The Non-Institutional Churches of Christ

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Joe Wilkie, will harab once again, but this time we have a special guest. We're very excited about our guest this week because this is a much requested topic from our listeners and something that we are all very interested in. [00:00:24] Speaker C: Our list for two years I feel [00:00:26] Speaker B: like we've been teasing it and people keep saying where's the episode? Like well hang on, we're going to get there. So we brought on Jacob Hudgens. Jacob is an evangelist at the Twin City Church of Christ in College Station, Texas, as you can see with his Texas A and M shirt there. And he's also an author. He's written a number of books. His most recent one is the Way of a Christian Plan for Porn Recovery. Obviously that's a passion point for us for Joe. Joe does that work as well? Is written on that as well. So we're very excited to see that from him. So a lot of good resources he has on his website which I wanted to give you there. Jacobhudgens.com Easy enough. Thanks for joining us, Jacob. [00:01:03] Speaker D: Absolutely. So excited to be here and happy to have a conversation about some of this stuff with you guys. Glad to get to know y'. All. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah. The other thing is this is 9 o' clock at night on a Wednesday night. So very kind of him. Very generous with his time. We really appreciate it. Thankful. [00:01:17] Speaker C: His church we don't record during banking hours like ever, basically. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Right. Exactly. The other thing is we've got a lot of questions for him right before we get into him. It's we're kind of putting him in a tough spot in that some of it's going to be answering for himself. Some of them is going to be answering for a broad movement. And so we're going to kind of let him work between those two things. We're really putting him on the spot here. So we want to thank him for taking on these, these tough subjects. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Well, and to give a brief background for this, as we talked about, we kind of been teasing this for two years. We wanted to do this justice. We wanted to make sure that we are not misrepresenting anything. That's why we brought Jacob on. I think he's going to do a great job just talking off air. I think there is a, there's a lot to get into. There's a ton of questions in a lot of background and we've been trying to read up as much as possible. Been reading a lot on the non institutional side. None of the three of us come from a non institutional background, but two of us will, and I currently attend non institutional churches. And so there's a bit of a, it's interesting for us, we don't come from this background. I don't always necessarily agree with the positions. Jacob doesn't necessarily agree with ours, but we can sit down and have a great dialogue. And so I'm really excited about that portion of it of like, yeah, we want to do this justice. We want to make sure. And to that end, anybody that's looking for like some major knockdown, drag out debate, you got the wrong podcast. That's not what we're here for. We are here to I think find points of maybe division, points of unity as well and just have a really good conversation surrounding these things. And so, yeah, I'm excited. Jacob, thank you again for joining us. [00:02:47] Speaker D: Absolutely looking forward to that. And definitely, just for clarity's sake, I was raised in non institutional churches and I preached for 22 years in four different non institutional groups. So you can see that's a different perspective than the one you guys come from. But I just believe no matter who we are, we can always sit down, especially as brothers in Christ, and talk about spiritual things and come to at least some measure of agreement, even if there are still some things that are better differences. [00:03:19] Speaker C: And that's always been one of the points of this podcast. So with that, guys, I'm going to go ahead and get us into kind of the, the first question that we've got here. And Jacob, obviously I'll hand it to you here. So let's say that, you know, there's somebody who is, is fairly unfamiliar with that whole, even the term non institutional institutional versus non institutional. How would you explain that to, to somebody like kind of in a nutshell and you know, quick, you know, snippet, what does that, what does that phrase non institutional mean? And then I know we've got on here as well, like, is that the preferred term? Because I know there's, there's other terms. Growing up I heard it called, you know, anti antis, essentially. Listen to a sermon that was just frankly not very impressive at all from somebody in our camp that called it anti ism in a kind of pejorative way. And so that, you know, like we're very curious in the sense of like, is non institutional? Is that an acceptable preferred term? And just again, for somebody who might be a little bit unfamiliar, like, how would you define that phrase? If that makes sense? [00:04:30] Speaker D: Sure. I find non institutional probably the closest neutral term you Know, because it does describe the position, although there's a cluster of positions that usually go along with that. Like institutional speaks to. Does the church use its money to support some kind of human institution, like a college or a missionary society or a orphanage or something like that? Whereas there are some other things that have to do with, like how a church does its evangelism, like the sponsoring church arrangement, and also some issues about church recreation and social stuff that usually they all lump together. And so non institutional does describe some of that. But I will say it's. It's better than anti because, like, who wants to be anti? Everything, which is. I think it's always doesn't seem to [00:05:24] Speaker C: be the kindest term. [00:05:25] Speaker D: Yeah. Kind of pejorative in our circles. Honestly, I think most of us would refer to it as conservative and liberal, which is also kind of pejorative. So I think institutional, non institutional is about as close as we can get. But when you ask the question, like, how would I explain it? I would just say the position I hold, the way I think about the church and the way I present the church and its work, the local church, I mean, is that we're capable of following the New Testament pattern of what we do as a church in evangelism and in benevolence. We don't need to go outside our group. We don't need to have other groups that do that for us or make those decisions for us. But we're going to take care of that by sending money directly to preachers, or we're going to take care of that by taking care of the work that we have under the oversight of our elders. And that work is also spiritual, not primarily physical. So there are going to be some things that we say, no, that's not really the purview of the church. And if we want to do some things, like especially social things, you know, that's going to be something we do individually or we do as families within the group. But it's going to kind of be a different way of doing the church together and then having other offshoots of that. We just say we can do it in a simple, straightforward, local way. And that's the way we like to do the work. Because that's the way we see it in the New Testament. [00:06:54] Speaker A: We're going to get into, obviously, dig into that a little bit more, get into some of the teachings and things like that in a bit. I'm curious, though, on the history of this. I was reading something that I had it pulled up here from Truth magazine. Going back to the American Christian missionary society in 1849. But then I read other things that obviously by 1860 or 1960, rather, things were pretty well separated. You know, early 1900s, I read a couple different things. So what exactly is the history of the split? Because I know there was a division at one point. [00:07:23] Speaker D: Yeah. So a lot of people don't know that it was originally a part of Alexander Campbell's American Christian Missionary Society, 1849, and that it was a big issue in the 19th century. And it really was one of the two issues, along with instrumental music, that led to the split with Disciples of Christ. And I think a lot of that history has kind of been forgotten because it's kind of recurred about 100 years later. But really, the force that brought all this to bear was post World War II Prosperity. Lots of churches had a lot more money and also a lot more kind of evangelistic vision. So a lot of zeal to evangelize Europe and Japan. But there were some new ways that was being done. Certain churches would say, we're going to be in charge of a certain mission field, and. And so send your money to us, and we'll take care of the mission work. And so it kind of became. Instead of each church supporting a man, it kind of became churches sending money through other churches and, you know, developing oversight things. So that was part of it. And then kind of closely associated or concurrent with that was colleges, Christian colleges, kind of starting to ask churches for money, or at least that became more widespread in that time. And then that kind of got linked to the orphanage question. In other words, can or should a church take treasury money and support these things that are not really the church, they're outside the church. And so the history of it, as I understand, and of course, this is my grandfather's generation. It's not mine. But as I understand it, there were objections and concerns, and a lot of those were discussed publicly, sometimes in debates, but mostly through the papers and the periodicals that went around in those days. And there came a point where there was just a decision made, especially by the. The infamous one is good pasture and the Gospel advocate saying, we're not going to talk about this anymore, and not allowing that position to be represented in the paper. And so the things that I've heard about the history are very personal For a lot of the preachers that were preaching in that time that they. They were fired. They were. Sometimes there was fights over the building. They were a lot of emotional scar [00:10:03] Speaker C: tissue, I would imagine. [00:10:04] Speaker D: Yeah. And if you Talk to some of the guys that live through that. I mean, you can. You can hear it. It's bitter. And if you study the history, especially if you read the debates, it's really like nothing else I've read among our brethren. In terms of vitriol, it's just extremely bitter. And I would say for some it's still very raw, even, you know, 70 years later, because of the way it cut through families. But I think on the non institutional side, there is this feeling like we never were allowed to discuss and work through this. And there were some things that were conscientious problems for a lot of people that were just. As we introduce new practices into the church, we want to have a say in whether or not we should do that. And that was not really allowed in certain places. I had a couple here in College Station. It was a widow who helped start this group, and she said we were not allowed to talk about those issues in the church in the other town. We had to go and start a new church just so we could talk about it. And it's kind of surprising to hear that. To me, honestly, usually the more conservative side is the. Is the censuring, let's quiet everything downside. But this seemed to be the we don't want to talk about it side. And so if you ever sense some sensitivity, I think that's where a lot of that comes from. In addition, like a little bit later in the 60s, the, the recreation idea came along and there was more of an emphasis on are we going to build fellowship halls or gyms or that sort of thing, which is sort of a separate issue. But it kind of became a part of that cluster of things that, you know, if we're not going to spend our money on institutions and things like that, we're not going to spend our money on things that are not really the spiritual part of the work. So those things kind of got tied together. And so I consider them sort of part of the issues there. But even though non institutional doesn't really fit it. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Go ahead, Will. [00:12:14] Speaker C: I'm sorry, I was just going to say just one note on the history, Jack, and it's all yours. In multiple pieces of kind of research that I did, the Herald of Truth broadcast kind of came up as a kind of signature moment in this whole division. I think it was the Highland Church of Christ, and essentially it was a radio program that then turned into a television program that the Highland Church of Christ was basically soliciting funds for. And then that turned into, hey, just pay, you know, Essentially send money to this bigger organization. And then that was kind of a, again, kind of a linchpin moment in a lot of this. And so I don't, I guess I don't really have a question in there other than that's something else I found as well within the history, within my research of like that was kind of a big. Because that broadcast was apparently reaching tens of thousands of people and it was growing rapidly and so it superseded the elders ability to kind of oversee it. And that's where a lot of the resistance, I think came in. Is that a kind of a fair characterization as well? [00:13:18] Speaker D: Yeah, I think especially it kind of, I think some brethren looked at that and said this is kind of like nationalizing a brand, outsourcing evangelism. It's, it's, we're, we're like a denomination. We talk and think and act like a denomination. We've got our preachers up against their preachers. And also there is this, yeah, I'll cut a check and we're sending it to Herald of Truth and they'll do the preaching. And you know, there is some of that, I think, I think some of that tension is inherent in anytime you support evangelism outside your group. But, but that idea was still problematic because it, it's going through another church and basically another church where we're just saying you do our evangelism for us. [00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. When the hurt feelings. One of the research, I was pieces of research was the Dallas meeting, which in full on the Progressive Primitivist YouTube channel. Very interesting stuff. But unfortunately a lot of it was back and forth like, well, no, you shoved us out. No, you didn't want to be part of us and you just kind of trying to litigate whose fault it was. And like man, you hate to see brothers doing that with each other. But you could see, as you were saying, there's a lot of sore spots there. But you mentioned some of the things that became tangentially connected to all of this. And that's one of the things we want to ask about is what falls under the umbrella. Because when I put out on Facebook asking people what would you like us to discuss? A lot of people tied issues like you mentioned the recreational facilities, the kitchens, things like that in the church building. But then other things, sometimes you'll hear one cup connected to it. Churches that don't believe in a located minister or like paid ministry staff, non Bible class churches, things like that, essentially [00:15:05] Speaker C: things they don't believe. The New Testament gives authority for Right. [00:15:08] Speaker B: And so a pattern for you. Do they fall under the new non institutional heading? Is that like kind of an aside? Where. Where do you categorize those as part of all this? [00:15:19] Speaker D: Oh, that. That's kind of a different set of issues. [00:15:23] Speaker B: So that's a misconception then. [00:15:24] Speaker D: Yeah, it is. So my understanding is most of those divisions happened in, like, the. The 1910s and 20s and over, especially over Bible classes and one cup. But, you know, the churches that I've been associated with, we've always had multiple cups. We've always had Bible classes. I'm a located preacher. But, you know, there might be times where the men share the preaching, but it's not because of some conviction. It's just kind of the way they want to do it. But I think there is kind of a lumping together of a lot of that. And we've had that here in town where people would say, even though we have Bible class on the sign, they would say, oh, those are. Those people. They don't believe in Bible classes. So I think there's a lot of. And one of the reasons I appreciate you guys talking about this with me is that it's sort of like segregation over the years has turned into we don't know each other at all, and we don't know, like. I think we all think the other side is super crazy, and we don't know how crazy or what kind of crazy. And I think it. Until you actually ask the questions and sit down and talk about it, I think we, you know, we're kind of left in the dark about that. And that goes both ways, by the way. [00:16:37] Speaker B: It's very easy to see something different and just put everything in the box of different, and it's just one big box. [00:16:44] Speaker C: Well, and when there are, you know, certain, you know, messages that can get put out via, you know, on either side or whatever, that can kind of cast aspersions. Joe, I heard you use that last week in the episode. Appreciate that. My, my, my phrase, there's, you know, cast aspersions on the other side in kind of a malicious way of like, well, these people all believe da, da, da, da, da, Right? And, you know, you can. That's typically done in debate fashion, right? Putting out straw men or whatever it is to try to kind of cast the opposing side as basically as bad as you possibly can. But I think that's probably added the confusion because if you're sitting. I'm just thinking from somebody like myself who's grown up in an institutionalized, you know, mindset, My entire life if I'm listening to a sermon from somebody about what non institutionalism is and they group all these things in together. Well, if I don't go do my own research, that's all I'm going to have to know. Like, okay, so I'll start mentally associating all these other things that Jack just went over with oh, non institutionalism or antis or whatever word people use. And so most people aren't going to go do their own research. And so I think that has led to a lot of the misconceptions, a lot of the. And again like you said, it can certainly go both ways. And I'm sure does go both ways. Ways led to a lot of the misconceptions on both sides, I'd imagine. [00:18:04] Speaker D: Yeah, I've been told we don't believe in water fountains and oh, what was it? Eating in the building. I get a lot, you know, you don't believe in eating in the building which is, you know, can't give the [00:18:17] Speaker C: two year old Cheerios. Type of thing. Yeah, I heard that. [00:18:19] Speaker D: Yeah. And you can hear how those are like old debate arguments that kind of got a life of their own. Right. But I think they distract from like the core issue which my concern is always just not understanding the real issue. Like the real issue is on the issue of eating is not where do we eat. It's, you know, is the church authorized to provide for recreation? Like is that something we're supposed to be doing? And, and that's a question I think we all have to answer and not just like say oh well let's, let's not make dumb rules that there's no authority for. It's like, no, let's actually think about that question. So you're exactly right. [00:18:58] Speaker A: I'm curious to that end, are there more within the non institutional churches, more progressive versus conservative, like some that will take on. Because as you're saying that's not across the board. You know, every single one of these, the no Bible classes or whatever it may be. Do you find there being more conservative versus liberal even within the. Because obviously from an institutional point of view there absolutely is. I mean there's like Otter Creek. I don't even think it's church Christ anymore, but like it was for a long time and they are out there and they're accepting things like women preachers and we're going, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, that's not church Christ. That's not so way on the liberal side. There are some on the very conservative end that are pretty pharisaical, depending on how you look at it. And so broad spectrum within ours, within institutional, from a non institutional, same concept. And are there those that kind of bind more of those things? And is that, Sorry, there's a lot of questions, but is that even viewed as like, is the more conservative one the one that doesn't have Bible classes, quote unquote, and the more liberal one is the one that makes room for that? Like are there divisions within you guys that breaks that up. [00:20:04] Speaker D: So like the, the no class brothers, I, I have encountered them once or twice, but like they don't, we don't have like close fellowship with them. They don't, like, I don't preach gospel meetings for them or anything. In, in your question, is there a spectrum? I kind of, I would say like we're individual so like of course there's going to be a wide spectrum of, of who you get, but I would just say like there is kind of a, a spectrum of liberal to conservative, but I would say it's much narrower. Like the full scope of the spectrum is smaller because if you get very liberal, you're just not going to stay in a non institutional church. And you may go to a mainline church, you may go to a non denominational church, you may go to a denomination, I don't know, but you're probably not. And I've seen that happen. But that doesn't, like, it doesn't stay very well. Whereas there are brethren that are more conservative and some get so conservative that they become the only ones that they think are right. And so there, you know, there is that spectrum. But I do, like one thing that I think is different is I'll say and I'm, I'm 44 and I, in my lifetime I have not seen in the churches that I've been associated with any major changes in worship and practice. It's just not happened. So like the idea that, you know, we're, we have a progressive wing, I think there, there is the, you know, every once in a while, once in a blue moon, a church does something very different. But most of the time, you know, we're kind of staying within a certain range. So. So yeah, there's a difference, definitely difference of ways to talk about things and think about things and a variety of expressions and some churches are like friendlier than others, you know, and stuff like that. But. And some, you know, are going to preach in different styles and stuff like that. But in terms of like the practices, I would say it's a pretty narrow spectrum Even though there is some conservative and liberal difference. [00:22:21] Speaker B: So essentially like if a church is starting to bring on instruments or they're starting to bring on women in ministry, they're going to abandon the institutional concerns, things like that. [00:22:29] Speaker D: Yeah, usually long before that. Yeah. So they, they all. And, and you know, when churches do that, which, which does happen occasionally, not often in my hearing, you know that word gets around on that where like we. Oh yeah, they, they're using institutions or they're doing something different. And, and that happens sort of long before the women, women preachers and such like that. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Hey guys, Jack here. I'm excited to tell you about my new book. You Are the Christian's Assurance. For too many years I have run into Christians who aren't really sure where they're gonna go when they die. They don't feel like they can say that they are righteous. And so I set out to write a book to give you confidence and assurance of your salvation. It's laid out in 13 chapters for churches to study as a Bible class with discussion questions at the end of each chapter. And of course you can just read it on your own either. It's for individuals, it's for classes. However you would like to approach it, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it on Focus Press. We offer discounts for group sales of it in groups of 5 and 10 on Focus Press. So if you're gonna study it with your church, be sure to check that out and get that deal. So be sure to check out yout Are Saved Today once again on Amazon and Focus Press. [00:23:44] Speaker C: Jacob, I want us to get to the Bible here, but before I, before we get there, I kind of want to, for our listeners sum up kind of my understanding. And obviously this is why you're on the show because people aren't here to listen to. My understanding of this, but for the non institutional perspective is that it primarily has to do with using the church's treasury money for things that they don't believe the New Testament authorizes use for that. That's kind of the base of it because again, a lot of people can, can hear on social and think oh, you guys don't have kitchen or you know, don't have kitchens, you don't sp. Orphanages, you know, kind of the, again the, the big ticket items that people think of. Is it safe to say that just so much of it can be, or virtually all of it maybe in your perspective can be boiled down to churches that, you know, we give every single Sunday that becomes the church's Money, the Lord's money, that there's not authority to then take that money, support parachurch organizations with it, which would include things like children's homes and orphanages and, you know, the Herald for Truth or whatever it is, colleges, things like that. There's also no authority, as you kind of spoke to already, to use the, use money to pay for social fellowship events. There's not authority to build a playground for kids at the, you know, thing like, is that a pretty fair characterization of kind of the main hang up? And the main difference is that it all really boils down to the church's treasury money and what it can and can't be used for. I don't want to boil everything down to just that, but that's what it seems like to me is kind of at the heart of a lot of it. Is that safe to say? [00:25:27] Speaker D: Yes, I think that's mostly, I think that, yes, it's about church funds, but like I would also say, church funds are indicators of how you view what the church is and what the church does. And so like I, I do suspect that sometimes the differences belie a deeper difference about a vision for the church, which is especially this. Is the church sufficient as a local church? Is a local church sufficient to do its work or do we need something else? And that question, I think is a, is a probing question because, and it's probing for us to, because, you know, we have our ways of supplementing the local church's work too, just not by building institutions. And so that question, though, then you look at what the, you know, the, the budget says about that and you get some answers about what you think about the church and its, its sufficiency. And then the other part is, is the mission primarily physical or primarily spiritual? What's, what's the nature of the mission? And I think sometimes you can see it through that. So, but, but in answer to your question, yeah, I don't want to shut you down. You're exactly right in terms of the way that plays out. I think one of the, in the, in the discussion, you, you kind of hit on this, and I think it's a key distinction that has been a point of contention throughout these debates, which is there's a difference between what I do as an individual believer and what we do as a local church collectively. Right. Especially you can see it in terms of money, but I think it's not just in terms of money. It's kind of a broad principle. And so like I would say Ananias and Acts, chapter five, where Peter says to him, you know, while it was yours, while it was unsold, this property, was it not your own? Was it not at your disposal or in your control, depending on your translation? You know that there's a difference in what I do with my money and what the church does with the money that we've collected for spiritual purposes. And the same with First Timothy 5, 16, which talks about, I have responsibilities to my family, believing man or woman has widows. You know, don't let the church be burdened. You take care of your responsibilities. The church has others. And even I would even put in Matthew 18, 15, 17, which says, you know, if my brother sins against me, I go tell him his fault between me and him alone. That's not something the church needs to be involved in yet. Only if he refuses to hear. And then we go through the steps there, and then I tell it to the church. So there's distinctions that I think the New Testament makes between me as an individual and the church. And I think that distinction matters in terms of I may have different responsibilities, even different ideas of what I should do, but I don't run those through the church and see, what does everybody else think? I am free. But when we come to the church and we come to the church's funds, or even just a decision the church makes, that's a different animal. And so we seek authority. What does Jesus want for us to do as a collective? And that then leads to us interpreting these questions about, okay, he wants us to evangelize. We see the early church evangelizing. He wants us to share with needy Christians. We see the early church doing that. He wants us to worship together. He wants us to build up the church. And like Ephesians 4 says, where we're edifying one another, he wants those things so we know that those are things that we use our time and money and energy for. But then there are other things that, you know, are we adding to that? Are we doing it in New Testament ways? Becomes a different question. So, yeah, I think it boils down to the money, but I don't want it to seem quite as nitpicky as, you know, oh, I looked on your budget and you spent it on this. And that's not right. [00:29:39] Speaker C: It's a biblical authority question, I would say. [00:29:42] Speaker D: Exactly. Exactly. [00:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:43] Speaker C: So that. That's where I was going to go next. I'm sorry, Joe, you. I've been talking. [00:29:46] Speaker A: No, I was just going to ask real fast, what is the cooperation, like, in between churches in terms of, like, okay, let's say you got another non institutional church down the road, 15 minutes down the road. Do you guys get together four times of either fellowship or singing, you know, church singings, whatever it may be. Like, what is the working together look like for, for you guys? [00:30:09] Speaker D: Yeah, well, we, we do stuff together and you know, we'll have spiritual events together or socialize together and you know, there's, there's fellowship in, in all the different senses. Especially, you know, we, we share things and, and this is true, like for me, even with the institutional churches in town, which we have a couple here in town, you know, I share information or you know, there's something relevant that's going on that affects more than just us. But, but it's a little different relationship than with the non institutional churches where we have agreement. And so, you know, those are things. But we definitely, in terms of cooperation, like, I don't know, there's cooperation in the way, all the ways that word is used. Like. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:30:59] Speaker D: We're not, we're not doing like let's pool our money and go do a joint evangelism thing, but we might go do something together. And so I don't know if that helps. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it does. I guess that's where my. Not hang up. But where my question comes from is like, there is a strong emphasis on the individual church. I'm not saying. And there's like the universal church too, but a strong emphasis, the getting together. And like, as you talk about the cooperation, it's a loaded term that could mean a lot of different things. So concepts of like, okay, if we were to get together and do, I don't know if you're familiar with polishing the pulpit, that is not something that you guys would support. I would imagine not something non institutional would support, but maybe like a seminar. If you were to bring in, as I think we were talking off air about you guys bringing in the speaker, if you were to have everybody come together for a seminar, that would be perfectly okay. Correct. Just because it's two churches fellowshipping, but it's not an organization. So it really comes down to just the organizational element of it. Right. The institution element. [00:31:56] Speaker D: Right. Well, and it's not something when you talk about polishing the pulpit or you know, really any, anything that an organization does, it's not that the organization is wrong, it's that the, the church is not gonna be a part of supporting that. But that's not the way the church does its work. So, so, you know, like I, I support organizations or, and, and we have this question with, with orphanages and things like that. Like it's not, it's not that orphanages are bad, orphanages are a good work and everybody, you know, like agrees that this is important work. It's about how it's connected to the church and how the funding works. So yeah, so those, those types of things, lectureships or whatever, there's no problem there and there's no problem with us as individual Christians, you know, going to those or supporting those. It's more how is this done and how it relates to the church. [00:32:52] Speaker B: So the eldership isn't ceding their oversight, I guess is one of the big sticking points. [00:32:58] Speaker D: Yeah, that's another aspect. I didn't touch on that. But when you talk about institutions and this really came up when you talked about orphanages, which were often run by a board, the board is making the decisions for what happens with the churches work and, and that really troubled a lot of non institutional brethren. Like how can this be the pattern you see in the New Testament when we're supposed to be making those decisions about what we're doing and we're going to be held accountable for those and we're kind of seeding it. [00:33:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that word outsourcing kind of came up when it comes to kind of the authority and on the work and all that. So I know you brought up a few Bible passages a second ago to kind of illustrate the difference between the way the New Testament views an individual's responsibility versus the church's collective responsibility. So for some of these kind of, I guess tenets, you might say, or principles of the non institutional position, one of the questions we have is, you know, this is not at all a debate, but let's say it was a debate and you were trying to present your side, your perspective. Where would you go in the Bible, biblical evidence, to kind of support some of those positions, you know, again, kind of centering on the use of church funds, opposed to, you know, recreation, social activities, obviously the, you know, the parachurch organization stuff, kind of the stuff we've been talking about, like where would you go in the Bible and kind of in addition to where you've already brought up to kind of support that position. [00:34:30] Speaker D: Sure. So I would start by saying, and I think this is important, I don't feel like I have to justify not doing it. I feel like people who want to do it have to justify doing it. And that way it's very similar to me to instruments where I can know that I'm following the New Testament because it doesn't mention, you know, church use of instruments. So I, I don't have to say, oh, this is why I don't. But if you're going to do it, then you have to kind of provide a case. And I, I think that's the case with these issues. Like, if we're going to do it in a way that's not present in the New Testament, I think we have to present an argument and a passage as to why. So that, that would be the first thing I would say that that's not to say I don't have anything, any passages, but it is kind of a, a perspective shift, I think, especially because when you, when you say a group is just full of antis. And that they're just, you know, then you start to say, why are you so squeaky? Why are you, why can't you just be okay, what's your objection? And it, it's actually kind of reversing the burden of proof. But in terms of passages, I would just say let's, let's look at the New Testament record on what churches did to spread the gospel. So I'm going to look at early churches like Acts 11. I'm going to talk about the church in Jerusalem sending Barnabas to Antioch or Acts 13, the church at Antioch sending Paul and Barnabas out on the missionary journey. I'm going to talk about Philippians 4 where Paul talks about the Philippian church sending and receiving so that he had what he needed. And he also talks about the church in Thessalonica. And we'll talk about 2 Corinthians. I think it's 11 where he says, I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. So what did they do? It's pretty clear they sent to Paul. And then I would kind of add in these are ways they are fulfilling, like 1 Timothy 3:15, pillar and ground of the truth type idea. And sometimes first Thessalonians 1:8 gets thrown around. I'm not really comfortable with that in this discussion because I think he's talking about something else. But the, the passages that, that would say, you know, the church is spreading the gospel and the church is sounding forth the word. The church is doing that work. I think, you know, sending money to Paul is the primary way that happens. And then I would talk about benevolence, which is another thing that the New Testament church does. I would look at Acts 6 where they were giving the daily distribution for the, the needy widows in the church. And we would talk about Acts 11 where there's a famine in Jerusalem. And the church in Antioch sends money to help from. From one church to another in Acts 11. And talk about how Paul made the collection, First Corinthians 16, for the needy saints in Jerusalem. And, you know, obviously talked to the churches in Galatia. He talks about it, Romans 15 as well. So I'm tracing all those things. I'm kind of looking at what were they doing as a group and then what are they collecting money for? And when they do collect money, what is that for? And how is that? How does that work? Because, like, you can hear undergirding, that is, I want to be like the New Testament Church. I want to do what they did. And when I see what they did, I say, okay, let's do that. I think there is an assumption that what's written there is not just, you know, well, they didn't know what an institution was yet, or they were just poor and they didn't have any money. I think instead it's something more like, this is the way they did it, and it was pleasing to God. So I want to do it that way. Then I would say, you know, I would talk a little about worship and the kind of the nature of local church life. Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, Hebrews 3, 12 and 13 talk about exhorting and edifying in Ephesians 4, talking about speaking the truth in love so that the whole body grows. And so I'm working all of this to say there was a spiritual focus. They were speaking into each other's hearts and lives. They gathered together and Acts 2:42, you know, they had fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers and the apostles teaching. So I'm looking at these passages, and I'm saying, there is a vibrant model for what churches did, and I want to do that. So then I start asking, okay, how did they do that? How did churches do evangelistic work? Pretty directly they sent money to Paul. They didn't really send it through each other or one church overseeing a mission field or that sort of thing. I see benevolence, which. This is a separate issue, but it is what the evidence shows. Benevolence is done from the church to fellow Christians in the New Testament record. And we could, you know, dispute. Are there other passages that would indicate it should be broader than that? But that is what the. The examples show. And then, you know, I would start asking, okay, what do you see here? That's about, you know, playing around, recreation. What do you see here that's kind of about the social part and you have some, I would say, inconclusive passages like Acts 2, 46 and 47 that say, you know, that they were in the temple together and then they were breaking bread in one another's homes. Okay, definitely they were together and they were definitely eating. There's a social component, but it's not really clear, you know, is this the nature of their work? You know, is this spiritual? Is it physical? And it's also not clear. Is this just something they did for each other, like an individual thing? And usually in this discussion, somebody will bring up First Corinthians 11, where Paul is rebuking the church in Corinth about the Lord's supper. And don't you have houses to eat and drink in? [00:40:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:53] Speaker D: Have you got houses to eat and drink in? Boy, this can be a mess. Because people, I think, can really misunderstand this. I do not think that First Corinthians 11 is the passage I would go to to say, you know, that a fellowship hall is wrong. I think First Corinthians 11 is a passage I would go to to say the nature of the church and her worship is spiritual, not physical. And when they made it into a meal that was more social than spiritual, they are rebuked for it. I think it's sort of. What's the word? Ambivalent toward the question of should the church gather for a social meal. I just don't think it really touches it. Instead, what I would just say is there's not really evidence that that's what the New Testament Church did. So for me, it becomes a question of if we're going to follow that pattern and we see all these passages kind of working together to, to give you a picture, then there's some things we're just not going to do. And that doesn't mean I've got to be salty about it, and it doesn't mean I've got to be critical about, you know, people that choose to do that. But it does mean. I don't think that's following the New Testament pattern because it's not something just [00:42:17] Speaker C: to be clear, that's part specifically. Are you talking about getting together to eat in general or using, again, church funds, church sponsored meal, church sponsored meals, [00:42:29] Speaker D: you know, to build facilities for it, church funds to, you know, book the bus to Six Flags, you know, that kind of thing? Not, not at all. Like, we're, we're regular people. We get together and eat. You know, we all like to eat and play. And, and, and that is an important part of who we Are as Christians we want to be connected and that requires time together. I just am not convinced that's a local church. Provided responsibility. [00:43:04] Speaker B: In depth, but easy to understand. That's how War in heaven, War on earth. What the book of Revelation meant to the original readers and what it means for us today has been described. An Amazon reviewer said it was the best commentary on Revelation he had read in 50 years. Bradley Cobb spent literally thousands of hours researching and putting together this material. Showing how first century Christians, the ones the book was written to, would have understood the book, how it matches with the rest of the Bible and how it was something that was about to happen when John wrote it. Thoroughly biblical in his approach, including the dating of the book and supported with first century history. This 550 page book does not gloss over any details and includes points of application throughout each of the book's 48 studies. Great for personal study or for a year long Bible class. Available on Amazon.com in hardcover, paperback or Kindle. [00:43:55] Speaker A: I think it's, you know, a great breakdown. I really appreciate that. A couple questions that I'd have just to get your thoughts real fast on. So a couple different things of like some objections I've heard, some that I've maybe thrown out before. Thoughts on Paul collecting the money as a, you know, kind of a single guy, but everybody's giving to one for the church in Jerusalem, which is the background of First Corinthians 16. Of course, I think some make the case, I don't know, there's a super strong case. But some make the case that there's a level of cooperation among the churches there for a singular church in Jerusalem. Paul's kind of collecting it as a. [00:44:33] Speaker C: They're pulling the money essentially. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Yeah, they're pooling the money type of thing to go help the saints. That I believe is a famine, some say earthquake at the time. That there's a level of. Yeah, I guess church cooperation there. Thoughts on that? Would that fall under, I guess the still supporting the saints, you know, maybe Paul being one guy or do you see that more as a grounds for. Because I think some people would take it as a grounds for. Okay, well, it could be. Paul could be an organization type thing that's merely just transferring the funds to a needy congregation, which you could call Paul the sponsor, whatever it is, you know. Thoughts on that? [00:45:12] Speaker D: I think it kind of depends on your definition of cooperation. Again. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:45:16] Speaker D: Like, I think if you know, like a. So this happens a lot. Every year or two a hurricane will hit somewhere in the southeast and. And the church will be, you know, devastated. And so, like, I think it's an equivalent situation to Acts 11, where, you know, we, we gather money, A local church sends money to that church and that to help those Christians, especially to the elders. The elders distribute it, just like in first in Acts 11. So, but like, the fact that a bunch of different churches might all send to that doesn't. Like, is it cooperation? Well, yeah, I mean, we're doing the same thing, but it's not cooperation in the sense that we're like all plotting and saying, okay, you're going to send this, so I won't, and you're going to. So who's taking it? It's very much a different meaning for cooperation there to me. But in terms of Paul, maybe this is just me being difficult. I don't know. But I do see a difference between giving the money to an apostle in that era and creating an organization in our era. Like, I see a difference. And I, I, I think that's because I think Paul is just, somebody's got to take it. He's trustworthy, he's going to take it. Whereas, you know, we don't really have those same limitations today. But an organization is a whole nother thing to me. [00:46:45] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Another question I have that I want to, I'll give to Jack and Will. Sorry. Talking a lot. Jude12 talks about love feasts. A lot of debate on what exactly that is. You know, the concept, though, of Acts 2, the end of Acts 2, 42, 47. You already referenced that. You know, the love feast, the clear fellowship that is taking place in 1st Corinthians 11. They are having fellowship with one another. My question would be one of expediency. So, for instance, a pitch pipe might be expedient. You know, our call is to worship. A microphone is expedient. A church building to some degree is expedient. Right. You know, like that, that is something that we're not authorized for church buildings. But we would look at it and say, in order to accomplish our purpose, we need a place to meet. Okay, when we gather. So this goes to the purpose, I suppose, of you talking about worship, benevolence, things like that. If we see the church fellowshipping, the church needing to get together, the love feast, the gathering together, and maybe they don't have the same synagogue. Maybe they're gathering in the churches. I don't know. My question would be, is there a level where you could justify a guessing? The answer is no, but I'll let you answer this where you'd be able to justify something like a kitchen through a matter of expediency, to be able to say, okay, we are looking to encourage fellowship, looking to grow closer. You already talked about having times of fellowship yourself. Right. Like, that's not against the rules, so to speak. Of course you want to be close to one another. But looking at it as a matter of expediency, to say same as a church building is not necessarily authorized. It just helps. [00:48:11] Speaker C: I was going to add. Just to add to that, this was a question I was going to ask as well, Jacob. So just if you want to kind of work a similar thing or answer similarly here, that is the. The one maybe piece of. I'll call it inconsistency. I'd love to hear what you. What you would say with a. I mean, we don't, from my perspective, see any biblical authority or pattern for a church purchasing a piece of property to put a building on it or purchasing a building at all. And, you know, talk about a pretty serious financial investment, you know, using the church's funds for that. That's a pretty big, big thing that we don't really see an example of anywhere in the New Testament. And so, you know, that that was going to be. So I'll tie that in with Joe's there if you want to maybe tackle both of those of, like, what is the. I don't want to say justification. That sounds bad. You're trying to justify. You know what I mean? But, like, what is the kind of response. Yeah. Viewpoint on that. Of why purchasing land or purchasing a church building would be acceptable, you know, whereas maybe other things would not. If we don't have the pattern for it, if that makes sense. [00:49:23] Speaker D: I think it's pretty clear. And I mean, just in case somebody's listening and is like, where's your proof? First Corinthians 14 talks about the church gathering to worship, and Hebrews 10 talks about the church gathering to worship. Worship is a priority and God wants us to worship. Worship does require a place. And in the New Testament, as I read it, it looks like they probably mostly met in people's homes. [00:49:51] Speaker C: Homes and synagogues and such. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:53] Speaker D: Somehow they managed that even in Jerusalem, although I think they use the temple for as long as they could. But, you know, the. The idea is, I know God wants us to do this. So I'm kind of with Joe about that. You know, there are going to be decisions we make as we think through, what should we do in order to fulfill God's expectation here. And so that's Something that we collect money to do and to buy property and, or build something because we need a place to worship, because that's the, the central aspect of our work. In terms of the fellowship part, I, I am not convinced that fellowship is like a, a local church work as opposed to an individual work in terms of responsibility. And we do have this discussion with some frequency here. I think I was thinking about this as I was prepping. I think your audience is probably curious as to how a non institutional church actually works. Do we just sit around and not do anything? And it's pretty much everything in terms of youth and what the youth does, or in terms of getting together and having potlucks. In terms of what a church life is like we do individually. So it's not that we think those things are bad. I mean, we all like to eat, we all like to hang out. It's just that we're not convinced that that's. God's assigned that to the local church. And so we take that on for ourselves. And sometimes we fail at that because we're individuals. But you know, it is still something that we do take very seriously. So I'm just not convinced that, that in the same way that worship is. Because I kind of have a hesitation to say that in the same way worship is this significant, that, you know, having meals is that significant. And I'll tell you, my perspective is a little bit colored by the fact that I am convinced this is Jacob, by the way. This is not me speaking for all non institutional people. But I'm convinced that there's a point that we reach where the, the fellowship halls and the family life centers and the dodgeballs and the. I've been in a church that had a room with a wall full of TVs with Xboxes all around and the church of Christ. And I'm just thinking, what does this have to do with Jesus? And that's what I think. What does this have to do with Jesus? Why is this here? And at some point, and I'm not saying that I know exactly where this point is, but at some point we've lost the plot. And I'm very wary of that. I'm protective of the mission of our group. I want us to be focused on Jesus. I want us to be focused on the things we're doing together and how we grow together. And you know, if we can't play, we'll be okay. But the thing that I don't want to lose, the thing that I'm much more concerned about losing is do we have the spiritual focus and the worship focus we need. And so I think if you look at it that way, it's not so much, oh, no, we can't do any of these things. It's that, no, we're so extremely focused on the things we do that those other things, we're just going to do them in different ways in different times. [00:53:18] Speaker B: That's a good point of emphasis. So just to clarify briefly on. You said about like, it's not the church's job necessarily to. However you said on fellowship. So do you not have like congregation wide things or is it, hey, if somebody wants to have everybody over their house, that's cool. But as far as like planning a, hey, we're all going to get together. Just clarifying, like how that works. [00:53:40] Speaker D: Yeah, so usually it's just, you know, the whole group can get together whenever. Honestly, at this point we've grown to a point that space is a problem. But you know, we'll rent out something or you know, have somebody over to the house or, you know, whatever it is, but it'll just be individual rather than collective. And. But, but we definitely do want to do whole group things at times and. But usually for practical purposes, you break it up into different segments of the group. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Not to nitpick when you go to rent a place. I'm assuming individuals are paying for that. [00:54:14] Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. Okay. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we're kind of grilling you here. Sorry, we got a little bit off of the outline. You're being a great sport. [00:54:22] Speaker A: We appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate it. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of, you know, just very much introduction to a new world. One of the really important questions as we're starting to run up against our time here, kind of the big question. Yeah, yeah. Honestly is how is fellowship with what we're calling the mainline churches, of course, Christ, the institutional churches of Christ. How is that viewed? Are we viewed as erring brethren? Is it a difference of opinion? Is it a salvation issue? I mean, there's those terms that kind of mean different things, different people, but like fellowship issues, salvation issues. But I also know there's kind of a spectrum of that, of different views. So, yeah, speaking just as broadly as [00:55:01] Speaker C: you can, you're asking how does Jacob view the three of us essentially? Not necessarily even. [00:55:06] Speaker D: I'm just kidding. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, just in. Not, not even necessarily your viewpoint, just in general, is there outside of the hurt we discussed earlier, what is kind of the current feel? [00:55:18] Speaker D: I. I am honestly, I'm really wary to speak for A whole group. [00:55:24] Speaker B: That's fair. [00:55:24] Speaker D: Yeah, it's, it's. There are so many different thoughts and opinions on this. And, and I'll even tell this to people who ask, you know, what's. What's the mood here? We have people who, who will join us, coming from institutional groups, and they're like, oh, or, you know, do you guys hate them? Are you always talking about them? And the honest truth is we don't really talk about those groups much at all. But I, I do think there are some among us who would say this is sinful, and there are some among us who would say it's not sinful, it's just not a good idea, it's not wise. And then there are some among us who would say it's not a big deal at all, but I'm fine with it, but I'm here and so I'm going to do what this church is doing. And then there are some among us who are like, I don't even know what that is. I have no idea what those issues are. They didn't even notice. I've had people who worshiped here for years and didn't realize that we didn't have a fellowship hall. So, you know, it is, it is what it is. But with that, you can kind of hear there's a different. There's a gradations of views of the other side. I, I would say some would say. I would say very few, but some would say these are like salvation issues and that they're condemning. And then I think most would say there's kind of a. These are my brethren, you know, we both believe in Jesus, we both have obeyed the gospel, but we disagree. And there's a difference here. And I think though it kind of has become less. We don't want to have anything to do with you. Then I'm not sure we're really on Yalls map. And so that's kind of the view. It's kind of. And I think there's a generation that's kind of probably frustrated and a little bitter at kind of being sloughed off and forgotten and so. But I would say generally I don't see the hostility that would say, you know, these are sin or salvation issues. But I do, I, I think it would help most for people to know that these things are convictions, that there are some things I just can't go along with and if you force me, then it's going to create a major problem for me. And like that. That's not. That doesn't mean, I hate you or I don't want to have anything to do with you. It means that, like, I've got to do what I think is right, and I kind of wish that we could all just do the same thing and get along and be okay with that. But, you know, short of that, I think we have to say, you know, we're brethren and we love and respect each other and we want to be able to discuss those differences and hopefully come to some kind of agreement, because I think there is so much more that we agree on than that we disagree on. There's so much more in common than that separates us, for sure. [00:58:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. There's so much more we could ask you, but it's already almost 10 o' clock at night and you've given us an hour and we've grilled you a little bit. We've put on the spot a lot, so we really appreciate it. It's great stuff. And this is exactly everything you said. We just kind of wanted to open up that brotherly fellowship a little bit and just say, hey, as we said, we've had listeners for a long time say, I want to know more about this side of the church because there's so little interaction and we want to be a part of that, and hopefully there's more of it. [00:59:09] Speaker D: I was going to say one of the questions that you had provided me was, you know, how do I see the current state of some of this division? And, and I will tell you, I, I see it thawing and I, I see that from some, like, we. We are interacting a lot more in the places where I am with people coming from mainline churches. A lot of them are. They're frustrated with, especially when instruments are added in, in other churches. And so they start looking around, they realize that. That we're not as horrible as they were told we are. And so they. They come to us and there's just so much better discussion and so much more openness. I also see that. I don't think Facebook is a great place for dialogue generally, but, like, I do see Christians on, on either side of this issue communicating more and connecting more, and that gives me hope. I think that some of the intensity of this issue is, is kind of ebbing and we can actually talk about the substance of it, because I think that needs to be, you know, just a part of our regular discussion. And I think that this separation has been kind of bad for both sides, I think bad for our side in that, you know, there are some things that it's formed us into reactive that I think have not always been good. And I think in some ways things that the other side has gone further than they would have if there was kind of more of a restraining element present. So you know, I'm just looking, I'm optimistic about that going forward that maybe we can have more of these discussions. So thank you guys for including me [01:00:55] Speaker B: in a. Yeah, that's great to hear. I hope, I hope that continues. And again, thank you for, for helping us open that door a little bit and, and I'm sure our audience will be very, very excited and very thankful you came on as well. I mentioned earlier Jacobhudgens.com youm can check out his books and Amazon. They're all on Amazon, right? Alright, so check out Jacob's work. And again, thanks a bunch for coming on and to everyone else, we'll talk to you guys on the next one.