What are Deacons for?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome into the Thing Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Joe Wilkie here, joined as always by Jack Wilke and Will Harab. We have discussed a lot of things on this podcast. We are what, 200 and we're pushing 250 episodes in, I think, which is pretty cool. We've covered a lot of things. We've covered a lot of territory surrounding elders, surrounding members, surrounding preachers, surrounding all sorts. We have never done an episode on deacons, which I find to be interesting. And so Jack has put together a great outline for us today on just kind of various questions surrounding deacons. It's a, it's kind of a role shrouded somewhat in mystery to some degree. As weird as that sounds like there's a lot of questions surrounding what is the role of a deacon? Is this just a pipeline to the eldership? What sorts of things should they be over? Are they just over, you know, should they be over finances? Should they be over Bible classes, things along those lines? We want to dig into a lot of questions, how they're appointed, things along those lines. And so this is gonna be a great episode. I'm excited for this one today, fellas. Opening thoughts. [00:01:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't, I don't want to detract from the intro. One announcement I wanted to share. We are like Llingley. We are choosing Texas this weekend. We are gonna be in Waxahachie, Texas. Wanted to make sure and got to get the announcement out. I don't know how many Texas listeners we have, but all three of us and my dad will be in Texas for a. It's like a four day seminar. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. What is the church's name, Jack? [00:01:32] Speaker A: Do you have Street? [00:01:33] Speaker C: Brown Street Church of Christ and so sorry, Joe, I should have told you that we should, I should have mentioned that before you got started, before you intro the episode. But yeah, hope to see if, if you're a listener and you're in the area, we will be there Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. So very much looking forward to that this weekend. Go ahead. [00:01:48] Speaker B: It's a full conference. It's, it's a, like classes going at the same time. You get to choose different classes. I mean it is a, it's not just a seminar where we'll get up and give a couple. Like I think all of us speak at least four times from Thursday to Friday night and then Saturday morning and then Sunday. And so there's, there's a lot of content available. So if you're interested, come down to [00:02:10] Speaker A: Waxahachie and Yeah, the full schedule is a bit of a mouthful for the site, but if you want the whole schedule of what, what happens when, what lessons are going to be up, it's cocbrrownstreet.org engage. So cocbrrownstreet.org engage. You can check it out. [00:02:26] Speaker C: Yeah, Gonna be great. So I just wanted to throw that out there just to get back to your question. Joe, as far as we're introducing the episode here, I'm excited because, man, how many different conversations have the three of us had about various things? I can't recall a conversation that we've had about deacons. So it's similar to the fact that we haven't talked about on the podcast. It does seem to be somewhat under discussed and I think it'd be, you know, maybe interesting for us to discuss why that is. So, yeah, I'm very, I'm very excited for this episode. We got a bunch of different questions we're going to look at as far as are there certain things that maybe deacons do under most congregations now that maybe it's not really a deacon's role? You know, is this something that, you know, should we view it as a stepping stone to elder. A lot of different questions we want to get to. So. Yeah, I'm excited about it. Jack, any introductory thoughts for you? [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah, not really. That's. Yeah, no, if I did, I'd just start going down one of the rabbit holes of ways we can look at it. So I guess we'll get into the scriptural introduction of it. We first see it, of course, in Acts chapter 6 as the apostles appoint men to oversee the distribution of bread. And then you get qualifications in First Timothy 3, and that's kind of about it. That's, as you guys say, there's nothing, tons of going. It raises a lot of the questions that we have, but it is one of those roles. [00:03:46] Speaker B: Right? [00:03:47] Speaker A: And so it's, it's a part of the church. It's a necessary thing. It's a good thing to have. But. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Well, how. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Sorry, go ahead. [00:03:54] Speaker C: How would you define it? So Acts 6, obviously, it's where we usually go. You're exactly right. Bring that up. So the word deacon obviously is not used there, but that's kind of the first, you know, place that we use. So the way that I would define deacon is a man who has authority within congregations, but authority over particularly physical matters. And that's kind of where the Act 6 thing comes to play is the apostles at the time were basically, you know, their take was we need to be. We shouldn't be leaving the study of the word of God and the teaching and preaching to go worry about this kind of physical matter that is important. They didn't negate the importance of it, but basically we need to delegate that to somebody else. And so that's the way that I would define it is, you know, a man that has authority over specifically, you know, physical matters within the church. I don't know if you guys have anything else you'd add to that. But again, with deacon not being, I was just about to look up like how many different times deacon is used within the New Testament. [00:04:53] Speaker B: 29, 29 times in 27 years. [00:04:56] Speaker C: And how many of that, I wonder, is translated servant as well? [00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, the new American standard translated deacon is only five times. And three of them are. No, four of them are in the first Timothy 3 passage. So almost all of these are servant. Philippians 1:1 says to the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons. So there's your other example of it. So yeah, it's not a word that is used in the same way we use it like as frequently, but it is there. It's something that of course Paul's telling the church at Ephesus should have and the church of Philippi did have. And again, as Will said, X does not use that word for those men. But conceptually it's, it's very consistent with what are called deacons in First Timothy 3. And so I think it is fair to label those seven men that way. But yeah, and to your, the, the way you defined it, Will, I think that is a good way of looking at it is people. There are non spiritual matters of administration in the church that need to be handled. And you need guys to handle that. You need guys that you can entrust those things to to go get the job done. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think this is why Diaconos, just a servant bdag has it defined one who serves as an intermediary in a transaction. So an agent or intermediary, one who gets something done at the behest of a superior. An assistant is. Is the Greek word there. So yeah, I think those two things can very much come into play. And as we get into it, fellas, let's open a first Timothy 3 because let's, let's just quickly read through the qualifications here. We are very familiar with the qualifications as elders. Of course, everybody knows, just kicking off chapter three, but in verse eight it gets into deacons. Deacons likewise must be men. Of dignity, not double tongued or addicted to much wine, or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of fate of the faith with a clear conscience. These men must also first be tested. Then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. Women must likewise be dignified, non malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife and good managers of their children and their own households. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. [00:07:13] Speaker C: So there's a couple observations that we get from that. Curious what jumps out to y'? [00:07:17] Speaker A: All. [00:07:17] Speaker C: The first one obviously, or I it's fairly obvious, is that there are less qualifications. The elder list is more lengthy, there are more things there. The other thing that jumps out is the first two that are listed there in verse 8. Likewise, deacons must be reverent and not double tongued. As I'm kind of scanning through the eldership qualifications, those are two that I don't see. So it's almost like those are, you know, obviously, you know, they're. You could kind of make an argument, you know, quarrelsome is one for elders and double tongue, you could, I guess, kind of argue is similar. But still those are, those are kind of unique ones specifically to deacons not given to much wine. There's a slight difference there with what elders are held to and then not greedy for money is a repeat qualification. The holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience is a. Is not repeated with elders and then blameless as well is obviously something that elders are required of. So some differences there guys. What jumps out to y' all from. From the qualification standpoint? Again, shorter list, couple new ones. Couple, I guess really one full repeat, another partial repeat. What thoughts do you guys have on the qualifications and how those play into the differences with elders? [00:08:29] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously these are supposed to be good guys, these are supposed to be trustworthy guys and I like where it ends up there. Of those who have served well, what we saw about elders who are sir, who serve well, that comes up later in First Timothy are worthy of double honor. And some people say that's about pay and it might be, but here it's that there is honor that comes along with it. You get a high standing, great confidence and so it needs to be a good guy and a good guy who does the good job well. But you're right in that it's a shorter list. Able to teach is not on here, which Kind of goes to that point about that you had had about. This is not necessarily about the spiritual matters. And I think hospitable is not either. Right. And that's a really. There are guys that, you know, James tells us, let not many of you become teachers. There are guys that don't need to necessarily become teachers. There are guys where that is not in their skill set. That's their talent. And so it's not, well, just show up on Sundays and we'll handle everything for you. The guy who can keep the building running is providing a valuable service to the church. And so it's his way of chipping in and having a part. And I think I have even been guilty sometimes of like looking down on those kinds of things. Like, it's all the spiritual kinds of things. And it's like, well, somebody's got to hand out the bread. Somebody's got to keep the building going. Somebody's got to do those things. And so, yes, it's missing the able to teach hospital, you know, some of those things that you brought up. But that's okay. It's good that we have a role for people that may be able to teach is not gonna be on their list. And not that a deacon can't teach, but this is one of those. It's a little less restrictive. [00:10:07] Speaker C: Well, what's interesting, Sar Joe, and then go for it. It's missing all the people skill qualifications as you. As you look at, you know, the elders. So you've got good behavior, hospitable, able to teach. All of those. Involve other people, not violent, obviously, is involving other people. Gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous like with the deacons. And obviously, double tongues can apply to other people somewhat. But like, there seems to be one of the levels to which elders are held to a higher standard. Joe, I'm curious your thoughts on this being the. You know, you're very good with people skills, obviously, it seems like that is a huge differentiating factor. Obviously the roles are different, but like elders, you kind of have to be a people. You kind of have to. Your people skills have to be really good. You can be somebody who's always looking to pick a fight verbally with people. You can't be somebody or you have to be somebody who is willing to welcome people into your home and open up your home. Deacons, you don't see necessarily those same people skill qualifications. And so I think that just building off of what Jack was talking about, that speaks to the idea that this is a role that. Yeah, you're not going to be asked to necessarily get up in front of people and teach or, you know, like there are physical things that you're going to be dealing with. And so that kind of sticks out. I guess that's the main thing that sticks out to me is just the difference, the things that are left out. And obviously that's not to say, oh, deacons can be violent and deacons should never have people. Obviously not that. But like it's not, it's not highlighted there by, by Paul. It's not emphasized. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Well, consider this as an illustration, you know, because I think this is very much taking place. Obviously first 75 goes into this. You got a widow, she's starving. You know, she can't take care of herself. She doesn't hardly have any. Let's modernize it. She doesn't hardly draw anything on Social Security. She's been a widow for a little while and she decides that she's gonna go shack up with another guy because he can meet the needs. He can, you know, he can kind of help. Very illicit, very wrong looking, basically fornicating. You need two people there. You need the deacon to go in and to make sure she's getting food, to make sure that her, you know, she's being provided for, to make sure that her hard needs, as they'd say, are being met. And you also need the elder to go in and to have that conversation of, hey, this is not okay. You cannot be with this man. The deacon's job is not to go. Now again, it's not that he can't cross over and go, hey, ma', am, you know, this is not okay to be doing that. But his main role, like the elder will answer to God on behalf of this woman and whether she decides to go shack up with this other guy or not, versus the deacon who I think will answer to God for did you let her starve? You were to oversee that. You were to make sure that she was getting her needs met in that way. Those are two completely separate roles. So from the people side of things, it's a lot harder to go in and have that conversation about. I know you've been through a lot. I know that you're really missing your husband. I know that you want to get your needs met. We're going to let the church handle those things. And you have to trust that the church will. This is not how you do it. But another point I want to make as far as it goes with this and Jack, you hit on this. I think sometimes we see deacons as elders, junior elders almost. And to your point, we almost downplay the significance of their role when we push every kid into, we talk about pushing every kid into the elder, into being a minister, right into the pulpit. I think sometimes we can push every person into being an elder as well. And there are times where, look, the guy doesn't have the people skills. To Will's point, maybe he doesn't have the people skills. Maybe he really doesn't want to answer for everybody else's soul because it's a huge responsibility. But my goodness, that guy is great when it comes to building maintenance. That guy is great when it comes to serving other people. And you know, he's got some time and maybe he's retired and he can do the Meals on wheels type of thing and go around and serve people. Like he's not going to answer to God for their soul, nor is he interested in that. But he would love to be able to serve in another capacity. Why in the world would we try to make that the pipeline to the eldership? He's not interested in that, which is the very first thing for elders. So I think it's good for us to. It's the same concept we talk about. We need Christian lawyers, we need Christian plumbers, we need Christian electricians, we need Christian landscape workers, we need Christian, you know, who knows what, realtors and everything else. We need Christians who are. There you go. We definitely need those. We need Christian therapists. We need people in their regular day to day roles in things that they're already naturally gravitating toward and good at. And to me, that's what the deacon is, is this guy may gravitate toward being a servant in a specific way. It does not have to be the pipeline to the eldership because he may not be qualified for that and he may not have any desire for that. But man, he's good at serving people. Man, he's good at building maintenance. So I think the shift we have to make in our minds is being okay, Jack, you said this. Well, being okay with a man who literally like his best thing that he can give the congregation is to be a janitor at the church. There's no nothing to look down on in that because his role is incredibly important. And you see that in this. For those who have served well, verse 13. As deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. The high standing is just good standing. Kalos is good standing and great confidence in the faith. Like man, he's helping the brotherhood. He's making a massive difference. He may not be leading people toward, you know, leading people's souls. That's okay. He still has a major reward and being in good standing with the brotherhood and with Christ. So we don't want to diminish the role. We don't want to act like it's kind of a lesser role to the elders. It's very, very necessary. It's just completely different in its approach. [00:15:23] Speaker A: There's lesser also to go with this, as Will said, some of the qualifications that are missing, the personal ones. To me it all comes down to trustworthiness. He must be a man of dignity, not double tongued. That means he doesn't, you know, he doesn't say two things. He's gonna, he's not being dishonest. Saying one thing to one person, another to it with somebody else. You got to be able to trust that, hey, this guy gives you his word, it's going to get done or it's going to be the way that he says it is. Because these might be people who are handling the money, these might be people who are handling resources. He's got to be able to do that. And so addicted to much wines, fond of sordid gain, other things that would limit his trustworthiness. Right. And of course, holding the mystery of the faith, the faith of the clear conscience goes along with that as well. And then comes back to his household. Husband of one wife, good manager of their children of households, things like that that just kind of all go to. Okay, is it there? But verse 10 especially is key. These men also must first be tested. Then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. That's what gives the, the idea of this as a, a title, a role, an office is. Yeah. Give them some stuff that they can do and if they can handle it, then bestow upon them this title. But more than anything, there is incredible value in trustworthy people. In having a guy that you can look at and go, he's gonna get the job done. That's a guy that we can just hand this over to him and not have to think about it again. Which is what the apostles were going for in Acts 6. Right. Is like, we've got a lot of work to do. We've got very important spiritual work. We just need to make sure this gets done. And so who are the guys that we can trust? They had the congregation, you know, like the, the people like, hey, let's select some guys that are trustworthy and we're going to get that done. I think that is something that every man should try to develop, you know, whether, again, every man not going to be a preacher, every man an elder, whatever the case may be, but to be a trustworthy guy, a guy of good character, a guy that everyone goes, you know, what if we hand the job to Bill over here, Bill's going to get the job done. Like, that's very, very valuable. [00:17:30] Speaker C: And the fact that the family qualifications are still there, I think matters to that point. You know, this is some. This is somebody who has shown, you know, to. He has proven himself from a leadership standpoint that he can lead something, you know, whether it's, you know, spiritual or physical. He's still leading. He's still shepherding his family, right? His. He's ruling his children well, he's, you know, not a womanizer. He's married to one woman. Those things matter too. And so that's. That's where this man of good reputation thing. I think we've been guilty before on this podcast. Obviously, the role of an elder is more important. The role of an elder is something that I think young men should aspire to. But when is the last time any of the three of us have said, hey, young men should pursue being a deacon? I know I probably haven't. And so again, it's an area of oversight, I think, across the board in the church Christ. But even for us. Question I've got for you guys is like, do you guys think a man. Obviously this is not in the qualifications of elders. So I would say just quick thought, quick reaction would be no. But a lot of congregations do have maybe not a requirement, but most guys who become an elder are deacons at some point. And so we kind of use deacon as a bit of a stepping stone to becoming an elder. We just spent 10 minutes describing how the roles are very different. Do you guys think, you know, it is best practice for congregations to maybe not require, but, you know, most of the time for an elder to be a deacon before they become an elder? What are your thoughts on that? [00:18:55] Speaker B: I don't think so. I can understand the. [00:18:58] Speaker A: You don't think so far. [00:19:00] Speaker B: Sorry, I don't think the man needs to be a deacon in order to become an elder. I think the. I can understand the logic of the stepping stone. Faithful and little faithful in much can he be faithful in this one thing. He's handling education or whatever else. Okay, great. You know, he's proven himself that he's great with handling the education, which is, in my opinion, should be an Elder's role. He is a great dealing with the people, the Bible class teachers. He's managed these struggles and people that are kind of complaining. He's managed that very well, man. He's been very faithful in those things. And that would make really good elder material. He's already got the husband one, wife and kids thing down. So the stepping stone. It's not that big of a leap to go from the deacon if you have the qualifications met, but you have to have that bent toward people, toward managing the difficulties that come with holding people's souls in your hand. And if the man is qualified, great. But I don't once again think that that needs to be a prerequisite because some guys, I would almost illustrate it, like, you know, you got a kid who's really good with his hands, working with his hands. And what we do in this culture is like, but you got to go to college. And so you shuffle him into college. Like, no, he's really good with his hands. Let him go be a mechanic. That's what he wants to do. Like, why are we shoveling him into college? That's not really what his forte is. It's. It feels sometimes that's the case is as we talked about. So I think you can have a guy who is just built for college, quote unquote. You know, he's just built for there. There's nothing better or worse about it. It's just he's really good with people and really wants to serve as an elder, wants to help other other men. And maybe he is not Mr. Servant Guy that goes around and maintenance his building or whatever. That's okay. That's okay. So I know that's a bit of a him hawing approach. I think it can happen. I don't think it needs to be a prerequisite to happening. And I don't think we should be viewing it as okay, let's just look for elders amongst all our deacons. No, if a man's serving in that role, it's actually hurting the church to take him out of a role he's perfectly suited for to go do something that maybe he's far less suited for. [00:21:00] Speaker A: In just three verses 2 Peter 1:5:7, the apostle Peter lays out a divine blueprint for spiritual growth. Yet these Christian graces are often quoted far more than they are understood. 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Yeah, I think it makes sense the way that it has become but you're right and I don't think most, I don't think it's generally held that a guy when he becomes a deacon is just going to be an elder eventually. Like there are guys that just stay deacons and that's okay. The idea that an elder should have proven himself in service to the church in some way, to me I think we'd all agree is pretty self evident. But that doesn't necessarily have to be in the deacon role. You know, it could be in preaching, teaching, things like that, but a lot of times they'll give that guy a deacon role. Which I think goes to one of the other questions we have here, we'll get to in a minute about are those deacon kind of roles or not. But yeah, I think it, like I said, it makes a lot of sense to me that the two are so often connected that rarely does somebody become an elder without being a deacon first. It seems at least anecdotally. But yeah, I don't think it's [00:23:03] Speaker C: it [00:23:03] Speaker A: required but I understand why it happens. Will. And what are your thoughts on that? [00:23:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I not, not much to add. I, I do, I don't think it's required and to be fair, like you said, I don't think most congregations do require required or anything but I think there's either way is fine. I think with how different the roles are though, I don't think it's it needs to be a requirement. I am curious though as we kind of to move us into that next section that you previewed a little bit there, Jack. The question we got on the outline is what kind of work should they be commissioned for? Both of you have already alluded to maybe there's some roles that deacons currently hold in congregations that they don't need to hold. And that's kind of what. Just to get us in that discussion, where do you guys see the most misalignment of roles? For instance, there's that debate of should the elder, should the elders decide the church's budget, what the church spends money on, or should the deacons. Every church that I've been a part of, the elders were the ones that decided the budget. That seems to be a pretty physical matter, you know, but however, the church's money is also, that. That's. That's a pretty big deal. Like, that's a very much a very central component of the way a church operates. And so I think that's why a lot of congregations have the elders take care of it. So I don't know where you guys want to start with this. Joe, you mentioned education as well. That's, you know, one that a lot of. There's usually a deacon over education. There's usually a deacon, even with a youth minister. Sometimes there's a deacon over youth or, you know, things like that. So, Jack, I'll hand it back to you if you kind of want to preview, you know, any thoughts that you have or questions, a question surrounding this idea of, like, again, the. How do the roles align? Like, where. How should the roles be distributed, I guess, or jobs be distributed is a better question. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Right. Like going back to the apostles example, how much oversight did they exercise over the distribution of bread? And I guess if one or two of them had not been distributing the bread properly, weren't showing up to do the job, were hoarding the bread or getting it to the wrong people, they got corrupt or whatever else, I guess that would come back to the apostles to handle that. And so that. Obviously that's not what happened, but I'm just workshopping in my head how this would work. So I do think deacons ultimately answer to the elders on things like that. But there also needs to be the level of which the elders hand it off and the division of labor. Again, the spiritual work of the apostles there in Acts 6, the spiritual work of elders, of shepherding the flock doesn't need to be micromanaging the things of the building the budget, things like that. But that also means that they shouldn't be putting their job onto the deacons. And so where there's a deacon of education or deacon of youth ministry, things like that, that to me is interesting. I'm not saying it's like, wrong, but it's like, are we missing what this role is supposed to be? Are we giving Elder jobs to deacons and deacon jobs to elders, I think is worth considering to keep the division of labor here. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Those are the two that came to my mind is the money and the education. Some of the other ones can be fairly mixed, which we can get to in a second on what else they can do. But I'm with you, Jack. I happen to agree with that of man who is supposed to, who's going to be answering to God for how a person believes or how a person acts upon their beliefs within the congregation. Elders, you know, not the deacons. And yet the education which is preparing people for that and teaching people, that falls to the deacon. And he's not going to, as best I can tell from the text, I don't think he answers to God for that. It'll still go to the elders. On the other hand, I think where the money situation, the way I view it is, I think it should be a deacon's role. I think deacons should be over that. The elder is over the deacon's soul. And if the deacon is a Judas and he's mishandling money and taking from the money and things along those lines, we got a spiritual issue at play. But if he is a man who's been vetted clearly from the text, you know, he's a man that knows what he's doing, maybe he's a, he's a guy in finance, he's great when it comes to money. Yeah, you could talk with the elders because there's an overlap of the spiritual needs of the church obviously as it pertains to money. By and large we have a man who's going to oversee those things, make sure that the church budget is going according to plan and the elders have a lot more bandwidth to focus. One of my main issues from what I've seen at congregations, I'm not denigrating anybody, but is that when you give elders a lot more of the deacons role, they don't have near the bandwidth and time to do the things that elders are supposed to do. And so they're doing the deacons role, deacons are doing the deacons role. Who's doing the elders role a lot of times the minister, the preacher. And when you have a young preacher, I'm 32, I have no business leading, you know, people spiritually. When there's a 60, 65 year old woman or a, you know, 78 year old man of the congregation who's really struggling, that's where elders need to be able to come in and to shepherd these people. Because they once again will answer for their soul but also their, their elders. They're men above reproach ministers don't have. There's no qualifications in scripture for who gets to be a minister. So it's a real scary thing to hand the congregation over to a young man even my age and down and expect that they're going to be able to fill in the gaps that elders are leaving because elders are too busy doing some of the deacons role. So I just think it's a call to say let's figure out the delineation, the tasks in the workforce here, the workflow, who's doing what and I think the things, if it comes into play of will I answer to God for this on behalf of this person's soul, I. E. Education. Yeah, I think that needs to go to the elders. If it is, is this going to benefit the church, you know, in some tangible way, then I think it needs to go to the deacons. Something along those lines might be how I look at it. [00:28:37] Speaker C: So I think a good litmus test for this is what are you, what are your main agenda points in your elders meetings? I've sat in elders meeting. I've sat in plenty of elders meetings but obviously not elders meetings where I'm, you know, I'm just a part of the eldership. I think if you're on a part of an eldership and your agenda talking points are maintenance, improvements to the building and you know, how much money should we send to this missionary or you know, things like that or even, even planning events. Like a lot of the elders meetings I've sat in like those were the types of things that were covered. Is going to send this much money here. We've approved this, you know, light to be replaced like stuff like that. It's like if that's all you're discussing in your elders meetings, I do think that's basically a glorified deacons meeting. And I'm not, I, you know, always say this. I hate putting myself in the shoes of an elder when I've never been an elder before. I'm certainly not qualified at my age. But man those elders meetings, when you talk about souls and you talk about struggles that the congregation is facing, need to talk about man this, you know, how are we going to care for this couple in their struggling marriage or man this couple's really been going through a hard time with their kids and medical issues. How can we care for their soul? Or man you know this family, their, their oldest is going off to college here in A few weeks, let's, let's all maybe try to sit down with them, go take, take him or her out to coffee before they go off to college. And really like that's the type of stuff that I want my elders to be discussing in the elders meetings, not, you know, should we approve an elevator installation type of thing. One more follow up on the money side of things though, because I would agree, I think Joe, the time point was the one that I was going to bring up and that is like elders that are having to spend, like I, I sympathize with elders who obviously most elders don't get paid. And so yeah, a lot of them retired and they got plenty of time, [00:30:24] Speaker B: but some of them aren't. [00:30:24] Speaker C: And you know, they are working 40, however many hours a week. They've still got a family, a wife to take care of and then to do other spiritual things on top of that without compensation. Yeah, that's a lot. And so if they're spending a lot, I mean every hour that they spend, you know, dealing with or worrying about some kind of physical money maintenance or whatever concern, that's one hour less they're going to be spending care of people's soul. So that's exactly the point I was going to bring up. I think elders best case scenario, elders time are completely freed up to just once again take the kid who's about to go to college out for coffee, have people over to their home, you know, meet with people who are struggling, Bible studies, things like that. I think that's the number one thing, the only follow up question I'll have on the money side. And Joe, looks like you have a thought, so I'll hand it back to you here in a second. [00:31:08] Speaker B: No, you're good here. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Is, [00:31:11] Speaker C: is, is there something to be said for the elders deciding the majority? Like again, like where the church spends their money, Obviously that can be a big disagreement depending on institutional versus non institutional. That's a really big deal. Like how much money we send to this missionary or like, you know, how much really even, you know, salary, how much we pay our preacher, stuff like that. Do you think elders should have absolutely no say in that at all? That since that is, that is, that is physical, like that's not a spiritual concern, that is a physical concern. Do you think elders should be completely above really any money discussions and that should all be taken down to a deacon? Or do you think again, like they're not reviewing the budget necessarily in their, in their elders meetings, but you know, they might have a say on Again, a big picture money concern. What are your thoughts on that as it relates to the elders role? Which I know now we're kind of talking about elders, but like, the delineation here is important. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Right. And that's ultimately the buck does stop with the elders. And so you're just going to expect them to have final say on some of these kinds of things. On the other hand, you'll see situations. And I'm aware of guys in ministry, I know the elders are very. Some of them that have been retired for a while or whatever, very out of touch with the financial stuff. And so, oh, well, the preacher, he can raise a family on 45,000 a year. Right. That's not going to happen. And so on the other hand, that doesn't mean a deacon gets to come in and be like, we're giving him 120, that's the end of it. And so there's got to be some push and pull of each side getting a say, each side allowing for the other one to have their input or whatever. And again, the buck does ultimately, when God's going to ask a conversation or a congregation, what did you do with the resources that you were given? The elders are going to be the first ones to answer. But they. So I guess it's somewhat up to them, like, how much are you entrusting these guys? And if the answer is none, then why are they there? I think there should be some sense of. And it's also the trust but verify thing. You don't hand one guy the keys to the church is fine. Like, that is a no matter how much you trust him, that you don't do that. And so that's not what we're talking about. But I do think there should be a lot of opportunity for men to take these things off the elder's plates as much as possible. [00:33:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker B: I think the unilateral idea of just giving a guy complete power obviously is not good. I think the guy should be able to establish budgets, things along those lines, and bring it to the elders for them to review. I think the elder should be over. You know, the contribution is an inherently spiritual thing. And I'd also say that if you got a millionaire coming to your church and he's just putting a 20 in the basket every single week, in my opinion, I think that's something the elders can be like, hey, what's going on? Maybe he's the most philanthropic guy in town. He's given other places. But I also think that that's a spiritual matter. So they are over money to some degree. They're over how people manage certain things to some degree. Because there's a lot of people, according to First Timothy six, few chapters later, a lot of people that get in trouble with the love of money. And so, yeah, I think the elders can be over those things. And that means they do play a part in where the contribution as a spiritual entity does play out. But on the other hand, I think them having to make every last decision, put together the budget, this is what we're doing. Here's what we're spending on. I think all of that, the legwork, so to speak, should be done by a deacon, maybe two, maybe three deacons that are doing those things. But they are getting final say to say, are we using the church's funds to the best that we can? And they're reviewing the decisions that maybe a few of these deacons are making that way. There is a. Again, it's not a one or two guys running the entire show. They do answer to somebody. But the elders aren't doing all the legwork of putting together the budget and taking all of their time away from serving others to do that. And there's an idealism to it. What I was going to ask, though, is, you know, we kind of kick around these ideas. I think we have a very strong understanding of all the things an elder can do. Will you just spoke to that man. They could be doing Bible studies, having people in homes, doing, you know, we probably rattle off a dozen things. We've gone through education, which I think maybe should be kind of removed from the deacons personally, but education, we've talked about the finances. What other. And building maintenance. What other areas do you guys see as maybe where deacons could step in, where they currently do, where you see it in congregations, but also where you think deacons may be able to help that are not being helped. If there's any of those that are not currently being served by deacons. I mean. [00:35:33] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, a couple. Couple that come to mind. You know, we're. A lot of us on the podcast are fairly anti program. I'm probably the least anti program one of the three of us. However, you know, programs like making sure that when. Which I know some congregations, women run this one, but like when somebody has a baby, for instance, or somebody's going through some health struggles, like making sure that the congregation is organizing meals for that for that family, that's a physical need. Right? Making sure that, once again, if somebody's struggling financially, and that's kind of what was happening in Act 6 is that the widows are being neglecting the daily distribution that there's somebody there who's going to catch that mistake and somebody's going to handle that. And so I think from a, you know, making sure people are served perspective, again, family that's sick, family has a baby, giving, giving food. I also think, you know, when it comes to, you know, the administrative side, so, like, yeah, the elders being over education, like we're going to decide who, you know, or basically like what gets taught. I don't think it's out of bounds for deacons to kind of put together the administrative plan for that. Okay, this quarter it's going to be this teacher in this room, for instance, like the elders don't need to be worrying about that. That's just one example. Obviously, order of worship, that's a pretty, you know, depending on how big your congregation is, like that's, that's not something you want to throw together on Sunday morning. Like, hey, can you do the opening prayer? Hey, do you want to lead singing this morning as we're seven minutes away from worship? Like, you don't want that. You want to be prepared for worship. So in order of worship, that's not a big, big role, but like, you know, making sure that, that you are well prepared, that everything is decent in order for worship. Obviously, again, bigger congregations have security things to worry about. Audio, visual. Yep. AV stuff. And so those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Again, these are physical things that, you know, the bigger the congregation is, the more things are going to be needed. Yeah, that's, that's kind of what I got. Jack, what thoughts do you have on that? [00:37:25] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, part of the AV thing that extends from there is that your online presence, your, your web guy, your social media guy, depending on how much your church has, and a guy, it doesn't necessarily have to be a deacon. Maybe the best guy in your church to handle that is a 17 year old who's really passionate about and has the skills or whatever. But who's he answering to? You know, like who's. Because he's representing your church publicly. And so that's, you know, maybe having a deacon to work with somebody like that or whatever to make sure those kinds of things get done. I think that is one of those kinds of roles that is very good to delegate to somebody and just keep an eye on how's it getting done, what's happening with it. And the other thing is with all of these, it goes Back to the qualifications we read. You want trustworthy guys who are gonna get the job done and you don't want it to be. And maybe this gets us into one of the other questions. Yeah, we appointed this guy. He did a little bit, and then we haven't heard much from him in five years. These should be things that are ongoing. And this is a question that I haven't necessarily spent a lot of time on, but I know some people have of. Are these appointments that are made for a task or is it a permanent title? And so Act 6, let's say that that's not really a thing anymore. They've got the distribution of bread that gets sorted. They're not doing that anymore. Are those guys still deacons of the church? Or is it like, all right, mission accomplished, you're done, you're out of that role, or do you just continue on as a deacon? And so if it's all right, we appointed a guy as a deacon to, I don't know, deal with some building maintenance thing. But that's taken care of and we don't. There's nothing really left for him to do. Does he remain a deacon? Well, I don't see any reason to take him off of being a deacon. But on the other hand, he should probably have something to do, right? I mean, that's kind of the way I would look at it. Hey, guys. Jack here. I'm excited to tell you about my new book. You are the Christian's Assurance. For too many years, I have run into Christians who aren't really sure where they're gonna go when they die. They don't feel like they can say that they are righteous. And so I set out to write a book to give you confidence and assurance of your salvation. It's laid out in 13 chapters for churches to study as a Bible class with discussion questions at the end of each chapter. And of course, you can just read it on your own either. It's for individuals, it's for classes. However you would like to approach it. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it on FocusPress. We offer discounts for group sales of it in groups of 5 and 10 on Focus Press. So if you're gonna study it with your church, be sure to check that out and get that. Deal. So be sure to check out. You are saved today, once again on Amazon and Focus Press. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I was looking at the text, you know, going back to that. For those who have served well as deacons. If it had said for those who served well, we would have seen that maybe it was just a one time thing. To your point, they did what they were supposed to do. They met a need, they served well. Those who have served well seems to indicate that they're still kind of serving in that role potentially. Maybe this is parsing out a little too much, I don't know. But I think to go to this length, to have this high qualifications, it is something that would stick around in my opinion. [00:40:35] Speaker C: Seems to be an office to hold type of thing. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:37] Speaker B: And I would almost look at it. The first thing that came to my mind maybe this is a ridiculous parallel here. First Corinthians 16, there's giving, right? Do I think that that was a one time thing or do I think that Christians are supposed to give? Well, yeah, I think Christians are supposed to give. I may have. We've talked about that a little bit before on whether it's an act of worship or not, whatever it may be. Either way, in First Corinthians 16, it was for a very specific purpose as to why he was coming to get that. But that doesn't mean that there's not other purposes that can be served in Christians giving. And so it's the concept of like maybe this deacon goes in to serve a very specific role and maybe that's met doesn't mean that he can't tangentially serve other roles or continue in his role to help when those needs arise. It just may not be a hey, you're needed every single Sunday to do xyz, but you're the guy that's really good at this. And we're going to have one of these things pop up every, you know, two, three times a year. You're going to be the guy that's going to go figure this thing out, even if it's for Will. As you talked about the. Well, I was also thinking, and I think this fall, maybe more under elder, but like a lectureship or something where you are in charge of making sure everybody, all the speakers get the logistics side or whatever the logistics side of things. Okay, that happens once a year at your church maybe, but that's still a role that needs to be served. So maybe he's logistically really good at that and he could be logistically really good at setting up baby showers. And so the logistics guy is used a few times, but it's not going to be an every single week thing. He's just used as needed almost. But he doesn't stop being a deacon in the meantime. That's my conceptualization of it does that make sense? What are your guys thoughts on that? [00:42:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I don't really have a ton to add. I mean as far as the permanent title or I, I would say it is indicated to be a permanent title. Jack. My thought would be if, man, if the guy's got, if the guy kind of did what he was assigned to do, surely there's something else that he, you know, that another job to, to be, to be filled, right? There's something else that can be done. And so maybe that's where the, maybe we need to be a little bit looser with the kind of parameters of what the person's role is. Oh this, this person's a deacon only over this, you know, for whatever it is, man. Maybe there's a role that pops up. I mean is there a deacon over miscellaneous, like stuff that doesn't fall into any, you know, category that we normally have? Like those are things that obviously are typically just going to get kicked up the chain to the elders if there's no deacon over it. And so I would be, you know, in favor if somebody is a deacon and maybe something smaller that just doesn't get a whole lot of run, so to speak, you know, being, keeping that role flexible, I suppose. So that would kind of be my thought on that. [00:43:06] Speaker A: All right, so not to transition too hard here, but one of the interesting questions raised by what you have here. And again the only two passages we have is how are they appointed? And in Acts 6 it was by the congregation was to name men for the apostles to essentially review and work on. And so they he says in verse 3, Therefore brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the spirit and wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. And so verse five, the statement found approval with the whole congregation and they chose and it gives the list of these and these they brought before the apostles and after praying they laid their hands on them. And so it was the congregation kind of did the appointing. Now in first Timothy three, Timothy is told to over appoint the elders and then it goes straight into the deacons after that. And so it kind of seems to carry on as well. Or then again I'm sorry, I'm mixing Timothy and Titus. Timothy is not told to appoint them, I don't believe. But it's, you're given the qualifications and then Titus is the one that's told to appoint elders. So we just kind of assume this is a carryover. How are deacons? Is it? And this is my concept of it. And you guys can pick holes in there, see if this makes sense. A need is identified. The elders are to you kind of know your flock, you know who the people are. But like, what do you say? Nominate? Hey, who are we gonna have do this? Or do you go pick a guy for the job? I think the. In the thing that makes the Act 61 different is there was a very specific one that they needed a handful of guys for, and so that made it easier. [00:44:48] Speaker C: And there also were not, what at the time? Elders. [00:44:51] Speaker A: There weren't elders. So the apostles were kind of functioning as elders in that sense. But the other thing is this is also a startup church where if you've got a church where there's already eight deacons, you're not gonna. Every time you need something, maybe put it out and all right, let's just choose from the sea of people and we'll pick six guys. That's not really how it works. And so I think the, the standard model right now is elders picking guys, telling the congregation, hey, we're nominating this guy to do this role. That makes sense to me. I don't think this is something we need to overcomplicate, but I am trying to be faithful to the text. Do you guys see any different ways to go with that? [00:45:27] Speaker C: I think the Acts 6, we just mentioned it, but I think it's. It's definitely instructive. But several key differences. Obviously, the apostles were kind of functioning as the main authority figures in the church because, you know, it was a new church. They had walked with Jesus literally, so that they had a higher ranking, so to speak, higher level of authority, and elders weren't in place yet. I do think it makes sense if elders are in place, that they are the ones that are primarily leading the charge on appointing deacons, because, yes, those are spirit, those are physical matters. But anytime you're putting somebody in authority, in a spiritual capacity, in a congregation, that is a spiritual measure to some degree. I think even if it's, hey, this person is purely over again, building maintenance or something, yeah, that's a physical matter, but this person is going to be holding an authoritative role. The qualifications themselves are very scripturally based. And so to me, it just makes sense that the elders are going to very similarly. Like if you're going to hire a preacher, you're not going to farm that out to a deacon, most likely. And so I think that makes the most sense. As far as the being faithful to the text thing. I've struggled going back and forth with the denomination side of things because you'll see that when elders are also going to be appointed, I think faithful to the text on that one is that the preacher plays a pretty significant role. But you'll see congregations that will basically say, hey, put up. And I don't think most of them do voting, but it's like, hey, nominate a person, nominate a guy. And then the elders will review the nominations. So that. I'll be honest, I don't really know how I feel about that one. I get it's kind of a compromise of like the elders still get to decide, but you know, the people kind of have a voice, so to speak. But with deacons, yeah, I think it just makes the most sense for elders to appoint them. But Joe, I'm curious, kind of where you fall on that. [00:47:05] Speaker B: The difficulty with the. Everybody throws a name in is people just have to have tough skin, you know, thick skin to realize just because I threw the name in doesn't mean he gets appointed. And some people get real upset. Why didn't you consider him? It's like. Well, because the guy's pugnacious. He gets in fights everybody, you know, he can't. No, he gets along with nobody. That's tough to explain to certain people. And so I think there's. You run the risk of hurting or alienating people with that. On the other hand, in Act 6. Yeah. There's key differences in Act 6. They did that. Jack, you used the phrase that I think is key here. And will, it goes to your point. They know the flock, shepherds know the flock. I think that might be the key as to why elders should be the ones appointing deacons. Picking out and appointing these deacons is because they know. They should know who's really good at what. Well, Bob over there is great at handling finances or you know, Jim is fantastic when it comes to. He's a great guy in construction. So he knows exactly what to do. Like they know who is, who's there, they know who's available. This guy's been married three times. We're not gonna go appoint him now. Lil Miss so and so when they go to put the names forward, she may not know that he's been, you know, married three times or she may know that and not even know that the text says husband, one wife. And so she throws the name up there like, well, the elders are going to have to go through and do their due diligence anyway to find that out. So I think it makes sense. But two questions arise that I'm curious to get your guys thoughts on. Two Questions from this. The first question is, what if the elders see a need needing to be met? Let's say they're going to build a. We use construction. They're going to build another wing onto their church. They look around, they see a guy who's just a fantastic. He's a foreman. He is built for this role. He's great at it. He's also not a deacon. I think, Jack, as you spoke to earlier with a teenager, is it okay for them to. Does he get a special role? Does he. Is he just. We're using your expertise. Does he answer to a specific deacon? Do they try to shoehorn him into becoming a deacon in that situation? So that's the first question. Second question is, can you have deacons without elders? Is it possible to have one without the other? Because obviously the apostles kind of served as pseudo elders in Acts 6. But that is before elders. [00:49:10] Speaker C: But they weren't. They weren't traditional elders. Yeah, correct. [00:49:13] Speaker B: And that's before. Best we can tell elders are set up in churches. But they have a deep question about [00:49:17] Speaker A: that though, is like, are the apostles lesser than elders in that role? I would say no. They were probably more than elders in that role. So I wouldn't. It's not. I don't think it's a one for one elders then. Yeah, right. But I noticed not. Not only is it not one for one, it's not, oh, wow, our elders have more authority than they had then. Sure. I wouldn't say that. So I would say. Right. [00:49:36] Speaker B: You know, but the structure. [00:49:37] Speaker C: I guess my point is like the structure was not in place would be. [00:49:41] Speaker B: Right. And I'm only bringing it up as we have very limited resources to understand can deacons be there without elders? Obviously we see the elders and then the deacons right after. But elders are really tough to qualify. Really, really tough to find a qualified man. Well, this. Know most churches. So can you have deacons without. [00:49:56] Speaker C: Well, I mean, that gets into like, man, how. What level of. I'm trying to figure out the best way to ask this. Like, should you have a congregation that doesn't have elders? I guess is the best way to ask that. I know. I mean, we worshiped at one for three, four years and it didn't work out great. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Plus percent of the congregations, unfortunately. [00:50:17] Speaker C: Right. And so like, I think a lot of times the congregations. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of them and especially in the Bible Belt that are just small that. That can't have elders. My struggle with, okay, if they can have deacons is that's going to require decision making that is going to be made without elders present, if that makes sense. Like, the men's business meeting is kind of a known Church of Christ trope that I don't. I'm not a big fan of. And like, obviously we did. Again, we did it for three years. Like, I'm not casting aspersions on anybody. We did it our college for three years. I wasn't a fan of it then either. And so, like, I'm very. The more I, I guess have church experience. Like, I'm very hesitant to, I don't know, give authority to people. In a men's business meeting, for instance, where it's once again just, hey, if you're a man of the congregation, come to the meeting. It's like, okay, well, this guy, you know, skips Bible class and comes to worship twice a month. This guy is a faithful, you know, every single Sunday. Yeah, he might have, you know, have a rough past, whatever, but he's got a faithful family now. Those people are on the same playing field. Like, I'm not a big fan of that structure, and I know I'm only talking about the current reason of elders. And so, Joe, just to strictly answer that question of, like, can you have deacons without elders? I suppose you can. I think it's a little. Little risky, if that makes sense. Just once again, you're having to make authority decisions. Without an authority structure in place, the congregation is. So, yeah, there's nobody to answer to. So that would. That would kind of be my thought. Jack, I'm curious where you fall. I think, again, that act six thing is challenge. Challenging a bit. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, like, it's good to have somebody to trust to do the job, but as you say, if things go wrong, then it becomes everybody's problem to handle. I don't know. I like the idea of deacons, but. And as a separate role from elders. But it does definitely seem as though their work proceeds from the work of the eldership. You know, that they're in the same way that they originally did from the apostles as kind of a. So, like the church, the spiritual thing is in place and that is a priority. And when we've got that priority, then we'll figure out who can handle these other things. But then you might end up going backwards if you went the other way around. So, yeah, that's. I don't know. There's not really a clear biblical answer for that, but I understand why. I think most people would probably say you do have to have the Elders. [00:52:36] Speaker C: Yeah. As far as your other question, Joe, about, hey, this guy that's perfect for the job, can he help with it or should you just kind of push him into decon? I don't think. I don't think you should push anybody into a church leadership role. I do think, you know, reaching out to somebody, like, let's say it's, you know, just to use your example, taking the guy out for coffee if he meets the qualifications. And, hey, is this something you'd be interested in? I think that's perfectly reasonable and within bounds to do. But I also don't think, like, having that guy kind of really help lead up the project is necessarily a violation of the. Of the deacon side of things. Especially if the deacon, over building or maintenance, whatever, is working with this guy. Does that make sense? Like, I don't think you have to be a deacon to serve or fill a role in the church. [00:53:16] Speaker B: Here's what I'm saying. More of a nuanced. Yeah, I'll put a little more nuance to it. Because as I was thinking through this, it's like, okay, you have a guy who's a foreman. We'll call him Bill. Bill's a foreman. He's great. He's not a deacon. Ted's the deacon. Bill and Ted start doing this. Now Bill needs to submit to Ted as the deacon because he's the guy that's over that. But Bill's going, guys, I know how this works. I see. And I know this is kind of out on a limb here, so, sorry, work with me. But this is just. I'm thinking about this of like, Bill's going, hey, this is how this should go. We can save money here. We can do this here. We really need to not, you know, we need. [00:53:51] Speaker C: Ted's dragging his feet or something. [00:53:53] Speaker B: Yeah, and Ted's dragging his feet. Or Ted's going, Mr. Tight with a buck is like, nope, we can't spend any more. You need to go with the cheap one. Like, where. How far does it go? You know what I mean? How far does it go where Bill is not the deacon. Ted is. But Ted has no idea what he's doing when it comes to these things. How much do you see to authority? Does Ted just step back? That to me, I guess, is where it's coming from. And yes, as a construction. But I think this happens in a lot of different fields where the guy who's not necessarily a deacon or elder that's qualified may be doing the job better than the deacon or elder. That's Qualified and how the submission on that work. I don't know if there's a clear answer to this, but I'm curious. I'm just throwing it out here. [00:54:29] Speaker A: If you're not qualified, you're not qualified. I think that there is. You might be better at the job, but you're not qualified in the same sense of where people say, well, that woman's a better speaker than that guy. Okay, but that's not who God picked. So you do have to deal with that. [00:54:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that was going to be my answer. I mean, I don't think the roles can be. Even if, you know, he knows he's not qualified, he still. I think he'd still have to. To follow your example. Bill would have to submit to Ted, I think, even though that might be the least efficient economic output, so to speak, and they would not maximize their potential and the building, you know, whatever. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Like. [00:55:08] Speaker C: Like, I do think the roles, you know, would kind of hold. Hold the. The serve there. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Can Bill go above Ted to the elders? I mean, is this, you know, like the. I don't know, is that a. If you clash within the church, does that become more of a spiritual issue that you take? And, sorry, guys, I know this chasing a rabbit, but, hey, it's. [00:55:30] Speaker C: It's the close of the episode. [00:55:31] Speaker B: It's fine. [00:55:32] Speaker A: An excellent adventure with Bill and Ted here. [00:55:34] Speaker B: So. Yeah, I didn't think about that. [00:55:41] Speaker C: I'm one that. I'm one that thinks that you can take just about anything to the elders, especially if it's a conflict. If it's a conflict, anything needs to go. The elders. If it's a physical. If, once again, if it's purely a physical matter, that's once again where. I don't think the elders need to be stepping in too much. But if there's a conflict over it, I would think bringing it to the elders is fine, but going about going over Ted's head, you know, that might be a little bit of a, I don't know, violation of the roles, once again, usurping of the roles a little bit. [00:56:06] Speaker B: Jack, you mentioned this. Sorry, I'm asking all the questions here, I guess, toward the end. But we would be remiss if we did not mention Romans 16, verse 1, with. You mentioned women and how. No, women don't get served. A lot of people look at that and go, okay, Diaconos, Phoebe was a deacon. [00:56:20] Speaker C: Deaconess. [00:56:20] Speaker B: Phoebe was a deacon. Yeah, a deaconess. And so therefore, women can be deaconesses. Fellas, thoughts on that? I think it's a servant as you can see in the text clearly, As I said 29 times it's mentioned, servant is the overwhelming majority of those as it's used. I think that is what is used there as a servant. But what are your guys thoughts? [00:56:42] Speaker C: The only thing I would say I know we've covered this before is we just spent 30 minutes on the qualifications. And the qualifications, you know, pretty well dictate that this person is a man, that he is the husband of one wife. And so I think that's sufficient. Especially when you consider the Greek word translates to servant so many different ways. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. And so somebody wants to come. Come at us with a Romans 16:1. Oh, Phoebe was clearly a deacones like, well that does. How. How does that jive with, you know, First Timothy 3, you know, verse, verse 12, like Deacon be the number one wife. Those things on the surface contradict. So one of them has to be wrong or you have to figure out a way to, you know, make those two things work. And what obviously the way you make it work is Phoebe was, was a. She served the church. She was not. She did not hold the official title of deacon. So I think that's pretty obvious personally. But I know, I know this is brought up a lot. Jack, I'm sure you got a thought. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Yeah, the other thing that'll come up as well, there's a verse there in the middle of first 23 for women right there in the midst of the section about deacons, verse 11. And it's like, yeah, and that is a strange thing. You know, the women are to be these things, dignified, not malicious gossips, temperate, faithful, all things. But then he goes back immediately to your point to say deacons. He used the word again. Must be husbands of only one wife. And so I don't know why he threw just random qualifications of women in there when it's about church leaders. And there are a lot of commentators, there's theories on that, explanations for that. But I don't want to go too far down, but somebody might throw that in there and say, well that's there. Okay, but it still says husband of one wife. So that just is what it is. Like you're not getting around that. And so yeah, I had the, the search run on Diaconos in the New Testament. If Phoebe is a deacon of the church, so is Apollos, so is Paul, so is Tychicus. The. The government in Romans 13 is a deacon of God. I mean if we're just gonna translate Diakonos every time, the greatest among you shall be your. Your deacon. Jesus said the great. Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your deacon. Like that's not how Greek works. And it's kind of weird when people. It's not weird, it's annoying. When people play the lexicon game and [00:58:59] Speaker C: then trying to force a take that they want to have into the text is basically it. [00:59:06] Speaker A: Well, because again, you go back to Acts 6. Why did they say choose seven men from among yourselves, not members? [00:59:13] Speaker B: Like what are your thoughts though on women serving as like children's, you know, being over the children's classes or children's ministry or things like that? Because you do see that not a deacon, they're not going to be on the church leadership about us page on the other. [00:59:26] Speaker C: But they run the program, basically. [00:59:27] Speaker B: They run it as servants or something along those lines. Is that what Phoebe is in line for and that's what it's referring to, or do you think My, my personal take is that I still think they're answering to a man. They can help with that, but the man is still going to be over that person, that ministry personally of the deaconess. And so she can help within that and fill some of those roles and things that women naturally are good at with kids or even on the, I don't know, the logistical end of things. On the other hand, they're still answering to the deacon. But what are your guys thoughts? [00:59:59] Speaker A: I would agree with that. [01:00:01] Speaker C: I would agree with that. Yeah. I don't have much to add to it. I think that's probably the best explanation. [01:00:06] Speaker A: I think that is a lot of churches foot in the door is. And not that it's not the slippery slope where every church that has a woman who's over something is gonna. But I think it's a lot of their foot in the door is, oh well, we'll hand her this authority. We'll hand her that authority. We'll hand her that. And then they, they do the. Well, you know what, we're letting her do all this. We're giving her all this responsibility. Why can't we, you know, like. So I don't like that. But even when that's not the case, it's something that. Yeah, that's There, there is that chain of authority, chain of answering. You know, who does the buck stop with thing that we talked about. And I think that's pretty clear how that's supposed to work. [01:00:44] Speaker C: Yeah. As we kind of wrap here, I would just encourage everybody, as we always do, to let us know your thoughts on some of these Joe mainly has asked a lot of questions here at the end. Curious. No, just kidding. It's questions we've all put on the outline. But curious Yalls thoughts, especially those of you who are subscribed to Focus plus. Let us know what you think. If you have any additional questions. We will address those specifically in our extra segment, the Deep End. Every single that we do every single week. But even if you're not a member of Focus plus, let us know on Facebook, YouTube, whatever, whatever it is, we'd love to know your thoughts. I mean we said at the start of the episode fairly under discussed role in the church. We hit elders a lot. Obviously preacher gets a lot of press. Deacon not as much. And obviously again you could if you're priority ranking the importance of each of them, there's probably a reason for that. Like deacons, the role of a deacon is not quite as important, I would say as the role of a minister, certainly of that as an elder. But it's definitely worth talking about because it's in scripture and because it's a role that God deems necessary. And so those would be kind of be my closing thoughts. Again, encourage any feedback thoughts, questions that you guys would have as listeners and guys, anything else? Well, if not, once again, as we started out saying at the beginning of the episode, if you're in Texas this weekend, Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, join us, all three of us. My dad, Brad Hare will be there as well for a big conference and so at the Brown Street Church of Christ in Waxahachie, Texas. Hope to see you there. But guys, if that's if we got nothing else, then we will wrap right there. Thank you so much for listening to the Thing Deeper podcast. We will be back next week. [01:02:26] Speaker B: Foreign. [01:02:33] Speaker A: Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.