Don’t “Follow Your Heart”

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome in to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Harab. And we have a great episode for you today that Jack has put together. The outline. Pretty excited to get into this one because this is something that has kind of been on the back burner for a. A while that we've been wanting to get to. He's had it kind of sitting there and we decided to pull it out at this point and really work through this idea of following your heart. Kind of the standard Disney advice. But before we get into that, a couple quick, quick things that we want to get to. First off, there is going to be a new focus plus exclusive from Dr. Brad Harab, his brains and brew video series, which is him just answering a lot of different questions. He's already recorded them. We're going to have those going up soon. The first one or two will be free. Make sure to check those out. But this is also hopefully to get you to subscribe to focus plus as we've been telling everybody to do for a long time. Yet another great offering that I know that's probably boastful to say, another great offering. But I truly do believe in the work we got. I don't know. I'm proud of focus plus. I think we got a lot of good stuff daily. Devo is going up, obviously the deep end. Jack's got exclusive articles going there. We're going to have Brad's exclusive video series there. [00:01:19] Speaker B: There's the revelation Bible class. [00:01:21] Speaker A: That's right, Revelation Bible. We got all sorts of stuff and we're not stopping there. We got more things coming throughout the year, so make sure to sign up there. Secondly, Jack's book has released and is flying off the shelves. I had a client reach out and was looking for some books and said, yeah, I can bring you a few books, bring you a couple. And sure enough, we're out. So we're ordering more and they're flying off the shelf. So make sure you get your own copy. That is Sunday school catch up. Almost got that one wrong. Sunday school catch up. [00:01:50] Speaker C: Slick book. [00:01:51] Speaker A: I was looking through it, flipping through it just last night. Lot of good information in there. This is going to be perfect for new converts. You got somebody comes into your church. Maybe they missed all of the Bible classes growing up. Who's know what's the story of Esther? We reference these things in sermons, especially as preachers. There's a lot of people sitting there that may not know what that is. They may not understand these concepts. Jack's done a fantastic job. Very easy book. Not like ultra thin, but thin enough where I think you could get through it pretty quickly. And I'll say this and then I'll wrap up because I know it's going long, but if you are a church, especially elders, church leadership, I would strongly encourage you to pick up maybe ten copies. Keep them on hand for baptisms, keep them on hand for people to come. [00:02:36] Speaker C: In, things like that. 75, start with 100 copies. Seems good. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, if you have members in your church. [00:02:45] Speaker C: Perfect. [00:02:46] Speaker A: There you go. So I really would encourage you. Yes, partly because we're focused, pressed and we sell our stuff. But no, genuinely, just as somebody who I think know I will be using this to hand out to people. So make sure to check that out. Fellas, anything else before we jump right in? Jack, I'm going to let you take this one away since again, this is your outline and you've been stewing on this one for a bit. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah, we wanted to just talk about the. I don't know, there's a lot of pop religion out there, but there's a lot of bad advice that people get and kind of the way people live their lives, the values they have these days. A lot of it is based on the idea of just follow your heart. And there's a lot of different ways that that is said. Some of them sound more religious, some of them not as much. Do what makes you happy is one that obviously, I think a lot of people like it because of. Do what makes you happy. Sounds great, but it doesn't work out, number one. Number two, that's not christian in any sense. But then, as I said, we can put a religious veneer on it. People say, well, I come to God in my own way. God knows my heart. You'll see the bumper stickers. God is my copilot. Well, no, he's not. But just wrapping all those things together, people really think that what they do is pick where they want to go in life, do what makes sense to them. Trust your heart. You've kind of got that deep gut instinct and that's a good thing that you need to follow and go for. And that God is grandfatherly, that he's kind of your cheerleader, he's your support that you can fall back on. And, man, I know people, you couldn't get them to walk in a church building door for anything. But they'll talk about how they pray. I ask God to help me with this. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Why? [00:04:27] Speaker C: And so you want some religiousness in there, but underneath it all is just this very atheistic sense of follow your heart, that deep down in the pit of your stomach, you know what's right for you, and so do that. [00:04:39] Speaker B: I see this a lot in, obviously, pop culture, and I think this is where it does impact young people quite a bit, because you think about all the songs talking about the heart wants what it wants. And like you said, follow your heart, and your heart wants this. Your heart wants that. Everything is centered around that. You think about the movies, and young people are mostly watching shows now, not movies, but like the Nicholas sparks type movies, where everything is just about emotion and following your heart and all these things. That's kind of the bill of goods that the world is selling people when it comes to relationships, when it comes to what they do with their life. Again, everything is very emotion driven. Everything is very heart driven. And so what that feeds into, obviously, where we're going to kind of get to all these areas of religion and your life purpose and your marriage, just how bad of advice that is, because we know, biblically speaking, of course, that there's a way that seems right to a man, but God is supposed to be the one to direct the steps. Following your heart is such a problem because it is like you're kind of just blindly going wherever your emotions go. And as all three of us know, your emotions can take you places that you probably should not go. Your heart can take you places where you probably should not go. But again, we have young people growing up in a world where that is sold as the right thing or that is sold as the ultimate life of just following your heart. You see it also with people that are like, I've gone off on kind of chase your dreams culture before, kind of that idea of, well, just whatever's in your heart to go do, just go do it, and you can be anything you want to be. Chase your dreams. I think that kind of falls right in line with this. That's really bad advice. And it's not biblical advice either, as we're going to get to Joe. Anything to add to that? [00:06:24] Speaker A: I'm curious, kind of as we get started here, I have a tough time viewing this as, like, a thing. I guess two questions arise out of that for me. First off, where did this begin? Because very strongly seems to almost be a Disney esque 1990s. This is kind of where it starts to come in. I don't know if it's Disney. I want your thoughts on it. The second thing, though, is, is there a level of this is swinging the pendulum from the hellfire brimstone God is a God that's ready to strike you down to God just wants you happy God knows my heart he knows where I'm at I'll come to God my own way. All of this. Is Oprah a part of this with kind of some of her? Where do you think this got started? And is this a pendulum swing from the hellfire brimstone? [00:07:12] Speaker C: Hellfire brimstone. But also just like community of ties and rights and rights versus duties, citizenship, all that stuff that just doesn't mean anything anymore, that everyone's broken down to the individual and the individual becomes the God. Nobody can tell you to do otherwise. If they're telling you not to follow your heart, they're bad for you, get them out of the way, they're toxic. And things like that we've talked about before. And so everything in society that you've seen, and really, I guess post World War II has been about breaking down any kind of obligation to other people, to God, to anything else but yourself and what feels good in the moment. And you see that coming through the hippie, whatever, Woodstock kind of influence. And honestly, I enjoy music as much as the next guy. I'm not somebody who's saying, listen to a guitar song is going to send you to hell. But the history of rock and roll music, I mean, lyrically, you just look at all of it. As Will said, this stuff comes through in the culture. And so I think that's one of the big roots of it, is rights versus duties is a really big thing. And it's not duty to community, duty to family, duty to church. It's the rights that you have. And people come to their church membership like that. That's something I wanted to turn this to, and so I'll hand it over to will here in a second. But the way churches even look at it is we can't really expect anything of people. We're just offering something to people. Rights and duties. I mean, it comes down to that. Yeah. [00:08:43] Speaker B: I'm actually going to let Joe jump in here because I was going to go ahead and move us into the next section. But Joe, you probably do want to answer your own question, as you've kind of been stewing on it there. What are your thoughts on where it came from? And I guess the other question you. [00:08:54] Speaker A: Asked, well, I am fascinated by kind of World War II history coming out of it, really the transition point coming out of World War II. This is the baby boomer generation. I know this isn't super popular, but people who've listened to the podcast for long enough know struggle with that generation a little bit with the baby boomer generation. Because I do believe this is, to Jack's point, this is the 60s sexual revolution. Everything else as they get into that, I think that's where individualism comes from. I think it arose from the idea of the greater good, the greatest generation we talk about who is willing to put everything on the line to serve the country and whatnot. A lot of homes were broken. A lot of people grew up, maybe without fathers. Whatever it is that I think can make that very challenging and very difficult. To the point that I think what exploded out of that is speaking of pendulum swings, swinging back from doing everything for the sake of the country, community, everything else, to it's my time, my time to shine. And so what do we see? Sixty s, seventy s. And then as you get into the 80s, that's the era of money and consumerism and commercialism and materialism and everything else that everybody's doing very well in the 80s. Ronald Reagan, Reaganomics. And so all of it's leading toward this individualism. It would make sense that it would come into religion, that it wouldn't stay to your point, but both of you, right. That it wouldn't stay just cultural. It would really start seeping into the religion. So I think a lot of this individualism, the God of individualism, has roots going back to coming back out. [00:10:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I was just briefly on that. I'm going to give the boomers a little credit here. I think they almost didn't have a choice. That table was set before them and they just got swept away in it. True, because the word teenager was coined in the 50s, before any of them were teenagers. And I think that is a shift culturally toward lack of responsibility. Young people don't have duties. Let's go have a good time. And everything that followed that. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Unfortunately, though, they took the ball that was dropped and dropped it even say that. [00:10:57] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what they grew up in and didn't think to question. So anyway, we had generational episodes. Let's not do. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Let me get to. Go ahead, Joe, do you have something else? [00:11:08] Speaker A: No, I was going to say, and I do think that our generation is particularly rampant. I think Disney has a big part to play. We are big anti Disney boycott people here. But I do think Disney had a big part to play in this coming into the millennial verbiage, so to speak, because the follow your heart, chase your dreams, as you mentioned. Will all of those things know? We were watching Disney Channel movies and such. Every Disney Channel movie was about that. Forget the stupid point, Lizie Maguire, and chase your dreams. [00:11:36] Speaker B: It was about being different, too, like stepping out, because in the last century, the 20th century, a lot of it, as Jack said, was about community. And you work your same job you've been at 30 years and go home to your family and the next generation. I guess the millennials came up with that in hindsight, and was like, well, that seems kind of boring. I'm going to go do these other things. And you have all these other jobs that have come about, and you've got liberal arts degrees and all this stuff that, I don't know, it's almost like it was a rebellion against the standard practices of, again, being really focused on your community, being really focused on your church family, being really focused on your family. Kind of a rebellion against that. But I want to get into this next term that we've got on our outline. Moralistic therapeutic deism. Bit of a mouthful there. I would imagine a lot of our listeners probably are familiar with it because I think we brought it up before, but a lot of you probably aren't. And so I'm going to try to break that down. Jack is going to be far better at breaking that down than me. So, Jack, maybe you can fill in the gaps or maybe correct me where I go completely off the rails here, but I'm sure you will. Yeah, I appreciate that. Moralistic therapeutic deism is kind of, to be honest, what a lot of, I would even say church of Christ. People in the church, people who would call themselves Christian, believe in practice without knowing it. It's one of these things that. I'll define it here in just a second, but it's one of these things that I truly believe based on people's actions, based on the way people live their lives, they subscribe to this idea, this moralistic therapeutic. So let's. Let's kind of break that down. And again, Jack, I'll let you go next. You have fill in the gaps. So you have those three words. So moralistic, kind of the idea that just be a general good person, have good morals, don't kill people, don't cheat on your. Again, you know, be a decent person, be a good person, have good morals. You have the therapeutic word, which is next. Which is kind of that your personal happiness is really at the center, and that your life is really kind of about what makes you happy, kind of the follow your heart concept here. And then deism is, of course, the idea that God is not really involved in day to day life, in your day to day life as a Christian, he's very distant. I think the classic deists used the example of he set the watch into motion and then steps back and the watch now runs itself. Basically the idea that, again, that God is not involved. And so essentially what you get from that whole concept, that whole idea of moralistic, therapeutic deism is just generally kind of be a good person and your life is kind of about your happiness, and basically good people will go to heaven. God's not really going to step in anywhere in there. And again, I do think that's how a lot of christians live their life is. Well, let me just try to be a good person again. I'm not going to cheat on my spouse, not going to kill anybody. I'm not going to maybe cheat on my taxes, but I'm not really going to be called anything greater. I'm not going to pursue any more Christ likeness. I'm not really going to believe that God is actively involved in my prayer life or anything here. It's just kind of this thing that makes us feel good because, a, we believe in God, b, we're kind of basically moral people, and then c, we believe that, hey, if I'm a good person, kind of my good deeds outweigh my bad, I'm going to end up in heaven because that's kind of all God cares about. Jack, what would you add to that definition? And I think it was originated from a Christian Smith book or something like that is where it first came out. So go ahead and fill in the gaps there. [00:14:50] Speaker C: No, I think that's a great description. And like you said, it is kind of the default when somebody says they're a Christian in America. [00:14:56] Speaker B: That's what they mean. [00:14:57] Speaker C: That's what they observe, is moralistic therapeutic deism. And the problem with the deism part is the therapeutic is God's there to answer your prayers, God's there to make you feel good, give you assurance of heaven, kind of the deep down feeling good about yourself kind of thing. As far as any governance over your life, that's where the deism comes in. And so the moralistic, you're left to define it for yourself. Like, what's a good person? And so you've got a lot of people who claim to be christian and think, no, because I support LGBT, I'm a good person. Well, God has something to say about that. But you're not letting him. You're not letting him make the definitions. You're not making him lord overall, there's no submission in it all. There's no obedience in it at all. And the real problem with this is a lot of churches know that that's what people are looking for, and so that's what it gives them. We're really not going to come down on anything. We're going to try and persuade you of what we think is a better way. Well, do this because it'll make you happier. It will make you happier. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Their goal is to generally make people feel good. [00:15:55] Speaker C: Right, the church's goal. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:56] Speaker C: And so even any obedience we push is because of you, because you're the God, because you do what you want. And we did a whole episode on choose your own adventure, Christianity, trying to get people to engage and be disciples and all that is like, well, to whatever degree you're comfortable with, we would love it if you were here every time the doors were open and volunteered and involved in the work. But if you want to just show up every now and then because that's what you want, that's how you see your relationship with God. Well, we're not going to do otherwise. We're not going to exercise church discipline. We're not going to meet with you and say, you've got to step it up or, this is Christ's kingdom and you need to bow the knee and obey him. Obedience is mean. And we talked about the he gets us thing previously and things like that. Obedience, the word doesn't exist in this brand of Christianity that's so popular. [00:16:44] Speaker A: Well, again, it all comes back to the feel good. That's what we want, to make people feel good. And one of the guys that, I don't think he's right theologically, but it is always interesting to see the street preaching of Ray comfort because a lot of people show up with this of like, well, yeah, I believe in God and I'm a good person. I'm a moral person. I do good things and I'm going. [00:17:05] Speaker C: To go to heaven. They always say, I'm going to go to heaven because I'm a good person. So you got your moralism, you got your therapeutic part. [00:17:11] Speaker A: It's exactly like. It's a very karma like system. You know, we wouldn't call it karma, but it basically is that of like, well, I'm a good person. I get good things in return because I'm a good person. And what Ray comfort does, and I have used this before, people of like, okay, have you ever told a lie, any small, just white lie, little, you ever. And he breaks it down. Have you ever used God's name in vain even like, gosh, things like that. Have you ever used that? Yeah. Have you ever taken something that's not yours? Taken a pencil from something? Yeah. Have you ever lusted after something? Yeah. And so he gets people to go, okay, so by your own admission, you are a lying, not as moral as. [00:17:47] Speaker B: You think you are. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterous person. Like, do you really think you're a good person after this? And so he breaks it down just using the ten commandments basically to let people know what breaks through the moral, therapeutic deism is I am a massive sinner and I need the grace of Christ. And if I need his grace and I'm desperate for his grace, what's my response to it? Well, obedience is the response to it. How do I come into that grace? Yes, it's a free gift, but we also have to accept the gift. And what is required after that? Well, to be obedient, right. To walk on the narrow way. And so as nice as it sounds. Yeah. The more we let people believe this, that really it's all about your happiness and such, we're doing people a grave disservice. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Well, think about why this is so appealing, and then we can get into kind of the different areas that this impacts religion, life, purpose and marriage and things like that. But think about why this is so appealing for the average church. [00:18:40] Speaker A: Go. [00:18:40] Speaker B: And again, even in the church of Christ you say, well, this isn't a church of Christ problem. How many churches of Christ do you know of where they have? I mean, everybody knows the term smos, right? Sunday morning, only the people who just show up to punch the clock, the people who are not going to be involved in the other way. The classic trope of we have a 200 member congregation. Oh yeah. How many do you have on Sunday night? 75. This happens in the church of Christ too. And I think people think that, again, that they're immune to it and they're not. Why is it so appealing? This whole, this follow your heart Christianity, God of individualism, moralism, all these things we're talking about, why is it so appealing? It's because you get to have the best of both worlds. You get to live kind of however you want to. You get to not really have any restraints. Again, sure, maybe the big sins you don't do, you don't kill, you don't cheat on your spouse, whatever. Everything else, though, you feel like God doesn't really have any say over. So maybe you can subscribe to liberal ideology maybe you can, again, not really have any commitment to God outside of the church building. You can devote all your time to chasing money or you can raise your kids however you want to. All these things. Like, you get to do all that. But then you also get to claim God. You get to claim that you believe in God. You get to claim that you're going to go to heaven when you die, that you're a generally good person. And so it's kind of, you get to have your cake and eat it, too. You get to have the best of both worlds without, again, what they don't realize that we're about to get to is that's not true Christianity. That is the, again, kind of fake ideal version where people, again, can live however they want to but still claim God. That's the appeal of it. That's why there's so many people that think, man, cool, I can show up at 10:00 on Sunday morning and I can check my Christianity box while I can still go live the way that I want to the rest of the week. Yeah, sure, I'll sign up for that. And that's why, again, especially in Christendom, churches are basically selling it that way. But that's why it's so appealing is because you kind of get to have your cake in you too. It's a best of both world scenario. [00:20:28] Speaker C: Yeah. You want a savior, not a lord. You want a lamb, not a lion. You want a father and not a king. And it's like, guess what? He is a father and a savior and a lamb and all those things. Only if he's also a king and a lion and a lord, and it's the rich young ruler. I'm a good person. You can't command me to do know, like every single one of these people is living the rich young ruler lifestyle. I want to go to heaven. I'm trying to be a good person. You can't tell me to do mean, obviously we see Jesus and the rich young ruler. He did not say, well, okay, just give part of your money. Can we get you to come on Sunday, Sunday night maybe every now and then? You just said, that's it. Sorry. That's what I'm going to require. And if you can't take it, no go. And we have to have that attitude as well because, man, telling people, follow your heart. Telling people you can have this religion where you're driving the car, man, it's very bad for them in this life and does not give them eternal hope. [00:21:30] Speaker A: Well, you got a few verses on here, I want to get to Jeremiah 17 nine. The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it? And then just verse ten, I, the Lord, search the heart. I test the mind, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds. The heart is deceitful. It tells you right there like this, follow your heart. And we're going to get into the different ways, but, well, yeah, I'll save it. I'll save it because it'll come to it. But recent discussion on who gets to determine the heart, even the heart of others. There's been some recent discussion in the church and such as who gets to determine who's right, who's changed things like that. Look, the heart is very deceitful, and we have to bring these things to God. We have to make sure that you. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Can'T use that as your compass, essentially. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Exactly. And then the other one that we had. I don't know if you guys have this pulled up. I'll just go to it real fast. Proverbs three five through seven. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make your path straight. Do not be sorry. [00:22:34] Speaker B: I was going to say that's the opposite of the deism part. That's like you fully putting your trust in God and letting him direct your steps as he will make God kind of just out there somewhere and he's there if I need him type of thing. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And just to finish verse seven, do not be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord and turn away from evil. To your point, this is the moral side of it, is I'm wise in my own eyes. I get to determine what's good. I get to determine what's required of me. I get to follow my heart because I think my heart is overall pretty good. Look, I'm trying to help people. I'm trying to be nice. And so if you feel that your heart is inclined toward people or toward God in that way, you're a lot more likely to trust it. Now, here's before we jump into it, because we want to get into three different ways we see this. Can we trust our conscience? Because there's a level of James 417 coming into him, knows the right thing to do and doesn't do it'sin. That tells me there is a level of heart. How do you know? So we say, hey, don't follow your heart per se, but there is a level of. We have to engage with our heart ought to be inclined toward God. And I don't even know how to ask the question, I guess, but where is the fine line between? And maybe it's not a fine line. It might be a very thick line between follow your heart and you do need to know your heart and know what you're doing is sin or not sin and kind of trusting your conscience. Does that make sense as a question? Following your heart versus trusting your conscience? It's a good question, and I'm putting you on the spot here, but I am curious. [00:23:59] Speaker C: I think it's knowing the difference between your natural fleshly desire and spiritual desire. Spiritual desire is from the heart. You're pointing your heart towards God and holiness and that which is good and right and true. And so heart is involved in that. But it's so clear, especially the further you get into it, the more you mature as a Christian, which I mean, Hebrews five talks about this is your maturity as a Christian is being able to discern right and wrong is knowing when your heart is telling you something that is its own sinful desires. Paul in Romans seven of like, I want to do the right thing and I do the wrong thing. My heart is pulled in two directions, and the scripture is itself telling you which one is aligned when your heart is aligned in the right direction. [00:24:44] Speaker B: We just had our Calvinism episodes. It's very interesting because we're not going to get into an original sin discussion here, but I would tend to argue that your heart naturally is going to lead you in what direction? As Jack just said, your carnal, fleshly desire, what you want to do, that's naturally what's going to happen. And in a way, again, I'm just kind of echoing Jack's point, but you have to train your heart almost to go the other direction. But the point is, that's a different effort to just kind of follow after your own desires. That doesn't take a lot of effort. You don't have to train your heart to do that. Your heart does that naturally. Whereas Joe, to answer your question, I do think it is more of a, you are conscious of where your heart is leading you and acknowledging that that is wrong. And so, yes, your heart is, in a way, you're training your heart, so to speak, to seek after God. Because I do believe the more you get into God's word, the more you get invested in prayer and meditation and the closer you are to God. Your heart does tend to naturally want to seek after God more. It's not like it's always trying to pull yourself back into the carnal fleshly desires, but you have to kind of take those steps and again, maybe train it is not the right word, but does that make sense? Once you start down that path and really continue down that path, it does get easier, I would say, because your heart will naturally more seek after God. That's all very subjective, but that would be my answer. [00:26:00] Speaker C: Well, and you go back to when homosexuality was being debated. I mean, we don't even debate it anymore, but there was a time in which it was a hotly debated issue. That was one of the things they would always say, well, I have this desire. God gave me this desire. God made me this way. I was born this way, all that stuff. The fact that I have this desire means it's natural and right and good. It's like I've got two year olds. The thing they desire to do over and over all day long is the wrong thing. If I just said, well, he desired to take that toy from his sister, so it must be natural and from God. But that's follow your heart logic. This is a good thing for me to do because I want to do it. [00:26:36] Speaker B: His heart was telling him, run outside, out the door towards the parking. [00:26:42] Speaker C: Yeah, that's his natural desire. Let him follow his heart straight in front of oncoming traffic. I mean, come on. [00:26:49] Speaker A: But it's so simple. [00:26:50] Speaker B: How would you answer your own question, Joe? [00:26:52] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think you guys answered it. Well, I was going to say from the conscience is if we couch it as what's bringing me closer to God and what's not, then can I trust my heart? Well, if my heart is inclined toward what's bringing me closer to God, it's very difficult to be a Sunday morning, only Christian, or to want to stay in whatever sin you're in and feel like, well, I'm following my heart and God understands me. Is it drawing you closer to God or is it not? If it's not drawing you closer to God, you're probably on the wrong path. The whole point of James 417 is so as to please God. And that's the goal here. And that's the difference with following your heart. And I want to use this chat because you mentioned the rich young ruler of, like, he did think he was following God. He thought he was doing pretty good here. But this gets us into kind of the first sub point of following your heart. People go, we're just now getting. [00:27:40] Speaker C: Before we get to that man, I've drawn a blank of, yeah, there it is, psalm 37. Four, delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. It's trusting in God that when you tell him, hey, I want what you want, I know my desires are crooked, that he will give it to you. And people, the prosperity gospel, twist that to, oh, he'll give you whatever you want. He'll give you a million dollars. [00:28:02] Speaker A: No, it's not that. [00:28:03] Speaker C: He'll give you himself and so point your heart towards him. You don't have to know the way, because again, your heart is not very good at that. You're trusting in him, that he's showing you the way. Sorry, carry on as we go into that. [00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's perfect. And we're being changed into desiring. What does make us happy is God. And so this is walking by the spirit. [00:28:23] Speaker B: Right? Again, I was just saying, if you train your heart to follow after your own desires over and over again, how much easier is that going to be again, to just go down the path that you want to go down and to make exactly together. [00:28:36] Speaker A: The conscience gets seared after a time. We've already covered a lot of this on the religion. Luke 923, the rich young ruler bringing that part in. [00:28:44] Speaker B: How Luke 923, your heart. I was going to say, Luke 923 is about taking up your cross daily, denying yourself. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Denying yourself, yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Again, does not have any part in moralistic, therapeutic deism and any of this stuff. The follow your heart. It's truly to deny yourself all these things that we talked about. But, yeah, I mean, this was the first area Jack put on his outline of how this follow your heart advice, God of individualism. Stuff seeps into our religion, and it is a lot of stuff we've already talked know, the idea that, well, I'm going to go to a church that really suits my, know, kind of the churches that make me feel good, whether that's a worship style or whether that's maybe sermons, maybe you go after as far as the church of Christ, maybe it's. Well, his sermons aren't very challenging. So I kind of like sitting. I mean, I've heard people say before, man, I really just like to listen to encouraging sermons. Well, you don't say that's because it makes you feel better type of thing. I think that is fruit of it. There's evidence of it as well. Again, the way it seeps into religion is kind of all the stuff we've already talked about. Like you just get to kind of check off your christian box, you just get to do things that make you feel better and never get your toes stepped on. Never have to change anything. I think that's what I would sum it up as. You never have to change anything. You can do and live however you'd like to. And you can keep religion as a part of your life because of this. What would you guys have to add to this kind of religion section as far as how the follow your heart advice seeps in just anything that challenges. [00:30:09] Speaker C: People as you're saying, anything that changes people. But even when you have to do something that you're not comfortable with, well, I don't like that person. I'm not getting along with somebody throw all the one another commands out the window. I'm just going to go somewhere else where I don't have to deal with that kind of thing. I mean, the church hopping epidemic, especially here in the Bible belt where there's just so many of them, is such a big deal. As you say, I don't like the preacher there, or I don't like that he said that, or that I'm not allowed to do this when I come here. Who cares what you want? This is. Again, it goes back to obedience. You're not the king. Your desires do not trump anything that God told you you have to do. But again, people come to church with that mindset. And church leaders know people are coming to church with that mindset. So they think their job is appeasement, is let's keep as many people happy as possible so that we can have as many people in the church as possible. It's like you can do that, but you're never going to have an effective church that way. [00:31:05] Speaker A: I don't really have much more to add on the religion point. We've already covered some of that before. I think you guys hit that really well. The second area we see this, I would say in following your heart is life purpose. This has gotten us into some hot water. Especially Brad has gotten him into some hot water. But first thing that you have on the list under life purpose, what should we be striving for? What's the thing that really gives purpose to our lives? [00:31:31] Speaker B: Well, Joe, no, it doesn't matter. [00:31:34] Speaker A: You can do whatever you want. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Great if you want to be single, great if you want to have kids. That's a great idea. [00:31:38] Speaker A: And that's what I was going to say. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:41] Speaker A: The married verse and having kids versus the single lifestyle, traveling the world, things like that. People get really touchy about this one and go, well, how could you possibly say it? Can we agree that God has something to say about what we ought to be striving for in life. But that's, I think we can all agree on that. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Moralistic, therapeutic deism says God's fine with anything. God is good with whichever one of those routes you want to take. If you want to be a single person and just kind of go do your own thing and not really worry about getting married, having kids, God is just fine with that. If you want to get married and have a family, that God is just fine with that as well. That's kind of the false equivalency that is created under this notion. And again, as you said, the evidence of this is when dad, I still remember this because this is one of the few ones that I ever waited into on Facebook because I don't think those usually ever go well. But he made a post about how young women who actively choose to not get married and live a single lifestyle are blaspheming the word of God. And 340 comments later, it was very clear that a lot of people in the church do not subscribe to that belief. A lot of people in the church subscribe to the idea that as far as your life purpose goes, you can follow your heart, that you can pretty much do whatever you'd like to do. Sure, marriage is an option, but if you don't want to get married, no problem. Essentially denying the design and purpose the way that God set it up, as you said, what does God think that we ought to do? Doesn't mean that if you never get married, you're in sin or doesn't mean that if you can't have kids that you're in sin. But what that turned into for people is if I want to go travel Europe and live the instagram lifestyle, God's good with that. If I want to get married and have kids as the way he designed it, God's good with that, too. Those two things aren't equal. And people, again, from the evidence from that post last March, people thought those two things were completely equal and one was not better than the other. [00:33:32] Speaker A: That was last March? [00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was last March. It was wild. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Time flies. That is wild. Yeah, that one caused quite the stir. Jack, what are your thoughts on this? [00:33:40] Speaker C: I was looking up, there's a post by a preacher that went around the other day. Don't it's rude to ask married couples when they're having kids because they might have fertility issues or whatever. And I get that. I don't agree that. Don't ever say anything about it. But then they may not want kids and somebody tacked on in the comments. And stop asking single women when they're going to get married. They might not want to get married. I've just decided that's not for me. And it's like, well, that's the problem. That's why you need to be asked on this. If you're married, and we laid out the case, there's an episode on it last year. If somebody, you got an issue with that, go back and listen and leave the comment there. We'll get to it, whatever. But it all comes back to this whole every single person gets to build their life from scratch again. There's no roots, there's no obligation to anybody else. Whatever you want to do, man, let's just keep it as minimal as possible as to what God expects of you, requires of you, what God recommends for you, even just be a good person. [00:34:38] Speaker B: It'll all work out right. [00:34:39] Speaker C: Just be a good person. Or even these preachers who might say, well, you can't do this, you can't do that. Certain things are off the table. But it's a very libertarian mindset, which as a recovering libertarian, I can speak well to this. It's just essentially like that is don't make any laws, don't recommend anything. It's minimally, you just can't hurt other people. That's literally the only law. Don't take other people's stuff. Don't hurt other people. We will not stop you from doing anything else. And it sounds really good until you realize people don't have a clue. People need help. People need to be driven in a certain direction. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole too far, but that has infiltrated church leadership, where it really is. That whole look, we know everybody wants different things, and so let's just find the bare minimum that we can teach and expect from you, and we'll call. [00:35:26] Speaker A: It good, just because you already spoke to this earlier. We like the big size churches because we like to think that that is kind of the follower count, so to speak, on Instagram. Like, if we have 250 people show up to our church, we are a thriving congregation. We got a ton of ministries going. We got a lot of programs, 250 members. Now, forget the fact that 15 members do all of the work, that you can barely get anybody show up, as will mentioned on a Sunday night. Numbers are everything. And so we've already talked about the religious aspect, but it has infiltrated the church of, we're going to let people kind of make their decisions. God has a standard of what I think we should be striving for. Once again, we're not saying you're in sin if it has not worked out, if you're trying to get married and whatnot, or you're single, we're not saying you're in sin for that. We are saying, has God decided? Has he ruled or reigned into our life purpose? Is it just to follow your heart, choose your own adventure kind of thing, or is there something that he's had to say? Well, we would say that is the case. So let's go to the next one because this is an interesting one. Well, real quick for young guys. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I was just going to say I think the having kids debate is even more of a hot button issue for people, and I think this one is one that's even more clear than the marriage one. Not that the marriage one isn't clear, but I've said before, and I firmly believe it, if you are, as a married couple, choosing to not have kids for any reason other than medical or something like that, I truly do believe that's a sin issue. Like kind of the idea that kids are kind of a hindrance. We kind of just want to do our own thing. But it is presented often as that's an option that people can take and to come out and say again from the pulpit, how many times have you heard a preacher say, God wants you to have children? All you married people, you need to be having children. No, nobody says that. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Why? [00:37:18] Speaker B: Because it is presented as an option. It is presented as if you don't want to have kids, it's no problem. But again, I'm firmly on the train that if you're married, and again, it's not for a medical reason or something like that, that you're just actively choosing. Now, kids are not for me. You are actively fighting against the design that God set in place, human biology. You're actively fighting, you're contradicting the way God designed it, and so many people don't see it that way. But again, I think a lot of blame can be placed on church leadership and pulpits because we're not saying those things. We're presenting it as if. Sure, just make sure you practice heterosexuality. And that's pretty much the only, don't cheat on each other. And that's pretty much the only prescriptions that are being given from the pulpit. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Which, if this goes along with what we talked about a couple of episodes ago in stay at home wives and homemakers, that makes a lot more sense when you're having kids. Well, if we have the. Well, they can just go out and work and do whatever they're going to do. Of course, she's got a career, too. We really need to take that into consideration. [00:38:11] Speaker B: Corporate, high powered women. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Right. Then, yeah, maybe we don't have kids, right. Because she's, of course, got her life. If her life is in serving the family, if her life is taking dominion at home the same way his is taking dominion outside the home and really building something special that makes a lot more sense if we're teaching the full counsel of God. So to know if we're really looking at it from all perspectives. But this goes to the guy side. Will and I talk a lot on Jim podcast, and we've had episodes before on kind of choosing a career and what to look for and just made mention of it for young guys. And this is going to go to old guys, too, and other people. But does God have a say over the career? Is this a follow your heart? We have a lot of people that, look, there's always something. It's photography, right? Or it's baking or being a chef or whatever else where you have a lot of young men go, I'm just really into photography, and I think I can make a life out of this now, 0.2% actually do, and I'm not trying to. Look, if you're a photographer, please don't hate on this. But we have the chase your dreams, we have the follow your heart. We have things like that. We talked about the life purpose from the marriage kids point of view. What about from a career? Does God have something to say about the careers we ought to choose versus the careers we shouldn't? Other than the obvious, like if you have a career to go be either a superstar that is in Hollywood that's completely forsaken God, obviously that's not good. And to go become somebody off of the street, so to speak. Streetwalker. Yeah, obviously God's saying no to that career, but does he have anything to say about other careers? [00:39:43] Speaker C: Well, I'd even add on to that things that are going to take you away from church not only just Sunday morning, but can you even be an active member of your church if you go down this road, can you be available to your family? Now, obviously, I'm blessed to be able to work from home right now, and that's a great thing. Not everyone's going to have that. You're going to be gone a lot of the time as a dad and coming home to your wife and kids, and there might be a time, especially when you're younger, where you got to work really long hours to set yourself up, to be able to be around more as time goes by. On the other hand, if you're looking at a career where it's like, you know what, I'm never going to see my wife and kids, there's considerations taking to place here. And with all of this, again, you can't bind that. You can't bind this, can't buy that. This whole follow your heart thing is about orienting yourself toward what is best for me as a follower of Christ, what is the best way to be close to him? That's where I'm trying to get to. And those considerations come into your career. And so you mentioned the follow your heart thing, leading so many young people to go after careers that, a, were very unlikely to make them money in the first place. B, as a young man, as you're talking about, you need something that can provide for a family that might be a boring job that you don't even like that very much, maybe it is. It might not be being so many young kids these days. I'm going to be a YouTube star. Yeah, you and everybody else, right? Point yourself towards something that's productive. Again, start with God's word on this. What does he require from me? What am I going to need to be pleasing to him 15 years down the road and angle yourself toward that rather than, well, what do I think? Sounds good because, man, we get ourselves into tough situations doing that so many times. [00:41:27] Speaker B: I think a lot about this from the perspective of what am I going to teach my son? My oldest son, Jackson's almost two and a half. What am I going to teach him about what career to choose and what path to go down. And a lot of it is going to be centered around that idea of like, listen, you are going to be the sole provider for your family. Obviously I'm going to raise him under the pre intense of your wife in the future should not be working. So you need know kind of the whole like freelance. Well, I'll just kind of figure it out. I'm going to like, no, I'm going to steer him away from that. But the other thing is to Joe's point about what career to choose. Listen, there are certain careers I'm going to steer him away from. Jackson is two and has shown a propensity for sports. Loves throwing the ball, throws the ball better than some ten year old that I've seen like love sports. [00:42:10] Speaker A: Guess what? [00:42:11] Speaker B: I'm probably not going to steer him into. Even if I thought there was a chance he could be a professional athlete, which I don't, I'm not that delusional, but even if I thought there was, I'm probably not going to steer him towards that. Why? It's the same thing. Why? If my daughter shows a man she's really talented at acting, I'm not going to steer into Hollywood. It's for all those reasons. If Jack said, your life as a follower of Christ is not going to be made easier by the life of a professional athlete, not going to be made easier by the life of a Hollywood starlet, it's not that it's impossible. It's that I'm going to steer my son specifically towards a career where he can provide for his family, they're taken care, know his wife is able to stay home and homeschool, Lord Willing. And whether or not he finds fulfillment in it, whether or not he's living out his dream, that's kind of secondary, to be honest. That's kind of something that is. I'm not going to say of no importance. It's of smaller importance than the big stuff, which is, as Jack said, are you able to stay involved in your congregation? Are you able to stay very involved in your kids life? Are you able to disciple your own kids? Are you able to continue working on your marriage? All those things take time. And speaking to somebody who works a good bit right now, if your career that you choose, set aside the star athlete in the Hollywood starlet, if the career you choose is going to demand you working 90 hours, weeks and traveling all over the place where you never see your kids and wife, yeah, that's probably. Again, the Bible has set some principles with that. That's probably not a good thing to chase. [00:43:40] Speaker A: This is where I'm just going to step on my soapbox for a second. The church lacks vision because it's be good today. Make it to heaven when you die. And that's pretty much what we boiled it down to. We lack vision to go, okay, the decision I make at Jackson's, two, I got kids, five, three and one and zero. Lots of kids floating around here. The decisions that I make today will reverberate in their lives in 30 years. We have to be looking ahead at, okay, how could you do that? Let your kid follow his heart. Let him chase his dream. If his dream is going to lead him away from, well, how do we know that? We have to have vision. We have to look to the future and go, I like how you said it will. What's going to make this easiest for him in terms of following God? Yes. It's important to make that choice very easy and very simple. When you put six choices in Christianity and having a godly family and raising up lots of kids and raising up from the Lord, well, that's an option. And the other option is I could go make $6 million a year by chasing my dream as an athlete, or I could go do XYZ. I could be a surgeon. A top surgeon that works 90 hours a week and never see his family. That's one of the options, too. I'm going to take away his option. How could you do it as a father? Because I want to see my son in heaven. But you know, when that starts, he's five. That starts now with that bent. We have to have vision toward the future to actually see these decisions matter. They don't just matter today. They matter when he hits 18, 2025, 30 years old, I want him to know this is the most important thing in your life, and I will remove any roadblock out of his way, because that's what a good father does. That's what a good father does. So drives me nuts, but I would say from the life purpose perspective, does this draw me closer to God? Is God glorified in my choices? My choices as a career? My choice is a spouse. It's. The other thing is we get married because it's like, oh, I follow my heart. She's really nice, and I think she's. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Coming around on the happy. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Yeah, she makes me happy. And she said that she could see my point of view on Christianity. Of course, she's an atheist, but she kind of. No, absolutely not. What's wrong with you? I'm sorry. And what's wrong with the parents allowing their kids to do it? Don't do that. You lead your kids in a way of, like, my sons will know you will not choose a non Christian. That's just biblical. You're not going to choose a non Christian. These things matter. When do you think that training takes place? Right now. So this isn't a parenting episode, but I'm frustrated that the. Follow your heart. We kind of take this in their younger years. Oh, let them do it. And then they're five, and then they're nine. [00:46:07] Speaker B: No, we parent that way. A lot of people. [00:46:08] Speaker A: And then at 16, we go, well, hold on, time out. We got to make sure we do this. It's like, whoa, whoa. But 16 years too late to come in and now decide what you want out of their life? You have to do that at a young age and help them realize following your heart. The heart is deceptive. Going back to the jeremiah, the proverbs, the psalms. Right. The heart is deceptive. We got to get this one right. And so, again, that's my soapbox. I'll get off the soapbox, but we really need to start asking ourselves, life purpose wise, is Christ glorified? In all of my decisions, is God glorified? That's the most important thing. I want to come to the last one. I'm going to let you guys leave. [00:46:38] Speaker B: I don't think. Jack, did you get a chance to step in on this one? [00:46:41] Speaker C: No. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Do you have anything you wanted to add? [00:46:43] Speaker C: What you said there, Joe, is great because we've reduced, as I said, just minimalist. And all the church can do is evangelism. That's basically a worship on Sundays. And evangelism, and getting involved in your life like that to the level to which you are going to teach somebody, go have kids. You're going to go teach somebody, teach your boys that need to be preparing this kind of career. People get mad at us for that kind of thing. Like, that's not your business. How does this help us evangelize? I'm sorry, the episode we had on. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Hey, you probably shouldn't let your kids be dating. Preacher in the church came out and said, well, that's up to the parents and their own decision. Well, of course it is. But what we're saying is this is. [00:47:21] Speaker A: What make the right the to guidelines. [00:47:23] Speaker B: They should be taking. Yeah, these decisions they should make. [00:47:25] Speaker C: There's those memes that let people enjoy things. Like, we get this from christians. Let people follow their heart. No, if the Bible has something to say about it, we need to bring it to bear. We need to apply it. We need to say something about it. That's all we're trying to do with this podcast with focus press. And here's the other thing. Every now and then, I toot our own horn. Who else is doing that? Who else is going to tell you, think generationally about your grandkids the way that Joe just did? That's what drives me crazy, is that we have to do this should be coming from every pulpit, every corner, every outlet. And yet it's not. Because, again, let christians follow their hearts. No, let's let christians follow the Bible. [00:48:02] Speaker A: And I love how you said let people enjoy things. It's like, let me just wrap a bow on that. That was really good. Well, let people enjoy things. You know what's enjoyable? Porn. Drugs, drinking. [00:48:14] Speaker C: But that's the thing. [00:48:15] Speaker B: Read the book of ecclesiastes. [00:48:16] Speaker C: They'll look at the minimalist. Give me what can't I do? What am I not allowed to do? [00:48:21] Speaker A: Give me the list. [00:48:21] Speaker C: Not what's good to do, not what's recommended, not what's good, better, best. Our brains can't handle good, better, best. This is a good thing, but it'd be better if you did this. The best thing you could do is. No, you can't make that recommendation. That's binding things. [00:48:37] Speaker A: Let me say this real fast. Don't turn to porn or drugs or drinking. When I say they're enjoyable, I'm talking from a world perspective. They ruin your life. They're terrible. [00:48:44] Speaker B: You're just chasing after what's enjoyable. Those things are at the top. [00:48:47] Speaker C: There's a reason people go to, right? [00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Correct. Don't take that sound bite and go, Joe says porn's okay. No, that's not what I'm saying. So I just want to get that out there, because, look, that would not be the first time that has taken place on one of our podcasts, believe that or not. So good. Better. Baz, I think that's a great point. But as we bring it into the last point, boy, do we see this. We've already talked about getting married, kind of the beginning. Okay. What about how God rules over this follow your heart mentality? As we bring it into the home, we bring it into marriage, we bring it into relationships. I got to say, I think the following. Your heart has probably. I mean, 100% of the divorces, really, but that's got to be up there in terms of, well, they just don't make me happy anymore. They have never really treated me the way that I think I deserve to be treated. And so I'm going to follow my heart on this one, and I'm going to divorce. And they don't think about the ramifications for the kids. They don't think about the ramifications for their kids. The grandkids of the kids that have struggled with divorce, because this is a generational thing that passes down. They don't think about anything other than themselves because it's follow your heart. It is. Let me work this out with God in my own way. And interestingly, I'm not making a comment on MDR right now fully, but this idea, following your heart is the same reason why people get divorced, because, oh, I just didn't get along with my spouse. I know I can't get remarried. They're 35 I know I can't get remarried for life. It's like, yeah, you're going to stay single for the rest of your life. By 38, they have restudied the scriptures and are perfectly fine to get remarried because, well, they're following their heart. And somehow scripture always seems to twist in their favor, which is just funny. [00:50:17] Speaker B: The other thing I was going to say is people can use the follow their heart thing, as twisted as it sounds, to justify adultery. Maybe their wife was treating them poorly or something. It's like, well, my heart led me to this person and yeah, I know it was wrong. It's not just divorces, they're justified adultery as well in many cases, but yeah, no, this is one that I really do think. We talk about the Disney advice and the way we parent people to follow their way people parent their kids to follow their heart. We need a re emergence of using your brain far more than we use our heart, using logic and using common sense as opposed to following your heart. I'm being dead serious. That's the way I plan to parent most of the way I plan to raise my kids of like, less follow your heart, more follow your brain. Use your head on this. Your heart tells you, yeah, I really am more into this other person. My wife makes me miserable, so my heart tells me to divorce this person. [00:51:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:11] Speaker B: What does your brain tell you about what that's going to do to your kids? What does your brain tell you about the trauma that's going to come from that? Because you leave your spouse and the way your family is going to be. [00:51:22] Speaker A: Altered or about the value made before God, right. [00:51:26] Speaker B: At some point, blindfold over your brain and just follow your heart. Yeah, sure. It's going to lead you to divorce and commit adultery and all these things. Use your brain for a second again. I think about that with my child. What is he going to think when your dad found somebody else that he wanted to go live? No, we've got to get back to using our brain more, and it applies to all of these things. But Jack, you've got on here, the heart doesn't want difficult or painful commitment and it doesn't. That's what we have to use our brain for. That's what we have to use our head to tell us. No, this is what's more important. As Joe said, the vow we made, this is worth striving for. Your heart's not going to tell you that. Your brain is going to tell you that. And you have to start listening to your brain and stop listening to your heart. Joe has my soapbox moment. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:52:08] Speaker C: I think you both have mentioned the disneyfication of our brains and of our hearts. And there's a term that comes into this that I don't know if it was invented in Disney movie where it comes from, fall in love. It is so destructive. Oh, I've fallen out of love with you. Don't care. As Joe said, you made a vow. Doesn't matter. [00:52:26] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:52:27] Speaker C: That's tough. Figure out a way to fall back in love because you're stuck. You're here, you signed up. And christians, this is rampant out in the world, but even christians of kind of thinking they have a past to do something. And one of the other things that you'll see that's very unique is people that their circumstances are different. They know what it says. They know that it's wrong. They know that. But I'm different. Well, why are you different? Well, because my heart tells me, because I'm the one affected by it. Because mentally, as you're saying, their brains know it on a certain level, but their emotions feel it differently. So I'm going to go with the emotions. No, I mean, will is exactly right. Use your brain on this. Fall in love. Don't get that term out of your vocabulary. In your marriage, you choose to love. You make the choice every single day to keep on loving, because falling in love, the whole point of that is it's passive. It's not something you chose. It's something that happened to you, and so it can be taken away from you. And what are you going to do? [00:53:27] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I could go off against, we've soapboxed to death on this one, but I could definitely go off on this one specifically. Everybody's looking for a good excuse. That's advice my dad gave me a long time ago. Everybody's looking for a good excuse. And I think this is where you see it probably the most out of any place. I think you see it here. Will, you reference, you know, where infidelity takes place and the way they get around is my spouse is abusive. Jack, you had a great article recently on using those terms, trauma, toxic, things like that. Using those terms and kind of weaponizing them and using them to justifying your. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Own behavior through those things. [00:54:07] Speaker A: Correct. And I see abuse as one of those. There is legitimate abuse. I'm a therapist. I work with that a lot. And then there's my spouse is controlling, and what the controlling is, is they don't want me to work in a certain place. They don't want me to text. I've had clients tell me my spouse is very controlling because they got really jealous when I was texting a male coworker, and we weren't even talking about anything, and they wanted to shut that down. And that's so controlling. Like, is it? I'm not disagreeing with that. I don't think you should. There's all that discussion. But this is where the follow your heart goes way off the rails because so much is affected. We are talking, generationally talking. There's so many people that have been given the advice. You get on Reddit threads, you get on Facebook, you get on these mommy groups or whatever where the woman's complaining about the husband and everything else. And Alyssa was just reading me one the other day. It's devastating. A woman who was kind of, follow your heart and everybody else is like, hey, you need to follow your heart. And she was telling this story of how she went from being in a happy marriage to she got a promotion, was making more than her husband, and then got it in her mind that her husband was just terrible. He stinks. I don't want to be married to him anymore. And he tried and tried and tried, tried to get into therapy, buying her gifts, really trying to help, took the kids, doing everything else that he could to really be there for her. And she's like, no, I don't care. I'm going to be happy with without you. And the post was devastating because at the end, she's like, I have so messed up my life. I wish I would have never done that. And it took me going to therapy and realizing I was the problem, not him. He was a great guy. This is follow your heart. When we give people that option of like, well, hey, do what is right for you. That was right for her in the time, and it was horrible for everybody else. And now she tried to get back with him and was like, she didn't usually take me back. And he was basically like, I don't know that I can trust you again. You cheated on me. You went out of the way to hurt me. This is the advice. This is the problem. Why we're talking about it is real. There are high stakes here. This is real life. This actually affects people on a day to day level. Their kids will never be right again because of the divorce and because the way she treated him and bouncing back and forth between mom and dad's house. People have no concept of how much marriage and relationships are devastated by follow your heart. It is so sad. Read ephesians five. Read first Peter three get the roles right, understand what we're supposed to do for one another, and don't follow your heart, follow God. That's the biggest thing. So I've been leading the outline here, fellas. We're going to get into the last section. Might as well just take it. I asked the question earlier. I think it is a different question about following your heart versus the conscience. But Jack, you have a question on here that I think is interesting. How can you know you aren't following your heart? It's easy to find biblical backing for what your heart wants to do. Exactly as I said, the twisted verses taking out of context to figure out how I can get remarried as a 38 year old when I divorced my spouse for we just didn't get along. A lot of twisting of scriptures in there. How do we know that we're not following our heart? Or how do we know if we are following our heart and that it's leading us in the wrong direction? [00:57:02] Speaker B: Jack, I was going to let you go first since a lot of this is the stuff you put on, and then I'll kind of give my closing thoughts after that. [00:57:08] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. Obviously it's always got to start with prayer. I mean, if you are genuinely submitting your heart to God and saying, I'm going to open your word, I'm going to listen to other christians, I want to be right with you. As I said, psalm 37 four, that he'll delight yourself in the Lord and he'll give you the desires of your heart. You got Jeremiah 20 913 that you'll search me and find me when you seek for me with all your heart. And Jesus in Matthew saying, ask, seek and knock whoever you're going to get what you're after. And so you've got to start there with a trust that man. If I really want my heart to be right with God, and I'm really searching the scriptures for it in prayer, saying, show me the way, show me what I need to know, what I need to do, you'll find it is the faith you have to have going into it. [00:57:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's really good. Another thing you've got on here that I agree with is kind of notice what you get a little bit more offended by when it comes to teachings from scripture. Notice your sensitivity to certain teachings. Maybe you as a woman listening, kind of get your feathers ruffled anytime feminism gets brought up or anytime what your role should be in the home gets brought up. Maybe that's in an area that you're following your heart. Maybe on the other side of the coin, if you're a husband and you kind of get a little twitchy, a little irritated every time somebody starts talking about the role that you had to disciple your kids and how you need to spend a little less time in the office and a little less time doing on the golf course or whatever, and actually spend some time raising your kids, man, if that irritates you a little bit, maybe that's because you've been following your heart in that area. Of course, it applies to all kind of things. Being slow to anger, gossiping, anything that the scripture has things to say about. If you notice yourself getting a little sensitive about that, a little bothered or offended might be an indication that you have been following your heart in that area. And so that would be definitely something that I would say as well. And a lot of that comes down to get in scripture more, spend more time studying God's word. And we always say, well, what should I do? We'll pray and study. Not always. There's other things that we need to be doing as well. But I think that you'll be able to see more clearly what does your heart want you to do? As opposed to what does God want you to do the more time you're in God's word? If you're not in God's word, well, you're not really going to know what God wants you to do, other than just what we started with. Just be a general, good person. Moralistic, therapeutic deism. If you're one of those people that never opened your Bible, that's all you're going to know, is just be a good person and try not to kill anybody. And that's about it. No, the more time you spend in God's word, the more clearly you see all the principled things that we've been talking about, the stuff in the proverbs, the stuff in the psalms, you see that so more clearly. So that would be the other thing that I would say is just spend more time in God's word, because you'll get to see more clearly what does God want, rather than what does your heart want. [00:59:55] Speaker A: And I would say, read more books. Some of the best stuff I get is, whoa, this guy, the way he laid out scripture, I would have never pulled that out on my own. But I read a book and it convicts you. You go, wow, you got to be. [01:00:07] Speaker C: Careful with that, though, in prayer, because, man, how many women read that? Like, girl, wash your face, which is just totally, follow your heart. Follow your heart. Follow your, like, so be very careful. I mean, good books or books where you're using your discernment to say, this doesn't match up with what God's telling. [01:00:22] Speaker A: Me, which goes to Will's point about being in scripture. And it also goes to the last point, I'd say, which is have wise know somebody that can give sage advice, somebody that maybe has read the book before. If you're going to a book or whatever, that you can ask some questions of somebody that is, that you say, man, I'm thinking about doing this, or my spouse is really treating me poorly. How do I handle the situation? That's invaluable. You have to have mentors. This is why Titus two talks about older teaching the younger. And be open for criticism. Be open to that. To your point, will and that idea of sensitivity, be willing to say, maybe I needed to hear that. Even if I disagree with it. I've been told things, I've been criticized on things I didn't think were legit. I'm still open for business here. I'm still open for you to come and to say something to me that even if I don't agree with it, I will take it and I'll say, thank you for that advice. And then I can talk with my wife about it, talk with my parents about it, talk with bested advisor, so to speak. So that's what I would say as well in knowing your heart is if you have a big decision to make, if you're a young man thinking of a career, talk to somebody. Hopefully your father is that person. If not, go find somebody else. Talk to somebody older that has been through it, that can give really good advice. If you have a guy at church whose life is a complete wreck, he's been married three times, it's not like he can't be saved. Maybe don't go to him for marriage advice. Go to somebody else. And maybe that's mean to say, I don't know, maybe he's got great marriage advice. Go to somebody that you trust that you know is going to give you solid advice, and it's going to shoot straight with you and look you right in the eye and say, you're in sin. You really, really need that. So that's all. Yeah. [01:01:50] Speaker B: One last thing I'll say, and I can either hand it to jack to wrap around myself, because this is preaching to me. Stay out of the culture, media pop stuff as much as possible. I mean, we pretty much cut ourselves off from know, not trying to say you can't watch Disney, although I don't think anybody should. You know what saying? Like, essentially this stuff is in our minds for a reason. It's because the culture has infiltrated us and it's seeped in through music, through movies. Again, I referenced the Nicholas spark stuff. There's all kinds of things. The books you read, maybe, or again, the movies, the shows you watch. I enjoy a good tv show entertainment as much as the next person, but that is one thing I would say as far as the flip side of getting God's word more. Maybe spend a little bit less time watching the Disney movies. Maybe spend a little bit less time watching the. Again, this. Oh, you can't bind that. You're right, I can't. But the less time we spend with our mind filled with follow your heart, follow your heart. Do what you want, do what you want, do what you want. Probably the better and the more clear. Again, we're going to see what the path we should walk down is. So that would be the last thing I would say. Jack, do you have anything else you want to wrap us with? [01:02:52] Speaker C: No. [01:02:52] Speaker B: If not, then kudos to Jack for a great outline. And I think this is an episode that probably a lot of people need to hear might be a little bit hard to tangibly grasp. What is it we're talking about? Hopefully we made it pretty clear, as always, we're looking for any kind of comments, feedback that you have, specifically. If you're a focus plus subscriber, leave a comment on this video and we will address it in the deep end if you have questions or anything like that. But for those of you who, again, aren't focus plus subscribers, let us know on Facebook, YouTube, what did you think about kind of these terms and how they've infiltrated all these areas that we looked at? We're always open for feedback and we enjoy seeing what you guys think about the episode. So with that, we are going to wrap right there. We will be back for all of our focus plus subscribers on Friday for a deep end episode. And for all those who are not, we'll be back next Monday for another great episode. We very much appreciate you listening to the think deeper podcast. We'll be back next week. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Our channel.