The Age of Accountability

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to the Think deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. It's Jack Wilkee with you once again with Will Harab and Joe Wilkey. And just a short plug this week, focus plus. We have Dr. Brad Harab's new video series, brains and brew. Obviously he's the coffee shop guy, but he was also the neurosurgeon. And so brains and brew it is be talking apologetics and really anything else he wants to q a whatever it might be. Short videos every week. And so we've got Dr. Brad putting out content, obviously I've got articles going up, focus plus, everything we tell you about every week, revelation, deep end, all the cool stuff up there. It's a great place to hang out. And so check out plus or you can just look us up on Patreon, focus plus. And we're going to make the first couple of videos Brad does free. And so you don't have to be a member, don't have to be paying subscriber to get a hold of those, but you should anyway. So that's the plug we're going to give. And now this week we're talking baptism. In fact, this was a listener question, kind of sparked this idea. So I'm going to turn it over to Will, who's driving the ship today. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah, shout out. I don't even remember who it was that submitted the question, but it's a very good one. We're talking about the age of accountability. Very interesting. It's always been a fascinating discussion for me and I'm really looking forward to the territory that we're going to cover with this episode. A lot of ground to cover here. Obviously, when we're talking about the age of accountability, we're essentially talking about the age at which we would deem this person if they died and were outside of Christ, they would go to hell. Essentially, they are accountable for their actions at this age. The problem is, as we know, the Bible does not give a specific age for that. In fact, age of accountability is not even a scriptural term. You won't really find that anywhere in scripture. And yet, there's a lot of clues that would lead us to believe that there is a at some point in a young person's life, they do become accountable for their own actions. We already had an episode two or so months ago now on Calvinism, how we don't subscribe to original sin, that young infants, toddlers, that my two year old, for instance, is guilty of sin, is accountable to God for sin. We did establish, or at least I came out and said, I do believe that my two year old was born with a sinful nature, but that he's not going to be accountable to God for his sins at age two years old. But that is the first place that we have to start in this discussion. Again, we're going to cover a lot of ground. We're going to talk about infant baptism. Actually, we've covered it briefly before, but essentially go a little bit deeper here. Why do people do it? What is the alleged purpose behind it? We're going to talk about, is there a hard set age for the age of accountability? Is it at this age, this person is now accountable? And then if it's not a specific age, what age should we baptize? This is the part of the discussion I'm looking forward to of are we baptizing too young? Are we baptizing too old? A lot of good stuff coming, so I don't want to spoil the whole episode. We got one other area we're going to cover at the end, and that is re baptism that I think will again make an excellent discussion. So stick around for that. But for now, guys, Joe, I guess I'll turn it over to you first. The first step in this discussion is that we have to come to the table agreeing on one thing, and that is that babies, infants, young children are innocent in the eyes of God. If we disagree on that, then again, we can't really have an age of accountability discussion because the person that disagrees with that would say, no, they are accountable to God basically as soon as they're born. So obviously, all of us agree that babies, infants, and young children are innocent in the eyes of God. But how do we get to that from scripture? Joe, I'll hand it over to you to kind of kick us off in this section. [00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah, so the first one we'd go to is Jeremiah 19 four, because they have forsaken me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known. And because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of bail to burn their sons and the fires, burnt offerings of Baal. We're going to pause right there because verse four says that the blood of the innocent, this is not the only place in scripture that it talks about that. But this concept is very clear here that what does that represent? What does that mean, that there's blood of the innocent? It means at some point you're talking about child sacrifice, you're talking about kids that are innocent. Well, if this has come through, and again, this isn't a Calvinism episode, I'm sure they have an answer to that. That's pretty tough to get around. There is blood of the innocent, and it's not those that have been baptized or anything else. They didn't do kid baptism back then, infant baptism. And so Jeremiah 19 four seems to lay out that, again, there are kids who are innocent, specifically in passing through the fire for bail and such as it's talking about in this context. So I think that's a good place to start the discussion. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't really have anything to add there. You want to go on to the next verse? [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Jack, go ahead and take romans seven. I'll take Isaiah seven. [00:05:03] Speaker A: All right. Romans seven, verse nine, where Paul is talking about kind of his inner desires and the wrestle there. He says, I was once alive apart from the law. But when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died. And this commandment, which was a result in life, proved to result in death for me, for sin. Taking opportunity through the commandment deceived me and through it killed me. We're keying in on that phrase there that I was alive apart from the law. You'll hear those that believe in original sin say that the total depravity that we're dead all the way through, that we only can come to life when God calls us where he's saying, there was a time I was alive, and then essentially, once I understood what I was doing, once the commandment came, then now I'm guilty of it. [00:05:49] Speaker B: I was just going to point out, because in Romans two, Paul had already established that even the Gentiles, without having a written law, had what they had, like the law of their conscience, essentially, like the law was still written on their heart in such a way. And so he said that to say in Romans two that they can't be found guiltless either. And so if there in Romans seven, Paul was not talking about the concept of a gentile, basically not having the law, then what is he referring to? It would seem to indicate he's referring to the time in which the law did not really apply to him. Why? Because he wasn't accountable yet. The last place that we're going to go is Isaiah, chapter seven. And I'll be honest, I was actually talking to Joe before we got on to record. I had not come across this before. I had not come across this section of scripture, especially in the light of this discussion. But Isaiah, chapter seven. I'm going to start reading verse 14 clearly here. Messianic prophecy. Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, curds and honey. He shall eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. Verse 16 is key. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Very interesting there, guys. What do we make of that verse, especially in the light of this discussion? Specifically, verse 16, where it's talking about the child. Jesus shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good. But implying that there was a time before that. What are your thoughts on that verse? [00:07:19] Speaker C: That's a very interesting verse, because that branches off into the discussion I don't think we'll have tonight based on was Jesus as a three year old hitting his siblings, things like that, which we can't possibly. It's. It's a. It's a fun kind of throw around question, so sparks that discussion, which, again, we won't get into. Maybe we can prove it. Yeah, there you go. But what that does prove exactly to your point is even with Jesus Christ himself, there's a time before the law kind of convicts, before he understands what is wrong. And you see this with kids where it's like they do things and they don't necessarily get it, they don't grasp it because they aren't there yet. And I think this verse, which, like you said, I mean, I've read through Isaiah before, so I know I've run across it, but it never really clicked with me in this context of. Wait a minute. That's very interesting, that even Jesus himself had a time period, seemingly. Jack, I mean, what do you make of this? [00:08:13] Speaker A: I want to be careful not to assume that it also applies to Jesus. Obviously, there is the directly messianic one here, but you'll often hear it taught as a dual fulfillment prophecy. That virgin has a couple of different meanings. And obviously the New Testament does take this as applying to Jesus. And so Jesus is in there somewhere, but it's entirely possible one verse of it was about him and the other ones weren't, that it was about the other child. That was kind of being prophesied more in the short term, if that's how you interpret this section here. And so just throwing that out as a possibility, would you say that that. [00:08:46] Speaker B: Principle, though, still applies as far as in a general sense, that there's a time where young kids do not know. They don't know to choose the good and refuse the evil. Do you think that's a good place to go to prove that? [00:08:57] Speaker A: This is, to me, just another iteration of what we read there in romans seven of like, there's a time where you just don't know. There's a time where you're alive before the commandment comes. [00:09:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So, guys, as I was preparing this, and I think all of those, again, I would be interested to hear somebody who disagrees with us on this, give an answer for those three verses. But I was curious, and actually, this thought came to me about Matthew, chapter 18, verse six, that I think everybody knows. Matthew 18, verse six. Jesus speaking, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea. In context there, what would the little ones be? He seems to be talking about children there, because that's the start. Matthew 18. He's talking about, lest you are converted, become as little children, you by no means into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself as his little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Verse five. Whoever receives one little child like this in my name receives me. And then immediately into verse six, he's talking about, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin. Again, I guess this would be a devil's advocate position here. I'm just kind of throwing this out there, kind of like a bomb dropping here. But he seems there to be implying that the little one can sin. And we just got done talking about how we don't believe necessarily that kids can. And so, guys, let's say I was a skeptic of what we believe, and that is that kids, young children, babies, et cetera, are not accountable to God. But I was a skeptic of that, and I brought to you this verse, Matthew 18, verse six. What would your retort be? [00:10:37] Speaker A: I think you could just take it as they grow, as they grow into the faith, as they grow older, those that deny them, those that mislead them in their teaching, guide them in the wrong direction, I think is almost the way you'd have to read it if you're going to take it this way. I think, Joe, I think actually it. [00:10:58] Speaker C: Kind of proves the point of the innocence of the children coming up into that, of like they are innocent. And if you're the one that takes their innocence, which we do, see this, as they grow to Jack's point, as they grow, if you're the one who takes their innocence, like, hey, better to have a millstone hung around your neck in the fact that they will, you're pushing them. You're compelling them to sin, specifically as they grow. Like, they start out innocent and then they grow up into mean. That's how I would take it. And more to Jack's point of it, growing will, do you have thoughts on how you might explain that? [00:11:32] Speaker B: No. No. I like that point about it does kind of establish the point of proving that the kids are innocent, because you do think about the sexual sins, heaven forbid, that are performed on younger kids and stuff like that, and how truly awful that is. In a way, as you said, joe, the phrase you use, taking their innocence away, I'd say it's hard to know if that's exactly what Jesus was referring to here, but I think that certainly applies. Apply it to the transgender movement, right, where they're chopping off body parts of eight year olds at this point. I think this verse could very easily apply to that. So, yeah, some interesting scriptures to start the episode. We wanted to kind of give the full picture of why we believe that infants and babies and young children aren't in the eyes of God. And this is one of those things. Before I hand it off to Jack to get us into the infant baptism portion of this, I just wanted to say, let's say you listen to those scriptures and maybe you're a tad unconvinced. Maybe you're still skeptical. I appeal to common sense a lot, especially in this discussion. We brought this up, I think, in the Calvinism episode. If you disagree with this, then where are you condemning all the aborted babies to? They're accountable before God. They're under your pretense, right. And so you would essentially be condemning them to hell. Same thing with, again, tragically, a two year old dies of cancer or something like that. You don't want to ever just boil everything down to emotional arguments or common sense or anything like that. But as you go throughout God's word and you read about the grace and the mercy of God, it just doesn't add up that if a two year old dies, or again, the worst example, an aborted baby, that their judgment is sealed essentially. Again, it makes more sense to say, no, they don't know right and wrong there. There's an accountability that is not quite there yet that will come later in life. So I just wanted to bring that up about again. I mean, just kind of use your brain with this. Use common sense about this. Do you guys have any additional thoughts on that? Before we get to infant baptism? [00:13:33] Speaker C: I would say it's important to start here, to start this discussion about specifically the age of accountability, because it is important to say we are innocent at one point. And that's the entire point of this, us having this discussion. Because you may say, yeah, we get this, we know kids are innocent. It's really important for us to establish for your point. Well, there are those out there that don't believe that, but also to say, okay, you are innocent. At what point do you transition out of innocence? We're not there yet. We're going to discuss info baptism. But that's why it's important to have this discussion at the beginning to establish the innocence. When do you lose that? When do you need to get baptized? The whole thing actually does surround the innocence discussion to this point, though, Jack, this is where a lot of people will say, okay, this is why we provide infant baptism. There are actually two reasons, I would say, and I want you to kind of get us into both and the distinctions and such because, yeah, a lot of Presbyterians, they baptize, obviously the Catholics baptize infants, Lutherans baptize infants. This is a pretty big deal in evangelicalism. Obviously Catholics aren't part of that, but evangelicalism in certain, I don't know, I think there's some reform that do it, things like that. So get us into infant baptism. It's an interesting and kind of tricky discussion in some ways because we can write it off as church Christ go. Well, that's ridiculous. Of course they can't call on Christ for the salvation, right? They can't repent of their sins. And so this is ridiculous. They do have reasons. I wonder if you could explain those. [00:14:58] Speaker A: Right. So there are those that believe much like we do. The baptism is for the forgiveness of sins on some level, but they also believe in original sin, unlike us. Well, if that's the case, you better get a baby to the baptistry pretty quickly. You'll see that Catholics, Lutherans, and when we say baptism, they don't dunk them like we do. They don't immerse as the literal definition of the word means. They'll pour water over their head, they'll sprinkle on whatever else. I think the orthodox, or some orthodox actually do dunk the baby, which is a pretty weird thing to see. I've seen video of it. Strange. But anyway, those that believe, it's very violent. Yeah, it is. It's pretty scary to watch but that's what they do. And so those that believe it's forgiveness of sins go ahead and do it right away to get the original sin washed away. But then the reformed view is that the babies of believers are saved because of God's covenantal thing in the same way that Abraham's son Isaac would be saved. And so to them, it's essentially the same thing as circumcision. You're the child of a believer. You receive this sign of what believing families do, what used to be circumcision in the old covenant, this new covenant and its baptism, and so that's why they do it. [00:16:17] Speaker B: So just to clarify, those who do it that way do not believe in original sin, right? They do believe in original. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah, they believe in original sin, but they're not baptizing to wash away original sin. Got you. They believe that it's through faith that original sin is washed away. And I guess that you're under the covering of your parents faith. And as you grow, kind of essentially that your little kids are Christians, they're going to have to grow into their own faith and understand it better and confess it on their own later on. But they're Christians from the start because their parents are Christians. [00:16:48] Speaker C: What if they don't, like, if they grow up and they don't confess it, what do they do with the covenant aspect of that? Because we know people do, and I know a lot of these are Calvinists in the fact they don't believe you can fall from grace, that you can fall. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Child wasn't predestined. [00:17:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's John Piper. I don't know that he's into baptism, but his son Abraham is like an atheist now. So is he part of that covenant? Well, I'd say clearly not. He didn't. But according to, like, how does that work? [00:17:22] Speaker A: Well, essentially you assume they are until they prove they're not. So that's why you baptize them. You're going to just assume and you're going to take it on faith that this child is in the covenant, they're chosen by God. And if later on you find that they're not. I don't want this to devolve into another Calvinism episode. But this is why it's so depressing. [00:17:40] Speaker C: Right? But I'd say we come to the same timeline, basically, of there will come a time where you have to choose the faith for yourself and you will decide whether you're a legit or not. We believe the same thing. It's just that's when we baptize, is the faith legit for yourself? And they would say, well, if you fell away, then you weren't, and if you remained, I guess. But we both have on the timeline the same point of, is this legit? [00:18:03] Speaker A: I mean, I'll give them this. [00:18:05] Speaker C: That. [00:18:05] Speaker A: It's hard to know that. Okay. I've got my four, five year. My five year old little girl loves church, loves singing about Jesus, loves reading the Bible and all that. And she's kind of grappling with, what is a Christian? When you talk about the term? Well, it's people who are baptizing. They take the Lord's supper on Sunday. People that are following Jesus. Well, I'm following Jesus. To them, they're like, yes, amen. You are. You're a Christian. And to us, it's, you know, in your childlike way. Yes. But eventually. And so I think we can explain it just fine. But I also understand why they get to where they do with their age of accountability, just more of age of understanding where with us, you don't have sin, you're not accountable for the things you're doing wrong because you don't understand. It's the differences of how you get there. [00:18:54] Speaker C: What I would love to know is, do they have more retention than we do? Because we do take a very individualistic mindset to it, of. They're passing. Exactly. They pass on a family covenant of like, we just expect you to be a Christian. Yes, you are a Christian, Gloria. That's right. You had five years. Like that gets it almost pumps it straight into their. [00:19:14] Speaker B: It's almost like, well, we'll find out when you get there. [00:19:17] Speaker C: That's exactly it. Well, not yet, exactly. Look, I'm not pushing even baptism here. I'm not saying that's great, but there is an element to that, to the covenant thinking. Covenantal thinking that I do appreciate. The family thinking of like this is expected to be passed down for generations. So, no, we're not pushing infant baptism, but there are some interesting points about that. [00:19:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a valuable point, especially. It would probably do us well in the church to start thinking in a more covenantal at least mindset. Obviously not with the infant baptism part, but of like the, hey, we're a family. We're passing this faith on as a family to the next generation. Again, we don't think like that in the church of Christ, as we should. But let's get to this question. So obviously, we are all on the same page that babies, infants and young children are not accountable to God for their actions. So at what point do they become accountable? This is where we're going to get into the big discussion. What age should we be baptizing? So the first thing we have to ask is, is the age of accountability a hard set, specific age? Now, initially, a lot of people's knee jerk reactions say no. There are people that I have talked to that do believe it is a hard set age that once you hit a certain number, you are then accountable to God for their actions. And there's kind of several biblical options presented. Guys, I don't know if you want me to run, I'll run through the first one and then you all can give the case for the other two. I think this first one is probably the weakest one out of them or out of the ones that we're going to go over. But there are some that argued at the age of 21 that's mainly only gotten from one place, and that's numbers 14, verse 29. And I'll back it up just to get some context. Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron saying, how long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against me? Obviously, talking about the Israelites, I've heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against me. Say to them, as I live, says the Lord, just as you have spoken in my hearing, so I will do to you the carcasses of you who have complained against me shall fall in the wilderness. All of you who were numbered according to your entire number, from 20 years old and above, so they would have that age at 2021 or so of. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Everybody up to then wasn't accountable. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Everybody up to them is not accountable, is how the argument is presented. I've got thoughts on that, guys. I don't know if you want to run through the other ones or if we want to go ahead and attack this first. To me, I don't know. I see that as a bit of a stretch in this context when it's talking about those who were guilty of rebelling, specifically against God, those who were complaining. Again, you have to make the jump to say that means 18 and 19 year olds cannot be guilty of sin. And I just think that's inconsistent with the rest of scripture. But any thoughts on that? And if not, you all can go ahead and move us into the other two ages that people throw out there. As far as hard set, specific ages of accountability. [00:22:05] Speaker C: I mean, I'm just thinking about it here, but is he not really prepping, basically, the killing off of the 40 years in the wilderness, the killing off of that generation and prepping the next generation. I think there's more at it than, hey, you're not accountable for that. It's like this is prepping the younger generation to get ready. Imagine being 18 and getting to watch all of these people get put to death because of this, because of the rebellion. Right. And the grumbling and everything else. It would have just been like, burned in your memory. So do I think we can take this for baptism? No, I think there's other elements at this. The other one that people would go to is 13, which is more historical, but it's kind of the jewish custom for when a young man is viewed as an adult, he's viewed as a. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Man at age 13. Yeah, right. [00:22:49] Speaker C: The rite of passage. You'll hear bar mitzvahs, things like that. So 13 is a big deal in that culture to say you are a man at this point forward. So some people might make the case that, okay, if you're going to be a man, this is the time to get baptized at 13 is kind of that age that we really need to start pushing baptism. What are your guys'thoughts on that? Using the historical cultural approach? [00:23:13] Speaker A: I mean, that's cultural. That's great that that's their culture. But I mean, culture has changed. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Not much Bible in there. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you'd look at this extended adolescence thing of like people, nobody looks at a 13 year old and thinks that's a man. And so they might still have a ceremony where they say that you are. But I mean, come on. [00:23:31] Speaker B: That's what I'd say. I think my response to this is going to come out or come out when we actually discuss kind of the ultimate question. That is, what do we think as far as the age? So I will hold my thoughts there. Jack, do you want to get into the last one? [00:23:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker A: So obviously Jesus in the temple at age twelve, Luke two, we read he's growing in wisdom and stature and favor with God and men, asking questions and discussing the word with the teachers there. And so on the one hand, the first thing that comes to mind is, well, that's Jesus. And that was very much anomaly even in his time. And the other thing is that was a great story from his life or, you know, account of something that happened to him, but doesn't seem to be prescribing any kind of doctrine whatsoever. I don't know if you guys had anything to add on top of that. [00:24:18] Speaker C: I think it goes back to the cultural discussion. Some people say, well, you wouldn't believe what they had twelve year olds do. John Quincy Adams was an ambassador over in France or whatever at 1214 years old. Like these kids could do. Yes. So this gets us into that cultural discussion you're talking about. Does culture come into play? We're kind of coming to, is there a specific age? What are our answers to this? [00:24:42] Speaker A: Even in that it was. It was shocking that Jesus was doing what he was doing. And so I don't think that we would take that as normative at all. [00:24:50] Speaker C: I wouldn't either. I really do think. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:56] Speaker A: There's a couple of ideological ones that I hear from time to time. And this will come into our maturity one a little bit, but it kind of aligns with ages a little bit with the 13, a little bit with the 21 is some people say marriage, marriage, baptism and marriage are the two biggest commitments you'll make. If you're not ready for marriage, you're not ready for baptism. I don't think. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Wait, hold on. So you're saying the measuring stick is not when they get married, it's just, are they ready for marriage? [00:25:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Okay. [00:25:25] Speaker A: And really more than that being like a specific number, which, I mean, would be 18, 1920 somewhere in that it's kind of generically, hey, in our society, nobody thinks a twelve year old is ready to get married, so why should they get baptized? Is usually how that's applied. So I'll throw that one out there. And there's one other one. If you guys want to take that one first. [00:25:42] Speaker C: Throw out the other one. Throw out the other one. I think we'll take both. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Okay. The other one. Is that the strongest temptation, basically, as far as, like, the law coming alive and all that? You haven't really known temptation until you've known sexual temptation. [00:25:55] Speaker C: Will and I were talking about this. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I brought this up in the car on the drive here. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Okay. It's kind of like, what are you just supposed to ask kids, like, hey, have you noticed something about the opposite sex? How far along are you in this? Kind of like, okay, well, then I guess you're ready to get baptized. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Well, I think I would say puberty would be at least one indicator. But then also this is where, to me, the role of the parents is huge. And I actually don't have that anywhere on our outline. That is kind of, what do we think the role of the parents is in this? So we need to hit that at some point. But that is where I feel like, obviously parents should be the ones that introduce their children to the world of what sex is. We don't want them hearing that from their friends or from the Internet as we've discussed before. And so if you as a parent have control over that, that means you as parents also do have a knowledge of when they at least are aware of it. Now Jack, to your point as far as sexual temptation goes, I guess that is a bit different than just okay, well they know what sex is and they know that could be a temptation versus when they're actually tempted with it. So that argument I guess would be more so when they do get around females more in a romantic setting depending on again what age you let your kids date, 16, 1718. So yeah, that's an interesting thought but I did bring that up to Joe and I'm going to kind of save my personal take for this. I guess we're going to do that at the end here. But yeah, I see that as legitimate at least that, hey, if a kid doesn't know what lust is, if a kid doesn't know what the, especially if it's a guy, one of the toughest temptations he'll ever have to deal with and he's getting baptized before that. Again, I'm kind of spoiling my take here but I don't think that's smart. [00:27:37] Speaker C: I absolutely see the wisdom of that where that falls apart. I guess mine's a little skewed just because this is what I work in. I've worked with kids that have been into porn at eight years old that they are facing sexual temptation 8910 years old. I've worked with it. [00:27:50] Speaker B: I guess to Jack then they would be accountable at eight, right. So it's less of an age and more of a moment in time if. [00:27:57] Speaker C: That was the case. That's what I'm saying is would you baptize an eight year old? Not a chance. Is he aware of sexual sin and is kind of aware of like, okay, this really isn't good. Yes, but do I think he's ready for baptism at eight? No, but yes, I realize there's nominally we don't want to just take all the exceptions and whatnot but I would say by and large that's probably a good scale of until you've really faced, and I would say for females and I was talking to will about this, I really feel like gossip and the caddiness of being around another girl. That sounds really mean for me to say, but girls, a lot of girls aren't going to struggle with pornography. That's going to be a main temptation for a guy growing up is can you abstain from this sin for a girl, it may not be that, but what sins can they abstain from? Because otherwise a girl will never really know. It's like, well, I don't show a porn. So what it would be, I think the main temptation of your day, of your age, you have to be able to wrestle with and understand good versus evil. Going back to the verses we talked about, going back to the marriage one, I think that's a very interesting point. If it was getting married. Yeah, no, I wouldn't be okay with that. At the same time, there is wisdom in that is, can you make this decision where this falls apart? And it's going to kind of get us, I suppose, into this next one. Where that falls apart is I really don't want my son getting baptized at 19 and getting married at 20 and having a one year old Christian heading into marriage family too. To spiritually lead his family, you have to be, in my opinion, a Christian long enough when you go to take on that role as a husband. And specifically if you have kids early, specifically as a father, that is a weight that you can't begin to imagine until you faced it. And all three of us are coming into this, right with young kids. My goodness. I mean, if I was a new Christian here, you'd spend the first ten years of your life majorly messing up your kids and finally getting it together. Where your oldest, he's now ten, and you really weren't a spiritual leader because you weren't even knowing how to lead yourself. So that's where I would push back a little bit on that one. But I do want to kind of get into. Okay, let's say it's not a specific age. We can't come up with 2021, the. [00:29:54] Speaker B: 13, which, let's just get us on the record. I certainly don't think it's a specific age. Do either one of you all think it's a specific age? [00:30:02] Speaker A: No, I don't either. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Okay, we're all in agreement there. [00:30:04] Speaker C: Joe, go ahead. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:05] Speaker C: Okay, so if it's not the specific age, what are we looking for here, fellas? Are we looking for younger, older? What age thereabouts, should we look to baptize? [00:30:16] Speaker B: So let me state kind of the arguments for both sides, and then I think we're just going to kind of go ahead and open it up, roundtable it as far as what our opinions are on this. So the arguments for the younger age, and I will go ahead and say I see this in the church of Christ more than the other. By that, I mean, I see baptizing kids on a younger end far more than I do older. And by younger, I'm talking 910 1112. But the arguments for baptizing them younger, you'll hear parents talk about, better be safe than sorry. Well, if we wait, what if we push them off and then they never want to get baptized again? That's a big one. I hear of, like, if a kid expresses interest at age ten and you push him off because you don't think he's ready, well, what if he never comes and asks again? They'll bring that up a lot. You'll hear them say, hey, if we can inspire a love for God in them earlier rather than later, that's something that's positive again, is what they would say. And so, yeah, to be honest, I think most of parents baptizing their kids young does boil down to not in a malicious way, but it's a mental. Check it off your list. Like, okay, I got my kid baptized. The biggest struggle, the biggest thing I was worried about as a parent, which it should be, that's answered for them earlier. And I think that that is something that is a kind of a weight off of parent shoulder, speaking as somebody who has a two year old. So I fully understand that. But at the same time, that would be what I would imagine most parents who baptize their kids younger are thinking is, okay, my biggest job as a parent is done. Which gets us into a whole nother issue. That's the mindset. But one of you all want to get us into kind of what the argument for the older age is. [00:31:57] Speaker A: Sure. So along with the lines of some of those things about sexual temptation, marriage, or whatever else is, you just understand commitments better. You understand what you're getting into, the counting, the cost thing that Jesus talks about. I believe in Luke 14 going off the top of my head there, knowing what you're signing up for, you have a better understanding of sin again if you face temptation, if you've really fallen and struggled with it. I mean, to my little brother, sometimes, it's really the kind of thing Paul talks about in romans seven. Like, man, I'm really trying not to, and I still am to this point. [00:32:37] Speaker B: I have asked kids before who have expressed interest in baptism. Either that or they know are coming off getting baptized. I've asked them, what sins do you think you're guilty of? And I've had kids that honestly couldn't tell me anything. They just kind of stared me in the face, like, that's a problem to me. [00:32:57] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:58] Speaker B: I think this is where I'm going to go ahead and come out and say it. I think we baptize kids far too young in the church of Christ. Far too young. And I was baptized at eleven. So that's something that I look back on it like, man, was I too young. But the reason why I believe that we baptized too young and why I would advocate for a later age, 15 1617, is kind of the range where I'm at is for several reasons. I don't want to beat a dead horse. But if a kid has no idea what sexual temptation is, lust is, if they've never faced pornography, I don't think they have any business getting baptized again. 910 year olds that haven't even hit puberty yet or coming forward want to get baptized. Personally, I would not ever feel comfortable baptizing somebody that age who did not face those things. So there's that. The understanding of commitment, I think, is a huge point of like, this is a lifestyle. You are signing up for a lifestyle. This is not just a, I'm at church camp, my friends are here, I just want to go ahead and get baptized, is what I'm supposed to do. No, we have to make sure that we are emphasizing far more that this is a lifestyle of discipleship, not just a kind of rite of passage thing that you do again at church camp because everybody else is doing it. I really feel like that gets missed so many times as far as teaching goes in the church of Christ of like, this is a commitment. And not coincidentally, what do we see from a lot of adults? Not a lot of commitment, not a lot of commitment to the discipleship lifestyle. So I definitely think there's a correlation there. And then the last thing I'll say before I hand it off to y'all to kind of share your take, this is something I put on as the outline for why I argue for an older age. I do think there needs to be some element of do you have the ability to choose against God and still choose him? Do you have the ability to say, no, I'm good, I want to live for myself, but still choose God? A twelve year old, in my opinion, really does not. What's he going to do? Tell his parents, hey, you can't take me to church? That's typically not going to happen. Once you get to driving age 16 or so, 17, obviously you're still under your parents roof, but I think you would theoretically have that ability to say, no, I'm going to live for myself. I'm going to choose to mess around with my girlfriend I'm going to choose to go do drugs, whatever. I'm going to choose to live for myself or I'm going to choose God. I'm going to choose to be a Christian. I'm going to choose baptism. I think, again, ten year olds don't have that ability to choose. And so them getting baptized, it's almost like a. Okay, what was your other option at ten years old? Does that make sense? So those, I guess, would be kind of the foundational points for why I would push for an older age for baptism. Again, 1516, 1715 is probably still a little young. 1617. What are your guys'thoughts on that? What are your personal opinions? I mean, we all have young kids, so this is something that's going to come up for us here in about ten years. I think I started asking my dad about baptism at eight, nine, Joe, Jack, you all's kids are not that far from that. And so this will be coming up here pretty soon. As far as discussions you'll have to have as a family, what are y'all's thoughts? [00:36:01] Speaker C: Yeah, Harrison's already asked me about baptism. Do I need to get know, can I get, you know, you're, you try to help him understand a little bit. I do lean toward the older, but as you're talking and as I'm thinking about it, there is a part of me that I suppose it's a little bit different for those in the church. We've talked about this before. It's both a blessing and a curse, somewhat, to grow up in the church, and when I say a curse, trust me, the blessings are far outweighed the curses. I would say in terms of growing up in Christendom and in the church of Christ and everything else at the same time, it does really make it difficult to understand where you stand to know sin and to be able to make a different choice, especially if you're from a homeschooled, sheltered family. What I would be scared to death of is my kid really doesn't, I don't give him a lot of opportunities to choose because, yes, I am going to shelter my kids, in which case those sins become sneaky at a time. And what I would be afraid of is, and I have seen this happen, unfortunately, you do everything right. You're homeschooling, you grow up in the church. And then the kid, there was a spark. You could have had him at 1112 years old. He really was into it. He was convicted by sin. You push him off, push him off, push him off. And then it kind of gets to the point where it's like 1617 by the time you start coming back around to the discussion. No thanks, I'm not really in it. Like, I literally know a family where this happened. So that would be a little bit of the concern as you squash the spirituality that they have at a younger age, which, of course, they're going to have at a younger age than kids in the world. A guy at 30 who's really lived the debaucherous lifestyle, who comes to Christ and is baptized, is like, whoa, what a weightlifted. This is incredible. I've been saved from my sins. It's really difficult to get a goody two shoes christian homeschool kid to grasp that. Okay, maybe you do. I grasp it through porn. I was baptized at ten. I came into pornography at twelve years old. So this is very much my story in terms of what we're talking about. Maybe you've been baptized too young. I can also point to tons of guys I've worked with who have been baptized, mainly to get out of porn and were basically very disappointed by God because I got baptized. I thought God would take it away and he didn't. The addiction is still there. Like the brain chemistry and everything that goes along with the addiction. You're not just given miraculous powers to overcome things you've been struggling with for the last four years. There is a part of me that is glad I was baptized ahead of time because the commitment was already made of, like, I'm going to see this thing through to the end and I know I'm covered by God. There's a grace element. It wasn't always there, but there's a grace element. So I don't know. I'm bringing up a lot of different points I generally go to. I do think you're right. We need to have more of an understanding. But there are things that cause me to pump the brakes. Maybe there's more fear based, something I need to work through, but there are parts of me that are like, for a kid growing up in the church, it's very difficult to find that right balance of they are all about it at eleven years old and we go, no time out. I don't think so. You're not quite ready to make that commitment. We are really hoping that they stay on fire for God for the next five years, man. Kids come and go. If we know anything about kids, they are all over the place. [00:39:03] Speaker B: So your argument would be, go ahead. [00:39:06] Speaker C: I'm sorry, we don't want to make this a flash in the pan. Like, hey, you're spiritual, let's get you baptized. I'm not saying that, but there is an element of like when kids in the church really start to understand spirituality, which I feel like you at eleven, me at ten. I do think I was too young in ways at the same time. Man, you are convicted. I stayed awake for night after night after night thinking, if I die, I'm going to hell. Well, Joe, don't worry about it. You're covered. My conscience didn't tell me I was covered. I really thought I was going to hell if I died. So kick the can down the road and hope that by 16 I'm ready to go, man. I don't know. I mean, I had big things to do at 16. Who knows at that point if I'm going to make that decision? I would like to think, absolutely, I'd make the decision. [00:39:46] Speaker B: But it's tough not to at all put words in your mouth. But essentially you're arguing in some instances that baptism at a young age, 1112, could serve as a catalyst for them staying faithful. Essentially. [00:40:00] Speaker C: Yeah. It kind of gets them started on the path of like, I have made a commitment. This is something that the family brings you up. [00:40:08] Speaker B: They won't go down the path at all. Okay. [00:40:10] Speaker C: It's not that they wouldn't, it's that it could potentially be a lot scarier when the world has grabbed them, that they have not made any commitment and they could potentially, which, again, not to beat a dead horse, but I've seen this happen where the world comes in, it snatches the kid because they. We're kind of waiting, kind of waiting, kind of waiting. And then when they go to grab them, it's like too late. You really haven't had them. So I don't know. Jack, you got some thoughts? [00:40:32] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a few things I'm going to cross examine there because it's interesting stuff. And I don't necessarily disagree with you. [00:40:38] Speaker C: And I don't necessarily, I'm not standing super firm on this either, because I do agree with so many points to Will and you and I have had this conversation, so feel free. [00:40:46] Speaker A: We're all being devil's advocates here. That's great. So part of it being that some people would make the case of, all right, if you tell an eleven or twelve year old you can't get baptized and they say yes, sir, then they weren't ready anyway. I think that's kind of compelling and I think this was kind of what you did at ten was, no, you. [00:41:06] Speaker B: Can'T tell if they bug you about it. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I know people that have told their parents, okay, you don't have to baptize me. I'm going to get somebody to do it. Okay. So this is going to happen with that. But to that I would question again, come back around on the other side and say how much of that comes from in the churches of Christ that we start telling kids 1011, 1213. You're kind of pushing it. You're getting kind of dragging on there like where's it going? I remember the 6th grade Bible class we had in Sunday school or whatever that it was pretty much the full court press. Here's the gospel plan. And you guys need to do this within a year or so of that. Most of the kids did without that, without kind of this expectation that hey, twelve is about the right time. Twelve or 13 was about what I remember most of the kids in our church doing. I was almost 14. Once again, I'm the old man on the show as the old man getting baptized, all that. So with that I kind of question everything that you just said there. What if we ran it through this filter? If you didn't have that pressure put on you and you were raised to think, hey, I'm being trained to take on this really big commitment and once I'm ready to step into the commitment I'll know that if it had been framed differently, would you have had that I'm going to hell dream? At eleven years old it's impossible to know. Or ten years old, it's impossible to know that you wouldn't have. But I think it's worth asking. [00:42:43] Speaker C: It is. I was a lot younger than pretty much anybody else in my class because I did it in fifth grade. And so I know what you're saying. There's a little bit of full court press. I don't think I got it too much in fifth grade because everybody was like, are you serious? You're getting baptized? [00:42:56] Speaker A: You might have been the only one in your class though, who was the youngest child. And that's very true. [00:43:04] Speaker B: I think there's a key indicator here because another question we need to get to is does maturity play a part in this? And I think the answer is obviously yes. You could have an eleven year old that is playing Fortnite for 8 hours a night, probably not in the most mature state to get baptized. [00:43:20] Speaker A: I knew a kid who would play with Legos like the entire worship service and they'd pass the communion and he'd get up and take his cracker and juice and then Legos. [00:43:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Who signed off on that? [00:43:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Forgive me for thinking that that kid probably wasn't ready. So yes, obviously maturity plays a role in this because you could also, again, to that example, have an eleven year old that is incredibly mature spiritually, you could argue knows what he's doing. I think a key indicator in this and this is what I plan on asking my kids. I desperately want to make sure that they know what sin is. I desperately want to make sure they know what sin is, what their sin does to God and why they need to be saved from it. This is where I get frustrated with the church of know mode of just making sure that they know the steps of salvation and making sure that they believe that Jesus came and died for their sins. I'm not saying you have to have know in depth understanding of all New Testament theology, but I'm, but I'm sorry, you need to know what justification is, you need to know about the wrath of God. You need to know that when you are looking at a woman to lust for her, you need to know that when you are clicking on that website, when you are cussing with your best friend, whatever it is, you need to know that you deserve the wrath of God for that. And not as a scare tactic or anything. Again, that's why you might argue that 1112 year olds aren't ready because it would be a scare tactic. But I see a lot of kids that they don't understand that they know Jesus came and died for their sins. They sort of understand what that means, but not really. So they get baptized. I think the key indicator is do you know what sin is and do you know what it does to God? Do you know why you need to be saved from it? Again, the kids that can't answer the question of what sin is or to Jack's point, what sins have you? You know, my room hasn't been clean. Know I disobey my parents. That's kind of the innocence coming out of like they don't know what sin is and what it does to, that's the, that's kind of the angle that I plan to take with my kids. Joe, do you have a thought? [00:45:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say sin and sins like you have to have about the construct of sin, right? You have to understand sin as a concept. You also have to understand individual sins. You spoke to both of those there. I think both are very important. I think a lot of young kids know sin. They know about sin. They know that like doing bad things, missing the mark, doing bad things. Yeah, that separates me from God. No, but what are your sins? God saves us from both. Christ saves us from both. But I think we need to have a better understanding of not only the concept of sin, but our individual sins and how those are affecting God. To your point. So I think that's a really good point in bringing that out. Once again, where it becomes a difficult discussion is kids who grow up in this, Harrison's going to know what sin is conceptually, but also he may know what his sins are individually way earlier than somebody else who maybe goes to church Sunday morning only, isn't paying attention all that much. We're trying to do like daily Bible study. He's going to know it much sooner. This is to your maturity point, where you see this go wrong is when a parent goes, oh, my kid's mature enough. It's very easy for the parent to look at their kid as mature. It's the same thing as, my kid's the smartest in the class, my kid's. [00:46:26] Speaker B: The best athlete, my kids play baseball. Yeah, exactly right. [00:46:29] Speaker C: Like my kids, I'm probably going to do the same exact thing where I hold them up on the pedestal. This is the difficulty for parents, is you have to make sure you actually know your kid and know the maturity level is there. And I would err on the side of a little bit older, a little bit. To be fair, 1112 is tough. [00:46:47] Speaker B: If a parent does their job, especially the dad, as the spiritual leader, you are shepherding your kids and their faith, you should theoretically have a pretty good grasp on their spiritual life, on their relationship with God. Obviously, that's between them and God. And so you're not going to be able to know every intimate detail. But again, if you're doing your job as a dad, which most dads are not, as we've talked about before, but if you are, you should have a pretty good handle on, okay, he knows what sin is. He knows, again, all these things that we've talked about. I guess my argument, Joe, is that, again, the commitment angle, the ability to choose against it, I do think all those things do come at a later age. But what I would say, I completely understand your point. [00:47:27] Speaker C: Ethiopian eunuch, how much did he rides? Philip rides in the chariot with him, explains Isaiah to him. How much did he understand the take up your cross daily, like everything that comes with. Maybe it was a. [00:47:42] Speaker B: We don't really know. [00:47:43] Speaker C: We don't know. It is speculation. [00:47:45] Speaker A: It could have been somebody who already knew the law really well, and so he had had a commitment to follow God, that commitment good enough to take him from Ethiopia to Jerusalem. [00:47:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no doubt. [00:47:54] Speaker C: He knew about commitment. He knew about commitment. Okay, let's bring in another one of acts. I think we have this on the outline. Act 16, philippian jailer, baptize him in his household. Also speculation, because his household could have been 30 year olds all the way up and nobody young. But is there an element of the household is baptized that maybe there are some younger kids within that household? I'm sure you've heard that argument before. What are your thoughts on that? [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a bit speculative. [00:48:22] Speaker A: It could have been infants, too. I mean, you start playing that game, right? You're playing with fire there. I want to cross examine. To me, this is the most interesting part of this episode, the part about young people knowing sin, because, again, all three of us grew up in the church and had different struggles or whatever else. But a kid whose parents maybe help him avoid a porn addiction, or a girl who doesn't have anything like that, and maybe they can name their sins and they understand what sin is, but they're not going to have that depth of, wow, God saved me from the know, like the addict had, like, the guy that came out of a life of alcohol or out of prison, or the woman who had just been through the wringer in life and all that and comes like, jesus really wants me kind of thing. And I always struggled with that. Like, seeing people who converted to the church out of that and the power, the passion, the fire they had for God. [00:49:15] Speaker B: It was somewhat missing for all three of us. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, what you do. Do I need to really dig deep on, man, I told a lie that one time, and, boy, that was just as bad. And it's like, in a sense, it is. In a sense, it's not. And so how do you have that deep love for God? And I think, and this is where I can sympathize a bit with the reformed view of, like, what you want your kid to do is, hey, I'm a Christian. Like my father before me, like my grandfather before him all the way back, I love God. And this is what he's done for our family. And this is what our family does, that, you know, what? We can trace our family line back to when God pulled somebody out of that. And now I don't need to feel the depravity of being pulled out of prison, addiction, whatever else. The thing God saved me from is that generations ago and now generationally, I'm here and I enjoy a christian family. I enjoy parents who love me. I enjoy siblings who I love, and I enjoy a church family that I've grown up around and has nurtured me since I was born. And this is great and I'm a part of this and I'm going to continue this on. And I think with that, that's what I want to convey to my kids more than the, all right, you're twelve here. Believe, repent, confess, be baptized of. Like, yeah, all that's going to be part of it. But you are a part of a lineage here that what you enjoy is salvation from sin, but also salvation. Look at what the world has out there. Look how depressed and sad and broken all those people are. Not that we're better than them, but we have that because of Christ. And that's the love that you have, is I want to keep this good thing going rather than I feel like a lot of us church of Christ kids do get scared into it not to tell my story at too much length. As I said, I was older. I was just kind of waiting on like, how do I know? How do I know? How do I know? And I almost died or got severely injured on a four wheeler path with my dad. Lo and behold, that night. It's time. [00:51:12] Speaker B: It drove you to the waters of baptism. It did. [00:51:15] Speaker A: Like, man, if I die, I just don't know where I'm going to wake up on the other side. And it's like, it shouldn't be that. And this doesn't get into the age at all, but it goes into the mindset. And I think it's the mindset that drives the early ages. [00:51:27] Speaker C: A lot of times that's been a difficult discussion for me, because on the one hand, we see Peter at Pentecost acts too. He lays the hammer down and kind of scares know you crucified Christ. It wasn't, hey, God loves you. It's like you put to death the Son of God. You better know, get right, repent and be baptized. Right. So there is a fear factor present there. But at the same time, I agree with you. That was it really the best case. I was too young at ten, I think I was too young. It was mainly done out of I'm going to hell, I'm scared of death. Did I understand the commitment that I. No, I did not. So that's why I push for olders. I really did need to know that you're right, though, that I think we push the fear side way too much. Instead of, there's so many other things you make a very interesting point, though, on, because what you're really talking about is the emotional connection, right? There's an emotional connection for the 30 year old addict who comes out of it that's like, I love Jesus because I know what life's been like. [00:52:23] Speaker A: A lot of church kids don't have. [00:52:25] Speaker C: We just don't have that emotional connection. However, passing the baton to your kid and him carrying it and going, this is what we do here. This is what we're about. There is an emotional connection. Like, I'm proud of you, son. You're just taking the torch. So I really do as you're saying that it makes a lot of sense to me as to if we can get our kids to understand is the multigenerational faithfulness we talk about a lot. That's the emotional connection there. This is about something bigger than you. We can point back to, we literally can in our lineage, going back to my grandmother and how she was baptized and kind of passing it down and everything that's been changed since then in our family, that's legacy. That's something we want to pass down. So maybe that is it. And we're not getting baptized just for the emotion. But if anybody says, well, you don't really need emotion. Yeah, you do, because it wreaks havoc to go, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. And you never really have emotion for God. You go, love. [00:53:14] Speaker A: How do we get this right? [00:53:16] Speaker C: There has to be emotion present. [00:53:17] Speaker A: Okay. I haven't actually given where I stand on this. [00:53:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. [00:53:22] Speaker A: I'm with will on the older age, the commitment thing, because you mentioned, like, the kids that put it off young and then maybe don't get baptized later on. I think we have the opposite problem. A lot of times where somebody gets baptized at twelve and it's like, all right, we'll go to youth group, go to college group, go to singles group, go to young professionals group. And when you get married and have kids, then you can be a full fledged member of the church. That's 15 years for a lot of people. And a lot of people don't do it. A lot of people kind of get lost in the shuffle along that. Whereas I don't expect a guy to come out of the baptistry and get up and preach a sermon. I do expect them to start growing into service to the church, being an active member. [00:53:56] Speaker C: Right. [00:53:57] Speaker A: And we shouldn't put them in preaching or teaching positions for the men anytime soon. But, like contributing, being part, and you're expected to do something I was baptized at 13. There was no expectation on me ever, literally, until I chose to get involved and say, hey, can I do something? Or whatever else. I mean, it might be like past the communion tray. That's not what I'm talking about. But like involved in the work of the church, helping other people, serving in some way. And I think a lot of people, same thing, are never asked. And so they never do. And we have this complaint about, choose your own adventure, Christianity, where do you. [00:54:30] Speaker C: Think it comes from? Right? [00:54:32] Speaker B: And the problem is compounded when they go off to college at 18, if they're not going to get involved, and I know I brought this up before, but baptize them at 120 expectations, other than show up to the youth class and maybe a devo every now and then for six years, they hit 18, they go off to college, and then we're all shocked when they don't really have a faith. Well, of course they don't have a faith. They haven't been asked to contribute anything to the church. They haven't really been acting on that faith. It's just kind of remained dormant again for ten years, and anything that remains dormant for ten years is probably going to fade away and die. And so, yeah, again, you said it very well. Why the early? Because you can almost make the case. Let's say you did baptize them at twelve or 13. If you're going to do that, then you need to start expecting something of them. And that is kind of hard to do with a 1213 year old that can't drive themselves anywhere, that is still at the mercy of their parents, that is still, again, very much a child. And then this is where the cultural differences that we talked about earlier do play a part. Kids are maturing so much later, for the most part, especially, unfortunately, nowadays, guys, young men, they're maturing so much later. The last time I saw twelve words. [00:55:43] Speaker A: For them, they should. [00:55:45] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe they could. Great idea. Odly young men. There's an acronym somewhere. [00:55:48] Speaker A: Write that down anyway. [00:55:51] Speaker B: But the last time I saw a twelve or 13 year old man that I. Or young man that I look back and like, man, that guy was really mature. I couldn't tell you the last time. It's because most kids aren't, again, tech devices, public school, all these things. And so, yeah, Jack, I'm just basically just echoing you, echoing my point there about why I don't see most twelve year olds as ready. And Joe, you brought up the exceptions. And I agree that there might be exceptions, but for the most part, in american christianized church society, even within the Church of Christ, you got twelve year olds. That again, if it's just showing up to the high school devo every Sunday night, that's not really the walk of discipleship. [00:56:29] Speaker C: I think about me at ten, I think about a twelve year old inviting them into a men's group, men's meeting. We don't have elders here at the church. We're certainly working on it. Would you have a twelve year old come in? I have a tough time seeing it as. Yeah, you're actively a leader in this congregation type of thing. And I know they don't have to lead in that way, but if you baptize a man at 25, absolutely. Coming in like, we want to know your thoughts. You're part of this congregation, you're part of the men here. And so we want to disciple and everything else. I have a tough time seeing that at ten. 1112, my sweet spot, in my opinion, is 14 to 16. And the reason why is theoretically, let's say, and I really don't want my kids going off to college at 18, theoretically, let's say they go off to college at 18. You baptize them at 17 or 18, you are sending them as a new babe in Christ out into the world to be devoured when Satan hits them hardest. [00:57:19] Speaker B: Why, I wouldn't know. [00:57:19] Speaker C: Satan does that. [00:57:20] Speaker A: But. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I know what you're saying. [00:57:21] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. But as we're talking, this is going to be for millions of kids in America and for the millions that listen to this podcast, right? But for the people for this podcast, that may happen where your kid goes off if you're waiting till 17 or 18 and then they decide to go to college, man, I don't know. That's playing with fire, in my opinion. Babe in Christ go there. So I think 14 to 16, you start driving at 16, you can choose whether and most. I mean, if I ever decided not to go to church, my parents would kill me at 16. But even then you're able to drive, you're able to kind of make your own decisions in some ways. So I think that's kind of the sweet spot in my opinion. [00:58:00] Speaker B: Yeah, we can parse the differences about age. Like I think I said, 15 to 18, and so that's one year later if my kid comes. So I guess that's what I'll ask is, and we actually do have one more topic that we got to hit and we're backing up on our standard kind of 1 hour timeline here, but this is some really good discussion. I kind of told you all what I'm going to be looking for as far as indicators of my kids being ready to be baptized. Is there anything else that you all would bring up of, like, say, hypothetically, in 510 years, however long it takes for your kids to come to you, what are some questions you're going to ask them? What are some things you are really going to be looking for? One of the things that I didn't bring up that I'm going to look for is you come to me and want to get baptized. What is your past year, six months to a year of worship looked like? Are you singing out? Are you taking notes during the sermon? Are you really looking like you want to be engaged during worship? Or are you just maybe not playing with legos like Jack said earlier, but kind of zoning off, not really following along in your bible, not really singing out? To me, that is an indicator of how spiritually minded are you? So, yeah. Is there anything else that y'all would add to this, of what you're going to look for when it comes to your kids in a few years? [00:59:09] Speaker A: That's another thing that makes this hard with the difference between church kid conversion and outsider conversion. An outsider? Well, I haven't been to worship in six months. [00:59:16] Speaker C: Okay. [00:59:16] Speaker A: Well, you can still get baptized, but like you say, your kid, if they're not taking it seriously and they're there every week, I think it is a fair indicator. And so looking for things like that, obviously, I think the conviction of the heart is such a big deal, and if the way they're treating their siblings, the way you're seeing in day to day life of, like, there's just nothing there. Well, I want to get baptized. Okay. Why do you understand that this is a change in the way you're doing everything? And is there godly sorrow over that's going to be the repentance that you need to go through this? So I would add that, Joe. [00:59:54] Speaker C: Yeah. I would say I was thinking about this. Maybe this is a dumb idea. Maybe have your kid write a letter. Why is it important for you to become a Christian? Handwrite a letter. And if he goes, I don't want to handwrite a letter. You're not ready. If you're not serious enough to handwrite a letter to me or to Jesus or however you want to do it as to. Here's the reasons why. I want at least two, three reasons why you want to know. I want to be added to the body of Christ. I want to have my sins washed away. I want to serve Christ, those type of things. I want to hear that, I want to see that. And I want to, that he takes this seriously enough that he's willing to write a letter like that. I don't know. [01:00:34] Speaker B: I've seen people to say before, like, write a letter of why you wanted to become a Christian. And if you look back in 20 years and you're like, oh, that was the reason. Maybe that's something that I would definitely write it down. Yeah, I'm going to make an executive decision here because I want to talk about re baptism here. We were talking about maybe push it to the next, to the extended segment, but I think it very much plays into this discussion because Joe, you said multiple times on this episode you were baptized ten. I was baptized at eleven. Based on my own definition. I got baptized too young. Right. And so let's ask this kind of last question, this last topic of what about re baptism? Should we be re baptizing people? And I think there's several reasons why people get re baptized. One would be maybe they were baptized into a different denomination, so to speak. And so obviously, I guess our definition of that would be that's not re baptism because they're getting baptized. [01:01:32] Speaker A: If you were baptized as an infant. Yeah, probably go ahead and actually. [01:01:36] Speaker B: Right. But yeah, I was even thinking like, if you were baptized at 14 at your Baptist church camp, there'd be some that would argue that you need to get re baptized. But obviously, I think the main one we're talking about is me and Joe's situation. Baptized pretty young, maybe 20 years down the road. You look back and go, I'm not. [01:01:52] Speaker C: Really sure, for the right reasons. Right. [01:01:54] Speaker B: And so most people get re baptized, they just go ahead and again, I think a lot of it is a rather be safe than sorry thing. I've heard Jack's thoughts on it's been a while, but I am going to let him go first. Be rep. Should we be re baptizing people? [01:02:08] Speaker A: I'm glad you got to this because I think this is way more common than you would think. My wife did, one of my sisters did. I mean, we could probably just sit here. [01:02:16] Speaker B: I think my wife did as well. [01:02:18] Speaker A: There's a lot of people who go through that because again, fear 8910, 1112 years old and then come around later like, well, I just did it because I was scared to death or I did it because church camp. [01:02:28] Speaker B: And it was, and then it's fear again because you're worried that you weren't the first time. [01:02:33] Speaker A: Right. And I think there is kind of a thought that drives a lot of the re baptism is it can't hurt anything to get back in the water. [01:02:40] Speaker C: And I kind of get that. [01:02:41] Speaker A: On the other hand, I'm pretty much against it, generally speaking, in the sense of if you did it because you thought it was something that Jesus wanted you to, because how much do you need to know right up front? You don't need to know the entirety of the christian life. I think it's very good to hold off so that people understand the commitment and things like that. But as far as if your knowledge is imperfect, but you're doing it because Jesus told me I need to do this if I want to be saved, if I want to be a Christian. So I'm going to do it. You're not redoing that part and that's the essence of it. Now, I think better understanding. Yeah, I push for that. I push for an older age, better commitment, whatever. [01:03:22] Speaker B: But to your point, theoretically you could have a better understanding in 20 more years. So do you need to get rebaptized? [01:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah, you're always going to grow. I think that's, yeah, that's a great way to sum it up, Joe, does. [01:03:32] Speaker C: Acts 19 come into the discussion at all, him re baptizing the elders? Nephis of you were baptized with the baptism of repentance but not of the Holy Spirit. So he re baptizes them? [01:03:42] Speaker A: I don't think so. [01:03:46] Speaker C: What I'm getting at is they are different. But what I was thinking is, okay, you got the baptist kid who's baptized into the church, but not for the repentance, not for the forgiveness of sins. I don't know. That would be something. I think that's a conscience issue. That'd be something that you really need to get into. I would be pushing for, yeah, I. [01:04:03] Speaker A: Think you need to be re baptized because I wasn't. I wasn't addressing that kind of scenario at all. [01:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I know you're talking another one. And I would say, yeah, you need to because it wasn't for forgiveness sins. I think that's where x 19 comes in. I'm with you on the re baptism side of things. There's not a lot I disagree with on anything that you said there. I look at mine at ten. To your point, Will, of what you were saying earlier, write it down. I'm really glad they had me write it down because I was digging through my notes. This is a little while back, a few years back, because I struggle with it, man. Do I get rebaptized in ten years. It was at ten, was I thinking, did I know enough? And sure enough I found the booklet where I had written down why, and it's like, yeah, I pretty much knew it. I was able to give everything about the godhead. I was able to give all the correct reasons, write down some of the sins or whatever it was of why I was doing it and where I was at the headspace. Did I know enough? I would not do it again at ten. But I also wouldn't get re baptized because it's like I did know enough to say Jesus is my lord, I am being saved from my sins. From my sins. And yeah, I would push for more. Everything we've talked about in this one a little bit later, but I think it was legit. [01:05:12] Speaker B: I think this is one that I would lean pretty heavily on, the what is your conscience telling you? Type of thing. I've been a part of conversations where as soon as somebody found out that the young person maybe was unsure of why they did it, it was like, okay, well then you better get baptized. [01:05:30] Speaker C: Like, go, go. [01:05:32] Speaker B: What are you waiting for? I certainly would not do that. I'm agree with y'all that there is an element of I did obey the understood, you know, somewhat, at least what the gospel told Jesus wants me to, et cetera. And so again, I would kind of lean on the conscience of the person involved if it's keeping them up at night and they are just worried that they didn't understand whatever. I also would not have a problem re baptizing them. I think generally speaking, yeah, I agree with you all. I would leave the decision almost completely up to them in the sense of, listen, maybe here's what I think. I think that you are in a right standing with God, but I can't make that decision for you and let their conscience decide. So not a lot to add there. I know that that is, to Jack's point, something that a lot of people struggle with. And I like the point that I don't think is brought up enough. Jack's point of you shouldn't view the baptism as illegitimate just because you think you didn't know enough or something like that. You knew Jesus wanted you to, you knew it was the gospel, you knew know. Hopefully at least you knew that you were getting baptized for the remission of your agree. I agree with your point there, Jack. So any other thoughts to add to that? That is kind of the last section we wanted to hit with this episode. A lot of ground, age of accountability, rebaptism all this stuff, input, baptism, baptism. One of the most important things we'll ever choose to do. And again, as three guys with very young kids, this is something that we have not really faced yet as far as our kids. I've had ten 1112 year olds come to me asking me these questions, and it's a little easier when it's not your kid. Obviously, to Joe's point, there is going to be some internal pressure of like, is this going to be the only time they ask? Is this going to be when they're on fire for God the most? Again, everything that Joe was saying earlier, so it'll be interesting to see. I would encourage anybody who's listening, focus plus subscriber or not comment. Let us know your thoughts, especially those of you who maybe are older, who have had kids go through this, what your kind of policy was, so to speak. What questions did you ask? That's something I'm always curious about, is what questions did you ask your kids to determine if they're ready or not? Because almost everybody has a different set of questions that they ask. Again, whether that be what do you think sin is? Or why did Jesus die? Or all these things? And so I'm curious about that. Leave your comments, leave your feedback. As always, focus plus subscribers, especially because we'll be addressing those in our extended deep end segment. That ought to be a very good one. Guys, anything to add? This has been a fascinating discussion. Appreciate everybody sticking with us. We will be back on Friday for our focus plus subscribers to continue to discuss this, maybe dive into the re baptism stuff a little bit more, or just answer some questions that people have. And then for everybody else, we will be back next week with another episode of the Thing Deeper podcast, presented by Focus Press. Thank you so much for listening. Our channel.