this generation is kind of like this dispensation. This time period is going to be fulfilled. And so I'm not convinced by any of those things. I think when he said this generation, he meant you guys, the people he was talking to, the people of, referring. [00:36:19] Speaker A: To the destruction of Jerusalem. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Right, right. And we'll get to that here in just a bit. So what we would hold to some people call supercessionism or replacement theology is the idea that the replacement is kind of almost like a derogatory term and that we replace the Jews and God kind of switched horses midstream. That's not accurate, because what you read there in Romans nine through eleven is the grafting of the tree. There is this olive tree, and there were natural olive branches that have been broken off the Jewish people that rejected Christ, there were wild branches that were grafted in to be part of the tree. So Gentiles added to this tree and coming together to make one tree, and it's still the same tree. God didn't chop the tree down and start over and throw the Jews out. And it's all gentiles. Now, go ahead. [00:37:16] Speaker A: I was going to say the other great place for that is Ephesians two, where Paul goes to great lengths to describe to the Gentile listeners of their readers of that letter, there is no wall of separation anymore. You come together, you're no longer separated from the and he says, you're no longer aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel. [00:37:33] Speaker B: Right? [00:37:34] Speaker A: It was a coming together, it was not a you replace the Jews, you guys are now the top dog, so to speak. He's like, no, you come together and you see that, of course, Galatians 328, you've got on here as well. Same type of thing. That's a pretty important New Testament principle that this whole dispensationalism Israel is the final great nation kind of seems to ignore in a way. [00:37:57] Speaker B: And we read there in Romans eleven, he used that term mystery. Paul uses that term a lot. And it is about the uniting of Jew and Gentile. It's about bringing them together. And so, as you said, Ephesians three talks about the mystery. Matthew three, verse nine. That's where John reminds them, hey, you think, hey, we're sons of Abraham, we've got it made. He's able to raise up from stone sons of Abraham. And so it's really more about your faith and your repentance that God's looking for. Jesus comes back to that. Paul mentions it in Romans 228. He says, circumcision isn't this outward fleshly thing. It's circumcision of the heart that God's looking for is people who are changed from the inside, and not just some physical mark that you bear, but he. [00:38:40] Speaker C: Is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart by the spirit. I mean, he literally says that Jew is the inward part of it, meaning you can bring anybody. Again, kind of raising up sons. You also have John eight on there. I don't know if you had that pulled up. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's just jesus has a back and forth with the Pharisees about Abraham that you say you're Abraham's descendants, but you don't do the things of your father if you were verse 39, if you were Abraham's, children do the deeds of Abraham. And so he says, you are doing the deeds of your father, and it's not Abraham. And so it's very much this, hey, bloodline is way less important than faith. And so, again, we mentioned Romans 228, Galatians 328. There's neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, and all those things. And that passage that gets twisted in so many ways that's what it means is God has removed that dividing wall, and Galatians four goes into that about the Son of Promise and then the first son, but then the Son of promise. It's not, ishmael it's, Isaac? It's the son by faith and not the Son by mean. A whole lot of the New Testament has to deal with this Jew Gentile thing of God bringing together and making one new family that are all children of Abraham. I mean, we sing that at Joe's favorite VBS father. Abraham has many sons, and I'm one of them, and so are you. And it's like, no, that's real. We are Abraham's descendants. We're children of Abraham through Christ and through the blood that we share and all that. And it's not this whole like, well, you Gentiles are kind of the second class citizen. I mean, like the stepchild stepchild or the thing of like, how horrific would it be if a family adopted had biologically born children and adopted kids and treated the adopted kids, like when time came to divvy up the inheritance? All right, well, you get a little bit you guys are going to get like 10% each, but the biological kids, they get 25% each. Really rotten. But that's what essentially we're claiming God is doing or they're claiming God is doing. [00:40:48] Speaker C: It goes against the pair of the workers in the vineyard, right, where it's like some came in the 11th hour. Yes, we look at that as somebody baptized on their deathbed. Sure, that too. But he's also, I think, in reference to the Gentiles coming in of like, they get the same reward. They're coming into the system late, for sure, but they're also coming in in faith. And so I think that's relevant as well from him bringing them in later, but not treating them any differently. [00:41:11] Speaker A: One, again, to bring it back to Ephesians two, he uses the phrase one body, the same body multiple times, where, again, he's making that very clear, like Ephesians 216, that he might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And then three, verse six. This is when he says that you might understand the mystery which Jack is talking about, that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body. It's one tree. It's not two separate trees. One family, one body, however you want to put it. Yeah, to me, I got to be honest, I don't see how that gets missed. What is their explanation for that? Jack? I don't know if you not to put you on the spot, but that seems to be a pretty clear New Testament teaching there. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Well, they would point to all Israel will be saved. The Gentiles are being used to make Israel envious to provoke their repentance. But that doesn't mean again, that the Gentiles are lesser. It's all right, they're getting a turn, you guys had your turn and they got priority because he talks about that earlier on in Romans Two, about like, look, you guys had the law, you guys had this opportunity. And so what advantage has the Jew? Well, in every way. I mean, you guys got to know God more closely than anybody else. He spoke to you, he gave you the law, he gave you prophets, he was hands on with you guys in ways that he wasn't with any other nation. And so, yeah, you got that head start. But interestingly Romans, Paul starts off by saying about the gospel, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel, it's the power of God, of salvation to the Jew first and then to the Greek. That's part of this of like they're getting it first and then it's going out to the Greek world and all of these other things. So they got priority, they got first crack at the kingdom. But that's what Ephesians One is all is about. Paul goes from the we, we received this, we received that, and then he goes, you also received that eventually it went to the Gentiles. And then, as you said, Ephesians two, they're brought together Ephesians three, the mystery. And so all of those passages that talk about Israel's priority end in and then we end up on the same team, we end up the same together. And so you have to read those and bring them with you to Romans nine through eleven. So when it comes to, well, all Israel will be saved, they take that as every Israelite is going to be saved by their blood. Well, if you believe that, that makes the Bible contradictory, not only against all those things we just read, but against the plan of salvation, right? [00:43:47] Speaker C: Again, you don't come in through baptism, you don't come in through faith in Christ, you come in through blood. And then some people come in through faith in Christ. But mainly the bloodline is what matters. Again, it misses the entire teaching of Jesus and them calling them out. And as we're about to get into it misses Ad 70 and how we don't really know who's a true Jew these days because of what happened in Ad 70. We'll get into that. The other thing is just to briefly mention before we move into that part of the outline, if we're good to move on, is the idea of the kingdom is really difficult. Matthew all the way throughout talks about the kingdom, the kingdom, the kingdom, right? And then we see in Colossians 113, for he rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son. A big knock against them, along with the understanding of this goes against scripture to have all of the Israelites or all the Jews come back to believe or whatnot to be saved based on bloodline. There's also the idea of, well, he's coming back to establish his kingdom. Okay, then what do you do with all the scriptures about us being in his kingdom currently? And they really don't have an answer for that one either because not that I'm aware of, because they're still waiting for the kingdom to be established and that's a big part of it. But that does kind of get us into Fellas if we're good with it. Moving into this last part of our outline here of like does God hold the Jews separate today? And are we going to see a separate kingdom where the Jews start to reign 144,000 right of the Israelites? We say they also take that from revelation, I believe, revelation Nine. So does God plan to separate the Jews today and why? [00:45:14] Speaker A: And just because I'm thinking out loud and clarifying here where this wraps into where we started the episode is because people who do believe that God still holds the Jews separate today are the ones that know. Not all of them, but a lot of them are saying need to rush to Israel's defense because they are God's people. Just again, that's me asking that out loud. Is that where this ties into the discussion about Israel and the war with. [00:45:39] Speaker B: And they have not been running right? That's been a long running thing of like not only they're our greatest ally, but that they are God's people and we owe them. And the idea of going back to Abraham, those who bless you will be blessed. They think, man, if you stand up with Israel and you fight with them, you'll be blessed because they are. I mean, there's not just the end times thing, but like this whole, hey, we don't want to know neutral or against God's people because Israel is God's people and we want the blessing of supporting God's people. And so there's a lot tied into that. So yeah, you're exactly right on that note. [00:46:20] Speaker C: So let's move into this of kind of we've already answered this. Does God hold the Jews separate today? We would say based on a correct reading of Romans eleven and just really the entire New Testament. No, I don't think that God has held them separate. [00:46:33] Speaker B: I will say this, there's the dispensational pre millennial, sorry, the DP reading of Romans 1125 and 26, about the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, all Israel will be saved. And they say that there's still this glorious reign of Israel to come and salvation of Israel to come and all that. But there are people this is debated scholarly within the churches of Christ even, but within Christendom evangelicalism. So what does that mean? And some believe that we are still in this period of the hardening of Israel and that before the end you will see Jews starting to convert to Christianity. Because right now, I mean, you think about it, there's kind of the Jews for Jesus thing or Messianic Jews or whatever. And I'm sure there's members of the church who are biologically Jewish, but it's not much. There are not a lot of Jewish Christians, right? And demographically speaking. And so this belief holds that okay, they still are, there's still going to be this big conversion of Israel to come from this view because they're pointing to the final day and all that. I don't really think that holds up. But again, that's not uncommon and that's not even outside the churches of Christ. [00:47:50] Speaker C: Well, Jack, let me get your thoughts on the eleven Romans 1128 and 29, because I think this would tie in in something that I've been curious about as well. From the standpoint of the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake, talking about the Jews at this point, but from the standpoint of God's choice, they're beloved for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. I'll continue. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient because of the mercy shown to you. They also may be shown mercy going back to that, spurring them on to jealousy. But what would you say to that if it almost makes it sound know God's choice, like he still loves them, he still wants them to be saved. And I think they bring this in to say god hasn't abandoned his people that he took from the beginning, starting with not the beginning, but starting with Abraham. He hasn't abandoned them, he still loves them. They're beloved for the sake of the Father. So based on Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and twelve sons of Israel, right, like these people are still beloved, god's going to pull them in. So when they bring that in, what would you say to that? [00:48:54] Speaker B: Just say keep reading verse 30, just as you speaking to the Gentiles, as Paul is doing in this section, as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their the Jews disobedience. So these also the Jews once again now have been disobedient that because of the mercy shown to you, they also may now be shown mercy. And it's kind of this taking turns thing of there were the Jewish people and the Jews were disobedient. That opens this door. And you see that with the apostles, the Book of Acts and all that going to the Gentiles, paul and turning to the Gentiles, this opens the door for the Gentiles and they're receiving mercy. And this is for the Jews to look and be like, oh look, God is favoring them now. God has accepted them now. And so this is the new way that God is operating. There has been a shift to the Messiah and the kingdom of Christ and all that. And so when it talks about in verse 28 and 29, they're enemies for your sake, but God still loves them. Yeah, they're in the wrong place right now. They're on the wrong side of this equation so that they're having the opportunity to be brought back in. And so that goes back to the whole all Israel will be saved again, that can't mean all of them again. That would go against the plan of salvation, that would go against so many other things. But throughout Romans nine through eleven, he's talking about the remnant, the remnant, the remnant. God always leaves a remnant. And throughout Israel's history there was a remnant. I mean, even from the selection of the brothers Jacob and Esau, jacob is kind of a remnant in there. And you go into just the different eras when Elijah's there 7000 have not bowed the knee, that's remnant of Israel wandering in the wilderness, a remnant, a whole generation had to die off and a remnant gets to go in. And even if it's a generational remnant and the remnant returning from captivity and all of those things, there's always been this remnant. And so when it talks about all Israel will be saved, you could say it was the full remnant. Some people say it's a spiritual Israel, which is the combination of Jew and Gentile because he kind of goes back and forth with those definitions in Romans of spiritual Israel and physical Israel. There's different ways to interpret that. That don't mean, hey, everybody who has a drop of Jewish blood in them is going to heaven because God just picked them and they're his favorite people. And so all of those are valid. All of those are, I don't know, interpretations that have backing. But you kind of pick which one you think. I'm not sure which one I prefer. I do think this I will say in Matthew ten, verses 23, jesus talked about, you will not finish going through let's see, I want to read it so I don't misquote it. Matthew 1023, Jesus said, whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of man comes. And so there's kind of this plan of the preaching of the gospel and the return of Jesus. You had mentioned earlier the 144,000, that's twelve times, twelve times 1000, which is very much kind of a fullness of all of the twelve. And you've got the twelve tribes. There 12,000 of Reuben, 12,000 of and so I think that would be the all Israel, all of the remnant, everybody, all of the Israelites that were going to be saved leading up to the destruction of the Temple. I already kind of showed our hand earlier. I more and more all the time buy into the partial predatorist view, which is to say that 90% to 95% of New Testament discussion about things that a lot of people take as the end times were actually fulfilled at 70 Ad in the destruction. Of the temple and destruction of Jerusalem. Now that doesn't mean at all. There are full predatorists who say everything's been fulfilled, jesus isn't coming back. No, he's still coming back. There's still a resurrection of the dead, there's still the judgment day and all those things are yet to come. But a lot of the stuff pointing forward in the New Testament, and I would say Daniel nine, daniel twelve, the 70 weeks, all that timing, if you want to get pretty literal with those numbers, it lines up best with the destruction of the temple in 70 Ad. The 144,000. This all Israel being saved is every Jewish person that was going to come to the church and be pulled separate from Jerusalem as Jesus warned them to do in Matthew 24, to get out of Jerusalem and be saved. All of them were. And then Jerusalem was flattened, the temple was destroyed, and there's no more Jew Gentile. They don't have a question anymore of who are God's people because the temple is gone. There's only one way left. And so that is that mystery, the bringing together of Jew and Gentile. And one guy commentator I was listening to even said so much as post Ad 70, there's not Jew and Gentile anymore. That distinction does not matter, there's only Christian. And you might think that's taking it a little too far, but I really don't think it is. [00:54:07] Speaker C: But when you consider the full destruction of Jerusalem and what actually happened, all their records were destroyed. Who's part of who? You can't have a Jewish system where you don't have Levites and a Levitical priest system and everything else. They don't know who's who because that's. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Part of the dispensationalism is at the restoration of Israel as God's people. They believe the temple will be rebuilt, they believe the priesthood will be reestablished. And you're exactly right. I mean, how you can have a Levitical priesthood. [00:54:36] Speaker C: Yeah. How would you know who is who? And if you read Revelation through the partial predator's view, what you realize is the temple being destroyed was a huge deal because everything, as long as they had the temple, they really believed they were God's people. See, we got the temple, we can always point to the temple. So when that comes in as leveled, there are crazy, crazy stories of people trying to rebuild the temple through the last 2000 years of like fire coming up from the ground and killing people. I don't think God intends to build. [00:55:02] Speaker B: The temple again because that's a whole other rabbit hole. But this is documented Roman history. Julian the apostate, if anybody wants to go google that, was a Roman emperor. After Constantine had Christianized the Roman Empire, he said no, we're going back and we're going to reestablish everybody's gods, including the Jewish god and the temple. And they went to rebuild it. And as Joe said, they had to abandon the project because people kept dying. [00:55:26] Speaker C: Of really weird things. It's I think God has made it very clear this will not ever stand. And I think it's the same thing with was it Babylon or Jericho? I think both of those, like it's not going to be rebuilt and they never were. So when God says that, he takes it pretty seriously. And I don't think there's any reason to rebuild the temple because we know Jesus is the fulfillment of it. I preached on that. That's on Focus plus with Jesus being the tabernacle and the fulfillment of the temple with the lampstand and the bread of life and cleansing the giver of living water and the cleansing and the Lamb of God and all of those things, jesus his living fulfillment of it. And we also know that we now are the temple in a way of we house the Holy Spirit within us. So that's been done away with. And what would be the point of reestablishing it if not to bring the Jews back into know relationship with God? What you have to understand is, and this is what I came to more and more, the more we've studied Revelation, God, we look at, well boy, Rome is what put Jesus to death. Rome is the one that killed Jesus. And everybody who reads Ad 96 version of Revelation, that's kind of what they look at. No, the Jews put Jesus to death and that's made very clear is you put Jesus to death, you have killed him and you rejected the Son of God. And then not only did he, he didn't just kill him for that. Not only did you kill the son of persecuted, you're now persecuting the bride, you're now putting to death his bride. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Honestly, that's a problem gets into the unforgivable sin of they saw Jesus, they rejected him. He said, okay, you can be forgiven for that. They saw the Spirit working through the apostles and all that and killed them. So rejected them unforgiven. [00:57:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:02] Speaker B: And they continued and not just rejected, but persecuted. And that's when you read through Revelation, when it talks about the city where our Lord was crucified, we know where that was, where it talks about the blood of the martyrs and the saints. Well, Jesus accused Jerusalem of that at the end of Matthew 23, before everything he says in Matthew 24, he ends Matthew 23 with, you guys have killed the prophets, you guys have all this blood on your hands. And Revelation keeps coming back to that. [00:57:26] Speaker C: Going back to Abel. Yeah. [00:57:28] Speaker B: And so again, this is probably a minority interpretation in the churches of Christ, but to me it connects dots so much better than just having these disparate pieces throughout the Bible of, well, here's the Jew gentile thing. But then Rome is going to come in and 300 years from now this is what we're focused on. No, this is all very organically connected in a way that I think really flows together. Well, we don't have time for a whole class on Revelation. But if you subscribe to Focus plus you can listen to, you have access. [00:57:59] Speaker A: To a whole class on Revelation. [00:58:01] Speaker B: You can start now and catch up. I think there's already ten weeks posted. [00:58:07] Speaker C: Getting back to the Revelation, the thousand year reign, we talked about the 144,012 x twelve by 1000, the thousand is this. It's intended to represent a very long period of time, right? So it's the completion of look, every Jew who's going to be saved up to the destruction of Jerusalem, 144,000 is going to because right after this, in chapter nine, he talks about all the tongues and everybody that comes to tribes and peoples and such. So it's clearly talking about, I think, the Jewish brethren who will be saved, and then there's everybody else who's going to be saved as well. Fast forward to chapter 20. It's talking about this thousand year. First off, it doesn't just say Jesus is going to reign 1000 years. It says we will reign with him for a thousand of years. When you understand what a thousand means, representing this completion and such, it makes a lot more sense that the Christians rather that have been persecuted, go from underneath the altar, how long, O Lord, to being at the end, they're reigning with Christ forever. That is a much better picture than, well, we're going to go through this tribulation. There's going to be the rapture, things like that. They bring in Matthew 24. Look, there's going to be some who were taken. That's a poor translation, taken. Received is the same Greek word. So one's going to be received and one's not. I do believe that that's more talking about that in Matthew 24. So we didn't get through all of them and really breaking down Daniel nine. Maybe we can do that in the deep end a little bit more, but when you start looking at it from that point and recognizing the Jew gentile separation and the end of the Jewish system in 80, 70, it makes a lot more sense as to why no, they are not the people of God now. And this new Jerusalem, when it's talking about the new Jerusalem, that's New Jerusalem coming down, end of Revelation. This is as we talked about in the deep know God bringing heaven down, right. This New Jerusalem concept here. And so they look at it as, oh, he's going to reestablish the temple. Why would he? Jesus is the temple, right? Or the fulfillment of that in that I I don't know what you're going to hear a lot of people say, is it's anti Semitic? You're saying they're not the people of God? That's anti Semitic. In no way are we anti Semitic. It's kind of the racism against the Jewish nation. It's not that at all. But we can say, I don't believe they're still the people of God when they are literally claiming there's other Messiahs we're waiting on the Messiah. You can listen to prominent Jewish members who are literally I don't want to upset people, but Ben Shapiro went on Joe Rogan and basically called Jesus a traitor against Rome who was trying to stir up stuff. He was pretty much a criminal and. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Got who deserved what he mean. You read the Talmud in writings about Jesus. They do not view him lightly. For the people of God, it is still well held that he's not somebody. [01:00:54] Speaker C: They you know, when we're coming around to well, they're still the people of God. You rejected the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of the living God, who the whole point of the church being built in Matthew 16 was on Peter's confession is, you are the Son of God. [01:01:09] Speaker B: They all rejected that points to Mark three. Behold, they said, your mother and your brother and sisters are waiting on you. Jesus said, Behold, they're all around me. It's those who do the will of the Father. Every time he had a chance to emphasize yeah, by blood, everybody's okay? He said, no, you guys aren't the sons of Abraham. John told them, God can raise up sons of Abraham from stones. Those who do the will of My know just all of the chances he had to be like, yeah, you guys get special privilege. He said you don't. In fact, you have a greater duty and responsibility because of the benefits given to you. And that's, again, everything fleshed out in Romans. And so there's so much more we could go into. We didn't really get into the millennium and all that. There's a lot of questions about that, but I think just generally, I feel like we've established the point, like there's not some special changing of the guard yet to happen. Is there anything else we need to cover before we get out of here? [01:02:11] Speaker A: I want to shout out you guys for the master class. That was I think this for me has been probably the most educational episode of Think Deeper. For me personally, again, didn't talk a lot. I think there's a lot of complex things that I was learning right alongside the listeners. Shout out to both you guys for I think we've talked about this before. Stuff like this, we can have a tendency to just let's just avoid that. It's difficult, it's complex. Let's just run away from it. Let's just not really deal with it. That's never been a position for us on Think Deeper. That's certainly never been a position that any of us three have held. And so personally, I want to thank you guys for covering that, because it is complex, it is very difficult, and as I started the episode with it's timely. Right now, there's a lot of voices that are saying and teaching things that just aren't true. So again, shout out to you guys. [01:03:01] Speaker C: I appreciate that's. Mainly Jack, not me, but so shout out Jack. What we'll say is if you believe in this, we may have some listeners that very much are DPS, right? We want to hear from you. Did we represent it well? [01:03:14] Speaker B: Are there challenging anti straw man on this show? So we don't want to beat up on any straw men. If there's anything we need to revisit and maybe misunderstood some things from yeah. [01:03:26] Speaker C: Contact us, let us know. Facebook Focus plus message us, email us, whatever you got to do. If you do feel like, hey, that's not right, you didn't do this justice. Or what would you say about this passage, please let us know. As we said at the beginning, this is a very common thing to believe and I'm sure there are those in the Church of Christ that maybe haven't been taught anything other than that maybe coming from different denominations and such. And so you may say, wow, we were always taught this. What would you do? This passage, please, again comment, let us know. We would be happy to discuss it in the deep end. If we get enough comments on Facebook, then we may open it up for a freebie for everybody to enjoy. But yeah, that's all I was going to say is I just want to make sure we are steel manning this to the best of our ability. We tried to really do the research and to think about it from their point of view. This is complex. There are people that disagree within this subject, on this topic. They all agree in DP to a certain degree, but the intricacies some people disagree on. So let us know. [01:04:30] Speaker B: No, I think we'll wrap right there and we'll talk to you guys next week.