Has Church Benevolence Gone Too Far?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here with Joe Wilkie and Will Harab once again, nothing to really push this time, so let's just go ahead and get right into it. Our episode this week is on the financial side of church, on giving, on church budget spending, things like that. In fact, January, a lot of times, churches are working on their budget, kind of thinking about where they're going to put their money. Supporting mission work, supporting benevolence. What the scriptures say about that? Maybe some scriptures I think that we haven't really looked at enough or thought about as much. We might say, oh, that's cultural or whatever. But I, I think there's some stuff in here that needs more examination. So I'm going to get just pass it off to Will to go ahead and get us started on what we're going to discuss today. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah, so just to give a little bit of a preview, we're going to talk about a lot of different things and this is going to be a pretty open conversation, as we always try to do on Think Deeper, of course. But it's one of those things that people get a little bit squirrely when talking about money. Like, well, you know, you can't really say, you know, how much somebody should give or you shouldn't really say what the church should be spending money on, all these things. And you know, to some extent, you obviously don't want to overdo it. But we're going to have those conversations and we're going to ask those questions and just hopefully have some good discussion on the finances of the church and, and all those things. Again, should, what should we be spending money on as a church? Maybe even how much should we be giving, how much preachers get paid, all kind of stuff. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Where we want to start is with what everybody does, every or what every Christian does every Sunday, and that is with the giving side of things. It's commonly referred to as one of the acts of worship in Church of Christ circles. Bit of debate on that. I don't 100% agree. That's not really the point of this debate, so we won't get into that. But regardless, I think all of us agree and most Christians would agree that giving should be a part of our Christian walk. It should be a part of our spiritual walk with God. In the same way that, you know, doing good deeds and serving others and things like that should be. Giving is one of those things that people often say, well, you know, the Bible doesn't Really prescribe how much we should give. And Joe, I'm going to hand it to you next, to kind of get us into. I know you looked up Leviticus and kind of where the idea of tithing came around and, and what that looked like in the Old Testament, but I just wanted to set the stage. And again with. If you ever hear a sermon on giving, you're never really going to hear anything that is, you know, that puts numbers to it, really even. That puts percentages to it, because you don't see much in the New Testament about, okay, give this much and give that much. And I, I do think God did that for a reason, so that we wouldn't just be checking a box. But what I'm going to ask. And Joe, if you want to get into this after the Leviticus part, what, at what point is somebody giving too little? That, to me, is one of the more interesting questions about this. If I'm putting a dollar in every single week, $1. Like, okay, we'd all agree, like, okay, that's, that's not really enough. You're probably, you're paying more. You're paying more for Netflix every month than you are giving. Okay, so that's not good. Okay. And then as you keep going, okay, what about $20 a week? Probably still not much, about 50, 100. And so, yeah, I think there's a line somewhere, but that's what makes it difficult. Joe, I'm going to bring you in here to, to talk about kind of Leviticus and stuff, but I want you, if you have, if you're able to. Well, of like, how do you know how little is too little? [00:03:18] Speaker C: Sure, sure. So just to begin, I think the, the standard answer you hear is the 10%. Right. You're going to go back to. And you see tithing before the law ever comes in, before that Leviticus passage, before numbers 18, it talks about giving to the Lord, Right. You're going to see going back to Genesis 18, and then also Genesis or Genesis 14, rather in Genesis 28. And in both of those, you see Abraham or Abram, I think, at the time tithing. And then you see Jacob tithing. And the 10%, I believe, is rooted in the Genesis 14 passage. But then you also see a tenth in this Leviticus 17 passage, he says, or 27, rather. I can't, can't get the. I can't get it right here. But in Leviticus 27, 30 and following, it says, thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord. He says in verse 32, for every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord. He's not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it, or if he does exchange it, then both. It's the substitution shall become holy. It should not be redeemed. So the whole idea is we're trying to give something that's holy to the Lord. What I would bring into this discussion though, because people could look at it and go, well, that's just the law. Technically, that's before the law. This is Abraham, this is Jacob. Now we're seeing it within the law. The idea is to give something to God. But this is where you'd bring in two Samuel 24. [00:04:38] Speaker A: 24. [00:04:38] Speaker C: And this is where David is talking. And he says, I'm gonna butcher the name. But he's talking to Arana. And so Iran says, came and Lord your God accept you. Verse 24 of 2nd Samuel 24. However, the king said to Arauna, no, but I will surely buy it from you for a price, for I will not offer burnt offerings to the Lord my God, which cost me nothing. So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for 50 shekels of silver. He had an opportunity to be gifted something and he could have turned it over to God. And he says, no, I'm not going to give to God that which cost me nothing. That to me is the principle that's at play here, which is when you talk about, is there a point at which it's too low? [00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:16] Speaker C: If it doesn't really cost you anything. I think the tithing, if you. If we're going to talk about tithing, if we're going to talk about giving, and I don't know if we want to differentiate, if there is a difference for you guys in that. I know tithing is kind of setting it out to the Lord of what you're going to do, but I think it has to cost you something. If that's 10%. Some people may do the 20%. If you're making thousand bucks a week and you walk in and give a $20 bill. No, no, I don't think it cost you anything. You didn't put any time and effort into it, any thought into that. You just threw it in there. Because, yeah, you technically gave something. But that to me is very much reminiscent of David taking that and just going, well, I gave to God. I Mean, sure, it was something like, no, it didn't cost me anything. I'm going to pay the appropriate price for this and then give it over to the Lord. So that to me is what I hold up as the standard of what we as Christians ought to be doing. Like we got to give to God something that hits us a little bit and that sometimes is going to be more time than anything else. But I do think it needs to be monetary because we're incredibly blessed in America as we are. But fellas, what are your thoughts? I want. Jack, I want to bring you in on this. What are your thoughts on that? Is that the appropriate use in your opinion of 2nd Samuel 24? And is there a point to Will's question? Is there a point that it's a little too low? [00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think about the. As you were prospered, obviously, as Paul talks about. And then of course, the, the widow's might of she gave everything. And you kind of think about like somebody who's super, super, super rich, that whole well, you need to give until it hurts kind of thing. Well, what does that look like, you know, when you have $100 million or whatever and you know, if we have a listener who has $100 million, focuspress.org donate and I'll just throw that out there. But, but on the other hand, you know, for the average person. Yeah. Like the, the give till it hurts or, you know, that these days it a lot hurts. You know, it doesn't take much until you kind of reach that point because the cost of living is so high. But the as you were prospered is obviously that's kind of as a, if, if you were bringing money in. But I think there's also a percentage you could, you could kind of get that principle off of there, of looking to what do you have, what is coming in and all that. I don't. The thing I like about the 10% about the tithe is, and I know that's one of the reasons people say we don't use it, is you want to engage your heart in it. But sometimes people need a simplified thing and sometimes people need just a. What's a good starting point? That's a really good starting point. You know, if you can give more than that, if you can work up from there, that'd be a great thing to do. But on the other hand, like, I don't know, I, I think I've heard it said and I don't think this is a bad argument. Make it at least 10% like, yeah, we're not under the law. We're blessed to not be under the law. So maybe we should give a little more than they had to under the law. And, and you really can work it out to where, yeah, it was 10 of some, but really with the sacrifices and everything, it ended up way more than 10%. But at the very least, I think that should be a baseline. [00:08:11] Speaker A: I know a lot of people are not near as plugged into like Joe and Jack know, I'm a bit of a financial budget nerd, more so than the average person I know. But not everybody is plugged in as I am to like your own family's personal finances. But the one thing I would say is if you are spending more money on your entertainment, your out to eat, your kind of fun time, your. I mean, obviously there's a lot of things that could fall into that. But like I think about my. Our finances or our monthly budget can be cleanly broken down into like eating out money, subscriptions for like, again, Netflix, Apple Music, stuff like that, any fun money going out to the movies, which we don't ever do anymore. But stuff like that. If you're spending more on that every month than you are dropping it in the plate or contributing or giving somewhere else, that might just be a time to again, check your heart and see the other thing that I'm a big believer in. Most people don't stay at the same income year to year, at least every two or three couple years. Odds are you're going to get some kind of pay raise, you're going to kind of continue to move up and you know, at some point you're on a fixed income. But one thing that Rachel and I have always tried to do is if, if we, you know, if I receive a promotion, we start to make a little bit more money, our giving goes up as well. And I think some people can get into the habit of like, I'm just 100 bucks a week, that's what I'm going to give. And then, you know, they start to make a little more money, start to live a little bit nicer and that that contribution stays the same. Again, this is where people say, ah, you shouldn't really be saying how much people should give. But I, I do think that if, if you are, give as you're prospered, as Jack said, if, if we're can, if we're, if we're being prospered, more and more is coming to us as a result of God's blessing. Yeah, I mean, I don't see why we wouldn't want to give more. And, and yeah, Joe, I appreciate your give until it hurts thing as well. I've brought up before, I think for the average middle class or lower middle class family in this society, inflation, interest rates, all those things, giving, giving a good amount of money does, does hurt every single. Not hurt, it is. You know, you feel it come out, you feel it come out of the bank account. You, you know, you feel it come out of the budget. And, but, and so I would agree that if you're 10 bucks here, 20 bucks there, it's basically your Starbucks latte every single week that you're giving. Probably not enough. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Okay, Bo, just gonna jump in front of here. Joe, sorry. I want to key in on something you said there of like, I don't remember how you phrase it, but kind of the idea some people have, well, you can't really judge. It's, you know, it's kind of to each their own. And there is obviously a degree of that, but there's also, I think, a level at which you can tell somebody, hey, you could really step it up like that, that. And so I've heard people say, in fact, I think that was a listener hot take or something we had of there. It should all be either. Yeah, all anonymous. Nobody should be able to like, well, if this is part of your walk with God, I think it's okay for somebody to shepherd that. And you have shepherds if your church has that. And so I don't necessarily think it should all be cash based anonymous donation. But that question comes in, can an eldership go to, you know, the guy who the hundred million dollar member and be like, hey, we noticed you put $25 check in the plate last week. And you know, and there's always the thing of like, man, maybe he is funding an entire hospital or an entire missionary network or whatever. You just don't know. But on the other hand, like that's the question I want to throw out there. Can elders do that? Is this something a church should monitor and encourage and not just, oh, well, we think you should give. But can they tell somebody, hey, are you giving enough? Where does this stand? Like, what do you guys think? [00:11:30] Speaker A: Joe, you go with me going real fast and then I'll go for it. [00:11:32] Speaker C: Go for it. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think, I think elders have everybody right to inquire and what's the word I'm looking for? Shepherd, as you said, Jack, heart issues. And if you're 100 millionaire, dropping 25 bucks in the plate, even like if at first glance, you know, again, you. Maybe they're fun in the hospital or paying for all these missionaries or whatever. If you see a $25 check in the plate from the 100 millionaire, I think it is within the elders, right, to. To basically investigate to see if there's a heart issue there. If this guy or woman, I guess, is just so greedy that they won't. Won't give more than $25, that is a heart issue. And so obviously this applies to other things. But I do think elders have the right and the biblical authority to shepherd heart issues within marriages, within parenting, within whatever. A lot of people are going to disagree, disagree with me on this. They're going to say, finances are people's own business, leave them alone, private life, all these things. Again, one of our most faithful listeners, one of our deep thinkers. This was her take that it should be anonymous and that elders shouldn't really get to know. I do think elders have. If somebody seems to have a clear heart issue with money, I think elders have a right to kind of step in and have that conversation, if that makes sense. Joe, what do you think? [00:12:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I think people hear Mormonism personally when you see something like that, because obviously the Mormon Church, they know the elders and everybody all the way up, bishops and such, they know your finances. And so if you're not tithing enough, if you're not giving enough, then they step in and go, hey, what's going on? And so people look at and go, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's an invasion of privacy. I think it's less about that of show me your tax statement and show me how much you're. It's more of, okay, we're seeing a trend and we know that it's been a little low. We just want to know what's going on. And like you said, Jack, maybe they are. They've taken on a complete different mission field. And. And, man, we're sending $500 a month to a specific missionary that happened to come our way. I still think that's something that's good for the church to know. First off, it's good for us to know, hey, can we help? Can we support. Is that something that the church can look into? Something along those lines? But I also think it's easy to hide behind people like that, that, like, oh, yeah, there's. Everybody's kind of given to different places type of thing, when in reality there are probably those that are making a hundred grand a year, putting 20 bucks in the plate. I do think that it's okay for elders to just go question. And it's not an accusatory, you need to give more. It's hey, what's going on? Just notice this has been a little bit low. I have no problem with that because to me that is a hard issue. That may say first Timothy six, what does he talk about? Like the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil. Maybe there's a level where the love of money is really coming into play and they're not putting God first in their finances. And so that opens up a bigger conversation. So I think that's very relevant. The point I was going to make before that, really good question, Jack, is what are your thoughts on somebody maybe giving less to God but using that money for hospitality purposes? We're going to have somebody over once a month and yes, groceries are really expensive and we don't know that we can necessarily afford it. So they don't give the 10% on Sunday morning or whatever they've decided and they decide to put some into the budget for groceries to have people over. What are your thoughts on it? I'm personally I'm all for it. I think that still is giving. It's in the heart of what God wants is the same as the guy on the side of the road that maybe needs some help and you can go help and whatever it is, I think that can be part of the giving to God. But I know some people look at it as that's not the case. What are your thoughts? [00:14:45] Speaker B: I've heard that idea somewhere before. [00:14:47] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:49] Speaker B: That's really good. I wrote on it. [00:14:52] Speaker C: I know where Jack stands. [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I wrote on that in Church Reset, which actually I'm currently doing the read through on the YouTube channel or the Church Reset podcast. So yeah, how about that? That's really good. So yeah, but if you want to hear that book, audiobook edition, check that out. But I will say I've had people say, well, kind of the idea of somebody would just use that to get out of giving. The kind of person who's trying to be more hospitable and think about it that way, probably not going to do that. The other thing is I don't know of anybody who actually has done that because everybody else goes, well, we'll just add this to our gift because of the good heartedness of Christians will even give even more if it costs $50 a week to have people over. Okay, that's, you know, we're gonna add that $50 to our, our family budget or whatever. But There does come a point in which you just can't. I mean like again, cost of groceries, we don't have to establish all that. And so that being the case, no, I, I think that's a, a very good thing to do that will pay off for the. Because it's, you can't just think single mindedly. I like, okay, I put it in the basket and my hands are, are clean of all of my duty on this thing. Like, yeah, that's one way of doing it. But there's multiple ways of pursuing this and giving to the church and that would be one of them. At least this is my theory on it. [00:16:05] Speaker C: Will. [00:16:06] Speaker A: No, I totally agree. I don't have any disagreement. Joe, the way you phrase the question was instead of giving to God, keeping it back for groceries, for hospitality stuff, that is giving to God in my opinion. You know, sure. It's not dropping it in the plate. It's not, you know, for those who would believe this, the five acts of worship on Sunday morning from the hours, from the 10 to 11 hour. But it's still giving to God. It's, it's obeying his, his instruction of being hospitable and having people over and getting to know your church family and maybe it's an evangelism opportunity to have, you know, some people over from your congregation as well as maybe some non Christians, some neighbors, have a cookout, whatever it is. Yeah, I agree with. I don't want to spend too much time here because I completely agree. I think that would be a perfectly reasonable thing if you're opening up your home, willing to spend that much money on feeding everybody and then hosting an event. I think that's reasonable. [00:16:52] Speaker B: All right. I think want to grab one thing if we going to move on. Yeah, let's get. Okay, let me, let me do one more thing on this. We talked about the budgeting, you know, tithing elders, how involved they can be. One thing that some churches do is have people pledge like this year, Lord willing, if I keep my job and everything goes well and I make what I'm making now, this is what we plan to give every week so the elders can budget around what they're bringing in. I know some people have a real big problem with that. Some people, you know, looking kind of as a James 4 kind of thing of like you're planning ahead and the Lord will give the increase, the Lord will add to what you need or whatever. Others think, well, that's just the way it has to be. How can you make plans if you don't know how much you're going to bring in. What? Yeah, I'll put that one to you guys too, and then I'll answer it before we move on. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Hey guys, Will Hirab here. Just wanted to take a minute and let you know that if you enjoy listening to the Think Deeper podcast, we wanted to make you aware of another podcast we have on the Focus Press podcast platform. It's called the Godly Young Men podcast, where myself and Joe we tackle a lot of cultural issues that are facing young men. The target age range is around 15 to 25 years old, but we have young men of all ages listen to it. Our goal is just to restore them to godly masculinity and talk about the challenges and things that are facing young men in today's time. So if you're interested, check that out on YouTube or on any of your favorite podcast platforms. [00:18:19] Speaker C: My initial reaction. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Okay, you go. Yeah, go ahead, Joe. [00:18:22] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just kind of a James 4 thing of like, and you don't know what's going to happen. So somebody can pledge. I feel like that adds an extra level of almost guilt on if they lose their job, of I'm not going to make the pledge and the church was planning on this coming in and, and everything else. And some of those things are just outside your control. I guess it's not wrong inherently. On the other hand, I think you are banking on something you really don't have control over. In my opinion, a lot of people don't have control over. You just don't know what the year is going to hold. So practically speaking, I don't know how much sense it makes to have somebody pledge when they could lose their job tomorrow and not know the economy. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Well, I think Jack prefaced it with like assuming that they keep their job in the income. [00:19:01] Speaker C: But that's my point. That's my point is you are, you are pledging saying, this year I'm going to give $10,000. Well, that's great. I, I can say I'm going to give a hundred thousand dollars assuming the job is going to be there. Like this is what I'm going to have. The problem is there is a lot of assumption in that you're assuming your job doesn't get, you know, that you're not fired, the job and job doesn't get cut, that you don't have other things pop up, budgetary issues that you can't give. I feel like there's so many things outside the control that I don't. Again, I Don't think churches are wrong to ask for a pledge, practically speaking. I just wonder how much it makes sense and how much it works. But Will, what are your thoughts? [00:19:35] Speaker A: I kind of like the idea. I'm going to be honest. I'm pretty unfamiliar with, with this. And so maybe, maybe there's a strong scriptural argument as to why it's not a good idea that maybe Jack will give here in a second. I'm not sure, but just the way he described it to me, it's not much different than the elder stepping in if you're not giving enough. Like, if they think you're not giving enough, it's, you know, the church having some sort of not say, but level of knowledge of how much you're going to be giving, how much you are giving, how much money you make, all those things. So I don't see a huge difference in it. The only. Obviously, again, assuming, because I think about our congregation. We've got a, you know, fairly small congregation. How many, how many of us have had, you know, basically gotten let go from their job where that would have been a problem. This happened once in four or five years. Like, it's. I don't think it's quite as common. I know you're. I know unstable times and, and economy and all these things, but yeah, I don't have a huge problem with that. I think it's a very interesting concept. I. It again, probably get a lot of pushback. But Jack, what, what, what are your thoughts on that? [00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm kind of torn on it. I. I feel like it's very business, like. But, you know, but for a good reason, like, if you want to kind of know what you have to work with, because you kind of know anyway, like, you know, generally what you're bringing in. And I, I've seen this used to like, push people. Hey, pledge, a little more than last year, if you can see if you can find a little more room or something else to, to give, whatever it may be. On the other hand, yeah, it can be a little presumptuous. It can be a little. Maybe overthinking things. So I don't know. I should have thought about that a little more before I decided to throw it into the outline here at the last second. But maybe it's pretty rare that you. [00:21:09] Speaker A: Don'T have a strong take though, so that's interesting. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Vibes wise, I hate it. Logic wise, it makes some sense. And so that's. The head versus the heart are kind of going, going to battle here. So I'D love to know in the comments what others think about that. I, I, I think you're going to get a lot of that of, like, it just makes sense or, man, I, I don't like the thought of that. It sounds bad. So just wanted to throw that in before we move on to the, from the giving part and let's get into what the church does with the money. I guess we'll look at a few different facets of that. One is that's kind of big on a lot of church budgets is community benevolence. Whether it's having a big. There might be a ministry itself, like a soup kitchen or a, you know, something like that where you're helping people. It might just be random giving. Whereas as needs arises, it might be, you put on an event, you know, once or twice a year that does certain things. There, there's a lot of that going on. I'll say briefly, as a preacher in the office, you know, for about 10 years, we got a lot of calls of, hey, I need some gas. Hey, I need some food. Hey, I need some grocery money or whatever. And there's a lot of good ideas out there on how churches should handle that, how to tie some strings to it. It is very weird that somebody would call up total strangers and ask for money like that. And a lot of times it was kind of like if we said no because sometimes we had to, we didn't have the money they were asking for, people would get mad. Well, you're a church. Don't you Say you love Jesus, don't you? [00:22:35] Speaker A: Like, like you guys are supposed to do this. [00:22:38] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:22:40] Speaker B: But there are Christians who think we have to give to that person. God didn't tell us to, you know, care about that or, or any. So I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't know. I'll start with this. The more I go on, the more I really think this should be. Like, the last item on a church's budget is helping out the community. [00:23:00] Speaker C: You and I have talked a lot about this. I wholeheartedly agree, because, man, you sound like a heartless jerk when you say it. But to me, I don't know, they look at it as an evangelism opportunity. I suppose I have the same problem that I have with vbs. What you win them with is what you win them to. What I would love for them to do is to come into the church, make their way into the church, and then, you know what, down the line, if they need something. Absolutely. You have proven that you are a good brother in Christ, whatever it may be. I don't see the giving you see in Acts leading up to Ananias and Sapphire in Acts chapter five, right? The giving that you're seeing where they're having all things in common and selling land and selling their houses and things like that. That is all within the community of the church. We're not seeing them go out and minister to others. People are going to bring in Matthew 25, the discussion of, you know, Lord, when did we see you do this as this. Well, you did it the least of these and you did it to me type of thing, right? Of all of these things, you saw me hungry and saw me thirsty and they want to bring that in. I'm not convinced that's specifically speaking about the world. Now I'm not saying we don't have a heart that is looking to potentially give. On the other hand, to take church finances, I see more churches. Maybe I'm off on this. People can comment and get mad if they want, but I think I see more churches that are willing to give to the poor and to give to, to those that not of the household of faith than they are of their own members. Because we'll all gather around and talk about, you know, little 90 year old little miss so and so who needs 250 bucks for electric bill. She's a little short. We got to stand around as men, can we cover this? And then there will be some benevolent opportunity for us to go out and spend thousands of dollars to help people in the world. And yeah, everybody, hot diggity dog, let's do it. Like, hold on a second, I do have a problem with that. I think we do need to be looking at those that are within the household of faith first to say, yeah, this is the best use of money here. And man, I think money flies out the door of churches to go help other people when in my opinion there are a lot better uses. And the other thing is, yeah, there are a lot of people that maybe that's, hey, the church did an amazing thing for them and I think that can help. On the other hand, a lot of times I think they are just looking for the handout and they have no. Like, I just don't see anybody come to Christ by giving, by, by having been given money in the New Testament. So I don't know, maybe I'm too harsh on this. But Will, what are your thoughts? [00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah, there's, there's a lot to unpack here. So a few thoughts that I have. The first one being. I do think Galatians 6 gives us a pretty clear. What is it, verse 9 or 10? I think it's 10. 10, yeah, about it's 10. Yeah. Let us do good to all, especially those who are of the household of faith, gives the idea that there should be some level of priority, should some level of priority given to those who are of the household of faith. If you got a poor person who needs 250 bucks for their electric bill, one of them is within your congregation, one of them is not give to the person in your congregation first. That to me is obviously you can say, okay, that's a stretch. I don't think so. I think that's what Galatians 6 is kind of talking about, especially to those who have the household of faith. As far as Matthew 25 goes, because I think that's a very interesting question to bring up about, you know, is that to the world, is that benevolence? Etc. My take on Matthew 25 is that I do think give, taking care of the hungry, the thirsty, those in prison sick, all those things. I do think that, that the world could qualify for that. Like that could fall into it. I don't think my reading of it is not that Jesus is just saying only people who are, who are Christ followers, only people who are Christians. But what's different about my reading in Matthew 25 is that seems to be a whole lot more of an individual command than a church command. That seems to me to be a whole lot more. Because I think what people can get into is like, well, you know, I didn't actually feed the hungry, or I didn't actually go visit anybody, or I didn't actually. But I, I dropped my $100 check in the plate. And then our preacher went and did that, or somebody else did that. I funded it, I gave money for it. So basically I did it. And maybe one could argue there's an element of that where you are supporting feeding the hungry, you are supporting all these things. But to me, there's a whole lot more of an individual lean towards Matthew 25 that I get specifically, as opposed to Jesus basically saying, hey, make sure your congregation supports all these ministries. Make sure that your congregation is doing all these things so that I can tell you, well done, good and faithful servant. That would be my kind of disagreement with the way that Matthew 25 could be commonly or could be interpreted as being about benevolence. Is that again, sure. If I'm. If I'm dropping 250 bucks in the plate and some of that's going to support different ministries and feeding people. I think that's fine. But I don't think I should use that as a mental checklist of like, okay, cool, I've done everything I need to because I dropped. Does that make sense? You understand what I'm saying? As far as the differentiation there, that'd be kind of my thoughts there. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So the Galatians 61 was 6, 10 was 1. I was going to bring up about kind of the order of due to good to all, especially the household of faith. You also have the kind of love one another, love your neighbor as yourself and all those things. But Jesus said love as I have loved you within the church. Like there's a hierarchy of loves. You are supposed to love the church above everyone else. So that's kind of your first priority of taking care of them. As for the Matthew 25 thing, he says whoever has done to in verse 40 of Mat Matthew 25 to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, which I think is interesting, that's who you're supposed to do it to. And I think my read of it is he's talking about it as the gospel 25:40 as the gospel goes out into the world and it reaches people, how do you respond to the church? How do you those that welcome them there, there's a Jesus is going to welcome you, those that don't. And in Matthew 10:42 he had said, whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones same terminology he uses in Matthew 25 to one of these little ones, even a cup of cold water to drink. Truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. So again, taking care of the the disciples as they go out preaching the gospel. Hebrews 6:10 also says, For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward his name. And having ministered and instill ministering to the saints. Similar terminology of you're showing love to Jesus by showing love to his people, the saints. And so I really don't think this is a go out and alleviate all the world's problems verse, which is what it is often turned into. Two other points I want to make. One, I think we have to be very careful not as Jesus said in Matthew 6, don't let the one hand know what the other one's doing. A lot of times these are very publicly facing things. Look what we do here, which is hard because if you're Going to help people. You kind of need to let people know that you're there to help them. But it very quickly becomes, look at this charitable thing I'm involved in. I'm helping the homeless, I'm helping the, you know, the people that are victims of this, that or the other thing or whatever it may be. And they talk about it a lot and man, everyone thinks they're the nicest people in the world. Like, yeah, that's Jesus said, you have your reward in full. Final one. This so many times and this is not a universal thing. Broad brush a lot of times goes hand in hand with progressive doctrine. And I, you can say, well, why I think you can go back to our critical theory episode of how to Know when a Church has been Captured was the title of it, of the. It's just kind of elevating. Well, we've got to forget about the people in our pews. We got to go out there and help these people in the world to let them know how, you know, that we're prioritizing them, we're lifting them up kind of thing. And I think a lot of times it becomes ahead of evangelism and doctrine is doing nice things, looking nice, being the good guys. And so yeah, I, I, as I said, the more time goes by, the more I view these public facing things as, let's be, let's be careful with that. I'm not saying don't give to people. I'm not saying don't, you know, buy a sandwich for somebody who's in need or, you know, I mean, how many names, hospitals and stuff have been started in the name of Christianity? Sure. But I don't know. I, I'm very uncomfortable with some of these things. [00:30:49] Speaker A: I want to park on the point because I think it's a great one about kind of the, the advertising of it. The look at, look at me, look at my organization, look at my church. And then. Joe, I'll hand it to you in a second if you have any thoughts on that or anything else. Jack said, because there's a lot of good stuff there. But I do have a bit of a problem with that as well. And it's similar and this is going to sound harsh, but the people who are always posting the selfies of, you know, them and how many people they baptize and, and look how many converts. Look at me in this Bible study, look at me. You know, like, I understand that there are certain organizations that that's how they get their donations is through baptism results. And there are certain you know, ministers out there who, that's kind of what they're known for is being quote unquote, outreach or you know, an evangelist. And so that's also how they get support and that's how they're known is by doing those things, man. Something about it feels very off. Something about it feels very. Again, look at me, look how much good work I'm doing for the Lord. And that's, that's the Matthew 6 thing in the sense of doing your charitable deeds. Don't do it to be seen before men. Don't be posting it all over Facebook. Don't be, don't be making that kind of the, the, the center of your, of your efforts. And so similarly with this community benevolent thing that you're talking about, I think a lot of congregations do it to kind of show how benevolent they are how. And as, as an evangelism tactic, as a tool like, I'm not trying to, to cast negative aspersions on their motives or anything like that, but it does feel a little bit icky to me of, you know, look again, look how generous we are. We're, we're such nice people here. We're gonna, we're gonna take care of you. We're gonna do all these things. And I, I just think that the. Yeah. In addition to everything you said, Jack, I do think that the motivation is off a little bit in many instances. But Joe, what thoughts do you have to add? [00:32:31] Speaker C: I could see to the other side though. To be fair to churches that do clothing drives and things like that, I think there are a lot of well meaning churches that aren't ne thought of as ultra benevolent as much as they're viewing it truly as an opportunity to bring people to Christ. That somebody, it kind of taken along the lines of they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. You can bring them in and yeah, kind of evangelize them, but they need to know that you're there for them type of thing. If I were steel manning it, that's probably where I'd go with it to the other side. I still think there are holes in that, that thinking specifically in the fact that, okay, maybe that's, I think we can show how much we care in other ways than just giving them things. On the other hand, I do think that there are, I'm sure there are converts and we may have some in, you know, that are listening to us that may be able to comment and say, okay, this is how I came to Christ. [00:33:23] Speaker A: There are converts they do. [00:33:24] Speaker C: I'm sure there are. So, yeah, I'm not saying that there's no good that comes out of it. I'm not saying every church has the motive of, look at us. Look at us and all that we're doing. I do think it's something to be very careful of. Like I said, the biggest issue I have is when you go to, yes, we can put in thousands of dollars for all of these benevolent things for those out in the world, but when it comes to paying our preachers well, when it comes to helping members, specific members out, things like that, that's where it kind of goes haywire. And, fellas, I'm going to use that to springboard into the next part of the discussion, because as we talk about where our money gets used, I do think it's important. We just talked about the household of faith, right? You brought in Galatians 6. One that gets brought up a lot. You see this in First Timothy 5 is supporting the widows. This is not something we do. And yet it is a very biblical thing. I think it's more biblical than supporting those outside the household of faith, supporting the world. I think you can draw a much clearer biblical line to say, yes, we're supposed to be supporting the widows rather than having clothing drives. And yet one is more, like, overwhelmingly more done in supporting those in the world and the homeless and things like that than the widows. First off, why do you think that is? And second off, is this something we ought to be reinstituting in the church supporting these widows? Is this a cultural thing going back 2000 years, or is this something that we should be bringing forward to today with our church benevolence? [00:34:44] Speaker B: I think this is a really. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Just to be clear, your first question. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Go ahead with the question. [00:34:49] Speaker A: I was gonna say, Joe, is your first question, why is it that we put more emphasis on the clothing drives and the community stuff as opposed to taking care of our own type of thing? Is that your first question? [00:34:58] Speaker C: This is clearly laid out in scripture, I think, but we seem to gloss over this one quite a bit. I'm curious as to why instead of the other ones, maybe your answer, your previous answer goes back to it, if look at us type of thing. I don't know. [00:35:11] Speaker A: Well, I've got a thought. Jack, sorry to cut in front of you real fast, but I was just. For the first one. For the first one, I'll say. And, man, I'm gonna come across sounding like the harsh person on the episode, but I feel like it has to do with the way we view success in our congregations. And how do a lot of congregations. Not success, but like, how do a strong, healthy church. And how do most congregations view a strong, healthy church? Baptisms, adding more people. You know, the, the sheep stealing term of like family from XYZ Church of Christ, 20 minutes down the road comes and worships here. Bringing more people in is how most people, is how most elderships and most congregations view success in a strong, healthy congregation. And I will say I do think that a congregation that is growing, that is adding people, is converting people, is evangelizing. Absolutely. That is a sign of a healthy congregation. But you know what else is the sign of a healthy congregation? I would say using money to take care of somebody within our congregation who is truly in need, taking care of our own. I think the reason why you don't see that as much is because it doesn't pad the numbers. It doesn't boost the. That you don't get a baptism count for. You don't get to add, you know, post it on social media. Like, I know I'm bringing up kind of the other side of it there, but that would be my answer because I put on here as well, like, what about families in need? What about the husband who's lost his job and is going to be out of work for the next three or four months? Can the church step in and help out? I would think so. Obviously there need to be kind of boundaries and limits to that, but I would think so. What about a family who, you know, tragic as it may be, they're one of their kids has, you know, some medical situation or something like that, and so there's really high medical bills that they're going to be set back financially significantly because of these high medical bills. Is that a, is that a, an instance where a church can step in? I think so. But once again, that doesn't necessarily boost the numbers. And so might be a very cynical way of looking at it, But I know for a fact that is how most congregations view their success as a congregation. The health of their congregation. How many people are we adding? How many people are getting in? And the clothing drives. Community events are far more suited to bring people in than that. That would be my answer. Jack, how about you? [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I would assume it's a little more subtle than that of just kind of. We think this is what we're supposed to do. We think we're supposed to be just real nice participants in the community. And we haven't like stopped and reviewed and said, all right, where does the Bible say this money should go first? And so the idea of a church, like actually having Paul, the terminology he uses here in First Timothy 5 is like putting the women on the widows on the roll. Like, you have a payroll for your widows. I mean, we, I'm sure we're all familiar with instances in which a church chips in, as Joe brought up earlier, on a woman's budget. But like the idea of monthly we're going to give to these widows, I've never heard of that. Now, of course, if you've got a woman who her husband left her really well off, she can just say, no, thank you, I appreciate it. But you know, divert that somewhere else. You've got a lot of older women, just folks who are struggling, folks who really need something. And so the question is, like, at what standard of living do they have to be at before we go, okay, you know, we don't really need to give to you. Or I mean, if you've got a widow in your church who is, you know, off of government assistance or is off of, I mean, just rice and beans and as you say, keeping her house at 65 degrees because she can't keep the heat on or whatever else, and you're putting a dime into the community, I think that's wrong. I think that, like, take care of your own people for. And in that same context, this is not one for one, he's not talking about the exact same thing, but that's where you get the. If a man doesn't take his own, he's worse than an infidel and he's denied the faith. These are our own. Especially if an eldership, like, it's. It's your people, you've been given to take care of. And I think, as will saying, like, you get a lot more bang for your buck, you know, visually by putting it outside of the, the four walls of the church. But I think this should be the, the starting point of the church is like, is everyone here good? Before we go spend money elsewhere, is everyone in our house taken care of? Let's do that Elder pay. We'll talk about here in a minute. Like that might be something as well. Of like, they might. And again, an elder can be in a place where he's like, no, I'm good. I don't need that. Then you can put it elsewhere. Start in your own house. Make sure your own house is taken care of. I think again, but there might be churches. If you're a listener and you've heard of a church that has like a widow payroll. I'd love to hear about that. I've never heard of it. And it just blatantly talks about taking care of your own in this way. And again, I think so many times we look outward first rather than making sure everyone at our own table is eaten. Hey guys, just wanted to tell you about Dr. Brad and Melinda Harab's new book, Arrows in the Hands of a Discipling Children Toward Heaven With God's Grace. It's a great book for couples to read together or for churches to study in a Bible class setting with a 13 week plan. We also give bulk discounts if you buy it through focuspress.org or it's also available on Amazon. So check out Arrows in the Hands of a Warrior today. [00:40:04] Speaker C: So as we're talking about taking care of our own in this context, right this, this first 75 context, supporting widows, we're taking a strong stance saying, yeah, we can help the homeless maybe where possible, but for the most part I think it needs to stay home. So we've talked about this some before, but I want to kick off a further discussion on mission work and how much we should be spending on mission work. Every church that I know and every church I've ever worshiped at has a mission work. Part of the, the budget, right? Whether that be to China or Malaysia or somewhere in Africa or Ukraine or wherever it may be. That is a big part of most churches budgets in going out and giving to missionaries. Sometimes it's to the Navajo reservation, sometimes it's to people up in the northwest, northeast, where it's really, really difficult. And we would consider those people missionaries. So I've heard of these things taking place in this context. Gentlemen, as we are discussing this, I am curious your thoughts. I think this makes for a very interesting discussion. I don't think we're. I'm not saying it's wrong. I got to be very careful how I phrase this question. I'm not saying it's wrong. On the other hand, when we're talking about keeping things local, helping those in the local church, what are your thoughts on this? Do you think this is. Is there a point at which we've given too much? Maybe I'll start there. Is there a point at which we've given too much to foreign missionaries to the detriment of our own churches? [00:41:23] Speaker A: I've gone first a couple times in a row, Jack, so why don't you take this one? [00:41:26] Speaker B: Oh, come on. This is a hard thing. Because it's like, do we need foreign missions? Yes. Do we need to. Then we need to support foreign missions? Yes. I, I think when you look at like a hierarchy of these things, I would. Once again, there's not going to come as a surprise after everything I've said. This should easily come above community benevolence. And so form, like sending the gospel out, whether foreign or domestic missions. I mean, there's, there's places in America, it's absolutely mission work to go, whether it's parts of California or South Dakota. And I mean, there's just places where you're kind of alone on an island and the church can't support a preacher. Yeah, that's mission work too. And so these things should certainly be in our view of what we're supporting and giving to. And so. Yeah, no, I don't. When it comes to. All right. If you've got a hundred bucks to give, you know, if your church has 100 bucks surplus after all the bills are paid and the, the lights are on and all that, and you've got a widow in your church who needs it. Yeah, give it to her. You got, you know, 200 bucks and the 100 takes care of her. Okay. Go evangelize with that other 100. You know, send somebody to evangelize or whatever it may be. And so I, I think it's something that, yeah, again, make sure you're taking care of home at first and the minute you're taken care of at home, the next dollar should go toward sending the gospel out. And so I think about Paul, obviously with Corinthians and Philippians, he's kind of talking to them about the, the Philippian church, the Macedonian churches are giving money and the Corinthian churches. Here's you guys need to give two. And we're taking it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. So it's inter church or intra church benevolence, you know, church to church, Inter church. But I'm getting my, my vocabulary messed up here. One of the two benevolence within the church. And so there's that, but there's also, there's those supporting Paul, you know, that are sending him as a missionary. And so it's an important thing to do alongside our taking care of each other. And again, so like in last places, give it away to the community who may or may not care. [00:43:34] Speaker A: A point that I know you guys have made before, that I agree with is the idea of, yeah, you can love everybody, but love the person, love your family first and foremost more than the person that is, you know, in your Community, then love the person in community more than the person who is thousands of miles away in a different country? I, I think that does apply in the sense of, yeah, I would love to evangelize the, the community around, you know, Dixon, Tennessee or Burns, Tennessee. I would also love the community or to evangelize India. Should there be certain priority given? I think there should. Joe, what are your, what are your thoughts? [00:44:05] Speaker C: I, I agree with that. I agree with that. Having that level of priority with the more immediate. My question of all this is, is there a point at which we should expect the missionary to be able to make it on there? Is that too much to expect? So for instance, we set a guy up, we send thousands of dollars to get him started in Zimbabwe. Let's just choose right. Is there a point at which we can expect him to assimilate into the culture and take on which Paul did the tent making operation? I'm not saying there is. I'm genuinely curious on this. I know I'm asking questions as opposed to bankroll in the entire time, should we expect. Have any expectations of them being able to make it on their own, assimilating to the culture? Because one thing that I've seen four missions, I've visited foreign missions before, I think the American money that's coming from, from there, they can bankroll churches. I think that's a, that can really help establish some of the churches, especially over in Africa, some of the churches in India, whatever it may be. On the other hand, I don't know that it should continue to be that indefinitely. You know, I think it would be best if you, if the missionary is so assimilated into the culture when he goes over there that he's not having to be, you know, because some of these guys, you go over there and they're just living in like these lavish compounds because they have a ton of American dollars that are supporting them and you know, everything else. And you get into some massive problems where they have separated themselves from the culture. Those that do it best seem to go over there and try to make their way in a more assimilating fashion. I'm not the missionary here. I'm not looking to comment on missionary mission work or denigrate anybody, because I know there's so many great men and women around the nation or around the globe that are, they're spreading Christ and so in no way am I looking to have money taken away from them. I'm just curious if this is something that we should be looking for in terms of assimilation and. Or if Churches should continue to bankroll indefinitely. What are your guys's thoughts on. I'm just thinking out loud here. So what are your thoughts on this? [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah, the idea of like the church can't survive in a place unless, you know, American churches are, are bankrolling it forever, that's not healthy. I like that some of the preaching schools have gone to the model of training people locally over there, setting up the locals to do their own leadership development and things like that, because it has to be that way. And I think that's how Paul was doing it, like that. Go set up a place, get them going, you know, keeping, keep in touch and help them as you can. But the idea of having to fund them indefinitely. The other thing you kind of alluded to this, there's churches get scammed, there's mission works that will people think they're given to the Lord. That is like the, the lowest corner of hell, whatever terminology you want to use. If somebody who would say, hey, send me money to do the Lord's work, hey, here's pictures of baptisms that you know is actually the same one I sent you 15 years ago. Like that stuff happens. And so when you find a good, reliable mission work, absolutely, you know, bankroll, let's get behind those people, taking them in places where it needs to be with, you know, the intentions of spreading the gospel and strengthening the church there and whatever the case may be. And so it's a really hard balance to figure out. But I do agree with the point of helping the church there get their own two feet on the ground. And we're not always their, their parent church over here. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I agree. I don't have a lot to add. I like that, that idea of self sufficiency, basically making sure that they are, you want to make sure they're sustained and you want to make sure that they have strong leadership would be the other thing. If they don't have strong leadership, I could see the argument for let's make sure that we kind of keep a representative. Sounds bad, but like you want to make sure that they have fairly strong leadership, but not just leave them to the wolves if they don't have any strong male leadership. And so that would be the only kind of concession that I would make is make sure that they are set up well as far as leadership goes. And then after that, yeah, I do think the, the idea of a congregation, a foreign congregation being self sufficient is the, is the idea. Is the idea or ideal is what I'm looking for. Ideal thing there. [00:48:10] Speaker C: So I think we're going to get two episodes out of this and the next one. I do want to get into elders being paid. I want to get into paying preachers because that is very relevant to this conversation where I think there's some people that can give so much to foreign mission work that their preachers are poppers. You know, they can, they can barely make ends meet. The wives have to work steady jobs in order to supplement while they're giving tons and tons. I think that's wrong. I really do think once again we've established take care of your own the same way with the community. What, what it would be great would be for the community to know how much we take care of our own people. It's less about, well, we'll just give to anybody. It's more of, man, if you're part of that church, if you're a member there, man, they take care of each other to just an amazing extent and they take care of the preacher and they're always there for one another and they're sharing meals and things like that. I think that's more of the acts design and that's what we're advocating for. So I don't want anybody to look at it and say we're stingy with the money or whatever else. It's more of building a culture where we take care of each other. We do look to for benevolent areas, but people know that church is different. The Romans could look around and see the love that the early Christians had for one another. The Jews could look around and see the love the early Christians had. But it was the selling their homes and giving the proceeds was for the church. Once again, that speaks volumes to the world. You didn't have to go give that away to the rest of the world. So, yeah, we're talking about this culture. I think we're going to get more into this in the next one of how the church handles the culture of money. We'll, we'll talk about the elders, talk about the preachers, we'll talk about parachurch organizations. That includes Focus Press and things like that. Because there's a lot of debate surrounding that and some other things as well. So, fellas, any other things you'd add to this? Before we get to the. Think fast. [00:49:54] Speaker B: I want to say just, I mean, the missionaries, they're so important. And so I, I don't want it to come across like we don't appreciate you. And it's important for churches to support missionaries because as Paul talks about in Philippians, that it's their participation in the gospel. They weren't going where he was going, but they were behind him, they were praying for him, they were supporting him. And so they were participants like they were part of the team, even though it wasn't directly them. And so churches need to participate in the gospel in that way. Absolutely. And so I don't want it to come across on like, I know, you know, keep your money at home, but like other considerations for sure. Make sure, you know, you're taking care of your people, but also. Yeah. Make sure we're spreading the gospel. So I just wanted to cap it with that. [00:50:35] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. I don't want it to come across as though I don't appreciate all the missionaries out there. [00:50:39] Speaker B: So. Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Incredible sacrifice. Incredible work, you know, work that I can't do. And so, you know, we're sending people to do things that we don't and can't and all that. So. But yeah, let's wrap with our think fast before. Yeah. Before we burn up too much of next week's material. [00:50:54] Speaker C: Yeah. So on the think fast, gentlemen, today is there's two different big things. When this is dropping is the inauguration. But the other thing that is crazy to say is almost a bigger deal is TikTok being banned. And so I wanted to revisit that because we were majorly against. How long ago was that? Like two years, three years ago we went. [00:51:15] Speaker A: That was 2022, I'm pretty sure. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it was early, early days. [00:51:19] Speaker C: Three years ago we said, don't get on TikTok. This is horrible. We've been vindicated. They took it off and said it was horrible, but now it sounds like it's coming back. So I don't know where it stands in all the limbo and whatnot. I wanted to get your guys's reaction in real time as we're watching this unfold. Is it a positive thing to have? That sounds dumb. I know we are the anti TikTok people, but do you think that's a positive thing or do you think it's a negative thing to have that just completely taken off the app Store? And is how should we respond if it does come back? I mean, do we. Should this give any pause to Christians who are listening, who are maybe usual TikTok? [00:51:56] Speaker A: It should obviously. It should obviously be giving Christian's pause. I mean, we came out with that video in 2022 and it is noteworthy. I might point out that since then, Joe, a couple times been like, so, guys, I know we said that, but do Y'all think we should put our content on there? Hey, man. [00:52:10] Speaker C: Clicks. [00:52:11] Speaker A: I don't think that's a good idea. Yeah, but interestingly enough, you know, from certain Church of Christ influence influencer, so to speak, we were flamed for that article or for that video that we put out there saying, hey, get off TikTok. But as far as my reaction kind of take on it, you know, it, first of all, it was, why, why is the Supreme Court looking to ban it? I mean, it's pretty clear that it was Chinese spyware. And you say, oh, well, everybody's spying on us. Okay, well, Facebook hasn't been banned and other things haven't been made like tick. There was something different about Tick Tock. And that was the point that we made in the video is like, just from a national security standpoint, it's a little bit different than, you know, Instagram or something like that. And so obviously I would be in support of banning it for that. And as we discussed before, I mean, this is not new information. It's really bad for you. It is really bad for your brain. And so is the other. So are the other social media forms. But there was studies that were, that were showing the, you know, two second and swipe, three seconds, then swipe what that was doing to kids and their attention span and all that. It's just, and that's not even to get into, not to take all the material here, but the pornography, the, you know, really immodest, you know, clothing on there and all those things. And so whether or not it stays to where I think right now, if you wanted to, you could access it as a, you know, it went away for like 24 hours and now it's back. But whatever happens with it, I will maintain my stance that I strongly would advocate for Christian parents to not really let that be an option for your young person. And I would, I would advocate for a 19, 20 year old young person who's trying to make his or her way in the world, man, keep your brain cells like just find other ways to entertain yourself that aren't going to be quite as damaging to your attention span and stuff. Jack, what about you? [00:53:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I, man, I, I just feel like it's the worst of social media from the stuff that leaks onto other sites of all the dumb trends start there. All the, yes, good things can be posted on there. Absolutely. But. And you see this. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Oh, used it as well. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and you see what it does. I mean, like, I'm not going to get into Israel, Palestine, here But like, you can just instantly, overnight turn kids who don't even know anything about these conflicts into like, raging street marching protesters. You know, they're doing the. For them, from the river to the sea. It's like, can you name what river and sea you're talking about? Like, you probably can't, but, you know, Tick Tock told you to. So they did. And so this idea, this. I've come a long way on this kind of thinking in the last few years politically, but, like, sometimes government needs to help people, like, save people from themselves because they're too dumb. Like, China kind of. There's. There is the stuff. There's kind of an online debate a year or two ago about China's version of Tick Tock that they allow where they limit kids and the kind of content they. The algorithm pushes versus over here. It's the dumbest stuff. It's the outrage stuff, it's the sex stuff. It's the, like, it's very much a demoralization tool. And so since, you know, it's being weaponized against you, I, Yeah, I don't see a lot of redeeming values there. [00:55:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I will's outing me on this. It's a. It's an Act 17 going to Mars Hill where the people are right now. [00:55:18] Speaker B: No, I think. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Just kidding. [00:55:20] Speaker B: You're gonna give me the green. Give me grief for being a nerd. But it's a Boromir looking at the ring. Like, we can use this evil thing for our, you know, like, you know, look at the numbers. [00:55:28] Speaker A: Here's reference. [00:55:30] Speaker C: Wow, such a nerd. Some of us read books. I'm too busy trying to get on Tick Tock. [00:55:35] Speaker B: I was about to say, if Tick Tock goes down, you guys have time to catch up on some culture. [00:55:40] Speaker C: So the funniest thing is I am the most social media illiterate person that I know. One of the most. Just hardly on it at all. So that is funny. But, yeah, the temptation is not supported. No, not in the least. And even if Elon. Even if Elon or anybody else were to buy. It's exactly as you guys talked about the evils on it. It's not just this Chinese spyware that is a social element to it, but it is the moral. So I don't have much to add to you guys. Yeah, it's a. I would love. [00:56:12] Speaker A: There's just 101 reasons why not to. And the reasons for it is like, okay, it's entertaining. Great. Sorry, that's not good enough. Like, Right. [00:56:22] Speaker C: Everything else that you could say is a good thing you could find elsewhere, including entertainment. You could find that elsewhere. YouTube has a ton of videos. It's but there are and now you got to be careful on that too. But it does not carry the same level of addiction level and everything else. So yeah, it's just an interesting discussion and we'll see where it goes from here as we're recording this and it's dropping on the 20th of January. So if you're listening to this in like July of 2025, like what in the world. But yeah, for everybody that this is just dropping. It's interesting stuff. But let us know in the comments as well. Of course. For the deep thinkers on the Patreon on our Patreon, get your comments in by Wednesday night. We'd love to hear your comments specifically going back to the benevolence and giving and 10 the tithe. Do you think it's a good idea for churches to establish budgets and and things surrounding it with pledges and so we want to get your thoughts on all of that. Stay tuned for part two as it comes to preacher pay and other things as well. Fellas, anything else before we wrap up? [00:57:15] Speaker B: I'll just always give the plug. You say join us on the deep end, focuspress.org/ + we've had a little bit of a swell, a little bit of a nice upsurge and so join the crowd. Come along, drop your comments, get the deep end and a bunch of other stuff every week. So give that plug before we get out of here and I think we'll wrap right there. We'll talk to you guys next week.