Women’s Roles: Church Offices, Ladies’ Days, and More

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to think deeper podcast. Jack Wilkey here with Joe Wilkie. Will Harab. We're talking women's roles this week. Very interesting, very always relevant one for 2000 years of church history. So we'll get to that in a minute. Just want to remind you guys, we really appreciate the deep thinkers, love the listeners we have. We get so much good feedback and focus plus subscribers, all that. But if you listen along and you want to know how to support the show, focuspress.org donate is the best way to do that. Just want to remind you that that's there, whether it's, I mean, there's the monthly recurring thing, but even if you just want to send something along every now and then, we sure appreciate that. And all who do donate again, focus plus it's $10 a month. That's just kind of like a regular donation and you get a lot of content for it if you want to do that, but plenty of ways to support us and we really appreciate again. And if you don't have the financial, pray for the show, but also likes shares on social media. Just help the word get out, tell a friend. I mean, that's how podcasts grow, is friends telling friends. And so financial support helps us a lot. If you can't do that, there's a lot of other ways. And we just again want to say we appreciate you guys and thanks for the help. All right, will, what do we got this week? [00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah, we've got a lot to get into with this episode. As you already said, jack, we're talking about women's roles in the church. Obviously, specifically, we're going to get into what we believe the New Testament teaches about women's roles in worship. But we're going to move kind of beyond that into what about some of the other things that is kind of commonly accepted that women are able to do ladies days and things like that? Children's ministries, female youth intern. There's a lot we're going to get to. I don't want to spoil the whole episode. That way everybody will stick with us and keep listening. But as we get this thing started, I do think it's an interesting exercise. If I were teaching a class, 50 people or so, and I just ask, hey, what is a woman's role in the church? What do you think the answers would be? How would you, as the listener respond if somebody asked you, what is a woman's role in the church? A lot of people, I would say, don't have an answer for this. A lot of people might kind of go maybe stutter through some things about serving or whatever, but a lot of people don't know. And there's a lot of confusion, I should say. There's not a lot of clarity about this topic. And so that's why we felt the need to address this topic in this episode. And I think it's a problem that has been kind of boiling over as of late in this world, in this society where feminism rules, where men are kind of viewed as the privileged group, and so we need to kind of shove them down and raise women up. Of course, we're doing that in all society with jobs and with, again, the media. You've got females being the stars of Disney movies. That's been the case for like, 1015 years. So we live in a society where they're really pushing women, taking more prominent roles in things, feature roles in things. Again, feminism is really driving this, that men have been privileged, and so they need to kind of be shouted down, and women have been oppressed, so they need to be raised up. Well, this leaks into the church quite a bit. You've got the rise of egalitarianism, of a lot of obviously, far more progressive leaning churches wanting to incorporate women into worship services, into leadership roles, into really being, again, kind of prominently featured in congregations. They're looking to be more inclusive in that way. You've got young people that are kind of viewing the church, especially the church of Christ, as sexist or misogynistic because we don't allow women to do those things. And we were talking about this a little bit off air. I'm going to let Joe get into it a little bit more specifically. But I think the reason young people view it that way is because when we say or when they ask why women can't have a leadership role, what's our answer usually? Oh, well, the Bible says they can't. Well, okay. To a 17 year old, they're going to be like, okay, cool. So God hates women, or God is sexist or God is misogynistic or all these things. We don't give people solid answers. We don't give people good enough answers. Guys, what did you want to get into as far as the introduction goes to this topic? Because, again, I do think there's a lot of just confusion, not a lot of clarity about this, and there's a lot we want to get into. But as far as this introduction and kind of why this is worth talking about, why this is a problem, what do you guys have to add? [00:04:26] Speaker C: I think this is an issue because we have kind of the ruling class. Oh, well, that's the preacher. He's our spiritual head. Well, that's the elder, he's our spiritual head. Which is true, the elders are. But then it's kind of like. And the rest of us, like, just down here, the little peasants. Right, the peasants, exactly. That type of idea. Instead of recognizing everybody does have a part to play. We preach ephesians four, whatever joint supplies and that sounds great. What does that tangibly mean? We have nothing for our women. We don't ever talk about how a woman can step up in church other than leadership. And so anytime a woman wants to step up, it's like, well, there's one thing you can do, it's either you do nothing or you step up in leadership, which is, as you said, the rise of egalitarianism is like, well, why can't they? There's a lot of reasons why God says that's not supposed to be the case, but this rises and this becomes a question because we have nothing else for them. We don't ever discuss the ways a woman can practically get involved in church without it being a leadership position. It's like leadership or nothing. That's the point I'm making here, is like, it's leadership or nothing, whether it's with a man or a woman, because everybody else just gets to skip church and gets to do whatever else. And we're not really required to do much to Jack's point about consumerism, right, where we come in and we consume and it's like, well, yeah, so you either are doing nothing in the church or you're leading in the church. And so women for church, Christ, are doing nothing in the church, is what it seems like. And that's not fair. And they got a lot more. And that's what we're here to discuss. Jack, any thoughts? Us? [00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah, two things. One, it's the same problem we have in so many other ways. We are very firm on what the no's are. No, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do the other thing. But when you don't have like a positive prescription, you really leave yourself open to all kinds of, well, what about this? What if we kind of get. Just go this far? This is not forbidden. So it's something that just anything goes like, well, no, actually there are good things that we should be working towards. The other thing. And this kind of goes with what you're saying. I think I made this point in reset or something I wrote at some point there's a million words out there about church is basically only Sunday morning, like what we do at the building. And, well, if you're not allowed to get up and speak during that, well, then women are oppressed. They're not allowed to do anything. Sunday morning is obviously at the center of everything we do. It's not the only thing we do. And so kind of developing out, what else do we do, and how can somebody play a part in that? That's pretty important. [00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I would also say, again, from a societal perspective, there is a push for women to go out in the corporate world and to rise and to climb the corporate ladder just as much as the men do. And what has that resulted in? Kind of a devaluing of the home, a devaluing of the idea of a wife being a mother and being a stay at home mom and a homemaker and keeping the house and all these things that is viewed as inferior. That's viewed as something, and who would ever want to do that? And I see the parallel there again with the church as well. The leadership role is obviously the role that everybody should be striving for, and everything else is just irrelevant. Not the case. Not the case at all. And so let's get into the worship side of things I put on here. There is obviously a huge difference between the question of what is a woman's role in the church as opposed to what is a woman's role in worship. Those two things are not synonymous. That's kind of two different categories we need to get to. And so we are going to start with the most obvious position, obviously the one that we believe the New Testament teaches, which is, as far as worship goes, women are not allowed to speak, teach, hold any authority position in worship. And so most of our listeners that regularly listen to us are going to agree with us on this. But we did want to state this upfront and get it out of the way that obviously the New Testament does not prescribe women as being able to take authority roles, as leadership roles. [00:08:11] Speaker C: Speaking. [00:08:11] Speaker B: You can go to one corinthians 14. In fact, I am going to go to these two passages very quickly to read them, and then we're going to get to some of the objections that people bring up here in a second. But first, corinthians 14, obviously, starting in verse 26, there's a lot that Paul is writing about, kind of the order that needs to be taking place in church meetings. But verse 34, let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home. For it is shameful for women to speak in church. And then to me, the one that is better to go two is one. Timothy, chapter two, verses eleven through 15. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach her to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, holiness, with self control. The reason I like first Timothy two is because the egalitarians, of course, would point to this prohibition of women speaking and saying, well, that clearly was cultural. That was clearly something that back then was a big cultural issue. And so Paul, for the Corinthians, or Paul writing to Timothy, was concerned about women taking leadership roles for that culture for that time and doesn't really apply to us today. We go to first Timothy two. What's the problem with that is that Paul appeals all the way back to creation. He appeals to Adam. Adam was formed first, and even Adam wasn't. See, but Eve was essentially the reason for this is not because this congregation was having a particular issue that Paul felt needed to be addressed. The issue was, there is a clear hierarchy that goes all the way back to creation. And we also see it all the way throughout scripture that is intended to continue in, uh. And then I put on here also, you look at just all the New Testament examples of church leadership. Elders, deacons. They're to be the husband of one wife. What does that imply? Females are not authorized to have that. Know the evangelists and ministers that you know, Timothy and Titus, they're all men. And so, guys, I'm going to get you in here. Before we get to some of the objections, obviously, we believe firmly this is what the New Testament teaches. We believe it is not cultural. Any additional thoughts on kind of that position, that standpoint before we get to all the objections that are typically brought up about Deborah and Priscilla and Phoebe and all those. [00:10:30] Speaker C: Well, yeah, you look at the know exactly what you're talking about. Biologically, men are created to lead. We are, we are stronger. We run. Know the me and him. Anything you can do, I can do better to Michael Jordan's like, are you kidding me? This is such a joke. He's Michael Jordan. Try dunking a basketball on him. Whereas he would jump right over you. So no, not everything you can do. We can do better, and there are certain things that a woman can do. But the idea this rises because of the modern feminist movement of, like, well, they can do anything that a man can do. No, you can't. You can't. Like, biologically, you can't. But there's a reason. Know it calls first. Peter talks about the woman being the weaker vessel. There's a reason God calls men to lead, to step up, to be. We created Adam first. Like, it's specifically saying this. In one Timothy two, Eve is the one that fell into, was deceived. She's the one that initially took the bite of the fruit or whatever it is. Adam was not leading. That's why Adam gets in trouble is Adam. You listen to the voice of your wife. You did not lead Adam. So man, from the very beginning of time, and that's what he's appealing to in first Timothy two. This is not a cultural thing. As you said, he's using Adam and Eve, saying back from the very beginning, man was intended to take dominion. Man was intended to lead. He was intended to protect. He was intended to go out and fight the dragons. All along, if we took preaching seriously and if we understood what preaching really was, which, it's not some goofball get up there and have some memorable sermon that is full of everything. No, we are here to proclaim the word of God. We ought to have warriors in the pulpit, but because we have weak men in the pulpit and not warriors in the pulpit, we're one step away from having a woman. If the guy is going to be egalitarian, if the guy is going to be weak in a wimp in the pulpit, why not stick a woman up there? And that's what we've gotten to. Whereas if we understood the call of the christian man, if we understood what a warrior, Isaiah and Jeremiah and Elijah and these guys that are proclaiming the word of God, if we understood the manly men that they are and what it took to lead a congregation, maybe we wouldn't be so quick to consider throwing a woman up there. I know we in the church, Christ, aren't, but I'm talking about christendom in general. Weak men have given rise to this. [00:12:36] Speaker B: I was just going to say real quick, before Jack gets in here, what's the reason for this? You see, the fact that proclaiming the word of God, even just being in a leadership position in general, leading a congregation, that's going to require the, I guess, ability to step on people's toes, that's going to require. Sometimes offense is going to be taken, sometimes hard things are going to need to be said. Sometimes people's feelings are going to get hurt. What do we see? Just get on social media. That's all you have to do is just get on social media. What do we see for men compared to women? And again, this is just biologically true. If you're upset at us because we're stereotyping, it's biologically true. What do you see? Women are far more concerned, typically with people's feelings and hurt and nurturing coming across too harsh and too mean. And again, there's just more emotion involved. How do you think that's going to translate over to the pulpit? Or again, any leadership position where a tough stance has to be taken, biologically speaking, men are just going to be far more wired and able to do that. Jack? [00:13:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I was trying to pull up this thing. I couldn't find it on my phone, but there was just something that somebody wrote at one point of, and I wrote on this, I did an article about kind of testosterone and the following testosterone levels in society. Kind of going to Joe's thing about weak men. And I drew on this point that somebody made that those that have low testosterone, which is men that are low testosterone, and women, they make their decisions not on what is right, but on are other people okay with me thinking this? Why is that? Because if other people aren't okay with you thinking it, you might have to fight for it. You might get pushed. Yeah. Conflict. I mean, women are built to be conflict averse. Men are built to take on necessary conflict. The kind of conflict Joe's talking about. Know, Elijah and Ahab or Peter with the Sanhedrin or that kind of conflict, and you're just not wired for it. And it's a blessing that God did wire some people for it, and they should be the ones doing mean in the same sense. Biblically, you send a woman out to fight your battles. The text in Leviticus about a woman not wearing man's clothes, people will point to, well, that was about military gear. She shouldn't wear military gear. That's not diminishing the point. That's telling you there's a big difference between the two. That as Joe saying, you're built for certain things. And so I don't know if you guys have ever listened to, not that I'm in the habit of doing it, but I've seen clips here and there of women pastors getting up and preaching. [00:15:06] Speaker B: It's the fluffiest thing you've ever heard. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Well, it's exactly this. It's so therapeutic. It's so, come on, guys. And I'm not putting women down. I'm saying you're not built for what this role calls for. [00:15:19] Speaker C: And if she is super dogmatic about something, it's so performative. I'm sorry you have a tough time taking it seriously because this goes against their nature. So it's like, can a woman step up? This gets us into our next part of the discussion, but can a woman step up and potentially take the role of a male? She can, but this is the point is it's shaming to every male. If a woman sends the man out to fight the battle, it's like, well, yeah, that's what we're supposed to. The man's supposed to pay, the man's supposed to hold the door open, the man's supposed to go out. And when there's a bang outside the door in the house, the man gets up and goes and looks. If you send your wife, you are a pansy and you should be full of shame. Like, well, why? That's not their role. That's not their job. We instinctively know this society. We know it instinctively. We know this. So when you have a woman get up in the pulpit and fight your battles from the pulpit for you. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Every man exact same thing as sending her out to see what the loud noise goes, right? [00:16:11] Speaker C: Every man filled with shame. [00:16:13] Speaker A: In acts 20, when Paul's talking to the ephesian elders, he says, wolves are going to come in, savage wolves are going to come in from outside and try and tear apart your flock. You don't send the woman to fight the wolves, and man, people will look at this. That's misogynistic. You hate women or whatever. I'm telling you, we value you enough that we're not going to send you to fight wolves when you're not equipped to do it. That's not from, we think you're terrible, we think you're dumb. We think you're of no talent or anything. It is not that at all. We're going to take on this hard role that was given to us and not subject you to it. It's so participation trophy. Everybody can do whatever they want. No, you really. [00:16:49] Speaker B: That's what I was about to say real quick. Joe. Sorry is just, this whole myth of equality just drives me nuts. Everybody is not equal. And to try to pretend that everybody. I'm sorry. Even men to men, I am not as good at basketball. Joe, you brought up as Michael Jordan I am not on the same level as him, but should I, just for the sake of equality, say, well, I should get to play in the NBA? No, that's not how it works. There are certain things that people are given. Talent, skills, that people are blessed. Just we're designed differently. And especially when you bring in the male female dynamic. Again, we brought it up, biologically speaking. There are so many differences. Women are far more well equipped to handle certain things, and men are far more well equipped to handle certain things. And leading is one of them. You see it in corporations, you see it in businesses, you see it again, obviously, in congregations. That's what we're discussing. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Well, nations. I mean, Isaiah, it's a curse against a nation when women and children lead. [00:17:46] Speaker B: To try to further this myth that we all need to be on the same playing field and everybody's equal and the same is just a straight denial of human nature. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Well, equality of value is not equality of purpose, of, like, yes, we both have souls. We're both equally valuable before God. Jesus died for both of us. That doesn't mean we are created to do the same things. [00:18:08] Speaker C: And this goes back to our main point here, which is roles in the church. Women's roles in the church matter. For us to get this right, because we need them to know, you are incredibly valuable in certain aspects of the church, and men are incredibly valuable in other aspects of the church. We're both highly valuable. It's one thing to go, obviously, as you said, jack, like, Christ died for all of us. But sometimes it's, yeah, Christ died for all of us. Okay, now sit down and don't do anything. Like, no, but we do need you. We do have value, and these things are logical. And what I deal with in therapy is when logic stops and the behavior continues, then what? Well, it's driven by emotion. What's the issue here? We're driven by emotion where women have been basically pushed to the side like, we don't need you in. A lot of churches say, no, but we do. We are needed. Yes, you are. We've done a disservice in not giving them other outlets and not giving them other things that they could be doing. And so I wanted to get this into the next discussion. [00:18:56] Speaker A: I just want to wrap this by why we're so big on this. I think Christianity in general has gotten this wrong for 30 or 40 years with the complementarianism thing is, it grants, okay, in the home, the husband is the leader. In the church, the men are the leaders. Beyond that, everything's the same. No. If you don't take it back to design, you're not going to get. [00:19:16] Speaker C: Why? [00:19:16] Speaker A: There was a difference. If you're not getting it back to creation order, all the things that we're talking about here, you're going to misunderstand it. And when you misunderstand it of, like, well, if we're the same everywhere else, if a woman can be a soldier and a policewoman, why can't she be in the pulpit? She shouldn't be those things either. Okay, this is design creation order. Well, you can't find that, like, well, use your brain. These principles are all right there in Genesis. [00:19:40] Speaker C: Use your eyeballs. [00:19:41] Speaker A: I mean, again, as we're seeing with the transgender swimmer thing, your eyes make these things very clear. And does it mean you've got to have a tall, burly man in the pulpit? No, it means you need somebody that can do the things a man is called to do. [00:19:58] Speaker C: Okay, fellas, so let's transition into some of the objections, because we're saying, hey, this is what men are called to do. And what is the first thing you hear? [00:20:07] Speaker B: Whoa, whoa, whoa. [00:20:08] Speaker C: What about Deborah? Deborah's the first one. Now, we got a number of objections here, but this is by and far the biggest one that you will hear from those that are objecting to this going, hold on. But didn't Deborah lead the nation of Israel? Judges four. We all know the story of Deborah. If you don't go read judges four. And yes, Deborah seems to take a leading role. Bay Rack is kind of on the fence, kind of not being a man, and then she kind of leads him along and things like that. Seemingly, that's kind of what it seems in the text, is Deborah has to take the leadership role. So that would seem to indicate, fellas, that women are perfectly fine to take leadership roles. What would you say to that? [00:20:45] Speaker B: I always think it's so hilarious when people can't see the obvious fact that when they take the exception to something and say, see clearly, this means that this should apply to everything, and they make the exception the rule. And I think you clearly just read the book of judges, and you see that is the massive exception. And what you really see is, why did Deborah have to step up and lead? Because Bayrak and I guess the other men, for the children of Israel, weren't doing it. They weren't stepping up to do it. And what's interesting about it is you go to Hebrews eleven, who is mentioned in the hall of faith. It's not Deborah, it's Bayrak. And so again, I just think appealing to this exception and trying to make it the rule is just really kind of a logical fallacy, because the other thing, too, is you want to use Deborah leading the children of know or judging the children of, you know, kind of being in that leadership position or leadership role. I fail to see how that parallels with worship personally. But again, I think that's just something that if you're trying to make the Bible say something that it doesn't, you're going to go to whatever exception you can find. And I think that's usually what happens here, Jack. [00:21:57] Speaker A: Well, and as you mean, she didn't lead them out into battle. She went and got a man to lead them. Yeah, she had to kind of put a spur in him to, hey, buddy, let's go. Come on. Get your act together and get out there. But she was doing that because she knew it was not her job to go do it. And as you say, what do we got? 15 judges, one woman. You've got a string of kings, both northern and southern men. You have Queen Jezebel, but she wasn't ruling it herself. I mean, she was a bad influence on her husband. But King Ahab was there. Twelve apostles, all men. You go through all of these things. The high priest, patriarch, men, the priests, men, Moses, Aaron, Joshua. There's this pattern here. And like you say, oh, well, we got one. So that just proves that it should be 50 50. No, this is the exception that proves the rule. We kind of have that terminology that means exactly that. Like, yeah, this was a sign of judgment against the nation, that they didn't have a man, that Barack couldn't do it himself, that he had to have a woman go get him to do it. And as he's told, look, because you're such a chicken, Jl is going to get your victory here. She's going to be the one who. And she doesn't say Jl. That's just how it plays out. A woman is going to get your glory, and it does. And that's great that Deborah did her job. Jl did her job there. That's not the ideal. I think people have a really hard time separating the normative from the. [00:23:21] Speaker C: Have anything? Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think you guys cover that well, as we continue down the objections list. Unless. Will you got something else? [00:23:29] Speaker B: No, I was just going to let you go first on this one. So I was going to introduce this one. Sure. Since you didn't really get to answer the last one. But we have acts, chapter 18, everybody typically brings this one up next, and that is, well, what about Priscilla? You have Aquila, and you have Priscilla, the husband and the wife duo here, who, they're mentioned several times, very faithful christian couple. But in acts 18, I'll just read 24 through 26, a certain jew named Apollos, born of Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John, so he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. So obviously there, Priscilla is taking a leading role in teaching and studying with apollos here. So obviously, Joe, that means that women, now that the New Testament has come, they can take leadership roles in that sense because of Priscilla. What would you say to that? [00:24:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I think people make a large leap here in saying, well, she's listed first, therefore she led the discussion. That's how it goes. We don't know if Aquila was know, and she's the sign language. We don't know. We really don't know to put her first as a husband wife team. They went and were talking with apollos. [00:24:50] Speaker B: In case anybody's wondering, Priscilla is mentioned first in verse 18, by the way, just to clarify that. [00:24:56] Speaker C: So I think that's one of the main reasons why they say that is like, oh, Priscilla is the one leading this discussion, potentially, but I don't really see that. And the other thing is, once again, what does that prove? Yes, women can study the Bible, I think, with a non Christian or another man, woman can. But by and large, I do believe that a woman should allow a man to do that role, and she's not doing it alone. Her husband is there, her husband is helping, and just because her name is listed first, we don't know exactly why that is. But to make an, it's a broad assumption, correct? You're taking an assumption and trying to build an entire case off of it. To me, that's weak. That's weak when we have so many things pointing to the opposite. You're going to have to make that big of a stretch or take that big of a leap to try to make your point. Usually that doesn't go well. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you don't interpret the same thing with Deborah. You don't interpret the exception as the rule, like the normative thing. You have a normative thing. And the other thing is, I was looking it up because Paul mentions them in kind of the sign offs and a few letters. In two Timothy, he says Prisca and Aquila. Prisca, short for Priscilla. So he lists her first. In Romans 16 three greet priscilla and Aquila. And so in times where it's not talking about teaching, but just, like, listing them by name, he lists her name first. So you don't know why? I don't know. It's just a weird thing when it's just purely relational. But then in one corinthians 1619, when Paul talks about the church that is in their house, he says, aquila and Priscilla. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord with the church that is in their house. And so when it's talking about them as hosts of a church, Aquila is listed first, which I think is interesting. Nobody ever brings that one know, even though she's listed first a few other times, relationally. And so I think it's just reading way too much into that. [00:26:47] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and when you do the scripture wars thing, what about Equila and Priscilla? Okay, fit that into the context of everything else that we see Paul talk about. First Timothy two and one Corinthians 14. There has to be a biblical answer, a biblical solution to this. If your position is, well, Priscilla being mentioned first clearly means that she was the leading role. Okay, well, then how does that go with what Paul teaches in one Timothy two and one corinthians 14? And so you have to come to the conclusion, no, those two things both can't be correct. And like you all are saying, there is just kind of a stretch, a broad assumption that takes place there. All right, let's move on to Romans 16, where we have Phoebe, who, I don't know, this one, other than Deborah, I guess, might be the one that people bring up the most, I would say, at least in the discussions that I've had with people. Romans 16, verse one, I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is a servant of the church in Centrea. I looked it up last night. New King James, ESV, New american standard, ASV. Few of the other pretty solid translations all have servant. It is the Niv and the new living translation that actually has the word deacon for Phoebe, and then the RSV has the word deaconess for Phoebe. Should tell you something about which translation you need to use, but we can save that discussion for another day. The greek word, though, is dioconos. And so I think that's where a lot of people get the idea that, oh, Phoebe. Phoebe was a deacon. Phoebe was a woman who was holding a leadership position of a deacon or deaconess in the church. And so what you do see actually, is a lot of the more progressive churches these days are installing women as deaconesses, putting them in charge of various things and putting them under that role. And I think most of them would probably appeal here to Romans 16, verse one, and say, well, see, phoebe was therefore we have justification for doing that here, I guess. Jack, if you want to go first on this one, what are your thoughts on this one? [00:28:50] Speaker A: It's just, again, another case of too far. I mean, you go to the deacon qualifications, and, yeah, it gives qualifications for women in that section. But he doesn't say deaconesses. It's a very generic term. Means servant, means minister. I mean, it's translated a few different ways. So again, you have to go to. Okay, what outlines are we given for that elsewhere? I mean, why could a woman not have been chosen as one of the deacons in act six? Why wasn't she? She could have been. Why wasn't she? It's entirely possible for a woman to be a servant and not a deacon. And we kind of get a little weird about offices or job titles or whatever else. Official roles, deacon, elder, preacher, minister, or whatever else. And people say, well, every Christian is a minister. Yeah, but there's also a sense in which you've got the minister. Every Christian is a servant. Yes, they are. Deacon means servant. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Have some deacons. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Right. And so by which you can say, look, if we're using the greek dioconos just to mean servant, all three of us are dioconoe, whatever the. I'm not a greek expert. I'm probably using the wrong ending there. Deacons, diocon, whatever. All three of us are in the generic sense. We're not in the official sense. And I have no problem saying she was in the generic sense. Somebody who was serving the church there to extrapolate that to. Well, that means you can see got this official role. I don't know about that. [00:30:23] Speaker B: You can see how, especially if somebody's using the new living translation or the new international version or the RSV or whatever, this one would be a stumbling block. Like, oh, there was a female deacon. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:34] Speaker B: There's clearly a woman here who was serving that deacon role. Again, I kind of referenced a second ago, going to the greek and making sure that you have an accurate translation of the Bible is a pretty important thing here. But, Joe, did you have any thoughts? [00:30:48] Speaker C: No, I think that's the same as verse seven. When it talks about Junius, which is feminine, you may look at it and say, okay, Junius, is that. Does that have to be a woman? Yeah, it's in the feminine. It's a woman. It talks about her being an apostle. Well, apostle is just one know we have the apostles of. [00:31:06] Speaker B: I'm curious what your translation says, because mine just says, greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who. [00:31:15] Speaker C: Are outstanding among the apostles. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Some say outstanding among the apostles. Some will say well known among the apostles, which seems to indicate. Yeah, the apostles know who they are, but others will take that as well. Everybody knows they're apostles. Yeah. [00:31:31] Speaker C: Even so, though, I don't know that, even if that was the reading, that doesn't pose a challenge to me, because talks about that being the apostle. It also talks about. And there's kind of debate in this. I think it's Galatians one, Colossians one, or Galatians one, talking about James being an apostle. James brother Jesus being an apostle. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Barnabas is called an apostle. [00:31:49] Speaker C: Barnabas is called apostle. That's right. So was he actually chosen? Well, he didn't walk with Jesus. So Barnabas couldn't have been an apostle in the traditional sense of what an apostle had to go through to be considered one of the twelve or 13, I guess, with Paul and Matthias after Judas. So there were specific instructions as to how somebody was to become an apostle, and seeing Jesus and everything else which Paul had on the road right to Damascus. So they didn't fit those descriptions. Meaning I would take the traditional, this is the $0.01, somebody who know potentially going out and spreading the word of God. And it could be in a priscilla aquila type fashion here, where those two people are going out as a husband, wife. We don't know. We don't know. But that could be the other reading, other than maybe they just are known by the apostles. [00:32:31] Speaker B: That's what I was going to say. Jack, I don't know how much you just said. You're not a greek scholar, and here I am about to ask you about the Greek. But with my translation, new King James saying, who are of note among the apostles? Seems pretty clear. That's simply talking about the apostles. Know who they are. They are of note among them. I didn't know if the Greek has any something that would lean more towards the reading of that. They are known as apostles, essentially, I guess, is the other side, which way does the greek kind of reflect? [00:33:00] Speaker A: Well, that's kind of the thing is it could be either one. [00:33:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:04] Speaker A: As far as the object and all the grammar that goes into that. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:33:07] Speaker A: It could be taken either way. But again, boy, it's really weird that you've got these apostles who are not called in it, because the other thing is you look at what it takes to get Matthias added as an apostle, and you get to the point, it's like, well, we're just naming everybody apostles now. We're just handing out this title. There's exclusively twelve of these people. And Paul, extraordinary circumstances. He gets the gospel straight from Jesus and everything that he claims, and he defends his apostleship there in two corinthians and all that. And the apostle to the Gentiles, that in itself is an important thing, that he's got his own specific apostolic role. But then we're just, again, like, okay, well, just anybody gets to be an apostle. Is that really what we want to say here? [00:33:54] Speaker B: Right. As you read Romans 16, too, Paul is shouting out quite a few females. He shouts out Phoebe, obviously, he's got Priscilla there. He's got Mary in verse six. And then you get to Junia. He's simply calling out, essentially, those who labor for the Lord, those who are servants, those who fellow laborers or whatever. To kind of make that jump and assume, oh, that means they definitely had a leadership role, is once again to Joe's point, to start the episode, making it an all or nothing proposition. If you want to be a servant of the Lord, you have to lead, or that's basically the only option you have. No, you can be a servant, you can be a laborer without taking some kind of leadership role. And I was just know, as you consider every single objection we just looked at Deborah, Priscilla, Phoebe, and Junia. Take a step back for a second. Let's say you are somebody who know, maybe those have some merit as to why women should lead. Look at the amount of hoops you kind of mentally have to jump through. Look at how big of a stretch you have to make, how large of an assumption you have to get with every last one of those. There's not one of those where it's like, oh, yeah, slam dunk. That kind of defeats. [00:35:06] Speaker A: If you read this just right, you might be able to extract this out of. [00:35:09] Speaker B: It went just hard enough. [00:35:11] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:35:12] Speaker B: And so I think that speaks for itself. Guys, we have a lot to get to and know half an hour in, so I'm going to keep us rolling unless you guys have anything else to bring up about kind of those standard objections? I think we covered those fairly well. So the next question, Jack is the one who made sure that we had this on the episode. I think it's a great inclusion here. What about silent participation for women? Okay, so we agree that they can't get up and lead a song. We agree that they can't get up and preach. They can't lead a prayer. Right. All those things. What about passing the Lord's supper trays? I put a few others on here. What about being an usher? The person who walks the visitors to their seat, never says a word. You could argue, doesn't even really get in front of the congregation, but walks the people to their seat. What about working in the sound booth? Certainly not a quote unquote, in front of the congregation. Leadership role. They're not speaking in worship. What about those? I think this is something that, again, a lot of congregations, in order to be more inclusive, maybe they go this route of having the woman pass the Lord's supper trays. Never say anything, but they pass the Lord's supper trays. Those other roles are just kind of some other silent, participatory roles that I thought of. But what would you guys say to these? [00:36:26] Speaker C: For what purpose? That's what I would ask. For what purpose? Why do we do that? And so many times it's pushing the envelope. Well, we just felt that. We just wanted to let them know that they're a part. Okay, once again, you missed the rest of the part that they can play in an attempt to get them up in front of the congregation. There is still a leadership, in my opinion, there's still a leadership element to passing out the Lord's supper. Trace, there's still a leadership element in passing out the basket. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Well, because the Timothy passage says, teach or have authority over a man. And somebody say, well, what authority do they have? I don't know. Why are they standing up front? And they'll say, well, she passes the tray when it goes down the Pew. You don't see the difference here? I don't know. [00:37:09] Speaker C: Well, and again, we don't do this for visitors, but imagine a visitor coming in and a visitor sees that. It's like, well, next week she might be just leading it. Maybe this week she's just passing. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Well, what almost always happens with these and again, people, we can say trajectory doesn't mean that one step in a certain direction is wrong. Like, well, we can debate that all day long, but the trajectory is almost always, well, we can let them do this. Well, boy, it's awful mean that we're just not letting them do the next thing. Well, she could read this because some say, well, she could read the scripture because that's not her own word. So we'll get up and have her do the scripture reading. Well, we'll get up and have her do this. Or it's always one step after another. Well, because, boy, it's mean that we don't let them pass the trays. But then it's like, well, then they're only in a servant role where they're not allowed to talk. They're only like, basically ushers or passing the trays. We're just making them go around and serve everybody. Oh, this is just feminine. This is misogyny. Yeah, we're back to the 1950s, where the women are passing out the food, and that's all they're good for, but we got to let them do something else. Yeah, exactly. [00:38:10] Speaker C: Where's it at? [00:38:10] Speaker A: One more step. One more step. Yeah. [00:38:12] Speaker B: I've always gone to for the Lord's supper thing, like, common sense tells you that's still an authority position. You are in front of the congregation, you are up there, you're in a service role, but it's one where there still seems to be an authority there. And again, to Jack's point about the, you can clearly see the difference between somebody sitting in a pew passing it down versus somebody who is standing up where everybody can see them regardless of if they're speaking or not. I firmly see that that is still an authority position. [00:38:43] Speaker C: Okay, so what about the sound booth? You're in the back, you're not standing up. Nobody's necessarily seeing you. You mentioned the sound booth. Let's go to that one. How do you feel about a woman being back there, manning the sound booth or helping? And is there a distinction between manning it and kind of manning, between leading woman. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Leading it. [00:39:02] Speaker B: Womaning it? [00:39:02] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Leading that versus just helping. Let's say it's a woman and her dad. [00:39:09] Speaker B: Let me think out loud here, because I don't want to come down. The one thing I will say is I don't necessarily see that one as an authority position like I do for the Lord's supper tray passing. So I'll start there. That I do see a distinction there, but I guess you could still argue that it's an authority position. I don't know. What do you guys have to say on that one? I think it's still pushing the envelope, but go ahead. Sorry. [00:39:33] Speaker A: I just think there's a lot of technical stuff that goes into putting on an assembled worship service, because then we can extrapolate this to so many things. Well, can she put the crackers and the juice in the trays? I'm not trying to be flipping by calling it that, but I mean, like, in the kitchen, you get the stuff out and you put the Lord's supper stuff together. Can she count the money afterwards? Can she go and collect the visitor cards or whatever else? All of these things that are outside of the purview of actual worship? I don't think that's what the topics we're talking about really are. Where you're introducing confusion, you're introducing. Well, let's just tiptoe in this direction, see how it feels kind of thing. That's just me as big of a problem with it. [00:40:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Like I said, there's a lot of things, and I know it's during worship, somebody said, well, it's between the amens and preparing the Lord's supper is before all that. But I don't know. I think that's kind of. [00:40:31] Speaker B: I do see a difference as well. [00:40:33] Speaker C: Yeah, Joe, I do, too, man. It's a tough one, because even when you put this on, the outline, will, I don't know fully where I've fallen. There's a part of me internally, and we can't just go off of that gut feeling. There's a part of me that's like. I don't know. [00:40:46] Speaker B: But then you talk about it. [00:40:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it makes you a little uncomfortable, but where is that coming from? We don't just. Again, and this is. Look, we of all people, we want to think deeper about it. And there is a large swath of the church that kind of operates that way. Like it just doesn't feel right. Just because it doesn't feel right to you doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong. At the same time, I do want to know, maybe explore that a little more internally for me. Where does that come from? Because I think you're right, Jack. It's not a leadership position. You are in the back. Like, what I would worry about with a woman stepping up in front of the congregation is just that she's stepping up in front of the congregation whether to pass or whatever else. Pass the know for this. You're in the back. Maybe she has technical skills in that way and she can help serve the church. I look at it, like I said, the feeling feels like maybe not, but I look at it logically and say, it's her using maybe skills that she has to help the church in a way that's not a leadership position and in that way. Okay, I think that's okay. To the rest of your points as well. [00:41:40] Speaker A: I'm going to make a meta point before we move on to the next r1 quick. [00:41:43] Speaker C: Sure. [00:41:44] Speaker A: You might be listening, going, man, this is really stupid. This is like getting seriously in the weeds with all this stuff. Or man, these guys are stupid. The conclusions they're coming to are ridiculous. This is what we're trying to do with this podcast is like real life. People have these questions and they don't ever get asked. [00:42:00] Speaker B: I've had these conversations answered. [00:42:02] Speaker A: Yeah, ask or answer, they don't have the. And it would be the easiest thing in the world to get on here and just say the generic things that everybody can. Amen. We are risking looking and sounding stupid to have the discussions that people are wondering about. And so that's. Think deeper. You might think, well, you don't think very deep. Okay, well, we're trying, I mean deeper, deeper than maybe we did last week or something. But again, I'm kind of listening to this and there's a sense of like, man, this is kind of ridiculous. And there's another sense like, but it matters. These are real things that we actually do have to process and things that people are wondered about and to pretend. [00:42:34] Speaker B: They don't exist is ridiculous. Right? [00:42:36] Speaker A: And again, like I said, the easiest thing in the world would be to pretend it doesn't exist and just keep it on the level that everybody can amen and pat you on the back. Well, we might look like idiots, but I mean, that's what you got to risk to have these discussions. So just that meta point, great point of why we kind of get in the weeds with these things, because somebody has to. I mean, that's what we're trying to do. So carry on. [00:42:57] Speaker C: Let's continue down this. That's a sound of participation, but the other currently accepted roles for women that I think this kind of goes into this work in the sound booth, things like that. I'm going to start backwards on our outline here. I'm curious, fellas, how do we feel about a female youth intern? So I saw this more and more. Go for it. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Sorry, I was just going to say, I saw this a lot in Alabama actually, when we did not have one at Decatur, but a lot of the other congregations around would know a male and a female that were going to some christian school would come and intern for the summer as youth interns. Essentially that would kind of work for the youth minister and put on stuff. I got to be honest, I'm not super comfortable with that. And I think it's for the reason that we just talked about. It's a leadership role. I mean, it really is, at least from every experience that I had. Again, I met several of them when I was in Alabama. Really good people, solid christians, it seemed like. But I always struggle with it because call it what you want. If the female is working with the male to put on events and to schedule things, and you could even say, well, she's just teaching the girls class or whatever. From everything I've seen, the male and the female were working together in a kind of a leadership role. Yeah, that doesn't seem right to me. That seems like you're. Because the other thing is female youth intern. Okay, so what is she going to be in ten years? Is she going to be a female youth minister? [00:44:27] Speaker A: What do you graduate from that unto. Yeah. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Right. Is she going to be a female preacher? Well, I hope not. And so I don't see the point in it. And I just think it's kind of asking for us. It's a step in the wrong direction that's kind of asking for trouble later on. I guess an okay version of it could be, essentially, you have somebody come in. All she does is really try to connect with the girls of the youth group or whatever. But even then, I don't love that idea. So I don't know. I'm not a big fan of it, but it just seems like they're taking a leadership position that they don't have the authority to take. [00:45:01] Speaker C: I would play devil's advocate, though. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Oh, go ahead. [00:45:04] Speaker C: Sorry, just to play devil's advocate, you could look at it and say, okay, but you have men that come in, we're going to be doing a seminar. You and I are doing the gym seminar. So that's for the boys. Why can't we have something for the girls? That's what you always hear, is, look, we have the youth minister, and he's over everybody, but he really connects with the boys more. We need somebody to connect with the girls because the youth minister just doesn't. He's a. He doesn't really have the same. Speak to the same problems. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Think about what you would have to do with that. As the congregation that's announcing who's coming. Hey, we've got these two interns coming. We've got so and so who's a male and so and so who's a woman. Well, what have you just told your congregation they're getting a woman that is coming in to take some kind of authority leadership position, whether we like it or not? I agree with you, joe. Again, I think, let's say somebody did it internally where they asked, hey, you, as a 27 year old female, could you maybe teach a girls class or work with the girls on XYZ? I'm more comfortable with that. As opposed to, again, announcing to the congregation, posting it on Facebook, whatever. We've got these two young people coming. One's a guy, one's a girl. They're going to be taking some kind of role. Hold up, hold up. You see what saying, like, that's where. [00:46:08] Speaker C: I. Oh, I definitely see it. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Well, I think it's kind of, well, we want to help young people with college, summer internships or whatever, give them experience, and it helps whether college courses or whatever. And we're doing it for our guys. We might as well do it for our girls. Like, well, no, we're not that kind of organization. Sorry, we don't have a role for you. And creating one in the name of equality, egalitarianism, why do we care about that? We don't care about that. We care about getting it right. And again, equal value, not equal purpose and pretending equal. Yeah, because there's a lot of other considerations, like the Billy Graham rule, which I think is a very solid thing, not working one on one with women. You introduce the possibility of that thing. And, Joe, to your point about, well, we need somebody to relate to our younger girls. [00:46:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:53] Speaker A: Maybe we should still, instead of going that direction, we should rethink the thing where we hire a 23 year old boy to hang out with teenage girls and try and minister to him. [00:47:03] Speaker B: That hasn't let us, especially unmarried. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, hey, maybe we're going the wrong direction in solving this problem. I would say. [00:47:14] Speaker B: All right, go ahead. Let's roll that into. Joe, I don't know if you wanted to add on. No, you're good. [00:47:19] Speaker C: I was going to say the exact same thing about youth. Older. Teaching the younger, hiring a 19 year old youth minister to connect with 18 year old girls. Like, I just don't see that in scripture. That goes against Titus, too. But yes, to your point, will, I want to roll that in, because that is kind of a. Okay, well, and I don't know, were you going to go with the children's ministry or are you going to. [00:47:37] Speaker B: I was going to go with the children's ministry. I was going to keep going in reverse order here. What about children's ministers. You do see that a good bit. And I looked up a couple of congregations last night, churches of Christ, that I know to be fairly solid. They have their ministers, pulpit minister, college minister, outreach minister, whatever. And down there at the bottom it says children's minister and it's a female. And I know of some congregations that they don't have the woman on the website as a part of the ministry staff or whatever, but essentially that's what she does. She runs the children's classes, ministry, whatever. Yeah. How do we feel about that one? I think I'm just going to go ahead and plant my flag. If you're putting a woman on your staff section of your leadership team, church website of your leadership team, step back and reevaluate. Just consider what kind of message are you sending if you're saying, yeah, we don't permit a woman to speak or to have authority over a man or to be in a leadership position. Oh, by the way, here she is on our church website is in a ministry like it literally says children's minister. Consider the mixed messages that you're sending. [00:48:49] Speaker C: It's just kids. It's just kids. It's like, okay, I'm sorry, who does the Bible speak to in Ephesians six about who's over the kids? [00:48:55] Speaker A: I think it's a father's role. [00:48:56] Speaker C: So I think the male should be in charge of the kids as well. The youth and the kids all the way up. A male should be the one leading that charge and making sure, because who's going to be the one that is held accountable for that kid's safety or for that kid's salvation, for that kid's choices down the line? The father, the males. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:13] Speaker C: The elders, they're over all this stuff as well. So why would we have a female lead? God's not going to hold her responsible. It's like he's going to hold a man responsible. Why'd you have a woman leading all the kids? Why'd you have a woman taking over that? Well, women are great with kids, things like that. I understand that from a leadership perspective, there still should be a man leading that charge and leading that ministry and passing down the information from the elders that they've decided to help lead the kids. [00:49:38] Speaker A: Yeah. The other thing is the level of supervision that's necessary is you can think, well, three year olds aren't being taught a whole lot of doctrine. Well, maybe not, but as kids grow, they're learning stuff. They're learning important stuff. And, man, a lot of this stuff gets delegated with zero oversight. And it's also the kind of thing an elder isn't going to sit in the fourth grade classroom and listen to a woman teach to check on her doctrine. I mean, there's a lot of assumption, and I know some churches have like a doctrinal questionnaire of like, where are you on all these things? And we're not going to let you teach. I think that's a good thing for elders to insert themselves in the process on that level. But there's a lot of stuff of like, man, this is your job. This is what people are being taught under your roof, under your headship or whatever, just handing that off and saying, well, we'll let this woman train the teachers, we'll let her pick the curriculum, we'll let her do everything, and then she'll just report to us. That's a lot of delegation that I'm not really sure is authorized is wise. I don't know, whatever you want to go with. [00:50:41] Speaker B: I can already see this one and probably the next one not being super popular when they hit people's ears of what you're saying. A man still has to be over the kids stuff. And again, the next one we're going to get into, we are going to end the episode with, okay, so what is a woman's role in the church? We've got quite a few things you want to cover there. And so this is not going to be a. Women can't do this, woman can't do that. Your role is to sit and just worship. But again, I'm going to appeal once again to consider the mixed messages you're sending. Consider the idea that somebody sits and listens to a lesson about men being over the husband being over the wife, men taking leadership role in the church. And then again, they walk past the staff board, on the bulletin board, and there's a picture of a woman leading as a children's minister or whatever. It's just something that I feel like once again is pushing the envelope. It's toeing the line in a direction that doesn't need to go. And yeah, I guess I don't have much else to say on that. I feel like it's pretty obvious to me, but I don't know. [00:51:42] Speaker A: More than anything, it's trying to appease a certain sensibility that we just shouldn't care about. Well, what about this? What are people going to think? We just don't care about that. Again, in this kind of critical theory equity kind of timeline we live in of, well, your church is going to be painted as misogynistic, like man. There's a lot of things that we're going to do biblically that are up until letting them be in the pulpit and be elders. Somebody's going to think that. So let's stop trying to appease people who don't care about what the text says and just stick with, we don't need to do things performatively, I guess, is what I'm saying. So much of this seems performative to make it look like, well, we value our women like, no, we do. We don't have to do this to make that clear. [00:52:25] Speaker B: So I've been dying to ask the next question. I'm going to roll us into this last a. I had a sneaking suspicion that Joe was just chomping at the bit to get to this one. So, Joe, I'm actually going to let you go first here. [00:52:37] Speaker A: It's been a while since a hot take with Joe. [00:52:39] Speaker B: It has been. I just can feel one brimming right now. [00:52:42] Speaker C: Oh, boy. [00:52:43] Speaker B: What about ladies days? Talk about something that is widely accepted. Some of these other things I think are still pretty controversial in some areas. Children's ministers, female youth intern, obviously passing lord Supper trades. A lot of these things are not very widely accepted in the church of Christ. They are some places, some not. Ladies days are pretty well universally accepted in most congregations. They're going to have a men's day, they're going to have a ladies day, maybe a youth ladies day, or whatever. And so I've kind of got two questions here. And again, Joe, if you just want to take the reins and go for it here, but you have the question of, first of all, are they scripturally acceptable? Which again, obviously most congregations believe that they are. But then the second question, which I think is probably the more interesting question, even if they are scripturally acceptable, are they a good idea? Are ladies days a good idea? So I'm going to hand this one over to Joe. [00:53:35] Speaker C: Okay. So I'm going to get out right out in front. Older, teaching the younger. We do see this, as I referenced Titus two, is there a way for the older to teach the younger? Could it be used as such? I suppose I get that as an individual, one on one, you're taking a young person aside, you're having them in your home, things like that. What's my problem? Lady days. Ladies days, as you've talked about. Clearly, I have problems with it. I do think it's woman taking a leadership position. Well, it's just among women. Yeah, but she's taking an authority, a scripturally authoritative approach to something. Who does she fall under? Now, there's a discussion of, okay, if she were to teach false doctrine there, how would we know? And who's over that? Because they're always supposed to be under a head. They're supposed to be under the elders. They're supposed to be under their husbands. They're supposed to be under different members. Right. The daughter is supposed to be under the fathers. Who's the woman at the ladies day supposed to be under? A man can't be present and listen to that. So there is no authoritative man in that position to be able to call that out. You say, well, some other ladies might call it out. We don't know. There's been plenty of ladies days where people have gone off the rails and said all sorts of feminist things that, in my opinion, you hear about this later and you go, what in the world? How did you get to that point? Well, who's there to say otherwise? Women most of the time aren't going to stand up and just go to war over these things. And so you have a woman who really doesn't fall under any particular man. She gleans her authority from who knows where. Well, from scripture, like. Yeah, with her bent to the scripture, she doesn't have to answer her interpretation. Her husband's going to have to answer her interpretation, say, well, it's the same with a man. Yeah, but a man has to answer to God for that. And you say, well, woman has to answer to God. Yeah, but she falls under somebody's authority. And in ladies days they don't. The other problem I have with ladies days, in my opinion, I think a lot of times it's kind of gaslighting, as they say, which is really uplifting. Fantastic. You go, girl. Have I been in a lady's day? I'm going to get flamed for this, man. People are going to shoot me for this. But have I been in ladies days? No. At the same time, look, I've been around enough women and have talked to enough women about what goes on at those ladies days to know it is not exactly the hard hitting stuff, in my opinion. You say, well, a woman can't ever teach scripture. I'm hearing all of these just rattle around in my head as to everybody that's going to try to take a baseball bat to this. I just don't think it's a scripturally good idea to give the woman the reins scripturally to go teach something. And if you do here's the other thing I'd say there needs to be, in my opinion, this is where I believe in head coverings. If you're going to do something like that, I think you need to have a head covering to remember you are under somebody's head. You are underneath. You are not teaching from that position of authority. However, who's there to say otherwise? That's my problem with that. Who's there to say otherwise? If it is a wolf in sheep's clothing, you have no shepherd there to say, whoa, wait, hold on. You can't say those things. The wolf could devour every woman in the church and there's nobody there to say otherwise. So yeah, I do have a problem with those. [00:56:33] Speaker B: I can definitely get behind that last point about the head covering in that instance. Real quick though, Joe, I am going to pigeonhole you and ask, so is your answer no and no? Essentially, is a scripture acceptable? [00:56:44] Speaker C: No. [00:56:44] Speaker B: And then is it a good idea? No. [00:56:47] Speaker C: I don't think we see a large gathering of women anywhere in know where there's no man. Are they a good. [00:56:59] Speaker B: It? I'll let Jack go, which, by the way, I'm going to shout out my mom. She's probably not going to appreciate that. Shout her out, Joe. I think she 100% agrees with you on this one. I have a hard time saying that it's biblically wrong, that again, that people are in sin for doing it and that congregations are sinning. And I always hate to resort to that. But essentially, that's what I'm asking. If I'm saying is it scripturally acceptable? And we say no, then we have to say, yeah, that it's in the same line as instrumental music. Essentially. However, I 100% agree there when you said, and that's why I would answer scripturally acceptable. Yeah, maybe. But is it a good idea? No, I don't think it's a good idea for everything that you mentioned. And I do really love your point about, okay, males are supposed to be the elders. They can't sit in on the ladies days. They can't listen to a recording of the ladies days. Theoretically later on that's still kind of the same thing. So, yeah, who is going to be there to ensure that false teaching is not even necessarily false teaching, but just teaching that is not, I don't know, stuff that should not be taught, I guess slanting certain things a certain way that should not be slanted that way. The women's group, because we've talked about this before, the women's groups on social media and how they're honestly not that great of an idea because everything is. There's not any kind of authority position or anything like that. And so, yeah, I have a hard time getting across the bridge of that. They're scripturally unacceptable, but I can jump over the bridge easily of, yeah, they don't seem to be a good idea to me. The cons outweigh the pros. I do think Titus two is more so. Referring to smaller groups and Will, that's subjective. Yes, I understand. But as you read Titus two, it does not seem to be referring to a public setting where one person is talking to 50 other women. It seems to be more. So. The older women generically are taking the younger women under their wing and kind of almost mentoring them in a way, in a one on one or smaller group setting, I guess. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah, this is going to be another one of those that maybe somebody's listening to. Like, why on earth is this a question? But if you think about it, if we were starting from scratch, somebody said, well, let's do this. And we are the people who, back to the book, everything by authority. Where is the authority for this? Where is the setting for this for a woman teaching as a preacher? And you can say, well, it's just for women. That's okay. [00:59:38] Speaker C: Let them ask their husbands at home. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:40] Speaker A: Well, it's not like you have this thing where the men all died and we got to do something you're specifically creating. And that's one of the things I worry about, is, well, they've got these talents, and we've got to find a way for them to use it. I wrote an article years ago about, boy, I've got these talents, and they just won't let me use it. This is just so unfair. I can't believe God would do, no, no, it's not a woman. It's a man from the tribe of Judah who's not allowed to be a. Like, God sometimes just says, no, you don't get to do that. And where we say, well, okay, I can't do it over here, so let me create a specific venue in which I can bring these things to bear, because the other thing, think we're big advocates for, how much more impactful would it be for one of these wise older women? And I'm not saying it's an either or, but like, if sitting across their kitchen table and having these discussions rather than, all right, I'm going to get up behind the pulpit when none of the men are here and typically, it's. [01:00:33] Speaker B: Those leadership lectureship, ladies day things that are viewed as, oh, we have that so we don't need to do the other. That's a problem. You can't have that as the fill in for the across the kitchen table stuff. I think a lot of women see it, like, well, we have ladies days. [01:00:47] Speaker A: Well, I think just in general, we kind of think more premium preaching will fix all of our problems. Well, we've got more of it than ever, and that's not happening. I was just asking my conclusion. It would just be that, like, what justification do we have for it? [01:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah, let me get on here really. [01:01:06] Speaker C: Fast, because we're going to get into this. I'm not saying you're going to hell. [01:01:08] Speaker B: If you have a ladies day. [01:01:09] Speaker C: Okay. I do think there is a conscience. I think there's a little bit of. [01:01:13] Speaker B: A curve here of grading Joe's like, I will never attend a ladies day. That's good, Joe. [01:01:20] Speaker C: My conscience is against it. [01:01:21] Speaker A: I don't know about you guys boycotts Disney and ladies day. So we're up to number two here. [01:01:26] Speaker C: There you go. But, yeah, no, I'm not sending you to hell if you attend a ladies day. But I would say strongly. Think about it is all I'm looking for. Do I think it's authorized in scripture? No. Do I send people help or no? Let's get into will, which is what you're trying to get to. What is a woman's role in the church? And I don't want to rush this at the same time, we've been going for a long time, so let's just jump right into it. I think we've referenced this a bunch. Titus two is a really good place to start, because I think it has everything to do with one of the biggest roles I think women can have is in mentoring or in being mentored. And specifically to what end? Well, being mentored in the christian walk as to how to live as a Christian, how to be christlike, and also how to be keepers at home, how to love your husbands, how to take care of your kids. Like, women have the ability to really help one another and to answer specific questions, and women want to get up in the pulpit, and yet we have very few older women who want to do this, who want to actually just sit down across the kitchen table and say, here's where I went wrong. Here's what I think I did. Well, here's the fruits that have been borne out through this. We tried this. We tried that. I really wish I would have made this choice that was different, and this really was the effect. How much would that benefit somebody like my wife, who's 25 years old, how much would that benefit her to have somebody and older? And she does have some of those shout out sissy, shout out mom. And she's got other people that do this. But still, I mean, that's huge to have somebody in your corner you can sit across the table from. So first things first. There's a lot more that we can get into, but this is the first one I would mention is just the Titus two. The mentorship of being mentored and mentoring other young women. Start there. If you're looking for something or for. [01:02:57] Speaker B: A way to help the church and use Titus, like, mentor them about what? I don't know. Use what Titus two talks about, like teaching them to be discreet, chase homemakers to love their husbands, love their children. These are things that young women, young ladies need to be taught how to do. And unfortunately, the sad piece of it is maybe a lot of their mothers aren't doing it. And so I do think that's where the older, wiser women in the church, their role is not to just come sit on a pew and worship, maybe teach a kids class and go home, man. Look around. And we always think, well, the teenagers and I think that's important. But if you're 60 years old, what about the 30 year old woman who's got three kids and is trying to figure out how to keep them faithful and how to support her husband, who works a lot and all these things that, I don't know, I feel like, and this is a different soapbox. Women resort to the social media Facebook groups because a lot of this in person church mentorship, woman to woman, doesn't happen. And so I can get on my soapbox all day long and say, I don't think women need to be going to these women's groups with people that live states away that they're never going to talk to, and it's just kind of a gaslighting circuit of, you go, girl. And, oh, my goodness, you're really not as bad. You think all these things that I see as a problem with the women's Facebook groups. Yeah, I can say that. But the problem is in most congregations, the older women aren't doing the one on one stuff. And so, yeah, I think this is a great place to start. If you're wondering, what is my role as a woman in the church and work on this titus two stuff, if you're a 65 year old, look for the 30 and the 40 and the 20 year olds. If you're 40 years old, look for the 20 year olds. Let's say you're, you're 28. And not that you need to act like you have everything figured out, but, man, take a 16 year old girl under your wing and then try to bring them up and mentor them in that way. Again, I think so much more of that needs to take place. And I think if it did, there wouldn't be any need for these Facebook groups. There wouldn't be any need for a lot of the maybe even ladies days that we just talked about. Like if the in person out to coffee over the dinner, know, whatever it is was taking place, I don't know. I think a lot of this would be mitigated. Jack. [01:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Just in general, you're taking a supporting role, and again, that seems like you're being trampled or whatever else. This is how society works. I mean, you look how a movie is made. Not everybody is Tom Cruise. And I don't know who's Margot Robbie is the big one right now. Not everybody gets to be know. There are set designers, there's costume designers, there's directors, there's, I mean, just all these people. It doesn't happen without them. Football team, the offensive know, they take a beating in there, but things don't happen without them. I mean, you can use this illustration in so many ways. Well, the same with the church. Just because you're not the headliner, just because there's not standing in front of people on Sundays, the women behind their elders. You look at the proverbs 31 woman for all the great things that she has, and it says her husband is known in the gates. It's an interesting thing because of what everything she's doing on the home front, he's able to go out and make an impact on the civic, the polis front. And then he comes home and praises her and it's like, look, you're incredible. This is all, you're holding this all together. Thank you. And blesses her children, rise up and call her blessed. I'm paraphrasing here, but the supporting role, take that and want to live that out because again, military movies, football team, whatever illustration you want to use, everybody knows the unsung hero. Everybody knows, like, the people who are on the front lines, they know I am nothing without this person backing me up. [01:06:28] Speaker C: I could not do that without you. [01:06:30] Speaker A: Right. And so the elder, every elder has a good wife behind them. That's why I think one of the reasons why husband and one wife ministers. I've been a minister who was single. I've been a minister who came home to a wife after getting blasted by members and things like that. It's just so much better. I mean, it is so much better to have that companion, that support that person who is doing the behind the scenes, thankless job and getting it done and, oh, man, it's thankless. Therefore, we should go find a job that gets thanks. No, the right people will praise you. The right people are going to see it. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. All this stuff. Like it matters. You're behind the scenes, but you make a difference. [01:07:03] Speaker C: So there are other various ways I think that you can serve the church outside of worship. One of the great ones, I think, is organizing meals for members. Women are fantastic. We got a lot of fantastic cooks. I think they can organize meals for members and really look to see and yeah, you may say a man going back to act six, a man is over the ministry itself. Maybe he's the deacon for it, but women are the ones that are going to be doing the cooking, the baking, things like that. So I think you can help in that area. I would throw out another one I mentioned earlier about the men being over, maybe the whole idea of teaching kids classes, but I think women can teach kids classes. They connect with the kids. Yes, they would answer to the man and he needs to know what they're teaching and whatnot. But I think women can teach kids classes. I think that would be another really good way to serve. What other ones fellas do we have? [01:07:46] Speaker A: I think hospitality is at the center of everything. Will's got to go. So you want to get your last words in? [01:07:51] Speaker B: No, no, go ahead. I got a couple more minutes so you can hospitality and I'll get to the last one. [01:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think let's emphasize that as a central role. That can make a big difference and just utilize that. The more you utilize that, the more you're going to see. Wow, this really makes a difference. [01:08:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:05] Speaker B: So the last thing that I had on the list, we always talk about our masculinity. Feminine episodes do very well. People want to know what is my role? Husband, wife and Joe Jack. I guess all three of us, we've made the point before. The man was created to have dominion, to rule the wife. The woman was created to really kind of aid the man on his mission to be that, help meet for him in that. I don't know if you all agree with this. I see kind of a similarity here with the church with men. God created and designed men to lead in the church, to lead the church on its mission. What is the mission of the church? And you get out all kinds of things. The benevolence, edification, evangelism, education, making sure the reign of Christ is ruling over everybody in all areas of life. What is the woman's role? To aid the church on that mission. Not to lead the church on that mission, but to aid in the church accomplishing that mission through whatever form that takes. Again, as you consider all those things, benevolence and edification and evangelism and education, they're not authorized to lead in any of those. They absolutely have a role, aiding in those different missions and roles and serving in various ways. And Joe, you made the point to start the episode, I think is the perfect way to bring it full circle. Leading is not everything. We need leaders. Absolutely. And God has authorized men to do so. But to act like it's an all or nothing proposition, well, either you lead or you're just kind of a loser who does nothing. That is not the case. Even if you're a man listening to this and you're not qualified to be an elder or you're not talented as a preacher, don't think that your role is to just sit in a pew and basically do nothing. There are a lot of ways you can aid the church, and there's a lot of ways you can serve in all these various categories. And man, do I ever think that's what ephesians 416 is talking about, what every joint supplies with all these things? In the mission of the church, there are so many different ways men, women can serve and can aid in that mission. Men taking the leadership roles and women taking the supporting role again, just like in a marriage. That's what I see. What are your thoughts on that before we wrap up? [01:10:09] Speaker C: I love it. Those get well cards we missed. You wish you were worship. The edification you talk about, the encouragement. [01:10:16] Speaker B: The back people and checking in on them. [01:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, calling people. Yeah, these are good for guys and girls both to be able to do. But I think on the encouragement and the things that you're naturally good at, the nurturing people, the building up the preacher, not in a flirtatious way, but building up the preacher and praying for the elders. And there's so many things on the back end that a woman could do. I think to your point, will, to really aid the work of the church. There's so much more. So here's what we're going to do is we are way over time. We are going to push some things to the deep end. We're going to have a few more things in the deep end that I think women can do. Real quick. [01:10:49] Speaker B: I was going to try to hopefully maybe get some people interested in subscribing to focus. Plus, we've had a good discussion before about should women be allowed to talk in class. I think that's actually one the three of us kind of disagree on. And so we are going to cover that in the deep end. For all of you who are subscribers, for those of you who are going to get access to that, that's going to be a fun one. That's going to be fun. [01:11:07] Speaker C: Here's the other one that I'm going to try to get to. We may have to have a long, deep end because this is not even the questions that we'll get. I'm sure I want to cover 1st 70 215. What does it mean for women to be preserved or saved through the bearing of children? I think that is a fantastic discussion, very interesting and I would love for everybody's thoughts on it. So subscribe to focus. Plus, we're going to do that. We're going to give some other ideas as to what women can do. Practically speaking, I think we covered a lot of them, but I think if we were to sit here a little bit more, we have before, we're just running out of time to go down the list of some things we'll try to provide, maybe a list, something we can post to go along with it for, is that you can get to just help the work of the church. So, fellas, we're going to wrap off there or wrap up there and sign off. Any other questions? Thoughts? Comments? All right. Thank you for listening. Thanks for going along with us. And we will talk to you again sooner.