The Biggest Challenges Facing the Church in 2026, Pt. 2

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilkie here, joined by Will Harrop and Joe Wilkie. We've got a Part two for you this week and these Part one, Part two, they are standalones. You can listen to one episode and it'll be just fine, but you probably want the first half of the list and so if you missed that, you can go back and catch it when we're done here. You don't necessarily have to listen to that one to get this one. So we're going to pick up right where we left off and I'm interested to see what you guys have on your list because the first one might have been a little predictable. Our listeners might be like, yeah, I could see why they would think those are the problems we might be zagging this week. Will says he's had one loaded. We've been waiting since our last recording to hear it. So I'm going to put him up first. So get us into it. [00:00:48] Speaker A: So just briefly, I was going to say we're recording this basically the day that the part one posts, you know, goes out to the public. And so we haven't gotten to see yet a lot of the feedback. I'm just very curious to see what, you know, what everybody else thinks or maybe some of the bigger threats that missed our radar or just didn't make our list. And so looking forward to that. We will call for it like we did on the first episode, if you've got some, especially if you're a deep thinker on the, on the, on Focus plus, let us know again if there's one that you thought of that we don't have on our list, but the first one. So I have, I have two more to. To go over. The first one might have been a little bit more predictable and the last one is the one that I think it'll be a good, interesting discussion. But as far as biggest challenges. [00:01:29] Speaker B: So he's going to make us wait even longer. You hear that, Joe? He's really getting us on pins and needles here. [00:01:33] Speaker C: Yep, pins and needles. [00:01:35] Speaker A: That's right. The, the first one that I have for today is the continued growth of AI and I think for several reasons. We did an AI episode a year and a half. It's been maybe close to two years. I don't remember when it was. It might have be over two years. [00:01:49] Speaker C: Ago, but, man, time flies. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Obviously, AI is very much in the zeitgeist. We are seeing social media just consistently overTaken by it. AI generated images that are usually Pretty easy to spot. But AI generated videos and you know, people having a hard time, you know, telling was this post or article generated by AI. Like it's just obviously again it's very much in the zeitgeist right now. But why I think this is such a threat for the church is multifold or multilevel number one. I do think it is going to lead to a short, a distortion of biblical truths in the sense of just like people can just kind of Google and find whatever they want on Google now you go to you know, chatgpt and type stuff in. People are going to be leaning on that a bit more and it's very interesting. ChatGPT and they might have fixed it now but like the Google AI and the chat GBT had a pretty bad reputation for like sports knowledge. They, you know, if you, if you like sent something about sports they would just typically give the wrong answer. Kind of showcasing the kind of fallibility of AI. Similarly with biblical truths like you got to be very careful with that. Add to disincentivizes Bible study in my opinion. If you can just plug, you know, let's say you want to study about demons or you want to study about X, Y or Z, you just plug a question to chat GPT and it spit all the stuff out for you. I understand that Google theoretically could have done that, but this is on another level and what you really don't want to do for young people is disincentivize them. Opening the pages of God's word, dissecting a text, looking again, I'm not saying you can't use it as a tool, but looking at resources really trying to derive the meaning from the text themselves as opposed to just plugging into artificial intelligence. Add to that you've got watered down, potentially ChatGPT produced sermons and sermon outlines and stuff like that that we've all covered before. I just think there's a lot of reason to be maybe a little bit, I don't want to say pessimistic but you know, I think the continued growth of AI is going to present some challenges for the, for the church. There's a reason I didn't put this one first, the reason I didn't want to put it last. Like it's kind of right there in the middle as far as I think it's a threat and one that we're going to have to be ready to face for those reasons. But I'm curious Yalls thoughts on that because I know we've talked about this before. [00:04:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I'M a big fan of this one being on the list, but I'll tell you, I don't think it's for young people. I think it's a bigger one for older people. We talked about this before. We talked about this. I think recently as well. It seems the younger people, I'm not saying they're not using it. I think it just got out there. But I'm not saying that young people aren't using it. I think that they are using it at a much lesser rate than older folks are using it. So older folks, I think, are the ones that are going to be a little more bamboozled by the stuff that goes around. You see, like, they'll come up with these crazy Hollywood things, rumors or sports stories. You know, my mom shared one one time. Is this real? Like, luckily she had the good sense to be like, that doesn't sound right. And sure enough, it was an AI thing from. From, you know, a hockey player. It's like, no, that's not true at all. It gets a lot of the older folks going, oh, man, that's the case. Okay, what about archeological evidence? Quote, unquote. What about, you know, a sermon quote from somebody or a biblical take from somebody? You see these podcasts with, with rabbis and things like that. And, and you know, you can get, I don't know. It seems to be a scary place where AI ends up coming in. The AI images are generated, the AI things are said. People are going to these different places trying to find. Trying to find stuff for really cool information that goes. My rabbi point is they're finding new information. They find it fascinating. People know that, they see that. And it's very easy to then come up with other things because I think there's a gold mine of, hey, look at the Bible this way. Have you considered it from this angle? In my opinion, that's where the. We might face a problem from the older folks, less from the younger folks not needing it because the younger folks have had digital Bibles for sure. Years. Things that do the thinking for them in a lot of ways. But my thoughts. What are your thoughts? [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, Jack, I was cur. Go. Go for it. Jack, I'm curious on your thoughts on kind of that low, lower quality of Bible knowledge. Like, we're already kind of in an age where Bible knowledge is not quite what it should be, in my opinion. And people don't really know how to study. I guess I just see that problem being compounded by AI. So maybe I didn't explain that super well, but that's kind of where I'm at with it. [00:06:05] Speaker B: It is because if somebody goes to it for, like, if you have the Bible knowledge, then you can view it a lot more skeptically when it tells you something you can use. And I still hesitate to use it as a tool for something like that. But this is a thing that happens where you can trust something a lot. Well, people trust the media a lot until the media covers a field that they are really passionate about and know a lot about. And they go, wait, they're just wrong about that. And then that's kind of the first domino that falls where you go, oh, wow. If they're wrong about my field, where I know a lot about, they're probably wrong with things I don't know a lot about. And this will happen with AI, the LLMs that they're giving you this text and you go, that's not right. And I know that's not right, but I've trusted it for everything else it said because I didn't know better. Well, now I need to be more skeptical. And I think that's your point a little bit, Joe, is that younger people know to be more skeptical, to take it with a grain of salt. Because the real issue here is you can Google what does the Bible say about baptism? And it's going to return you a page of 10 results. And you can keep scrolling a bunch of however many pages you want, but you can click the first one and see, well, here's what this guy says about it. Then you click the next one. [00:07:10] Speaker A: And now this is the next one, right? [00:07:11] Speaker B: And you can see, like, when the screen loads, you can see, oh, there's five different opinions on this. When you ask the thing, it's going to give you one. And depending on how you ask it, people sometimes will share these and be like, see, even grok or even ChatGPT knows that the Church of Christ is right about baptism. It's like, yeah, because you asked it using our terminology. So it ran a web search using our terminology and it found articles written by our people. But if you had used other terminology like faith alone or whatever else, that would have given you a different result because it's just running searches for you. And so the skepticism that you need there. But again, you have to know to have skepticism and you also have to have some knowledge upon which. Because I've used it to, you know, for some things for the Revelation videos I'm doing. And it just threw something out there. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's right. And there's. I know where it got that because I just read that on this one guy site and I don't think he's right about that. [00:08:06] Speaker A: But from that article. [00:08:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, essentially it's allowed to plagiarize. And so you can. And you're not even. You don't know that it's coming from some guy. If you're not careful about that, that's where you get sucked in. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like I said, it's one of those. It's not a very spicy or exciting answer, but I definitely think it's one that we need to be ready for. I think the older, younger distinction is an interesting one that you bring up there, Joe. I do agree. The, you know, the stuff that you see online, older people can tend to get a little bit duped by it a little bit more often. But that's all that I had for that first one. [00:08:42] Speaker B: I was gonna add one other thing because as this Minnesota Ice story keeps being at the top of the headline, there's an image going around right now of, oh, look at this thing that happened. This should be on the front of every newspaper in America. And when you look closer at it, the ice agent in the picture doesn't have a head because it was an AI generated image to make it look like, oh, it's open and shut case. Therefore, this should be a, you know, criminal investigator, whatever it may be. And it's like. And people are just sharing it uncritically because when you look at it at first, it catches you like, whoa, what happened there? And it looks like the real thing. Well, it obviously, back in the day, somebody would Photoshop it. Well, now they just AI it and you look a little bit closer and the guy doesn't have a head. Well, it gets better every time. It's not going to make that error in six months. And so trusting things in the news is just as dangerous, or trusting things going around on social media is very dangerous for the kinds of discussions we're having. So I think that's part of the skepticism as well. [00:09:35] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the only other thing I was going to add is just, I'm glad you guys said it. You brought it up a couple times. It's just the skepticism. I think people's skepticism will increase, especially on the younger generations of can we trust this? That also provides an opportunity. Since Christianity can be trusted, you know, the Bible can be trusted, we are going to have to have the burden of proof to show that it can absolutely be trusted that things are going to be, you know, there is truth out there because truth is quote, unquote, truth is coming from. AI is coming from a lot of different places. And people need to know where they can go to find trustworthy information. The church is going to have to be forefront and center on that, you know, to make sure that we are, you know, letting people know where they can find actual truth for things of actual value. Because that's, again, going to be a premium, I think, in the future. [00:10:21] Speaker A: No doubt, no doubt. [00:10:22] Speaker B: All right, all right. Next on my list is the. How do I want to put this? The figuring out where we stand on masculinity and femininity there. We've talked a lot, and so I don't want to. I don't want to rehash the points we've had about happy wife, happy live, male leadership, female. You know, if you've listened for any time at all, you know where we stand on that. And a lot of people stand there, but a lot of people don't stand there. And there's this clash that's forming because the other thing that happens with something like this is there's an implicit or people just infer, I guess, that they're being judged. When you say, hey, we're doing this. We're not doing that triangle leadership of family leadership model. We're doing the umbrella. And, well, we've always done it this way. And so they take it as a judgment. And then there is the overcorrection that's out there. And so they say, well, any change is the overcorrection. And so it's one of these kind of meeting in the middle. And when you've got people at church just continuing to joke about, well, you know, I wear the pants, but she picks them out and stuff like that. Well, you're saying you don't lead your family, and I'm. We're not going for that anymore. And the more those conversations happen, the more friction is going to happen. And I think that's something that is starting to come to a head. [00:11:35] Speaker A: That's what I worry about. [00:11:36] Speaker C: This is future. Sorry, go for it. [00:11:38] Speaker A: I was just. I'll go first, Joe, and then I'll let you take it. This is a great addition. I've got a. I've got a question for you, Jack, that maybe I'll ask and let you answer when it comes back around to your turn, but something that, you know, it's not original to myself or anything like that. Multiple people have brought it up. One of the biggest problems that has faced the church for three decades now, maybe longer, is men not leading their families in a Christ like manner, like the way that they should. They're not shepherding their family, the flock of their family. They're not raising their kids to be faithful, not really leading in the home. Just a sounding void of masculinity in the church and masculine leadership in the church. Once again, like it's kind of a free for all. If kids are going to be faithful, if man, if you bring your family to church three times a week, you're like an A plus Christian husband, right? That's kind of the, the attitude that, that most congregations have. And so I do think that is a, that's been probably the number one problem that has been facing the church, but not just this year, previous years, like for the last 30 years. And so as you're talking about Jack, it all coming to a head, it's like people are starting to wake up to say man, maybe this bill of goods that we've been sold from a male and female husband, wife perspective is a bad one. I want Joe to go next, but I guess I'll go ahead and pose my question to you Jack, for once again when you come back around, where do you think it leads to? Like what do you, what do you think the end result is? I guess if you're just talking about gonna be more friction, I do agree with that. Like I know for myself personally as a, you know, young 26 year old, I have less and less patience for those, those types of sayings that you were giving as examples, Jack, and just kind of the very clear, in my opinion, violation of the biblical hierarchy and things like that. And so there is going to be more disagreement, things are going to come to a head more. I'm curious what you think the end result of that will be. But Joe, I know you had some thoughts. [00:13:25] Speaker C: No, no, go for it Jack. I'm curious here. I'm curious your thoughts on it. I'll save one. [00:13:28] Speaker B: There's going to be a lot of friction. There's going to be, I feel like the male, the, the husband led view is going to lose for a while still because it's not popular enough. Because as with anything, you've got the people who are entrenched in doing things the wrong way, which I would say it's the wrong way to let your wife pick out the pants in the family, so to speak. But then you've got the people who when they see the friction coming, are Gonna blame the person who's trying to change things back the right way. And there's just too many of those. [00:13:57] Speaker A: People keep the peace, the neutral, the. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Neutral parties, the neutrals. And so I think prepare to lose a lot if you're on this side of things. Prepare to have things not go your way. But it's one of those, you keep putting that message out there and generationally and the years you're going to win some people over and that's a good thing. Even though it's going to be kind of hard for a while because number one, the neutrals, they, they just don't want there to be any problems, they don't want any boat rocking. But then the other thing is men who won't lead their wives, the one time you're ever going to see them find a backbone to find them, which again apparently was our word of the year last year when Riverside General was backbone. [00:14:31] Speaker D: Right. [00:14:32] Speaker B: The one time you're ever going to see those guys step up and take a stand is when their wife tells them to go. When, when they were told they weren't leading their wife or you know, when, when, when it's exposed that they're not the head of their family, then all of a sudden they, they can find courage and so get used to some negative effects of that. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Sorry, I keep cutting in front of Joe. One quick thought and I'm actually curious your thoughts on this, Joe. I also think it's going to take time because what this also requires is raising your sons and daughters differently. And that's an 18 year process. That is not a, you know what I mean? And so like myself as a 26 year old can be very up in arms and very passionate about, you know, the roles of husbands, the roles of wives and making sure that we are aligned biblically. But I also have a four year old and a two year old who they're not going to be in that position for another 15, 20 years. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:21] Speaker A: And so it's going to be a process an amount of time before you know, that I'm going to take to raise my kids hopefully with that exact same worldview. And so to your point, Jack, of kind of maybe taking some, taking some Ls for the next few, you know, years, maybe a decade or so. It's because the disciples that we're raising our own kids, who hopefully are going to share that same perspective of a wife submitting, you know, the umbrella role and the husband, you know, faithfully leading his family, it's going to take some time, you know, Yalls kids are young, my kids are young. And so that's, that's an another element that I wanted to bring up of just it's not going to be an instant overnight fix. But if we can raise up a whole generation, you know, just like Gen Z, you know, whatever, the next generation, generation Alpha and the generation after that to have more of this worldview of what a truly a Christian husband. I mean, you see it with the tradwife thing, like people are waking up going, huh, maybe staying at home and raising my kids is actually what I want to do, you know. And so yeah, that's just my. But it's going to take time, I guess, is my thought there. Joe, curious your thoughts. [00:16:18] Speaker C: Took 40 years in the wilderness. Some die off and some rise up, you know, and those who died off did not make the promised land. It's going to be similar. Some will die off, some are going to have to. And some are going to have to raise up 40 years to get all of that out of the children of Israel, you know, leaving Egypt and coming into the promised land. It'll take some time. The point I was going to make, you know, we get a lot of pushback on our gym podcast of we, as I mentioned this before, don't you guys like, you know, don't. What do you think of women? Do you like women? Do you like your wives? You know, things like that. And it's like, yes, we very much do. We love women. We love our wives. You know, all of us have daughters. We're not chauvinistic, we're not sexist, we're not any of those things. We're trying to get the roles right because we're kind of pushing back on it. People are, they, you know, they naturally freak out. They look at it and go, well, you must hate women. A generation is coming. We've talked about this before with the anti Semitism. The generation is coming where they're going to be like alt, right? As they talk about where they're swinging the pendulum too far. You will have guys that swing the pendulum too far in an attempt to try to lead their family. Yes, they're going to be overbearing, yes, they're going to be jerks. We're going to have to swing the pendulum, but we can't stay where we are. And that has been the backlash, I think, to what was that case, you know, of. And I go back to Prohibition and women trying to be morality for men because men weren't ruling themselves. And so because of that, the Pendulum swung to, well, men are just terrible. And let's let women make all the moral decisions because they're naturally more moral, which we all know is garbage. The problem is, if you swing it to the other side, which I'm afraid is what's going to happen to Jack's point, there's going to be a. There's going to be a lot of friction to that, and there's going to be people that overstep it, and we're going to have to understand that. So we're going to have to have people, older people in authority that don't browbeat them for doing that as much as they go, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's come down a little bit. I appreciate that you want to lead your family. Here's how to lead your family. What we get right now is, do you even. Do you like women at all? That is just not how we do things. And it's very passive aggressive. It's very feminine in nature. And they're trying to swing the pendulum back to what they're comfortable with, which is wusses, which is, you know, you do what your wife wants you to do. We got to find balance. And that's going to take some leadership that's willing to say, yeah, we know that we've got to swing the pendulum back. We just want to make sure that we're not swinging it to the overbearing, you know, jerk side. We really want to find a good balance in between. But they cannot be allergic to that side by just sticking to what's comfortable, I guess. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Well, that's the issue is any correction is viewed as an overcorrection. [00:18:46] Speaker C: Right? [00:18:47] Speaker B: And because people know there needs to be a correction, they just ignore any caution about the overcorrection. That's how they overcorrect. Like, no, we need to see a correction. I just finished reading Joe Rigney's book the Sin of Empathy. They changed it to the Leadership and the Sin of Empathy. [00:19:00] Speaker A: When's that book review. When's that book review coming out, Jack? [00:19:03] Speaker B: Probably be out by the time this episode drops, so if anyone wants to go check it out on YouTube. But he talks about the progressive gaze G, A, Z, E that everyone we've got. Well, he basically says you've got this little progressive on your shoulder that you're wanting to appease. You're wanting to, you know, he's watching everything you do and you're cognizant of that. And so you always. You're hedging everything. Well, oh, hey, we don't want people to think this. We don't want people. You're making sure that little progressive voice inside your head and you know how many times we run into this and it's exactly what Joe's saying. Well, don't you like women? Or well, you don't want to trample your women? Well, no, but we're talking about leadership here. Here we're talking about a good, godly, virtuous husband leading his wife, good godly, virtuous elders leading the church. And immediately the little progressive on people's shoulders starts going, that sounds like authoritarianism. That sounds like, well, we don't want to go like being a dictator. Yeah. And so that is, that's exactly, exactly the kind of friction I'm talking about is as we start to break through that and go, I'm sorry, I'm not beholden to a little progressive on your shoulder. Okay. And I'm going to be careful about overcorrection. That's fair. But I'm also your let's stick six inches from this ditch. Does not. We're done with that. And that's going to lead to some issues. Journey through the foundation of Scripture with remarkable clarity and insight. From creation to Joseph's final days in Egypt, One Family's history guides readers through the pivotal events that shaped the nation of Israel. 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One Family's History serves as both an introduction for newcomers to Genesis, a valuable resource for seasoned Bible students seeking deeper understanding of Scripture's foundational book. Find One Family's History by Adam Kozart on Amazon today. [00:21:39] Speaker C: Yeah, good stuff, good stuff. All right, I'm gonna go with mine. [00:21:42] Speaker A: We could talk about that for another hour, I would imagine. [00:21:45] Speaker B: That's one of our wheelhouse issues for sure. [00:21:48] Speaker C: And that also gets the most play, to be fair. I think people very much want to hear those things because it's not talked about a ton, unfortunately. Mine is. [00:21:57] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:22:00] Speaker C: For today's. Yes or number seven total, I guess, or eight. Sorry, rather, eight total. Political issues and political divides. I do think that when we think about threats, I hate bringing politics in. A lot of people just get very like, oh, man, we can't talk about politics. We're going to have to talk about politics. And I think that's my point. Those that want to steer clear of political issues are missing the boat. For the people that are coming to church because of natural political issues like Charlie Kirk, we could say that's not a political issue. It's a human issue. It absolutely is a political issue because you had some people cheering it and you had some people mourning it. A lot of people mourning it. [00:22:38] Speaker A: That's. [00:22:39] Speaker C: And what was the divide? Politics. Right. You have the left and you have the right, and people look at it and go, well, I don't identify with those. It's like, you're going to have to, because that is the party that absolutely is condemning everything he said that has led to the political violence where somebody is shot. We have people rushing back into church. We made this point on the last podcast, but we have people rushing back into church because of Charlie Kirk's death, his assassination. We have to be able to handle political issues in the church. And we have done the kind of monkey where you close the eyes and the ears, the mouth. We don't want to have to think about it. We don't want to see it. We don't have to hear about it. We don't have to do any of those things when it comes to politics, because we just preach Christ from the pulpit. We don't preach the. We don't preach the elephant or the donkey. We preach the lamb. You're going to have to get used to preaching against the donkey a lot more. Some people are already doing it. We're going to have to. No, you cannot be a Christian and be a Democrat and support the Democrats. You can't. We'll come right out on this podcast and absolutely say it. It doesn't mean you have to be Republican. It means you cannot support a party of death, a party that pushes transgenderism, pushes abortion, pushes euthanasia, pushes assassinations on, you know, and is cheering assassination attempts, things like that. Well, they cheer the assassination of those. Minnesota. First off, that didn't happen. Second off, that whole situation is Very screwy with how it happens. Very, very messed up and how that took place. People weren't cheering the political assassination of those that took place in Minnesota. They were absolutely cheering the political assassination of Charlie Kirk. We're dealing with unhinged people right now, and the church is going to have to get hip to that and be willing to discuss political things, be willing to wade into it. Doesn't mean it goes over Christ. It means Christ is ruling over our political affiliation as well. We have to be willing to discuss this, to get into the nitty gritty, to have these conversations with people and to address political issues, because that is what's driving people to church right now. And so it doesn't mean that every single Sunday is political hour. You know, we need another. We need another daily wire show from the pulpit. We don't need that. What we need, though, is people that are willing to take bold stands on political issues. Here's what Christ has to say about it. Here's how the gospel rules over ice and rules over, you know, this newest video from Matt Walsh or this newest video from Don Lemon or whatever it may be. And the reason this is important, I'll open up to you guys. The reason this is important is you think of something like, you know, speaking of Don Lemon, him going into the church, persecution is coming. These people just walked into a Baptist church in Minnesota to protest. Things could have gotten very bad from there. Tons of people could have gotten hurt if somebody had opened, fired. Who knows? Political and religious are starting to become like this. They're starting to be tied. The fact that it walked into churches. Jack made a great point. I can't rem if it was on X or on Facebook. But a great point about this is where it starts. You know, when you look at the French Revolution, when you look at what took place in Spain, you know, Spanish Revolution, it started with them going after priests, them going after clergy, them going after church members. This may be happening again. The church is going to have to get hip to this and to prepare its members of like this may be coming. Here's what we do in this situation. So, yes, we're going to have to think about politics in a way that we've long been pushing off so as to appease people. It's time to stop appeasing people that are on the left and start realizing you are either for Christ or you are against Christ. And one political party is absolutely against Christ. So. And there's no. Well, both are bad. No, there's one whose platform is death. And destruction and everything against God. So it's time to get off the fence on it. [00:26:05] Speaker A: I do think. I'm sure Jack's got a lot of thoughts on this, but I'll go ahead and go. I do think we have got to move away from making anything that's tangentially politically related taboo from the pulpit, even in Bible classes. One of the things that I really appreciate about both you guys and another one of the guys that was teaching on the rotation with us on Wednesday nights is if there was something news relevant that very much applied to biblical principles and to give the qualifiers that we probably don't need to give but will, like, you don't need to have every class be a newsreel recap, essentially. But, you know, there's something relevant. We cover it and say, you know, how does, how does this apply to our Christian life? How does this apply to our Christianity? How does this apply to God's word? A lot of churches don't do that because of the taboo, because of the, you know, you don't really want to bring politics into it. And so, Joe, I agree with this addition because I think we've got to once again just move away from that idea that anything even remotely politically related we just can't touch because, you know, there's, there's, there's strong feelings on both sides. And to your point, I think we're at the point where we need to say there might be strong feelings on both sides, but we need to make sure that we're united on one side. We don't need to worry about both sides. We need to worry about which side is the correct side and that's the side we're going to align ourselves with. And, man, talk about friction that we were talking about earlier. Talk about kind of uncomfortable conversations, talk about maybe some awkward classes, Bible classes, discussions, meetings, whatever it is. I think the more that we just shy away, shy away, shy away, the more that our congregations, not to keep making this a young person, old person thing, but specifically young people, will turn to other outlets for their answers, will turn to other outlets for their, you know, how do I handle this as a Christian again, ICE or immigration in general, or, you know, any number of political issues that are being thrown our way, the more that the church just says, ah, hands off, we want to stay away, like, let's just not talk about it, the more they're going to look somewhere else, and I would say the lower our numbers are going to get. And it's not all about numbers by any means. But, man, as we've said a thousand times, Christians want to know the things that they see on social media, the things that are impacting their lives. How does that apply to being a Christian? Like, what precepts from God's word apply to this? We got to be ready for that as it applies to politics. I think this is a really good addition, Joe. [00:28:21] Speaker C: Jack. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Sure. You got some thoughts? What would you say on this one? [00:28:24] Speaker B: Yeah, there was that stat, the one about 80% of people want to hear a sermon on immigration from their preacher that you might say, oh, people don't want politics from the pulpit. Actually, they do. And the other side of it is they want to know which side you're on, to know whether they want to align with you. And so I think at the heart of what you're saying here, Joe, is we have to just give up the delusion of unity. We're not united. We. I mean, because somebody is going to hear us say, you know, I'm behind ICE and anti immigration stuff. And I mean, this Facebook friend was posting about how they're the Gestapo. I mean, they're the Nazi police out there doing this stuff. And it's like, I'm sorry, you and I aren't going to see eye to eye. And if we don't see eye to eye on this, you say, well, then we're being divided by politics. No, no, there's something way under this. It's morality, it's familial. [00:29:13] Speaker C: It's a totally different worldview. Understanding. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Hierarchy. This is law enforcement. This is the nationality. Can you. Can nations even exist and all of those kinds of things. And also like these people, they're strapping a baby on their back, going out in 15 below zero wind chill to protest. Like, I'm sorry, you're gonna go do this for criminals and risk your baby? Like, you're deranged. I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. And it's the thing about the heat map of the Ordo amoris, Right? Like, I love my kids more than I love people from all over the world, and that's okay, but they're looking at us. I gotta love everybody equally, which means risking my 18 month old for these people. How on earth are we supposed to get along? And so there's just dozens of guys still running around going, well, we just can't let politics divide us or you'll see the, you know, if we actually talk to each other, we'll find we have more in common than we. No, these people in Virginia, we Talked about this at the time. The guy running for attorney general, those texts leaked. He wanted his opponents, conservative opponents, children's children dead. Said maybe they'll change their minds if their children died. And they elected him. Like we're. And somebody rushes in, you know, we got more in common than we. No, they want. Because the kids he wanted dead were kids of people who believe like the. [00:30:29] Speaker C: Three of us do. [00:30:30] Speaker B: So he would say the same about us. I don't want anyone's kids dead. He wants my kids dead. We're not on the same team. And if you want to align with him against me, I'm gonna have to take that. Take you at your word. Okay? And so that's the thing that I'm really just getting sick of is all the people going, you know what if we just stop paying attention to politics, we'd be united. No, the underlying things, as you said will that are under every that the politics is the surface level thing. There's a million assumptions and ologies underneath this that lead to this. [00:31:02] Speaker C: Well, I don't know if you guys thoughts. Here's the thing. If you remove a political party from it and start. Start talking about. Because all these people like, man, you can't just preach political parties. Okay, so let's remove Democrat from the situation. Liberals. So let's just say you got a buddy who's turning transgenderism or turning transgender and you are fully in support of this. How does the church respond to that? How should the church respond to that? Or you have a woman who's considering an abortion, you're fine with it, you're willing to pay, help pay for the abortion. And how should elders respond to those things? We look at it and go, absolutely not. The elders need to step in and go, man, you can't support that. That would be a sin and you'd be wrong with it. Why is it not the same when you're supporting a political party that you know is going to push this upon millions of people? I don't understand how you're not complicit. That's why we vote. And I don't understand how elders can't get involved on situations like this. And I'm glad you said that. Jack of like, man, politics divide like, no, it is speaking to the political divide is speaking to much bigger issues. And with everything that you're talking about, there are so many different things. And it comes down to do you respect God and his rule? And right now there is a party that just does not. They don't respect rule in general, because it's its own. We've done a critical race theory. We did that one. Or not critical race. Critical theory is run by critical theory, which is all about power structures and things like that. Who's the power structure that they're really raging against? God. We know that. And so when they are rushing critical theory into schools, they're rushing it. All of these, you know, the power structures of big bad ice coming in to shoot these poor innocent people. Like, well, first off, they're not innocent. And second off, they're, you know, they're trying to keep law, keep order here. And if you don't see it that way, I don't know how we're going to be able to get past this. We can say, let's be Christians. And the moment that something controversial is brought up, you think that I'm Satan or you think that I'm Hitler and are calling me a Nazi. How do those two things come together? They don't. [00:32:57] Speaker A: This is the product. My dad growing up listened to him, he had several lessons and he made a big, put a big emphasis on this idea of a worldview. And so maybe, you know, maybe just listening to him for, you know, a decade plus has instilled that in me as well or ingrained that in my head. This is what you get when you have 20, 30 years worth of a church that did not instill a Christian worldview in their young people. This is how you can have people who sit in the same pew, social media friends or whatever that would both call themselves Christians, serving the same God or whatever that can be fundamentally opposed on some of these really, really important issues, voting different ways. And again, you can, we can look at and go, how on earth can you get to that conclusion? And they can look at us the same. Guess what? It's because from the time they were five years old, they were not raised with the same worldview as, as a faith, as a faithful Christian is supposed to be. We told people, hey, get them to church, the rest will work itself out. Instead of, no, this is a worldview that you must instill in them from the time that they're five years old. And so again, I had a youth group of 30 people, bunch of different worldviews going on from, you know, for 13 to 18 year olds at that time frame. I'm sure you guys can say the same as opposed to no. There's one Christ worldview that we're trying and it applies to everything. It applies to politics, to entertainment, to raising kids, to getting married, to Making money, all these things. We haven't done that in the church for the last 30 years. And so it really should not be a shock, in my opinion, that we're getting to this point that you're speaking of both of you guys about. Again, we sit in the same pew, but, man, how on earth can you support that? Well, it's because you haven't had the worldview that I've had for the last 30 years. So, again, maybe that's pessimistic, but until we get back to teaching and again, bringing up these young people with a. Not just a. Again, get to church and the rest will figure itself out. Or make sure you know the subject. You know, all things we always talk about. What. What is the worldview that we're supposed to have? What is the Christian worldview? And it cannot be a. A choose your own adventure. It cannot be a buffet of. Yeah, you just kind of pick what you like. And if you want to, you know, if you want to support or, you know, support illegal immigration, go for it. If you want to support, you know, abortion under some circumstances, go for it. Like, no, no, you don't get that option. Well, the problem is we've given people that option for the last 30, 40 years in churches. And so this one, to me, is a product of that. [00:35:15] Speaker B: It really is. And I want to just clarify before we move off this one, what we're not saying here is Christians can only be unified if they agree on every platform of. Or that, you know, that you have to just be mindless cheerleaders for one party. Yeah, none of that at all. In fact, there's plenty of room for disagreement within these worldviews. But that's. To me, it's just so crazy. Like, you know what? Democrats and Republicans used to get along like. Well, yeah, we didn't used to have to argue over if men could use a women's bathroom. Like, yeah, it's a lot easier to get along when you're. When it's little things, when it's tax rates and stuff like that. That's not what we're doing here. And so, though, if you get it back to that spectrum, yeah, we can agree to disagree, but that's not the spectrum anymore. It's literally reality, is the political spectrum. And I don't know. But again, people are gonna hear this and go, you know, they view their news channels. They're on the other side of things, and go, how can you believe any of that? [00:36:10] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:36:11] Speaker B: I'm not gonna convince you. You're not gonna Convince me. What do we even do from there? I wanted to tell you guys about my new ebook, Christ's Co Rulers, Understanding Christian Political Engagement. Drawn from essays I've written over the last few years, but also featuring a number of new entries on some of the day's most pressing issues, like immigration, abortion, and addressing those that say that Christians shouldn't be involved in the political realm, and laying out the plan for how we can impact the world for good under the lordship of Christ. So check that out. You can get it on Focus Press, you can get on Amazon, or it is a perk for paying subscribers at jackwilkie Co. So pick up a copy of Christ's co Rulers on one of those platforms today. [00:36:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys, I'm gonna go ahead and get us into our number four for today. This is one that. Yeah, I'm sure I probably hyped it up too much. It's not even that special. But I'm curious y' all's thoughts. A pretty big challenge facing the church in 2026 and moving forward, in my opinion, is over correctionism. I think I view this as a pretty big threat to what I believe to be rational common sense, because the overcorrection. So I think about, you know, guys like Nick Fuentes, we did a Jolly man podcast episode on him. Guys like Andrew Tate did an episode on him as well. Like very prominent figures that most of us as Christians can look at and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There are some crazy things coming out of their mouth. They, you know, they should not say those things. You know, I disagree. Here's the problem with both of those guys, and people are gonna, you know, go crazy. It's just true. There are some foundational truths within the things that they say. That is what's so appealing to young men, as we've discussed before. And so why the overcorrectionism is a problem is because the overcorrection detracts from what might be foundational once again and very crucial truths that need to be said. But it detracts from it because it's shrouded and it's enveloped in this unchristlike behavior, this unchristlike verbiage. And so it's repulsive to people. And so they not only will give up on the foundation or on the, you know, unchristlike verbiage and behaviors they should, they're also going to give up on the foundational truths that are hidden within that. Does that make sense? Maybe a poor example, but an example that I kind of thought of Was like, let's travel back five years. And let's say that I'm trying to convince Jack, hey, maybe you shouldn't take the COVID vaccine. Maybe he's on the fence about it right now. I'm trying to, you know, maybe, hey, don't take this COVID vaccine. And Joe's helping me out and trying to convince him. And Joe pipes in and says, yeah, you know, they're actually putting microchips in the vaccine. Or, you know, comes out with some, you know, hey, by the way, I also think the Earth is flat. Or, hey, also, I think birds are actually government surveillance drone or surveillance drones. Like, at that point, if it's me, I'm like, all right, Joe, pipe down. Like, you're not helping the situation. And Jack at that point is probably going, okay, both of these guys are crazy. Even though I never said that, you know, birds or government surveillance or surveillance drones or anything like that, or that the Earth was flat. But because, you know, one of us was. Was pushing so hard and kind of overcorrecting, it pushed again, in my little metaphor there, it pushed Jack away from what might actually be something that he needs to know, which is, hey, maybe don't take the COVID backs. Right. Surely we're far enough away from that where this episode won't be censored, I hope, right? [00:39:27] Speaker B: You never know, right? [00:39:28] Speaker A: No, my point is, though, I see the exact same thing happening here. And we've already kind of touched on it, we've already kind of covered it in a previous point, but like us talking about men leading their families or getting back to some of the, you know, just saying what needs to be said. Guys like Fuentes, unfortunately, guys like Andrew Tate, and, you know, maybe some of these younger gen zers are going to overcorrect so hard that it's really going to detract from the. Some of the main truths of the message, some of the main truths that a lot of Christians need to hear and a lot of the unchurched needs to hear. And so this is a bit of a different vein from some of the stuff that we've covered so far in either one of these two episodes. That's why I was curious to get Yalls thoughts. But I really do see it as a threat because once again, just like, you know, the guy that's like, hey, I also believe the Earth's flats, like, dude, pipe down. You're really not helping me here. Similarly, these people, it's like, guys, man, we're so close and you're just you know, coming out here again, unchristlike language and saying stuff, it's like you really. You had them there for. You know, you had them, you had them and then you lost them because you went too far. So over correctionism, I see as a pretty. Pretty big threat. I don't know who wants to go first, but what are yalls thoughts on that one I had to just bring. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Into mind for me, just briefly. Joe and I have been doing the devos for the Closer Walkbooks and for Focus plus and the story of David and his. His many encounters and battles. But Joab in there, you know, it's like, all right, we got to go fight the bad guys. And every time it's like, whoa, Joab, chill, dude. You know, like, he's just out there to kill whoever gets in his way. And like, he kills Absalom and he killed just very bloodthirsty guy. To the point where, you know, before David dies, he tells Solomon basically, like, don't keep that guy around because, you know, he's. He's a man of great bloodshed. But is one of those. The problem needed to be addressed, but the guy going way too far with it, as you're saying, is it really hurts the cause. And so this is an interesting one because there are so many corrections coming because there are these generational things. Yeah. And also there's a degree to which you don't have to say everything you know or believe. Like, you got to kind of make room. And this goes back to our point about the. The gender wars kind of coming. Make room to let people come along slowly. You know, if they don't agree with you on day one. Okay. But let them. Let them come along. [00:41:41] Speaker C: I think this is one that will be better solved in person than online. And what I mean by that is it's a harder thing to swing the pendulum back when you have real world consequences and real world people that you have to talk to and deal with. One of the reasons this takes place online is they initially say some things. It's like, hey, that's pretty good. It gets progressively crazier, more crude, more out there. Whatever you want to say. [00:42:05] Speaker A: More bombastic. [00:42:06] Speaker C: Yeah, more bombastic for clicks because it keeps them relevant. Because did you hear what Andrew Tate said? Like, you know what I mean? This is how you maintain a following that you. You kind of take the us against the world. [00:42:18] Speaker A: It's like, I know I give the sports illustration, but it's like the hot take artist in sports commentary. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Correct. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Just always says the thing. It's like, there's Skip Bayless, guys like that, right? [00:42:27] Speaker C: And occasionally the hot takes. Like, that's pretty interesting. You know, that's. That's. Huh. Yeah, I might go along with that. And then there's Skip Bayless has thousands, I'm sure of takes that are just moronic, like you can't possibly defend it. But hey, it gets clicks. It gets people up in arms and there's rage baiting that takes place. And I think those in that are in the online community a lot engage in rage baiting and engage in these type of things quite a bit. And so I think the more you're online, the more you're going to see the pendulum swing quite a bit, because there's a level of, of, you know, things being bombastic and a level of taking it too far. Whereas I think if you're in the church and you're really trying to lead your family correctly and you happen to swing the pendulum back quite a bit from the feminist side, there will still be some level of structure surrounding you. And that's where I think the other side can be a bit of a. You know, they pull on. You go, no, you can't go that far. Which is kind of what we were speaking to earlier. This is an interesting addition because, yes, it's very real that people will swing the pendulum too far. But again, I guess I'm beating a dead horse. But I guess my point would be like, I think it's a lot harder to do that when you're in relationship with people that can call you out on it. So mentors can be like, whoa, hey, we don't go that far. Birds, okay? You had me on the vaccine. I can understand where you're coming from. The birds thing. Okay, you're gonna have to tell me where you get that from, because that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You need that friction in your life. You don't get that online. You just go to Reddit and you find an entire thread of people that actually believe it and you go, see? I knew it. That's the problem. [00:43:52] Speaker A: No, that's a really good point. I think what's frustrating about it is because, you know, in my mind, we, again, we've got the right answer on our side. We've got the truth, the common sense, the logic. But we have to spend so much time, again, like, distancing ourselves from the overcorrectionist and saying, well, we're not saying this and we're not like, I'm just tired of saying that we're not saying this. I actually want to say that what we're saying, but it's because of again over correctionism and again, I would put this one lower on the list. But I think the reason I see it as a threat once again is because we have the common sense and logic side and yet we're not able to push it as hard because of people like this that just completely overcorrect because of the again, guys like fuente from a political spectrum, but even within the church that just make it very, very difficult to really spend time pushing the truth and pushing the common sense and the logic. And so it's more frustrating than anything else. But I think with this wave of Gen Z young people. Joe, I think your online point is really good that it needs to be more in person. But I do see it as a threat. [00:44:57] Speaker B: There's a debate that goes on online. Are you guys familiar with this? No enemies on the right or no enemies to the right. And it's essentially, you know, right wing. It is a political thing. But people in the right wing spheres of. I'm never going to disavow a person for being too far right wing that you know that they're still my teammate and it's us against the left, therefore I'm anything they say I'm not ever gonna. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Boy, that reminds me of something within the church, but go ahead. Sorry. [00:45:23] Speaker B: Right, well. And so it is one of those things where it's like I get the impulse when you're kind of playing team sports of like I'm not. Well, the other thing is I'm never going to performatively disavow if somebody comes to me and says you need to go say so and so. No, I don't do that. You know, I'll. I'll talk to a person myself if I think it needs to happen. And I think there are some discussions that need to happen behind closed doors or face to face, like Joe said. On the other hand, I think it's okay to come out and say I disagree with the idea that birds aren't real or whatever. And like just you can say what you believe. But I think it's. You can get into defending some really stupid things and also some bad actors. As we talked about the people who do the overcorrections, you don't want to get in a place where you're defending them when. Because all that tells your ideological opponents is they just need to infiltrate and make you look bad. And there are always people who are gonna do that there are people in the church who. Well, the people we've had to calm down. Like, who. Yeah, you made that point. And I'm gonna run 50 miles past you with it. Like, I didn't say all that. What Joe said earlier about, like, do you guys even like women? Yeah, we do. And you've got guys who are like, no, women are the worst. Like, no, that's. That's not what I said. [00:46:33] Speaker A: People who are anti marriage and such. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Right, exactly. And so I. It's one of those. Try to stick to the ideas. Try to address people brother to brother and say, I disagree with that. But I don't know. It's all very complicated. [00:46:46] Speaker A: If I offended anyone who actually does think that the earth is flat or. [00:46:49] Speaker B: That birds are government surveillance drones, you never know. They could turn out right. And, wow, we. We're all just. I mean, I made a moon landing joke on an episode one time, and nobody got onto me too hard for it. [00:47:02] Speaker A: So. [00:47:03] Speaker C: Hey, there you go. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Anyway, I guess that takes us to our last one. Joe, you didn't have another one? [00:47:09] Speaker C: No, not for sure. [00:47:10] Speaker B: All right, so my last one. This is one of the predictable ones. We've talked about it for years. I've talked about it since I started writing online almost 20 years ago. The church has not changed at all. Not come up with any answer. It's the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over with our youth dropouts. I mean, it's. It was the biggest challenge facing the church in 2005. It was the biggest challenge in 2025. It's the biggest challenge. 20, 2015, 2026. Whatever year you want to pick. Of my lifetime. It's the biggest challenge facing the church. And what are we going to do this year? We're going to go to camp. We're going to go to a youth rally. We're going to have youth group classes and gatherings. None of those things am I against. Like, you can get good things out of all of them. But as far as, like, really getting a hold of parents and saying, here's. We really need you to do these things. We really need you to be discipling your kids at home. We really need you to be drawing lines and telling them what's right and wrong and equipping them for that on a. I know there are places where it happens. I know there are ministers who are doing that, elders who are equipping for that. Amen to that. But on a broad scale, it's still the number one problem facing the church. [00:48:17] Speaker A: I'm curious, Jack. I love, I mean obviously passion point for me here. I'm curious. I mean this in the least insulting way possible. You've been around the longest and so I'm curious if you have seen has the church changed their strategy at all? Obviously I don't believe that they have changed it to what it needs to be, which is again everything we've already talked about so far. Hey, actually give them a Christian worldview. Hey dads, actually take responsibility for your families. Two novel concepts, but like from what it was 15, 20 years, like have they changed at all or has it literally been, you know, I used to again, last sports analogy for these two episodes, the guy that just wants to run up the middle every single play. The coach that just calls the exact same play over and over again. You're like, dude, mix it up a little bit. Is that what it's been from your perspective or have they tried to maybe try, try some changes, try this, try that. It just hasn't worked. What are your thoughts on that? [00:49:09] Speaker B: There is the morph from youth ministry to youth and family ministry, which is a positive step, but it was not. I don't think it went far enough. You know, obviously we talked on a couple episodes ago about family integrated. I don't think anyone's going that far and I don't think you have to go that far necessarily. But as far as thinking outside the box and really again the raising the expectations on parents, every time we talk about, hey parents, you are expected to return faithful children to the Lord. That's one of our most controversial points. One of the ones we get the most pushback on is nope, you can't say that. Well, because Christians think that way. It's because churches think that way. And since churches think that way, they don't even talk in terms of alright, parents, we are going to get you in position to make this happen. You can't force your kids to do anything. You're not taking away their free will. All those stupid things people throw at us. But like we expect this of you. We don't have expectations of anybody. But that goes with this as well. Like, and so as far as has it changed? Yeah, there's, there's been different flourishes, different, you know, techniques added to it, but the, the system I think is largely the same. I don't know Joe, if you had any thoughts of ways it's changed and things you've seen. [00:50:18] Speaker C: No, I was thinking through, I mean they, even from a digital end, I suppose there's now like church apps and such, but not from a. Even a digital. And I don't think. I mean, I'm sure there's church pages that engage in Instagram or even TikTok or whatever and do some fun stuff. Not on any tangible level, from what I'm seeing in terms of catechizing the kids. We talked about that, right? Like, you know, helping raise the kids up to have a better understanding of scripture, to have a better understanding of the gospel, how to defend their faith, things like that. Some churches do it really well. Some churches hardly do it at all. And that's one of the struggles you get in the church crisis. There's nothing passed down because we're all autonomous. And so church A has a great success rate of keeping kids faithful. They're not going to really talk to church B and say, hey, here's what we do that's going to help. Church B loses almost every kid they have and they go, church A just got lucky. You know, I just don't know. You know, that's one of the biggest issues facing this problem is parents and churches that don't want to take responsibility for losing the kids. Well, you got really lucky keeping the kids faithful. It's like, it's not luck. It is systematic. It was planned all the way through. I'm not saying by the grace of God that kids stay faithful, we stay faithful, things like that. It was absolutely God's hand. But don't think for a second that there wasn't a significant amount of time and effort put into this being case and work and everything else. So this idea of, like, well, it's just luck that keeps a kid faithful. As long as you're blaming something on luck, it means you're not putting in the effort and the work and the, you know, the consistency to figure out what is it that's going to. And the one thing that comes to my mind and, yeah, I'm young. And everybody goes, you guys are young. You don't know it. Like, okay, sure, we don't know what it's like to get to the age of working with teenagers and things like that. That is one of the most devastating thoughts I can personally think. When you think of, like, top fears in your life, things that make you scared. Genuinely losing one of my kids to hell is probably the top of the list. More than my wife dying, more than anything else, losing one of my kids to the world is one. It might be the top fear on my list. And I would say that performatively. I don't say that to Pat Myself on the back. I don't say any of this should be. I say it because it's exactly. It's kind of a no duh statement. [00:52:26] Speaker D: It's one of those, if you have another one, what is your other number one? You know what I mean? [00:52:29] Speaker B: Right? [00:52:30] Speaker C: Correct. But for millions, it does not seem to be number one. Because if it is number one, it is performative, like, and I'm not. Look, that's going to sound mean. There's going to be a lot of people that think that I'm a jerk for saying that. But it's like, look, if it's my greatest fear, I will go to no lengths or there's no lengths I will not go to to ensure that that doesn't take place, to do whatever it takes to keep my kids faithful. It'll still be by the grace of God. But, man, I will leave no stone unturned. Because the same thing that if my wife were in danger, I'd turn over the entire world figuring out how to get her out of danger. I think the same thing with my kids. And so the idea of sports on Sunday and anything that might pull them away from it, like, no, we're not going to do that. Bad influences, bad friends. Well, kids will be kids. No, I'm not doing it because my number one fear is that they might walk away. And if I see something that could potentially take them away, we're cutting that off and we're. We're going in a different direction. To me, that's common sense. To me, we lost the idea of, like, it's an expectation and it's understood. Of course my kids are going to go to church. Of course my kids are going to be Christians. Of course they're just going to grow up and have Christians of their own. Like, at some point, that was just an expectation among the generations. And somewhere in the last 50, 60, 70 years, we decided, boy, you're really lucky if that takes place. It's like, well, that wasn't the case for two, you know, what is it, 1900 years? That wasn't the case. It was an expectation that you'd stay in your local church and you do these things once you became Christians. Why did that end? I don't understand this. [00:53:53] Speaker B: There's a reason John says, I have no greater joy than that my children walk in truth. Right. And so I guess on a practical level, and you gave some things there for parents, but on a church level, to Proverbs 22:6, this thing, and if we're going to train Them up the way they should go. How this remains the biggest problem with churches. As we said, there hasn't been that much of a change in direction and again, definition of insanity kind of thing. Let's get a little practical here. What if we want to see this not be the biggest problem in five years? What would have to start happening today? [00:54:24] Speaker D: That's such a great question. I think the first thing, one of the main reasons why this has been a problem for years is because there has not been a how to taught. How do you raise faithful kids? Again, the list has pretty much been bringing the church and make sure they participate in the youth group. That can't be the list. And so I've got a ton of thoughts on this. Don't have time to go through all of them. I think let's start with the most basic level. Right? We just did a Bible class episode. On a very basic level, if you're going to choose to have kids classes, I think you need to have a plan. If there's a young person here from the time from 2 years old to 18 years old, you need to make sure you have a list together of what all is going to be taught in those 16 years. Making sure that they have not just once again the plan of salvation, the acts of worship, memorize, but they know. [00:55:13] Speaker A: The Bible really, really well. [00:55:15] Speaker D: If they're going to attend Bible class at your congregation, that's on a very basic level. Beyond that, this is where I think, and this is coming from somebody who's never been an elder. So I understand, you know, this is going to be very easy for somebody who has been to say, wow, easier said than done, I get it. But hey, we got to try something. I think elders very much need to first of all be so involved in the lives of their flock that they're, you know, checking in with their members. Hey, what are your kids struggling with right now? How can we help? What are some, you know, really inquiring into their family worship at home practices? What are they learning scripturally, biblically outside of, outside of Sunday morning and Wednesday night Bible class. But even beyond that, on average most 7 year olds are dealing with the same type of stuff, right? Maybe disobedience or disrespect towards parents or peer pressure or like, you know, little kid peer pressure. [00:56:05] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:06] Speaker D: On average, most 12, 13, 14 year olds dealing with the same type of stuff, right? Going through puberty and starting to notice the, the opposite sex and maybe getting Internet access and phone access and you know, same thing, 15, 16 year olds, most are starting to dating. Starting to date and all these things. Like I think elders need to have a plan of like age by age. Let's have kind of a. Here's how to handle these things from a Christian parents perspective. Here's how to handle when your kid gets a cell phone. Here's how to handle again, your kid going through puberty for the first time. Here's how to handle again, fill in the blank like X, Y or Z. And that's where you get so nitty gritty and so practical that that parents really feel equipped. And again I can hear it now, it's easier said than done. That's a lot of work. Yeah, it is. But to me that's what is rest on the shoulders of elders is no, you're not going to raise the kid for the parents. That's not your job. Your job is to biblically support them and help equip them with each one of these things. Again, like raising kids in the United States of America. Yes, all kids are different. They go through the same stuff for the most part. And so this is where I think, man, having some kind of again, I don't even know what to call it. Program prepared, whatever it is of like you give your kid a phone at age 13, man. Here's what we'd recommend. Here are some things to consider. Here's what we'd really strongly push for. You're gonna let your kid date at 17, 18 years old, man. Here's you know, whatever it is. And so again that's a pipe dream. That's one of those things that would be incredibly involved. But right now we're just not giving Christian parents any kind of how to on raising their kids. And does the responsibility fall on them? Yes, ultimately it does. But I think on a very basic level really being intentional with the Bible classes and on the, you know, least of basic, like most involved levels, give them a, give them a how to walk down path for navigating the, the challenges of raising kids. Discipline again, phone use, social media, opposite sex, puberty, peer pressure, like all those things as the child grows within the church. That's my very long winded thought on maybe some practical ways to do that. [00:58:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I would, I very much agree with that. I would get very good if I were churches at passing out curriculum for, for parents even to do at home, even if you don't have a class for it specifically. Will, you mentioned this word earlier. Worldview, how to build a Christian worldview. Francis Shaver has a lot of good stuff how shall we then live? Jeff Myers in the, in the homeschool world. Jeff Myers has a ton. I don't think he's just homeschooled, but he's got a lot of good stuff. You got, especially in the homeschool world. You got what's his name out in Colorado, Brighton or Kevin Swanson. You know, he's got a lot of stuff on, on worldview. So you go and you find some places and find some people that are developing a good Christian worldview. There's a ton of resources online. If I were elders, I'd have a really good resource that you could pass out. Hey, for new parents, we got this book, this book, this book, you know, this resource we're paying for this course for you guys to take, whatever it is. If elders were to spend money on their flock, equipping their flock with. Here's a great book, here's a good video resource. We've signed you up for this particular class. You know, to really help them better understand how to raise their children unto the Lord. I'd be all for it. We can support a thousand missionaries around the world, or we can really get into the lives of the parents and the children in our own congregation and invest some time and invest some money and things like that. And then I would set them up with a system where there might be, you know, an older person with a younger person and the older person would be in their home and helping the mom and you know, maybe an older couple and a younger couple and they can talk them through, hey, here's what we did wrong or here's what we did that worked, or, you know, that older person, the older couple would have to be aware of the shifts and the changes in culture with gentle parenting and things like that. And it can't just be, we'll do it our way because it works. No tangibly what works, what goes well. You know, I think that'd be huge to have some mentorship because there's a lot of young women that are looking for mentors that unfortunately I find a lot of discouragement from some of the older and some of the younger women aren't willing to listen to the older. So it takes both sides working together. But by and large, I mean, those are some things that I would look to start. For parents, you'd have to sit down and say, okay, if we were charting a path toward our kids faithfulness, what would we. [01:00:16] Speaker A: Right? [01:00:16] Speaker D: What's our plan? [01:00:17] Speaker C: What's our plan? Okay, well, it's going to be nightly devos it's going to be, you know, at least three times. Start three times a week. Can we do nightly DeVos family worship? Something along those lines. A couple songs. I'm just reading through acts right now. So we're into Acts 21, you know, and read a little bit. We talk about it, just discuss what's going on. We sing a couple songs, we say a prayer and the kids go to bed. Like doesn't have to be a ton, but it's something. We have a catechism. We pull it out, we talk to the kids about these things. And you know, we want to know that you memorize scripture. Jack, I think Will, you guys are even doing this, it's something that we need to get better at. We've done a little bit of it. But memorizing scripture with your kids, it's getting your kids to understand church is not an event that takes place a couple times a week. The church is the people. And what we're doing during the week is equipping ourselves for the worship times that the church is coming together to do or the Bible study times. And so you just take a systematic approach. That doesn't guarantee my kids faithfulness, but I'll tell you, it gives them a fighting chance. It sure gives them a shot at faithfulness when we try to make this our lives. We're praying with our kids all the time. We're talking about biblical things all the time. We've talked about churches and church situations and things like that on an age appropriate level. But this is something that gets brought up in our home a lot. That's what I would do if I were a parent is what is it? Where do we stand? Maybe you got some teenagers that it's off, where do we stand? What would we need to do to bring it back? And one of those things might be is as a parent saying, I've been wrong and I have not made this the priority that I need to and I take responsibility. We're changing course here and just owning it as a parent to your older kids, saying, I messed up, we're going to do better going forward and here's what we're going to do. Man, taking leadership like that would be huge for a lot of parents. So sorry, Jack. Will and I did went off on a ton. [01:01:54] Speaker B: That's all very good. I mean, because at the base it's communicating to everyone in the church. We take this seriously and we expect you to as well. And that sounds like such a no brainer, but really ask how often does that happen? That it's very clear to everybody that, hey, we expect you to take this seriously, and if you're not, we're going to talk to you about it. And so ways you can do that. I've said this before. I'm going to keep pounding this drum. The top of your church's prayer list should be the people who have walked away, especially your young people who grew up in the church and are no longer Christians. Why that isn't the case, I don't know. In so many times that obviously the sick list, they're important. The souls that walked away should. But even as elders, you should be in your people's homes, and they should be in your home. And it would go a really long way to go and visit a couple and say, all right, you know, how's it going in your home? You know, how's you guys walk with God going, as you guys said, giving them materials to study or showing them how to have family worship or whatever, and then praying with them, saying, all right, we're here, we're visiting you to pray for your marriage and for your kids by name. Are there any specific requests? We're going to take that. And it just show like, hey, this is really serious to us. We really want these kids to be saved. We want you to want that. We want you to help. We all want to be working towards this. And so we've given a million ways here, but I mean, it's the number one problem. It's one of those, if you can't solve this, we're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic because how much longer do the churches of Christ have? How many more generations can you lose? 50 plus percent. And so any of these suggestions of just again, making sure people know this is an expectation, this is the most serious thing that we do. And, you know, all the resources, as Joe said, mission work and all the stuff we put into evangelism, and then we just lose our own. I mean, we got to solve that. So it's a number of things here. Let's go over our list real quick. I'll give mine, you guys give yours. I had indecisive leadership on the first episode. I had being relevant, staying, you know, on top of current events, things like that, the gender wars, and then having a plan for the youth. Will, what did you have? [01:04:02] Speaker D: I had the generational chasm, just fundamentally viewing things differently. I had the continued growth of AI, of artificial intelligence, and then overcorrectionism were my three Joe. [01:04:13] Speaker C: I had lack of expectations, seriousness, uninformed mentorship leadership and political differences. [01:04:21] Speaker D: A lot of overlap, I would say, between obviously we all see things pretty similarly, but they each kind of carve out their own individual area that once again, as I said at the start of the first episode, we don't want this to be viewed as a pessimistic type episode in the sense of, oh, it's all doom and gloom. But no, like, let's be ready for this stuff and let's figure out a plan to combat and overcome a lot of this stuff. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Right. These are all problems to be solved, but you view those as opportunities if you're looking at them the right way. So a lot of opportunity here, lots to think and pray about and work towards and we're thankful for those who are working towards that. And yeah, we can always be better. And that's one of our main areas of emphasis here on Think Deeper podcast. So that's all we've got for this week. As always, you can join us in the deep end, get the exclusive episodes each week, ask us questions. Join us for that on focus+focuspress.org plus with that you get daily devos, all the teaching series, all kinds of extras in there as well. If you're watching YouTube wherever else, leave us a comment. And Joe, do you have something before we get out? Are you both the OMA? [01:05:24] Speaker C: Join us at Leoma on the 7th, February 7th. Yep. That's on Saturday. It's gonna be Saturday morning. I believe it starts at 8am Is that correct? [01:05:31] Speaker B: Leoma, Tennessee, nine. [01:05:33] Speaker D: But I could be very wrong about that. [01:05:35] Speaker C: Maybe it's nine. Okay, we'll we'll make sure reach out to us if you plan to attend. Reach out and we'll give you the flyer. Great congregation there. We've done some godly immense seminars. They're having us for a thing, Deeper Seminars. So join us there. We will also be so if you're in the area, please make plans to join us on the 7th. We will also be at CYC, so we hope to see you there. That's going to be on the 20th, the weekend of the 20th, 21st. [01:05:56] Speaker B: And that's the Pigeon Forge one. [01:05:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Pigeon Forge Challenge Youth Conference. Yep. [01:05:59] Speaker B: So we'll be there, whichever one that is. [01:06:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we'll be there with a folks press table for Think Deeper and then we'll also have a godly event table and so we hope to see it for for either one of those. We'll be right next to each other and yeah, look forward to seeing you. [01:06:12] Speaker B: I'm glad you remember that. All right. That's going to do it for us for this week. We'll talk to you guys on the next one. Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.