Genocide and Slavery in the Bible

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome in to Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilkie here with Will Harab and Joe Wilkie. As always, make sure you're following, liking subscribing. If you're watching this on YouTube, just reach down there and hit that, like, button. It's right under us. That helps us a lot. What we're talking about this week is we've been having a hard time studying this because it's very challenging. It's a difficult episode topic. And that is some of the Bible's challenging topics. The things that sometimes atheists will challenge us on. Sometimes we look back on and think, why was that in there? Why was that different things like genocide and slavery and polygamy and those difficulties, many of them Old Testament, but not exclusively. And so we're going to take a look at those. We're going to take a look at what they tell us about God, about ourselves, about how the Bible holds up historically. And so, yeah, it's one that, as I said, just preparing for it was like, this is gonna be really hard to record and I'm interested to see what these guys have to say. So any opening comments or thoughts from you guys? [00:01:10] Speaker B: Well, as you said, we've been studying this and that has put me on a few different chats, such as Reddit and just reading through which it never fails to bring out the dregs of the Internet. The very worst, but very interesting to see. Atheists and agnostics and those that are men use these as battering rams against Christianity and against morality and, you know, against God and things like that. [00:01:32] Speaker C: Jack brought up off air. It's so ironic that they're appealing to morality as they're trying to debate Christianity. [00:01:38] Speaker A: No objective standard, but they just say it's bad, it's wrong. [00:01:41] Speaker B: What are you standing on? But yeah, so they use that against us quite a bit. So we think that hopefully this strengthens your faith. Hopefully this, this gives you some talking points for those that will use this because they will use this against us. They do quite a bit. And again, in our research, we looked up a lot of different things, different takes. All of us were coming from different angles and trying to find different explanations other than the pat answers that we are usually given. Because I find that, and I go on, you know, on the Reddit and things like that, these forums I'm looking at, the Christians would get on and they'd give the pat answers and man, atheists would just take a baseball bat to those answers, like, you know, as we get into slavery and, well, it's all indentured servitude. Like, no, it's not. It's not all that. And so, you know, those are the things that we want to go beyond the typical, once again, Pat answer that we're used to giving. That's like, okay, well, let's just move on. Like, no, let's stay on this for long enough to do, you know, to do it justice and to make sure that we're giving you something that might strengthen your faith, that might help you with other people. But will. Any other opening thoughts? [00:02:38] Speaker C: Yeah, and I would, I would say, first of all, I stand firm as being very anti smoking. Even though it doesn't sound like it. I did not take up smoking. Maybe we're gonna deal with that on an episod soon. No dealing with some voice issues, so bear with me. But one of the things I wanted to say as we get started is the Church of Christ kind of has a reputation of being the back to the Bible people and the knows our Bible the best. Obviously More so probably 30 years ago than now, but I think still that's a big reputation that we have with that. I do think it is very important for us as members of the Church of Christ that we do not shy away from these topics. These topics are very, very difficult. These topics are very delicate is the word I would use. Topics are very. Can kind of be off putting, repulsive in a way to people. And so because of that, I was looking up some Church of Christ outlets and, you know, looking to see, you know, what do they have to say on it. And the answer was nothing. Very, very popular YouTube channel had about 25 videos on, you know, why denominationalism is wrong and why we shouldn't use instruments and, you know, anti alcohol and all these things, which is great. Nothing on this. And so this is one of those things that we might not have a solid like slam dunk. Here's the open and closed case answer for it. At the same time, for us to not investigate it, for us to not, you know, take a look at it, for us to not just kind of toss it around, I think would be irresponsible personally, because these are things that young people want to know, these are things that older people want to know, like does the Bible actually approve, you know, condone slavery, does it condone polygamy? And for us to just kind of avoid and say, you know what? Just don't ask the question. We don't really have a good answer answer. So let's, let's talk about Something else I think is pretty irresponsible. So I say that to say we're not going to have again, concrete, I would say slam dunk answers necessarily for this, but at the very least we want to step in and talk about it. Step in and again toss the question around and at least examine it. Because I think at the very least that's what we owe to people who ask. So that was my opening thought. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good stuff. And I don't know, do we want to just go ahead and get into genocide to begin with? Let's go to that one first. So this happens a number of times in the Old Testament. You have, obviously the flood is where everybody on the earth except for eight people dies. And then you've got where Israel is sent into the land of Canaan and you're given different instructions for certain peoples. The Amalekites utterly destroy them. And Saul is later gets himself into some big trouble and that he doesn't kill every last Amalekite. And you've got others that where that's not the case, drive them out or whatever the case may be. But there are some of the prescriptions that God has given them to go in and destroy everything that breathes. Not just the men, not just the men and women, not just men and women and children, but even their animal. Basically remove these people from history. And a lot of people will look at that and say, so God was commanding them to kill children. God commanded them to just it. We would look at it as cruelty and say, well, why, why wouldn't you keep the kids alive? Why wouldn't you keep the women alive? It's one thing to go to battle and defeat their men, but then you've got, you know, all of them. Why does an entire people group have to be eliminated from the face of the earth? And so that's something again, you see a few different times. So what do you guys think about that one? There's, there's a few different directions you can go with it. I've got some thoughts, but go ahead. [00:06:07] Speaker C: That's gonna be Jack's move the whole episode. [00:06:09] Speaker A: That's right. [00:06:10] Speaker B: All right, what do you guys introduce? [00:06:11] Speaker A: We all go first, especially slavery. I'll just sit back and let you guys have, you know. [00:06:15] Speaker C: Joe, my voice is not great. So Joe, you're gonna have to just take this one. I think. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Well, I think you did most study on slavery, so I'll let you. Yeah, just kind of, you know, don't want to step on, on your points here, but no. So Deuteronomy 20:10 talks about when they're coming up against the city, battling against the city, extending terms of peace. We. We see that peace is important where possible. This is specifically for the Canaanites. And yes, I mean, you see as you go into the land of Amalekites and things like that, but those in the land of Canaan, there are reasons the got answers. I think it is. Yeah. Or gotquestions.org does actually a pretty good job. They're not church Christ, but I think they do a pretty good job of some things. And I looked at a lot of different things on genocide, and this is the one that I found to be the most helpful as it really got into the judgment on the Canaanites for abominations. You have to realize that the Canaanite people are given 400 years to repent. Going back to Genesis 15. I mean, they have an ability to repent. Joshua, too, man. We've heard of what's taken place. We've heard of your God, as Rahab tells them, like, they also had an opportunity once again, to repent. These are people that are burning their kids in fire, you know, sacrificing their children. These are people that are. We see as Elijah on Mount Carmel with them cutting themselves and all of the ritual sacrifices and everything that they had. Like, we're talking bestiality. Crazy things were normalized in these cultures. Yeah. Just horrific acts. And so we would look at that. And if there was anybody on planet Earth that was like, normalizing these things, human sacrifice and things like that, FEMA'd have a field like, you know, you. You'd be going in and doing anything and everything. Like, the US Would be moving in and saying, whoa, we can't do that. We'd be taking over. We'd be. We'd be wiping out their leaders. We've done this before in the US Wipe out their leaders, you know, establish a new regime. We're gonna help the people. Like, we have different ways of handling it. Today that is how you'd handle it back then is you got to go wipe these people out. This is. From the top down, you go, well, why not the kids? Because when you realize a people group is, you know, this is a. They're a blight on humanity. And we don't like looking at people that way. But truly, I think they're a blight on humanity. And this goes back to the. This goes back to the curse of Ham, you know, with the sons of Canaan and the curse that they have, like, they were a curse on earth, the things that they did. And, I mean, I think there's some other things as well. I'll leave it open for you guys. I did have a question on nephilim and on crossbreeding and things like that, because I'm curious to get your thoughts, but. Thoughts. Before I come around to that can. [00:08:45] Speaker C: Of worms, I'll step in here. The first thing that I would say is, yeah, because that's a whole nother can of worms. I sometimes think then, when we're talking about this genocide question, destroying the nations that we don't. Sometimes we lose sight of just how absolutely wicked some of these nations were. You know, I think we. We can kind of lose sight that. I think a lot about the section at the end of Genesis 18 where Abraham is interceding for Sodom and basically says, lord, would you destroy the place if there were 10 righteous people in there? You know, he starts with, I think, 50 and works all the way down to, you know, 10. And God tells him, I would spare it for the sake of 10. Sodom was just that depraved that there weren't even 10 righteous people. And so the point that I would illuminate here is somebody that's asking this question about, well, how could a loving God, you know, promote genocide? All throughout Old Testament especially, but even the New Testament, we get the point that God shows mercy time and time again. God allows for. Allows time for repentance time and time again. We just went to a great Bible study on with some of our friends on a Tuesday night where we looked at Nahum. The point is made in Nahum. Like, listen, you had your chance to repent. In fact, you did repent with Jonah 100 years prior. God gave them a chance to repent. They did. They didn't pass it down to the generations. And so guess what? They had their time and they're, you know, they were now going to face destruction. God gives chances time and time again. And so you talk about Canaan, obviously, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah is another example. Like, I think sometimes we lose sight of just how depraved those nations were. I know that the children part adds just such an element of kind of, again, delicacy to it. Like you're saying that the children were wicked or were they accountable for their actions? All these things like the entire nation was corrupt completely. And that was just the point I want to start with, as I think sometimes we lose sight that, like, God gives plenty of opportunity for repentance. For, you know, turning, turning the ship around, so to speak. And the nation just keeps going further and further. So, yeah, that's what I wanted to kind of start with. Jack, Any, any thoughts on this one as we get going? [00:11:02] Speaker A: It came to mind Exodus 34, where God famously gives his character there, where he says in 34, 6, then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed the Lord. The Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth, who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin. Yet he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations. And so, yeah, you got to take the whole thing together there. Loving kindness and patience and the graciousness of God who doesn't leave the guilty unpunished and also extends that punishment generationally. And in our individualist society where we all kind of stand on our own, we think, well, that's totally unfair. And as Ezekiel says, the. The son shall not be guilty for the sins of the father. He's not saying you're guilty, but your consequences will fall on your children's heads. And Joe and I have been doing the devotional series for Focus plus through the life of David lately. And as Solomon takes over, there's the change in priests. And it says, this is a judgment against Eli. Eli's been dead a long time. Eli was alive in Samuel's day, and then Samuel is the one that anointed David. We're down the line a few generations. And yet Eli's family is being removed from the priesthood because God said that's what was going to happen. Because Eli didn't raise good sons. And Eli had kind of let Israel down. And we look at that like, well, Eli's dead. How is that a punishment against him? It is a punishment. When your legacy is tarnished, we don't think in those terms. We think, well, I'm dead and who cares? It's all over. No, the legacy that you have, if after you're dead it falls apart, that matters. God does punish to the third and fourth generation. And so when God comes in and says, all right, everyone in this, this nation dies, is it those kids fault? Were they guilty? No, they are bearing the consequences of their parents sin, which is to say, you don't get to be a nation anymore. And so, man, is that hard to see. Is that. And people will bring this up in regard to the abortion Debate. Well, you're against abortion. You see the difference in these things, right? Of you're taking an innocent human life for your own convenience versus this is a family suffering the consequences together. You think about even in Israel, when Achan sinned, they killed his whole family because it's like, sorry dude, you have brought this down on your own household. You see this in war times where a bomb is dropped on people. A lot of those people aren't combatants, but because of the decisions of people around them, because of their leadership, there's a, a headship and a distribution of punishment kind of thing that we're uncomfortable with. But it's kind of reality in human history. [00:13:41] Speaker B: There's also a level of false gods who you serve does reflect on the type of consequences you're going to have. This is why life is such a big deal in the gospel. Those who are connected to God have life and those that don't have death. This is a theme that has repeated throughout history. Even now when we talk about life, we think of it as an esoteric concept and you know, kind of this eternal concept and such. That was a very real thing in the Old Testament. Like, hey, follow God. You do have life. Because think about the gods that they're serving. We're reading through the Bible in a year and we're at Exodus right now and going through the plagues and whatnot. We just finished that and it's very interesting to see the plagues. There's obviously the well known thing of God attacking the gods. You get the sense that God is almost in like a cosmic warfare with the gods of the Egyptians and just dunking on them time and time and time again. Hey, here's the blood. The Nile to blood. And you know, the sun goes dark and with ferra and all of these things are like every God that they had, the frogs and such, and he just makes a mockery of all of them. And you can see that there is clearly something taking place behind the scenes with false gods, you know, the little G gods that you can get into, divine council and all of the Heiser stuff, Michael Heiser stuff that I don't want to get too far into. But there is a legitimacy to that of like these people are following extremely wicked deities. Extremely wicked false gods. Yes. God is also having a spiritual warfare taking place of like everybody that's following you is dead. And they're dead at my hands. And so he's putting, in my opinion, I think he's putting those false gods in their place. Like no more. I'M not going to let you have any power in this jurisdiction because this is mine. You've taken these people away from any semblance of righteousness. But the part that as we kind of discussing Heiser and things like that, the part I wanted to pick your brain on before we move to the next one real fast. I was reading an article a little while back talking about Sodom and Gomorrah and the strange flesh. And strange flesh. This guy was contending that that was them cross breeding with the Nephilim. Basically what's taking place in Genesis 6. The sons of God coming down to mate with the daughters of man. And that there's cross breeding taking place which was almost like cross species type thing, like it was not supposed to happen and upset the divine order the way that God had initially established it as man over the head and everything else. Well that went out the window because you're basically having a bunch of half breeds that are. And I think this is where, honestly I think this is where you get Greek myths of Hercules and things like that. Those are throughout history. Yeah, I think half God, half man. Those people did exist in my opinion. And somebody was making a case that that's connected to Canaan, that they were full of a bunch of half breeds basically with the giants. We know Nephilim are in the land, things like that. That's one of the reasons God just spared nobody is this is in their lineage. And I was curious to pick your guys brain. Get your thoughts on that. Have you heard that before? What are your thoughts on God using this genocide as a way to completely decimate any semblance of half breeds? You know, these God men walking among us. [00:16:38] Speaker C: Two questions on that. The first one would be Joe, just a clarification. 1. So we read Genesis 6:1 about that, but then the flood takes place. So is that the. Is the kind of the. The common explanation for that being that it happened again after the flood? [00:16:53] Speaker B: There's two different explanations. One would be that Noah had it somewhere in his line and it came through. The other one would be that it happened again. I take it that it happened again to some degree. [00:17:02] Speaker C: The sons of God came down, made it with the daughters of men essentially. [00:17:06] Speaker B: I think to a lesser extent, because we see the Nephilim in the land, you know, Gog and Magog, and we see those. The giants and such. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah, numbers 1333. [00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, number. There you go. Numbers 1333 with Nephilim. So clearly there is still a. Something happened again, whether that's coming through Noah and his sons down the line, a recessive gene or whatever. I don't know that that's the case. I would just take it that it happened again. [00:17:31] Speaker C: Gotcha. That's interesting. I had never really considered that. I would think I would have a hard time getting to the point of saying that's what it was every single time, you know, but as far as obviously, you talk about the flood, you talk about Sodom and more, you talk about Canaan, some of those other instances, like, could that be a factor? I could definitely see it. I don't. Like I said, I don't know that I could get to the point of believing that that's just. That was basically the default mode every single time that happened was all right, just go, you know, kill them all. I think it the more. So the default mode was like, these people are wicked and completely rebelling against God, so take them out, essentially. But that's an interesting element, Jack. Curious your thoughts on that. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a possible explanation. I don't. I wouldn't run with it as the explanation. But yeah, it's interesting that the. I mean, the biggest mass genocide events do seem to have a connection to that. And so that certainly could be part of it. And so I'm not going to rule it out, but I'm not going to say that's the only thing. The bigger underlying thing that is really going to be the case with all of these is when we read modern morality, modern ways of doing things into the Old Testament in a world that was a very different place, God was incredibly serious. God was violent at times. God was. His punishment was harsh. And where people really like to do that, well, you know, they focus on the meek and lowly side of Jesus. But as we talk about so many times, revelation shows that hasn't gone away. God has not done utterly destroying people. And so that's not something that God is against. That is not something that God has a problem with. And where you get the people saying, well, let's kind of stay shy away from the Old Testament because the world doesn't like it when we talk about genocide and things like that. I'm not out there bragging about genocide, but it is one of those like, hey, you should fear and tremble before the Lord God Almighty because of this is how he deals with wicked peoples. And that this should motivate us to evangelism. This should motivate us toward taking our walk seriously. And things like that of God doesn't mess around. And you see that Especially one, the Book of Numbers. You think about how many tens of thousands of his own people God killed, swallowing them up with the ground and the snakes and just plagues, fire consuming people, things like that. And so it's kind of funny that doesn't get brought up as much as the Canaanite genocide, but it's like man of his own people, when they were flaunting their idolatry, when they were being immoral, sexually immoral, things like that, that's what God did. That is the just punishment for that. And honestly, the question you come back to is, why doesn't God do this to all of us? It's only by his great mercy that this doesn't happen to everybody because of the sin that we have and because of the offense that sin is to a holy God. And so, yeah, does it come off bad, especially the killing of entire families and things like that? Yeah, it's one of those things that thankfully we don't live in a world where that's much of a thing anymore. Or when we do, we recognize it as horrific. But on the other hand, you do see if God is directly intervening, he has the right to take anybody's life by any means that he wants to. And honestly, it's justified anytime he takes anybody's life. And so, and again, you can say, well then he's being unfair by giving certain people an advantage and not the other. Well again, he took lives from his own people many times, but also he gave the Amorites, as Joe brought up earlier, 400 plus years from when he made that promise. That's why they couldn't go into the promised land. Why Abraham couldn't inherit Canaan was how fair God is. He's like, I'm not going to take it from these people and give it to you. They haven't sinned badly enough for me to be justified in doing that. The iniquity is not yet complete. When it's complete, then you can have the land when I'm ready for you. And so that shows his mercy, his justice, they had their chance and things like that. So it's one of those that on the drive by reading, oh boy, that's really bad. When you really get down to who God is and what man is and the wickedness involved, it makes sense. A much neglected and almost completely unknown portion of church history is finally given the attention it deserves. Out of the Women of the Restoration movement tells the story of the many women who helped the church grow during the 1800s and early 1900s, whether through writing teaching, adopting, encouraging, raising children or supporting their husbands. These women impacted generations of faithful followers of God. Angela Mabe has produced a well researched, easy to read and extremely encouraging book showing that you don't have to be a preacher to be important in the church. Each chapter has a series of questions for reflection, to encourage ladies especially to look for ways to serve the Lord in the family and the community and the church, all while staying faithful to God's commands. Out of the Shadows Women of the Restoration Movement is available on Amazon. [00:22:30] Speaker B: The last, last thing I'll say and we'll move on. First off, it has a trickle down effect like when Saul did not kill. I think it's the Amalekites did not kill everyone. They have a trickle down effect and they come back and they end up being a thorn in the side of Israel because they did not put these people to death. And so the trickle down effect was insane. But the thing I was thinking about is the flood is the greatest genocide of all time. You're talking. I mean there are estimates of 9 billion people on the earth at that time, all dead. Like, but we don't look at that as a, oh wow, you know, God's genocide. We look at it as the text tells you right there, all the thoughts of man was wicked or were wicked like. And so we go, yeah, see, there was no good non stop. What do you think is taking place in Canaan? The same exact thing. He's not flooding the earth this time. He's using his people to go in and clean house. We don't have as much of a problem with the flood because it specifically tells us what's going on. We go, oh yeah, we get it, we have to do that. But when it comes to these people groups, kids died in the flood too. And yet, you know, innocent kids. Yes, but they're the offspring of all of these horrible wicked people. So that God put to death everybody. And you don't hear that as a cry too often from the atheists and such as much as these individual people groups. And I just think we have to equate them and look at them as the exact same. Just because the text doesn't say every thought was wicked. That's what the wickedness. And Jack, as you talked about the iniquity being complete, that's what that's referring to. So anyway, it's my last thoughts on it. [00:23:53] Speaker C: All right guys, are we moving on to slavery? [00:23:55] Speaker A: Let's move on to slavery. [00:23:57] Speaker C: It's so obviously this is. Ma', am, this is one that's such a. It's in the cultural zeitgeist due to just a lot of the societal discourse over the last 10, 15 years. The anti. The critical race theory, anti racism discussion, obviously 2020 with George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. [00:24:17] Speaker A: And so this is 1619 project that America is a slave nation. [00:24:21] Speaker C: Right? Like this is something that has been going, I mean Even back to 2016, right when Kaepernick was kneeling for the national anthem like this. This has been in the societal discourse for 10, 15 years. And so let's just dive right in to kind of how do we explain this one? You'll have a lot of young people that will once again ask, so does the Bible actually condone slavery? Guys, where I'm going to start is kind of going through the different types of slavery that we do see in the Bible. There is obviously chattel slavery, which is what most people think of when they think of slavery kind of forcing people into servitude. Typically cruelty is associated with it and essentially these people are property as opposed to, you know, human beings with rights. Obviously this is, you know, what typically we think of when we think of the Civil War time. What, what was abolished. So that's the first kind is chattel slavery. The second is indentured servitude. Typically where those who are poor, those who are destitute, sometimes with enormous debts, would essentially sell themselves as servants or as slaves to pay off their debt, to basically provide for their family. That was their way to make sure they didn't starve to death, make sure they had a roof over their head. Obviously again, very different from the first type of slavery in the sense of like they did it, they chose it themselves, they weren't forced into it. And then the final one, at least in my research that was the most common was essentially penal servitude. Somebody was a criminal as a criminal punishment. And so the way they were punished was forced labor. Essentially you were, you were forced to work as a slave or as a servant. A little bit different than the first one, obviously a lot different than the second one. So those are kind of the different types as it was kind of already referenced by Joe sometimes just kind of the, the can scripted answer for does the Bible condone slavery nowadays is well, it was all indentured servitude. And, and so, you know, it wasn't chattel slavery. You know, it was all indentured servitude. That's, that's not entirely the case. I'll point to a Bible verse and, and then I'll I'll zip it for a bit and let one of these guys jump in here. But I wanted to turn to Exodus, chapter 21. And again, this is just to make the point that anybody who tries to say it was all indentured servitude in the Old Testament, not. It's just not true. And this is one of those that it might be an uncomfortable answer. Obviously, we've had an episode around June of 2023 where we just said, hey, this is what the Bible says. This is what the Bible doesn't. Or it's not what the Bible doesn't say, all these things. That's what I'm gonna do here. So Exodus 21, verse 20. If a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his property. That's in the old law. That's in the Mosaic law, and so doesn't sound like indentured servitude to me. And so that's. That's a. A truth that we have to grapple with. That. That was permitted back then, obviously. Again, I don't want to keep talking here. Get into the New Testament, the book of Philemon Onesimus as the slave. That. That word in the New Testament is translated back and forth. Bond, servant, servant, slave, basically inter used interchangeably. So, and those are the initial thoughts, obviously, we still have the explanation part of it. Guys, any initial thoughts to kind of the slavery discussion here? [00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah, my mind also goes to Leviticus 25. I just came across this for something else the other day. As for your male and female slave, this verse 44 of Leviticus 25, your male and female slaves, whom you may have, you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you, that you may gain acquisition. And out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land, they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you to receive as a possession. You can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another. So with their countrymen, they had the jubilee laws where they would be freed after a certain time. With the foreigner, they could acquire those slaves and keep them. And so that is chattel slavery. And it's something the Mosaic law allows For. And so with these discussions, one of the hardest things, we kind of said this a little bit with the genocide point, but it's especially true with this one. And the next point we're going to get into, we've got to take ourselves out of our 21st century viewpoint, which is a good viewpoint and I think is the blessing of Christian development of 2000 years of the world is in a better place than it was, and this is better than that. But on the other hand, getting out of the biases that that gives us to look at it from the world that they were in, which is a world where there was slavery. In fact, slavery pretty much is the worldwide human default throughout history. In fact, there are places where it's still basically going on today. And so that's just something that has been part of human life. Now. Why do we think it's so wrong? Well, because of what we've developed in terms of equality and rights and things like that. That's a blessing that we have developed that. But that is something that has to develop over time. And it did develop out of the scriptures, developed out of even in the New Testament where they acknowledged slavery. Paul a number of times when he says, Christian masters, treat your slaves well, he doesn't say set them free, says treat him well. Ephesians 6 has that and Colossians 3, 4. And so we've got to look at it. And the first thing is, well, clearly it was, it was a sin and God was just making allowance for it. That's not really what it says. God was. You know, we can again just jump ourselves into it and think, all right, this is 1860s America. This is a sin. And yeah, there's, there's a lot going on. [00:30:00] Speaker C: Well, that's just briefly before Joe jumps in. You read the New Testament. That's one of the things you see is that becoming a Christian did not nullify or nullify or void kind of the slave master relationship. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:13] Speaker C: You think about Galatians 3, 28. That's often quoted typically by Galatarians. But you know, the point being that there's neither Jew nor Greek. It's neither slave nor free, neither male nor female. You're all wanting Christ Jesus. That other stuff didn't get abolished. God wasn't making everybody, you know, androgynous. You know, he wasn't abolishing nations like, okay, we're all just want. No, those other things were still in place. Slave and master relationship the same, obviously. First Timothy, chapter six gives instructions to, to slaves to honor their masters. He didn't say, all right, no more slavery. Everybody's on equal playing like, he doesn't do that. Obviously, there's a lot of other place you go. Titus 2. Philemon, of course, is a main example. And so I just want to jump in there with that quickly to say, like, any read, any honest reading of the New Testament will tell you, like, just because somebody got baptized, became a Christian, obviously the church got established. That didn't immediately nullify the slave and master relationships that were obviously already in the world at that point, because the commands are given, hey, honor your master. Take care of your servant. He didn't say, all right, do away with it. So I think that's an important point to bring up. Joe, curious your thoughts on this. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, finally, even is obviously a place to go, just because that is the one. The one book that really is all about slavery is. No, it's not. But he's. Yes, he's appealing to Philemon as a slave owner of Onesimus. Talking about treating him as a brother. Like, he's sending Onesimus back on is wrong for you to run. But, you know, after he's become a Christian, he's sending him back to his, you know, to his master. And yes, he's appealing to Philemon to treat him as a brother in Christ and to make sure that he's doing it, but he's. He's having to appeal to him as a brother, like, hey, I've done you some solids. And so I need you to do me a solid and receive Onesimus. But that's with the full understanding that he has every right to punish Onesimus as a runaway slave. He just does. That is not taken away from the text. It is Paul appealing to. I've helped you, so you need to help me and take care of Onesimus here rather than. Well, why would you ever do this? It's like, because that's the way of the world. We have to, as you guys have said, we have to get out of this last hundred, 200 years of understanding. And look at. This is the way of the world for literally 5,800 years, up until everything took place in the abolition. You know, slavery started to take place around the world. This was life. I'm not saying that's ideal. I'm not saying that it's, you know, that we're not, as you said, Jack, in a better place. But, man, putting modern things on there, can you even imagine? It's like there are so many things to the ancient mind that we can't begin to fathom that were just normal to them. Absolutely normal. The idea of an atheist was, I mean, you'd be considered such a moron back then because everybody believed in some God. It was undeniable. It didn't have to be the God. I mean, there are a lot of false gods, obviously. But the idea of an atheist is a, a new concept in a 21st century lens. Oh, we've arrived. Like, no, we treat them as though they're stupid. We treat them as though ancient man didn't have it together like they did. They just had different, a different way of doing things in the world. And so, yes, there's a lot of different types of slavery and some people chose this. What we look at today with the 40 hour work week and a lot of times as you get into lawyers or you know, law school and Such, you're talking 80 to 100 hour weeks. You're a slave, I know you're getting paid. But it's the same thing as what they'd have back then, which is food, shelter, safety, you know, because if a slave under Abraham or whatever comes to Abraham, like Abraham's going to protect him from the surrounding nations and from the wilderness around him where he's going to die of starvation, die of dehydration, or die from some marauders coming in and killing him. So he has safety. Yes, he's working for it, but he's working for things that he receives. And in the chattel type slavery of what we have, there still is like there were still things that were holding them in place. To know you can't kill them, you know, beat them so severely. It does talk about, yeah, condones beating, but you can't kill them because then that's punishable if you, you know, if you end up killing a slave, but. And even the taking of a wife and I mean there are things like that that the text does speak to in terms of how to treat them. The surrounding culture already had slavery and it was horrible for the slaves. The law of Moses comes in and it makes their life livable. It makes them, it puts boundaries on something that was boundaryless before this or is horrible for them. So if you reframe it from that point of view, then the law of Moses saved countless number of slaves from horrible fates because of the boundaries that it put on this. [00:34:36] Speaker C: Yeah, that's an important point. Just briefly I was going to bring up is that there was slavery before the Mosaic law. So Mosaic law, in a way, Joe, you said it very well, reformed it and Added boundaries to it and added elements to where the slaves couldn't be grossly mistreated. And, you know, I think a lot about, you know, kind of the way that we view things from our Americanized 21st century, again, societal discourse for the last 20 years. View that's not the way the Bible views slavery. It's just not. The Bible doesn't view slavery with the negative connotations that we do. And the number one piece of evidence for that, you read the New Testament. What are we called as Christians? We are slaves to God. You know, if that's the, the worst thing in the world that we could possibly be a curse word of sorts, why is that described or why is that the metaphor that is used to describe our relationship with God being a slave to Christ? Romans, I mean, I got four verse references on here. I could have put 40 Romans, 6, 1st Corinthians 7, Ephesians 6, Philippians 2. Like Jesus, that word in Philippians 2, translated in my translation, is bondservant. It's the word for slave. Like that. All throughout the New Testament, slavery is actually presented in a very positive light. In fact, the most positive light possible because that's what we as Christians are called. Once again, if it was this heinous, worst thing that has ever been known to man, just unimaginable thing, and I'm not denying that, obviously atrocities have been committed along the way where slavery has entered the world. But if it was just once again, the most heinous thing that anybody's ever done imaginable, do we really think that's the metaphor that God would be using for Christians who serve him, who are enslaved to him, again, to use that word. And so it's once again, to Jack's point, important to take off our Americanized 21st century glasses at times and read the Bible from the sense of, oh wait, it actually presented in a much more positive connotation than the way that we view it today. So, yeah, I mean, that's. That to me is the most important point within all of this. [00:36:35] Speaker A: I wouldn't even say so much positive as just natural, as like part of life, as like just as a matter of course, yeah, of course there are slaves. And therefore I'm going to use slave as a metaphor because everybody knows that metaphor. And you guys now understand what I'm saying. And it is interesting, as you kind of noted there, that so many of the modern translations have gone with bondservant. That's not what it means. He's using the word slave. Paul was calling Himself a slave says, we are slaves, and it's because we have the negative connotation. But it really goes back to the concept of the individual that we have. And I think it's a healthy thing. I think it's something that in general has been a good thing to defend people's own self. But on the other hand, the Bible didn't view things that way. That's why God could take out entire people groups, because you were connected with the people around you. And if your people were conquered, well, then, you know, kind of like the Gibeonites, they make that deal with Joshua and like, all right, well, we're servants now. And when you're born, it's like, all right, well, we're servants to Israel. They didn't kill us. They we mean it, and we kind of tricked them into a deal to not kill us. So our lot in life is to be servants. What are you going to do? That's just how it is. And so it's. Man, you look at it from the lens here, like, yeah, that's not great. And we should try to free people. And I'm glad that we have done that. But then you also see in Exodus 2 and 3 where God hears Israel's cries. They're being oppressed in Egypt, and Egypt's mistreating them. And God deals with those who mistreat slaves. God deals with those who are oppressive toward them. And so he's keeping the score on that. And the slave owners were expected to act a certain way. And so one of the questions I'm going to put to you guys that I thought was interesting as I was telling my wife about this episode, Allison and I were talking about it last night, and she said, okay, is this situation ethics? Because I would say, obviously not just because of the law, but morally where the place we've come to as a society, it would be wrong to go. And all right, well, let's say one of the states secedes and says, all right, and we're going to bring slavery back. And they start doing that. I believe that would be wrong for a Christian to go and say, well, slavery is back. So we're going to start doing that now because of the development of that, because of how we understand individuals today and just kind of where we've come to as a culture. And she said, well, is that situation ethics that it was okay, and now it's wrong? And without a direct command, God saying, all right, thou shalt not have slaves anymore, or even there's places in the world Today where this happens and they haven't developed to that point, Christianity has not kind of permeated their society to the point where they're respecting individual rights to the level that we are. And so there's some wrestling to do here of like, when does it become wrong outside of just. Well, because like a Wilberforce, a guy that is pushing for it to be stopped does that on Christian morality, even though it was legal at the time. So legality isn't the determining factor. So I don't really know exactly how to phrase that question. You pick. Get what I'm laying down here. And what do you think about the shifting standard there? Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening. [00:40:00] Speaker C: Well, my voice hurts. Joe, this one's all you. [00:40:03] Speaker A: Real raspy there, huh? [00:40:04] Speaker B: It's all those cigarettes, right? Yeah, no, I. It's really difficult because I'd like to think that the. This is a natural part. It's the same thing as. And we're going to get to like the treatment of women that going back to treating women the way that they were would be going backwards. I think the best thing is to continue to let the reign of Christ go forward. And in the reign of Christ. Yeah, the idea that everybody has these rights and such, I know that's more of an Americanized idea. And that's kind of what we're getting against. That's what makes this question difficult is how much do we allow our Americanized, you know, all men are created equal rights type of thing. Like, yes, we're all created equal in the eyes of God. That goes to the end of Galatians 3, you know, 2029. On the other hand, we all do have different roles. And so no, in no way would I say bringing back slavery is a good thing. I think the world is better off without it. I'm trying to biblically make the case as to why that's not situational ethics or why that's, you know. And I would say having a world where every man is given a chance to succeed. But again, I'm trying to figure out how can I break my Americanized view of the American dream and capitalistic society and things like that, where I don't think slavery has a part versus purely a biblical society from the ground Up. It's really difficult to make the case because the Bible in no place condemns slavery. It just takes it as a fact of life. The fact that it's not a fact of life right now, I do think is a positive thing. If it were to come back. Yeah, I mean, I certainly. I'm with you. I'm not going to be doing it. And it's. It wouldn't we connect racism as well? And as we've said, that's not, that's not it either. So if it came back, that's what everybody'd be crying. And certainly we're not looking for that either. We're a certain people group or anything like that. So I don't know, you know, servanthood, if that were to come back, you already have some of those things, like where there are servants in the home that do certain things and what they get out of that is food, shelter, again, family, but they're servants and we look at it as different. Would I be okay with that coming back more? I mean, that already exists in certain places. Yes. So the chattel slavery. No, But I don't know. I'm him hawing here because it hits me so wrong is like, absolutely not. And then you go, okay, biblically, make the case for it. Like, we're past that. Well, past what? Well, all men are created equal. All men were created equal back then in terms of value in God's eyes. It's not like value is different, but everybody had different roles. And so how would you. Biblically, I don't know. That's what makes this a really challenging question. But Will, I'm again, I'm him. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Ha. [00:42:43] Speaker B: And what are your thoughts? [00:42:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I got a couple things to bring up and they might not at all answer Jack's question at all. The first one is the situational ethics thing. I think for the most part we want to apply that across the board. The Bible does kind of make it clear there are, you know, righteous deception or Rahab basically being commended for lying. Like, is there such a thing as situational ethics for some things? Like yeah, now for this. I don't know. Obviously that, that's, that's. I'm right there with you guys very on the anti slavery train here, if anybody wanted to try to bring it back. But the other thing that I wanted to bring up is with our Americanized view of things, we do posit and put forth that everybody has a right to certain things. Life, liberty, pursuit of avenues. From the Bible's perspective, what is the only right that we as human beings are owed a residence in hell. Like, that is what we. That is the only right that we have. And the gracious God of the universe is offering us grace to where we're not going to reside in hell. But I get kind of bothered with. It's the same thing with the evil pain and suffering debate when atheists are like, well, how could a loving God allow stuff to happen? Like, who are we to think that we're entitled to an easy or a comfortable life where nothing bad happens? Like, what do we, what do we as humans think that we have done to earn ourselves just this amazing life with no, no tragedy, no consequences, no cancer? Like, who do we think we are essentially? And, you know, so I would just, again, do I think that every human being should have, you know, living in today should have the right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness? Absolutely. Biblically speaking, human beings, the only right that is owed to us as a residence in hell is punishment for our sin. And I think sometimes we, because we're Americans, can get a little bit too proud of ourselves, essentially because we are the most technologically advanced, the most. We are that. We are the powerhouse of the world right now. We've done a lot of that on the back of the idea of, again, individual rights. I mean, why are, why is everybody wanting to come to this country? Like, this is a great country because of freedom. It's not really a right. And in terms of being a human, in the sense of the only right we're owed is hell, essentially, and God has taken that away from us. So I just. That goes back to the point of like, hey, even us as free human beings are in servitude to God. We are slaves to God. And so I guess I say that to say I think we need to be careful not to become entitled to certain things and become a little bit too arrogant with what we, we think we are owed or what we deserve. I don't, I don't think that necessarily answers Jack's question, but I do want, I did want to bring that up as an element of like, yeah, we live in a great country where freedom is, is available to anyone and everyone. The only thing that is owed to us is punishment for sin, and God has taken that away from us. So again, I just don't want that to get lost in this discussion. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an interesting point. So to give my answer to my question that I threw out there where Jesus prayed in the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That's what we're praying for and that's what we're striving to bring about. And that's not ever going to happen perfectly. We can't live on earth as we're going to in heaven. But on the other hand, as Christianity has spread, you've seen an upgrade in life to the point that it's like, yeah, this is more what it's going to be like in heaven than it is when man's running the show, right? And so all of the development, you go back to something like the Magna Carta and limiting the rights of rulers and the rights of the people and things like that, or you go back to feudalism and where people kind of were owned and just had to go fight for a guy because he said so. And things like that, that has slowly gotten better. And workers rights and the treatment of women and the views of children and things like that, where that's gotten better and better. And that, to me, reflects the earth, the Christian influence throughout society, helping it become more on earth. Like it's going to be in heaven, as I said, it's never going to be perfectly that way. And there's going to be some things that you're always going to have in place that you're always going to need rulers, you're going to need punishment, you're going to need courts and jails and things like that. But on the other hand, the more Christian a society is, the more it can do that. And it's interesting that as the world is turning away from Christianity, you're seeing some of this brutality coming back. You're seeing, honestly, some things that kind of look like slavery coming back and things like that. And so our development is toward things that are more on earth as it is in heaven. And you're not going to have slaves in heaven. There's not going to be slaves and masters in heaven. And therefore, as a society, when we can get to a place where that's more the case, that's a good thing. I believe grace doesn't destroy nature or things like that. But on the other hand, the brotherhood that has come out of this and that kind of thing is a positive development that we should not want to go backwards on. At the same time, it is a development. We went from there to here slowly, over the course of all these changes that took place, that got us to where we are here. And so to look back on, Jonathan Edwards is a favorite punching bag. Oh, what an unrighteous man, because he had slaves that development had not really come about. And you can say, well, they were contemporary people. Okay. But it was still very common at the time. And so looking back and judging them, I mean, if you're gonna judge him, you got to do Paul the same way for sending Onesimus back, saying, oh, you're contributing to this establishment of slavery, like, it just is. And now that it's not, it's a good thing that it's not. And it's a blessing that we developed out of that. But looking back on the Bible and saying, well, it was evil because it allowed this thing. You're standing on this side of the development, neglecting all the development that Christianity brought that got us here and realizing this was a thing that took literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And so it's a very complex issue. And that's not to say this is not an endorsement of it. As I said, we're better off without it. But, yeah. And so there's not really a easy, nice fit in the tight little box answer. [00:48:47] Speaker B: I really like that answer of making it on, like, bringing heaven down to earth to some degree and really making that. Because, again, it's just a tough thing to look at it. Like, all the way back to Abraham, Hagar was a. An Egyptian slave. Like, slavery. [00:49:03] Speaker A: Like, you can pretty much. He goes to E. Because how does he get an Egyptian. Well, he goes down to Egypt, lies about his wife, and they send him away with slaves and stuff like that. And so that's. Yeah, almost certainly where he got her from, was, hey, hey, take this woman with you. And now he has a kid by her, you know. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Right. And so this goes all the way back to a man that is held up as, you know, the father. Right. Father Abraham. And we have that all the way through. And so you're right, it is a development. And it's kind of. I don't know, it's like, if we were judging the past for how they handled iPhones, like, they didn't have it. It just wasn't. That wasn't life. You know what I mean? They had different struggles and different things and different morality debates of the day. This was one to yet take place. But, you know, the thing that drives me nuts is the same as with the treatment of women. Can you believe that? It's like, no, the Bible is depicting what everybody in life was dealing with. It's an ancient text, therefore, 5,000 years, this is the way that people did life. And then, I'm not saying it's good, but the Bible, as though The Bible is saying all of these things. Like, it's depicting what life was really like back then. Same thing with Wilberforce. Who do you think is making it better? Like, same as with women with Sharia law and Islam and all of the other parts of the world, like, they're not treated well over there. There. Go over to China and see how they treat women. It's in Christianized nations that slavery, you know, stopped existing, that guys like Wilberforce put it to, like, put it out to pasture, so to speak. Like, we're not dealing with this anymore. Same thing with the women. It is a, you know, a positive development of Christianity. So all of the atheists and everybody else that wants to just dunk on Christianity for that, like, no, no, let's pump the brakes. Let's recognize that Christianity and going back to the law of Moses with slavery, that's the only thing that kept slaves, that gave them any rights with, with Sabbath laws and again with wives and with, you know, all sorts of stuff. So man, we, we need to be thanking the, you know, thanking God for, well, keeping it in context, as you said, for grace and recognizing that we're all free in Christ. You know, we're all slaves to Christ. We're all free in Christ. You know, we're. We're all the same. Galatians 3, 28, 29. So that's a beautiful development of Christianity that the world had not known before. Christianity and before. And even with the law of Moses, that is a development that the world had not known. So God brought the developments along the way. Christians are continuing the development and hopefully that continues all the way forward into the future. So sorry, Jack, just to build on your point, I think it's a brilliant point. But fellas, we are at the 50 minute mark. I know we do have a think fast we want to get to. We still have how we treat women. We have polygamy. We have some capital crimes. We got some things we have not gotten to. And I don't want to go. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Let's go ahead and push that to number two or to an episode two. So to wrap this part, was slavery a sin in the Bible? And if not, has it become a sin? Just briefly. I'll put you guys on the spot with that. [00:51:53] Speaker B: I don't think it was a sin in the Bible. I think yes. Now the things surrounding slavery, the way that they were treated, the racism, things like that, I think was. Is a sin. But I, I don't know. It's. It's difficult to man contextualizing I think it'd be a sin now, looking back 1700s, 1800s, things like that, where it was just life and that's what happened. Yeah, it's really difficult to go back and call out sins for things that everybody in. And I know that's a weak argument, but for now, yes, I would say with the developed world and where we are now, of course, but I don't know that I would make the case back then. [00:52:37] Speaker C: No, definitely was not a sin in the Bible. Just. I don't think there's just any. Any way you can slice it to try to argue that it was now. Not to, you know, just completely echo Joe. Obviously, I. I would think it's wrong. I. I would not be. Or I would be opposed to it specifically, mainly as it relates to the aspects surrounding it. The cruelty, the forcing people into. Into it. The. Obviously the violence and rape that takes place, like, just because of that. There's so many connotations with it. I would also say. Yes, it would not be right today. [00:53:12] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, I was gonna say, what are your thoughts? [00:53:15] Speaker C: Yeah, you don't get to not answer. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Well, no, I mean, I said it would not be a good thing for us to bring it back today. I think it would be wrong for us to bring it back today. But as far as. Yeah. In the Bible, we can't say those people were sinning when it was something that was not just condoned, which is. [00:53:29] Speaker C: A really tough answer to get. I mean, that's. That's about as conflicting as it gets. And so that's why I do think, again, to my earlier point, a lot outlets stay away from this, because that seems like, how could you say it wasn't a sin in the Bible? But it is now. It's really difficult. [00:53:42] Speaker A: And I think there is a level of when you know better, do better. And. Well, and polygamy is another thing that you can just kind of see developed away from. And it was a culture where there were more women than men. There was, you know, the patriarchal laws that they had and things like that. That we'll get into that in the next episode. But, yeah, it makes sense that we developed away from that and didn't necessarily need a command to stop doing it. As we just started to realize, all right, we don't need this anymore. Function that it served. It was temporary. Yeah. So as I said, we'll get into that. That time. Things can develop over time like that, and as we know better, we need to do better. So that is a challenging thing to do. And As I always say, it's one of my favorite things is when people can look at something like this and be like, well, I hate what you came up with. Like, that's cool. You wrestle with it. Okay. Like it's very hard to come up with an answer. And it's very easy to say, well, it's just totally wrong. Okay, well then, like now we get to cross examine. So it's fine to disagree, but make sure you do the homework. And so we're gonna leave it right there. I got a quick think fast for us this week. This week I want to talk about statistics that came out by a guy named Ryan Burge. He's a statistician on religions and kind of the age curve of religions. And he put out one graph that was very interesting because one particular group stood out in this depiction and it was the churches of Christ. It was about the, again, the age distribution and the median age and all that. And the churches of Christ were essentially the only one on the entire chart that had a solid line all the way through that it had young and old. Now, I am a bit skeptical of it, but I could be. I know my experiences aren't universal. What do you guys think of that? [00:55:23] Speaker B: Can you share that on screen? Is that possible? [00:55:25] Speaker A: I'm trying to find it. I've got it here somewhere. [00:55:27] Speaker B: I was insanely skeptical of it. I was shocked that Church Christ was on there, to be honest with you. I mean, they did have a lot of different denominations and things like that. But sometimes I think we can get lumped into non denominational or whatever it may be, which goes along with community churches, everything else. So the fact that there was specifically Church Christ man, again. Yeah, ours is, it's not like our experience is universal. We've also. But between us three, we're talking hundreds of churches that we have attended that we've been to, especially Will, with you and your dad speaking. There we go. There's the chart that Jack just pulled. [00:56:03] Speaker A: Up where the green one here with the. You see that thick lower part is. This is the under 50 age. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Yours is hovering over the Southern Baptist, it looks like to me. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Oh, there, there you go. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I was really, really surprised by this one because I don't see us. We're. [00:56:22] Speaker C: We're narrow a section for us. Is the 50 year olds basically, right? Gen X, huh? [00:56:27] Speaker A: Yep. [00:56:28] Speaker B: Yeah, right around there. And yeah, because all the statistics have pointed toward us losing 60 to 80% of our youth by the time that they're done. [00:56:38] Speaker A: I will Say that that's not Church of Christ statistics. They're very, we don't really have it. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's in general. But I mean Southern Baptists are the ones that said they were losing like 88% at one point and it will show you. Yeah. [00:56:54] Speaker B: So man, they are toast when you look at theirs. That was, that was just as shocking to me as the church Christ was used to. See the Southern Baptist like, look how skinny that is up until like 60. So everybody from 55 to 70 basically is their main. I was kind of shocked to see that. [00:57:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I was just gonna say like, I mean it doesn't match with my experience. My experience, you know, is just my experience. It's my perception, I suppose. Obviously statistics are interesting in the fact that for the most part it can be fairly difficult to rely on them based on sample size and all that. So I don't know anything about this other than at the very least maybe that's encouraging. I don't know how many of those are converting to Christianity without, you know, maybe being unchurched, previously converting to Church Christ, I should say, versus are these, you know, just faithful? Been raised in the Church of Christ and are now faithful at 25. The other question that I would have is like, is these, are these just people who attend? Are these faithful members? Like obviously there's a whole nother layer to that, but at the very least on, on a, from the least cynical standpoint, that is encouraging that we are looks like miles ahead around the 25 year old range of basically every other denomination up there. [00:58:17] Speaker B: And let me just say this real fast. This was huge. This went out all over X. I mean a lot of people saw this because as you can tell, this is, this touches pretty much every denomination, every, every church out there. Christian Church, Christendom. Hey, this looks really good on the church Christ. And I did see some comments on X and people like, wow, church Christ must be doing something right. Let's take it, let's run with it, let's, let's talk about it. Because even if I'm somewhat skeptical, I don't want to be the guy that's like, oh, that's not real. Maybe it is. And maybe our experiences are just not in alignment with the rest of Church of Christ. If the, the rest of the world is looking at it going, the Church of Christ is doing something right, hey, two thumbs up. Let's continue whatever that may be, you know, let's, let's continue doing things along those lines. But this to me Brought more people into maybe a place of curiosity about us. And I think that's something we can use. And it goes along with. We talked with Marco with in between Sundays and about the necessity of good church of Christ content. This is why is because if the world's looking at it going, hey, what's going on, man? So that's fantastic. [00:59:22] Speaker C: We're over 9% higher than the next. [00:59:24] Speaker A: Highest for basically doubling everybody up on the 18 to 29 age bracket. That's incredible. Yeah. And I mean, you look at the 30 to 44, we're ahead of everybody else as well. And again, I don't know what to make of this. The one thing I would like to know is how does he do his research? Because the nominations are one way easier to research than us because they keep central data and we don't. And my worry on this is the easiest churches of Christ to collect data on are the big ones in big cities. And so those might look good because somewhere like Dixon county, where we are, which, I mean, this is the heart of Church of Christ country, and you've got a few big congregations, you've got a lot of smaller ones, some that probably will not be around in 10 years. And you look at that and the big ones are drawing the people from the little ones that are dying. And it's like, well, what happens when the little ones die and there's nobody else to draw? And there's an optimism here that I hope it's true. It does not meet my eye test. And I know I got a lot of comments and I don't have any issue with anybody making these comments, but, well, hey, our congregation is great. I love to hear that a congregation doing great here or there does not. And usually those are doing great at the expense of the ones around them. We were doing better when there were 10 healthy congregations in a county rather than three kind of thing. And so I don't know. It's going to be very interesting to see this develop if there's more stats that come out on this. I don't know. Even internally within the churches of Christ, we don't have people doing really good data work, you know, anything. There hadn't been anything terribly recent that I know of. So I don't know how he's getting these numbers, but I would love to find out. And I hope he's right. Like I said, I hope that he's right. [01:01:05] Speaker B: I do too. I'm almost just as skeptical of the 60 to 74 range as I am the 18 to 24, 27% for 60 to 74. [01:01:12] Speaker A: Like, oh, it's saying that we have as many essentially boomers as we do millennials. Oh, man. [01:01:19] Speaker B: Boy, I've seen. [01:01:20] Speaker C: Not meeting the eye test. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Right. I've never seen. And again, that's just our experience, but I have never seen that in a church where I've walked in and have seen just as many young as old or just as many my age, you know, millennials and such. That'd be great. But, you know, this is what we're working toward, is that this becomes a legitimate statistic, that we're keeping everybody that, you know, that the statistics are even better than this. And so, you know, we'll keep putting the pedal of the metal in terms of trying to do the best we can for the Church of Christ. And. But the fact that people are talking about us is we skew this statistic quite a bit because you're looking at going, yeah, that's about tracks. And then you get to us like, whoa, that's different. Great, let's use it, let's talk about it. [01:02:01] Speaker A: I hope it's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, very interesting. As I said, hopefully more research comes out on that, hopefully more data on how we got that. But just from now, maybe it's a reason for optimism. I really hope it is. So we're gonna wrap with that. If you're catching this, think fast. The full episode will be out on Monday about some of the Bible's difficulties. We talk about genocide and slavery. We're gonna continue that discussion into next week, Lord willing as well. So keep an eye out for that on the podcast feed or here on the FocusPress YouTube channel. And I guess that's all we got for this time. So we'll talk to you guys on the next one.