When You Don’t Have the “Perfect Church”

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Will Hare here, joined by Joe Wilkie. Jack Wilkie. This is episode 248, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, meaning we are two episodes away from quite the landmark episode, episode 250. We were talking about last night, what we are planning for. We always try to do something a little bit different, maybe a little bit more fun, a little bit more, I don't know, just have a little bit more magnitude to the episode anytime we hit an episode, a landmark episode like that. And so stay tuned. Obviously that'll be in two weeks that we'll have a special edition, episode 250. We appreciate everybody who's listening, who continues to listen. If you've been here since episode one, of course, we greatly appreciate you, but we appreciate any new listeners as well. If you are a new listener, we would encourage you to subscribe on all your platforms. Apple podcasts, if you're a YouTube listener. If you're a Spotify listener, hit the subscribe button. Leave us a rating, review, anything. All those things do go a long way to support and to help. So we really do appreciate that. Guys, if we got nothing else to, to kind of promote before we get started, then I'm going to go ahead and kind of intro the episode here. We talk a lot about the church. We talk a lot about ways the church can improve, ways the church should improve. In fact, we have been kind of critiqued before on this podcast that we are too critical of the church, that we almost. That our standards are too high for the church and that all we focus on is what the church can do better instead of focusing on what the church does well at what we're talking about today. It kind of hits on all of those points. It kind of is, you know, envelops all of those points. And that is idealism versus realism in the church. We talk a lot on this podcast about the ideal. What should the church be ideally? Jack wrote a book, goodness, 10 years ago now, getting close to it on, you know, ideally, what should the church look like if it were reset church with his church reset book again, we spend time talking about elders, deacons, families, parents, Ideally, what should the church. Church look like? One of the things that we were, you know, kind of discussing off air and obviously we're getting to this episode is, okay, how does that, how do we, you know, relate that to, okay, what is realistic, though, about the church? Yeah, idealism is great. I think having things to shoot for, strive for is great. And I think we should continue to talk about those things. But there's a level of realism that also, I think, that we think must be brought into the discussion about, okay, yeah, it'd be great if the church was this, but it's not. So, yeah, let's push for it. But what do we do? While it's not. What's the kind of realistic side of things? And so I know that might seem like a little bit of a convoluted topic. We've got some interesting questions to get into some different angles of it. If you're somebody who's listening, who. Maybe you've had frustration with your church before. Maybe there's, you know, just, I don't know, burnout about, you know, certain things, you know, poor preaching or just stuff like that. This is the episode for you where we're going to talk about, you know, how much should you pursue the ideal as opposed to maybe settle for what is actually realistic. So, Jack, I'll give it to you. I think this was kind of originally your brainchild of an episode. So what thoughts do you have as we get started? [00:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I've worried for some time that we, with what I write, with what we do on the show here that we've created or we've led, we fed maybe discontentment in the church of people where they are and they see things and go, man, yeah, I'll write an article. We'll do an episode. They're like, yeah, the church should be that way, but it's not here. We should be closer. We should do more. We should. Whatever the case may be, we should take it more seriously. And then I go to church on Sunday and the singing's weak, or everyone shows up dressed in pajamas or whatever the case may be in your particular situation, or the elders are just not engaged, there's any number of problems. And then they'll, you know, that happens on Sunday. Then Monday, they get their Think Deeper episode in the feed and they get another reason to think, yeah, my church doesn't do that either. Yeah, it would be better if we did that, but we don't. And then you just get mad with where you are. And to Will's point, what he said there about of striving for something but also living where you are is what we want to talk about on this one. Because I don't think the conclusion is stop talking about ways the church can be better. I think we have to figure out what do we do in the meantime when it's not, and love the people around us, be content, be Happy each Sunday and not go home each Sunday going, oh, man. Or just wake up every Sunday morning like, I gotta go back there again and. Or start church hopping, looking for the perfect church. Those kinds of things can happen if we're not careful. And I don't want to feed that. I still want to be able to talk about ways we can be better without feeding an idealism that keeps you from really engaging the people around you. I think those are good intros. I had been with Jack on this. He and I have been talking about this. We talk about this at the gym a lot, actually, in the mornings. Like, are we helping? Are we helping? We talked a little bit about our own personal lives on. On the podcast before. This is something all of us, I think, have grappled with over the last few years of, you know, you pursue the ideal, you pursue. When all three of us were together, you're pursuing the ideal, pursuing things. And, you know, for. For plenty of other reasons, it just didn't work. And that's been on my mind, which is like, did God intend for us to pursue the ideal or was he aware of that? And we want to get into that question a little bit later. But that's kind of what's been on my mind is like, I think we look at it as, okay, the perfect church exists. The Acts 2 church. It's out there. It happened before. We're trying to bring that back. And I look at it like there are a million and one factors that made that incredibly special and something that I don't think any of us will necessarily fully experience in this life. And because of that, we're longing for something that happened before. It would be like going back to the 1800s. Man, I long for the days and the horse and, you know, horse and buggy. Like, we just. Society's not in a place where we can necessarily go back to that, so we can take those principles, we can go back to a lot of those things. But the idealism of what we see in Acts 2:42 through 47, I think we're trying to get back to that, but I also think we can burn ourselves out in our pursuit of something that we don't live in communes anymore, we don't live across, you know, where. Where everybody in the church can just walk to each other's house and. And consistently be there and see each other place all the time. Like, it just. There's a lot of things that, from an idealism point of view, would be great. I don't think we're currently suited for that. So there's just a lot of angles that. That as we're kind of kicking off the. The podcast here that we want to be able to get into. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Well, to me and Jack hit on some of these. There's. There's really only. Let's say you're in this situation where you are kind of dissatisfied with maybe your leadership, maybe the just lack of biblical education, congregation. There's really only a few options at your disposal. Right. Option number one is you can try to go to a different congregation, church hop. Right. And you know, church hopping is a negative, very negative connotation. It's the idea that you basically, you just hop around till you find somewhere that you want people don't. Anybody who leaves a church is not necessarily church hopping, but obviously that is. That is kind of option one. Option two is. And this unfortunately, I would hope, say, or unfortunately, I hope this one stays very much in the minority. There are people that just get burned out on the church completely and their attendance gets real spotty, and they just. Church no longer really becomes a big part of their life. But I think the majority option is option number three, that people. There's one more. [00:07:25] Speaker B: The house church thing, that's a growing one. Sorry, I [00:07:27] Speaker A: throw that in there as well. Sorry, yeah, start a house church, something like that. But the one that I wanted to focus on, because I think it's where a lot of people are, is I'm going to stay, but I'm going to be kind of disgruntled. I'm going to. And maybe not even, you know, take out any frustration, but I'm going to, you know, roll my eyes, you know, certain things, or I'm just kind of just disgruntled employee type of vibe is kind of what I'm going for there. And so again, you could leave, go to a different church. You can just kind of let church phase out of your life, which obviously none of us would recommend. I think what a lot of people do, though, is that, I mean, the house church thing that Jack brought up, but I think what a lot of people do is that third option of, well, I'm going to stay, but I'm going to get, you know, again, I'm going to kind of throw my hands up every time I hear a sermon that I'm not a huge fan of or that doesn't. That doesn't hit me in a certain way. You know, if we don't have the programs, if I don't think we're being evangelistic enough, if I don't think we're doing enough of this, enough of that, and, you know, enough Bible study, then it becomes very disgruntled. And the problem with that kind of mindset essentially, is that it leads to bitterness, it leads to a lack of faith and trust in your leadership. We've explored before, and I think this is probably a good episode to explore again. When should you leave your congregation? When is it a healthier thing for your family? Because I think certainly that applies in certain instances. But yeah, I mean, those are kind of my thoughts on what most people's options are to grapple with. And I guess what we want to explore in this episode. Is there a fifth? Is there another option that may be worth considering? [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah, because part of the issue is the Bible Belt people do have the church hopping option. Other people are, you can't go anywhere else, so you're just kind of stuck where you are in places around the west or around the world, I guess. And so with those people, a we don't want to encourage church hopping. As you said, there's a time and a place where it's necessary, but the best is to make the best of it where you are and realize that things can get better over time. Realize that you can get to a place that even if it's not the perfection, even if it's not all those things, we have to be thinking long term for it rather than going, if I try enough places, I'll find the one that has that old thing about don't join the perfect church because then you'll ruin it or whatever. It won't be perfect anymore. That's a very real thing. But also, times change. Things are shifting. Churches don't look like what they did 20 or 30 years ago. Strategies, church growth, things, movements, all these ideas that come in from books and now podcasts and videos and all that. There is a shift and what it is now might not be what it is in 10 years. And taking the time to develop patience, and I think that's where we'll finish with it, is the discussion about patience. But like, nothing is ready made and nothing's going to be better tomorrow. That's not a reason to throw your hands in the air and get mad at it. Yes, it might not be as good as you want it to be this week and you're going to have to deal with a lot of Sundays where it could be better. That's part of it. This is God sanctifying you through it. And so throw your hands in the air and give up on it all thing I think is obviously the wrong reaction. There's a broader discussion. You see this with happiness. Some of the happiest people in the world are those that have nothing, right? Very, [00:10:46] Speaker A: very little [00:10:46] Speaker B: or they have less. And there's a contentment that goes with it. And are you guys familiar with [00:10:52] Speaker C: Maslow's hierarchy of needs? A lot of people push back on it and such, but you know, the self action [00:10:58] Speaker A: physical is at the bottom, basically. Yeah, safety and hard [00:11:01] Speaker C: needs. Yeah, exactly. The physical. So like safety, you can't really. And the idea is you're never going to hit the self actualization at the top or self esteem until you have the other ones. 11 belongings right in the middle, love and relationships. So the point would be you can start talking about self actualization. Am I actually happy? Do I like my life? What's my purpose? What, you know, what value I have? The ideal life only comes when everything else is in place. And Jack, when you're having to work to [00:11:25] Speaker A: get food on, basically, sorry, if you're having to work to get food on the table, you're not thinking about all that. [00:11:29] Speaker C: Correct? Correct. You don't have time to ask am I happy? It's like, am I fed? Am I, you know, or if I have no roof over my head, do I have a home tonight, a place to sleep? And so I think in our culture, in a church culture, especially in, in the Bible Belt, that's where this really comes into play and why this is so difficult. We can push for the ideal, but I think about my wife's church growing up at Moses Lake in Washington. Once again, as you said, Jack, other parts of the nation, we don't just have a church, throw a rock and hit three churches. Like it just doesn't happen the way that maybe in Tennessee or in the Bible Belt it does. And so they had non institutional brethren worshiping with institutional brethren. And they would take a separate contribution and they would figure out, hey, my stuff's not going to go here. All under one roof in one church, learning how to worship together because you know what, what are our options? I'm not going to drive an hour to the next church. And so we're going to have to make it work. And instead they were very close to one another. Differing beliefs, differing understanding of, you know, where the money might go or certain things about the congregation. And there were points of contention that they were willing to work through because they didn't have the ability to think about those next level things. I think we are, are blessed to be able to think about those things because it tells us all of our basic needs are met, so to speak, on this hierarchy of needs. But I also think that hamstrings is. At a certain point, I think some of the most unhappy people are those that have the most time to think about their happiness. And I think some of the most idealistic people in the church are those that have the luxury of getting to think about the idealism in the church. And I'm talking about us, [00:12:59] Speaker B: right? [00:13:00] Speaker C: You know, I'm talking about where we are, and that's the difficult. So when we think about it, our goal is to have a better church. I think we could all agree with that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with us pushing for certain things with, you know, having a desire for something better, closer community, hungering for deeper Bible study, wish for more involved leadership, things along those lines. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just think they're. That's a luxury that not everybody has. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Well, just briefly. And Jack, you've got a point on the outline a little bit down. I hope I'm not touching on it too much. But I think what I'm about to say, hopefully, relates to exactly what we're talking about. And that is two things. One, there is a certain element of, honestly, pride when it comes to. You look around a congregation and go, let me pick out all the things that are wrong with it. And here's what I would do differently, and here's what I think would be best. To me, that is different than, you know, man, let's push to be better in these different areas. There are some people where pride very much comes in of like, well, here's why I don't like my church. Or here's where my church really displeases me. Or here's where you, like, to some extent, there's a. There's a pride thing that needs to be discussed there. But secondly, I think every. Most everybody. There are some people that don't really have strong opinions on stuff. But for the most part, if you gave everybody the chance to, hey, you can run your congregation as. And we're talking little things, obviously, times of service, you know, what are you gonna do for communion? All those things, right? Programs, evangelism, you can run it exactly the way that you want it, we would all have different. There would all be differences, right? God put elders in charge. Like, I think we need to come to grips with the fact that, yeah, I've got takes on everything, right? All Three of us are probably ones that have takes, maybe more than the average person. But, yeah, I've got takes on what time service should start. I've got takes on what I want my Bible classes to look like. I've got takes on what my. How much evangelism we should be doing and how many. How many programs we should or shouldn't have. Like, yeah, I've got takes on all those things. Guess what? I'm not the elder. And so that is. Which, again, I'm not saying anything that's not kind of blatantly obvious here, but when it comes to this concept of what do I want my church to be, ideally, starting with that understanding of I'm not an elder. I mean, I know we have some elders that listen, but for the most part, I'm not an elder. That's not going to be a decision that I get to make. I can put my input and I can kind of share my thoughts. But, you know, coming to the table, understanding, I don't have full autonomy to just get everything I want exactly the way that I want it. Think about if you put a poll out about, hey, what time should we have service on Sunday night, what would you get? Four different answers, you know, based on it. So just, just. I, again, hope I didn't touch too much on the pride point that Jackie got down later in the outline, but I think that needed to be brought up here. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. And it goes along with the. The insubordination a little bit. Kind of, I could do a better job. And. And we have that. The Monday morning quarterback thing, right. With football of, you know, it's never good enough. The coach should have called a different play. Like, on the one hand, I don't subscribe to [00:15:52] Speaker C: the idea of, like, oh, you never played, so you can't criticize. No. When. When you see a bad throw, you can call it. On the other hand, there's also a level of appreciation of what they're doing is really hard, and I couldn't do that job if my life depended on it and all those kinds of things. I think we do the same thing sometimes with church leaders. Well, I do a better job of this. I do this differently. All the things you're talking about. Yeah, but there's a reason God put them there and not [00:16:16] Speaker A: you. [00:16:17] Speaker C: And [00:16:17] Speaker A: you have to live with that. [00:16:19] Speaker C: You have to acknowledge that. You have to realize I've never gotten anybody to follow me, and it probably wouldn't be good if everybody followed me. That turns into a cult. Right. So it's collaborative even again, there's a reason God didn't put one person over the church. And the people that are over the church are subject to the scriptures and they have to work together. And why he wanted multiple elders, because if this was just one person's vision, some problems crop up. And so acknowledging that, acknowledging the authority structure God has, I think sometimes we can become very anti authority in this kind of thing. And I don't want that to be the case in. Because part of it is like you're arguing for a better leadership practices would be X, Y or Z. And so you're giving lip service to the authority. But if you're going to undermine the structure that's in place to make that happen, then you don't really actually believe in the authority. You just want your own way. And I think some people end up there. And so that pride point you're bringing up, it's a big part of it, of acknowledging. I think I could help, I think I could make things get better. But I'm going to have to have the input of other people. I'm going to have to collaborate with other people. I'm going to have to do some things. I'm going to have to cheerlead for things for them that they don't want to do for me or that I don't really love and get behind them and serve them and join this program that I wouldn't have in the church if I weren't a part of it. Things like that, that's hard to balance. And I'm not talking about going against your convictions, but thinking, man, we're kind of wasting time and resources on this. Okay, but that's part of it. Sometimes there's almost that governmental standpoint. You see this, it's like, okay, I'll join your subcommittee if you join my. We're working together on things, collaborating on things. And that's not a perfect illustration. The government's very broken, but it is the concept of we're team players, we're on the same team. We're trying to work on it. No, that's not my hobby horse. No, that. That's not the program that I would choose or that I would, you know, put everything into. But you know what? I want to support them because it's about the relationship. It's about we're on the same team. And I want you to be supported in that. The pride plays a massive role. And I think this is, as I check it for myself, I think I have very much felt this from Time to time where it's like, man, you guys are saying if we just do this, things would go a lot better. And in reality, do I still think that sometimes? Yeah. Do I think I'm wrong? I don't. If I thought I was wrong, I wouldn't believe what I believe. You know, I change my belief. So, no, I don't think I'm wrong. But on the other hand, to what end? I could be right and burn the entire thing down. And that, to me, is where the idealism really comes in. If you can be idealistic, but work within a proper framework, bring it to the elders, talk to the deacons, talk to the preacher. And not being the nag, not being the nag, but being the ideas person, being the guy that says, hey, I'd love to do this. There are movers and shakers in the church that never get to wear a name badge, you know. You know, they don't get the, the deacon or the, you know, the elder or the preacher or whatever role it may be, but they still make a massive difference. Well, how do they do that? They work within the framework to bring about some of the ideals and to say, wouldn't it be better if. And I think that's where the humility come in is. First off, I don't need the accolades of saying, you know, one way or the second off, I'm not the nag who has a hobby horse that's just trying to drive it through. I'm just somebody who's passionate about making this as good as can be and just kind of working within the framework given to us, which is elders and deacons and, you know, specifically elders in the spiritual discussion. But those types of things. [00:19:45] Speaker B: In just three verses, 2 Peter 1, 5:7, the apostle Peter lays out a divine blueprint for spiritual growth. Yet these Christian graces are often quoted far more than they are understood. 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God's Blueprint for the Development of Complete Christians by Adam Kozord is available now on Amazon.com in paperback, Kindle and audiobook. [00:20:52] Speaker A: It also matters too, how you go about those things, the kind of Persona with which you, you present it. So for instance, obviously, let's say you have a, you know, you have an idea about what you want to, to implement. If you go into it with, hey, you know, here's why what we're doing, what we're doing and you guys are doing is bad. Here's my really great idea, [00:21:10] Speaker C: right? [00:21:11] Speaker A: Any organization, anybody, like, that's just not going to go over very well. So there's that, but that's kind of obvious. Even Joe, with what you said about, hey, I would love to start this. I would love to, you know, like that even that matters what Persona you present that. If you present that in a kind of a passive aggressive, like, man, sure wish somebody would do this. I guess I will [00:21:30] Speaker C: be great. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah, man, okay, I'll do. I find I'll take care of it or you know, like present it in a very passive aggressive or almost a reluctant type of attitude, then I still think that's not going to go over very well. You have to do it. Even if you're boiling over with frustration at again, the lack of programs, the lack of Bible study or poor preaching. We're going to get up to all this stuff later. I still very much think it. And I'm not. And I'm not the type person that thinks you have to filter every single one of your takes or anything like that. But you know, if you're going to be the person that says, yeah, I would love to start a Bible study program in people's house, in my own home and invite, you know, members of the congregation. I would love to help start a door knocking campaign. I would love to help start whatever. To me, it's still got to be done with a humility and with a, I don't know, optimism as opposed to, you know, a negative slant. As if, man, I really wish you guys would have done this. I guess I will. So both of those sides, to me, it very much that that's going to affect the buy in. It's going to affect the way that the congregation kind of accepts those ideas. And so that matters [00:22:31] Speaker B: also a love underneath all of that. This is about the people. Yes. This is not. It's very easy to turn the church into like A car restoration, you know, project. And it's just parts. All of this is parts. The programs are parts, the things we do. All of this is just. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Or a way to kind of show off your own talents in a way. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it can be. Yeah, you're diagnostic and. And that's something I'm wary of. And again, something I don't want to create among our listeners is people who see the church as this thing to be dissected and worked on and, and like look past the people because why do we work on it? Why do we do these things? Out of the love for the people, out of the love of Christ. And you think about Paul telling Timothy, the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a clean conscience and sincere faith. Like that's the goal of all of this stuff, is trying to get people to that place. And within that there's tons of room for debate about what's the best way to do that. That's what we're doing. But don't overlook the love of the people. Don't overlook the people themselves as we try to do that. And I think that sometimes is one of the things that can happen is the very people you're frustrated with are people you're going to spend eternity with. The preacher or the elders or the other members that you just wish. Why can't they get on board? Why are they not stepping up? Why are they doing this that way or the other thing? Because they're humans. We don't have control over anybody else. Even within your own household. Love, my wife and kids. They don't see everything the way I do all the time. And it is a part of human life to learn to work together, to learn to work within the structures God gave us to make each other flourish and thrive and help each other and all that. And I think we have to be very careful about not losing the love of the people in the midst of this. [00:24:17] Speaker C: I'm curious to get your guys thoughts on this. [00:24:19] Speaker A: And I have a question too, Joe, that I want to ask you as well. Go ahead, you go first. [00:24:23] Speaker C: I think we're at a unique disadvantage in the year 2026 when it comes to loving people. And the reason why is through social media, through the bickering, through everything we know politics, through everything we know about the world, the wars that are taking place, everything [00:24:36] Speaker A: else. The divisiveness. Yeah, [00:24:37] Speaker C: the divisiveness. I think we are all naturally coming in less trusting of people than we were. [00:24:43] Speaker A: The defensive bit, chip on our shoulder. Yeah, [00:24:45] Speaker C: correct. Like I kind of expect that people are going to disagree with me. I expect that people are going to backstab me, whatever it is. And then a lot of us have been through chur, what we call church trauma, I suppose, you know, church issues where the love of the people, it becomes very difficult now we still have to work for it. Jack, to your point, I still think that's something we have to fight for. I just think I'm curious to get your guys thoughts. Like do you agree with that? That I think we have to fight a little harder these days for that? [00:25:14] Speaker A: Overall, I would agree. I think it's a really intelligent point there. I think not to make it this too personal. I think the three of us are uniquely in that position due to we've been doing this podcast for five years. You know, I'm not, not at all trying to pretend like we're some kind of, you know, celebrities or anything like that. But like we have somewhat of a following. We're connected to, you know, different portions of the church. So we see it a little bit more especially via social media. Jack, probably chief, out of the three of us, you see it a little bit more on social media. The disagreement, the pushback. We've been through some of that stuff that you talked about. Joe, I think the average churchgoer pro certainly less than us. You know, they're, you know, showing up, worshiping, going home and they're like they're not as, maybe as connected to the, I mean they're still connected maybe to the political divisiveness and kind of the again people just generally having a chip on their shoulder in general. So overall I would agree it is not disagreeing. I would agree with you. I do think the three of us maybe are a little bit more in that direction to you know, some of the, the stuff that we've been exposed to and just we've been in the somewhat public eye for the last five years. [00:26:20] Speaker C: I'd agree with [00:26:20] Speaker B: that. Yeah, [00:26:21] Speaker C: I think [00:26:21] Speaker A: trust is the [00:26:22] Speaker C: key factor to the love, to love and relationship. Like in any marriage, once the trust is gone, it's really difficult to bring about this warm and fuzzy feeling. And that's where I think there are people that have struggling with trust. And you're right, Will, I think we've been through. We get messages all the time of people that, you know, love us and hate us and that's fine. Like it's. Once again, we're not celebrities. We're just saying there are both sides of that. Not everybody experiences that. But I Think trust right now is at an all time low amongst. We'll get to it in the. Think fast. You know, you different takes on. On the Red Baron guy. Like people are at a breaking point. People are not. Not in a, a good state of mind right now, I don't think. And so we bring all of that when we walk into the church building on Sunday. That's what makes love and relationships tough. But Jack, sorry, what are your thoughts? [00:27:05] Speaker B: I wouldn't say an all time high. I'd say the all time high was 20. 20, 20, 21. And I think we're in a better place now actually than we were then. But the other thing is this is. Was a significant chunk of the New Testament is figuring out how to get Jews and Gentiles to work together. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:19] Speaker B: And how to, you know, to go from thinking these people are dogs to that's my brother. Like it. There was a lot of a push and pull, a lot of give and take from both sides. That's where you get A. Romans 14 and 1st Corinthians about the meats and all of those discussions they had to have. Acts 15. They have to get together and figure out what are we going to do about all this. That was hard for him and that was something to work through. And that's why so much in the New Testament is spent on unity. And I think that's important for us to grasp in this as well. [00:27:47] Speaker A: So here's my question for Joe. A little bit of different direction here. Joe, you have been a very outspoken, not even critic, I would say. Just you're in complete opposition hater of the phrase choose your battles within marriage. Right. It's. It's the idea that, you know, man, don't bring up every little thing, only try to fight about the big stuff. And I, for the record, I fully agree with you. I'm right there with you. What are your thoughts on this idea of choosing your battles within congregations? Not being that this would speak to the man. I really don't want to be the squeaky wheel who just kind of nitpicks, complains about everything. Because again, if you're, you know, if you're like the three of us, and I know everybody is, again, you probably got to take on everything. You know, what type of songs we should sing again, service all those things that I kind of already described. Do you. Are you. Are you a kind of a. More of a fan of. Okay, maybe I am going to choose my battles a little bit. Maybe I'd prefer us to sing a few More in your case, older songs from 250 years ago. But, man, I'm gonna choose to actually focus on let's have a better quality Bible class program and not bring up the songs. Or do you. Would you kind of subscribe to the same thing that you do in marriage, which is, hey, man, bring everything up? I think I know what you would say, but what are your. What are your thoughts on that? I'll ask you specifically, since you are once again the most vocal advocate on record about it. Yes, that's right. Yeah. [00:29:07] Speaker C: I think in friendships and churches, that advice is pretty solid, that you choose your battles. Now, I do think that choose your battles sometimes can lead people toward hobby horses where they get on one thing and that's the battle, that's the hill they're going to die on. And if it doesn't go their way, then they just explode and leave to the next church. And I think that's very dangerous. So when we choose that, that's where that can go wrong, is, you know, you get that one battle that you're just, you know, not going to. And not anything doctrinal, not anything that's like, you know, wrong, but just something that matters to you. On the other hand, in marriage, you're trying to be one flesh, so there's nothing you shouldn't be communicating about with your spouse. I think the conflict resolution. Correct. There's nowhere to hide. And the conflict resolution skills are within two people in a church. You should be able to within, you know, one, one on one situations. But you're talking one on, in my case, 250. Like, I'm not going to solve 250. Whereas with me and Alyssa, I can stay up till 3am and hash this out and have a conversation about it. And we can see, even if we don't agree, we can come to a better conclusion about where we stand. That is just not to me, that's the idealism. If we think we can do that within the church and even within friendships to some degree, like, I'm not living with this person every day, and this really doesn't matter all that much in marriage, it brings a ton of resentment. And I think in the church, if it's bringing up resentment, then that means it matters to you more than you let on. That would be the advice I'd give is, okay, you don't have to have every. Maybe it's a bigger battle [00:30:29] Speaker A: than you think. [00:30:30] Speaker C: Correct. And that's what you worry about in marriage is, oh, it doesn't matter. Choose your battles. Choose your battle. It's like, okay, what battle would you fight? Because you just passed on 15 battles and you're resentful about all of them, and that comes in later and you explode. If that's happening within the church, then, yes, you probably need to be talking with more people about it. But on the other hand, yeah, I think within friendships and such, no, there may be nitpicks that, you know, I'd have with either one of you and probably vice versa from time to time. It doesn't matter. I'm not about to, you know, I don't care because at the end of the day, we're friends and the relationship is what matters to me. And if a nitpick, you know, subtle nitpick comes up on something about the podcast, who cares? [00:31:08] Speaker A: Joe would. Nick. [00:31:08] Speaker C: If it's a big enough [00:31:09] Speaker A: affinity for. For newer songs, for sure. [00:31:11] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I'd nitpick that, yeah, your kids went trick or treating. I'm gonna nitpick. No. Yeah, [00:31:15] Speaker A: that's right. That's [00:31:16] Speaker B: right. [00:31:16] Speaker C: But you know what I mean, like, we let those things go because you're not my spouse. You're not one flesh where we're friends. And I care about the relationship, and I'm not looking to not every. I guess I'm trying to formulate thoughts. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Well, I think [00:31:29] Speaker C: not every relationship is built to withstand a lot of conflict. [00:31:32] Speaker A: And I think the choose your battles thing springs from a heart of, listen, man, not everything is about you, and you don't have to be right about everything. I think that's what it stems from. I do agree [00:31:42] Speaker C: with [00:31:42] Speaker A: you that. [00:31:42] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:43] Speaker A: That within marriage, it is not healthy to just bottle things up. And, I mean, if you're the type that can truly let it go and say, you know what? I don't have to be right on this one. That's one thing. Most people are not like that, number one. And number two, you might need to be right on it instead of just kind of letting it go. Which is, again, I think, what you talk about, Joe. But, yeah, the choose your battles thing, again, friendship, church thing, I think that springs from a healthy notion of, like, listen, I don't have to be right. I'm gonna probably still think that I'm right. I'm still going to have my take and have my opinion, but I am. I am good with letting somebody else, you know, run with the victory here, so to speak. That takes a very strong person. Again, with the passive aggressiveness. You can't be the type that says, yo, yeah, I'm Gonna let it go and then, you know, passive aggressively bring it up three weeks later. That's not choosing your battles in that instance. And so, yeah, I think, I think you answered that pretty well. [00:32:31] Speaker B: There's also an authority structure thing here. Whereas in marriage you gotta make some of these decisions in the church where you're not in [00:32:38] Speaker C: charge. You gotta, you're. You're not in somebody else's house. Not, not. Not in the technical sense of how the Bible divides that up. But you are under somebody else's leadership and you don't come in. It's in the same way I don't let a skirmish between my siblings boil over and ruin the whole house. Your squabbles or your disagreements with somebody else in the church, you're not in charge of this thing. And you need to be under the leadership of the people who are and [00:33:06] Speaker B: basically not undermine them by taking your own petty squabbles into things. And we're talking a lot about interpersonal conflict, but there's also the discontentment, the disgruntledness with the way things are done or whatever. And one of the other things about choose your battles is if you find out that every single day you have something to nitpick about, your spouse, every single day you have a problem. Every single. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Maybe you're the same a little bit. Yeah, [00:33:29] Speaker B: maybe. Yeah, right. Maybe that's. And I think that can be the case in the church as well. Of. They didn't do this. Right. They didn't do that. Right. The song leader didn't do that. The preacher didn't do this. At a certain point, like, okay, maybe I need to just chill out a little bit. I mean, like, if. Because I think this is one of the other ideas we run across and you've entertained. Entertained from time to time, man. If you could just draft the all star church and you could pick who's going to be the preacher. You're going to pick your favorite song leader. You could pick the guys that you want to lead or follow as the leaders and all [00:33:59] Speaker A: we trade. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah. Who would we trade? Yeah, like, yeah, the, the draft picks out of the preaching schools and stuff. Yeah. But if you had that, and Joe and I have talked about this, if we had handpicked our own perfect church, we could, you know, you look back in hindsight and like, that guy wouldn't have worked with this. This wouldn't work with that. We would have had to deal with this problem because we're humans. [00:34:23] Speaker A: We're fallible. Yeah. This [00:34:24] Speaker B: idea that you can outrun the problems, that you can overcome the problems, any of that. You can manage them well and you can get to the place where they're not as big of problems. But. But these are people. There's always going to be problems. And if you don't have a calculation for that. And Joe had this question, he's a really good one. We put on our outline, did God bake in a lack of idealism? And I think he did, just from the fact that basically all of the New Testament epistles are dealing with a problem. They're dealing with a doctrinal misunderstanding. The personal issue in Philippi or in Philippians and Philemon, those kinds of things that have to be handled. That shows us there's no church that Paul writes to. And he's like, well, guys, you got it all right? And I don't have anything to say. Have a good one. It doesn't work that way. And why. I [00:35:11] Speaker C: think [00:35:12] Speaker B: that's informative to us to [00:35:14] Speaker C: realize I shouldn't be [00:35:15] Speaker B: looking for that either. [00:35:16] Speaker C: I think the church has already stepped into eternity in this way. There is no end point. There is no I've arrived. It is a consistent sanctification on getting better. Getting better. You know, working toward being more Christ, like working toward loving each other. It breaks our brain to think it's kind of, you know, Ecclesiastes talks about. He put eternity in our hearts. Like. But we can't really grasp a. No end point, beginning or end point. And so when we think about stepping into heaven, it's like, well, it's like a bazillion years. Like, no, that's still time. You're still trying to cap it. You're still trying to say this is when it will end. There is no end point. And I think this is the. The maybe the mystery element to. Not the mystery from Paul. That's about something different, but like there's a mysterious element to the church of we can't grasp. And I'm just spitballing here thing off the top of my head, but it's almost like eternity. We can't grasp the concept that the church was never intended to have an end point of you've arrived. It is just a. I'm plotting along, doing the best I can as a Christian and helping the church to the best of my ability. And that's tough for us. We want to get to the destination. It's like you get on a road trip and go, where are we going? I have no idea. Just keep driving. Just keep driving. Just. And it Gets monotonous and it gets tiring and we get burnt out. And we. And because it's like, where are we going with this? That's the difficulty of the church is sometimes we lose the plot and go, where are we going with this? And where we're going is God would circle back around and go, what is the point? Love the brethren. You know, be unified with the brethren. Jesus prays for that in John 17. Unity was clearly on his mind in his last moments. 1. Yeah, exactly. Unity is the theme. Why is that so important? Because we're prepping ourselves for being unified with all these people in heaven. And so I think once again, we've stepped into eternity in certain ways already is in the church that there's not a key point we're driving toward. There is merely a. We're learning how to be more unified, loving God and loving the brethren. And that's so, like, I realize that's so pie in the sky. That's so, like, above it all. And, yeah, just love people. But it's like, I think that's. It's really difficult to not have an end point for me. I like driving toward a point. You know, will you. And I talk about this all the time, the podcast of striving for greatness. And there's this idea of, like, yeah, because you're going to get to here, you're going to get to this point. But the more I like, the older I get, my. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Go ahead, go ahead, you finish. [00:37:32] Speaker C: Well, the older I get in my. My wisdom of 32 years old, of course, is that, man, I already arrived. I already did things, accomplished things in my life that I thought were going to make me happy. And I didn't. It didn't make me happy. And so it's like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And we get that in church. And that's the idealism that I think kills us. [00:37:48] Speaker A: There's a parallel, Joe, with something you and I have talked about. Follow me for a second. And I know you brought this up before, so this is. Hopefully you don't think this is, like, disparaging. Anyway, you have talked before, and I've seen, like you said, we. We sit down, you know, we're together after a meal. You sit down, you reach for your computer, just almost out, instinctively, right? It's like, okay, what. How can I be productive? What can I be doing right now? There's always something. Next thing, next thing, next thing. The parallel with that with the church is exactly what you're talking About. And by the way, I have very similar. There are times where it's like, okay, all right, what can I be doing right now, man? What, where? Let's be productive. Where are we going? Where are we headed versus after dinner? To use the living room analogy, I'm going to sit. I'm not going to grab my phone and respond to work texts. I'm not going to, you know, try to be productive. I'm going to sit and enjoy the presence of my family. I'm going to talk, we're going to talk, we're going to, you know, just, just kind of be similarly with the church. Then this is where I think churches can over program themselves. Sometimes coming together, worshiping and hanging out and Talking afterwards for 40 minutes is, is the best thing is just like just being, being present, showing up to worship, going home, being with your family, coming back. I'm not saying don't have programs or events or things like that, but my point is I think maybe people who are very driven, people who are very productivity minded, like I would say all three of us are, can very much bake that into our church emphasis as well. It's like, all right, how can we productive. Do we have something we're working towards? What, what's the next meeting about? Or when's the next meeting? When's this? When's that? As opposed to, man, I'm going to show up, I'm going to be really excited tonight to, to study whatever we're studying on a Wednesday night class, man. Man, I can't wait to talk to, you know, fellow brothers and sisters for 20, 30 minutes after. And then I'm going to go home. Are we content with that? I think is the question, just like again, are we content? You know, speaking to myself, am I content to sit in the living room with my family for 30 minutes to an hour after dinner and just talk, play with the kids, read books, whatever it is. Again, we can. I guess my point is to piggybacking off of what you said is we can very much kind of project that productivity mindset with work and home life onto the church. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. I wanted to tell you about our seminars at Focus Press. Each of us involved in the work have a series of lessons that we have prepared to encourage churches to help you understand the word better, how to navigate this culture. We cover a wide range of topics from things like evolution and apologetics to cultural issues to the family to the godly young men. Kind of content that Joe and Will do to church reset which is of course, my passion to schedule one of us. Whether Dr. Brad Harab will harab Joe Wilke or me, Jack Wilkey, Reach out to [email protected] if you'd like to talk to me or if you'd like to talk to one of the others, I'll pass your information along to them. We'd love to come and encourage your church and put on one of our Focus Press seminars. [00:40:33] Speaker C: Well, it goes back to Sergey real fast. It goes. I almost saw this when you mentioned this as a episode topic, as like a part two to our rest episode. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:41] Speaker C: That I think the presence that you're talking [00:40:43] Speaker A: about. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Yes. And the rest of the. Is such a key part of just enjoying the journey and learning to love the brethren is you have to be in a state of rest. And when you are constantly keyed up of what can we fix? Can we do this? Can we do that? And what if we did this? Like, and then what? And then what? We get there, we've arrived, we did those things. Everybody listened to you. It's amazing. And then what? Are you really going to be happy at that point? No, you'll find something else to fix. So maybe the goal here is find rest right now where you are and learn to just be appreciative and be present where you are and work from that place. Work from a place of rest. But I don't think us who are idealistic and I think we draw this as a podcast, we draw a lot of idealistic people and I love it. I appreciate everybody listens to us and I see the comments we get on the deep end and things along those lines on our patreon and they're such good comments and I love each person and the takes that they bring. But I can tell we draw a similar type of person that's like, what's more, you know, a little more. Little more, a little more sometimes that's coming from my own problems of. [00:41:41] Speaker A: And it can breed discontentment is the word [00:41:43] Speaker C: correct. And burnout as we talked about. Sorry, Jack. [00:41:46] Speaker B: Well, there is a level of it is what it is like and that's not a let it be well, but to let it be what [00:41:55] Speaker C: it [00:41:56] Speaker B: would be but like today. And I wrote an article on this a couple weeks ago as I was grappling with this idea of all of the things you think need to get better, probably do need to get better. They are not going to be better this Sunday. And your answer to that cannot be, well, I'm going to be unhappy until they get there now. I'm going to work until they get there for sure. That's great. But you do need to find contentment in the meantime, you do need to find peace and joy and all of the things that God brings. Because even, I mean, that's kind of what Paul's talking about with Philippians 4:13. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And he was talking about serious persecutions and things like that. But in your service to Christ, getting through the lows, he's there with you. And if you can't find joy in that, then you don't. You're not really connecting with him in the long term service. And so I think that's something that we have to look toward. And I wanted to read this Bonhoeffer quote I put in the notes that from his little book, Life Together. Very good little book. I don't recommend everything he had to say, but this one in particular, if you'll give me a minute to read this paragraph, he says every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial. God hates visionary dreaming. It makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. That can be very real. You just have this. It's supposed to be this way and everybody else is in the way of it. That's not healthy. And that leads to the discontentment, the, I don't know, the resentment, bitterness toward your fellow Christians. There's a reason Paul told us not to be bitter towards each other. And so getting the ideal out of our minds and just working towards something better, I think is a really good one. Any final thoughts before we get to some practicals to wrap up? [00:44:00] Speaker C: Man, that. [00:44:00] Speaker A: What a quote. What [00:44:02] Speaker C: a quote. [00:44:03] Speaker A: He who loves his dream [00:44:04] Speaker C: of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter. Even those personal interests may be ever so honest and are sacrificial. That just, it's. That's exactly what we're talking about. I'm glad you found this quote because it sums up perfectly what we're saying, which is we're all dreamers. We all want to have that community. We're dreaming of something better. But if we. If we do that to the detriment of just loving the brethren where they are, and it is what it is and just being okay with it, we're destroying the Christian community ultimately because it causes discontentment. And all the things we're talking. [00:44:33] Speaker A: I don't want to bring up an old hot button issue, especially as we're looking to get to the practical side of things. So I don't know if y' all have any comments on this, but this is why we have cautioned against things like polishing the pulpit before. A lot of benefit, a lot of great things. You hear good lessons, you hear good speakers for the most part, but there can very much be an element of idealism in that. And you return home to your congregation, it's like, well, back to these bums again. Back to this preacher who you can, you know, like, [00:45:01] Speaker B: when you hear [00:45:02] Speaker A: that, [00:45:02] Speaker B: I wish we all could just us get together and have our own church kind of [00:45:05] Speaker A: thing. Right, exactly. You know, to heaven on earth for two weeks type of thing. And obviously, we've. We've. We've done episodes on that before. My point is it very ties directly into that, you know, quote that, you know, you just read Jack and Joe that you just emphasized is, you know, that idea that, man, if all you're doing is focusing on ideal and the dream and this and that, man, what are you ignoring that you have right in front of you, you. And so, again, not to get. Not to spiral off into the lectureship thing, but I do think that is, again, with all the benefits they provide, a negative consequence that can kind of come from that. [00:45:37] Speaker B: All right, so looking at a few practicals, what do you do if the preaching is weak, if you come home every week? Like, man, I didn't learn anything. It just was not. I didn't get anything out of it. And that's a constant pattern. Some people are in that situation, and that's not to throw any preachers under the bus. It's just sometimes that happens. So what do you do? Again, this is about managing in the meantime. Yeah, you hope the preaching is better someday, but in the meantime, what do you do? [00:46:06] Speaker C: I think you have to build yourself up. You know, there are times where I'll turn on a sermon on YouTube, somebody, a preacher that I like or something like that. And we have good preaching, too, but, you know, that's just a. Yeah, we, you know, turn on YouTube and get fed in other ways. You're reading Books you're reading. You know, I've got the RC Sproul holiness of God keyed up like you're reading books to just kind of fill that or scratch the itch, fill the need, you know, fill your cup a little bit more. I think you change. The other thing I'd say is you change your goal of going there from being, you know, the spiritually fed, from the, the sermon to the fellowship, spiritually fed from the fellowship with other people, sticking around and talking with people after whatever it may be. So I think the, there are ways to feed yourself throughout the week other than just Bible class and sermon. But a lot of people that kind of becomes their crutch. Like they, they're not opening the Bible throughout the week. They're not really engaging with that. And then that is their one area or their one time of the week. They're 25 minutes where they're going to think on spiritual things. I think we have to do a better job throughout the week of feeding ourselves. [00:47:10] Speaker A: I would agree with that. Obviously we've covered, hey, you know, maybe approach the elders and just share concerns. But you know, that can be challenging and I can also sometimes prove a little bit fruitless. I would agree. I mean if, if my kids Bible classes I view as kind of weak and watered down like that should be kind of the icing on the cake, right? That should be kind of the extra things that they're getting. So it's, it shouldn't be the end all, be all. And listen, as somebody who I would consider myself, and I don't brag about this, a bit of a preach, preaching, maybe sermon critic so to speak. Like if I, if I listen to one, I'm like, well, didn't learn a single thing or you know, like, you know, I, I know a good sermon. When I hear one type of thing, I have to remind myself, listen, you know, that's, you know, that's not something that I can maybe always put myself in the, as the judge during executioner of, but it is, that's why to your point, Joe, just to kind of once again add on to what you said, feeding yourself, studying for yourself, making sure that you have other outlets through which you're learning. But I do think approaching the elders and maybe sharing some of those concerns is within bounds, so to speak. Jack, any thoughts? [00:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I have a whole lot to change or add otherwise. Part of it is, especially if you're the more mature Christian, helping your other fellow Christians get fed, that can start to be A concern as well is like, well, man, we're not getting fed. They might not be getting much out of these either. So that's where the hospitality, the fellowship, the spiritual conversations. You can start helping other people. And that goes to you guys. Point of, you're going to need to feed yourself some and start helping others as best you can. [00:48:40] Speaker A: I know. We become teachers. If you feel confident enough and you feel studied enough, volunteer to teach. Volunteer to get up there sometimes. Obviously, if you're a guy. And again, not in a man, this guy's horrible. Let me get up and set everybody straight. But no, like, hey, I would love to help. I'd love to offer my talent, so to speak, any chance that I can. So that's an option as well. [00:49:00] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so the next one we got. What do you do if people won't fellowship? And so I'm not the one just throwing out questions. I guess [00:49:04] Speaker A: I'll just say you go first. Start in [00:49:06] Speaker B: on this one, [00:49:07] Speaker C: because I've been in this situation where you invite some, you know, church people over [00:49:10] Speaker B: and over. Hey, you [00:49:11] Speaker C: want to come over? We'd love to have you over for me. Hey, we'd love to have [00:49:13] Speaker B: you. [00:49:13] Speaker C: No, no, we're busy. We're busy. We're busy. Oh, you've been busy for eight straight months [00:49:16] Speaker B: without [00:49:17] Speaker C: a break. That's incredible. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Okay. You know, they're not. You [00:49:20] Speaker C: see [00:49:21] Speaker B: what they're doing on social media. They just don't want to. That's hard. [00:49:24] Speaker C: And I think there is a level of taking that parable of, all right, the invited ones didn't come. I'll go invite somebody else. Start. Maybe that's where you start looking evangelistically. If your church family won't. It's still good to be hospitable. And so maybe have neighbors over, maybe friends from around the community, parents of your kids, friends or whatever it may be. It'll bless you in one way or another. And so just make use of that. [00:49:51] Speaker B: It [00:49:51] Speaker C: is [00:49:51] Speaker B: unfortunate when church members just aren't interested, but that does happen from time to time. And you can't force people. And so I would just say, look externally is one way you can handle that. What do you guys think? [00:50:04] Speaker A: Yeah, not much to add. I think [00:50:06] Speaker C: don't give [00:50:07] Speaker B: up on the members, but. Yeah, [00:50:09] Speaker C: correct. Don't gravitate toward people that you can. Yeah, it ends up becoming a click type. Some people think that. But gravitate toward, like. Like ask around if you have somebody that consistently turns you down. Okay. You know, you can't. You can't change that. But don't let that discourage you from everybody else. [00:50:21] Speaker A: I was gonna say, don't be. I love my wife. She listens to this. She. She can. She can have this a little bit. And I, you know, I try to, you know, talk to her, coach it out of her, so to speak. But, like, man, I'm just tired of inviting this person. I'm tried. I'm tired of reaching out to this person. They never respond or they never, like. I get that. That's a natural human tendency. Let's. If you invite the same person over three or four times in a row and they. They find an excuse every time, that your natural inclination is to throw up your hands and go, well done with them. Done inviting them over. Like, be careful of that kind of attitude. Be careful of that mindset is what I would say. Just continue to put yourself out there. Continue to do your part. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, last one, Joe. We'll put you first on this one. What do you do if the elders won't confront issues? I don't want to say weak, but elders who [00:51:07] Speaker A: are [00:51:07] Speaker B: not taking care of business is one we get messages about and things like that. So [00:51:12] Speaker A: the most serious of the three, I would say [00:51:14] Speaker B: yes. Yeah. Well, [00:51:15] Speaker C: you [00:51:15] Speaker B: want to go first? No. Yeah, [00:51:17] Speaker A: I think it actually. I think you did go first. I think it is. I did go first. [00:51:20] Speaker C: Okay. Thank goodness. [00:51:21] Speaker B: There you go. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And to be honest, I don't want to put a percentage on it. I think the percentage of congregations where maybe elders, they won't confront issues is not the best way to put it. Maybe it's. They're really reluctant to confront issues. They'll try every single thing that they possibly can to get around it or get away from it, and then finally, maybe they'll eventually do. But, yeah, you'll have some that just simply won't. This is where I would be the most concerned about my family's spiritual well being. Again, we didn't really ask the question of when can somebody leave a car or when should somebody leave a congregation. I think there. There's still an element with this question of still doing your part, still doing everything you can to follow Matthew 18 to be. To be the humble party, to make sure that you're not trying to dictate everything. But, man, if there's a serious issue. My dad is. There was a part of a congregation, pretty serious issue that the elders eventually did come around and confront. But it was a little slow developing that. My dad was, you know, his position was basically, listen, this is a really big. He, you know, viewed it to be a black and white sin, non sin issue. I can't have my family worshiping in a congregation where, you know, that's the position is to just kind of throw up your hands and say, well, what are you going to do about this really big issue? That's not everything. That's not every single issue. Obviously there's small issues that, you know, small squabbles and disagreements, and then there's really big issues that elders won't confront. I think obviously those two things fall into different buckets. I guess my quick take is, I think this is the one where you may have to fully take inventory of man. What is my family's spiritual health going to be if these, if these men are the ones leading and they simply won't confront issues. Because the one thing we can say, we can critique elders about, again, little things, times of service or this and that, that if they're not leading, if they're not shepherding, if they are not doing what the New Testament calls them to do. I do think that at that point you have a right to kind of call that out. Essentially. I don't think you can be the squeaky wheel about again, the more minor things. If they're not leading, if they're not addressing sin in congregations, if they're not addressing women running the congregation, if they're not addressing this and that. Yeah, I think, you know, you do have a right at that point to say, hey, I submit to you, you are my elders. This something's gotta get figured out here and resolve. And I think so. That's my answer. Joe, I'm curious where you fall. [00:53:44] Speaker C: I think that's a good answer. This is, as you said, the one that you'd be looking. You're not rescinding your, your membership immediately. You're following the trends. A lot of the problem is, yes, passivity to some degree. I think most elders are just very reactive and not proactive. Like, yes, they may get to it, but the wheels might fall off before they get to it. They're just reacting to a lot of things. The proactivity is, hey, I see this could be a problem. Let's go address it. A lot of conflict resolution things along those lines we've talked about. And so there are a lot of reactive people in the world. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, doesn't mean they're, you know, they're awful. It means they are waiting for problems to arise and putting out fires rather than getting ahead on things. They're not building the house, they're just putting out all the fires on the street. We have to, I think, understand the difficulty. There's got to be a level of sympathy for the guys that are really trying to do their best and maybe just feeling very snowed under. You want to give as much leeway to your elders as possible because I think from a respect standpoint, they, they've earned it as elders. On the other hand, it really comes down to what are your convictions, how much are your convictions? Are you finding yourself, you know, pushing to the side or, or, you know, not like they're not stepping up to. There's going to be small things along the way of, you know, vbs or something. For me, okay, whatever. But like if it's a woman, women are leading and they're starting to get up in front and the elders. Okay, well, there's obvious, like you just have to know your line. You have to know what are the non negotiables here? Because there's plenty of elders that are reacting to things. It's not great. You know, I wish that they would take more of a hard line stance. But on the other hand, they're really good guys. They are trying their best in a lot of areas and even if they're not, they're still worthy of respect and we're going to honor them as best as we can. So just have the line in mind. But Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:55:26] Speaker B: There's always that discussion of man. There were very imperfect churches in the New Testament and the advice was not get out of there, not, not run away. Obviously Paul did give the guidelines for confronting an elder who's gone astray in First Timothy, and that's something to be taken seriously, is that it's going to take multiple witnesses. It's going to take publicly confronting and standing up to and saying, hey, this is a problem. We're going to have to deal, do something about this. And that's especially hard when it's all of them. There might be a time and a place for that, but laboring under, working it out to the best of your ability, kind of having the patience, because that's another part of this. And we spent some time on it, but maybe not as much as I would have liked the patience part of this, of if you think the elders are doing a poor job, talk with them about it, have the conversations, meet with them. It's also probably going to take some time. It's not going to be a one meeting and they go, oh, you're right. We're going to just start doing all of those things right now. Like, it's. You're going to have to stay close by and. And work through those things. And so it's. I don't know, it's a very tough spot to be in when somebody has that. And again, we hear from people who are in those kinds of spots. Love your elders. Submit as best as you can. Confront what you have to confront. All of those kinds of things. So. All right. We were looking at doing a thing fast. Joe, you've got a client in like four minutes, don't you? [00:56:49] Speaker C: If we keep this to five to seven minutes, [00:56:53] Speaker B: I don't have a whole lot to say. So. To set up. To set up the scene briefly, our thinkfast this week is about a Red Baron pizza. Yes. Viral video. He was confronted by some prank video people who tricked him into thinking they had stolen $10 from his phone via phone pay. And it. He says he was gonna go get the manager of the store. And it escalated. He sees them again, and the confrontation continues. And he's raising his voice and uses some foul language. And this got a lot of reaction on the Internet. I think he's up to $90,000 in GoFundMe money. [00:57:28] Speaker A: 143. I just [00:57:30] Speaker B: checked two [00:57:31] Speaker A: minutes ago. Yeah. [00:57:32] Speaker B: So people contributing because the man let loose about the problems in his life, that he's out there late at night delivering pizza. He's got to be up the next morning, he's not able to see his kids at home at night. He's working hard. And now he's got to deal with this. These hooligans pranking him, trying to make him think they're taking money from him. So there were a lot of reactions. I think Will is the lone dissenter on the entire Internet. But what do we have to say here? Here? [00:57:58] Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I think it's funny that Jack said he didn't have a lot to say because he had a lot to say before we turned the cameras on. [00:58:02] Speaker B: Well, I don't. I mean, I. I feel like it's pretty straightforward. So it's. Anyway, [00:58:07] Speaker A: we've [00:58:07] Speaker C: already talked about this for 30. I wish we would have recording. So, [00:58:10] Speaker A: yeah, I wish we would have had the cameras on [00:58:11] Speaker C: that would have made it. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Listen, I. I don't intend to be framed as the defender of the, of the prank video people here, because I. I certainly am not that. I think those guys, you know, obviously, people that. And if you're. If you didn't watch the video, obviously this Means nothing to you and I wish we had more time to, to dive into it but, but yeah, I, I, I fully sympathize with this guy. He's got the four kids, says he can't pay his mortgage, he snaps. And I, you know, detest people who, you know, would poke fun and, and really ch, I guess mock people like that. My take on it is that I think it's insane that this guy who, to be clear, as the video shows, he tried to de escalate at some point, but at some point it was escalated back to where he is yelling, making an entire scene at the store, cursing at this kid, calling him A, calling him the B word, just kind of screaming in his face that we have turned him into the hero and now $143,000 has been raised on his behalf, all from a 90 second clip. We don't know what, you know, first of all, I'm assuming his claims are valid. We don't know that. We don't know what decisions have been made in his life to get him to the point where he's barely scraping by. One of my main takes was if you're going to have that type of emotional instability to where you're going to snap just like that, yeah, that probably does impact your ability to get job promotions, land better jobs and stuff like that. Fully sympathize with him. And I think the, I think the, the point that Jack and Joe are hitting at, which is the, the incentive structures in America are so distorted at this point to where the, the 15 or 16 year old kid who's an influencer and then making money off of this is incentivized and the guy who's put in the hard days work is not. I fully back that. I think that's, I think it's insane that we are in a society that, that pushes that. I think people are using this guy as kind of their, you know, avatar, their model to express their frustrations at Trump, their frustrations at the economy, their frustrations at, you know, again, this social media influencer world. I just think it's ridiculous that we are excusing the profanity lace tirade of this guy despite the stressors he's under, despite all those things. So Joe has a client in two minutes but that's again, I am, I am very much in the minority on that take but that's, that's kind of where I stand. [01:00:27] Speaker C: Well, to me it's, it's kind of vigilantism which is, no, that, that's not justified. He goes and talks to the manager, he goes and talks to people at the, you know, at Walmart, at the store. It's clear they're not going to do anything. And so as the kid walks out and says, thanks for the 20 bucks, clearly smar me, it should beat the brakes off the kid, to be honest with you. I mean, I think in a better society we do that. In my opinion, the, the key for this is this was not justified. I think he was overreacting a lot of ways. It was needed for the moment. It was needed because, yes, a lot of people are feeling the strain. A lot of people are in that moment. And so this idea that we're just going to screw with people, we're going to mess with them and, you know, things like that, I think that's abhorrent and that behavior needs to stop. And if this is what causes that next prankster to think twice, because he might get somebody that is going to scream at them and cuss them out and offer to go in the parking lot, beat them up. Okay, okay. You know, it puts an end to childishness, it puts an end to this prankster, which is just cruel. It's mean. And in this day and age, you don't know what people are dealing with. And so do I think that the guy was justified in cussing out probably a, what, a 16 year old or whatever? No. Do I think it was needed for the cultural moment for people to be able to stand up and say, this is wrong? Yes. And it would have taken an overreaction like that for people to be able to call out the ridiculousness of what that kid is doing and threaten, you know, like pranking, that he's taking money from somebody. So that's my take on it. Jack, what are your thoughts? [01:01:51] Speaker B: I feel like there's a degree of rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep going on here of like, man, everybody feels for this guy and that's why their support for him is like, this is what a terrible situation to be put in and he's on camera and all that. Yeah. I mean, like, you just feel for a guy that isn't able to see his kids and now he's got to deal with a TikTok prankster that is. It's relatable. It's a man. None of us should have to be put through things like this. A lot of people are having to put through things like this. And now it's on camera. And so, yes, it is kind of a solidarity with Somebody who's in a really tough spot. And I don't know, I think you're seeing somebody at his worst moment. And if that's his worst is raising his voice and using a couple of choice [01:02:33] Speaker C: words. Yeah, it's not good. [01:02:34] Speaker A: We don't know that he should do that. [01:02:36] Speaker C: Well, we didn't beat him. I mean, he could have, you know, he could have just put in a beat down on the kid. He could have pulled out a gun and shot the kid. I mean, like, could have gotten much worse that somebody who is just driven to their wits end. I think that's something that, you know, I hate the word empathy because of all the ways it's been twisted. But just feeling what the guy's feeling of, that's a really tough spot. And any of us who are at rock bottom like that, [01:03:00] Speaker B: if that is the worst that comes out of us, okay, you know, that's. I've seen a lot worse from church people and more. And you know, again, I'm not saying it's good to use profanity on somebody, but on the other hand, getting angry and frustrated in that moment. Yeah, I'm okay with that and I feel for the guy. So the [01:03:19] Speaker C: reason we bring it up, up. We really want to know what you guys think. We really want to be. We. We were like, ah, do we do this Is. Think fast because we're. I don't think there'll [01:03:26] Speaker A: be a lot of disparity. [01:03:29] Speaker C: No. [01:03:29] Speaker A: But I'd [01:03:29] Speaker C: love, I'd love for people to engage on the Willpoint because I think that is a needed. It's always good to have, you know, some, some parity here and to go back and forth. So I'd love for people to engage on Will's point. What are your thoughts on that? The emotional instability. Justified. Not justified. You know, is this maybe a cause for concern that we are glorifying $143,000 later for a guy that just cussed out a teenager? Like, like, what are our thoughts on that? Where's it hit you? I think those are really fascinating questions. Putting aside, yes, he should not have cussed. We're not talking. This is not a morality standpoint. [01:03:57] Speaker A: The emotional instability. [01:03:59] Speaker C: Correct. [01:03:59] Speaker A: You know, and [01:04:00] Speaker C: where people [01:04:00] Speaker A: stand. Yeah, [01:04:02] Speaker C: so it's sociology, man. It's fascinating and [01:04:04] Speaker A: it's interesting. It's interesting and [01:04:06] Speaker C: it's interesting. So get your comments in. [01:04:08] Speaker B: All right, we're gonna have to wrap right there because Joe's got somebody waiting on him. So thank you guys for tuning in and we'll talk to you on the next one one. Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. 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