VBS, Worship, and the Place of Reverence

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Will Harab and Joe Wilkie. This week we're going back to one of our, our, I don't know, favorite takes. One of our takes we might be known for earliest takes, early takes. Yeah. One that kind of stood out for people and. But it's not only that. Joe especially has become the anti VBS guy. Well, obviously it's mid summer vacation. Bible school is a big thing. And Dr. Brad Harab, who of course is the director of Focus Press, had a semi viral Facebook post about vacation Bible schools that got us onto that. But really, in general, we want to talk about reverence. We want to talk about the place of reverence, the place of having a good time, the place of kids, things like that. And kind of blending all of these things. Yes, you need reverence. Yes, you need to have a good time. Yes, we need to acknowledge kids in the church and things like that. But how do you balance that? When does it go too far to become irreverent? When is it, you know, when are you too stodgy? I guess some people might charge and so a lot of different angles to talk about. VBS being one of them. So. Should be interesting. We always say it's an interesting discussion. Should be a challenging discussion. I'll go with a different adjective. Will, what'd you have? [00:01:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I just think anytime discussions like this take place, we have to acknowledge everybody has a line, everybody has a line of what is irreverent. Because people are going to look at some of our takes, specifically some of Joe's takes, and going to say, you know, oh my goodness, you know, this line. But you have to acknowledge you also have a line. If we, if, if, you know, they had, how they had for, you know, like preschools and elementary schools, if we had a pajama day, pajama worship day, most people are going to say, okay, come on, you can't have a pajama day. Or, you know, this Sunday only, we're going to, you know, be serving cheeseburgers during worship. Like, everybody has a line. And so that's what we're discussing in this episode is best to the best of our ability. Where should that line be? How should we navigate figuring out where that line is? But I just wanted to start with that because, you know, again, for the people that are probably going to maybe disagree with us or, you know, maybe push back a little, I do think you have to acknowledge, okay, but you also have a line too. And that you know, has to come into discussion, at least to some extent. Yeah. [00:02:39] Speaker A: I think the point for me is I understand the point of vbs, the point of why we do some of these things. We're not. It's not just vbs, we're going to get in some other things, and I can kind of understand the point. We want to invite people in. We want to train kids. We want to make sure that people realize, you know, we're fun, whatever it is, and let people know it's not just stodgy all the time. The struggle is reverence. Did reverence come into your thinking at all? When you have a Star wars themed vbs, did reverence hit at all? Was that ever a part of the thinking is the planning for all of the adults that got together. We're going to build this and do that and get our Jedi Knight costumes, or we're going to get our Bob the Builder costumes or whatever else like, and we're going to completely transform the foyer in the auditorium. Did anybody stop and go, is this. Reverend, is this treating God as holy? Most of the time? In my experience, no, that wasn't one of the questions on the docket. There's a bazillion other questions. What's it going to cost? And who's going to do this? And who's going to bring the crane in for the, you know, massive thing that we're going to put up on stage? How are we going to get those things done? Reverence didn't come into the discussion. Well, here we are. We're bringing in reverence to the discussion. Is this reverent? Is this treating God as holy? Because we must treat him as holy. And so to kick off that discussion, fellas, I wanted to discuss, like, people are going to look at that and go, that's Old Testament. Of course. That's almost the Marcianism, right? [00:03:59] Speaker B: The. [00:03:59] Speaker A: The difference between the Old Testament, Testament God. Has reverence changed over time? We can look at the reverence of the Old Testament of, like, Hoffy and Phineas getting put to death, right? Hey, that's strange. Fire. Boom. You're dead on the spot. Uzzah. Touching the ark. You're dead on the spot. You're like, you're not treating me as holy. You see God making the. Sorry. [00:04:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's okay. [00:04:18] Speaker A: Well, yeah. Who am I thinking? [00:04:20] Speaker B: That's. [00:04:20] Speaker C: Wasn't that Samuel's sons? [00:04:21] Speaker A: That's Eli. Eli. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Different. Struck dead. [00:04:25] Speaker A: There you go. Different. Different priests. Different sin also struck or killed. Yeah, they're not struck dead. Killed in war. That's right. So they had an abihu in Leviticus 10, I think. And so you can look at that and say, or even God making the people drink all the. Grinding the gold down and drinking it. Whoa, there's a reverence. Like, you're not treating me as holy. We can go to the New Testament. Has it changed? New Testament? Is it changed for today? Let's start there and build our biblical case for reverence. What are your guys thoughts on that? [00:04:56] Speaker B: That's. Obviously some things have changed. There's not like a tabernacle where if you step across this line, you're violating some big thing. And so, yeah, there's that. You know, I wrote down on our notes in Exodus where they come to the mountain, and that's where Moses has the cleanse yourself for three days. Get ready, we're gonna go up to the mountain. You're not gonna. Nobody touches the mountain or you die. Moses is gonna go up there. And even Moses going up there and them hearing the voice and the thunder was so scary. They're all like, you know what, Moses, you go handle that for us. Like it was that. But then Hebrews kind of comes back around to use that as an illustration a little bit as to, okay, we don't. He says, we don't come to the mountain that may be touched and burned with fire, to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore, for they could not endure what was commanded. So it brings up all those says, that's not where we are. You've come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God, the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. So you've got all that saying, yeah, we're not at Mount Sinai, we're Mount Zion. We're at a different system. And so that's to your point, Joe. People are like, oh, it's different than it used to be. And yet he concludes this section. Hebrews 12:28, 30. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear for our God as a consuming fire. Maybe not as different as we think it is. Yes, some of the external trappings are different, but I think reverence and godly fear still have to be part of the equation. That didn't go away. Jesus didn't come and do that. Ah, come on, lighten up. You know, we're gonna, you know, take it way easier. That's just not how it works. [00:06:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that was very well said. And I know people don't actually believe that the Old. That the God of the Old Testament is different than the God of the New Testament, but, man, they sure do act like it sometimes, especially with those types of arguments that, well, that was Old Testament, you know. You know, essentially Jesus. Jesus came to calm God down is kind of the. The insinuation that people give. But I just think. I just think about what you just read, Jack. That last verse. For our God is a consuming fire. That was the case in the Old Testament. That very much is the case now. And for us to, you know, you know, think that it's watered down or. Or, you know, how older people get in their, you know, old age, like their intensity kind of dies down and they kind of calm down a little bit, you know, for us to kind of think that's how it is with God. To me, just. Yeah, that last verse is what sticks out to me. For our God is a consuming fire. That has been the case. That will continue to be the case. Thus the need for reverence and fear. And, you know, again, VBS is going to kind of be the. A lot of what people kind of focus on with this episode. We're going to get into. Into some. Some things later on that are challenging and tough for even me, I think about prayer. And again, we're not gonna get into this right now, but just to kind of preview it, I think about prayer, I think about kids leading in worship, so to speak. Is that an example? You know, our God is a consuming fire, you know, and there's a level of seriousness with which we approach the throne of God, with which we worship God. To what extent does that come in? So I just wanted to point out the fact that, man, you know, again, we might not literally say that the God of the Old Testament is different than just, but that does seem to be what a lot of people believe based on the. The attitude of reverence that is extended. [00:08:30] Speaker A: I also think there's a parallel. You go to Acts 5. So Leviticus 10 law is very recently established. We're just establishing the priesthood. Nate, having a bihue offer, strange fire, poof, you're dead. Acts 5 We're just establishing the church. Things are just starting to come together. The priesthood, the new priesthood. Right. We're just establishing this. Then you have Ananias and Sapphira offering, not a strange fire, but they don't. They hold back part of the offering. They are struck dead on the spot. And the way that both of them respond is very, very differently. You have the wilderness years, you know, with everybody's kind of filled with fear to some degree, but the. The response is very different. But what that goes to show you is at the beginning, at the outlay of both of those, people are killed, like on the spot. And it does grip everybody with fear. You go, well, it's the same. Or it's, you know, God is a lot less like, no, at the very beginning of Acts, he's killing people on the spot for what they did to me. That is God showing like, yeah, I'm the exact same and I will be treated as holy. And then the other place I'd go is Revelation. You cannot read the first five chapters of Revelation without coming away, specifically chapter one and chapter four and five without coming away from that saying, whoa, we serve a holy God. You've got beings, these angels that would scare the living daylights out of us if they were here. And they're the ones that are saying, holy, holy, holy. And they've been doing it. We see it in Isaiah 6, like, they've been doing it for thousands of years. Holy, holy, holy. They are singing this out to God. Yeah, he's the same God. That's a New Testament passage that is seemingly taking place at the ascension of Christ. It's a big deal. He's treated as holy all throughout the Bible. And so that's the foundation upon which we want to build this episode. Like, are we treating God as holy in the things that we do? Does that mean we need to be in terror of God? Well, he's a good God. He's a loving God. He's a father. So I don't think that needs means that we're constantly in terror of upsetting him as much as it is. Yeah, we do want the relationship with him. But, man, when you see some of these things, to me it feels like VBS is specifically have gotten worse. I've seen some things on Facebook this, this year that take the reverence and bring it down to like zero, basically, maybe a one on the scale, which is crazy. [00:10:37] Speaker C: So let's. With that, I think we're going to go ahead and get into VBS specifically. I actually wanted to Read the first couple paragraphs of my dad's post. [00:10:45] Speaker B: And. [00:10:46] Speaker C: I. Yeah, I just think he summed it up so well. He says, imagine walking into a Pentecostal church and seeing people literally running around and hollering on stage. Imagine if there were young ladies helping, leading, singing. Imagine the people were literally jumping off the stage toward the audience while shouting. Imagine if the. If the people there were clapping stomp and turning circles. Imagine if some of the leaders up front were dressed up in crazy costumes. Imagine if everyone was clapping and applauding. Would you feel comfortable? Would you stay? Now, imagine the same scene not in the Pentecostal service, but at the vacation Bible school hosted by a local church of Christ. What makes such behavior appropriate in one context but questionable in another. That's pretty well laid out from my view, in my opinion. And, you know, Joe, you just kind of mentioned kind of the. [00:11:29] Speaker A: The. [00:11:29] Speaker C: The excessive things which you can get into so much. The excessive budget, you know, the excessive spending, the excessive decorating, the excessive performances. You know, it. Some congregations will do, you know, a puppet show, and that's about it. Others, you've got elaborate skits and lightsaber duels. And, you know, it just seems to kind of escalate depending on, honestly, how big the church is, in my opinion. But I just think that that was laid out so well in the sense of any other context outside of vbs for the US of the Church of Christ, we would look at that and go, man, that does not seem appropriate. That does not seem even scriptural in many instances. But because it's vacation Bible school and because it's for the kids, which is probably where we need to get to next, stamp of approval for most people. So Jack will bring you in on this as kind of we introduce the idea. And again, as far as earliest takes goes, Joe came out with this hot take pretty strongly. I don't want to. I don't want us to take credit for it because it was kind of. [00:12:31] Speaker A: His thing when we first aged like fine grape juice. Okay. [00:12:34] Speaker C: And it is age quite well. It is aged very well. And, you know, I do think it's funny that a lot of people are actually. There were a lot. There was a lot of agreement on that Facebook post as well. A lot of disagreement, but a lot of agreement as well. [00:12:48] Speaker A: It's. [00:12:48] Speaker C: It's aging very well. But, Jack, what thoughts do you have to. As we kind of get into vbs. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Brad's framing is really good of, like, interestingly, he had a post last week. [00:12:58] Speaker A: About. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Women'S swimwear and that what is underwear here, is swimwear here. And like, why is this one okay and this one's not? What is Pentecostal insanity over here is, oh, it's VBS over here. You know, the same concept. And in both cases, it's like, yeah, I would lose my mind if that happened in this instance. And over here, I'm fine with it. And yes, different things have different rules. Different, you know, church summer camp is not gonna look like a Sunday morning. It's not gonna look like a funeral. I understand all that, but there are things where things that you would say, no, that's just not acceptable suddenly become acceptable. I remember even as a kid, it was like, okay, for three days a year, we're allowed to do hand clapping in church. Like, okay, sure, that doesn't really calculate, but, okay, we're stomping our feet and clapping and all that. And so, yeah, that framing, I think, is helpful to say, are we sure about this? Is this an okay thing for us to do? And so do the rules change? Well, yeah, setting is going to change, but how much change? How far can you go? [00:14:05] Speaker C: I guess I want to ask Joe, because as I think about kind of the way people might push back. Oh, are you, you know, women leading, singing. Come on, give me a break. Women very much are present in the skits, to say the least. Like the, the. The part of VBS that is the most teaching taking place being the skits. A lot of women are involved, you know, not every congregation. Again, generalizing. But I've been to congregations where women are in the skits. Women are, you know, have a prominent role in the skits. But, Joe, what I want to ask you specifically is how would you answer the person that says this is not worship? The bounds that are set for worship scripturally, are not the same bounds for vacation Bible school. The only, I guess you'd say similar factors are. It's in the same building and it's, you know, put on by the local church. It's an organized thing put on by the church. Just like worship is. It's just like, know any fellowship meals are and stuff like that, but it's not worship. Because I, as I'm listening to us talk about this, I know that's going to be the first reaction and the first response that, that anybody who disagrees with is going to say, like, come on, guys, this is clearly not worship. We can draw a distinction here. What would you say to that, Joe? What thoughts do you have on that? [00:15:19] Speaker A: Define worship. And you have to really Separate those. And in my experience with VBS's, they are not separated all that well. So you are doing the Lord's army and you're doing the Father Abraham and all the clapping and, and even sometimes having the women get up there and lead some songs for the kids and, and so we're singing out to God, Right? But that's not worship. That's not worship. No. Then, then we'll enter into actual worship. And so the kids, I'm sure the kids understood the distinction, thousand percent. I'm sure kids really picked up on the nuance between what was and was not worship. As we seamlessly transition from one to the next, they're still singing, they're still praying, they're still doing all of the acts of worship basically, other than maybe giving, they're doing all the acts of worship except, you know, that's not worship is pretty much what it comes down to. Well, it's not Lord's Supper like and then the ice cream social app. Kids don't know the difference. The kids don't understand what exactly is taking place. They just know snacks are passed out. They know that singing's taking place. [00:16:22] Speaker C: They get to shout. [00:16:23] Speaker A: They get to shout. They get all do all those things and then you go to stuffy old church and you go, wow, this isn't as fun. Like, it's not intended to be fun. It's intended to be reverent. And kids, when you blend it in my opinion, I think it's actually detrimental for kids to get this taste of. This is what worship could be. We could sing and clap and shout and do all those things and dance in the aisles and whatnot pentecostally, but we can't. Sorry, that's not what it's supposed to be like. Then why did you let me do it for a week out of the year or however many we get to go to. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Hey folks. Jack here and I wanted to tell you about some restoration movement resources from our new sponsor. If you're interested in the history of the church, Cobb Publishing has got what you need. From general overviews like FW Maddox's Eternal the History of the Church of Christ to biographies of Restoration movement leaders like Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott Raccoon, John Smith and several others, you will be able to satisfy your church history [email protected] shop. From classics like their bicentennial edition of Alexander Campbell's the Christian Baptist, the two volume Complete Alabama Restoration Journal Collection, or brand new books like out of the Women of the Restoration Movement, you will Find the perfect gift for the restoration movement enthusiast on your gift list. Find reliable histories of the [email protected] shop. That's Cobb c o b b publishing.com shop. [00:17:46] Speaker C: My response also to my own question would be worship or not? Is reverence still not expected when you're doing something in the context of God? I mean, VBS is about God. It's, you know, I think about, you know, our home devotionals and is that worship? You know, is that corporate worship? Obviously not. You know, in many instances, Jackson is, who's three, he's getting to lead songs and we're, you know, reading him a story or whatever it is, but reverence is still expected. There'll be times, because it's late night and he's delirious, he'll get up to lead a song and he'll start. And then he'll start kind of moving and jumping and dancing and we tell him, stop. You are. [00:18:25] Speaker A: You are. [00:18:25] Speaker C: You are supposed. You are singing, leading a song. You know, same thing with a prayer. If he wants to, you know, start praying and kind of look around and like, no, there's a reverence that's expected, Worship or not would be. My response to my own question is that just because it's not worship doesn't mean that any. Any bounds for reverence need to go out the window completely. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Right? [00:18:45] Speaker C: Because that, to me, that's also a bit of a difference with the, with the summer camps and stuff like that. Even at summer camp, you've got your fun activities, but when it's time to. To get together for, you know, chapel or for the. For the evening session, there's still reverence. When it's time for the singing to take place, there's still reverence. Even though that's not Sunday morning worship. To your point, Joe, that's where VBS seems to not really be able to delineate very well. And the line, everything blends together so much. So that would be my answer. Is that worship or not worship? Call it what you want. Reverence is still expected would be my answer, Jack. I'm curious your thoughts on that, though. [00:19:20] Speaker B: I think, yeah, you're onto something there of like. And it's the same thing with like, the clapping and things like that. Like, you're gonna teach kids. Yeah, this is. Okay, okay, now you're. You're 18. You got to stop. And we don't expect you to be reverent at all. Okay, now you have to, like, now, you know, the fun church is over. Now you got to Be reverent as an adult. Because that was some of the pushback Brad got. Somebody said that he was crushing little hearts is, you know, you love when people argue like that. But wow. Yeah, yeah. [00:19:49] Speaker C: So there's appeal to emotion if I've ever seen one. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Exactly. Like, oh, you're gonna make them sad. Like, again, the question is, what reverence do we need? And then the idea that, well, as a child. You think as a child. Speak as a child as Paul. Like, yeah, absolutely. And kids, there's a time for kids to get their energy out. There's a time for kids to have a good time. And I think you can have a good time in learning about Bible things like that. I remember marching around the walls of Jericho as a kid and like, yeah, that was fun. We're not going to do that in adult Bible class. You're going to do different things. And I'm okay with that. It is the excess we're talking about. Is there a line at which we go, okay, this is too much. This is too rambunctious, too over the top, too just crazy as it's gotten in some of these things. And so I don't know, as Will mentioned at the start of this episode, like that question of is there a line? I would hope that everybody would be like, okay, that's too much. I mean, you see some of these community church ones where they're talking, you're into the, you know, five to six figures spent on transforming the entire church building and, you know, the at the movies thing or whatever they. [00:20:59] Speaker C: And the ones that, like the one that was themed after Taylor Swift's ERAS tour, you know, like, I would hope we can all look at that and say, okay, that's too far. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, things like that where you're crossing over with a woman who drops a bunch of F words in her concerts and we're going to do our vacation Bible school around that. Like, hang on a second. So somebody might go, okay, that one's too. Well, okay then. Good. We've established that there is a line. Somebody might say, oh, well, no, they're all, okay, well, then we're going to have a disagreement there. But people would bring up Jesus saying, Matthew 19:14, Let the little children come to me Valid. And again, children are going to do things a little differently. I'm not fully on the children to be seen and not heard kind of thing. Yeah, there's a time and a place for them to sit still and be reverent. Like you're talking about. There's a Time and a place for them to get to march around the walls of Jericho or whatever. First Corinthians 14:40. Teaching them to do things decently and in order is not a bad thing. It is not too much to expect of them. And I love that Brad brought up in one of the responses to the comments. In Deuteronomy and Nehemiah and various places throughout the Old Testament, they came for the reading of the law. The whole congregation of Israel said from the youngest to the oldest, that toddler had to sit there and listen as Moses read the law. As they remind you children's Bible is written. Yeah, I mean, like wasn't. Okay, you guys go over there and you guys go dance and sing and try not to be too loud while Moses reads the law to us. It's we're here listening to God, what God has to say. And I think you got to factor that in too. [00:22:27] Speaker A: You have to think about the way kids learn. And this is one of the objections that Brad got on his post is, well, kids learn this way. Kids learn through invitation. Kids look at their parents. It's why it's so important for parents to pay attention to Bible class, for parents to be there during Bible class, pay attention to worship, for parents to sing out as kids will imitate what they see from their parents. We act like the only way kids can learn is if it's an ultra right brain. You know, kind of go all out on these things and that's how it's going to stick in a kid's mind. Like, or you just consistently read through the Bible with your family and you talk about it with them when they rise up and when they lie down, almost like there's a verse about that. Sorry, I shouldn't be snarky, but it's like we act like this is the only way the kids can learn is if we're flamboyant and rambunctious and doing crazy stuff and going bigger and bigger every single year and bringing X wings into the foyer and bringing. And you know, whatever it may be, like, that's the way kids are gonna learn. That's not the way Scripture tells us. It's gonna, you know, that they're gonna learn. It's gonna learn by a family day by day emphasizing these things. There's different ways for kids to learn and to act like this is the way. You know, I was making this point unfair to you guys. It feels like where, where Stop. Why should we stop here? Why would we not do like a, you know, an old folks day where we just have 50s diner and they walk in and it's just been transformed into a 50 center. That's how old people, you know, they're, they're kind of their memories, they can relate to that a little bit better. That really helps them feel included. Like we're doing something for them. And so we're going to have, like you said, we're going to serve some cheeseburgers and some old fashioned milkshakes, hand spun milkshakes and. And we're going to have people on their roller skates kind of going through the aisles. Why not? Why just. Why relegate this to the kids? How come they get to have all the fun things like that? It, it is a. There's once again, why stop? Where should it stop? If it's about entertainment, it's about bringing it in and it's about bringing kids in. And this is the only way kids learn. Like, no, kids will learn through imitation. And if parents are reverent and if they learn that, this is a very serious time, we have to take this seriously, things will change. Kids will learn. Like, okay, that's. And here's the other question that I have for you guys. We take Matthew 19:14, let the little children come unto me. I think we abuse the snot out of that. I think we way overuse that. How much of church should be for kids. You get a ton of pushback on this and people really don't like it when I mention this. But like, how much is it for kids? Because other than that verse that we take, how much are we seeing in the New Testament about kids getting up and doing anything? We see Timothy called a young man, which we assume he's probably in his 20s, maybe even early 30s at that point, being referred to as young. Right. [00:24:59] Speaker C: He's not seeing. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Right. I'm not seeing a lot of like youth events. I'm not seeing any of those things. I don't see youth groups. So how much is church for the young kid and how much should the production of the church be to make the young kids happy? [00:25:12] Speaker C: So I wanted to speak to the Matthew 19 pastor. So I'll do that and then answer your question, Joe. You know, let the little children come to me. You know, Matthew 18, the opening verses, people will go to, you know, become as little children. And what's really frustrating to me about the way people use that, as a guy that commented on dad's post literally just posted the verse. No context, no explanation, like, right, good for you, buddy. Right. Oh, so I forgot that Verse is the one that is pro vbs. Like, you can take that and apply it to anything. I could take that verse and say, oh man, we need to be doing VBS every week. We need to be doing this every single week. Because let the little children come to me. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Like, they learn better that way. [00:25:48] Speaker C: You can just take that version, apply it to whatever. And so that's what frustrates me about that is like, there is a clear point that Jesus was making there. And spending $20,000 on, on a VBS and doing the Hippo song is not the application. There's no. Again, people just want to stretch that so that. That drives me nuts. Like, let me just put this verse here and you know, expect that that's what people think it means. But to answer your question, Joe, about worship being for children, you're right. There's not a lot in the New Testament specifically about children and the church children and worship, especially children and kind of the, the assembling of the church together. I couldn't find hardly anything even about children themselves praying. As I was kind of researching that for a Bible class, there's just not a lot. And so this is where I do think, going back to examples of the law being read, where the entire family was there and you know, obviously the Bible and God is very pro Children, you know, families. And, you know, that's something that is a huge blessing and a wonderful gift. I don't see anything about worship or anything else being catered to. Catered to children, you know, where, where everything revolves around are they. Not even just are they entertained, but you know, make sure that, that they're learning at the expense of the older people, you know, watering down Bible, you know, watering down sermons or watering down Bible classes so that the kids will learn. You just don't see that anywhere. And so, you know, I, I think similarly to the visitor, you know, church being for visitors, obviously we're not going to like doing anything to exclude visitors or anything like that. But hey, you know, worship is for the members. You know, this is for the members. You know, this is. My sermon is going to be aimed at the members, not at the maybe one or two visitors that we have. I think similarly with kids. Like, obviously we're grateful that kids are here. We want kids to be in worship and for them to be a part of the church family. We're not going to revolve everything around them and their response and making everything about them. So that would be my answer. But Jack, what thoughts would you add to that? [00:27:44] Speaker B: This is One of those discussions where you're having to go back to you kind of like clearing the decks and saying, all right, start over. If we were starting the church from the, from scratch, from the ground up, with only the Bible, you know, kind of that thought experiment, would we do this? Like, would you, again, would you find it in scripture? But also culturally, we're in this culture where it's like, oh, you got to have something for the kids, you got to have something. You know, the kids, you always got to put snacks in their hand, you got to give them a game, you got to give them a toy, you got to give them something like it didn't, it wasn't always that way. And we kind of assume, well, that's just how things have to be. Not necessarily. I mean, like that, that's not. There's a lot of ways in which we've kind of lowered expectations on kids and what we can take from them. And so whether you're talking about in the worship service or a vacation Bible school, because that's the other thing is a vacation Bible school started as, let's get kids together while school's out to teach them the Bible, a very simple thing. Maybe we'll sing some songs with them. Very evangelistic thing. Follow up, you know, invite your friends, we'll try and get their parents to come back. And some churches do very good about the evangelistic follow up. Some don't. Some, it's the production. And in fact, that was a church we were part of and we're talking a five figure budget for vacation Bible school. And there literally was not a follow up program. They didn't even know who was there. They knew the numbers. But as far as the kids, who they came from, who their parents were, any of that stuff, it's very hard to track down a couple of some of those years. And so that gets you the question of what were we doing this for in the first place? And so if you went back to the start and you didn't have a VBS and you were going to start it, what would you pitch it as? Would you pitch it as, all right, we're gonna get the kids together and have Bible character lessons. You know, you're gonna have the Jonah one, you're gonna have the, you know, there's always those classic ones or all right, we're gonna do Star Wars Week and we'll put some Jesus in the Star Wars. Like, I don't think we would like, it's one of those, the frog slowly boiling thing. We've gotten to this point and you stop and look around and go, how did we get here? And everybody goes, what, what's the problem? Jesus said, let the little children come to me. Like, no, no, no, no. I, I, you know, we, it's not necessarily the concept in itself, but like, haven't we come a little bit far? And that's kind of the question we're asking with this whole thing. So I guess I'll turn the question back around. I'll be especially interested to hear Joe's side of this. We'll do the VBS thing, then we'll go to the whole church reverence thing a little bit later. But can VBS be done? Well, is there a proper application of it? [00:30:09] Speaker C: I'll let Joe go last. I'll step in. Although maybe it'd be good to get Joe's negative out of the way and I'll come back around with the positive. [00:30:17] Speaker B: No, go ahead, Will. Let's, let's. [00:30:18] Speaker C: Okay, okay. Yeah, I think it can be done. I think it can be done. Well, I don't think that it's a matter of, you know, just completely do away, do away with everything, but I think, I think you got to be very Bible based. I think it needs to be, you know, let's have kids come together. Let's, you know, maybe, you know, because there are some kids songs as well as I think talk about the singing that are not the performative, demonstrative stuff, you know, it's, you know, Jesus Loves Me, just loves little children, Blue Skies and Rainbows. Like those are perfectly great songs to sing that don't involve, you know, Father Abraham had many sons, you know, one leg, two leg, all that kind of stuff. And again, we're going to have to deal with the anti fun argument that, you know, I don't know if we wouldn't want to get to that, that people are going to throw at us. But I think there's, you know, teaching kids how to sing, teaching songs that maybe they like, and then teaching them Bible stories and, you know, you know, themes that are, that are Bible related. I've been, been, you know, a part of some that are, you know, the parables of Jesus or the miracles of Jesus, and they're learning about the miracles and learning about the parables that Jesus did. And, and that was, this is Jack's point, that was the theme. It, you know, it wasn't the Jurassic park theme. And we'll incorporate Moses in here, space aliens theme, and we'll incorporate, you know, a little bit of this and that. So am I just kind of putting my own subjective spin on it? Yes, but I. I think you can do. I guess when I say, can it be done? Well, it can be done reverently, which is the whole point of this episode, is that it can be done in a reverent manner. There's just the question of, you know, how far is too far. Can you have the snacks and stuff afterwards? You know, can you. Can you. Can you have. Once again, just the. The songs where they're singing, you know, the kids are all up front and they're singing like, my. My gut says, yes, you can. That it's not just a matter of shut everything off and we just can't do any of it. You just have. I do think a lot of thought needs to be put into what is the purpose of this. And the evangelistic point is a great one. Like, that was the original point of it. That was the original goal objective of VBS is these kids that are not a part of the church. Maybe they have a rough family. Let's get them exposed to the church. Let's get them in a church building with good Christian people. I think that's noble. I still think that that's a very good objective to have, but that's gotta be more of a focus than I think it is for a lot of congregations. So. Yeah, that's my answer. Joe, what. What would you add? [00:32:41] Speaker A: I actually think it can be done. Well, I'm not against kids Bible classes. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Breaking news here. [00:32:45] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. I'm not against kids Bible classes, and I think it's the same thing. Do I think kids Bible classes could be done better? Yeah. Would I prefer a Bible class where everybody's there and then the parents go and work with the kids during the week and explain it to them? [00:33:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:03] Speaker A: But I'm not condemning anybody for kids Bible classes. And I think this is the same, which is. Is it wrong for kids to get together and learn the Bible? No. No, I'm not. I'm not going to go that far. Is it. Where. Where is my problem? Come in. When the production becomes all about the kids. And really, let's be honest, it's not about the kids. It's about the adults. It's about the adults one upping themselves every single year. It's about the giant budgets where they get to come and just wow the kids. It's the same as taking the kids to Disney World. Like, it's about you. It's not really about them. You. You want to wow them. You want to be the cool parents you want to be, whatever you want to be. The cool church that had the ERAS tour, whatever it is, like, it's about the adults, not about the kids. At some point, when you keep it about the Bible and kids learning the Bible and you know, there's a. Got a good buddy in close, close by, won't out him. But Travis and he talked about it. He's. He's got a small LVBS at his church and it's for his kids or for the kids there, you know, and sounds like he does a great job with it. It's pretty small. They also have a Bible class where they actually sing like real songs after they're not doing the crazy stuff, the hand clapping, the women getting up and leading, things like that. They are pretty grounded. But it's a great time for kids to come together and learn some Bible stories. I don't have a problem with that. I don't think that's wrong. We have to be careful at some point when the production and the budget become so bloated that it's not even funny. As for the objection of the look, my kids have fun six days of the week. I think we can take a day to have reverence. Okay, I think we can take, you know, and while technically it is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday type of thing, like, I think it's better for kids to learn. There are parts of life that you always treat as Reverend. Going back to your point will so well, you just don't want my kids. Don't want your kids to have fun. Like, I don't want my kids to have a blast at a funeral either. There are times where it's okay to be reverent and realize we're dealing with something completely different here. This is not time for you to show both. This ain't time for you to goof around. It's the same thing as having the kid run up and down the pews. That's not your time. There is an aspect of kids are to be seen and not heard that very much comes into play when it comes to this. This ain't about you. We're here for the people of God, for the Christians to come together and worship the Almighty God. And if my kids miss that point at all and if I, if I jumble that in their mind because I'm too busy trying to bring in Star wars night. Like, I have failed as a parent and we have failed as a church. If kids ever get it in their mind that we're doing anything less than worshiping The Almighty. So pardon me if I'm Mr. Fuddy Duddy and I don't want to have fun when it comes to that. There are things that matter. Gravitas, weight, reverence. There are times and places where that's the case. If I go to a five star restaurant with my kids or a three star Michelin restaurant, I'm going to that. I don't want my kid goofing around. There's a time and place to be reverent and to. And to treat it as holy as something that's completely different. Six other days of the week, man. Monday through Saturday, have a blast. Go out and have a ton of fun. We'll take you to the zoo, we'll do whatever else. I'll go throw the Frisbee with you in the backyard. Have a ton of fun. Not when it comes to this. There are things that we keep holy. There are things that we keep reverent. So please don't tell me that I'm Mr. No Fun when it comes to kids. I have four kids of my own. They're blast, man, I love it. I love it to death. This is the almighty God we're talking about here, okay? I'm not going to make a mockery of it. It's the same reason why we don't. Sorry for all those I'm about to offend. We don't watch Chosen. We don't watch the, you know, the, the movies that, that shift and change and things like that. And I know people are going to go nuts. Like it's not making a mockery of God. Yeah, there, there's a level up. So look, at the end of the day, if it's going to take God or going to take somebody, especially my kid's mind away from who this is. We're talking to who this is. We're worshiping who this is. We're learning about trivializing serious stories. We wouldn't trivialize D Day. Well, let's just have a fun play where everybody gets shot. We wouldn't trivialize that. That is very weighty. This is a. That, you know, like, let's treat it as wow, man, look at the sacrifice that was done when we trivialize very serious events like Jonah and like, you know, the flood where 9 billion up to maybe 9 billion people are dying type of thing. Like that's a lot of people. And we trivialize and we have some fun with it. Like let's bring a little gravitas here and let the kids sit in the weight of that. We don't want that for kids because, like, oh, the kids can't handle it. Like, the kids need to know this is a serious subject. The Bible is a serious thing. It is not a play toy. It is not something for your amusement. The Bible is the word of God. The living, breathing word of God that is. Is, you know, I don't know. I'll get off my soapbox. But don't tell me that I'm not fun. Come to my house. We have a ton of fun. Not on Sunday morning. Not when it comes to God. And when it comes to worshiping the Almighty, no, that's not my time to shine. That's not my time to have a ton of fun and to get up there. Which kind of gets into the other general. [00:37:48] Speaker B: Well, to respond to that, I think you make a lot of good points there. Some really interesting stuff, but especially the time and place thing. And this is where a lot of people think, well, a lot of people just don't take kids to funerals. You brought that up of, like, it's not a time. So people go, oh, well, they just can't handle it. We took. I mean, it was for a funeral in Will's family. You know, my kids were there. Joe's kids were there. You know, the kid. You bring them and you say, hey. You sit still and be quiet. And if they won't be quiet, you take them out and you teach them, we're going to be quiet. And then you come back in, make them be quiet. But people won't. Like, you'll see those invitations these days. But wedding, you know, Give us your rsvp. No kids allowed. Like, because, well, we just don't want kids. It'll ruin our day. And some people bring their kids and it would ruin, you know, it would be like this, you know, this big issue. And so, yeah, like, it's because we don't train kids because we kind of think kids need their own thing where they can go crazy and be just maniacs the whole time, but then you actually have worship. Where some churches are like, okay, we'll go send them out. We'll, you know, after the Lord's supper or after five minutes, we'll go send them out to their own thing. Don't do that. They need to be in there. They need to learn. But then other people have the thing of, well, it's a joy to have kids in the church. So they can just scream and run around the auditorium. No, not that either. Like, to. What you're saying is they need to be able to do these things. And so finding the reverence in there, setting that ability to start teaching them. And so, yeah, there's a time to have a good time. And I think you can have a good time with the Bible, but as far as, yeah, it can go too far. But at the base of all of this, and the same thing with the people that want to let their kids run around in church, why we can't confront that, why we can't have this whole discussion about vbs. You're gonna hurt their feelings. That guy, you're gonna, you're gonna crush their, their heart. You know that mom that goes, oh, well, you know, I love my kids and you know you're gonna tell my kids they've got to stop running around the auditorium. Yes, actually, yeah, like that. But we don't do that. We don't have these conversations because somebody's feelings are going to get hurt. Somebody, you know, well, my, my kid needs, you know, vba, they love the, the production and all that stuff. And how dare you take that away from them. Like, we got to stop having conversations on that level. [00:40:01] Speaker C: I don't necessarily want to spin it into this discussion, but what comes to mind with what you guys are saying, Joe, especially your thoughts on the Jack, what you added. Our expectations for kids, teenagers, they're just really, really low. I think about, you know, a soapbox, a non church related soapbox of mine is parents who, man, if they leave their house and they don't have their tablet for their kid, the world is over. Like, you've got to have, you know, if we're going to go out to eat, we've got to have some kind of tablet. If we're going to go, you know, somebody's house or be in a setting for longer than 30 minutes, I got to have the tablet for my 2 year old to stare at. It's like, I promise you, I promise you. I know your expectations are incredibly low for them. I promise you, you can manage them as a parent and they will be able to go and imagine and play and have fun without a tablet in front of their face. But we've lowered expectations for them. It's like, oh, we can't expect them, you know, we're going to go out to eat for 45 minutes. Now. We can't expect them to sit there for that long. So sure, let's bring the tablet. That's kind of a common thread that I see with what you guys are bringing up with the expectations just being so low that, come on, we can't expect them to, to take anything away from the sermon. We can't expect them to sit still during worship. Let's go have children's Bible hour during worship or, you know, where I was when I was growing up, it was Sunday night worship. It didn't happen during Sunday morning worship, thankfully, but Sunday night worship, man. Let's get them into the kids class for Children's Bible Hour. And our expectations are just so low. And I see that continue into the teenage years, you know, as we've talked about before, where, you know, you can't expect them to get up and lead and worship the, the men or the young men. Of course, you can't expect them to, to go out and serve people. You can't really. No, it's, you know, it's youth group fun stuff. It's this and that. Lowered expectations is the theme that I'm seeing here. Once again, you can take it outside of church life with tablets in front of kids or whatever else it is. Let's stop lowering expectations would be my take and take away from this is stop lowering the expectations for the people of God, regardless of their age. And yes, it doesn't mean that we can't have a fun night, you know, again, even when we're here, you know, brought up home devotionals at home, you know, we're not super stoic and sitting there, you know, with our, with our hands in our lap and. All right, no, like, you know, it's, there's a, it's a moment of, of joy for our family. Jackson gets to lead the songs. Like, yeah, you, you can do both. You can be reverent and still, you know, do something special for the kids at home. I'm with you. Like, I just don't see worship being the place for that. We're 40 minutes in. Do you? What, what do you guys want to get into with the kind of general irreverence, taking it outside the realm of vbs? [00:42:40] Speaker B: Hey, folks, you've probably heard us talk about Focus plus and the Deep End. If you're wondering what that is. Focus plus is our subscription service available through Patreon. Every week, members get all kinds of Christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, a sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the Deep End, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for Think Deeper listeners, where you can submit your comments on an episode and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focuspress or go to focuspress.org/ so the let's go with the idea. Sometimes you'll see this of we have to make a joke every time, you know, we get up there. The song leader, the announcement guy, whoever, sometimes even the preacher, you know, it's just jokes, jokes. Again, I think there's a time for a joke, you know, in a worship service or a time to, you know, make, make, you know, make people laugh a little bit. On the other hand, I think it's also noticeable when every single time we got to start off with a joke, we got to start off with a quip, we got to start off with a funny remark or whatever. Like especially as the song leader or if you're the guy opening it up with the, the welcome and the announcements or whatever it may be, you're setting the tone for this and you get up there and it's comedy hour. What tone does that set? And so I think you see that from time to time as one of these ways in which irreverence works its way into worship. And this was one of the only comment I made on Brad's post about the VBS is the more extravagant VBS has gotten has also tracked pretty well with the more irreverent worship has gotten. And I mean, there's some live streams I've seen where it's like, what are you doing? A guy up there in shorts and a Hawaiian T shirt just making joke after joke after joke. And it's like all I could think of was Malachi of God being like, you know what? If that's what you're going to give me, shut the doors. Don't come in. And so if a guy makes one joke, am I saying shut the doors? No. But on the other hand, there is that tone that the worship can take where then the one guy makes a joke and the next guy gets up and he's got to kind of one up the last joke and things like that. You know, if you've been in worship services like that, it's very off putting. [00:44:56] Speaker A: We have a very serious problem with being serious. This isn't just for the kids. Reverence for the kids. We have a tough time with anything serious in our culture. You see how many people have to make a joke about something that takes place. Like, man, if I can't cry, then might as well Laugh type of thing. Like, no, no. Sometimes it's good to just cry and to sit in that and to know that that's okay. Like, you see people where they just have to make a joke about everything. You cannot allow the weight to sit on their shoulders. And so there's levity to get all the weight off. Like, what we're doing is intended to be weighty. We are approaching the almighty God, like you said, Jack, I'm not against a joke that presents itself in the moment, whatever it is. Yeah, we've done that. The constant joking, the way we talk about God, some of the irreverence, the. You can tell in a worship service when somebody's trying to keep it light and fluffy, like, they don't really want any of the weight to sit. There's always like, maybe I'll make a real hard point in a sermon and then make a little joke. And everybody goes, oh, okay. Because we can't just. [00:45:53] Speaker C: Okay. He wasn't serious about that point exactly. [00:45:56] Speaker A: We can't say it. Women are to be, you know, are to stay at home. Well, you know, of course, if their husbands are actually supposed, you know, and they kind of make a little offhand joke to the husbands and puts the husbands down and the wives go, oh, okay, he's not talking about me. Thank goodness. Wipe the sweat off their forehead. Like, no, let it sit. Women are to be keepers at home. Let that sit full stop. Wait for a second. We don't want to just keep rolling because we can't handle seriousness. We can't handle serious matters in our culture. That's a problem we have to get over. And I think that's where so much of the reverence comes from is look at the rest of our lives. We don't take ourselves seriously. We don't take our finances seriously. We don't hardly take our job seriously. We don't take our home life seriously. The one thing we do take more, our diet seriously. The one thing we do take seriously is kid sports that got a lot more serious for some reason. But we, like. There's hardly anything that we take seriously. And I think we're killing ourselves in this way. I think we're really, really. It's detrimental when we can't have serious discussions in serious ways. This is why so much divorce takes place is I think people don't want to have to sit down and discuss the serious weighty things in their marriage and process through these things until it's too late. Like, we have to get used to just accepting the weight that's part of being a man. [00:47:05] Speaker C: Well, and I want to bring up because I got to thinking, you know, what if, because we just got done talking about command, example, necessary inference, last episode and kind of what that looks like. You look at the first century church in Acts and kind of, you know, we don't get a perfect or a super clear picture about what their worships look like or what their worship services look like. You can probably imagine that they took it pretty seriously. And I got to thinking, you know, let's say, you know, time travel existed and Paul and Peter and a couple of the apostles, they came and they attended your church on Sunday morning. [00:47:39] Speaker B: What would they see? [00:47:40] Speaker C: What would they think? What would the Reverend, what would the reverence be, obviously, or Jesus Christ himself, You know, what, what would that look like? And, you know, I've got to thinking, well, Paul himself, he had issues with the way certain worship services were, were going. Have you read First Corinthians where he tells them, you know, this is a circus, essentially talking about the Lord's Supper and hey, let all things be done decently and in order. Paul, very clearly, Paul, inspired of God, did have some pretty serious expectations for worship. And there was clearly a church that it wasn't very organized, seemed to be pretty chaotic. A lot of people were doing their own thing. It was not being taken seriously. And what was Paul's message? Hey, let's get it together here. You know, be serious about this. Let all things be done decently in order. He corrects that behavior, he calls out that behavior, he calls out that church and that worship service. Pretty strong application there. I think, for us, as you guys are talking about this kind of seriousness in worship. You know, there's a lot of the other you've got on here, Jack, kind of the, the sermon series themes and you know, the very pop culture, very, you know, you know, movie and entertainment related. I don't know. That's just where my mind went to was First Corinthians where Paul is clearly saying, yeah, this chaos, circus, show of worship service, it's not going to fly. You need to change that. [00:48:57] Speaker B: I wanted to talk about the theme thing. I think that's where VBS is leeching into because all those comments were like, well, it's for the kids, it's for the kids, it's for the kids. But then this stuff, when you start thinking this way on, oh, what would be cool? And that's where you get, you know, the, the very culturally themed service thing. I remember when Stranger Things came out, it was the big Netflix show. And, you know, everybody was talking about Stranger Things and seeing how church is having for their Christmas theme that year was manger things with the logo. Kind of like, grow up and, you know, or things like there's at the movies series where, you know, people talk about, like, finding God in Indiana Jones, finding God in, you know, star, whatever it may be. You've got those. Yeah. I knew a guy that, like, took his favorite pop music songs and that was what he wanted to. You know, he would. He would preach the lyrics, and then he'd talk about how the Bible relates to those lyrics. Here's a sermon on Tom Petty's I won't back down and standing for your convictions. Like, I. Man, we all use illustrations for sure. But then, you know, this thing of, like, all right, this month is going to be Manger things month or whatever. Like. Or even, like, the costumes. Yeah, you know, you'll see guys get up there in the costumes and stuff, and then like, what are we doing? We're vbsing worship. [00:50:19] Speaker A: And we wonder why so many young people are going to Orthodoxy, going to Catholicism. Like, they take themselves seriously because the priest comes in and. Yeah, Anglicans and things like that, you know, with the. Some of those people can go with Episcopalians, they can go way off. But I don't see the priest coming in in some bluey costume. Sorry. You know, this is. This is to God. There is a seriousness, a weight to this, and they understand there's a time and place to be serious. And now is the time when we start blending those things and you're coming in with your, you know, your various costumes, because that's really going to connect with people. People are going to remember that again, I'm all for good illustration. At what point has this become a circus? And at what point is this, you know, the. The desire to stay culturally relevant takes us away from scripture. Like, no, it's very grounded in scripture. It's a very biblical sermon. Like, and what do people come away thinking, wow, he was up there in a. In a. Whatever it was costume. Like, come on, we have to think about that. And if you don't take yourself seriously, why should I take you seriously? And if you're going to bring the word of God down to a. To a place where everybody's. You're basically a laughingstock. You're ultimately. You are the laughingstock. I don't see Jeremiah going out there and having to be super relevant or Isaiah. Like, they're going out there preaching the word of God and Getting killed for it. So preachers that don't take themselves seriously, preachers that get up and make a mockery of basically the entire thing, the entire. Because it's all about clicks and views these days. It's all about the laughs and drawing people in. Like, Jonathan Edwards was monotone as all get out. He gets up there and delivers one of the toughest, most meaningful sermons ever given. I don't think he was up there in a Scooby Doo costume, because that's what's going to bring the people in. Like, he took himself seriously and people go, whoa, so take yourself seriously, man. The irreverence in worship is unbelievable. [00:52:08] Speaker C: Back when we did our orthodoxy episode, I made the point that young, specifically young men. But I would say, you know, people in general, they want to be a part of something that feels important. They want to be a part of something that feels serious and important is the word I would use. And they look at church, they look at, you know, Church of Christ, not just with the irreverence thing, but kind of with the no expectations and, you know, show up two hours a week, and that's kind of all we're asking of you. And so their response is, okay, so what you're telling me is this is not all that important, so then why should I get invested in it? And I think this irreverence thing very much comes into it with people going to high church, specifically young men. They don't see it as serious, they don't see it as important. It's like, I'm sorry, I'm going to spend my time being a part of something that is important and this is just not it. And so, yeah, I think that that definitely plays into this. We've got on here as well, making worship all about kids. Kind of the idea of, you know, we've been to a church, we were all visited a church together where in the middle of worship. Not the beginning, I think, and in the middle of worship, I think it was right before the sermon, if I remember right, all the kids got up together and ran to the. You know, basically collected money and then ran to the front. And then, if I remember right, I'm almost positive about this. They then exited the auditorium to go to their class before the sermon was preached. And I mean, we could go on and on. There's so much to this. The casual clothes that people wear. We had an episode about that of, you know, once again, that's where I would come to. We all have a line. It's just, where is Your line on what people should and you know, not even can wear what they should wear to church. And so as we kind of look to wrap up guys, is there anything else you really want to cover? I think we've made our point well, which is, you know, not to pat ourselves on the back. I think we've made at least gotten the point across that there is an attitude of reverence that should be expected and should be in my opinion, raised and heightened for worship, but also for church related things in general. What would you guys have to kind of, as we kind of look to wrap up here? [00:54:09] Speaker B: We've said the word reverence like a hundred times for good reason. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Why? [00:54:14] Speaker B: The question that has to be asked is what is the purpose of all this? And I think what gets lost in all this and I think it's kind of the feminized church thing and those things we've talked about. We're talking about spiritual warfare here, right? We're talking about, I mean there are literal angels and demons involved. This is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and you know, all of those powerful descriptions we're talking about. And again, the God that if anybody touched the Ark of the Covenant, as was brought up earlier, dropped dead. Like you're in the highest stakes battle of all time. And we're going to get up there and you know, do the father Abraham got his arms and legs going kind of thing, or we're like, this is spiritual warfare and I'm going to get up and preach the Sunday sermon in a fireman's costume. Like, how do you reconcile those messages? And so I've given these book recommendations before, but I think they're very helpful for these kind of discussions. Why men hate going to church. This is one of them. And this is one of the things he talks about is it's not geared toward them. The other one, the Church Impotent by Leon Potles. Both of them very much on like the church has lost its way of a. As the hub, as the army for spiritual warfare. No, it's a social club and it acts like a social club. And if we started thinking of these decisions in terms of an army, I think we'd get back to, you know, there's still a place for kids, there's still a place for having a good time, but you don't lose the reverence when you start from that foundation. [00:55:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. That's, that's a great way to wrap. We are going to push the ways to take it more seriously to the deep end. We have a few ways and I think that might be a. A good thing for. So if you're not part of the deep end, make sure to join us at focuspress.org/ and join us on our Patreon and you get an extra podcast a week. Usually goes about 30 minutes or so, 25, 30 minutes. And where we take your comments and so make sure to join us there where we will discuss ways to take this more seriously. As you said, Jack, we use reverence a lot. This really does matter. I'm glad you hit that, because that's where I was going to wrap as well is you got to understand the why. Why are we doing any of these things and if we don't have a good reason other than, you know, to have fun and, and make sure that, that the kids know that we care about them. Yeah, my kids know that I care about them. They know that I care about their spiritual health. And there's, I think, better ways to do it. And so I love your wrapping point. Will. Any other thoughts you'd have for it? [00:56:33] Speaker C: I would just go back to Hebrews 12, you know, therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear for our God is a consuming fire. That's. That's really at the heart of what this. I appreciate Jack putting that on the outline because that's really the heart of what this episode is about. I am very interested to hear what people think, the kind of the comments. As Joe said, make sure and leave those comments. Anything else, guys, before we wrap up? All right, if not very. We thank you very much for listening to this episode of the Think Deeper podcast. We will talk to our deep thinkers, our Focus plus subscribers on Friday and everyone else next week. Thank you so much.