How You Can KNOW You're Saved

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Your co host will here I'm joined by Joe and Jack Wilke. After a little bit of a Thanksgiving hiatus. I hope everybody had a wonderful Thanksgiving week. Got to spend a lot of time with friends and family and hope you enjoyed episode 200. I know we certainly enjoyed the kind of free flowing episode, just conversation that ranged all the way from J.K. rowling, Harry Potter, you know, church hurt, trying to remember some of the other highlights, guys, all kind of stuff, holidays, even holiday traditions, talked about, all kind of stuff. But it went pretty long. And so we decided, you know, we decided, hey, let's, let's split that into two weeks. Let's give people two weeks to listen to that. And so yeah, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we did. But we are back on our regular schedule and Lord willing, we plan to be moving forward for the rest of the year. So thank you for listening. Thank you for your support. We are back with a standard, kind of a standard type episode as far as exploring a particular topic. And what we're talking about this week has a lot to do with a new Focus Press publication, specifically our very own Jack Wilkes book, you are Saved, a book on Christian assurance that has now been out. Joe, if you're watching on video, Joe's got it for you to see there. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been out now for a month or so, three weeks or so by the time this episode comes out. And so, yeah, we want to spend this episode talking about the idea of Christian assurance, talking about the idea of can you know that you are saved? What does the Bible obviously say about assurance? And really, what should a 21st century Christian's response be to that question of hey, do you know that you are saved? And so obviously Jack is going to be heavily featured in this episode, even more than usual because he just wrote a book on it and I'm sure his brain has been on this for months now and so he could probably do this podcast in his sleep. But we're really excited about it. I'm excited to which that's probably ironic too because we're recording late at night. Jack might end up doing it in his sleep. [00:02:07] Speaker B: That's right. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Joe, any introductory thoughts as we kind of get into this episode here? [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I genuinely like this book. I have not finished the book, Full Disclosure, which is terrible as we're looking to record on it. On the other hand, I've read a lot of it. Jack and I have Talked about these things for last years. He's been prepping. And that's what I said about church Reset is we just did all the. I did all the prep work and read it, quote unquote, before you ever wrote it. But no, it's. It is unbelievably quotable. That's one thing that really stood out for me. And as I've been reading through it, I underlined the book as I go and so many like zingers in there. One great one liner, as the kids say. [00:02:45] Speaker B: That's a bar. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go. Just so many of these things that are like, man, that. That preaches, as they say, and things that are going to stand out in your mind, you know, just little one, just looking through. When confusion about faith sets in, assurance is the first casualty. He doesn't justify and sanctify us because we're proven ourselves worthy. He makes. He's making us worthy by justifying and sanctifying us. You know, so many of these like, just again, great one liners, Grace, we're going to get to this one later. Grace is in practical terms how God feels about us. I love this because you can easily post this on social media. He does have a Facebook page dedicated to the book where he has posted a lot of these quotes, but I found it very quotable, very usable, very helpful. And from everything I've read so far, I think this is one that I plan to at least probably keep one or two on my shelf and be able to give them to people as necessary because it's that good. So good luck. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Last thing I'll say. And then Joe or Jack, if you have any jerky thoughts for the Joe, if you just want to kick him off, maybe with a question here. But I will say we've hit around this topic before on other episodes. This is a struggle for a good bit of Christians, as I'm sure Jack is going to speak to here in just a minute of kind of the. You know, if I died, I think I'm going to heaven, man. I sure really hope I'm going to heaven. You'll hear the people that say, I hope I've done enough. You know, stuff like that. And so we really hope this episode and of course Jack's book overall will be very timely for people. We live in a very. Just kind of uncertain age, I would say, uncertainty about the future, uncertainty about the economy, uncertainty about who knows, all kind of stuff. Right. Especially if we live. If you live in the United States and this is Something that I do believe firmly that God wants us to be certain of. And so we're going to explore that with this episode. Joe, you want to kick Jack off or Jack, did you have any thoughts as we kind of get going here? [00:04:30] Speaker C: No, just go wherever you guys want to take it. You know Amazon and Focus Press, it's at both places. So. [00:04:39] Speaker C: The one thing I'll add to that is some folks have talked about doing it as a church Bible study. If you want a discount for a group pack, Focus is the place to pick it up. Otherwise you'll get it a little bit quicker from Amazon. So if you're interested in grabbing a copy, Kindle, paperback, PDF, you just check them out. So that's. [00:04:54] Speaker A: Each chapter has great discussion questions at the end, so it's perfect for a Bible class. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Chapters, right? [00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah, 13. [00:05:01] Speaker C: Perfect quarter. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yep. So very, very well done on that front. Jack. To kick us off though, this goes to what Will was just talking about. I want you to expound a little more on assurance. But what got you thinking about writing this book? Why is this a passion point of yours? Why write this at all? [00:05:16] Speaker C: I run into a lot of people. I've been in ministry in the pulpit. So many people it didn't click with them. And I remember one time preaching on John 3:16 because I was like, man, everyone knows John 3:16. I never heard a sermon on John 3:16. And, and it's not the wonderfulness of me. I was just preaching what the verse teaches and there are a couple ladies crying like, man, I never realized God's love for me that much and eternal life and everything that's telling me right there. And it's like, man, the most known verse in the Bible just doesn't click with people because of all these barriers in the way. And so as I've gotten to speak on assurance more, there's a number of reasons here. So I mean, that's one of them is the obvious one, is the people don't have it. And that's kind of a. A lot of people don't have it. The churches of Christ especially have a lot of people who don't have assurance. And it's because our system is about getting it right. And so we think getting it right is what is required to go to heaven. And we know we're not getting it right all the way, so we're hoping we've got it right enough. And, and all of those kinds of things that. And somebody's going to hear that and go, oh, so we don't have to get it right. And that's not what I'm saying at all. It's important to try and be right with the scriptures. But there is that question, what if I'm wrong about something? What if I'm stumbling? What if those things happen? And so there is that lack of assurance. And so as I've had the chance to speak on this, various places, what I will do is I'll say. [00:06:45] Speaker C: Can you say, And I don't do a show of hands, but it's kind of internally checking your mind. Yes or no, can you say you're safe? So I'll ask the listener right now, if you're in the car or wherever you're listening to this, can you say, I'm saved? If. If the big heart attack hit right now while you're listening to this podcast, can you say, yep, I'm saved. I know where I'm going. And I've had a lot of Christians say, yeah, I'm not sure, I think, I hope, you know, the things Will was saying earlier. I hope I've done enough. Those kind of phrases that you hear. But even among the people who can say yes, the second question I'll ask is, can you say you're righteous? That one's hard, isn't it? I mean, like, even if, you know, you can say, yeah, I'm saved, I know where I'm going. Well, it feels weird to call myself righteous and for good reason, but when you understand these concepts, you can call yourself righteous. So that's the first side of why to do this is how many people I've run into who don't have assurance. There's a second side of it I want to get to in a minute, but let's. We'll park on the first one. If you guys had anything to add on that. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, what you're saying there. The second question specifically, I want to zero in on that about can you say that you're righteous? What that reminds me of is the whole saint sinner thing. The fact that, you know, we are very hesitant to call ourselves saints, even though the New Testament calls us saints, we're a whole lot quicker to call ourselves sinners. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:58] Speaker B: And I know we've discussed this before on the previous podcast, but I've always had a big problem with the idea that, you know, well, we're, you know, not even just the brokenness culture thing, like, we're all broken sinners, just even calling ourselves. I mean, there's hymns that we sing that, you know, kind of just call us all sinners. And so, Jack, I'm curious if you think maybe that contributes to it a little bit, is maybe zeroing on the second question again of like, we don't. It's hard for us to call ourselves righteous because we've spent so much time either being called sinners or being told that we're a sinner. Not really computing the fact that man, the definition of that word means one who essentially actively and constantly engages in sin. That should not be the definition of your. Of a New Testament Christian. And yet we group, we put ourselves under that umbrella. And so it makes sense though, that when you ask that question, can you call yourself righteous? Well, no, I don't think I can because I would consider myself a sinner. So just briefly, how much would you say that's contributed to people who struggle to answer that second question? [00:09:00] Speaker C: Yeah, and it's one of those where like, they got half the equation right. Sin is really bad. Sin corrupts greatly. Sin is insurmountable on our good works. And so when somebody gets that, it's good. But it's like, now we've got to teach them. The other half of it is that you can know that you have overcome sin through the blood of Christ. And so, you know, I said a minute ago that the churches of Christ have this unique problem, but we're not the only ones. I think it's worse here maybe. But the Calvinists, the reformed people, they're really big on the wretched sinner thing. And so they have that. And so this is one just across whatever you pick up a book at the Christian bookstore, you might get hammered over the head. We had our hellfire and brimstone episode the other day. A lot of people grew up with this, man. The, the hell's hellfire, the flames of hell are licking at your heels at any moment. Just keep running or else you're, you're, you know, gonna slide back. And I had somebody comment on, you know, somewhere along the way and in this process saying that they were, their grandma said, well, you skipped Wednesday night church, you're probably going to hell. Like one time you skipped Wednesday night church. And like, yeah, that's the, the one strike and you're out thing. I mean, there's a lot of people that had that kind of belief. And so as you're saying, the, the sinners, the can't do enough. The, the broken sinner, whatever angle it takes. That kind of, it's almost like we think that is our appeal to God for righteousness is be like, I know I'm Terrible. I know. Like, okay, but accept what he's trying to give you here. You have to. I have a line in the book about, like, it would have been ridiculous for the prodigal son to come back and be like, father, I'm not worthy to be your son anymore. Just let me serve. And the Father be like, no, no, no, we're fatted calf. We're having the party. Come on in. My son's alive. I'm so happy to see you. And for the prodigal to be like, but no, really, no, just let me serve. Okay, like, don't accept the father's embrace. Be like, no, no, no. Arm's length. Stay back. But that's what we're doing when we do this, and we don't realize it. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that was such a good point of the prodigal. You make a couple good points in that chapter, specifically about the prodigal. But in that chapter, you also talk about the overestimation and underestimation of sin. And I think the two pendulum swings to the legalism that can come out of this is we're all wretched sinners. And sometimes I think that's a swinging the pendulum away from the legalism of, well, hey, I'm great. I don't know about you, but I'm great. And it seems like it's a way to kind of put us all on equal footing. And so it's an attempt for grace, seemingly to kind of play it to the good side. I think there's some other problems, obviously, with it, as you guys are talking about, but I think it's an attempt to talk about grace, but expound a little more, if you can, on what you mean by overestimation and underestimation of sin itself. [00:11:33] Speaker C: Yeah. So overestimating sin is this again. I'll never be good enough. I just, you know, kind of there is no grace and that sin can't be overcome. It's like, yeah, it can't by you, but it can through Christ, which is the whole point of this entire system. It's why the Bible was written. It's why he came to earth, went to the cross, all those things. And yet when we Christians kind of wallow in that, oh, man, I've just done too much bad, or the people, oh, God would never forgive me. You'll hear people say that kind of thing, you know, like, I don't know if God can forgive me. You're overestimating sin. And when you're overestimating sin, you're Badly underestimating the cross. Like, you know, sorry, Jesus, your blood doesn't cover that one. Say that out loud. And again, nobody thinks these things I'm saying. Nobody is doing the prodigal at arm's length thing. I just said nobody's consciously doing all these things. But when you reduce their actions and their thoughts down to it, it's like, but that's what that implies, that the blood of Jesus is not good enough to cover your sins. You don't want to imply that. And when people see it, and I've seen that click in people's heads when I've said that of like, yeah, no, that, yeah, Jesus probably can cover that. And so that's that side of it, the underestimating sin is that I can do enough good if I do enough good to outweigh the bad. Like, you don't understand how bad sin is. You don't understand how one sin is enough to keep you out. And so, like, that's ridiculous to think you can overcome it through good works. So you mentioned. Joe, I'm gonna turn one around on you guys here for a second because this is really important as part of this. You mentioned legalism. I want you guys to give your working definitions of legalism. [00:13:10] Speaker B: That's really good. [00:13:11] Speaker C: And as you think about that, as you about to give your working definition, I've had a couple people say, well, what's wrong with legalism? Jesus said, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. Isn't legalism just obeying? Well, no, it's not. And so I think it's important that we establish what we're talking about with legalism. [00:13:25] Speaker B: I don't want to give like a two sentence type of thing off the top of my head. What I'll do is I'll kind of share, I think, what some of the principles in my head of legalism are. The first thing that comes to mind immediately is you. [00:13:42] Speaker B: You bind the technical details of something while completely missing the spirit of the, you know, command, for instance. I think that's, that's a huge part of what the Pharisees had a huge problem with. I mean, they, they, by all, you know, view of the law, they were technically doing a lot of things correctly. The spirit of it was completely missed. You know, even things all the way down to, you know, they not taking care of their father and their mother because they were giving it all to God type of thing and stuff like that. And so I think that's certainly a principle of it is, man, you'll get, you'll get the technical, you'll think that you're getting the technical details right of X, Y and Z. But man, you're completely missing the spirit of loving your brother, for instance, or something. The other principle or tenet maybe in my mind of legalism is you bind what doesn't need to to be bound. You overstep. And you're not just binding things without the, or the technicalities without the spirit of it. You're also going a step or two further and saying, hey, you absolutely cannot, you know, listen to a sermon on, you know, on Christmas week that has to do with baby Jesus or you're in sin, you are, you absolutely cannot, no offense, Joe, go trick or treating or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, so those would be the two things that immediately come to mind for me is just completely missing the spirit of it for the sake of getting the technical details right. And then also again, just, you know, binding where the Bible doesn't bind and placing laws where there might be a gray line but making it black and white when it's just not black and white. But Joe, I'm curious what, what you would say. [00:15:18] Speaker A: No, I mean, you took mine point number two, it's binding where the Bible doesn't bind. Binding what's not bound, what shouldn't be bound. Because, and I heard this in a Bible class recently, you know, the Pharisees problem was that they were just, they, you know, had everybody keep the law perfectly. Again, it kind of boiled down to they were just really strict on the law. And it's like that's not the point. That's not, that's not the problem. Jesus was fine with them keeping the law. It's that they were binding the Mishnah and binding things that were not intended to be bound. Binding what man has come up with rather than what God came up with. And that's where to your point where will. Where they missed the heart of it. They weren't paying attention to scripture as much as trying to get the letter of the law. And not even the letter of the law. The letter of the, the extras to the law is really the point. And that's also the, the hypocrisy that he hits them on of legalists is. Yeah, they're trying to keep something that they don't keep. They themselves don't keep it perfectly. They are missing the entire boat. They are, what is it, swallowing the camel, straining gnats type of thing. They miss the point of the law. Such as? Well, I technically Gave to God so I don't have to give to my parents. You missed the point. And that's what legalists do, is they want to strain the gnats and swallow the camel because they're binding where the Bible doesn't bind. And they are attempting to. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Basically get themselves closer to God by their own goodness. And that includes, well, if the law is great, let's add to it and that'll get me even closer to God. So I know that that's not in a one word sentence in Webster's dictionary here, but yeah, I'm with Will. I think he summed it up pretty well. But that would be my thoughts. [00:16:51] Speaker C: Yeah, and that's the problem to what I was saying. People were telling me, well, it's just obedience. No, it's not. It's adding on. [00:16:59] Speaker C: My brief way of putting it would be it's kind of give me the list Christianity. And so you can end up with minimalist legalism and maximalist legalism. And maximalist legalism is kind of the traditional. It's usually what people are talking about with legalism, which is what you guys are saying is binding all these extra things. Oh, well, you know, it's not just that you have to wash your hands, you can't pick the grains on the Sabbath. You know, those kind of things they try to get. Jesus, you can't heal a guy on the Sabbath. Where does it say that? Well, their traditions had added that. And so they had their list of things they had to do and they just kept making it longer and longer and longer to make themselves better. But you'll see people do the opposite and just keep a really short list. And it's like, well, if it's not on the list, I don't have to do it. And that's kind of the rich young ruler, right? Well, I kept the Ten Commandments. Oh, sell my stuff. No, no, not interested. [00:17:45] Speaker B: He's the perfect picture of the give me the list Christianity. [00:17:48] Speaker C: Yeah, he really is. And so it's the minimalist legalism there. And the other guys go to the maximalist legalism, which is just making a really long list. And so to get out of legalism. [00:17:59] Speaker C: And this is how we get assurance. Because the problem with that, when you've got a list, that list is totally arbitrary. How do you know if you've kept enough of the list to be saved? Right. And so if you've got a really short list, you can feel, well, I'm great, I'm doing this. Well, what if there's one more thing on the list. Or let's say you've put 500 things on the list like the Pharisees did, but it's that 501st thing. Like how can you ever be sure? How can you know? Well, there's not a list. It's about a heart. And yes, there's things we have to do, but if your heart's in the right place, you're going to do those things. And that's what God is looking for as the heart. And that's why you can be sure is because you're just saying, I'm trusting in him. I'm following, you know, it's faith rather than list keeping. [00:18:40] Speaker B: And this is where it gets so practical in the sense of how many things specifically, as I think of the perspective of a young person, 18, 19 years old, if all they have is the list, how many or what they think is the list, so to speak, how many things are they going to just think the Bible does not have an answer for? You know, like the Game of Thrones is always the example we use. I'll use a different one. The White Lotus was a big show that was really popular earlier this year. There is no Bible verse that says thou shalt not watch the White Lotus. Right? Like it's not there. Thou shalt not. Listen to Sabrina Carpenter. Thou shalt not. You know, I guess that those are just two entertainment concepts. Thou shalt not. You know, take any example like that that doesn't necessarily. Thou shalt not use AI for instance, stuff like that. If all you have, if your entire mindset is okay, what does the list say? There's a lot of things that young people and not just young older people are also going to come into, you know, come into. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Come to grips with. It's like the Bible doesn't have the list. That's where the heart comes in the good. I mean, thou shalt not wear a two piece bathing suit. That's not in scripture anywhere. Right. And so having to. [00:19:55] Speaker B: Change our perspective to, as you're speaking to Jack, the heart behind it and the good, better, best principles and the, well, what would God want me to do as opposed to, you know, pulling out our clipboard? Is it on the list? [00:20:06] Speaker A: No. [00:20:06] Speaker C: Okay, cool. [00:20:06] Speaker B: Then I guess I'm. And that's when you get into is it permissive or is it restrictive as far as the silence thing goes. [00:20:12] Speaker C: But well, and that's where you get to the opposite side is like, well then I better put it on the list. And so no, everybody's got to do the like, no, there's some wisdom principles here. And so that goes. I mentioned earlier I had kind of two major motivating factors in writing this. One was the. That there's so many people without assurance. The other is people need to get to meat and they don't even know how to drink milk yet. And so let's give them the milk they need. Let's give them a solid footing on this. Because so much of what we talk about on this podcast is trying to get people onto meat is wisdom is maturity in Christ. So you can think about those things where there's not a thou shalt. And it drives me crazy when people hear a sermon on baptism and they're like, oh, yeah, we got to the meat today. No, you didn't. You still don't even get baptism because you can't walk out here saying, I'm saved. And so what I want to read from Hebrews 5, because this is a big motivating factor for the writing. [00:21:08] Speaker C: He's talking about Jesus and his high priesthood and Melchizedek and all that he says concerning him. We have much to say, and it's hard to explain since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God. And you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature who, because of practice, have their senses trained to discern good and evil. That means you don't need a list. You need to use discernment. You can use discernment. But then the last part of it, going into chapter six, he says, therefore, leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and a faith toward God, of instruction about washings or baptisms, as some translations say, and laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. I'm trying to get. And most of those topics that are listed there are in this book, because I want people to have those down so we can go on to meet. [00:22:09] Speaker B: I was gonna say, because that's what's referred to as the elementary principles there. [00:22:12] Speaker C: Right? And so you've got people who are watching Christian content, you know, listening to podcasts, going to church three times a week, you know, four, whatever, every time the doors are open, Christians for 50 years and can't say I'm saved how it's no wonder we can't have these meaty conversations about, can you watch that TV show? Can you wear that thing that people don't like, have their heads around it? They don't have a foundation. And so it's like, let's give you a foundation so you know, you're a Christian. You don't need to hear about baptism every week to like get you back on track. You know, you're a Christian now. Let's talk about the other things. And so this book is almost as much about what it's about as what it's not about. Right? It's about getting you to a place where you're like, okay, I am saved. Therefore I don't have to have a panic when somebody says, hey, let's talk about sending your kids to public school. Like, well, if I don't, is it a sin? Is God gonna send me to hell? You're asking the wrong question. Like, no, of course not. That's not part of this equation at all. You're a Christian, you're saved. Now we're just trying to do better. And we run into that so many times that people don't have a grounding. [00:23:21] Speaker C: On the dark world of Ceres. Nevik never questioned what he believed because he didn't believe anything. But when a mysterious girl from Mars tells him about something called God, everything changes. Now as Nevec searches for answers, he's not just battling doubt, he's fighting to survive. Accepting the truth might cost him everything. Quickening series by Kevin McCutch is a gripping sci fi thriller that explores the existence of God and the plan of salvation. Perfect for teens and young adults and anyone who likes a good story and wants to learn how to teach others. Grab your copy of Quickening series that's spelled C E R E S on Amazon today. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Why do you think? Just to kind of. I want to keep you talking on this. [00:24:02] Speaker A: We talk a lot about the leaders. The average person, you know, the average person like in the pew or the average people in the church are the sheep. They're the ones that are looking to get fed. They're the ones that are selling milk. Yes. They can be doing study on their own and I think they should. On the other hand, this primarily, in my opinion, is a leader based issue. The leaders aren't leading the people to the meat. Right. They're not helping them get to the point because they're the ones in the pulpit continually preaching these things. They're the ones standing up in the Bible class and going over baptism or instruments for the umpteenth time. Why, why do you think that is that the leaders have let us down so much. And again, I'm not trying to disparage elders and teachers. Preachers, you know, we want, they're worthy of double honor, those who rule. Well, on the other hand, we have to be able to look at this and say we have a real crisis in leadership where they're not able to move past the milk. Why is that? [00:24:49] Speaker B: And will go forward just briefly, because I want Jackson most of the time on it. My, my contribution to this question, even though you didn't ask me, would be what's easier? Preaching on why we know we're, you know, why baptism is right and the Baptists are wrong. Or saying, hey, maybe this is why you shouldn't wear this bathing suit or what? Hey, let's talk about why we maybe shouldn't send our kids to public schools or stuff. Like, it's a whole lot easier and a whole lot less controversial to do the instruments in the baptism or even the women's roles thing, which is all important to the, you know, fundamental or to the elementary principles point. That's a whole lot easier than saying, all right, well, here's how it applies on your Thursday night when you're trying to figure out what movie you're going to go see. [00:25:25] Speaker A: But there's such a response. Responsibility, I guess is the point I'm getting at is I fully understand it. I think it's job security. It's a lot of things that we could get into. We've gotten into it on other podcasts. It's more about their shirking the God given responsibility to equip the people in their congregation. That's like this negligence, in my opinion. It's negligence. It's like if you kept a four year old on formula and a five year old and a six year old and a seven year old on formula, like, at what point do the kids get taken away from you? At what point has this become a serious issue that you are not feeding the people what you're supposed to be feeding them? You're not taking care of them in that way. Like it, it speaks to a bigger issue than just job security. Like it's negligence and an inability to understand the responsibility and the task at hand, I guess, is what I'm getting at. But Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:26:09] Speaker C: This helps me make the point I was trying to just make. It helps make it a little more Concise. [00:26:14] Speaker C: Always talking about we're right, they're wrong. Do you know what. What that reveals? Like, what, as the kids would say, what that's giving, like, the, the impression that's giving when you're always talking about insecurity. Guess what? I just wrote a book on security, right? Like, let's get secure so we don't have to keep doing the insecurity thing. We don't have to talk about why we're right and the Baptists are wrong all the time. We don't have to talk about, like you need. Because I think people take their assurance from that. That's where people's assurance is, is I'm right and they're wrong. Everybody else is wrong and we're right. Well, guess what? That leads to a lack of assurance because. But what if I'm wrong about one thing? What if, you know, I think I'm saved because I've gotten everything right, but what if I'm not? What if I don't everything right? Insecurity comes right back in. That nagging thing is in the back of your mind at all times. That's why so many people in the farther right legalistic churches of Christ have insecurity in their salvation. Because it's about being right and being. It's all 247 insecurity. Because of the way they're preaching that if you can give people the security, you don't have to keep giving it to them. Like, you can remind them from time to time. It's great to have reminders of the Gospel, but you don't have to just keep feeding them. Hey, you know, it's okay. You're saved because you're not a Baptist. Like, I hate that stuff. That's terrible. And it doesn't actually give the kind of security we should have. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So I want to spin us off into something in the sense of a verse, a kind of a passage in Scripture. Jack. And I'm not sure if you address it in your book or not. It is on my shelf currently. I just haven't started it yet. So please, please forgive me for that. But to me, I think one of the. Because this, this passage I'm about to read is one of the strongest verse or is one of the. The most often used passages, anecdotally speaking, that is used in a study with someone who is a Baptist, somebody who's denominational, somebody who maybe is off on baptism and whatnot. And it's Matthew 7, 21, 23. Not everyone who says to me, lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. But he who does the will of my Father in heaven, many will say to me in that day, lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name and done many wonders in your name? Then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. Again, very often used in studies to tell people, hey, just because you believe in God doesn't mean that you are, you know, that you are doing the will of the Father in heaven and therefore going to be in heaven. Hey, just because you, you know, would call yourself a Christian does not mean that you're going to be in heaven. And so speaking, you know, let's say I'm somebody who maybe struggles with assurance. This passage might be one for some people where they say, hey, I mean, Jesus is pretty clear. Like, it's more than just believing in God and calling him Lord. And so there's a. You can read that passage and come away very insecure about your salvation is, I guess, kind of where I'm getting. And there's context there that obviously kind of giving away kind of what the answer is there. But I, I'm curious if you kind of came across that. That was the first one that immediately came to mind to me. And obviously there's other scriptures, second Peter one about making your call and election. Sure, that would. And Hebrews you already went to. But when I was thinking in preparation for this episode, okay, where do people get other than kind of the maybe hellfire and brimstone sermons, like, where in scripture might they get this? And this is one that came to mind immediately. So I was curious if you had any thoughts on this Matthew 7 passage. [00:29:40] Speaker C: Yeah, and false assurance, I mean, it's a real thing and it's something the Scriptures warn us about. And so that's part of this. But that he didn't warn us of false assurance to take away our assurance. Like, well, my assurance might be wrong. He's just telling us what false assurance looks like. And so I'll just read some of what I had on responding to Matthew 7 in the book said in context, the Lord's words are aimed at our actions. One might do many religious deeds in Jesus name, but what about the fruits of our lives? That was Jesus's focus in the verses immediately preceding our section. So 7:15 to 20. So the point of this passage is actually the opposite of the one that many derive. It is possibly possible to be right on all the fine points of religion and yet remain unsaved. Because the heart hasn't been changed. I think that's the takeaway we need to have. There is. We look at that and be like, ah, well, instruments. Therefore, you know, they said many, you know, lord, Lord, like, that's not what he's saying. [00:30:37] Speaker C: And I'm not. Again, people are gonna hear that and go, oh, so it's. We don't have to worship the right way. And didn't. Not what I said. What I'm saying is what this passage is talking about is the heart of those who do worship the right way do have their doctrine right. Do think that they can say, well, Lord, Lord, I was on your side. And he's gonna say, no, you really weren't. Because of. Look at the fruit of your life. And so, man. And I'm not trying to be mean. Every Church of Christ person has met a person like that who doctrinally unassailable, biggest jerk you ever met in your life. Backstabbing Christians, slandering Christians. People like that arrogant Christian. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, that's who he's talking to. And it's those people that will turn that verse around and say, well, that's about the Presbyterians. No, no, he's talking, you know, it's the. To quote a Presbyterian, the Paul Washer. Why are you clapping? He's talking about you. And so. And you know, he could be talking about any of us. I'm not, like, we're not above the warning of that verse, any of us, that our heart's not in the right place. That verse can apply to us. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Well, I've always taken it as, that's them turning around, going, whoa, whoa, hey, I did the right things. You know, it's the works. It's the guy who is relying on his works to get him there. And the way we turn it in the church so often, the way we use it is the guy didn't have the right works. He wasn't doing the right things. It's like, no, it's the guy who's relying on his works when the relationship wasn't present. You don't care about me. I never knew you. There's no relationship here. You just think because you did some great things and cast out some demons that you're good to go. That's us. Like, I'm sorry to say, but that speaks to the modern Church of Christ or in a lot of ways, of, whoa, whoa. I've got the doctrine right, and I've got this right, And I did all these great things and I served at the, you know, I served the ministries in the church and I showed up every Sunday and every Wednesday. Right. I didn't, like Grandma said, gotta be there every Wednesday. I did all these things. It's like I never knew you and I never knew you, to me is the linchpin of that, of zero relationship. To your point. Zero relationship. I didn't know you because you didn't know me. It's not him saying, yeah, you know, I saw those things and I just don't care and kind of turned a blind eye. It's like, you never pursued me as a, you know, as your Lord. [00:32:38] Speaker C: Sorry. As we're talking about fruits here, he says you'll know them by their fruits is the verse directly in front of that passage. Consider the fruits of people whose preaching for decades has little old ladies on their deathbeds going, I hope I've done enough. That's pretty bad fruit. And I'm not talking about the little old lady. I'm talking about the people who taught her that and put those ideas in her head that you have to do, you know, you have to earn your salvation. That's bad. And so, yeah, this is the kind of thing we're talking about. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The, the analogy that I always think of when it, when it comes to this is specifically relating to the works that you do. Because obviously James, for instance, makes it very clear, you know, you've got to have works, you know, that kind of evidence, evidence of your faith. I was thinking back to what you started with Jack, about the kind of the hellfire flames nipping at your heels, and you got to constantly run from it. And the analogy that I always think of is, man, if in a marriage, if you are bringing your wife flowers and you are, you know, cleaning the house for her, and you are, you know, taking her on dates, and your only motivation for that is, please don't leave me. Oh, please don't divorce me. You know, please just, you know, stay with me, please. I just, you know, you know, know, begging her to stay. Number one, your marriage is not going to be healthy. Number two, you're never going to know an end to that. There's never, like, you're going to always be doing that as opposed to the person that does those things out of just a love for their spouse. I, I, you know, I love you. I really appreciate you. Let's go out to dinner. Or. I brought you, I brought you home, you know, whatever it is, I cleaned the kitchen, whatever it is. Right. I'm sure there's, you Know different things for different marriages. That's the motivation out of love as opposed to out of fear. And that's where I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from. Especially again, the running away from hell thing of, you know, I got to do enough work so that God doesn't strike me dead type of thing. No, you do the works because, you know, you give money to the church and you look for ways to serve people, and you do all those things because of the love that God has already shown you. You already being saved. That should motivate you more, and that should be a whole lot stronger for motiv. Stronger for motivation. Again, to go back to the marriage example, that's a. That's not a very strong motivation just again, to maybe pray that your wife doesn't leave you. So go take her out to dinner. No, the. The stronger and healthier motivation is I love my wife dearly. Let's go. You know, got to dinner. And so running away. It's. Joe's running, running to and not away from thing. Of course you couldn't. [00:35:06] Speaker A: I'm glad I get to coin that. I know that's not. That's not exactly the first time that's been said in. In history, but, you know, say it. [00:35:14] Speaker C: Enough times, it becomes yours. There you go. [00:35:16] Speaker B: Exactly. But no, that's. That's where my thoughts went when you. About 20 minutes ago, when you're talking about the hell nipping at your heels thing. Yeah, that's. That's. I think that's a motivation for a lot of people. [00:35:26] Speaker C: It's a great point because one of the things I talk about in the book is a lot of this stuff is overreaction to false doctrines. And yes, there's easy believism, there's cheap grace. There's just say this prayer, and that's all you ever got to do. And you're. You're going to heaven. And so we try to overcorrect that or faith alone. And I'm sorry, man. In a whole lot of church, Christ people's heads. And I know it because it's in my own head when I hear faith, I immediately go, yeah, yeah, but you got to do something. Yeah, but you still got to obey. Yeah, yeah. And I even make this point. I say it directly in the book. I say, you're probably looking at the table of contents right now going, are we ever going to get to obedience and works? Hold on. Let's talk about faith and grace first, okay? Like, we get there. [00:36:09] Speaker A: I promise. [00:36:10] Speaker C: Promise. We get there. But you have to establish what faith is. You have to establish what grace is and then works. We've had the cart before the horse analogy. I use it in the book. But because we're so scared of the misuse, we don't ever get the proper use of the term faith and grace. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Well, you have a line in there. Grace is in practical terms how God feels about us. I wanted to have you expound on that a little bit more. What do you mean by how God feels about us? Because that is a. As you said, we got to be able to define faith and grace. So I think that's a great definition of how God feels about it. What do you mean by that? [00:36:43] Speaker C: Yeah, you'll hear sometimes people say it means favor and it generally does. You know, you have, if you have a good relationship with your parents, you have their favor. They love you, they want to take care of you, they want to see you succeed, those kinds of things. That's God. That's his view towards us. And so seeing us succeed takes coming to earth and dying for us. So he did that. That's his grace that took Jesus to the cross and rose him from the grave and gives us the hope of eternal life and all of those things. It's all grace. The church, that's God's grace. The Bible, that's a sign of God's grace. These are all manifestations of that. God loves us and cares about us because too many people have the God trying to strike them down view, right? He's up there with lightning bolts and one strike and you're out. A lot of other people have the gods indifferent toward me. If I make it, great. If I don't, I don't, you know. No, he really, really, really wants you to make cost him everything for you to get there. Why on earth do you think he's indifferent? Why do you think he's just kind of this dispassionate? Oh, well, if they do, they do. And if they don't, not too bad. Wrong. What you've been shown in his grace shows how badly he wants you to succeed. [00:37:53] Speaker A: You use a great illustration in there about going to the store and getting a BB gun, right? Saving up for it, saving your 50 bucks, getting there. And then there's tax and the BB's comes to 57. And dad stepped in and helped with the extra seven bucks or whatever. And that's not how grace works. We treat it as such. But you make a great line about grace is the concept of a father who is constantly giving good gifts, who's looking to bless the kid. It is more of, as you said, the favor and the disposition. And I thought that was a great point is it's not a one time like, okay, I made up the difference. You made 50 bucks and I made up the difference. Or even, Even I gave seven and you made up the $50 difference. That's not it either. And that's how we treat it is I got to be really good. God will kind of meet me either halfway or he'll cover where I'm not good. And so this disposition to me changes it less from a one time he showed me grace here or I really need grace to cover the last 15% of the way and more of a no, we're in his favor. He loves giving good gifts. [00:38:50] Speaker C: I wish I had thought of this. As you're saying this, it's putting the idea in my head. I wish I had thought of this before I wrote it. It's favor, not doing us a favor. Right? Like what, a bar one liner? [00:38:59] Speaker A: What I tell you? What I tell you? [00:39:01] Speaker C: I should have just sat down and wrote with you guys. No, but because the, the, you know that illustration of dad chipping in a few extra bucks, People think, man, if I do my very best and I'm gonna sin a little bit, but God will chip in the rest. [00:39:14] Speaker B: It's kind of like, I got you this time, but be better next time. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:17] Speaker C: And yeah, if you don't bring enough, then he's not gonna chip in. Right. He's gonna say, ah, too much. And that's where people do. I hope I've done enough. I hope I've cleared the threshold for grace to kick in. He's not doing you a favor. And when, you know, it's Christmas season, we're all buying gifts for our kids right now. I'm not doing them a favor. This is not a one time thing. It's. I want to see my kids light up, faces light up every Christmas morning every year. So I do it every year. God, every morning wants to hear your prayers. God every morning wants to help you. God, every person he desires, you know, he wants everybody to be saved. That's God's favor and grace and his love and all of those things toward us. And so again, so many people don't have that view of God. And so this is a thing you had kind of noted to talk about the glory that it robs from Jesus when people don't have assurance. And I'm not getting onto the people that don't have assurance. I'M getting onto the people who haven't taught them to have assurance. It really kind of starts to hurt your feelings for God that he went to all this effort that, I mean, took on human flesh, lived in poverty, got beaten, got nailed to a cross. You know, Jesus. Everything that Jesus did for us, for people to think, well, he doesn't really like me. He's just given me a chance, you know, like, he's. He's kind of over there. [00:40:34] Speaker B: I'm gonna. [00:40:35] Speaker C: Okay, I'm sorry, God, like, all of that was so that you could be with him, like, because he loves you that much, and that's how deep his love is. That's. That's unbelievable. And how many people have been given the impression that God is either mad at them or indifferent toward them? Again, you get mad on God's behalf. [00:40:56] Speaker C: Hey, folks, we've told you before about the A Closer Walk with the devotional series that Joe and I have been putting together. Each volume contains 90 devotionals, and now we're excited to announce the fourth volume has been released. And so this will get you through essentially a year's worth of devotionals, 360 devotionals if you buy the four pack, available at Focus Press. They just start in Genesis 1 with volume one, and keep working through the text. Volume four goes all the way up to David's sin with Bathsheba. And so we're just gonna keep those coming. Keep working through the Bible's text. And if you're looking for a devotional for your new year, be sure to check out A Closer Walk with Thee, volumes one through four. [00:41:34] Speaker A: But let me clarify real fast, because some people will immediately jump to, okay, that's to everyone, but not individually to me. And I think this is. I think it's Michael Schenk and Muscle and Shovel says there's no such thing as, like, a personal relationship with God. So some people really struggle with this of, Okay, I know. Yes, he wishes were done to perish. Like, he saved everyone. Right. The whole earth type of thing. He offers it. What about the individual? Like, is he really happy to see me? What would you say to people who struggle with that individual piece? Not the. Everyone overall are overarching. Yes, he's a good father to all his kids, but, like, no to you individually. [00:42:10] Speaker B: Just briefly. I'll give. I'll give kind of my answer again. Joe, you did not ask me, but give Jeff voice here for just a second. I. Man, every time this question comes up, like, you know, is the phrase personal relationship with God in the Bible? Not Necessarily read the Psalms, man. Read David, like, read the, the, the prayers that he was pouring out to. It certainly seemed like he had a personal relationship with God. The things that he is, praising him for the things he is, you know, on his knees begging God for the things that he is. Pleading, pleading with God for the things that, like, it was a very, you know, personal one on one relationship type of thing there. And so, you know, well, that's Old Testament, I think that's incredibly powerful. Obviously, pre Jesus, that you have this guy, man after God's own heart, that had this relationship with God. And Joe, I think you're, you're onto something. I'm curious to hear what Jack has to say about this, but kind of the. I do think people struggle to have a relationship with someone that doesn't audibly talk back to them. Somebody that, you know, they can't really see with their eyes. And so it becomes very robotic. Almost like, I'll say, I'll say my prayers at meals. I maybe will say my prayer before I go to sleep. I'll read my Bible. But it's, it's, there's. Yeah, it doesn't feel like a relationship there. But again, I, I go back and read the Psalms. It's like, man, there was, there was emotion attached to a lot of this. But, sorry, cut in front of Jack there. What are your thoughts, Jack? [00:43:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm gonna. Some people are gonna get this. Younger folks aren't. The Seinfeld thing, the soup Nazi. Joey, I think you've seen that one where you have to come in and order exactly the right way. And if you say the right words, you don't make eye contact. You give them your money, you stay in line, you do everything just right. You get your soup. If you don't do that, no soup for you. That's kind of, you know, the famous line that really is the way people are talking about this relationship with God. Just do it. [00:43:54] Speaker A: Just. [00:43:54] Speaker C: Just do the right things. Do the stuff. You'll get. You'll get what he promised you, you'll get what he offers. But, you know, like, no, not at all. And so you're right, Will, about the Psalms. But the other part of it, and this is part of the book as well, there's a chapter on this. This is where I more and more all the time get convicted, that what is taught about the Holy Spirit in a number of churches of Christ is pulpit malpractice. It's got to go, I think generationally, it's waning. It has to stop. It is robbing God of. Because when you look at, okay, the personal relationship with God, all of that, John 14 and 15, Jesus saying, you know, you biden me, I'll abide in you. The vine, the branches, all those things, we're all cool with that. That is sandwiched by the discussion of the Holy Spirit, which is how he abides with us. Right? That's how he abides in us. He told them that, I'm going to send the helper to be with you, and I'm not going to abandon you. I'm going to be with you through the helper that I'm going to send, and he's going to come for you. He's going to guide you in the truth, all the things the Holy Spirit was going to do. And then he goes into the vine and the branches, and you abide in me and I'll abide in you, and the love of the Father and all those great things he talks about. And we're okay with that one. But we cut the line at the start of chapter 15. Everything before that wasn't about us. It's the same thing. Okay. And so if you want to talk about the personal relationship with God, he manifests that by giving us the Spirit. And so where people deny that or people don't understand that, that's where you don't grasp this really important concept. Yeah, that's a great point. [00:45:21] Speaker A: That's a great answer. [00:45:22] Speaker B: I've got a question. It's going to spin us in a bit of a different direction. So, Joe, if you, if you have anything else kind of on this. So here's my question. Jack, we've been talking a lot about, you know, aimed towards the people who, man, have just kind of been misguided. On the assurance thing. [00:45:38] Speaker B: You used a phrase earlier that I want to dig into a little bit, false assurance. I would love for you to kind of maybe expound on that a little bit more of like, obviously, you know, as far as, like the definition of it, it's somebody who's falsely assured. Right, we know what that means. But like, in Christian and you know, the salvation concept, what, what does that look like? I guess might be the way that I would ask that. Like, what does somebody who's falsely assured. [00:46:03] Speaker C: What would that look like? [00:46:04] Speaker B: How do you, how do you know? Like, how does one know? And obviously the only one who fully knows is God. I understand that, but like, I don't know. What, what, what does that look like? As opposed to the person who is not falsely assured? I guess I guess would be my question. [00:46:17] Speaker C: That's interesting, because another one of the ones you guys peaked at the list but you had was the hardest chapters to write. And this is the first book I've written out of order. I started with the chapters on why we don't have assurance, where false assurance comes from, that kind of thing, because that was the most important. I can write a chapter on baptism in my sleep. I can write a chapter on faith and grace. That's pretty easy. But really getting to that answer of, okay, when has your sin gone too far and you're not actually saved? Or when are you wrong about enough things? I mean, it's very hard to draw the line doctrinally about this person saved. This person's not. But everyone agrees there's a line. Other than universalists, everybody believes there's a point at which you're not saved anymore with the wrong beliefs. And so how do you have those things? And so with those. [00:47:07] Speaker C: The doctrinal one is very much about. I fully believe he says, whoever asks will be given to you. Ezekiel, fine, knock will be open to you. You might be wrong about something. You, the listener. I might be wrong about something. And if it's something that is going to keep me out of eternal life. And again, the grace of a father who wants me to have eternal life. And this is something I pray. And I tell you in the book to pray this, pray open my eyes to it. Lord, if there's something I need to change, if there's a practice I'm doing that's going to keep me from being saved, that that is separating me from you, show it to me in the Scriptures. Send me someone's teaching on it. Help me connect me with the right person to lead me out of that, because I want that. You're seeking him. He rewards those who diligently seek him. Believe that. And somebody will say, well, what if they don't change their mind? What if somebody prays that and they're doing the wrong thing? That's up to God. If the person's genuinely seeking, they're going to get to where God needs them to be. I fully believe that. And, you know, parsing out the details of, well, they still believe this, they still believe that. [00:48:11] Speaker C: That can go a million different directions. As far as the sin one, the false assurance, there's very much a difficult question of how much is too much. The chapter, of course, obviously, is going to flesh it out better than I can here. If the fight's still going, that's a really good sign. If you've just given into the sin, that's a really bad sign. And so. [00:48:34] Speaker C: That one. But then I ended up at the end writing one more chapter that I hadn't originally put in the outline for the book. But I came back around and dropped one and put this in. And it was the Matthew 7, 21:23 thing about the false assurance of Christians who think, all right, well, the pharisee of Luke 18, right, I thank you, Lord, that I'm not like this man. I tithe, I do this, I do that, Lord, I go to a church of Christ. I worship by with acapella. I have a male preacher. I go to the right conference every year. I, you know, have read my book from such and such, you know, like, therefore, I, you know, I thank you, Lord, that I'm not like anybody else. And then you go to church and treat people like dirt. You run the preacher out on a rail because you don't like him. You, you know, like those kinds of things. And boy, just patting ourselves on the back, boy, I'm so glad I'm right. Like, you need to be scared. There's a real big false assurance there. And so there's a chapter in there on, you can be right about everything and be hellbound if your heart's not in the right place, if you are. I mean, disunity is one of the biggest issues in the New Testament. That's way more disqualifying to me than, you know, some of these minor doctrinal squabbles that people really get into over this. That and the other thing like, okay, but if you're treating people like dirt, you got bigger fish to fry. And so there's. I say. That's a long answer to say. There's different ways you can get false assurance. And it's really important to look them in the face to avoid the false assurance. But you can do that and you can say, you know what? I am seeking him, and I'm going to hang on to the assurance I have and believe that it's not false. [00:50:12] Speaker A: So here's the problem that I might have with that. I don't have any problem with the belief of that. Where we might run into problems, though, is okay, if the person is asking, am I saved and am I in a right state with God? Am I doing the right things? You know, am I. Am I, you know, giving any lingering room to sin in my life? They're probably on the right track because they're asking the right questions. They're not on this false Assurance, because they're not assured. Right. They're trying it. They're kind of wondering. The people that are false, falsely assured, the people you speak about, usually they're the ones that have no heart for that. And they're not asking any of those questions. How do you help somebody like that? I mean, what do you do to bring them around? Is this a Matthew or. I mean, is this a. Yeah, either Matthew 18 or a First Corinthians 5 thing. What's the steps there? [00:50:58] Speaker C: Well, it's hard. You might do those things and they. It's just not going to click with them. Right. It's going to go over their head. They're just not. Because they're not seeking. [00:51:05] Speaker B: And it's also a whole lot harder to do the, you know, Matthew 18 thing with heart issues, as opposed to somebody cheating on their spouse or living with their girlfriend. [00:51:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And. But you think about how much of Paul's letters was about Christian disunity of division and how much he highlights that specific sin. And so, yeah, that's one that if people can be fully convinced in their own minds and fully happy with who they are doctrinally and all those things and be acting that way. [00:51:41] Speaker C: You can't force somebody to see it. You know, you can pray that the Lord works on their heart. You pray that he opens their eyes, whatever the case may be. But that is a hard thing. You can't force someone to see it. And again, seeing somebody's blind spots should be a cautionary tale to us, but it shouldn't shake our assurance to where we're like, oh, well, then none of us can know. They think they are and they're not. And so therefore nobody can know. You have to trust the promises of ask, seek, and knock and pray, like David did in Psalm, I think Psalm 139, that man, if there's any in me, any hidden sin, any way that's wrong, reveal it to me. God will do that to you. He will. When you don't have a heart to ask that, that's a bad thing. So, yeah, having that kind of prayer in your rotation is a really healthy thing. [00:52:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:26] Speaker A: You got another. [00:52:26] Speaker B: Go ahead, Joe. [00:52:27] Speaker A: No, no, go for it. [00:52:28] Speaker C: Go for it. [00:52:29] Speaker B: I think about the sinning willfully, you know, after you've received the knowledge of the truth no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. That's obviously in Hebrews. And I think about the first John passage. It's the first John passage that I'll pull up real fast. It talks about that you can know that you're saved. Let me just pull it up. Sorry, I should have had it pulled up. Yeah. First John 5:13. These things I've written. Do you believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life, but then it goes on to talk about that sin that leads to death versus the sin that doesn't lead to death? And I find that fascinating that it's in that same section. And yeah, of course, I've always kind of held, I think you guys do as well, that, that's, that's the unrepentant of sin. That's the, the one that, you know, you shouldn't be doing. You're just doing it anyway. Kind of a rebellious heart type of thing. And so, yeah, I. It's difficult to, obviously to judge the heart of people, to judge the heart of, you know, are they actively rebelling against God? Are they, are they ignorant? Like, how much does that play into it? Ignorance is not an excuse. Something that I've always heard and I don't necessarily believe that it is yet. Yeah, so there's, there's a lot there. Joe. I had one more question that I wanted to eventually get to, but Joe, looked like you had, do we have. [00:53:42] Speaker A: The right to judge someone's heart or is that reserved for elderships? Is that reserved for a preacher? Is that reserved for somebody to be able to say, this person is clearly not growing and they're the coldest person I've ever, you know, I've ever run across. Like, who is designated to call that out or to judge that and say, hey, this is not okay. We'll know them by their fruits. Right? I'm looking at the fruits going, saying, great. Is that, does every Christian get that right or do we reserve that to the leaders of a church? [00:54:08] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I mean, I think mostly the leaders of the church and obviously this is assuming they are doing actions to confirm that kind of thing. Sure, sure. So the leaders of the church can confront the action like, hey, you screamed at that person. You can't do that. You know, you did this, that or the other thing and you stole from that guy, whatever it may be. And you know, because one of the things I had in there, false assurance was hard heartedness, is when you are confronted with your sin, if you're like, yeah, nope, I'm fine. This is how I am. That's not good. [00:54:35] Speaker B: No contrition problem. [00:54:37] Speaker C: And so, yeah, and so, yeah, I think church leadership has the right to call that out. Just briefly, while you're in First John, One of the big things that messes up assurance is misunderstanding. Walking in the light. Walking in the light does not mean being perfect. That's what everyone takes it as well. As long as you're not sinning. He literally says in the next verse, you're gonna sin. And if you say you're not, you're lying. [00:54:54] Speaker B: First John 1, verse 7. [00:54:56] Speaker C: Yeah, so, yeah, the whole second one John 1, 7, 10. So you got to confess your sins and he's going to forgive you. And we got the fellowship with each other and all those things that happen when we confess our sins, that's what walking in the light means, is living an open book life. You're like, you know what? I want to do the right thing, so I'm going to own it when I do the wrong thing and I'm going to confess things to God when I do them the wrong. If I have to confess them to somebody else, I'm going to do them. I'm going to open these things up so that I can be right with God. It's when you're denying it, when you're turning your head the other way, when you're covering it up, when you're continuing on in it and hiding it, whatever it may be. That's not walking in the light where people think, well, as long as I'm not sinning, then I'm walking in the light and I'm. That's not what that's saying at all. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's good. All right. Before we get out of here, gotta ask about rebaptism. I think that's. I know you have a chapter or at least a section on that in your book, and I know that's something that a lot of people are gonna ask. What are your thoughts on it? A lot of people in the church get rebaptized, whether it be, I was baptized, age, you know, 11, and didn't know what I was doing, so therefore, I don't know if I'm saved. I've shared the story before that is just, just still atrocious every time I think about it. Young boy who baptized at age 13, I think, and went to a. Essentially a camp workshop type of thing about baptism where training people how to. How to baptize. And he. [00:56:25] Speaker B: He was in the. Kind of off to the side after it was over, like sobbing because he had. He had. Based on the workshop that had just been done, he didn't know if the person who baptized him said the words for the remission of your sins. You know, I baptized him the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He couldn't remember. And this young boy was surrounded by, you know, several older men that were there, of course, and instead of doing what they should have done, which is said, listen, did you get baptized for the remission of your sins? Okay, great. You're good. They pulled up the Facebook livestream of his baptism that had happened several months ago to verify that it had been said, and essentially. Oh, okay. He did. And he had. He had said it was okay, cool, good. You know. You're good. It's like they were 100% about to re baptize him right then and there. If they had watched the live stream. [00:57:18] Speaker C: Wonder why people have a shirt. [00:57:20] Speaker B: I'll never forget that. That I. I was standing kind of off to the side because there were older men there, and I didn't feel like it was my place to come in and say, hey, guys, are y'. [00:57:27] Speaker C: All. [00:57:27] Speaker B: Have y' all lost your mind? Which is what I wanted to say. But, yeah, that stuff like that is why people get rebaptist. I'm curious your thoughts on. On rebaptism there. [00:57:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm going to concede right up front that sometimes it's necessary. I just don't think it's nearly as necessary as it has become. A lot of people do. And I. This is. You know, I said this. Another guy interviewed me, Nathan Razor had me on to talk about the book, and he said he had had it three times. This is not a shot at anybody who's been rebaptized. My wife was. My sister was a lot of people. Because our teaching breeds this kind of doubt in it, and it goes back to. Our faith is in our understanding of baptism. Our faith is in our part in baptism. It's not. We're being baptized out of faith in Christ. Yeah. It's almost like the incantation, you know, was the right. You know, and you did the right dance and like it. Why, as you said, why'd you get baptized? I got baptized into Christ to wash away my sins. If you're doing this out of faith in Christ, and you guys will appreciate this, not everyone's a football fan. I make the analogy about baptism in the book about the catch rules in the NFL, that getting your hands on the ball is not enough. Right. You got to get the ball in your control. Take two steps in the field of play, not out of bounds. If you fall down, you have to hold onto the ball through the ground. If you fall down and the ball pops out and doesn't Count. Like there's all these rules, you have to do all of these things. And if any of those is not any of those elements are missing, it's not a catch. So when people talk about faith. [00:59:03] Speaker C: Again that pendulum swing, we think faith means just mentally assenting and going, yeah, I believe Jesus is real. Faith is this whole ball of wax of trust in God. And it's impossible to take baptism out of the equation of faith. And so if you say, yeah, my faith is in Christ, therefore I'm going to repent of my sins, confess him as Lord, get in the waters of baptism, that's the completing of the catch. And you take one of those away. Okay, you don't have a catch, right? It's not just touching the ball, it's all those things. And so when that's the case and we start going back and parsing out the well, at what step did you, where, where in this, like. [00:59:40] Speaker C: Were you baptized out of faith or not? Because what ends up happening is know that faith is separated from baptism. Faith is over here. And then baptism is a thing we have to do. [00:59:48] Speaker B: The five steps of salvation thing, 100%. [00:59:51] Speaker C: It is, it really is. And I do not like phrasing it as the five steps. I look at it, the whole thing again as a process that is all faith. Yes, we're saved by faith. Because when they say we saved by faith, well, we're not saved by baptism. Like there's a stupid debate, why are you baptized? Because of faith. Because you believe in the one who told you to get baptized. Right? Like that's. And we get this on some level when we use like Naaman in the Old Testament, going and dipping in the Jordan River. Well, it was, you know, his faith, like, it was because he didn't have faith that he wasn't healed. When he did have faith, he was healed, he still had to go get in the water. Like, yes, all of the elements, don't take the elements away. But like always second guessing ourselves means we've put faith over here, put baptism over here, and baptism is all on us. So yeah, we believe in Christ to save us as long as we do this thing, right? Like just get baptized, just, just go under the water. Like, and, and if, if you did that in the belief that this is what Jesus wanted you to do, to be, you know, to be saved. And as part of that equation. [01:00:51] Speaker C: We, we really need to give people the confidence to be like, yeah, you know, be assured of your salvation. So that's a really big one, unfortunately. [01:01:01] Speaker B: Any thoughts show? [01:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah, No, I. It's just such a good discussion. You know, this is so needed. There's so many avenues. We have other things we didn't get to. [01:01:12] Speaker A: I am literally for everybody, full disclosure. I'm like 82 pages into the book. I think the book's a little over 200 pages. And I pulled out so. And I skipped ahead a little bit, you know, as we were prepping for it. Skipped ahead and grabbed a couple things. But I'm going through the book. I'm underlining, you know, kind of studying through it. And a lot of the questions we asked are in the first 80 pages of the book. So that's how chock full this is. Clearly there's so much to discuss here to get into the rebaptism thing. I mean, that's. It's in the book. Jack discusses that he does a really good job laying these things out. [01:01:40] Speaker C: And so the one. We didn't have time for that. I do want to push to the deep end. And so join us on focus/focuspress.org plus if you want to hear this part or just get the book because it's in there as well. It is falling away. Yeah, do both of those things. That's great. Falling away. I believe it's possible, but I also believe that it's only those who believe falling away as possible who can have assurance. [01:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to say I have this on here to explain your quote. The only people who can feel assured in their current state are those who believe they can fall away. It's a great quote. I was hoping to have you expound on it. As you said, that'll push to the deep end because it's an interesting concept. They think, and I know you've debated some people on this. Those in the denominational world that once saved, always saved, very much believe we have the salvation we or we have the assurance. And you push back quite a bit on that. I think you look at it as. They don't actually have hardly any assurance. We're the ones that do because we can lose it. Therefore, we know that we have it. You don't know if you have it because you don't know if you can lose. You know what I mean? And then if you lose it at the end, it's like, well, he never had it to begin with. Which is kind of how they get around the, you know, people falling away and so very shaky. You do a really good job of explaining it. And so we'll push that to the deep end. But will any other thoughts before we look to wrap. [01:02:47] Speaker B: Jack, appreciate you, of course, writing the book, but then also being willing to talk about it for an hour. [01:02:52] Speaker C: Well, thank you guys for kind of handing me the mic and letting me riff on it for a bit. But again, a number of the deep thinkers have already bought it, contacted me or left an Amazon review. Very much appreciated. That's one of those. You release a book and like, well, five people might buy this and it'll be my mom and my brother and sister and Will or something like that. But no, it's been really nice to see that it's helped some people. So I appreciate that. [01:03:14] Speaker B: Bring your questions, especially you deep thinkers. [01:03:17] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:03:18] Speaker B: Any questions, comments you have on there. If you're not subscribed to Focus plus, leave us a comment on Facebook, leave a question, YouTube, whatever it is, and we'll try to circle around and, yeah, grapple with the question that you ask. [01:03:31] Speaker A: And here's the thing. If everybody buys the book and reads it and has so many questions, we might do a part two, not just a deep end, do a part two on something. If there's a ton. I think we did a pretty good job here today. And Jack, you covered a lot of. But there's a lot of different stuff, so make sure you grab the book. Buy like 5 copies for everybody that you know, especially around Christmas time. Make for great gifts. You know how it is. Go to Amazon, support the book, support Focus Press. But yeah, anything else? [01:03:55] Speaker C: All for me. [01:03:56] Speaker A: All right, well, thanks, guys. Jack Sar, you usually lead us out. [01:04:00] Speaker C: Well, I'll say the usual. We'll talk to you guys on the next one. [01:04:19] Speaker C: Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's focuspress.org donate. Thanks again for listening.