[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilke here, joined by Will Harab and Joe Wilkie. We often end our episodes telling you to see us on Focus plus our Patreon, where you can get extra content. I'm going to put that on the front end this time. We've got a great.
Pretty sizable group has gathered there. It's really neat to see. We got a lot of comments on last week's Deep End and so we just get to answer your questions. We get to engage a little bit more with the audience. And so that is greatly appreciated for everyone who supports us there. And it does a lot to just build up the work of Focus Press so you can find out more about that. You can support us. It's 10 bucks a month. I think you get a little bit less if you do like a year subscription. It kind of reduces that down a little bit. But FocusPress.org/plus has all the info on that, so just wanted to put that plug in right at the front.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: It's a whole backlog of basically extra Thing Deeper episodes too, going on like what, over two years now, I think.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we've got, we'll have people tell us from time to time. Yeah, I just got into your podcast, you know, six months ago and I've listened to all of them, which is crazy that we're 200 episodes in and people will do that if you've run out of things to catch up on and you just want more. There's, like you said, there's.
I don't know, there's probably 120. Yeah, think deeper. I mean, Deep End episodes, plus there's the Bible teaching series, there's Daily devos. There's all kinds of extra content there. So check that out if you are interested and hungry for more Thing Deeper. So having said that, let's turn our attention to this week's episode. A while back we did one on Church of Christ cliches and some of the things that you will hear in the churches of Christ from time to time.
This time we're kind of broadening that to more just things that people say in the Christian world.
Terms that are used that maybe are a little bit loaded and ill defined, I guess would be a way to say it, that you might say it and I might say we might mean two different things, but we just all say them. And so we're gonna get into a few of those and break down what they really do mean before we get into the list. Do you guys have any opening Comments?
[00:02:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I think this was something that was inspired by the comment on Facebook, Jack, about, you know, us maybe doing something on Christ likeness. And you had sent over, you know, can we define Christ likeness? Can we do one on that? And I thought, I think there's more there than just that. You know, there's a lot of these terms that you just hear over and over and over in Christendom. You know, like you said, this isn't just church Christ. It's. It's in Christendom. You hear this and we just kind of assume we know what that is. And so it's like we're supposed to
[00:02:47] Speaker B: be like, define Christendom. I realize we say that and. Yeah, yeah.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: Christianity at large. Those who claim Christ. Right. Not church Christ. New Testament Christians, as, you know, those that have been baptized for remission of sins, but just the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Baptists, all those Catholics. Even Catholics. Yeah. I mean, you hear these across the board from people and it's just kind of assumed, oh, we know what that means. We know what, you know, Christ likeness means. Or we know what, even when you hear this is more church Christ, like a sound congregation, we're going to get into that one and what that means. So there's just these terms we throw around. They can become very cliche. There's power behind them. But we want to explore some of those and, you know, maybe bring them. Bring him into a new light and kind of kick it around. So Will. Any opening thoughts?
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah, not a ton to add. I mean, we.
Yeah, anytime. They're just kind of sayings or, you know, stuff that's just thrown out kind of with that nonchalantly, without thinking.
It is really helpful to. To define those terms. And a lot of the ones that we have on here, you know, are ones that, as I'm thinking about the sermons that I preached before, I've used probably all of these dozen times each.
You know, I know I've had lessons about find, finding identity in Christ, which is, I think, one of the more interesting ones to me that we're going to cover maybe later on down the list. Obviously, New Testament Christian is. And I'm not trying to just preview the whole list here, but like, New Testament Christian is one that is just embedded into, you know, the way that, you know, specifically, I guess this is the Church of Christ name, but the way that I, you know, I'm a New Testament Christian or, you know, that person's a New Testament Christian.
Gonna examine that a little bit deeper. So, guys, I don't know, are we. It looks like we're probably starting with this idea of Christ likeness being like Christ. And you know, there's we could have put down verse references for a lot of these.
For Christ likeness again, Romans 8:29 comes to mind, talking about being conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among brethren, Second Corinthians 3, 18, a couple others.
I think everybody knows to some degree that if you're going to be a Christian, part of that, a lot of that involves being Christ. Like I think it was C.S. lewis, right, that had the quote of, you know, basically us as Christians are to become little Christs, little versions of Christ.
What does that mean specifically? I think is and Jack, I know you were the one who brought this idea as far as the Christ likeness up as an episode. There was the what would Jesus do? Movement. But what makes this one interesting? And then I'll hand it, Jack, back to you to kind of give your thoughts on this Christ likeness. One is what version of Christ are you talking about? Because for the world, Christ likeness means something very different than I think probably what the three of us or, you know, hopefully most Christians would say to the world. Being Christlike is being tolerant is, being loving is being accepting is, you know, the kind of the quiet, shy, nice guy, meek and lowly guy. It's the guy who's never really going to say anything harsh. It's the, you know, you know, there's the angry Old Testament God, but then there's there's Jesus, the New Testament, you know, kind of again, pushover, like that's Christ, like according to the world, the way the world would define Christ likeness. And so that's where again, none of the three of us, most of our listeners are probably not going to agree with that version of Christ likeness. And so what version are we talking about? Jack, thoughts that you have on this initial one that we're starting with of the idea of being Christlike?
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah, Joel alluded to it. We got a message saying, and I'm not going to drop her name in case she wants to remain anonymous. It was a private message, but said, I asked this with respect and humility. When will this site speak about what it looks like to know Christ?
And I thought about that of like, we talk about a lot of things about Christian living and about the family and the home and in the workplace and in the school, like all of those kinds of things. And so it's kind of like, but we are like, I wasn't quite sure what that meant is it meant having a devotional life and a prayer life. Those are good things. You know, we talk about those as well. And so it's like where have we not talked about that? And I think that's maybe something we've done a poor job of, of emphasizing. All of this is about living like Christ. We have an episode on is porn addiction grounds for divorce. That's living like Christ. Because I think when I think of Christ, it's perfect submission to the Father in all things. That's. That's what Jesus came and did while he was here.
It's like the role that he has taken on and emptied himself. Philippians 2. And all of those things that Jesus has done for us. And so all of these things we're discussing to me are Christ likeness for other people. It's more of an attitude. It's more general behavior. Like just kind of how you carry yourself, I guess would be a way to put it. But I came across this article that I think actually was helpful in showing the disconnect. And this was by a Baptist guy.
Where is this from? I can't even pronounce that Huguenot.
But it's not like the usual Huguenot, I don't know. Huguenot Road Baptist Church website.
The title of the article was Biblical or Christ. Like that's a very weird distinction to make of those two things. And he quotes the little Christ quote from C.S. lewis like you mentioned.
But he says to be biblical means aligning one's beliefs, actions and teachings with the content of the Bible as a whole. Adhering to principles, commands. He says a few key aspects your scripture centered.
It's about laws and commands and its doctrinal fidelity are your biggest emphases.
He says a few key aspects of being Christ, like love and compassion, humility and service, grace and mercy.
And then he ends with ideally, these should go hand in hand. The goal of being biblical is to ground one's life in the truth while being Christ. Like, but then he says which will you choose?
That's kind of weird to me.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Don't love that.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it's like false dichotomy.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: But that brings me back to that message is it's kind of like we're talking a lot about biblical things and that might not look like we're talking about Christ likeness, but we are. Like when you are talking about some one of these niche issues, when you're talking about a wife leading, submitting to her husband and a husband leading his wife, we're Talking about Christ likeness. Christ is not a wife, but if Christ were a wife, what would he do? To me? That's Christ likeness.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think the concepts there I was with him until he takes it to the Christ, likeness just means be meek like Jesus. Like, to me, Christlikeness really does stand out from the James 4:17. It kind of comes to mind to him who knows the right thing to do, it doesn't do it. It's sin. And a Romans 14 issue, which is, is my conscience becoming more attuned to Christ? Am I becoming more like, what is going to please God? Because there are things that I could. Technically, we talk about this all the time on the podcast, like, can you bind that? You know, technically, it's not a sin. Like, it's not really about that. It's not about the system of laws and things like that. It's about the relationship, discernment and.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:36] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. My mind has really been on recently, and I don't know why. It's just come into my mind a lot. This. This idea of Abraham being a friend of God.
And we see Abraham get away with some stuff that's like, whoa, hold on. You know, we've talked about this before, but him lying twice about Sarai, and then I think she's Sarah for the second one. But either way, you know, lying twice about, yeah, it's my sister. And then he comes out and he's blessed. And you go, that doesn't even track. How does that even. How's that possible?
He's a friend of God. He, like, God knows I'm going, that's my guy. And that doesn't mean that God just winks. It's in like, oh, it's fine. But it does mean that God is on our side. He fights for us. You know, one of my favorite passages in all of scripture is Micah 7:7. And following where it's like, hey, I know I messed up, but God's still going to fight for me type of thing. And I love that framing of it. And to me, Christlikeness is that of, like, I'm a friend of God. I'm a man after God's own heart, as DAV called. It's not this. Well, yeah, he does a lot of good things. Like, yes, Saul did a lot of good things. The heart wasn't there because when it counted, when it mattered, he did his own thing. So Christlikeness is what pleases God. And that, to me, does take it more out of the realm of, yes, you can be biblical and you can also have a heart that's attuned toward being like Christ. Which means it may not be about prom is not biblical or not biblical. We talked about prom before as an illustration. Prom is a judgment call that you have to decide what is going to bring me closest to Christ. That's Christ likeness.
I want to submit to Christ in this and I want to look like I want to make the decision he would what would Jesus do? And the Bible may not fully tell me X, Y or Z how to, you know, how to come down on this matter, but I have a pretty good understanding that my conscience is telling me Christ would not be comfortable with this. He would not be okay with that. That is way more powerful in my opinion.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: So this is so interesting to me.
Which one leads to the other, I think is an interesting question in the sense of if you are more, you know, on the, if you're more biblically based, does that lead to the Christ likeness of the faith, mercy kind of the traits thing that. Jack, you're, you know, I don't have that article in front of me, but some of those, those emphasis. Points of emphasis he was making for each side or is it vice versa? If you, if you start kind of with those, the Christ likeness, the traits, does it lead to being more biblical? Kind of a parallel to this. I was having a good discussion with some guys that we do a Bible study a couple times a month, if we're able to. Some married couples do and they're in a prison ministry and they said we've got, you know, nine months, basically once a week. So however many hours that that is, where should we, you know, and you're kind of just asking our, our thoughts like what do you guys think is. Is the best kind of path to take?
And there's a lot of different options for that. Do you start, you know, from a Bible study perspective? Do you start with Jesus when you have that much time and walk them through the Gospels and show them Christ's love and show them that and then, you know, take them into Acts and the doctrine part? Or do you start in Romans and get them, you know, to understand that the salvation and their justification that they're a sinner and doctrine and then get them to Jesus? And so that's kind of. I don't know. That's really interesting. I'm curious if you guys kind of have an answer of like, again, just to relate it back to the biblical versus Christ like thing, which one leads to the other? I think I have my answer, but I'm curious what Yalls thoughts would be.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: This to me is where you end up with a very warped version of Jesus is where people come in and they kind of have their concept of who Jesus is supposed to be. And you see that in that guy's list there, right?
Of Jesus being Christ. Like means these things. Well, he left a lot out. Being Christ like is a broad spectrum of all kinds of things.
[00:13:11] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: And, and so this is where you really get, where people do the kind of Sermon on the Mount cancels out. The rest of the Bible thing is like, well that's Christ likeness. And so therefore David killing Goliath, we don't really know what to do with that. Just hey, turn the other cheek to your enemies. Like, okay, but there's a time and a place for somebody to be, you know, David and kill Goliath and that's okay. Jesus was okay with that. And you know, I've, I'm sure I've mentioned this before on air, but I remember reading a comment one time saying that when Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple, he was in that moment, he wasn't being Christ. Like, like, how can Christ not be Christ? Like, like that's kind of the, everything he does.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: Jesus had a lapse of judgment basically.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: And it's that thing where today their vision of who Jesus is supposed to be and how he's supposed to act didn't fit with that, with what the Bible actually said.
So they, they just kind of, you know, to use that illustration and they cut the puzzle piece up, you know, to make their picture. And so you have to start biblically. But on the other hand, it's entirely possible to get so in the weeds with the biblical text.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: That's where the Pharisees ended up essentially. Right.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: You don't come out with any Christ likeness. You don't come without any of any of the fruits.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go ahead Joe.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: No, no, go for it.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, yeah, Jack, you're kind of highlighting there the, the so many different aspects of Christ because I think what like the world and apparently this guy again, don't have the article in front of me.
What they mean, when they mean Christlikeness is basically like non invasiveness. Like if you want to follow me, great. If you don't, you know, like, you know, Jesus wants what's best for you. It's the consumer, you know, feel good version of Christianity that's just very, very non invasive. Well, there's a lot of elements of Christ that are, that were very invasive, calling out The Pharisees and flipping tables and, you know, telling Peter, get behind me, Satan, all these things like that. That usually doesn't make the Christ. Like, listen, my answer would be again, like, ideally you start with both, but it is a chicken or the egg thing. I do think if you start from a almost character trait perspective of like focusing on somebody who is merciful, who is kind, who has faith, then the doctrine stuff can come. Can come after that, if that makes it not after, but like, I don't know. I think I would be wary of somebody getting real grounded in the doctrine and those things. And that is where you neglect the weightier matters of the law as Jesus talks about. So again, that's a really tough one. Joe, I'm curious your thoughts.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: New Christians that come out of the world are on fire for God with. With very little doctrine a lot of the time. Right. That's not a bad thing. You know, they grow in that there are errors that can be made on both sides because sometimes you see that where they do kind of spin off almost into charismatic, like fervor for God, where it's all feeling and it's all heart for God. Like, I have such a heart and passion for God, but they had nothing to ground it too. And so it's like all of this energy that has zero grounding point, whereas the other one is like, I'm grounded for days, there's just no energy. And so you are talking, how do we get either one? Which would I rather have?
I think it's really tough to manufacture energy. I think it's easier to train that and push it into a specific area.
But we're talking to a bunch of people. Like, our podcast is for a lot of church Christ people that probably have been in the church for a while. We know we have some people that maybe haven't been, some people that may not be in the church at all right now. And that's fine. But for the majority of our listeners, I think it's those that are coming from our background, which is we were grounded more on the biblical end because we didn't have these crazy come to Jesus stories type of thing. Like, we grew up in the church. It's. It's a boring conversion and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I can speak from personal experience. Sometimes it can be very difficult to have that heart. Where we don't, we're not so myopic. But what it took is we referenced this, I think, on the last episode, like for me, that I Mentioned it before about my porn addiction. Like it took me really coming into contact with grace before I really understood the gospel, before I had that heart of man. I really need to do what Jesus wants because I have the book, chapter, verse for all of this stuff and I'm not living like it. And it was just this, like this dichotomy, juxtaposition, whatever word you want to use.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: The contrast, you had all that down
[00:17:27] Speaker C: right where it's like, I don't have a heart for God. I'm doing the very things that I. And you know, It's a Romans 7 thing. But like I have all the doctrine for days because I grew up in this. I even went to Bear Valley, had all this. And yet I'm still struggling with this stuff because the heart really wasn't right for God. And so I can speak to that and say that is really difficult. On the other hand, in getting out of it, I was able to stand on the doctrine and understand doctrines of grace and things like that. And that helped propel me toward having more of a heart for God. So man, I don't know, I'm him hawing on this one because I think there are good and bad for both sides, you know, sure of having that.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: I appreciate you reading the article Jack though, because that's interesting.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: This opens up another question, one we don't have on our list, but you guys have used the word a number of times there that I also don't think is often defined. Well, you've said doctrine a lot and it's kind of doctrine and it kind of sounds like doctrine versus practical living. And so let's talk about doctrine a little bit. Give your definition for that as a spin off of Christ likeness. Because I want to finish with a point on Christ likeness, but I think doctrine is very interesting in here as well.
[00:18:28] Speaker C: Doctrine would be the key teachings of the Church. I would say the key teachings of. Yes, salvation, of worship, of.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: You know, I think of law also like term.
[00:18:39] Speaker C: But grace, atonement, whatever. You know, all justification. Like those words as like the big five dollar church words as kind of doctrine. The typical day to day. How do we apply it? I think is where I would. Yeah, I see your point and kind of where you're getting at, which is those things are tied into doctrine just as much like what you decided first Timothy 2. Right.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Teach or Titus 2. Teach them the things that are, you know, for sound doctrine.
[00:19:02] Speaker C: It would almost be like the bones of a house. You know, the framing and the structure would be. I would consider the doctrine, but like actually putting the finishing touches, the cabinets and the wood floors and things like that, that's the living life. But the doctrine is the framing of, okay, I know what grace is, I know what baptism. I know my sinology or whatever, soteriology, all those things.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Because when you look at Timothy and Titus doctrine a little bit, you referenced Titus too. That is the practical living kind of stuff. And Trinity of the Antitus has a lot of practical living stuff. But I agree with you guys, when we say doctrine, we usually mean what worship is going to look like. Baptism, what church leadership, salvation. Yeah, those kinds of things. And so it's one of those, like, you go along with the way people understand a term, even if it's not, like, technically correct. But biblically, I think we should expand our idea of doctrine to those other things. And so somebody would say, well, you're just preaching doctrine all the time. And it's like, well, okay, but are you talking about practical things? Because if you are, then you're talking doctrine there as well. And if you're not, then you're not actually teaching doctrine. Like, there are people that just hammer on baptism instruments all the time. But are they teaching fully sound doctrine? While are they teaching what the Bible says? Well, go to Titus 2. Are they willing to read the next few verses there? Because it gets pretty sticky there pretty quickly. Are you teaching sound doctrine? Well, we don't use an instrument. We don't do that. It's like, are you women keepers at home? And do you exhort people to do that?
How sound is your doctrine? Right. And so, but that goes back to the Christlikeness thing is you can't be Christlike without doctrine, because then you don't know anything. And so where I wanted to finish on the Christlike point was let's talk in a practical setting. Let's say the workplace. We'll just throw that one out there. What does it mean to be Christlike in the workplace?
And you can use any practical setting, but what does that mean for you guys?
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Let me say you can pull in, you know, Colossians 3, Ephesians 6, like, do your work unto the Lord of. That's more Colossians 3 than it is Ephesians 6. But like, how slaves to treat their masters. And then, yes, you're working unto the Lord as though Christ is your master, because you know he is, but like, as though he is your boss. And so I think you take those principles, you say, how would Jesus show up as an employee? How would he treat his boss, how would he treat his co workers, and how would he get to the work? Well, he'd do it diligently. That doesn't mean that, you know, you can't ever crack a joke and take five minutes at the water cooler talking about something like, it means, you know, that's more of the law. Thinking about it like, I just got to do this, this, this, this. It's like, it means that I'm showing up as Christ would have me show up, which is no cussing. I'm not engaging in the worldliness of the culture. I am, you know, living and letting my light shine as much as I can, while at the same time, why is the serpent innocent as doves? But I'm also working on the Lord. I'm giving it my very best effort when I'm there and making sure I'm not cheating my boss. I mean, I think it's those principles that come into play of like, how would Christ be an employee?
[00:21:58] Speaker A: Well, I think it's all those things. I think it's the words you use. I think it's your behavior. Do you have integrity? Are you known as somebody around the office who is just kind of in the bare minimum, just, you know, scrolls Facebook for 20 minutes, you know, on company time, takes 14 bathroom breaks a day. Or you somebody who, you know, the company, you know, kind of has a reputation. This guy works hard, he shows up, he's on time, reliable. He's reliable, he's dependable.
And again, even beyond that, the words that you use, the conversations that you're willing to engage in, gossip or not gossip or stuff you really should be talking about?
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: And, you know, again, that's. That is where it's behavior, but it is also traits. Are you known as someone who's kind? Are you known as someone who is gracious and had a. You know, I think an interesting point brought up in our Bible class tonight is like, it doesn't always have to be everything doesn't always have to be an evangelistic outreach of, hey, come to church with me, or, hey, do you want to study the Bible? But one thing that can really maybe open some doors is just bringing up God and really every single way that you possibly can. Man, it's a beautiful day God gave us. Or, man, yeah, sure, I'm thankful to God, you know, like, just kind of bringing it up in everyday conversation.
So that comes to mind for me. I mean, I think it's all those things. Again, I think it's behavior, you know, the words you use, language the conversations you engage in, your effort at work, your integrity, your honesty, your dependability, all those things. I don't know if you had anything to add to that, Jack, but.
[00:23:25] Speaker C: Well, Jack, I'd throw one back toward you. You may have some thoughts on that, but you've been doing a lot of great work on, you know, you got a project going on roles in the home. And I think that's a big one because you referenced this earlier of like, okay, Christ may not be a woman, but there's still, it still is dictating that too. So you may have some thoughts on the workplace one, but I'm also curious your thoughts on like in the home, how does this show up Christ likeness, just day to day husband, wife stuff, even maybe from a children perspective.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean that, the WWJD wristbands and Bible covers and all those things way back in the day, that was like the definition of a cliche. But it really works when you just ask, what would Jesus do as a wife? Well, he's not. Again, he's not a wife. But he did submit to the Father, right? And he submitted in all things. And he did, you know, carried out that role perfectly. And he showed how to do it without grumbling and complaining, even when it meant going to his death on a cross and it meant those difficult things. He was also a husband, right? And laid his life down for the church and sanctifies the church, washes it with the water of the Word and all of those things that he does for the church as the head of the church and leading the church. And so. But you have to be careful with that because again, you can.
The, the servant leader thing, right? We can go in. Well, Jesus washed feet, therefore, a husband should never tell his wife no, like, hang on now, you know, like. And nobody says it that way, but that's kind of what they end up implying. And so, and with that, it's like, all right, what would Jesus do about, you know, I'm a husband and my wife is not, not doing her part. You know, she's not, she's got some sin or she's got some things where she's just not holding up her end of the bargain. All right, well, what would Jesus, I mean, we had that again, the episode last week about you're a wife and your husband has an addiction. Like, what, what would Jesus do in that moment?
And to go back to the, the biblical versus Christ like thing, what are you gonna do in that except open the Bible and you can look in the Gospels and you can look in the red letter stuff, but a lot of this stuff is gonna come from the Old Testament. It's gonna come from the Proverbs, it's gonna come from Paul's writings, it's gonna come from that. And that's how you know. And you start to just get a sense of what God, the way he thinks about things. Right. There's no substitute for living in the Word to develop the mind of Christ and the Spirit guiding you in those kinds of things. And so, you know, it's going to be case by case, but just asking yourself, all right, how would Jesus do?
What if he were where I am, right here? And so. And that's ultimately what Christ likeness is. So.
But yeah, so Christ likeness. A little bit of a side note there on doctrine. Anything else on that one before we get to another one?
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All right, this is one of those that you will hear more in Churches of Christ, A sound Congregation.
Actually, Christian Chronicle is running a survey on this. I don't know if they've done their report on it yet, but they. They had a little questionnaire. Like, what do you think when you see the term sound congregation? Is it a useful term? Things like that.
So what does that mean? Because it. It seems like it can mean a lot of things.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: I think this is where our doctrine thing comes back up, right? Because I think most. Most of the time, you know, at least with me when I say it, I'm. I'm meaning they believe what I believe on. Again, my word would be word I use be doctrine. But like the essential Teachings of Christianity. The essential teachings, I should say, of, you know, what we believe the New Testament would teach. A New Testament Christian almost used that one.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: To me, when I say sound congregation, that's what I mean. Again, we use. We already referenced Titus 2 that talks about sound doctrine. I briefly looked. My computer started slowing down when I tried to pull up my Bible software. So I didn't get to run a full search here. But sound congregation, sound church, I don't really think you see that necessarily those two words together hardly anywhere in the New Testament. But. But as far as what we mean when we say, to me, I think that's what we mean is like they have not compromised on doctrines such as women's roles in the church.
Obviously we would say worship practices or a compromised view of salvation or things like that. And I think that is kind of echoed by Paul multiple times throughout the New Testament. He talks about being carried away by every wind of doctrine, different teachings that would come out, whether it be Gnosticism or whatever it is that, you know, Christ didn't come in the flesh, all these things.
And so a sound congregation be one that, you know, lines up, you know, with what we believe the New Testament teaches is the way that I would define it, you know, kind of on the surface before this episode started. Joe, anything to add to that?
[00:28:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm with you. The instruments and women's roles is kind of the main thing that comes to mind. The struggle is, okay, let's say you have a church that gets those two things right there. You know, it's all men.
Yes. It's acapella worship. Yes. The five acts of worship are there type of thing, you know, but let's say they have some crazy view on,
[00:29:19] Speaker B: you know, something they're pre millennialist.
[00:29:20] Speaker C: Sure, Exactly.
Perfect. You know, pre millennialists or. Yeah, they're Calvinists. Like, would we consider them a sound congregation? Now, this is where it differs. This is where it gets difficult is like, would I worship there in a one off setting?
Sure.
You know, I'm driving through the middle of Kansas and happened to pull up to this congregation or whatever and it's okay. Sure, I think I can worship there because the worship I think is right. I'm not going to walk out. The worship is correct. Would I consider that a sound congregation if every last one of them were premillennialists and, you know, maybe Zionists that are. All their contribution is going toward building a temple in Jerusalem type of thing? Like now, hold on, you know, I don't know that I would actually consider that a sound card. So this is the difficulty in would I worship there in a one off setting? Sure. Am I going to place membership there? No. So would I consider them sound? No, I don't think I would. So even though the doctrine itself surrounding worship is correct, but now it's okay. So the key towards sound doctrine is they have to have their. Their theology right. Surrounding premillennialism. They have to be.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Amelia eschatology.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: Well, yeah, their eschatology has to be right.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Like, so here's the other tough thing before Jack, you jump in on it again, not to keep going back to it, but sound doctrine in Titus 2 is behavior based. It's. He's not talking about worship practices and do they get. Have their eschatology? Right. And so that's another question, you know, as I think about like, as we've talked ad nauseam on this podcast about setting a culture and creating a worldview for like, there's a lot of churches that, you know, there's not one worldview shared by everybody. There's 14 different worldviews. Behavior is different. Like none of that is shared. But let's say they worship correctly. They don't believe. They're not Calvinists, they're not pre millennial.
Is that a sound congregation by the biblical definition? And so I know I'm just kind of mudding the waters here, but again, sound doctrine for Titus is the home is husbands and wives and homemakers and teaching to honor and respect each. Like that's what he's talking about. There's a lot of people within churches that I don't think they share that same worldview all the time.
Would that not be. Is that not sound? I guess is kind of what I'm
[00:31:28] Speaker C: asking you just kind of muddy it further.
[00:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:31:30] Speaker C: Would we consider Corinth a sound congregation?
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I've had. Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:31:34] Speaker C: If you were to look back, would we consider that? Would. Would you actually take your family there and worship that boy? I don't know.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Lay out other.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know. You know, it. There's. This is the difficulty. And I think, Jack, I'm curious to get your thoughts. My mind goes to the leadership. You will be sitting, I'm sure on any given Sunday you are sitting around somebody who believes in pre millennialism. You're sitting around somebody who does not have their doctrine from Timothy 2 or from Titus 2, rather does not have their doctrine. Correct. Surrounding those things. I guarantee you that as a matter of fact, most churches don't have that. The women being keepers at home is just out the window. So as we're talking Titus too, like, there's already things that the older teaching, the younger, that doesn't happen either. So those things aren't correct and we already know that.
So does it come down to like the elders or the leadership has to be pursuing, though maybe not having it perfectly and maybe this where Corinth part comes in, they're pursuing, trying to get it right, even if they don't always get it right. But that is a slippery slope because you can really get into some deep water there of, okay, they use instruments, but they're pursuing the right. Like, well, I wouldn't go that far.
You know what I mean? So, Jack, what are your thoughts on this where Will and I have thoroughly muddied it?
[00:32:46] Speaker B: You know, we talk about Corinth a lot and this example comes up in these kind of conversations, like, well, you know, none of us would have been in fellowship with Corinth in the first century.
Okay. On the other hand, Corinth had had Paul with him a little bit and did not have the New Testament.
I think there, there's a little bit more expectation for a church 2,000 years later that has the Bible, that has the development of doctrine and church and everything that's come along that it's kind of like if a church today had a guy that was, you know, sleeping with his mother in law, we wouldn't need somebody to be like, hey, you know, you guys know that's wrong, right? Like, that's like they would just be a strike one. You're out kind of like you already know you don't need to be told this. And like, oh, you know, was that wrong? Was I not supposed to do that?
[00:33:30] Speaker A: You know, like they were infancy stage, not the mature Christian stage.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly it. So like the expectations on a church today I think are higher, but that it.
Does that mean there's no margin for error? There's no, you know, allowable disagreement or things like that. And so I, I think you have a helpful framing there of like a sound congregation for worshiping in. Once when you're traveling cross country, that's one thing. A sound congregation to be a member of, that's a different kind of thing. And it's kind of like how much doctrine are you going to be exposed to? You know, one you walk into on, on a given Sunday and they don't have the, the band on stage, they don't have the woman up there giving the sermon they don't have, you know, pastor, so. And so is the head of this church.
[00:34:12] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Like, cool. You can walk in and do that.
But then if you were there for a month, what all were you going to hear and what all things you're going to have? And so I was looking at it, and I did run the Greek search on it. And sound doctrine, sound teaching, those words are almost exclusive to Timothy and Titus. You know what's called the Passover writing anywhere?
[00:34:33] Speaker A: I didn't think. I didn't.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: I didn't see. Sound congregation. Yeah, sound church.
And so it's about the soundness of their teaching and whether people would tolerate the sound teaching and things like that. And so this was to church leaders saying, hey, you keep it sound whether the people are sound or not, but you just need to teach these things that you've been entrusted with.
And so the idea of a sound congregation, I guess, would flow from sound leadership, sound preaching.
Timothy and Titus, as the preachers, were supposed to be sound. They're supposed to have elders to help them keep people sound. In Titus 1, like, that's part of the elder's job. And so that idea is very scriptural. But as far as what it means, I don't love it as a term because it's very nebulous. It's very. It's subjective. Every person has their own definition of. Is that congregation sound? Sure. Well, what do you mean? What makes them sound?
[00:35:25] Speaker C: Everybody has their own line.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah, they're unsound. Well, why are they unsound? Well, you know, they had Pastor, you know, Susie so and so, who's a lesbian with purple hair. Yeah, that's pretty sound.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: They put a mic in the audience or something.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah, that. Or, you know, they had. I'm not even gonna drop a name. So and so speak. And he was banned from all the other things. And, you know, that guy taught such and such about, you know, this.
All that stuff we've been talking about, like, that makes the congregation unsound in some people's eyes. So to me, I don't like the term. I just don't find it a useful term. Because you. You have to ask the clarifying question.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Essentially, what people mean is.
I hate to, you know, boil it down to this, but, like, are those people going to heaven or not? Is basically what people mean when they say sound congregation.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Right?
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Right. And to me, that those are almost like different things. Like, are there churches that I would say are unsound for me to be a member of But I think the people are still probably saved. Yeah. You know, but, like, some people would say absolutely not. If they're not sound, they're not saved. And so, again, like, what are we talking about? Are we talking about saved? Are we talking about not saved? And so. But it's a term you hear a lot with. With almost zero. Meaning we're gonna.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: We're gonna meet this upcoming week. I want to make. I'm gonna hold these guys to it to plan out our next, like, 10 episodes. Non. Institutionalism that we've teased. We got to do it. It's coming. Would they consider, I'm assuming, institutional churches unsound from their. I know Not. Not all of them. You see, I'm saying there's a variety.
[00:36:51] Speaker C: There's a variety.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: I understand your struggle with the. The sound verse. Like, I agree with you. I don't think it's a great framing. I don't think there's.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: I said there's zero useful. It's not zero. It's just not.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: That's the struggle is, do we even need to be squabbling over that? You know, because if it is a matter of just visiting one time, then yeah, I think having an understanding of what. What you're allowed to or kind of
[00:37:19] Speaker A: what churches fellowshiping with other churches. That's where this comes in, though, is like, if we're right, if we're the elders of a congregation and we're wanting
[00:37:28] Speaker C: to, you know, we fellowship with that.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Correct. Like, connect with, you know, another congregation down the road.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: You're doing the area wide of the church that has the praise team.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. That's where I think this versus the
[00:37:38] Speaker C: church that just brings in, you know, the. The Freed choir or whatever. I don't know if it has a choir, but, like, I know. Love it. Christian or whatever has a choir that'll go around and, you know, do it on after a Sunday.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Churches or whatever.
[00:37:49] Speaker C: Real problem. Okay, well, we don't have a choir, but we. We allowed for a choir to come and so various stages. You know, everybody's gonna have their line. To your point, Jack, like, the arbitrary subjective nature. Everybody's got a line of, like, they were kind of pushing it. Oh, they dropped off. They're no longer sound. That's what makes it a very difficult discussion to have, because you're going to have some people that are very much. This is what it is. People in the Church of Christ that will be glad to tell you what makes up a sound congregation. I guarantee those are the type of People that will include our, our favorite discussions of alcohol and, you know, the Holy Spirit and things like that. That very. Like, they can't allow for any variation in.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: Well, think about the.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Think about the man, that's tough.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: I think about the black congregations a lot more spirit. Maybe they clap. I mean, I was sat in an elders meeting one time where the basically discussion was, do people who clap in worship, like, is that a salvation issue or not? Was basically the topic of discussion, the elders meeting.
And so, yeah, that's where, man, casting that net thinner and thinner and thinner, I do think is a precarious position. But obviously, yes, there are eventually things that you get to where it's like, yeah, you compromised your soundness at that point. Again, you got, if you're promoting, you know, being pro lgbtq, you got a woman up there speaking, got, you know, and that's the, that's the trouble is that's our list. That's my list. Right. Somebody else's list is going to be a lot longer, going to be a lot shorter.
I don't, I don't know. We are not necessarily giving a solution here, but it's very difficult, right?
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Because to me, it's not a fellowship issues list. It's.
But maybe like I said for some people that is that they're the same list. And I don't know, there's, like I said, there are churches I would consider unsound, but I think they're still brethren.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Brethren.
[00:39:36] Speaker C: So would you fellowship them in an area wide.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: If he thinks they're brethren, come our way.
But I might not go to their. Yeah, like, so that's hard, you know, I don't know. So we don't have an answer for you other than to say, I just don't like the term unless it's opening a conversation. Like, unless you're going to define terms
[00:39:58] Speaker C: well to the listener, let us know, you know, comment on the deep end. Obviously, I'd love to get your thoughts, but comment on YouTube or Facebook or whatever, like, what do you guys consider sound? How would you fix that conundrum of the arbitrary nature of sound? Is there a fix to it? Is there a solution? Maybe we're not seeing. Because it does seem like everybody's going to have their own definition. And I think that's where autonomy really comes in, is man. I don't know. You know, the area wides that's going to make for an interesting discussion on the non institutional is sometimes there can be helpful elements to not being on the institutional side of who's Fellowshipping who. But I know that that's a broad discussion for a different, different day.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Hey, folks, you've probably heard us talk about Focus plus and the Deep End. If you're wondering what that is, Focus plus is our subscription service available through Patreon. Every week, members get all kinds of Christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the Deep End, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for Think Deeper listeners, where you can submit your comments on an episode and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focuspress or go to focuspress.org/.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: All right, fellas, let's move on.
Looking at the time here, let's do Identity Christ. Let's jump. Yeah. Okay, you want to do that one?
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, let's jump to that one.
[00:41:31] Speaker C: So 40 minutes, man.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, this, this is one I, I've mentioned, I mentioned earlier, like, I know for a fact, I've mentioned I've used this phrase in my sermons a ton, Joe. I, you know, sat. Got to listen to you twice a month for a couple years.
Had the privilege of doing that, of course. And this was a phrase. This was.
[00:41:50] Speaker C: Yeah, sorry.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Those 47 minute on average sermons were great.
[00:41:54] Speaker C: Every Sunday best.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: You're never gonna believe the joke would be maybe lengthy.
[00:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
But yeah, I know you've used this phrase a good bit, identity in Christ and, you know, not biblical phrase whatsoever. I think it's sprung from this
[00:42:14] Speaker C: kind
[00:42:14] Speaker A: of societal emphasis on the idea of an identity.
You know, what is your identity?
You know, what do you find your identity, you know, wrapped up in all those things. And so John, I hate to just put you on the spot, but like, as somebody who, again, we both use this in our sermons a good bit. Like, what do you mean? Typically when you use. I have an answer as well, but I'll go cue you up first on identity in Christ. Like, what does that mean?
[00:42:40] Speaker C: I'm passionate about this one because I think we use this and have no idea what it means when we talk about that. It's like, well, it's supposed to just be Christ is your identity. Like, okay, what does that mean? You know, if Christ is just your identity, like, am I allowed to feel like I'M a good hockey player or I'm a good speaker or anything like. Or is it nothing matters, it's just Christ. And so we'll take that from Paul saying like, hey, I'll count it all lost right there. Just to know Christ and even go to like the Christ's power is perfected in our weakness type of thing in that second Corinthians 12 passage. And so this idea of my identity being tied to Christ, I think there's multiple elements to this, but the first key element is that, yes, Christ is overseeing all. We've already talked about what Jesus would do and things like that, that my identity is not going to go outside of those things. But I also think that what I mean by this is your relationship with Christ is at the core of your identity.
Now there are multiple elements to that. You being a husband, a father, a preacher, a, you know, for you will working at Chick Fil, A Jack, you're a writer.
You guys are both athletes in your own ways. Like all of those things, the hobbies that you have, the books that you enjoy, that all is. I think of it as like identity rings, as how I talk about it in therapy. Christ is at the center of that. Everything's going to come back to. My value is placed in Christ because He's the one that set that value. While we are yet sinners, Christ died for us at our very worst. He gave us max value.
So I think the value is set in Christ. The purpose is set in Christ. Everything that we do in life has value because of Christ. It's very much like Ecclesiastes where it's like, all is vanity, all is vanity, all is vanity. You get to the end and it's the conclusion. All has been heard is fear God and keep his commandments. And when you get that right, everything else has beauty to it instead of vanity. Like all of those things do matter because you're in a right relationship with God. So it works forward and then works backward. I think it's the same here, which is life has no purpose. Me being a husband, father, therapist, you know, hockey player. All of those things have no purpose apart from Christ giving me purpose. So of course it's at the core. But since he's given me that, everything flows from that. So it flows from a grace. It flows from a appreciation and gratitude that I'm grounded in Christ. That the core, he loves me, he cares for me, he values me. My relationship with him gives me purpose and value on a day to day, you know, day to day front so that to me is the identity in Christ, is that Christ is just at the core of your identity rings.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: You articulated that far better than I could.
I think. To me it's basically what is the.
When you think about, you know, somebody describing you or your, you know, use the word core, like your core descriptive traits, like what is it, you know, what are people going to list about you from an outsider's perspective? And I think this is where a lot of young people, I think this is why a lot of young people are leaving the church is because their identity, who they were as a person was Christ, was not anywhere near in the top 10 on their list. Being a Christian, that is, you know, following Christ, you know, being Christ like as we started with.
For young people, it is their, it's their athletic ability. For guys, it's their, you know, sex appeal, it's their popularity, it's, you know, any number of things. Their academic, their, their academics, how smart they are, what kind of school they can get into, all kinds of things that kind of drive their lives. Essentially. It's their purpose. It's, it's what, you know, again, that's how they see themselves. And sure, yeah, they go to church, but like being a Christian or being Christ, like whatever, that's not, that's not really who they are. That's just part of them. And so I think that's. Not to spin this in a different discussion, but I think that's why, that's a big reason why a lot of young people are leaving. If everybody, if every young person, if a 17 year old had exactly what you're kind of talking about, Joe, of like, yeah, I can be all these other great things, a great athlete, super smart, get into Ivy League school, whatever it is, because of the relationship I have with Christ, because the grace that he's offered or that God through Christ has offered, then yeah, I think they'd be way more grounded and I think leaving the faith would be a lot harder. Problem is they don't have that. And so that would be my contribution to kind of what you said there.
[00:46:53] Speaker C: And if I falter, Christ is at the core yet again, his grace is there to versus even if I'm a
[00:46:58] Speaker A: loser, versus, you know, if my identity isn't how smart I am and I fail, I flunk out of Stanford. Well, now what do I have to fall back on? Nothing. Right?
I don't, you know, go D1 in college football or something. So, yeah.
[00:47:10] Speaker C: Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:47:13] Speaker B: It's hard because like I said, under this framing I agree with everything you said. I think the framing is worth questioning of identity and what we've come to. And honestly, you can trace it back to. And it goes back before this. This goes back, you know, hundreds of years. Philosophically, you know, Russo and guys like that about, like, the self and what that means. But, like, you think about the Facebook profile, and that's where, like, the identity really became a thing of, like, who am I gonna have my profile picture? I'm gonna have my favorite quotes on there. I'm gonna have my favorite.
Yeah. My bio. Yeah. I'm like, this is who I want to project myself as to the world. And I'm a sports guy, I'm a music guy, I'm a movies guy, I'm a politics guy. I'm a whatever. And those are like identity pieces. And then we talk about, like, identity politics and what people like, the sexual thing. They say I identify as a, you know, like, it's. It's the things you're choosing, you know, the hats that you're putting on, the badges you're wearing, whatever, you know, analogy you want to use for that.
And there's a guy, Carl Truman has written on this.
Well, his first big book on it was called the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self.
And essentially our concept of the self is totally different than what it used to be. And his opening illustration on that is we ask each other, well, what do you do for your job? Do you like it? Are you fulfilled by it? Do you find it to be satisfying? And there's all these questions. And he says, but if I ask my grandfather that, who was a steel worker, like, he's going to say, it puts food on the table. And I'm sure you guys have heard me talk about that. It's a very powerful illustration, like the way we think of ourselves versus the way people used to think of themselves.
And so that identity in Christ is kind of one of those, like, it just comes back to.
Again, everything you explained, I'm on board with. But as far as, like, I think we overthink it sometimes and it's just like, well, who is he? Okay, I'll just do. I'll just follow that. I'm just gonna follow. And I don't. I don't know, I feel like we can get a little. A little too navel gazing, a little too inflective about these things rather than just eyes on him. And I think you see that come out in like some of the John Piper version of Christianity. It's incredibly self focused, even Though it's talking about God and his glory all the time. You're constantly looking at yourself going, am I enjoying God enough? Am I, Am I feeling right about my walk with God? And it's like, just look at God. And in a sense that will give you an identity. But you're not really focused on the identity as such. And so that again, that's not disagreeing with anything you said. It's just looking at this framing of how we understand ourselves today is like, is that good? Does that make sense? Is that.
[00:49:56] Speaker C: I think in a simpler world back then where you're like, your identity was tied to your family, it was tied to like naturally, it was ubiquitous. Like there was family of like moving.
Right. There's no concept. I moved to New York and got a job and forgot my family in Tennessee. Like, that didn't happen.
[00:50:14] Speaker B: There's a lot of, a lot of things that have been afforded us by affluence and safety that it's like, does that help a good thing? You know?
[00:50:22] Speaker C: Yeah, and I think this is one of those is.
I don't think people had. It's not that they had a ton of time to think about it. I don't think they had any reason to view themselves through, like, who actually am I? Because you never question that when you are part of a tight knit family that's out on the prairie or whatever. I know that's just one part of it. But like throughout history, people were a part of communes. They were a part of like a pretty tight knit community overall. I don't know. But then when you have something like Rome, look at Mars Hill, people would go there and they would have all of these thoughts on what the self is. And Plato and Aristotle and Socrates and such of understanding these things.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: Why?
[00:50:57] Speaker C: Because their affluence afforded them the ability to think about these things. Things I don't think in the average, like Dark Ages, Middle Ages, or even into the early 1800s, even early 1900s to some degree, until you hit the roaring 20s, I don't think people had time to think about those things. I don't think it was afforded them this concept of who am I? So then you have Freud come along and he becomes that for the average kind of modern guy of the, you know, who are you? The ID and the superego and the ego and things like that. But I think the affluence allows people to start questioning who am I outside of my family? And I don't think that that necessarily is a good thing, but it is a reality. That we're forced to deal with.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say. Where I think I would concede a point to Jack here is it is very individualistic, incredibly individualistic. It's my identity. It's, you know, again, you said you use the phrase navel gazing or self focus or whatever as opposed to collective, you know, whether it be family, body of Christ, whatever. It's very individualistic. What I, I guess what I would ask you, Jack, to kind of go back to kind of what we were saying earlier because that is just the way of the, you know, the way the world talks now. It's the way society. I know it's a. It's also kind of therapy. Ish. Like it's kind of in that vein about identity and such.
Do you think we should kind of steer clear of that verbiage? Do you think it's something we should lean into now? Just because. Because again, like I'm thinking from a young person, from a 17 year old's perspective, they're going to be told once again their identity needs to be found in goodness. Again, what gender are they or who they're sexual, their sexuality, all those things. So that's what they're going to be feeding or that's what they're going to have been fed. Should we try to throw all that up and say, you know what, forget this whole concept of identity and just pursue Christ or is that a little bit too above it all and should we come back to. No, you can have your own identity and that's great. And different identity rings as Joe speaks to, or different aspects of your identity. It's got to be rooted in Christ. Like what would your kind of lean to be on that?
[00:52:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I've probably used the phrase, but I don't love it. And I will tend to try and shy away from the identity in Christ phrase as such. I guess I think the direction things are going and we've talked so much about the appeal of high church and things like that that young people are going to. It's submission, it's losing yourself in something bigger than yourself. And when you're doing the identity thing, you're trying to stand out. And there was a movie I didn't see, it was a few years ago, but I understood the concept of it because it was by Bo Burnham, he was a real famous comedian. And the movie I think was called 8th grade and it was about this little girl who's like a vlogger, she's got her YouTube channel and all that. And Every night she comes home and talks to it and I guess the big reveal and. Sorry if I'm spoiling it. I didn't even see the movie. But it's like, towards the end of the movie, you find out she has, like, three views on all of her videos.
And it's like, that's everybody in eighth grade. You're trying to project something to everybody. You're trying to get everybody's attention. You're trying to. And nobody's paying attention because they're all doing that themselves. They're not watching you, you're not watching them. But this identity thing is like, oh, I'm trying to project something where it goes back to, like. Because when we talk about our kids and generational faithfulness, we want to steer them away from this identity piece. We want to steer them away from, like, I'm defined by being a part of this family and a part of this church and a part of this community, and I'm putting these roots down. And that's just something that's been handed to me, and it's a blessing. And we have bought into this idea that it's a curse. That's the Rousseau thing, that everyone's born with chains on them and you gotta get loose of them and that. I think a lot of Christian people view their kids that way of, like, I can't choose the faith for them, so I need to let them go and kind of do the wild oats thing. And hopefully they come back to it later on. Like, I can't, like, force them to do it, but I am going to choose it for them. Like, I'm choosing it for him every Sunday, and I'm choosing it for him every night when we do a devo. And I'm choosing, like.
And we talk about this a lot, our culture, like, the. What we do here, that is counter to the identity thing, right? Of, like, the.
And you can say, well, that is an identity, but it's one that's being handed to you. You're not. It's not one that, you know, it's like, all right, kid, blank slate. You know, just go out and try Islam and Hinduism and Judaism and Christianity and stuff. See what you come up with in atheism. And see what you come up with. It's like, no, no, no. We're Christians. We go to church, we worship God, we pray, we read the Bible.
Your grandparents do, Your cousins do, your aunts and uncles do, your parents do. You're going to. And that's great. And, like, you don't have to.
You don't have to go to the effort of finding an identity because you have one and you're loved and you're cared for and all that. Whereas the little girl vlogging to nobody is trying to get loved by an audience by creating an identity. And it's like, no, I'm helping my sons and my daughters build one. That's all. It's like custom made already.
This is very.
We're very far from the original question here, but I think it's very interesting.
[00:55:39] Speaker C: It is important because this matters a lot. Like, it's changing who you are for who we are and you are part of we. And so there's a protection element of that. There's a. Where I might push back a tad bit is like, I do think you see Gideon or you see Saul, who almost have an identity crisis of like, man, I'm on the least tribe and the least family, like, what, what do you want me for? Type thing. Like, you can see when God calls him to something, Saul has that. And again, Gideon and I'm sure there's others where there's just almost this like, really me, you know, and that's they are unable to fully be used by God. I don't know, I'm just formulating this thought, so maybe this off, but I feel like in that moment they did define themselves by their family, but God was able to use them outside of their family to some degree of like, okay, forget the fact that you're a son of Kish, and maybe that's the. The least of the tribe of Benjamin. Like, I understand that I can still use you for great things. And so in that moment, God doesn't separate him from his family. It's not like this is some huge, you know, 21st century moment that we have now woke moment. But on the other hand, there is a level of God can still use you outside of some of those things. So if we get too married to the concept of like, this is just who I am.
[00:56:46] Speaker B: Oh yeah. I think that's where it needs a shift at times.
[00:56:48] Speaker C: Right There needs to shift. And that's the difficulty is when you have individuals that have to be able to shift out of that to see their right, you know, and those that, you know, come from their families are not Christians and they have to break free from that to some degree and establish who am I in Christ. And that's where we say, come into the church. And the church should be that for you.
But everybody's going to have a reckoning moment of Do I believe this or just my parents Faith? You know, I think we have to get to that point. And who am I? Yes. Inside my family? Who am I outside my family? Because this is the leave and Cleave principle as well. You have to have somewhat of a strong identity to leave and cleave. You are going to be different than your family. You are going to have to make your own decisions. And so I agree with your point. I just think there are times where everybody's going to have to know who actually am I in the midst of this grand structure? I know I'm a part of it, but do I fit? It's the same concept of Ephesians 4 of Everybody has a part to play. Well, if you never knew that you were, even if you were the pinky toe itself, like, if you don't know what your part is, it's difficult to know. But once you know what your part is, that's the identity. It's all part of a grand structure. You're all part of the family, and we know that. But I know what my function is within the family. And so the identity is still grounded in a whole, if that makes sense.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: And that's part of the problem we have is so many broken families. And even families that aren't broken, like, looking from the outside in, but they don't have a sense of their roles and who's doing what and what the purpose of kids is. And all of these things, things that it's gonna have to be people recovering that. And to recover that, they're gonna have to have a sense of themselves. And it's kind of like this, hey, you're a white American Christian male, therefore, you're the worst person in the world. And how many young guys are like, no, I'm not. And even when my own, you know, parents or grandparents would be like, well, yeah, actually, that's not great. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna be ashamed of that anymore. You know, Like, I'm proud to be an American. That's cool.
You're recovering. You're reassimilating back into the identity that was our. And it's because, like, Saul, he was standing, like, standing out in a bad way. Like, he's. He's hiding behind the bags, right? He's like, I don't want to be a part of this. And it's like, but you are. Like, it was a reintegration to where he should have been all along, rather than I have to stand aside and go kind of be me. And then I'll come back in and fit. You know, it's like. And I. This is not like. This is not the matriarchal society thing of, like, sit down and know your place boy kind of thing. It's not that at all. It's just because as. As dads, it's our job to, you know, cultivate our kids to the point where they can stand on their own two feet and. And keep things going.
[00:59:23] Speaker C: And.
[00:59:23] Speaker B: And so, again, it's. I'm not against them having an identity. It's just like, where are they?
[00:59:27] Speaker A: There have been some bad fruits from. From the emphasis on it. The whole, I'm gonna go to Europe for a year and find myself. Right. I'm gonna delay marriage, I'm gonna delay kids. I'm gonna.
Yeah. Go find myself. I'm gonna find my identity. Not to mention, I mean, when you think about, you know, you brought up earlier, the kind of a millennial thing, in my opinion, but the I'm gonna be the Star wars guy. I'm gonna be the, you know, the foodie. I'm gonna be the most like, guy,
[00:59:53] Speaker C: the baby at all.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: You're trying to curate your own, like, Avatar, essentially. And. And that's your.
[00:59:58] Speaker B: That's like.
[01:00:00] Speaker A: I do think.
I think it's tangential related to this, and I think there's some bad fruits from that, for sure.
[01:00:06] Speaker C: That's why identity in Christ is brought up, is you should find your identity in Christ. But tangibly, we don't always know how to get there. Like, we're going to gravitate back toward what the culture is telling us we should have our identity in or what we think we should have our identity in, even if it's not the culture. But so many people like the whole bacon thing.
[01:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:23] Speaker C: Saying that people are that desperate to find their niche, to find something that causes them to stand out or to be the funny guy. And like, and this is. Sorry, this. Not to go off on therapy stuff. But that's also like a family systems thing in therapy of, like, everybody's gonna fill. You have the bad kid role. You have the goody two shoes, you have the jokester. You know, like, everybody looks to fill their role in the family. We do the same thing as we get older. It's like, where do I fit? What's my role? What am I trying to do? And it's such a subconscious thing that unless the parents are very deliberate on. This is how you can help the family. This is why chores matter and things like that is you're Part of this family. You don't have to play this role. Like you can just be yourself within this family structure. We're going to love you no matter what. That takes a lot of like deliberate parenting that most people don't get. And so yeah, they grew up with identity issues and so we try to commandeer it with the identity in Christ. But Jack, I think you're right that so often that is coming from a wrong framing of it and it's seeking it in a wrong way where it can be more navel gazing than helpful.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: It's trying to fix a bad frame within the bad frame.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: Well, that's what I was just going to say too is I do feel like, Joe, you could probably speak to this from your background. Jack, maybe you as well, just because your kids are older than mine.
I do think as your kids are getting older you, you can, number one, you should be on the lookout for. But number two, it should be, I'm not gonna say easy to spot but like, you know, you should be able to tell if your son for instance, is all wrapped up in how good he is at sports or if your daughter all wrapped up in how good she looks or you know, those things. And that's where I think seeing those things even at our kids age. My oldest is 4 yalls oldest is 7. 8, 7 I think, you know, kind of course correcting that as you see, like oh wow, my kid is placing a lot of emphasis on people telling them they're good at something or you know, how good of an artist they are. Like there's a million different things they could be. And so that's where I think, you know, from a practical standpoint with kids and stuff, that's something you can be on the lookout for.
[01:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Because that's, I mean you see him very early have the identity. I'm this, I'm going to be a horse girl. I'm going to be this, that or the other thing because they need an identity and it's like you can be bigger than that.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: It's cool.
[01:02:30] Speaker B: Like you can like horses and you know, all these other things. So yeah, it's, there's a natural inclination to it. And because we've had such father hunger, such bad parenting culturally for so long, people do have to go finding their own identity. And there was kind of the sense of like, well yeah, while you're looking for it, here's a good one and it is a good one. But like now that people have that, let's reroute them back to the system where things work a lot better and it's so much more natural and all those things. So this meandered a lot of different directions. I did not expect to, but it was a lot of fun. I hope the listeners enjoyed it. This might have been one of those. They shut it off 20 minutes ago.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: I don't have to come up with a real creative title here to get people intrigued.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna center it on the the Christ Likeness. This episode is gonna find its identity in Christ Likeness, but as long as
[01:03:22] Speaker A: I think it's a sound podcast.
[01:03:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:03:23] Speaker B: So we looked into, then we're good.
[01:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:26] Speaker C: But Jack doesn't like either of those phrases. He's a humbug here. He's not a big fan of sound. Not a big fan of identity.
[01:03:32] Speaker B: Hopefully our doctrine was good.
That's all of them. So that's the four phrases we went
[01:03:38] Speaker A: over for the deep end as well.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: That's right. So join us over
[email protected] plus but yeah, fun stuff. Interesting. Very interesting to me. I hope it was interesting to you guys. We'd love to hear your comments and so drop them below. But we will talk to you guys on the next one.
Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's FocusPress.
