[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome to Think Deeper podcast. Jack Wilkie here joined by Joe Wilkie and Will Harab. We are presented by Focus Press. This week we are talking about the story of the week. If you're watching us on live the fellows just previewed for it previewed it for you a little bit about the Lindsey Clancy case a very tragic case that has kind of taken over social media of a mom who killed her children and the case that's unfolding and the dad's involvement and accusations and allegations but really not just that but what has come of it. It's not just a case in itself of a woman killing her children but a I think it's a million plus dollar go fund me has been raised in for her and her family, her parents I guess in response to this there are TikTok views or videos going mega viral explaining how maybe it was actually the husband's fault and things are not adding up and kind of the Internet sleuthing thing and it's become this massive story and women a lot of women kind of siding with her saying you know we all could be that and a very gruesome story. I don't know what other details you guys want to add to it but that is it's been very strange to watch it unfold especially this last week.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: I think it's I'll just go and kind of share. I think it's important for any for anybody who might not be familiar. You might have maybe heard the name or stumbled across an article or something on social media but not super familiar briefly. I think it might be valuable Joe and you can fill in the gaps for me to at least for us to go over the details that have kind of that are kind of undisputed.
Lindsay Clancy this was I think it was January of 2023 took and prefaced this with we should have done the start. If you are somebody who listens to this with your kids in the car this might be one to paus and resume later on when you don't have young ears around is obviously be some sensitive topics, some sensitive words that are used but yeah as far as details about this go once again pretty undisputed that Lindsey clancy right around 5pm or so she had her children at home with her. She sent her husband Patrick out to CVS to pick up something or other and then to a restaurant to pick up takeout and there's video footage of him doing that, just that. And while he was away she took her three children down to the basement. One age five, one age Three and one in eight months and strangled them. All three of them.
And, yeah, just absolutely disturbing to think about. She then slashed her wrists and then jumped out of the second story window into the snow, which did not kill her, obviously, but it did leave her paralyzed. Her husband Patrick then returned, found her, apparently heard from her that the kids were in the basement. He went down, just awful to think about, discovered them, and then called 911. And that's. That's pretty much everything that has been kind of the short version of it. Joe, any. Any details to fill in there? That's all pretty common knowledge at this point.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, he was on the call with 911. He had stayed on the call. He had let his wife, made sure the paramedics were there, she was stable, then went down and found them. Apparently, the phone call was so disturbing, they wouldn't play it in court or they won't release it to the public, because on the call he finds the kids. And, I mean, it gives you chills, like it is as disturbing of a case as you're gonna find.
And, yeah, I mean, I was reading up on the case a lot more today, obviously, in preparations. We were talking about it. I knew of it. I've been seeing a lot of takes back and forth, but I thought, man, I just need to pull away from all this in, you know, not a take, per se, a lot of different things being said, but what are the facts? And she'd been struggling with postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression for a while.
I believe her son was. Or her youngest child was nine months old. And so she had been struggling with it, I think, going back to, like, November, maybe October, they had said, as it got toward the fall. So a while is relative, but still three, four months of pretty consistent negative thought patterns and depression and just this postpartum struggle that she had. And so in that time, she did seek mental health counseling. You know, she had gone to these.
Even staying in these holds, these places where they hold you for a certain number of hours, and going to these hospitals and such, trying to get placed on psychiatric hold due to her suicidality, suicidal ideation.
And they tried her on a bunch of different medications, trying to help her. She was having problems with sleeping. She was having all sorts of things that were just not going well. And the husband, best I can tell, was very supportive in trying to get her the help. And so. And then even in January, she'd gone and been on a. Been in a hospital for a short time. She released herself. It's My understanding in early January, and they had gone on a vacation, they'd had some days at the park. They actually said that things were actually that, like, they were going better. They were going well when this happened. And so, yeah, the prosecution is looking for a first degree, saying that, hey, she had the husband leave the house. It seems this is very premeditated.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: It was premeditated, right? Yeah.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: And, you know, the. They're all. The defense is going for the insanity plea. They do not disagree that she killed the children, but they are saying they're going for the insanity plea.
[00:05:18] Speaker C: Criminal responsibility.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Due to her postpartum psychosis. Well, this obviously has sparked a huge debate online, and this is where a lot of the millions. I just had it pulled up on the GoFundMe and it was. It's right now. I thought I had seen a million earlier. It's 952,683. So we are, you know, just short of a million dollars being raised. And a lot of the comments for specifically talking about their own.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: For specifically Lindsay. Right.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And her parents and helping with the, you know, with the trial. Legal. Legal, sure. So the Musgroves will control the funds, determine how they are used for the purposes described above. I'm talking about they love their daughter, and there's just a huge financial burden to the parents and to everything else. And so a lot of it underneath, though, is it's more of the comments that you see, which is so much support for her. I struggle with postpartum depression. Even guys saying they struggle with their own mental health. Those are the top two comments right now, as you see, the most recent.
All of these talking about, she's a beautiful person, mother, daughter, now a friend to all of us.
And we're talking about somebody who killed three of her children. And so when you're reading, we see you waking up, Lindsay, you're a beautiful person, mother, daughter, and now a friend.
This is why we thought, man, this is probably something worth talking about, because we know people go through struggles. We know that these things are very real postpartum. And things along those lines, how should the church respond?
What do we give a pass to? You know, those are some of the questions I think that we need to get into for sure.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: And it's good to have a therapist on the episode, because the postpartum depression, that's not going to be most of our discussion here. But we do. We're not.
I think that is where I'm seeing some of the discussion is people immediately going, hey, this is very real. No, we're not saying it's not real, and we're not saying this is not a very difficult thing to deal with. Joe, again, this is your profession. You've dealt with women who are struggling with this. Like, this is something you're familiar with. And so we wanted to get you talking about that a little bit. But as I said, we're not going to spend a lot of time on the reality of postpartum depression. But it is a real thing. It's a difficult thing. But that has almost like, overshadowed or just changed the discussion to. She had that, therefore, nobody can judge. And like. Well, no, that's not. That's a little bit of an overreaction. So if you would talk a little bit about your understanding, your familiarity with it and that it is a very real thing, while it's not the past that it's being made to be and. Well, one of the other things is postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, I guess. Psychosis, difference in terminology that's coming.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: Which, correct me if I'm wrong, Joe. Psychosis is basically, that's where the voices in her head thing came in, the hallucinations, whereas postpartum depression is a few
[00:07:58] Speaker A: steps before that, basically, which my understanding, in her case, she did not actually mention voices in her head until after she had done it, but they still are claiming there's a level of psychosis along those lines.
Postpartum psychosis is like one to two cases out of every thousand.
Whereas you're dealing with. About 10% of women do struggle with postpartum depression. Sometimes it's postpartum anxiety.
And for obvious reasons, in the fact that you, I think, you know, as we think about it, yes, we're guys on the podcast. We all of us collectively have. What is that, 13 kids. We've seen this. We've been around kids, you know, like our wives. We've seen them come through these things.
And so much of postpartum, you are hormonally way off because your hormones are trying to get balanced. After, you know, this birthing experience, you're getting very little sleep. You now have an entire child that is dependent on you and you alone. The dad can't breastfeed, things like that. Like this kid. And their life and their soul is dependent upon you. So the weight of responsibility, I think, like, yeah, you can know that going into it, but there's something about seeing the kid look in your eyes is like, man, this is mine. And if I don't feed this kid this kid starves to death type of thing. And so I think that then the weight of responsibility is huge.
So often a lot of moms don't have a ton of support. Now, this does not mean that it's the husband's fault. You know, and I saw some people pushing that maybe it's the husband's fault for this, which is ridiculous.
But I also know in the cases that I deal with, a lot of times it's isolation. They're not getting a lot of sunlight, they're not getting any, you know, any time to go outside to, you know, get some fresh air. They're not feeling very supported in, you know, being in their motherhood. And so they're struggling. They got a lot of questions about things, about how this works.
And so when they don't feel supported, they feel very isolated. That leads toward depression.
[00:09:44] Speaker C: Can I ask you real fast, just because I'm unfamiliar with kind of how the statistics work, is this something that normally does show up with a first child or maybe a second? Like, it was interesting that, you know, from everything I read that Lindsay really struggled going for like with the third kid. Like she obviously had a five year old, she had a three year old. Like, what, what have you seen? As far as, you know, you would think somebody, again, just logically who's gone through one kid, then two kids and three kids like, that it would kind of smooth itself.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Prepared for it.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: Yeah, more prepared.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: I don't know that I don't know the statistics on it, but I've worked with people or, you know, it doesn't matter if it's their fifth kid. It really depends on what they're going through. Time. It depends. Yeah, it depends on, you know, hormonally, how things were, how difficult was the birth, how much. Because there is a level of trauma going through that if you are having an emergency C section, for instance, like my mother in law almost bled out and died, like, you know, very traumatic type things that take place.
So that leads toward some of these thoughts as well. The psychosis though, is pretty rare, that that does not happen very often at all.
And to me, to plead insanity. Actually, Matt Walsh, he's been all over this case and he takes some pretty, you know, pretty strong stances. I haven't agree with, you know, what he's saying, but one of the things he said is the insanity piece to it. It's really difficult for this case specifically, you know, to say an insanity plea because that is her being perfectly fine, stepping into insanity and perfectly fine on the back End with, which is not really what that plea is for, because anybody could use that. But as far as it goes with mothers struggling with it, we're very mindful of that, and we want to be very compassionate toward the moms who are struggling with a lot of suicidal thoughts, a lot of struggle, you know, a lot of difficult thoughts.
I know there are people out there who, you know, think about harming the children. My struggle with this case is, yeah, she sought some help. But, man, you don't stop seeking help if that's on the table at all, if that's something that you're considering. You do not stop seeking help. Like, you need to move in with your parents or with somebody else and get away from the kids for a time until you've come through it. Because we take it that seriously. Because things like this can go wrong and can happen if taken to the very furthest extent. God forbid in most cases, you know, but it happened here. And I think that is on her for not consistently seeking the help that she should have.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: The idea that I'm not in control of myself, therefore I shouldn't be put away. Like, no, that's why you should be put away. Like, you should go to jail like this. That's just crazy to think, yeah, let's let somebody out on the street who we're not sure if she's in. Like, I don't know. I mean, it's the justice angle of this, with acknowledging the difficulty of this, but also, hey, this. This is a crime. And I think that part is just totally getting lost.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: Well, that's the key. And that's what's, you know, frustrating about how the. From my perspective, from everything I'm reading, what the discourse has been turned into is basically a referendum on postpartum depression. And kind of the take that I've always had with this, that doesn't seem to be that hot of a take, is you can absolutely raise your hand and say, I absolutely believe, first of all, that postpartum depression is absolutely. Obviously it's real, that there are a lot of women that struggle with it, that it is extremely difficult. And I cannot imagine being, you know, going through that as a woman. And I'm also going to raise my hand and say, anybody who kills their three children in. Because I didn't even describe in the brutal way that she did. And you don't. I don't want our listeners to have to picture or imagine the whole horror that these. I mean, these kids are my kids. Ages almost exactly like, oldest was 5. My oldest is about to turn 5, had a 3 year old. I have a 3 year old kid, was 8 months. I got a 14 month old, like.
And so this hits a little closer to home, I guess, maybe for me, as I'm sure it does for a lot of our listeners. Like, I find myself frustrated in the discourse that, you know, somebody who stands up and says, this woman brutally murdered her three children, therefore she should be held accountable for it. People are equating that with essentially an attack on postpartum depression. That's just not the case. Like that. You don't. Conflating those two things is not the answer here. And so obviously all of us here on the same page, that, that, that can't be a pass for something like this.
And so, yeah, I don't, I don't know, Joe, if you have any thoughts, any more thoughts to add to that. But that's kind of been my frustration with the discourse of it up to this point. And I've tried to listen to some of Matt Walsh's stuff as well. And I think he's, I think he's making a lot of good points. I think he has, unfortunately, some of his discourses has turned it into a postpartum debate, which is like, guys, we're not here to debate that. What we're here to talk about is this woman who murdered her three children, Right?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Because I think he had a take that I do disagree with where it's like a lot of postpartum or basically like if you're struggling postpartum, he had something along the lines of you're selfish.
[00:14:23] Speaker C: Like it's just selfishness due to selfishness, right?
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's too bombastic. Can there be a level of selfishness in it? No doubt. On the other hand, a lot of it, once again, like, depression's rooted in loneliness. And it is very lonely and isolating to have a kid and all the things that you had before and whatever. And even if it's on the third, fourth, fifth kid, it doesn't matter. It can be an isolating thing. If you're struggling with it, make sure you're getting yourself some help. Get to a good, good therapist. Talk through your problems and make sure that you're not isolated. Make sure you're talking with people, because depression is rooted in loneliness. And I think there's a level of looking to get yourself out of it. On the other hand, because I want to ask you guys this, at what point do we get past using these things as crutches? I think trying to figure out how I want to phrase that. But even the insanity, you see words like trauma thrown around, abuse thrown around. We see these things as we talk about it. I'm in the mental health field. I hear these things all the time, some of which are very legitimate, some of which I would look at and go, man, I don't think that qualifies at all. But it's these blanket passes, these blanket statements that's like, well, I've experienced abuse, therefore I can treat you however I want. Or, well, I'm going through trauma work, and therefore I can do whatever. Like, I don't. I don't think it's a blanket pass on these things. Same thing with the insanity, the postpartum psychosis. Like, what do we do with that? And specifically, when we think about it, in the church realm, how do we help show up for people with a level of sympathy while also not giving passes for things like this?
[00:15:46] Speaker B: This is one of those that I don't want to, like, get ahead of the outline, but this would never go the other way around. Like, there are men who snap, you know, like, mental, mentally. They just go. And they, you know, sadly murder their whole family or something like that. Nobody goes, well, man, he was going through a lot. It's like, man, it's terrible to support him. Yeah. And people making, you know, videos going, he could have been me. Like, no, no, no, that's not how we're doing this. And so.
But again, well, there's. There's gonna be more to say about that later.
As. As far as.
Again, it's. It's not an excuse. And so you have to get that out of the way. First of all, is like, this does not excuse anything.
And so the other thing about it is, even dwelling on it, you might say, well, it doesn't excuse it, but we need to da, da, da, da. You know, have empathy for the woman or whatever. We have to be very careful with this. Somebody had a great post about what a lot of women are seeing is sympathy, glorification, glamorization, an outpouring of support. Lot of attention, Attention and support for doing this.
We saw this with the school shootings where the copycat was something that happened. It's like, oh, that's a way to become a legend. I'm gonna go do that. You don't want to incentivize that. You want it to be like, this is horrific. It's bad that this happened.
It's bad that she was struggling with stuff that contributed to this. But also, the woman is a Monster. This is something a monster does. Because if a man did this, we'd say he was a monster. There are guys that have done this. There's a professional wrestler guy that did it. I mean like that's how he's remembered. It's very bad. It's unfortunate, but it's, it's not an excuse.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: We have to, we. I made this point before, I think on other, for, for other topics. We have to live in a world ideally where you are, where you are held accountable for actions.
There has to. That's the society that we have to live in is that if you do X, Y or Z, if you commit this act, do this, you will be held accountable for it. And the society that we do have right now, unfortunately is okay, you'll be held accountable for it unless this loophole is found. Unless in the insanity or unless this or that or the other thing. And obviously a case like this is the most extreme nature of that. But Joe, you brought up kind of the, the parallel with like church behavior and things like that very similarly. We have to, we gotta, we've got to make sure people understand. And I think, I think is raising, raising kids. I brought this up before is like, I want my kids to know. You can't just say anything and not expect for there to be consequences for it.
If I work, obviously I operate the Chick Fil a here in Spring Hill. If one of our team members slips up and curses, they're terminated. Like no matter if they, you know, like, oh, moment of weakness, like, you're terminated. You can't curse under any circumstance consequence for an action. Even if it was Manhattan, they were having a really bad day or man, a guest was just being really rude to him. It's like, sorry, you literally can't do that.
And right now I feel like for. And Joe, this is, again, this is your field. This is something that I think you can speak to the best.
I think the mental health industry, while there are plenty of legitimate parts of it, there are plenty. There's a lot of great work that gets done by people like you.
I think it's created a lot of, call it caveats, a lot of blanket passes, as you put it, for behavior that is not right. And obviously that's not always going to result in a case like this. But again, I'm talking about day to day life. The way you treat people, the way you respect people. Again in church, you know, again, just literally interactions with people, poor behavior, unchristlike behavior can kind of get pushed under the rug, under the Guise of mental health, struggles under the guise of, you know, whatever it is and consequences for actions has been taken away.
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[00:20:26] Speaker A: This is a little bit later in what some we were going to discuss. I don't know if we can just bring it in now.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Go for it.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: We make, this is critical theory. We make everybody a victim. This is what I really hate about not everybody.
Sorry, you're right, not everybody. We make ourselves and the victim class, which is critical theory. There is a level of power, the power struggle of there's the victims and that's anybody that's put down, anybody put upon the LGBTQ movement, BLM movement, obviously was talking about that. And it's all based on critical theory, not critical race theory. That's a part of it. It's more than that. It's this power dynamic and power struggle between the oppressed and the oppressors.
Modern mental health.
I hate my profession in a lot of ways. I love it. I love working with people, I love people. But I hate the profession and what it's done, which is it's turned a lot of people into victims. And so the way that they look at it is they will over identify
[00:21:19] Speaker C: with trauma and not just the show perpetual victims, like it just never ends.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Like they're not to get out because some people are the victims. Genuinely they are victimized. They have been through a lot. I'm not discounting that in the least, but it's how we choose to reframe the discussion as to whether we are going to perpetually stay victims or whether we're going to be able to work out of it. And to me that's what you see here is, you know, this, this oppressed Terminology. You know what? She's basically, the system's against her type of thing. And it could be me too. And so it's almost a MeToo movement type thing where everybody's looking to figure out where they fit in this entire story and whatnot. And you see this with a lot of women.
They got stories postpartum, so they're trying to shoehorn in there and to fit into this oppressed class of like, man, I've been there too. And I struggle too. And it's like, I get that. I get that. And I'm not. I know women struggle. I know that men struggle with certain things too.
But what are we choosing to identify with? And I think mental health pushes a lot of people into being lifelong strugglers. This is why I'm also very against pharmaceuticals.
In extreme cases. Sure, maybe 5% of actual cases, which.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: That's a big angle.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Should we use pharmaceuticals? And that's a huge angle of this. She's on pharmaceuticals. They didn't work. Matter of fact, they made problems worse. You know what she was taking? I think it was Seroquel or something like that, where she took it, and it made the problem a lot worse. She was trying to fix insomnia. And it just adds on these problems. Well, the pharmaceutical companies, I don't want to go conspiracy theory here, you know, theorists here, but I don't think they have any desire to really heal you. I don't think the goal is to get you on and get you off quickly. Most people that are on them are on them for years, if not basically planning to be there for life.
Well, how many in the mental health field are very quick to diagnose? I don't diagnose for a reason. They're very quick to diagnose, and they're very quick to try to get you on something to stabilize you. Well, stabilization should take a matter of a month to maybe before you start taper off until we can get you in a better place. These people end up being on it for years. She was as well. Where she's on all these medications, she basically becomes a human test tube. We're just gonna try these different things. Let's throw this in there and see.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: That's what I was gonna say is it's, oh, well, let's try this one. Let' sLet's give you a bigger dose. Let's give you a lesser dose. Let's throw this one on there. Let's throw this. It's so trial and error with every individual person that comes in and I mean, and it's all based on the serotonin theory, which is debunked. I mean, like it's not.
It's all bad science. And this is just. All they do is just throw this at people. And that was a significant contributing factor. I mean, you think about how many mass murderers, how many cases like this have some of those pills involved. And we're not saying that everybody who's on that is gonna do that. We're just saying this gets dangerous. Bad things happen with these. And the doctors, the pharmaceutical profession are very haphazard with the way they just throw these things around. And that is a factor in this as well.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: We've had that take place where a close friend of ours, that by the grace of God, it did not work. But suicidal attempt and it was surrounding these, where, whoops, we crossed the medication and you know, man, bummer type of thing. Like we're playing with people's lives. And this is where the mental health field, it turns people into perpetual victims where they don't feel they can get out of it. They over identify with their traumas and their abuses and the things that they have been victimized in. They over identify and it becomes a sort of strength. This is the intersectionality of critical theory. It becomes a sort of strength to over identify with the things that make
[00:24:39] Speaker C: you weak, the more so any woman add to your thing, to your record, basically.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: So, you know, the, the, and I'm sorry but like the overweight community has some of that where it's the intersectionality. You don't know what it's like. There's obviously with race, there's certain communities along those lines with, with gender, there's a certain thing. And so it's like if you were trans and you know, maybe basically, how
[00:25:00] Speaker C: many minorities do you fall into?
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Correct. And so you end up getting to the top of the food chain because you have so many things working against you. And postpartum does fall somewhere on there when we over identify with that. And it becomes like, yeah, that's my story too. Like we're not looking to identify with all of our traumas. We're looking to process through those things and get to the other side. But this is what takes place in the mental health industry that's pushing us in a critical race theory, or in a critical theory world, rather.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: So, Joe, obviously this is not an interview where we're just asking you a bunch of questions, but I am curious your thought to the question that you asked us, which is take it from a church perspective. How do we show care towards those who, you know, maybe are the victims? Like you said, like, people who genuinely have gone through trauma and there's. There's just, man, a lot they have to deal with while also not giving a pass, while staying grounded, while not kind of excusing behavior. Like, do you have any. Just quick thoughts on. On kind of how those of us in the church can support those who, again, have gone through stuff like this.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: The reason it's important to know backgrounds for people is to be able to feel sympathy for them.
You have been through a lot. That's really, really difficult. Doesn't justify this. We can't do that. I work with porn addicts for a living. I can't justify their porn use and go, well, you're perfectly fine. Do I know why they do what they do? Yeah, you know, sexual trauma or emotional abuse or whatever it may be that leads them towards seeking something to regulate them. Porn that doesn't justify pornography that doesn't justify sexual acting out or any of the other things that I deal with. On the other hand, I can feel really bad for you and understand, man, you've come through a lot, but we've been saved from this. We are moving in a different direction. We are not going to do those things. And so in the church, the way we show up for people is understand their stories, connect with people, listen to them, and go, man, you have been through a significant amount. Because of that, we are called to more. We're called to get out of these things and to not just slip into old patterns, into bad behaviors. We have been saved from these things, and there's a beauty in that that allows us to reach a higher standard when we've come through it. So it starts with the sympathy and understanding where people are coming from.
But then we can call them out of that, really, by using the same thing. Like, you've been through a lot. Let's not stay there. Let's get out of this and get to a different place.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: That's something. Will had a good note in here about Saul, you know, the distressful spirit, the spirit overtaking him and him trying to kill David, that we don't go, oh, well. I mean, he had the spirit, so obviously Saul's okay.
[00:27:22] Speaker C: That could have been me.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: And so, I mean, you see it in a moment like that, like, yeah, that's not good. But it's. Again, it's not a pass. I think, though, and we've kind of hit around some of this.
Why the postpartum depression thing. Isn't as interesting to me as, yeah, it's real. It's all these things. As we said, it's not an excuse.
I think a lot of people are hiding behind that because what you're seeing them do is go, it was postpartum depression. It was the pharmaceuticals. It was the lack of a support system. Maybe her husband even did it. Maybe her husband abused her and caused her to do it. Maybe, like, just no accountability across the board. That's what it is. And so postpartum depression is just one of a. One of the vehicles of servings that they can choose from. Of whatever it is. It's. It's just not her fault the society failed or everybody failed every. Like.
But she.
[00:28:08] Speaker C: Which is once again, just so appalling to me. It's just so appalling to me. When you consider the details of the case. Like, this is again, like, just.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: Just. Just read what happened. Like, it is one of those things. As I was. I was talking to my wife a little bit about it. She's followed it somewhat. She's usually not following the news at all. But this is something that I guess caught her attention a little bit, and she was a little bit worried about us recording this episode. Like, man, I hope that you don't step into much controversy. And part of me was like, what's controversial about this as far as the actual facts of the case? Again, we're not having a postpartum debate. We're having a discussion about a woman who brutally murdered her three children. And so that's where, once again, as we've kind of hit around it plenty, I did put 1st Samuel 16 and chapter 18 on the. On the outline here as I was trying to comb through and think, like, man, are there any examples of, you know, stuff like this in the Bible of, like, insanity or people being out of their mind? Saul was the best one that came to mind. Yeah, he absolutely was still held accountable. That was not. That is not portrayed in First Samuel as a sympathetic story. As a. Oh, man, poor Saul. Poor guy. He's just really going through a lot. Like, no, he tried to kill the man after God's own heart. And so that's the once again challenging thing about this entire case, is that it's kind of gotten distorted from what it actually is.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: Well, when.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: No accountability.
Yeah, I was gonna go to the accountability thing, too, so go ahead.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: No, just. When you get to the no accountability. I'm sure you guys have seen. I've seen this. The Throwing the ice, you know, where these Women are like, screaming. I'm sure you've also seen the rage camps or whatever where, like, there's these retreats where they go and just rage out, scream and scream and scream. And it's just this attempt to kind of get out this internal rage that's
[00:29:54] Speaker B: been building the ice as well. That's throwing the ice.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Everyone's seen that women going through postpartum. I think the ones I've seen are postpartum. I don't know if there's outside that realm. They grab a bowl of ice and they go into their bathroom and they just chuck it and scream.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: And they set their phone camera up. To show themselves doing it.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: Yeah, to show themselves.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: I have not seen.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: And in this.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Oh, you haven't heard of horrible. It was like. Yeah, yeah, we understand, Lindsey. This is what we do to get through postpartum depression and things like that. And, yeah, it's raging out in the bathroom, throwing ice. So you don't go beat up your kids or something like that. It's like, this is not healthy. And the fact that you set your phone up to capture you doing this, like.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: That's more of what's premeditated. Yeah. I mean, it's like, this is nuts.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: This is.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Sorry, I took your point there, Joe.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: No, you're good. You're good. And. Well, did you guys see. I also was reading something. Have you heard about the Miletus suicides?
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: Have you ever heard about that? Yeah. Fascinating. Going back to, I think, was it 300 A.D. somewhere around there and not going to be popular, but a town of Greece, and unfortunately there was a popular young female who committed suicide. Very sad situation.
Got a ton of basically press. Like a lot of people that. That it kind of got her noticed. It's 21 pilots. Neon gravestones actually came to my mind of people that kind of do this for show, you know, the committing suicide. Anyway, they ended up having a.
A string. And people are sociologists and such. They look back and historians, and they're like, man, what really caused it? And what seems to have been the case is it was all these young females committing suicide, and it was them following after kind of the trend of the day. No matter how much. Yeah. No matter how much their families love them and pleaded with them and tried to help them and take care of them. It just continued to happen until somebody basically the king or the. The ruler of the. You know, of Miletus said the next one that does it is going to be. We're going to. Yeah. Basically hang it up and you know, without any clothes. And it's going to be a humiliation ritual, basically a humiliation thing.
And so glamorous. Yeah, it was no longer glamorous. He took the glamorized nature of it. I bring that up, it's a tough story, but I bring that up to say there's a glamorized nature to the raging out to all of these things that allows for them to not necessarily have to take. And I'm not just talking postpartum. When we see women that are really leaning into it, it is with the intention of like I'm allowed to get away with, with basically throwing a tantrum, even all the way to the point of killing my three kids, because I'm really struggling right now. And that's the danger of this.
[00:32:28] Speaker C: We can't live in a world where that's a sentence.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Right, right. And we have to bring back accountability, personal accountability. And where we cross this into the church is that we in the church, and especially us as the leaders of the church, you know, the guys at the church, the guys that are elders and preachers and people like that, we have to be leading the charge on taking accountability, being open with our own struggles to some degree, you know, in taking accountability wherever we can to say, man, we really messed this one up and we want to get this right. And if we are struggling, letting people know that, hey, everybody struggles, but we got to be doing something about that. So I think we need church leadership to set this stage for we take accountability for ourselves, for our actions, for our emotions. You may struggle with a tough day. It also goes to parenting. Parents need to teach their kids it's okay to be angry. You can't hit your sibling, you can't scream, you can't take a tantrum in the store, which is gentle parenting. It's all wrapped into one. We hate gentle parenting because you see the six year old melting down in the store.
[00:33:26] Speaker C: There are consequences for those actions should be correct.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: And it's like, it's not okay. It's not okay. But what it would take is to be able to set it aside and to deal with the problem at hand and to lead by example, saying, that's not what we do here. Creating a culture where that doesn't take place and where we don't reward these actions.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: See, you mentioned a bit earlier the critical theory, oppressed oppressor thing, that dynamic, the framework that everyone's operating on and churches, Christians, tons of them use this unknowingly, have just adopted it because it's what is Saturated the culture. This goes all the way back to O.J. simpson in the 90s.
He got off and people celebrated because, like, that's one for our team. And the same thing happened last year with Carmelo Anthony, with the guy he stabbed the young man. They were both high schoolers, I think, in Texas, and same thing, go fund me. All kinds of money flowing into the guy and his family, basically saying, you know, for our team, we're taking. You're standing for our team. And it's like, this is awful. But it's the. They can do no wrong. Because in those cases it was black versus white and they are the oppressed. And so they. They're owed this one. And you see this with women. They are oppressed, so they are owed this. And I saw a post about this today. It was talking about men and women, the dynamic in relationships, headship and submission, all that. And it was that, well, if he does his job, then she'll. No, no, no.
You have accountability too. You have a role, but you. Even when people go to exegete Ephesians 5, well, it says she has to submit. Well, if he does a good job loving her like Christ loves the church, then she'll submit. No, no, no. You have a role here. But critical theory, oppressed oppressor dynamics basically makes it to where all the responsibilities on the other person. And so when something like this happens, they go, what did the husband do? Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's. What are you doing? But that's how you get here.
[00:35:19] Speaker C: Well, another angle of that is you've got on here kind of the sympathetic villain trope. How much do we see that in our. Even our entertainment, you know, for Hollywood and movies, if they're not firing up a sequel or a remake of something, it's like a villain origin story. Basically. It's. It's the Joker movie with Joaquin Phoenix where it's like, right, so. Well, let's. Let me show you his background. It's obviously Maleficent is a very well known one. Or I think there was a crazy Cruella Deville movie. Like, this is something over the last, really 10 years or maybe 15 years, I would say that is becoming more popular. And that is being.
I heard a story the other day about somebody who's like, I don't really watch anything from the 21st century because I don't want the propaganda. It's like, I get it, understand, because like, that's the. That's the kind of subtle programming that they're feeding a lot of These young kids that like those type of movies is like, see the. The bad guy, like the Joker, who's one of the worst villains of all time. See, this is. This is. This explains why he is the way that he is. I know that's Hollywood, and that's not, you know, anything real. That what we're talking about, but it's. It's what we're talking about here. Played out on the entertainment stage, you know, again, on a screen for kids to kind of process. Oh, so maybe, man, I guess Joker was kind of justified for what he did. Or again, you know, whatever it is, that's a serious problem. And so that. That's one of those things that it's important for us to make sure once again, that we. And Joe, I think you do a great job of this in your therapy for. What I understand is, yeah, let's absolutely acknowledge what you went through as a child. Let's absolutely acknowledge your trauma. Let's talk about the emotional abuse that you suffered. Let's work through all those things. You still can't do X, Y, and Z. You still can't be a pornography addict. You still can't. You know, like, working. Working your way out of those things is still what absolutely has to happen, regardless of kind of the background of it. And so that's where, yeah, the perpetual victim thing is just so frustrating.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: I'm also gonna.
I'm gonna say this, and it's gonna be very mean.
I also blame a lot of pulpits for softening on sin, for not preaching. We talk about the. The hellfire and brimstone. Look, grace is very important. I think they overdid it in the hellfire and brimstone days where everybody thought they were stepping out of heaven every single time they, you know, did one bad thing.
I think there's a lot of problems that go along with hellfire and brimstone. But the squishiness that we've gotten to today, where we can give a pass to sin, that's why we can have an origin story in this country, you know, for a villain. And everybody's, oh, that's great. That's great. It's sympathy, you know, we can sympathize with them, we can empathize.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: We.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: We've been there ourselves. And. And who's to say we could be that? That's exactly.
[00:37:52] Speaker C: We're all just broken sinners with this case.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Correct. We're all just broken sinners. Those types of terminologies and things that we use that preachers use from the pulpit that you hear preached and proclaimed.
In my opinion, it normalizes sin. It's like, man, this is. We're talking about serving the almighty God that cannot look upon sin, that was willing to send his own son to the cross, nailed to a tree, coming down, leaving the glories of heaven because of the sin that we commit.
And we just, you know, flap these things and go out there and who cares? You know, who cares? We can have these. It goes to the same thing with the True Crime podcast and all of these other things that people get involved in and listen to and, and we just get fascinated by these stories. And I think we become so desensitized to sin, to problems that we are looking now to Will, to your point, we're looking more as to how can we over identify with the sin, not just the sinner, but with the sin itself. Because we read ourselves into all these situations and that's what you get with we're all broken sinners. Well, she's just like us. Like, no, she's not. She killed her three kids. I didn't make that decision, nor am I going to. Nor did my wife make that decision when she struggled to some degree. Like that just didn't happen because we made different decisions. But we can't have a conversation about sins and decisions because again, I think we've gone really soft and really squishy on all these things to the point that we say, well, who's to say? Who am I to judge? Who am I to say these things? All I know is that I've been there myself and therefore that must give a pass to these things. And our culture is inundated with this stuff and it's sickening.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: Hey folks, I wanted to tell you about our new Christian book combo. It's two books
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[email protected] well, you've seen the same thing with the pro life thing, when a lot of the pro life leaders, in fact, one of them tweeted her support for the lady. One of the big pro life account ladies on Twitter, you know, kind of came to. It was empathizing or whatever with Lindsey Clancy. But when people have suggested, hey, we should also prosecute, you know, not just abortion doctors, but women who go seeking abortion.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. We can't do, like, they're trying to have their kid killed. Okay? Like, we're separate. Yeah. We're separating them from the sin and the abortion doctor. He's the wicked one. We should send them to jail. But the person, the woman who pays him to do it, you know?
But the guy who hired the hitman. Yeah, but it's. Again, it goes back to this. Well, she couldn't possibly. She only does it because she's a victim. Like, no, no, There. There's agency here. We got a great comment. I want to go to something you talked about there, Joe, about people's obsession with these things and kind of looking into the darkness a little bit. But, Todd, we appreciate the comment. He said we. This is very much similar to what Joe was saying here. We're very much in agreement. He said we swung the pendulum too far. We went from never talk about your struggles, to be proud that you have struggles and use them to justify all your behavior. Mental health and mental health resources should lead people to the cross, not away from it. The answer has always been and will always be more of Jesus, not less. Many of these issues are contributed to the desensitization to violence, crime, and sin in our culture. Let's course correct proactively versus reactively. So appreciate the comment. It's kind of funny Joe didn't see that as it came in. As Joe was saying that, you're very much on the same page there. It is about the cross, and this is getting us away from that. But I mentioned I wanted to go this other direction with it.
There's that. Is it Nietzsche? Whoever said the quote about when you stare into the abyss, it starts to stare right back. Like you're looking at darkness all the time. And darkness, it just. Like there's this weird relationship that starts
[00:41:58] Speaker C: happening, becomes your friend.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you start being molded by it.
All of the women who are obsessing over this and watching frame by frame, case by case, a million tiktoks about this case and true crime podcasts have been the big thing for years. And there's the Candace Owens thing where every day you go to figure out what time traveler killed Charlie Kirk. Thing like, this is not good for anybody. This isn't healthy. This is not natural, this is not normal.
This is something that I think we need to talk about as part of this as well is.
I don't know, I guess the question I would ask you guys is what counsel would you give to someone who's kind of interested in these things? They're gonna say, no, it's fine, it's not.
Would you say, hey, stay, just back off from it entirely. What would you say to it?
[00:42:48] Speaker C: This is very. I'll go first as the non therapist.
Man, this one is a. Is a tough one because there's so many varying degrees to it. There are people who are.
I think there's always going to be a somewhat of a human fascination with stuff like this. And I think part of it is like, did this actually happen? Like, it feels like it's a fictional story, but it's not. And so that's. I mean, fictional stories are fascinating because it's a story that's made up and it's like, oh man, I can't. But these are real life things. And so I think there will always be a level of can you believe that that actually happened? Can you. I mean, you remember the. I mean, there's just a million different examples we could list of stuff like this that, that just absolutely captivate people's attention.
I think my counsel would be, man, if this is your main genre of interest, that that's kind of all, you know, whether it be books and podcasts and YouTube videos and that's kind of your thing.
I would, I would encourage you to probably back off of that some.
I'm not in the you got to completely abstain from it camp. I think there are again, whether it's, you know, a book here and there or things like that, you got to be real careful. I mean, there's a million and one crime shows, you know, true crime shows, criminal minds, other stuff like that that you can just eat up non stop again. Books, podcasts and things like that. And so, you know, you got Philippians 4, 8 on here.
You know, think on these things. You know, it lists not a lot of things that have to do with, you know, real big fascination on true crime are going to fall into that. And so, yeah, I would say for, for those of you, for people who are listening, who, again, that's their world and they are biggest kind of nerds about it.
I think stepping back from that would be wise in the same way that, you know, if that's, if.
If your entire personality consists of, you know, your Harry Potter obsession or something like that, let's back away from that one, too. And so, Joe, what thoughts do you have kind of on the. On the true crime? I mean, there are a lot of people who are just fascinated by it, and then there are a lot of people who, once again, it's their world, like, that's what they live for.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: I would agree that there are, you know, anything can become a vice at a time. I. I suppose sports podcasts can maybe get there as well, whatever it may be, you know, things maybe we listen to, like little.
[00:45:00] Speaker C: Little different. Light and darkness.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: Yeah, but I. Exactly. But it's different in the fact that. Because I could. I could hear people say, well, you know, you could be listening to too much of anything. Yeah, there's a difference in this one. There's a difference in setting your mind on purposely dark things. Our culture has a fascination with death. Look at Halloween.
We have a fascination with death. And I'm convinced it's because we have no appreciation for life. That's why abortion is a big deal. That's why, you know, like, we have no appreciation for life, for what it represents, for what it means, for the sanctity of life, the beauty of life. There are people, obviously us as Christians are fighting for that. Our culture is of death, decay, destruction. We love those things. We're drawn to it. The True crime on Netflix, those shows, I've watched those too. I'll be the first to admit, yes, I've seen a few of those as well.
They're very interesting people stories. I get that. That's why I'm a therapist, is I love people and knowing how people work, and so I can understand how people might get there. Those that are listening saying, I just like the psychology elements to these things.
I get it. But you have to consider the darkness that if you are inundated with these things, if you're listening to this all the time, what are you putting in your mind? Because you're right, Jack. I think you start. It's staring into the abyss, and I think it will start to stare back at some point. So what I would encourage for my advice is consider taking a couple weeks, a month off of those and just see if your perspective shifts. See if your emotions shift. Sleep shifts almost as a reset. And you know, what if you find perfectly fine. You know, I kind of miss those, and I enjoy those podcasts, but I don't really Notice that much of a difference. I'm not a happier person. Nothing like that. Then maybe you've got a good relationship with those podcasts and such, that content.
By and large, I would avoid them a decent amount. You know, and I would probably encourage people to the best of your ability. I'd look to avoid on a lot of those things just based off of Is this really what we're looking to fill our minds with? And look, I get it.
We're all watching movies and things like that that have death and things I don't want to be.
[00:46:58] Speaker C: You can copy and paste Philippians 4. 8 onto onto a lot of stuff, correct?
[00:47:03] Speaker A: I mean, you could use that to say pretty much don't watch anything. So I want to be not a hypocrite in how I say things. But there is something very dark about
[00:47:11] Speaker B: the true crime when it's all negative fixation, death. I mean, I don't know the thing that comes to mind for me and I had tweeted or posted about this somewhere. But first, Timothy 5, where Paul is talking about the list for widows and saying, don't put younger widows on the list. They need to get married. He says that at the same time they learn to be idle. So they go around from house to house, not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach. For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
This is that they're not going house to house discussing things that shouldn't be mentioned. They're going from reel to reel, from short, from TikTok to TikTok. You know, scrolling from page to page. That's what this is, is a gossip fixation. Being in other people's business, wanting to be up in the know and, you know, just plugged into the whole thing all the time.
It's not healthy. And as he says, the antidote to that is keep the house, get married, have kids, take care of them. Like, man, and I brought up the Candace Owens Charlie Kirk thing. Oh, man, they're tracking the Egyptian planes. Like, how many dishes are in your sink? Like, who cares? What does this have to do with your life? Go get the laundry out of the machine and fold it up. This is insanity. What is this doing for you to plug into this every day and be fixated on, oh, we're gonna get down to the bottom of the 337th degree of connection of who killed Charlie Kirk. Like, he Was a great guy. But this is insane. Like, this is going this far down the rabbit hole. And this woman's case is kind of the same thing of, like, you know, on the trial, the husband, he looked like he was kind of smirking. You know, I saw a video of the body language detector. You know, she's given the body language that he had in the trial.
[00:49:01] Speaker C: I called him wannabe Nancy Drews.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like, but this is. Again, there are so many better things you could do with your life, and we all could spend more time in Bible reading and prayer and all that. As you said, there's blanket criticisms, but this is this specific to women. The gossip they, like, getting dragged into and, like, being in the know and all those things. It's like, as I think Joe said, re evaluate.
[00:49:26] Speaker C: I would just say the inverse of that is men and politics, Men, news stories, or like, the just every little, you know, rabbit hole that they can go down. It is interesting kind of the way the gender dynamics break down there with that. Yeah, I would agree with that.
Guys, what else do we want to get into with the remaining few minutes that we have? I mean, we've covered a lot of what we've got on here. The victim portion of this is one that I have the least tolerance for. She's not a victim. The three children that were dead in the basement, Those are the victims. Those are the victims here. And again, the.
The way that. Whether it be through critical theory or, again, like, you know, we're on the same team type of thing, trying to cut, copy, and paste the. The exact same struggles that people have as a way to justify.
A lot of. This is just. What's so disturbing is the. Is the only word that I can come up with on some of this. Once again, I was talking to my wife. Like, what is controversial about it? I. I get that this woman had struggles, but. But, man, it's just. It's awful.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: So.
[00:50:31] Speaker C: Sorry, that was. That's not necessarily my closing thoughts, but that's kind of where my mind went with the victim narrative portion.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: No, it makes sense.
One that we didn't get to, that I wanted to mention is when these people are doing the sleuthing thing. Okay. Asking questions. Oh, it's just asking questions. Just. Okay. But you're impugning a lot of people. You're implicating a lot of people in these things, and you got to be careful with that. The ninth commandment is don't bear false witness.
And so when somebody comes to a case like this and goes you know what? A lot of husbands abuse their wives. And you know, who's to say that might be involved here? Like, you don't know this man from Adam. You don't know a single thing about their home life. And now you're basically implying she killed her kids because he yelled at her.
That's bearing false witness. That is a sin. But you've got too much time on your hands. And so you just go ahead and do it and just throw it out there because you can, because no one's holding you accountable for it. You're gonna have to hold yourself accountable. Okay? And I'm seeing this with all of these. There was a story about this true crime thing where they dug up the.
This story. It was a murder in Idaho or something like that. And the. The TikTok Sleuths got to work figuring it out and who it was, and this psychic lady, tarot card reader, whatever, told them all, oh, it was this professor at the University of Idaho, and they showed up at his house and all this. And no, it was just wrong. Like, he wasn't involved at all. Like, he was totally clear.
Wow, that's bearing false witness. And no, maybe not everyone does it on that big of a level, but if you're making comments on social media, you're posting things, sharing things of like, oh, what did he do? What was it? That's a sin. And this is the kind of sin that needs to be called out and reined in and said, you got to stop doing this. That's not a, it's a sin, so it's unhealthy, but B, it's unhealthy in a lot of ways for other people. You're dragging other people into this. This psychosis. It's awful stuff, and there's just so little accountability for it that.
I don't know, I think that something has to be said.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess I will get my closing thoughts, because we did. We lost Joe.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: Since we're live, I don't think he can hop back in, so.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: That's right.
I would just. Yeah. I mean, two quick things. The first one, as you said, accountability is so important for every. Really, every phase of life. Young children need to be held accountable for the things that they. For the things that they do. They need to be, you know, showing what accountability is. As we said earlier, like, yeah, you can get angry. You just can't hit your sister.
Things like that. And so that.
We've got to make sure that we don't nullify consequences.
You know, when behavior is committed in a certain way. As I've already said that. The only other thought that I'll share, just from a application to the church standpoint, is it's interesting how much this somewhat ties into last week's episode, talking about vulnerability and authenticity. And what was clear from a lot of this, this woman's life is, yes, she was dealing with a lot of stuff, and yes, she had people in her life, but, man, did she feel like there was nobody to go to. Essentially, that is something that I would just encourage everybody go back and listen to that episode last week about being vulnerable, being authentic. We don't want to be the perpetual victims, the always broken people, but, man, this is stuff that I would hope and pray our church families are equipped to handle. If a woman is really dealing with something as serious as postpartum depression, maybe even postpartum psychosis, as rare as it
[00:53:56] Speaker B: is,
[00:53:59] Speaker C: I would want to again, just reinforce, like, we have to make sure that our congregations culture or cultivate an atmosphere where there's one or two, you know, a couple group, groups of people that woman can feel comfortable going to and sharing some of these struggles, obviously, and her husband as well.
But yeah, it's a recipe for disaster when, you know, people, man or woman, going through any kind of struggle, looks around, it's like there is not really anybody for me to go to about this. That's when things can get really difficult. Wish Joe was here.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: He got.
[00:54:30] Speaker C: He could obviously speak a little bit better to that, but that's kind of. Yeah, that's my last thought is once again, as it goes to last week, be authentic, be vulnerable, willing to share your struggles and be somebody who is open to hearing how somebody is actually doing and not just accept expecting the I'm doing fine answer when you ask them how they're doing. So just kind of tie in last week.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: Yeah, go home and pray about it and things like that. That's not a great answer to when somebody's really struggling.
You know, we just had our newborn twins and the amount of support we've gotten from family first, but from neighbors and from the church family. It has just been incredible how many people ask and checking in on us, bringing a meal, things like that. That is the blessing of a church family. And I understand not every church family is like that. Try to be more like that, especially leaders set up churches to be that way.
And then on top of that, if you're not a leader, act that way toward others. But to those, maybe you're not a Christian, maybe you're coming across this church. Families are a really nice thing to have. It's not the only reason you convert. You convert because Jesus is Lord. But it is a really nice perk is that to have a support system. And so we should be that for each other as well. My closing thought, since that one was just hacking onto Will's closing thought mine is evaluate the world through the truth, not through this.
Well, were they a victim, a class, therefore they get a pass, therefore it's okay.
[00:55:51] Speaker C: No, turn that lens off.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: It's wrong if anybody does it. And so don't go looking for somebody else to blame. The first thing we say is, wow, it's really bad that a woman murdered her children.
There are a million other considerations. But if the if the first thing you're doing is going, how can I keep her from being accountable?
We're losing the plot here and that kind of stuff has to stop if we're going to be people who speak the truth. So very difficult, not fun thing to talk about. Lots of different angles. We didn't get to all the angles. I'm sure there are other thoughts people might have. We appreciate those who have tuned in on a late Wednesday night for the live. If you're not watching live, these are all up on the YouTube channel for focus Press. They go out on the podcast app. We have this show we do every single week. So be sure you're subscribed on YouTube on the podcast app and join us on our Patreon focuspress.org/ for the extra episode we do every week, answering listener questions and just extending the discussion, so be sure to check that out. And thanks again for tuning in. We'll talk to you guys on the next one.
Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's focuspress.org donate. Thanks again for listening.
