Q&A: PM Worship, CoC Leaders, and More

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast. I'm your co host, Will Harib, joined as always by Jack and Joe Wilkie, coming to you the day after Christmas. Hope everybody had a wonderful holiday weekend, enjoying some time with family, friends. I know a lot of will probably traveling today. If you're listening to it on the Tuesday the 26th, we appreciate you spending some of your holiday with us. We do have Jack back as well. He was not here for our deep end segment. For those of you who are able through focus plus, to be able to watch that, we are very grateful to have Jack back for today's episode. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Got it. Such a great episode today. Q and a episode. It's always great to kind of talk about what are some things that our listeners have questions about and to really get, again, kind of just, it's great because with think deeper, of course, the episodes, we are typically the ones that are the idea fuel for it. And so with an episode like this, it's great because we get idea fuel from other sources, from our listeners. And so stay tuned. We're going to have a good episode, answering some questions, a few things to talk about. Before we get into that, though. Obviously, it's the end of the year, people making kind of financial plans. Giving is on a lot of people's mind right now. So as always, we want to make sure everybody's aware that we are a nonprofit that is run primarily on donations. Obviously, we have a bookshop and stuff that we try to sell some things, focus plus, of course, but the majority of the way that we're able to continue doing stuff like this, the podcasts and digital media and things like that, is through donations. And so if you're looking for a place to, is the, is the place you can go if you're able to. Of course, we're grateful for anything as far as that goes. And then as far as an exciting announcement, we did just unroll the renew curriculum through Focus press, a full four quarter, basically curriculum plan for your congregation. We are very excited about that. Four different bible class materials that again, keeps you occupied for a whole year. You've got exegetical biblical quarter with Mark, with Jack's walking with the word mark, gospel of Mark guide. We've got a full quarter of kind of like new christian kind of first principle stuff, reestablishing the foundation, the basics. Why are we members of the church? That kind of thing. With starting line with my book and then my dad's book starting line, got a whole nother quarter of christian evidences with my dad's convicted and then a whole nother quarter of Jack's church reset book, kind of talking about how do we function as a church? Shouldn't church be more all the stuff that we. A lot of stuff we talked about on this podcast. So clearly you can see four quarters of a kind of wide range of topics that we just think is going to be perfect for a lot of congregations. And so it's customizable. However many students you need, you just give us a call and we will send the stuff your way and you'll pretty much have everything taken care of that way. So again, that's the exciting piece of news as we head into the new year. The renew curriculum. If you do have any questions about it, reach out to us on Facebook or hit up Jack's email or give us a call. The focus press phone number, you just have it memorized. 615-324-5870 I think if you have any questions about that. But with that, fellas, let's go ahead and get into the questions. We've got a good list of right around eight or ten questions or so that we're going to try to hit. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Unless I want to say by introduction, we did the 100 questions, 100 minutes for our 100th episode, and we solicited, hey, what do you guys want us to ask on this episode? And all of these questions came from submissions for that. And we were like, those are really good questions. They are not questions we can answer in 1 minute. So we're going to save them. And so we want to thank everyone who submitted them for those. We've kind of been sitting on them for a few weeks now. Obviously, that was a number of episodes ago, but, yeah, we were kind of chuckling like, yeah, no, I don't think we can answer what to do about Sunday night service in 1 minute, so we kind of stash those away for later. But again, thank you to everyone who might not have got the spirit of that episode at the time, but gave us content for this one anyway. [00:04:26] Speaker C: All right, fellas, let's go ahead and get into it. And question number one is a doozy. Does the Church of Christ have a cult of personality problem where the ideas of certain preachers, thought leaders, are put on a pedestal? Yeah, have a cult of personality problem where the ideas of certain preachers or thought leaders are put on a pedestal. How do we feel about this one, fellas? [00:04:51] Speaker A: Joe doing the old classic, he gets to ask the question. [00:04:53] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. [00:04:54] Speaker A: He can answer those who ask the. [00:04:56] Speaker C: Question control the narrative. [00:04:58] Speaker B: You go ahead, will. Okay. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll go first. Appreciate that line of fire here. So I think my answer is probably a little bit different. What these guys expect. I would say slightly yes. I don't think this particular aspect is quite as big of a problem, and I don't know what these guys are going to say. Maybe they don't think it's a big problem at all. Cult of personality problem. I'm thinking of, like, are there certain preachers that their thoughts get put on a much higher pedestal or certain big lectureship guys? And I think that's slightly a problem. I got to be honest. I think the bigger problem is something that we've talked about before. It's kind of fruit of the same tree, where kind of the bigger overall problem to me is kind of just the lectureship circuit name dropping, good old boys kind of preacher club thing that so many preachers aspire to get into. I think that's the bigger problem. And you say maybe that's the same. I think they're similar, they're kind of related as far as the cult, but I guess I don't see a Mount Rushmore of guys in the church of Christ that everybody. There's people that people look up to. My dad is one of them. I don't want to drop other people's names, but there's people that we can all think of that are a lot of people highly respect. I don't think it's a problem to highly respect people. Again, the bigger problem that I see is, again, kind of this lectureship, let me name drop people. Good old boys club that a lot of preachers like that is their goal. They want to get in that club. They want to get in that circle of invited to all the lectureships and big keynote speaker on this thing. And the problem with that, the reason why I see that as a problem is because I think it makes for an unhealthy lack of dialogue, really, because you're kind of supposed to say all the right things. You're not really supposed to say anything. That's different. I think it fosters the church, cancel culture quite a bit that we've talked about. And I think it kind of emasculates preachers of their boldness. Because again, it's like, if I say this, is that going to put me at risk to miss out on the, again, good old boys club? I don't know any other way to put it. And so, again, a lot of preachers, especially young preachers, I think, kind of operate under that premise. I guess. And so that would be, to me, the bigger problem. That's kind of, I guess, a fruit of this tree. What do you guys have to say to this one? [00:07:16] Speaker C: I don't think they actually think they have the conscious thought of I will be kicked out of the club as much as. And this is why I answer. I just put down absolutely on my notes when I was answering this. I think they look at and go, does it align with so and so? Does it align with what he says? I watch this video or I listen to this podcast or I know, brother so and so and does it align with what he says? I think that's more likely than I don't want to be a part of the, don't want to be kicked out as much as it just doesn't align with people that I know. I agree with everything that they agree with type of thing. So do I see this as a cult person? Yeah, I do. Again, I'm not going to name drop, but we were sent a bazillion and one videos on specific podcasts we've done from specific people in the church. Have you watched this? Yeah, I have. Just because he says it doesn't make it right. We've seen that plenty. Again, we've been sent plenty. We've been told to read plenty of things, plenty of articles, books, whatever it is from specific brotherhood members know, again, we're brothers in Christ. There's nothing against them. But I think people are very quick to run to those specific sources because brother so and so said it. So do think that there's a cult personality? Yeah, I do. Personally, I do. Jack, what do you think? [00:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to kind of split the difference between what you guys are saying. Is there? Yeah, I think so. But I have a hard time saying it's a negative thing because it's an inevitable thing of human nature to gravitate towards leaders, towards kind of the tastemakers, towards the influencers, whatever you want to call them, before that kind of got taken over by TikTok. But people that, again, we're going to look to this guy for his word and what he has to say. And, yeah, that can go too far. That's one corinthians one. I'm of Paul, I'm of Cephas, I'm of Christ, I'm of apollos. You don't want that. And I'm of this guy from this preaching school, this guy from this lectureship, this guy from the other thing. But you're always going to have people that drive things. I mean, you look at the history of the churches of Christ, Campbell and Stone, but then even lipscomb, and I'm drawing a blank, know Foy, Wallace and all the names through the church of Christ's history, there's always those guys, and that's early church, the early church fathers. You got all those guys, the Clements and the Tertullian and Irenaeus and, you know, names, because that's how humankind works. And so that's not necessarily a negative thing. One of the things that we're critical of is we feel like we've got an elite that has done a poor job of helping people, and it has become a self serving elite. Again, about the lectureship circuit, all the stuff will was talking about, and these are the guys that get so mad when we criticize. And no, things are going great in the church. Well, here's a picture. We talked about this a million times. Here's a picture of such and such conference, and I see all these christians here, and people will tell you the church is doing bad. [00:10:05] Speaker C: Like, well, it is. Okay? [00:10:06] Speaker B: And just because you benefit from this thing doing really well doesn't mean that things aren't going know, it's kind of, who are we doing this for? Are we doing it for the people who are going to see us in the headlines? Or are we doing this for the average Joe in the member of the church in the middle of nowhere? And so, watch yourself, average Jimmy. [00:10:29] Speaker C: Sorry, Jimmy's out there. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Sorry for the Jimmy's, but I don't. [00:10:33] Speaker C: Feel as bad for the Jimmy's. [00:10:34] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you're not an average Joe, I guess. [00:10:37] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Well, I didn't say which direction I was going, so this is interesting stuff to me. On the 100th episode, you said, what book has influenced you more than any others? And I said, the machiavellians. And it's a political theory book, but it's about all of this stuff about elites. And one of the things that they say is really important for an organization to last, or a government or anything, is a circulation of elites, is for new people to be able to come in with new ideas and challenge the people that are there. And so you don't just end up with this old, stale thing like you see in the Senate now, where all the leaders are 85 years old. That's not going to last. You can just see this is going to collapse. And the same thing of, like, if you have to come in and toe the line and kind of bow the knee to, oh, I'll just say all the right things so I can get on this thing. That's a dying, decaying structure. And I think in a sense it is. So that's a long answer to say yes. I think you're both right. There is an elite. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. What it has become is, or like what's being done with it is. [00:11:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I would agree with that. And people will say, we're just going to get ahead of it. Well, you're just jealous. You're not on those things. No, not at all. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Just say yes. That's what it is. Let's go with that. [00:11:50] Speaker C: We'll go with that. Yeah, we've heard that one a bunch. But I agree with you that elites will always rise. It's just we need elites who are willing to accept, like you said, maybe not challenge new ideas in terms of going liberal or whatever people want to say, but that have some thoughts that may differ. And that's what we try to do. We're thinking deeper. And sometimes people can be very appreciative, they can hate it, but we are trying to think a little bit deeper on some of these things. [00:12:15] Speaker A: One, again, there's nothing wrong with having a guy that you highly respect, that an issue, biblical issue, comes up and you're like, I want to know what this guy has to say about it because you highly respect him on a lot of other stuff, of course. Yeah, I think that there's nothing wrong with that. Again, for me, the bigger problem is the culture that it kind of fosters and the circuit and again, the way preachers can kind of, again, not say certain things because they don't want to put themselves in jeopardy of missing out on that club, I guess, if that makes sense. So good question, though. It's a good question to start. I'll ask the next question and I'll make Joe go first on this one. [00:12:57] Speaker C: Sorry. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Why should, why should I stay in the church of Christ? Is the question. Why should I stay in the church of Christ? [00:13:06] Speaker C: Joe, what have you got? Good question, great question. And some people are probably going to listen and go, well, why wouldn't you? I think, know we've talked about some struggles in the church of Christ, but here's why I say I had a shout out. Joey got a good friend and he was kind of asking question of, have you ever thought about leaving the church of Christ? Looking at some of the other denominations or whatever it is, have you ever thought about leaving? I said, to be honest with you, no, I never have. And the reason why somebody should stay. The reason why I stay is I do believe we have the gospel salvation down correctly. I think the foundation that we are on is not correct. Now, what we choose to do with it, some disagree. We challenge some of those things. But the foundation that we are built on as the church of Christ, I think is solid. You could say five steps to salvation. Yes, sure, we can go round and round on whether that's exactly it, but I do think those components of the repentance, confession, baptism, right? I think that's right. And so what I had written in my notes, as I was answering this ahead of time, what I had said is many others get sanctification, and denominations may get sanctification right, but they get justification wrong. We get justification right. We don't always get sanctification right, and one is a lot easier to fix than the other, in my opinion, having people who sanctify right who try to live for Christ but never got it back to the beginning at the basics, their foundation is cracked. It's a lot harder. They could build a mansion, but if the foundation is cracked, it will fall apart. Whereas we, I think, have the proper foundation, and we aren't always building the mansion the way that I think we should, but at least the foundation is right. So even if we were to scrape down the shack or whatever else and build up, we have a solid foundation upon which we can build all sorts of ideas. Going back to scripture being very bible based, people who very much care about getting things right from the word of God and those who get salvation right and get justification right, I think it's a lot easier to tweak our sanctification process than to go back and to redo the justification process, if that makes sense. So that would be my answer. [00:15:07] Speaker B: I would reverse engineer and say, why would you want to leave? And I'm not saying why would you? No, literally, why would you? Because there are compelling things, and we've talked before about people going to the high church thing, the Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic, that there's just a feel there that they want, or the regular confession or things like that. And I think you can look at that. And number one, you always have to remind yourself, the grass isn't always greener. There's things that look great, but that's going to be, you're trading a set of problems for another set of problems, right? I mean, you think about all the people that went catholic and just heard Pope Francis say, yeah, we're going to bless gay. Does that. How's that working out? For you kind of thing. So yeah, you trade in sets of problems, but when you see those things that you want to leave for and you think those are a positive change, all right, work towards that in what you have, grow what you have, rather than I'm going to go where they give me the best package deal. Well, again, you're going to have to go there and change problems and work on those. So work on the problems that you have here with the good that you already have. Like you said, the good foundation. [00:16:09] Speaker C: And here's another element to that, and then we'll get to you. In the church, we don't have a hierarchical structure going in terms of the synods or synods or whatever you call them, and bishops and things like that. If you go to enact change in the Catholic Church, how far are you going to go? You know what I mean? Whereas in a congregation to congregation level, because of our autonomy and because you can go to the elders in the church and go, hey, I'm studying this and I really feel passionate about this. What do you think about it? They are going to open the Bible now, they may not agree with you, they may not do what you're asking, but there is an opportunity to engage and to change things at your congregation at the local level. You would never get in most other churches. They're not going to listen to that as you see the scriptures really playing out in your life. And I think that's a huge plus. [00:16:53] Speaker B: For the Church of Christ. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with both of those things. The only thing I would add is from my study, without a doubt, that the Church of Christ is the quote unquote church that most closely aligns with the New Testament. And I think that's something that the evidence for that. And Joey, when you were talking to us about your friend Joey and his observations about the Church of Christ, I think the biggest checkmark in our favor is something that he, as an outsider looking in, pointed out. We open our Bibles for know when it comes to we're trying to find an answer. I do believe the Church of Christ does the best job of. Of anybody that I've studied of. Well, what do we think about something? Let's go to the Bible for the answer. Let's go to scripture for the answer. Let's go to the New Testament. Let's go to acts for the answer. I've of course got my fair share of complaints with how the Church of Christ does some things, and I don't arrogantly believe that we have 100% of everything right. But I do believe that from my study, we are by far the closest to what we see in the New Testament as the church. And that again, we use the Bible, we use the New Testament to make sure that we're set up the right way. Elders and deacons and men leading in worship. And again, the instruments and things like that. Again, I think I've got my fair share of complaints with kind of the way we do some things and attitudes and things like that. But as far as, I guess, to Jack's point, why should you stay? It's kind of where else are you going to go that is more solid, that is more biblically founded? Joe, I love the way that you emphasize foundation because that is what we have in the Church of Christ is the most solid foundation. I think this is one of these. I'm very curious to know what prompted the question, but it was submitted and this is all we have. So any other thoughts on this one, guys? Hey, Jack, I think it's your turn to lead a question. [00:18:43] Speaker B: It is my turn to lead a question. What is the biggest challenge facing congregations in 2024? And in ten words, why now? We did an episode, I think it started 2023. Biggest challenges facing the church? I don't know. It's been so long. [00:18:56] Speaker A: It was started 2022. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Okay. So it was one of the first episodes we ever did then. Wow. On challenges facing the church. So maybe it's a good time for an update. So, biggest challenges going into the new year, Lord willing, and ten words. Why? [00:19:10] Speaker A: When I first read it, I read it as biggest problems facing the church. That's not actually what the question says. It's what's the biggest challenge facing congregations in 2024? And the reason will, you're splitting hairs. My two answers for that would be different as far as the church as a whole. Like christians, christian families, I think those challenges center around the home personally and parents and kind of their lack of a plan for their kids. We talked about a lot about that recently. So anyway, that would be my answer if the question was reversed. My answer for the question of what's the biggest challenge facing congregations in 2024 is a very lame and boring answer because we've talked about it a lot. But to me, poor, unqualified and apathetic leadership will almost always be the biggest problem facing congregations moving forward. Again, we've talked about that a lot. There's nothing spicy there. I personally don't see a bigger problem facing congregations themselves. As we head into the new year and as we head into the next five years, decades, whatever, than the fact that we have, in a lot of cases, not always very grateful for the qualified elders that are out there serving and doing a great job at shepherds. But again, we're fooling ourselves if we don't believe that we have an eldership crisis. And again, unqualified men leading, apathetic men leading a lot of congregations. And so I think that is, you see a business that's kind of flailing, losing a lot of money. You see a sports team that is just really struggling. You don't start at the bottom, you start looking at the top, and the fish rots from the head down. And so, yeah, I think the biggest problem facing congregations moving forward will continue to be, again, unqualified, apathetic leaders until that problem is fixed. [00:20:49] Speaker C: So I take a more on the nose 2024 approach, political division, I think breaking unity. And in ten words or less, I got five. The election is coming up. That would be, my answer is 2024 is going to determine a lot. There are those that absolutely cannot stand Donald Trump. There are those that are majorly big on Donald Trump. There are those that still maybe support Biden and others that don't. And this is all within the church. And we are becoming more radicalized in the culture where our positions have drifted and drifted and drifted, where we're like a football field's length apart. We're no longer within shaking hands distance, maybe the way we used to be back in Kennedy days or whatever it is. We are very polarized. And churches are going to have to handle this. I could see another resurgence of COVID I could see another Black lives Matter resurgence, something along those lines, because it's happened the last election cycles. I do think that there will be something big that happens in 2024 that will test. And you look at what happened with COVID in 2020. Churches lost their mind. We've banged on this drum for a long time. Churches lost their mind. And you got a lot more people like us that, in my opinion, I grew more radicalized, that it's like, absolutely not. We will never do that again. We will never make that mistake again. And the christian nationalism that's kind of risen out of this is very interesting to see what's kind of coming. And if you follow on Twitter and things like that, christian nationalism is going to be a big deal. As to this election cycle, what we're pushing for. Should we be trying to turn the nation back toward Christ and christians? Yeah, we should. How we go about it is very different. And so I do think facing congregations, you're going to have those in the church that are like basically preaching the gospel of Trump. And that's not what we're here to do. We're not talking about. I'm not even taking aside politically, I just think that has potential to create serious division over this next year as to what we decide. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Right. Because it already did. It already did history on your side there. [00:22:47] Speaker C: And this could be one of the biggest elections of our lifetime, to be honest with you, with the state of the nation, this could be one of the biggest elections of our lifetime. I foresee there being division and a broken unity coming up in 2024 if we're not careful. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good answer. And I don't know that it can be avoided. Politics touches so much of life that it's going to come out. [00:23:10] Speaker C: It's been coming to a head, honestly. [00:23:12] Speaker B: It's been coming to a head. Yeah. I'm more on wills, obviously, leadership is, as I've said before, when you're kind of working towards a book on a certain topic, that's all you see is everything having to do with that. More than anything. My question is, who's going to fix this? As we said earlier, there's a lot of people that tell you there's nothing needs to be fixed yet. Come on now. I mean, the youth decline rate, the lack of eldership in so many churches, and who's going to fix it? And I have had multiple people contact us, whether listeners or friends, and just from different places where they're in a congregation, they really want to help. They want to drive things better. There's no elders. There's no path to elders. There's nobody there that can be qualified for elders anytime soon. And these people are very involved and want to help. And they're 30, and obviously they don't want to take over and run the church. And there's a lot of people, the older people looking at, well, you're 30, you don't get to, but it's like, but they're the ones that are engaged in trying to lead this to a better place. So what do you do? And I mean, people that multiple, again, literally have said, even if I were going to be an elder, I can't be one for like 20 years minimum, if things go well and I'm faithful and all that stuff. So what do I do? And so we can't leave things unfixed for the next 20 years. But you got so many churches where nobody's leading, nobody to Will's point of the leadership is the issue. Yeah. And more acutely, I really think there's a good generation of future elders coming up of people who, because you have to start thinking about it at 25, 30 years old, and when you've got guys that are doing that, the seeds are planted. They're not going to be there until they're 45 or 50. That's a really big problem. And again, because they can't be, the people who are older than them are not going to. And I'm not saying get out of the way, let us run the show. But on the other hand, if we can't yet, you've got to do something. But they don't want to. I mean, there's a real crisis here that I think gets better eventually, and right now it's in a really bad place. [00:25:12] Speaker A: And that's what I was getting at, too, even related to it with the homes thing of men leading their family and wives fulfilling their roles as well. That problem is compounded when you have leadership that is not preaching that leadership that is more worried about other things. And so, yeah, it's a home issue as well, again, if we're talking just about christians in general, but I think it is further compounded by the fact that a lot of congregations are led by leaders who don't teach that stuff because it steps on people's toes. And so, yeah, Jack, obviously I'm with you there. [00:25:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And to go on that just a little bit more, knowing what time it is, and that goes with Joe's point a little bit, understand politics, too. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:54] Speaker B: And it's not time to rehearse mechanical instruments of worship. Again, for the 800th time, nobody even says that anymore. Mechanical. We're the only people that even say that. That shows you how out of time that we are. And I mean, you've got just churches where it's playing the hits every single week. And I've written on this, we've talked about it like you've got to equip people for a rapidly changing world. And that's the biggest challenge facing churches is whether they're going to or not. There's all, these are challenges anyway, who's got the. And we're actually going on to a series of them. But let's start, I was going to. [00:26:26] Speaker C: Say there's kind of three in a row here that are all going to run together and kind of flow together. First is what are advantages or disadvantages of small groups rather than a congregational worship service? How would you sell it to a reluctant eldership in a respectful manner. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Let's do the second one first before we get to. Yeah, because I think it makes more sense. Go ahead. [00:26:50] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, I'll read that one. The older tradition of coming together for evening worship is a congregation versus the newer tradition of canceling evening worship for small groups. Question mark. I'm firmly on the side of congregational evening worship for many reasons. The person says so. They're very much on congregational. The first one seems to be, hey, we're already ready to sell this. How do we start selling the small group concept here? And so there's that old tradition of, again, of standard evening worship with everybody. The new tradition of canceling for these small group practices, life groups, a lot of them are called fellas. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Where do we fall? [00:27:21] Speaker C: How do we feel? [00:27:22] Speaker A: Yeah, so this question is essentially asking us to kind of take a side on it. I've never been involved in a small group personally. The congregations that I've been to, that's never been something that we've done. I've heard of it being done. I've heard of it being done really well. I've heard of it being done kind of not so well. And so I don't really know how we're going to talk about this one without getting into the one that Joe asked a second ago. The advantages, disadvantages, I don't know if we want to blend them kind of here. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Well, and the third one too. Let's just throw the third one in as well. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, I'll run through it. So the third one, basically this person asked, why is there an obsession with a PM service unless a congregation has many night shifters who need a PM option before the next shift starts, instead of just longer worship in the morning. So let's tackle the small group ones first, and then, like Jack said, we'll go to that one to wrap up. So, advantages, disadvantages of small groups. I'll start there and then I'll kind of answer where I fall on it again and take it with a grain of salt. I've never been involved in a small group myself, just, this is just from experience or not from experience, from what I've heard other people have talked about. So to me, the kind of the advantages are that it theoretically would create an atmosphere where you can more easily get to know members in a larger congregation, and then theoretically you're going to have deeper and more personal Bible study together as a congregation. That I think is probably the biggest advantage is because especially for bigger congregations, this isn't as big of a need when you have a congregation like ours, the one that we attend, where our Wednesday night Bible class is about 20 people or so, but you have a big congregation. You split out into four or five different Bible classes. I don't really care how good your teacher is. The personal deeper connections that you're going to have over study is just tougher to do. In that atmosphere of, again, 25 people in a classroom, one guy up front, versus again, me envisioning a small group being around somebody's living room, around a kitchen table, whatever, where maybe there's eight to ten of you, 15, whatever the number is, but you're in somebody's home and so it feels like it would be more personal and that you would have the opportunity to go a little bit deeper. Maybe you're not as restrained by a time clock or whatever it is. And so that to me would be the biggest advantage that I would foresee is that you can have closer, more personal Bible study that's a little deeper. And then being in people's homes to me is always a plus. I think that's a huge notch in favor of something like small groups is because we've bemoaned before that we're not in each other's homes enough. Most small groups, from what I understand, are done in people's homes. It kind of rotates around and I think that's a huge plus as far as disadvantages go. And then I'll shut up and let somebody else go. I think you have the potential in a bigger congregation if you do move to small groups instead of the evening worship is you have the potential to kind of fragment the congregation. Clicks could very easily form if you don't have a rotation of rotating around it. It can be very easy to again, just have different clicks and really have your congregation fragmented. The other disadvantage is that it would be difficult for elderships to kind of reign over what's being taught. I mean, I guess theoretically you could have an elder that's present at each one, but still it makes for fragmenting and kind of. You're not quite as unified. I guess that would be the disadvantage that I would see. I've got answers for the other two, but I will let you guys kind of tackle the advantage disadvantage question first. [00:30:43] Speaker B: The advantages are, as you said, the fellowship and all that. But I wrote in church reset that this feels exactly because the book is about church as business versus church as family. This is how a business like church figures out how to get fellowship in of oh, we'll make a program and this way we can check a box. See, we fellowship together and it was something that, it's a church sanctioned thing. Somebody put it on. It's not hospitality of come over to my house, let's get to know each other. [00:31:08] Speaker C: It's all right. [00:31:09] Speaker B: We're going to put this on for an hour. And everybody, you've got to come for this hour and you're supposed to be part of this. It prevents the organic from happening because, oh, well, we already did that. And yeah, the organic thing is a lot harder to get started than just, I like the greater fellowship. That's never a bad thing. I don't think making it a box to check the way that it sometimes becomes is the best way to do that. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Do you think, though, just, and this is just me asking, let's say a congregation is just very bad at the hospitality thing. Do you think this is kind of like a gateway entryway? Let's get people at least comfortable in each other's homes and so maybe they can kind of lead to more hospitality. Do you think that would be a reasonable goal or do you think I would basically offset? [00:31:55] Speaker C: I would hope so. [00:31:55] Speaker B: But I think usually what happens with that is, oh, we're good, problem solved. And it's like, well, not really. And it can settle very easily on the compromise solution kind of thing. The other thing is, I worry greatly, and I know this was like when small groups were like the boogeyman church change. Like everyone was really, or not everyone, but one wing of the church was very much against. It was false teaching can happen in it or weird stuff happens where women praying or things like that. It's a lot harder to monitor doctrinally, what's going on? I just don't know that a church, especially of a certain size, has enough qualified teachers to lead a group. In fact, somebody I know Joe and I are close with. I don't want to say any names or anything like that, just in case there's anyone listening, but went to a small group, and I mean pretty well, outright heresy was being taught about the New Testament God versus Old Testament God thing. And she's like, well, no, but the guy just didn't know what to do with it. That was his level of understanding. That's really dangerous. And if you don't have enough qualified guys and the bigger your church gets, the less likely it is you've got enough guys to staff each group with enough biblical literacy to get things right. [00:33:14] Speaker C: I don't have that much more to add. I think your clicks point, that's what I had in my notes is, yes, it does foster fellowship. It can be good for those reasons. It can feel more like a family. But go ahead, Joe, finish your smaller congregations can feel like a family. Smaller groups just feel like a click to me where. Yeah, maybe we're cycling. This is why this is not a popular opinion. If I were a big congregation, I would be looking to establish multiple smaller congregations with those in different parts of town. Because we're trying to manufacture, to Jack's point, we're trying to manufacture through programs and things like that. What, you can only get in a small congregation and then you get people. Why am I not a part of that group? Well, my buddies are over here, and so you get all the budies there. The challenges with small groups are very. I'm not saying they can't work. I've seen and I've heard of many challenges. Doesn't mean that small congregations have no challenges, but the challenges are more organic in getting them fixed, because it's like, this is all we got. Whereas with those, it's like, well, I'll just go to a different small group and there you go. You're breaking unity. [00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to be honest, I see the reasons, though, why people want to move towards something like that. And I don't personally have a spiritual biblical problem with it like some people might, I think all those concerns. So that gets us into the question of where they're basically asking, which side do we fall on? We'd rather have the traditional evening worship as a congregation versus the newer tradition of doing small groups, or do we. [00:34:42] Speaker C: Do it with altogether? [00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah, because in the three questions, you. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Have the three options churches have chosen, which is keep your Sunday night, switch Sunday night out for small groups, or do a lengthy Sunday morning. [00:34:54] Speaker A: So obviously, the three of us worship at a congregation that does the extended Sunday morning. So that's kind of where we fall, at least what we've decided, as well. [00:35:03] Speaker B: As a recent switch, though. And I think we were part of the push. I think we were all on the same. [00:35:07] Speaker A: It was pushing for that. [00:35:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:08] Speaker A: So we have our Bible class in the morning at nine, like usual, we have worship at ten, and then every other week we actually have a church wide potluck where everybody brings it. And then the other Sundays where we don't do that, we just say, hey, bring your own lunch, we'll eat together. Everybody have to bring something for somebody else. You just provide for your family. And then we meet back at 1230 for basically an extended period of going over the sermon kind of discussing, kind of like a Bible class where we're kind of discussing the sermon. What are some thoughts that people had and maybe some added thoughts that the preacher had? It makes for a good Sunday. It really does. We're not just sitting here to check a box off and be out of here by 11:00. No, we're eating together. We're here together, and we've all got small kids. It does make for, by the time it is over, we're like, okay, we got to get our kids home for a nap. So we have the three options here. I'm kind of indifferent to wanting which one is better. I think a lot of this is preference, personally, I think a lot of this is just. What do you prefer? I don't think anything is right or wrong. The leaving and coming back for the PM service, I think is kind of just a long standing tradition that a lot of churches just have done for a long time. And so they're not going to move off of it. And so I see the desire to move to something else again, whether that be small groups, whether that be the extended morning worship again, I'm indifferent. I think it's a lot of it just comes down to a preference thing, and my personal preference is, man, extend the morning worship, make sure you're not just watching the clock. Sing more songs, devote more time to the Lord's supper, kind of make a morning out of it, and then maybe you're done for the evening. Joe, what do you think? You got a thought? [00:36:51] Speaker C: It looks like, yeah, I'm not a big fan of the Sunday night worship. And I grew up. This is coming from me growing up for the first 26 years of my life having Sunday night worship. 27 years. The reason why I'm not a fan of it is I don't see the point. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Excuse me. [00:37:09] Speaker C: I look at it as the strong christians come back and those that couldn't be there on Sunday morning, and that's it. So the strong christians, yes, we all want to be there. It's not that we don't want to worship God, but at the same time, we are putting on a production, seemingly for those who were not able to make it on Sunday morning, to be able to partake of the Lord's supper on Sunday night. That's very much what it feels like when you do that. I would say if you couldn't make it on Sunday morning, well, they work. I realize things like that. I would be working to get out of that job if that were the case. This kind of gives an out to those who aren't. And I realize, look, there's a bazillion to one cases we're going to get hate mail going. But you don't understand. I'm not able to make it on Sunday morning. Look, I get that. I get that. I get that to the best of your ability. There are people think you should be there and there are people that milk it. They go, I can just go on Sunday night. I can skip, my son's got a really important baseball game, but we'll catch Sunday night. [00:38:01] Speaker B: No. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Or had a really long night Saturday night. So I'm going to sleep in Sunday morning and that's the big one that I see. [00:38:07] Speaker C: Tough Saturday, kids are tired, everything else. And so we'll just catch Sunday night. I don't like giving them a special out. I don't like giving them option b. There's option a, which is you show up for God and there's no other option. So I take more of a dogmatic approach of like, I really do think we ought to be pushing Sunday morning worship as though that is the only option and not be offering a Sunday night worship. And I am all for extending. When we were at Lone Tree, we would do a man, we'd sing eleven songs and I'd preach for like 45, 50 minutes, which is not hard for people to imagine, I'm sure. [00:38:36] Speaker A: No doubt. I'm sure. [00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I loved it. But we're talking 2 hours where you're just sitting there worshipping God and it was incredible. And then we'd all go out to eat and then we are done for the day. So there's a day of rest. You get your day of rest in, but you also get really good time with the saints where nobody's checking their watches, looking at the clock when we get out of here, or we got to come back for Sunday night and you're kind of mentally gearing up for it and then you feel bad because you're not fully mentally there, but you really want to give God your best, but you're exhausted. [00:39:03] Speaker B: No. [00:39:04] Speaker C: Give him your absolute best in the morning. There is no do over. There is no plan b on plan a. You're prepping on Saturday night for what you're about to do on Sunday morning. As far as the small groups go, I'm all for people getting together on Sunday night and if they want to have a Bible study, things like that, making it a church function or a program. I'm not as big a fan of personally, in my opinion, but I don't think anybody's sinful here. I'm not saying it's a sin. I'm just saying those are reasons why I'd give that. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah, if I did ranked choice, it'd be extended Sunday morning. Small groups. PM server. I'm with you. I struggle to see the use in a PM service. I think it's kind of that old story about the cutting the ham in half. Remember that? Of like, mama, why do we do that? Well, because my mom did it. Because my mom did it. Well, why'd you do it? Because you didn't have a big enough pot. There's no point to keep doing it. And you look back on, there's always the stories. Well, World War II and the factories. Whatever it was, it was created for such a time, and it remains. And what I really don't like is when people make it a faithfulness test. Oh, well, you didn't come back on Sunday night, or your church is switching to a longer Sunday morning. Like, you know what? It's a commitment to be there from nine in the morning until one in the afternoon. You're not like a lesser christian trying to wriggle out of commitment to God. But the other thing about it is the Sunday night thing comes from a very sacramental view of the Lord's supper. I've got to go get my lord's supper today or else. [00:40:26] Speaker A: This is a great point. [00:40:28] Speaker B: No, you're supposed to communally do it with the church. It's the meal that we do together. Yeah. And the two people that go into a side room and take it together. That's not the point of the communal meal together at all. But again, it's also that just like, oh, I didn't have a good Sunday if I didn't get my lord's supper in on. No. And so there's that side of it. The other thing is, statistically, I think 70% of people forget what the Sunday morning sermon was by Tuesday, when you had a Sunday morning Bible class and a Sunday morning, and then the Sunday evening sermon, as the preacher, it's always the one that gets less effort because there's less people there. You don't have enough time in the week to put together three or four. If you're teaching Wednesday night Bible class top of the line, you're going to put more emphasis on one or the other. So usually it's a shorter sermon, it's less like, whatever. Sometimes it's the deeper one. That's great, because he knows it's kind of the diehards, but people don't remember that much. You don't retain that much, so you're not getting much out of the sermon. The Lord's supper really is kind of a do we even need to do this? Are we supposed to do it this way? Thing and then the singing, extra singing is always good. Do it on Sunday morning. I mean, find a different way to incorporate it. But the whole, okay, we've got to get back out of the house. Come at nighttime, go home, get the kids to bed. Especially with small kids, I never felt like anybody was getting anything out of it other than a sense of duty, which is imposed on us by. And we're not talking about tradition that's handed down through the centuries. We're talking about a tradition that is in living memory. The tradition is a longer Sunday morning, a fuller day together, rather than Sunday night service. And so it's not like you're the tradition breaker who's trying to get out of something by going back to what was always done. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, not much to add there. Yeah, I agree with Jack's ranking there. And it's interesting, it seems like for these questions, they were submitted separately. It seems like we have two separate kind of views on it. One is trying to, quote unquote, sell the small groups of the eldership, and the other makes it very clear that they're on the side of congregation or evening worship. I would encourage healthy dialogue, I guess, with this. Do not make it a salvation, like Jack said, a faithfulness issue of, like, man, you people who want small groups or you people who want the longer morning worship, you guys just must not want to worship God as much or something like. Like, that's definitely what I would encourage people on both sides to kind of avoid. Joe, do you have something to add? [00:42:47] Speaker C: Oh, I was just going to say we did not hit the. How do you approach the elders about it if you very much believe in small groups? The way I was going to answer that is just, I think you have to create the need. I think you need to talk with the elders as to why you think this. [00:42:59] Speaker A: What problem would it solve exactly? [00:43:01] Speaker B: Like, we're not, because they're going to have concerns of all the teaching or things that we brought up. Clicks. And how are you going to avoid that? So think through the proposal. The other thing I was going to say on this briefly is this is one of the things that Covid did give the church was when everything got tossed up in the air, so many churches went and looked at it and went, why are we doing Sunday night service and I think that's why so much of it has been cut was they realized nobody's gaining anything out of this. And so I feel like that was a nice shift that that gave a lot of congregations was the chance to look at that. [00:43:35] Speaker A: I'm going to move us into the next one, guys, if you're good with it, because we're about 40 minutes in or so. This was an interesting one as well. Paul talks about not judging in food, drink, new moons, festivals or sabbaths. Colossians two, verse 16. He also talks about becoming like other people in one corinthians 919 through 23. Is he talking about understanding other cultures and people to understand where people stand on things? Could we possibly bring more people to Christ? If we looked through the lens of other people's beliefs, would it be scripturally acceptable to participate in biblical festivals, but in understanding that the substance or reasoning is of or for Christ? I've wondered if as christians, we can get too wrapped up in the way we do things now that just considering or studying other principles that were are biblical are things we just don't consider. To sum that up, is it scripturally wrong for a New Testament Christian to quote unquote, keep or participate in biblical festivals or sabbaths today as long as they didn't force it upon others or make them think that it gives them a more spiritually saved position? Interesting question. Which of you guys wants to tackle that one first? [00:44:39] Speaker B: Is this specifically speaking about reaching out to jewish people? [00:44:44] Speaker C: That's all I could think is right. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Partaking of the Sabbath. [00:44:49] Speaker B: We've talked about this a little bit before, like christians that we know that are growing more and more incorporating of jewish stuff, of old law stuff and things like that. And that makes me a little nervous. Obviously there are the verses about not judging in what you celebrate. On the other hand, we want to make sure not to be Judaizers and bind the law on Christianity. Does that mean go and celebrate Passover with them? I guess you could. I don't think they would be all that amenable to you saying, yeah, and you know who this is actually about. And not that you would do that in the moment, but I don't know. I had not really considered something like this before. [00:45:36] Speaker A: But you don't make it scripturally wrong, it sounds like. [00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think it's wrong. Unless you really start thinking that law keeping is know, making you right with. [00:45:48] Speaker C: I just. I don't think it's wrong. I don't necessarily have an issue with it. I just don't think we have any part of Judaism specifically of. And I'm, I'm all for keeping an open mind, but looking through the scriptures through the lens of those that blatantly deny Jesus as Messiah is probably not where I want to take. I don't want to look through the lens of their scriptures too much. It's very much like Dennis Prager. You listen to his stuff and I know he's got a lot of good stuff, but at the same time it's like. But at the end of the day you deny Jesus as the Christ. Therefore I don't really care about your biblical position all that much. And that sounds maybe very know to say. I'm sure he's got some great thoughts on the Old Testament. But you deny Christ. So that idea, are you in sin, engaging in the passover Sabbath, whatever it is? No, I don't think so. I think there's nothing wrong with that. And again, this person makes it clear they're not looking to bind it on others. So no, I don't think you're wrong for it. If it's trying to get them to see, hey, I'm coming to you and maybe you'll come to me. If it's an evangelism thing, I guess, yeah. Again, I'm all for keeping an open mind. More than anything, we're here to think deeper. At the same time. Yes, I'm a little bit nervous about looking through scripture and all of those things through the lens specifically of the jewish traditions or anybody else's because they don't see Jesus as the Christ. That's kind of a big problem for me and a sticking point that I think they need to be viewing it from our point. And I realize if we don't view it from theirs, they won't view it from ours to a certain degree. But yeah, I'm a little wary of this. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have a ton to add to that. That's kind know my thought of anytime you're returning to, I mean we have a whole book of the New Testament written about not returning back to the old law. And so anytime that you are, I don't know, treading those waters, I think it's dangerous. I think in one corinthians nine, when Paul's talking about become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some, I think that gets abused a lot. And kind of people take that to oh, so we should do x, Y and Z. I guess my modern day application of this question would be like, if you're trying to get to know a family, maybe for the purpose of eventual conversion one day, and they invite you over and they're like, hey, come over and you can eat dinner with us. We're actually celebrating Passover, whatever, you don't have to say no. You can go over there and in your effort of getting to know them, if it's some kind of, I don't think you're in sin for doing that. But I guess my question, similar to what these guys are saying, is, beyond something like that, I don't really see the use of it. Certainly, if you're just doing it for yourself and your family, I'm not super comfortable with that. If it's an educational thing, I know some homeschool families to learn about jewish culture will do some kind of feast that they did or something like that, obviously, I don't have a problem with that. I think a lot of this is motive, motive driven. What are you doing it for? [00:48:43] Speaker B: Again? [00:48:43] Speaker A: If it's for you want to meet somebody where they are and really make sure that you are trying to reach them in the gospel, that's one thing. But other than that, I don't see a huge use for it. [00:48:53] Speaker B: I'd say one other thing before we move on from this, does this apply to your muslim people, move town, want you to come do Ramadan with them or whatever, like levels of comfort. And I know in the New Testament they did engage with the jewish, they still were very jewish people, and so they'd go and celebrate Passover, Pentecost, whatever, because one of the other things we have to do at this point is, and I don't think a lot of people realize this, is we have to view modern Judaism as basically as far off as not, it's very, are there, are, you know, get, get familiar with a book called it's essentially the Pharisees won. And we know how the Pharisees felt about Jesus. Right. And so it's not like, oh, well, we're on the same team. They don't think that. And so you need to familiarize yourself with that a little bit, I think is something that is misunderstood a lot today. But again, what I'm saying with that is treat that kind of stuff similarly to what you would treat a muslim family that came to town. There should be lines that you draw on other stuff you're like, I'm cool. [00:50:07] Speaker C: With came real fast and we got to move on. If you came out of Islam and came to Christianity but still wanted to celebrate Ramadan thoughts. Seems like that's kind of what Paul's talking about. But at the same time, this is a. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Well, it depends on what you're doing it for. If you're doing it to grow closer. [00:50:25] Speaker A: To. [00:50:29] Speaker B: Know, I would agree. [00:50:29] Speaker C: I think it goes back to Will's point of the motive does very much matter when it comes to something like this. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Let's jump into question. It is. [00:50:36] Speaker A: It is. [00:50:36] Speaker C: Actually, Jack, I think it's your turn. [00:50:38] Speaker B: On judgment versus instruction. Says judge not that you be not judged is often thrown back at christians when they're pointing out sinful behavior. I've even heard some of the church use this snippet of scripture in a way that seems out of context to me. When do we cross the line of right judgment, John 724, or instruction and righteousness into merely being judgmental? So there's a point at which you're correcting somebody, you're instructing them, teaching them what they need to know, but you do become judgmental at a certain point. So run with that. What do you guys think? [00:51:06] Speaker C: I would say, what's the purpose? No, go for it. [00:51:08] Speaker A: No, go right ahead. [00:51:09] Speaker C: Okay. I would say, what's the purpose of the judgment? Are we bringing it up to them so as to help them in their walk with Christ or to hold it over their head? Is it on our standard or is it God's standard? Are we gossiping about it and not even bringing it up to them? I think the heart behind it matters quite a bit. And if the heart is to nitpick every last thing the person is doing because you want to feel more pious than them, or because you want to make sure that they're like, there is some of this, that people do need to come to it on their own. I'm not saying if you see a brother blatantly in sin, I'm just saying we could always tweak things here or there, especially if it's a matter of opinion. To me, the opinion versus they are in sin, and I'm judging rightly. And seeing this person is wrong, I'm going to them versus. I don't like the way they're doing it, but kind of a romans 14 thing. And again, the other judgmental thing. A lot of people who are judgmental stand back and gossip. Stand back and look at everybody and go, well, they're doing this and this and this. Clearly, that's not the right heart. Clearly that is sinful and wrong. So at what point does something go from judging rightly to not? I think the motive matters as to am I really helping this person their walk with Christ through love, or am I doing it because I feel like I'm more pious than them and I'm trying to correct them out of my own piousness? That's a simplification, but that's kind of my initial answer. [00:52:26] Speaker A: Well, I had some similar thoughts. I think the key in Matthew seven is obviously where that's from. The key in Matthew seven is you judging others, you pointing out other people's issues when you've got a massive problem within yourself that you're not addressing in your own life. I mean, it's the inconsistent hypocritical standard that I think Jesus is pointing out. And judge not that you be not judged. And what's the very next verse with what measure you use, it will be judged back to you again, be careful what you nitpick other people about because then you're going to get nitpicked. I think that's the point of Matthew seven. As we've talked about before, Jesus is not putting an embargo on all judging in any kind of judgment. He's saying inconsistent, hypocritical in a way, unfair judging. And so, Joe, I had some similar thoughts as far as kind of judging for the sake of, you get to have the moral high ground over somebody. Yeah, that's wrong. That's not right at all. Or judging. You wanting to nitpick somebody else because of maybe your own spiritual insecurities, or maybe you simply, like you said, don't like the way somebody does something. That's not really a big deal. Yeah, I think you're overstepping there. But on the flip side of that, the term judgmental, I don't think is the curse word that the world makes it out to be. Oh, you're so judgmental. There's such a negative connotation to that when it's pretty clear that having a form of righteous judgment is something that is required of a Christian. And what I always go back to with Matthew seven is when Jesus says, take the plank out of your own eye before you remove the speck from your brother's eye, what is the implication hidden within that you still can try to remove the spec from your brother's eye? Like you still have the ability to point out something that you believe is wrong, just not inconsistently and not hypocritically. And so again, I think we've made the word judgmental kind of a curse word in the world. And even in some Christian, the church circles talking about modesty, for instance. You're just judging the way she dresses. Well, if it's an abomination, if it's not pleasing to God, then, yeah, I am going to be offended by it and I am going to judge that. And I think for the question of when does something cross over the line of righteous judgment. Know, something that's just being judgmental is, again, when you have the inconsistent standard, maybe when you're just nitpicking, when you are leaving biblical standards for your judgment and entering more into kind of your own standards, just the way that you would do things or something like that, if that makes sense. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:55:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'm right there with you. Those are the only two restrictions on judgment. Is Matthew seven, hypocrisy, romans 14, opinion binding your conscience. [00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:08] Speaker B: And so modesty is a perfect example in that there's always a thing when you talk about modesty. Well, boys just shouldn't look like if you've got a man who is excusing his own lust by pointing to her modesty and he's judging her but won't judge himself, that applies now. That doesn't mean she doesn't need to put some clothes on. I mean, you can accurately say that. And then if he's like, you know what? She didn't have a hijab on, or she's wearing short sleeve shirt, and that's just not acceptable. No, budy, you don't get to make that judgment. There's range within. This is okay. It's just those two specific applications. I'll keep it short there because I think you said it said all that needs to be said. [00:55:45] Speaker C: All right, we got two more. [00:55:46] Speaker A: I think we have two more. I think it's my turn to read one. [00:55:49] Speaker B: I think. [00:55:49] Speaker A: Or is, Joe. [00:55:50] Speaker B: It might be mine and then yours. Yeah, I think it's mine. Go to yours. [00:55:53] Speaker C: Is there a difference? And if so, what is the difference between being a sinner and sinning? For example, homosexuality. A person could be tempted by this and even give into, or have given into the temptation, but they know it's a sin and are trying to keep themselves from it. On the other hand, you might have a person that either thinks it's not a sin or doesn't care that it is and lives their life being involved in homosexuality. I believe the difference in repentance, or is repent and seeking to live as God would have us to live. Sometimes we make mistakes, but that doesn't mean we give up trying to be better if we give in and give up trying not to give in. That would seem like the point at which we have fallen from grace. So maybe that is more like the actual question here. At what point do we fall from grace? [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah, so this is kind of a drum that I've beat before. That kind of bothers me when christians refer to themselves as sinners. Kind of the umbrella, oh, well, we're all sinners type of thing, kind of being arm in arm with the world. I do think that there is a difference between somebody who is a sinner versus somebody who stumbles in sin. I think there's a difference between being a sinner and sinning. And I think that's what's supposed to differentiate us as christians. About romans six, verse one. Shall we continue in sin that grace may bound? Of course not. Or God forbid. Absolutely not. One. John two, verse one. These things I write to you so that you what? So that you may not sin. Like there is an expectation that sinning is not supposed to be a part of our lifestyle as christians anymore. Now, again, that does not mean that we will not stumble, that we will not make mistakes, that we will not at some point do something that is sinful to God, but sin as a part of our lifestyle supposed to be eradicated. It's kind of the way that I view that. And to me, there are several steps here that must take place. So they use the example of homosexuality. A person can be tempted by this and even given or have given into the temptation, but they know it's a sin of trying to keep themselves from it. I think there's several steps that have to take place here for you to say that they are still kind of in. Right standing with God. And the first one is an acknowledgment that your behavior action is wrong. Obviously, I think that's the first one. If somebody has to acknowledge homosexuality is wrong. The second, obviously, is repentance before God, whether that be in prayer, maybe before the church or whatever. But the third one, to me that I just thought of that I think a lot of people skip, it's not just verbal repentance, is that you have to do everything you can to remove that from your lifestyle. Everything. You have to do everything you can to remove that from your lifestyle. And this is what I think gets skipped by so many christians, is it's not enough to just. Well, I said I was sorry I repented, and then I kept watching the same stuff, or I kept kind of doing the trotting down the same paths that led me to that temptation. No, you've got to not even look down the path. That's psalm one. Right. And so I think that is taking proactive steps to avoid temptation. Maybe I'm thinking of like, if you're somebody who struggles with pornography, you're looking at pornography. What proactive step? Okay, you've repented, great. Meaning that you're trying to not do those things. But what proactive steps are you taking? Are you involved in therapy? Are you counseling? Have you put filters on your phone? Have you maybe gotten rid of your smartphone, if that's what it takes? Have you deleted all your social media? Have you stopped watching certain things? Again, that's the step to me that so many people don't really get to. That I think is the differentiating factor there. So kind of a long winded answer there, but I think those are the kind of the three factors that you have to see before you can honestly say that somebody is maybe still struggles with something, but is trying to live a repentant lifestyle. Joe or Jack, what do y'all think? [00:59:29] Speaker B: Yeah, the homosexuality thing, I appreciate what they were doing with the example. I think it's a little bit too extreme an example in that whether it's homosexuality or fornication or know you're sleeping with your girlfriend, there's a lot of stuff you have to do to make that happen. It's not something you slip into. There's a lot of premeditation, I guess, is what, you know, pornography addiction, let's use that as the example instead because I think that makes a more interesting conversation as far as repentance goes in that man, you're scrolling through Facebook or Twitter to something totally harmless, and something comes across and all of a sudden you're in that moment. And that addiction, you guys keep falling back into it. And guys that, you know, I'm sorry, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm praying, maybe even accountable or whatever, but they keep stumbling and falling. And I'm bringing this up because Joe will have more to say on it as he works so much with that. They, they want to get better. They're doing things to try and get better. They put blocks or whatever, but they're still not coming out of that. They're stumbling with it. Is the guy who's on month six of a struggle with that and still stumbles and falls every few weeks? Has he left grace? And that's kind of a hard one because on the one hand, you repent, you're forgiven, you come back, but on the other, you keep doing it. And there is a willfulness to it. To some degree. It has to be willful, but it's not as premeditated as the other stuff. But it's still very much a choice that's being made. As far as the sin and sinner thing, I think first, John, it says there in chapter one, if we say we have no sin, we lie, or we make God a liar, we're wrong. But then in chapter three, he says, oh, let's see, chapter three, verse six. No one who abides in him sins. No one who sins has seen him or knows him. And you can look at that like, well, I sin, so I must not abide in God. No, he's saying sin like ongoing sin, like you're choosing sin, habitual sin, whatever. Because in chapter one, he already said, you know, that you're going to sin, but here you can't abide in God and keep sinning. And so I'm going to put that to you, Joe, somebody who is on, let's just use the number again. Month six of, they're still stumbling once every couple of weeks with the same sin problem. Is it a trajectory thing? Like it's getting better, they're going longer in between. What are your thoughts on that one specifically? [01:01:52] Speaker A: Jack gave the super convoluted tough question to Joe. [01:01:54] Speaker B: Well done. [01:01:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I appreciate that. [01:01:56] Speaker B: See if he's an average Joe or not. Here's your trial. [01:02:01] Speaker C: It's going to depend on who's judging. [01:02:03] Speaker B: Me and judging with righteous judgment. Hopefully. [01:02:06] Speaker A: That's right. [01:02:07] Speaker C: Hopefully. So, yeah, I work with guys that are on month 10,000. You know what I mean? Like six years in, seven years in. I've worked with guys in their 70s. They've been doing it for the last 50 years. [01:02:19] Speaker B: And that's not an uncommon thing. [01:02:21] Speaker C: It's not uncommon, unfortunately. So here's my understanding of it. Are you clawing your way out with everything you have? It comes down to what you guys are saying, when do I know? So I struggle with it for ten years. There were times where I genuinely think, like, I thought I was lost a lot, but there are times I, looking back on, I genuinely think I was lost, and that's when I gave up and just gave in. Like, I'm not even trying. I can't beat it, so I'm just going to join it. That's where repentance, I think Hebrews six has to come in, which is trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Christ. [01:02:51] Speaker A: Right? [01:02:51] Speaker C: And Hebrews ten also talks about that. To me, that's turning your back on Christ, going, this is where you fall from. Grace is, I don't need Christ's sacrifice anymore, or I'm choosing to just go right into my sin. What I always tell my clients, because they go, I just don't think I'm saved. You don't think God knows how addiction works? You don't think he knows how. [01:03:08] Speaker B: I think christians need to know how addiction works, though, because I think there's a lot of people listening. Well, if you didn't want to, you just wouldn't do it. Right eye level. Absolutely. On the other, it's more complex than that with an addiction, whether it's porn, whether it's. There's a few different ways that can. [01:03:25] Speaker C: Go, go listen to my get out of porn podcasts on brain chemicals or on brain chemistry. There is an absolute chemical component to this that does drive you back to the addiction time and again. It's a bit more complicated than you just stop. Whereas for fornication, yeah, I suppose there could be some of that dopamine rush and whatnot, but that's way different a lot of the time than a guy who's, like, in a pornography. Just brain chemistry wise and addiction wise. Again, I go back to my point. Are you doing everything you can to get out of it? Are you putting things on your phone every single time you stumble? Are you talking to your accountability partners? Are you figuring out how to shut down that particular pathway? Well, I got around it by looking through Twitter. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Okay. [01:04:01] Speaker C: Did you cut Twitter off your phone? What are you doing to get rid of. [01:04:05] Speaker B: You mentioned accountability partners. If you don't have one, you can't say you're trying to do better. Confess your sins is part of the commands in there. [01:04:12] Speaker C: I'll do it on my own, like. No, you won't. You're not clawing your way out of it. [01:04:15] Speaker B: And this is any sin. [01:04:16] Speaker C: So, yes, this is pornography, but I'm talking any sin. This is, to me, where you've fallen from, Grace, is you continually have a struggle with sin. People go angry. [01:04:25] Speaker B: Mom, let's just get a concrete yelling at her kids, week in, week out. [01:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah, there you go. What are you doing to stop? Well, I prayed and asked for forgiveness. Okay. And what did you do differently the next time? Well, I did it again. Okay. Did you talk to somebody about it? Have you read the books on it? Have you gotten therapy to get through your anger? What are you doing to. Are you actively trying to stop? Right. And if you are clawing your way out of this and you are seeing progress. And, yes, it's a struggle. There's a lot of things in the way, but, man, you're doing everything you can. You're in good standing. But the question is, how much do you hate sin? So, those who fall from grace, at what point have I fallen from grace? It's kind of the wrong question. The question you need to ask is, how much do I want out? What am I willing to do? Are you willing to cut your hand off and to poke out your right eye, as Jesus talks about in order to get out of this? And if you're not, I look at it, and I don't want to be you at the judgment, because I can't say whether you are saved or not. All I know is you are not viewing sin the way God views sin, which is egregious, horrendous, horrific, every negative word you could use, he wants it out, and he's looking to cut it out of your life. And when he gives you those paths of escape and when the spirit is pushing you to do it, and you just blatantly brush it aside and go, I don't care. That's a bad problem to me. That's where you fall from. Grace, is you don't have a killer instinct. You're just kind of putting up with the addiction, or you're putting up with the anger, or you're putting up with the sin because, well, I tried a long time to stop. No, that's what we call white knuckle change again. Listen to my podcast for what white knuckle change is. You squeeze until your knuckles are white. That's not true repentance. That's not true salvation. And let me say this, then I'll move on. We often talk about repentance to the church. Repentance means you do an about face 180, and you turn from it and don't do it again. Okay, that's a bit idealistic. You know what I mean? Like, romans seven comes into this discussion at some point as well. Repentance doesn't mean you never go back into it, because, look, I gossiped one time, and then six years later, I gossiped. You didn't actually repent, okay, I did. I'm trying to turn from this and doing everything I can to turn away from this sin. [01:06:22] Speaker A: It's an attitude thing. It's a perspective thing. [01:06:24] Speaker C: Exactly. It's more of a consistent trying to turn away and doing whatever you can, even if you still struggle with it. It's the attitude and the clawing your way out is how I would explain it. [01:06:35] Speaker A: All right, so we are way over time. We've got one last question that we will hit quickly. Really great thoughts in that last question. That was some good stuff there. How do quote unquote, democratic principles jive with verses like Jeremiah ten, verse 23, and proverbs 14, verse twelve? I'll read those verses very quickly. And then this, fellas, this might be one where we don't have to, all of us go around for this one since we are somewhat over on time. Jeremiah 1023. O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. And then with proverbs 1412, there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death. I'm going to let our resident political expert on the podcast, Jack, take over with his answer for this question. [01:07:26] Speaker B: All right. First, I'm going to dish out some free knowledge, and I'm not getting onto this person because this is something everybody. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Does, some free knowledge. [01:07:32] Speaker B: It's jibe J-I-B-E. Most people don't know that. It's not jive. It's jibe b, as in boy number two. Nothing against that guy. Everybody makes that mistake. [01:07:41] Speaker A: Number two, actually see, free knowledge. [01:07:44] Speaker B: You will get all kinds of free. [01:07:45] Speaker C: Stuff when you listen to suggesting his monocle. Yeah, that's great. [01:07:48] Speaker B: I get where they're going with this about democratic principles and people's ability to govern themselves and all that. I don't know. Those verses were directly about that. On the other hand, it introduces this principle of human nature. And he's right. Democracy is a terrible idea. And so, yeah, now I get to sign off the podcast as the resident fascist or monarchist or what? I don't know. I'm kidding about the fascist thing. Not so much the monarchist thing, but this comes into the dropping heat. [01:08:23] Speaker C: All right, everybody. That's great. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. [01:08:26] Speaker A: Before we leave him. [01:08:27] Speaker B: No, but this comes into churches. Well, we got to see what everybody thinks. No, we don't. We really don't. This is the point hierarchy, and I've said this so many times, what 2020 taught us, if you didn't get this lesson, you weren't paying attention. People are begging to be led. People desire, and the majority of people want to be, need to be. And that's not a bad thing. That's a human nature thing. That is how God created people. We're kind of ending up where we started about kind of the cult of personality in the church people are going to look to people. They're going to look to the people that have earned their trust, and that's how it works. And so on a political level. Yeah, no, nobody wants to hear me talk politics, so I'm going to keep that to myself. On a church level or a family level, will we all get a vote? No. You need to take everyone's thoughts into consideration and then make the choice that is best for them according to God. Yeah. There's so much on individualism that we have been indoctrinated with that we bring to church and religious discussions, that is, ideas that are a few hundred years old that are just counter to human nature. And so it's an interesting question for somebody like me to talk about for an hour, and I'm not going to do that. So whoever sent that one in, thank you very much and sorry for correcting you. [01:09:43] Speaker A: But now, you know, I got nothing to say. I don't either. Figure Jack would handle that one very well. Guys, this was fun. I always enjoy these Q a episodes. Big, big shout out to everybody who submitted these. Made us think, definitely challenged us a little bit. And so, yeah, I don't have any. Guys, do we have anything else we want to mention before we get out of here again? Hope everybody had a wonderful holiday weekend. Hope you can continue to enjoy the holidays. I know a lot of people are still off of work. Jack's probably going on another vacation or something. [01:10:15] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Just kidding. But we will be talking to you guys, I guess, on New Year's. Are we launching an episode on New Year's or. Okay, so start off the new year right with think deeper. Thinking deeper in the new year. Make that New Year's resolution. But no, seriously, we're very grateful for all of our listeners. We'll be back with a deep end segment, I guess. Are we doing it? I probably shouldn't be asking this right now. Are we doing a deep end segment since it was A-Q-A episode? [01:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I think some of the plus subscribers submitted these, so they might want to follow up. If they do, then we'll give them. Perfect. [01:10:47] Speaker C: So there you go. [01:10:47] Speaker A: There you go. Maybe Jack can expand on or expound on as political takes there. We can do that during the deep end. [01:10:53] Speaker B: We'll see if it jives. [01:10:56] Speaker A: Very nice with that. We're going to wrap up. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next weekend.