[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to Think Deeper, presented by Focus Press. I'm your host, Joe Wilkie, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Haram. And today we have a great episode going going up before Thanksgiving. Obviously, this is one of our favorite times of the year. We are incredibly excited for Thanksgiving. We hope you're excited as well. And so we wanted to discuss some things concerning family Thanksgiving, the importance of family around this time, getting into some traditions, a lot of other things. But before we get to that and before we jump right in, a couple mentions. First off, thank you to everybody who came out to Think Deeper Live. We had that this past or I'm trying to think of the time of when this come out a couple weekends ago on the 16th. And man, we had a great time. It was great meeting some of you. And so we appreciate you guys coming out. And it was great meeting all of you, I should say, not some of you. It's great meeting all of you. But yeah, we, we had a very good time. We are looking to do that again, though. We're looking to do maybe two to three next year. And so if you are looking to schedule one of those, if you'd like us to come to your church to speak on whatever topic we spoke on gender this last time, masculinity, femininity and just kind of the gender craziness, let us know. Let us know. We'd love to come out to your church. We'd love to meet some more deep thinkers and such. The audio for last weekend will be going up on Focus Plus. So if you are not a member of Focus plus, make sure to go to focus press.org backslash+ to become a member. We got all sorts of great stuff on there. Daily Devo is going up along with Understudied. We've been studying through the Pentateuch and of course you get the deep end and you will get audio from this past weekend. So if you aren't a member of Focus plus, make sure to go sign up. If you do want us to come next year, make sure to get a hold of Jack, jack@focus press.org I believe. Right. So email Jack and we'd love to get set up. But fellas, any other things before we outline?
[00:01:53] Speaker B: I wanted to say real quick, I just wanted to express some gratefulness to everybody who did show up this past weekend. And as I was think as I was thinking about the fact that we put out 150 episodes, we, you know, I, we were texting back in, it was November of like 2021. Of like, hey man, it'd be really cool. We could do a podcast together. And I don't think any of us had any idea that we would be still rolling, not really missing any weeks at all, 150 episodes later. And obviously the three of us really enjoy it. We really enjoy getting on and talking about these things and, you know, putting it out there. But I just wanted to express some gratitude towards those who, not just those who showed up, but those who continually listen to us week after week. And obviously I doubt you agree with every single thing that you say or the every single thing that we say and yet still value our perspective. And you still kind of join us for this. Really the goal with this is to have a round table discussion every single week. And so, yeah, just wanted to share, share that and express some gratitude towards everybody who enjoyed that enough to come out this past weekend. And then even if you weren't able to make it out, who enjoyed enough to join us every single Monday morning or every single Monday, whatever time you listen for the episode. So, yeah, I thought that was really cool.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Jack, anything you want to say before we just. I'm going to hand it over to you. You put together. We're not really doing outlines, so I can't say great outline, but you did send over some notes and some things we're going to get into, which as we were talking before the episode, we're excited about this one. But any other things you want to get into before you just take us away on the outline?
[00:03:18] Speaker C: No, I want to echo Will. Yeah. Thanks to everybody. Listens, comments, messages. You know, we just meeting other Christians is the biggest blessing of this whole thing. And that's why we did the Think Deeper live and we're trying to do things more like that so it's not just through a screen, but we might get face to face with Morby. So we appreciate you guys and yeah, stick with us. I really would plan on just keep on trucking along after 150. So getting into this week, it being Thanksgiving week, this is something that has bugged me for a long time. Probably 15 years ago, I remember starting to hear the, the late night hosts and memes on social media about, oh boy, you're getting to. You got to go spend Thanksgiving with your family and, you know, pass the mashed potatoes to your racist uncle and. And then the friends giving thing and friends are the family that you choose and that's kind of the people you really wish you could spend it with. And. And then you kind of start seeing this idea of actually for your own boundaries. If you don't want to go see your family for the holidays, don't like you've got better things to do and you can kind of pick and choose. And that, that really has become a thing and it reaches a fever pitch at a hall at the holidays because this is the time that family really becomes re emphasized. This is where we get back together. You might be all over the country, all over the world throughout the year. We're busy with work and family and everything that we do. But it's at this time of year there's just that expectation of you're going to stop and be with family and take that time. And we really do generationally, it's come to this thing of any tradition. Anything that we've done before, it's kind of why, why do we do that? Do I, do we have to do that? Well, like just because it's always been done, like we get to make our own traditions and we're going to cast these shackles off that were placed on us of these traditions that we don't want. If these traditions don't serve us, then we don't need to follow them anymore. And you guys have heard me rant before about the turkey thing. Well, I don't like turkey. I like rib eyes. I'm going to have rib eyes. No, eat turkey. I'm sorry. Like I will die on this hill. Because it's not about you. It's this individualism thing and it turns people against their families to think, well, you know, what if, if I'm not really getting along with my mom and dad or if I don't want to see my siblings or that uncle or my grandparent, the grandparent who's going to ask me, you know, how is your relationship? And that's awkward. Or you know, my family member who sees different meaning differently politically or whatever the case may be.
And it's not about one day a year. It's. This is revealing the cracks in the family structure and individualism and all these things that have captured our world.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Well, the culture and society has pretty well launched a full on attack of the family. And really the nuclear family, the mom, the dad, the kids, I mean Joe and I actually just. Spoiler alert. Recorded an episode for the godly Amen podcast about kind of holiday traditions and the values behind it and why that's important. And one of the things that we pointed out in that episode is think about all the, the like teen shows which I haven't watched a ton of them But I've watched a few and, you know, I know kind of the general gist of some of them. Parents are depicted as ob, like, very uncool, and then generally like, stupid. Like, if you. If you watch some of these shows and even some movies that are kind of teen and maybe call it young adult focused, parents are just painted in the most negative light. They're looked at as overbearing. They're looked at as they just don't understand and just, again, generally unintelligent is kind of the way that that's depicted. And I, I think. I think that's just showcases the. The culture's aversion to the family. I think parents are typ.
Is more conservative, holding more conservative values, which obviously kind of repels younger people who want to maybe, you know, push the envelope a little bit more. And so I think this is all just mixed together to where we have all these things that you just described, Jack. And it is very sad to me, as somebody who loves this time of year. This will be dropping on Monday, of course, loves this week, Thanksgiving week, as there's just kind of a general buzz surrounding Thanksgiving. But for me, that's all about family. That's all about the time that we get to spend with family. And so it is sad to me that people miss out on that. That that's not something that. That is emphasized by a lot of people when it should in reality be one of the most wonderful part of these times of year.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: So, Jack, I want to go back to a point that you made that I think is very interesting concerning the why you had talked about questioning things. We're always looking to question things in our individualistic culture. Look, we're. Think deeper. We do question things. We love asking why. That's. That's a big thing, big staple of ours. I will and I talk about this on the gym podcast.
It's okay to question, but isn't it interesting that every single time you go to question something that they go to question something, it always turns out to be what they want? Well, why do we. Why do we need to eat the turkey? It never comes back around to. Because it's Americana. Because that's what you do on Thanksgiving. Because we've eaten turkey for 300 years and like, it never comes back to that.
[00:08:04] Speaker C: The answer is never submit to something bigger than yourself.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Correct. It's always, well, why do we do it? I just don't think we need to. And then we go off the deep end. Why do they never come back around when they're asking why to tradition matters. And this goes to, you know, the thing that reverberates in my mind. I was thinking about this episode.
Props to Jack yet again. As we've said, critical theory. Critical theory. I think so much of this goes to us questioning authority, questioning the, the hierarchy of things. And anything that feels like shackles put on us, we want to just cast off.
Eating turkey and spending time with your family and putting up with some people that maybe you don't see it eye to eye with all the time is a really good thing. But because we live in a frictionless culture where, you know, we don't. We. I would rather attack you from behind the screen than show up and shake your hand and talk to you in person.
The. The thing that comes to mind on that, again, we challenge authority structures. And so we have all these hot rod young kids that think that they know everything. And yeah, sometimes I think that's what people think of us. But the thing that comes to mind. You guys seen those jubilee videos of, of Ben Shapiro and such? They have Ben Shapiro. They had what's. What's his name? Charlie Kirk on and so Charlie, the debate.
Yeah. Like 30 kids standing around. And what you realize when you watch that is they have no respect for anybody and they talk in person like they're behind a keyboard. And so they do these gotcha moments. And I think that's really ruining America today where we can't sit across from our crazy uncle who voted for so and so and have this conversation. We'd rather hide behind the screen and send out a text and say, I'm not having dinner with him. Would you ever actually show up with your. With your Uncle Bob or whatever and say that to his face? Absolutely not. But because we're keyboard warriors, you can't.
[00:09:49] Speaker C: Do the mic drop and walk away thing on there. Like you actually have to deal with.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: There's no respect right there.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And like you're saying these people are doing this in person, but it's, it's with Ben Shapiro, like they, they'll go home and never talk to him again. You know, with, with grandma, grandpa, with uncle so and so or whatever. Like that. That makes it harder. And you mentioned the, the shackles. This is. These guys are probably sick of hearing me bring up Rousseau, the philosopher. He caused all this. His quote was, man is born free and everywhere he's in chains. Like you've kind of got. If you just were allowed to go your own way, you'd be so happy and free and light hearted and all that, but all the social contracts, social obligations you have to mom and dad, your siblings, to your, your fellow citizens, to church, you know, religion obviously is chains that are placed on you. And so the more you can cast those off, the happier you're going to be. And people live this way. That's why people do the church hopping thing. That's why people do the. I don't have to listen to anybody who tells me wrong. If anybody who confronts me, even in the most loving way, they're offending me, they're hurting my feelings. I don't want anything to do with them.
Basically, anybody who kills my vibe, they got to go, they got to get out of there. And so that extends to family, that extends to this hatred of these things. And we're not saying it's not difficult. I mean, there are difficult family members. What the scriptural part of this we're going to get to is, you got to work through that. You've got to, I mean, grace, patience, tolerate one another in love. Things like that are very important. And if you never do that, if, if your life is basically, I should never have to forgive somebody else, you're going to be a really lonely, sad person.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: All right, so I've got a question here to kind of cross examine. And obviously I don't disagree with anything you guys said, but I think we're operating under the premise of, with the, with kind of this first section of the podcast. Young, young people, young kids, maybe young adults who are just kind of rebelling for the sake of rebelling or different political view. Like, they're, they're clearly in the wrong here. I look around at a lot of parents and kids and their relationship is not good in the sense of, like, before they leave the house, like, I'm talking 8, 19 year olds and maybe teenagers. And like, the parents are not doing a good job of nurturing the relationship with the kids when they're in the home. Kids grow up, go to college, leave the home, and then the parents are surprised when maybe the young person doesn't really have that much relationship with them. Maybe is kind of like, well, let me go put in my 8, 10 hours on Thanksgiving Day and then get out of there. And of course, I don't think that's right. I don't want y'all to mishear me, but I do. I would put some level of responsibility on parents who take an apathetic, lackadaisical parenting approach.
So I'm thinking specifically dads here. I think moms almost always try to do a Good job of trying to have a relationship with their kids. But I'm thinking of a lot of dads who are just kind of absent. They're again, their nights we've talked about before are spent in front of the tv. Maybe they work all the time. Maybe they just, they don't really have a relationship with their sons, with their daughters. If they do, it's very shallow. The kids kind of do their own thing and, and the relationship is just not good. I guess in my mind that tells me, yeah, okay, that's not a big surprise then that this relationship that obviously we think parents and children should have as they grow into adulthood and there should be respect there, there should be a love there. I'm not denying any of that. I guess it just makes a little bit more sense in my mind when you look at parents who are not. And I'm not trying to call everybody out, obviously I'm a very young parent, but I'm going to make it a. I'm going to make a diligent effort to have a great relationship with my kids and, and know, spend time with them and talk to them and try to really invest in them. And I just, I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of parents who don't and then are shocked when their relationship is not good as adults.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: Well, the 28 year old or the 35 year old or whoever that, that decides. I don't want to show up to Thanksgiving. You're exactly right. That didn't start then. It's not like this year, all of a sudden I decided that I hate my crazy uncle or don't want to talk to my parents or, or, and we look at, well, they voted for, let's be honest, we're not political on this podcast, but nobody is looking at it going, you voted for Kamala, so I'm not going to. I don't think that's happening most of the times. You voted for Trump. I'm not going to talk to you. You got university students and things like that that are very against it. And so they'll look at it at 23 years old and we go see it's politics that are dividing. No, they're using that as an excuse for a relationship that they don't have. And this goes to your point Will of that started long before they made the call that you voted for Trump. I'm not having Thanksgiving dinner with you. This is predating going back to, back to the home. If you were close enough with your kids and had really Trained them in a way. And yes, we're young parents. I'm not brow beating people because we'll see what you know when we get there. At the same time, I got to feel like if you're really connected to your kids, Lord willing, my son doesn't turn 22, 23, 28 years old and go, okay, I'm not going to Thanksgiving anymore. Because that's not what we do here. And we've established a tone in the family that, man, we love one another and good, bad or otherwise, whether I agree with you or not, you're still worthy of love. And, and likewise, I would hope they'd give the same to me. But it's almost like in absence of our love for one another, we are ideologically like our, our love is tied to our ideology and to our worldview. And so if it's opposing worldviews, we can't even hang around each other. Like, why.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Real quick, Jack, before you go, I guess I would just suffice it to say, like, I would put full blame on the young 26 year old who just says, I know what, I'm not going to spend things like that. That's wrong. That's the wrong attitude. I would also put a lot of blame on the parents that spent 18 years getting him or her to that point where they don't have the relationship to where it's not that big a deal to them.
[00:15:35] Speaker C: Yeah, this to your point there, will that you want it to be a blessing. You want it to be something that they look forward to. Like, man, I can't wait to go to mom and dad's for Thanksgiving or for Christmas, get together with grandma and grandpa and whatever the case may be. But if it's not, then you really need to. They still have the obligation and duty, like there, there are those two sides of it. And this is kind of the thing of like, in healing these generational divides, who's got to step up and go first? Well, both of them need to do their, their part in this and the parents need to reach out and reestablish that relationship like it is more their responsibility. But in cases where they're not doing that, the younger, sometimes the younger are going to have to lead the older and be the bigger man, be the one that says, all right, this is not a lot of fun, this isn't great, and start working on that relationship and point out some elephants in the room or whatever the case may be. And maybe not on Thanksgiving, maybe not while the turkey's on the table, like before, you know, maybe in October was the time to do that, or, you know, if you're going to see him for Christmas, maybe early December. Like, man, it really stinks that such and such thing happens. But you want it to be a blessing. You want it to be something that everybody in the family wants to take part in. Because I do think that's why people have gotten rid of it is like, man, these traditions are placed on me, but I don't get anything out of them. It's. It's solely obligation. And no.
No blessing, no benefit from it. And, I mean, that's our view towards kids in general. You go back to the boomers or the ones that went down to three, two, maybe three kids per household. Then the next generation had that same small house, but put their kids in daycare all the time and didn't see them. And the kids were just to be shuffled here and there. And you come to the Millennials and so on, they go, well, if that's the point of kids, I don't want kids. And, like, that's wrong. But you also can see the logical progression of how we got there. The same thing with, well, these traditions, right? They're not any good if they're. If they don't. Like, you pass this on and you forced this on me. But what am I getting out of it? You know, like, what? Great. It's. This is all for you at this point. Well, you don't want it to be all for them. But on the other hand, you do have a duty and an obligation. You know, people might go, well, is it a sin to not go to Thanksgiving? That's not the point. The point is, do you hold yourself to obligations to the people in your life? Or is it all my way or the highway?
[00:17:48] Speaker A: And what that speaks to is, I mean, I think these are the consequences of divorce. Check what you're talking about. My way or the highway? Every man for himself. This is what happens when you have a divorce rate that's almost 50% in America. And I realize some of those are second and third divorces, right? But still, we have an insanely high. I mean, one in three marriages or somewhere around there, are going to end in divorce, at least.
That is devastating. First marriages, that is. That is devastating. And what do you learn from that as a kid? Every man for himself. Mom, dad, did what made them happy. I'm gonna do what makes me happy. And you know what? It doesn't make me happy to show up to Thanksgiving and. And go through this whole charade is and pretending that I like you guys.
[00:18:26] Speaker C: A few years ago, it doesn't spark joy.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, exactly. Marie Kondo.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Like, does this spark joy? No, it's not about that. It's about the duty that you have to your family, the point that you're driving home. Jack. But when you divorce, you have forfeited the duty to your family. It doesn't. It's not about the family. It's about me and my happiness. And wouldn't it be better to see mom and dad in a better. No, no. It would be better for you guys to stay as a married couple and tell the kids, even when times get tough, we will make it through. When you divorce, it tells everybody in the family, when times get tough, see you. I'm bouncing. And then we get shocked that on Thanksgiving Day, times got tough, they didn't want to show up, and they said, I'm out. See you. I'm not going to show up. Why did we expect any different?
[00:19:08] Speaker B: This is where the proverbs are so important. As you look at a lot of those that are talking about fathers and sons and, you know, even the train up a child in the way he should go and when he's old, he will not depart from it. Similarly, like, you know, train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, like, he will not depart from it. Seems to be talking about the training, but you can make that application to something as trivial as what we're talking about here with Thanksgiving dinner. Like, he's not going to go his own way. He's going to return because you trained him up in the. In the correct way. I think similarly, of the child left to himself, brings forth shame to his mother. Like, there's so much in the proverbs about do what you're supposed to do as a parent when they're young and kind of when you have quote, unquote, control over them. And then when they get older, when they're adults themselves, you'll have that relationship. Because that's one thing I wanted us to bring up. And I guess I don't really have a question here, but, like, there is such a beauty in having a great relationship with your parents when you're, when you have a family of your own. It's one of those blessings that is just really hard to describe and it's really hard to appreciate until you get there. But, man, I, I could not imagine where I would be without my parents and without the relationship that we have. And again, I'm probably what I mean, maybe 20, 30. I don't really have a way to quantify this, but I feel like there's, I'm in the minority of people who have great relationships with their parents. I feel like most of the time there is a. Maybe it's a chilly relationship, maybe it's, it's just not a great relationship. Maybe there's some, some friction there. Whatever it is, is such a beautiful thing. It's such a wonderful thing to have your wife or your spouse who has a good relationship with your parents. Obviously, when kids come on the picture, to have the, the grandkid, the grandparent relationship there. And so I guess the point, the only point I'm making is like, we need to teach the beauty of this and kind of make sure that people understand there is an. It's an incredible blessing that they don't want to miss out on. There's just has to be a little work put into it from both sides, I would say.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: Hey, folks, I wanted to tell you about our new Christian book combo. It's two books available at FocusPress.org, the first is Sunday School Catch Up. It's 150 Bible basics for those that maybe didn't grow up in the church or feel like they're lacking in the fundamentals of the Bible. And then starting line by Dr. Brad Harib and of course by Will on that one as well, on the basics of the Christian life, of what it means to be a Christian, to be part of the church, why the church does what it does, some doctrinal basics and things like that. And so with those two books, we've got them at a discount on our site when you buy them together. A great starter pack for anyone who wants to know more about the Christian faith. So check that out
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[00:21:41] Speaker A: That'S the end of Malachi, right, with John the Baptist coming, and he says he's going to return the hearts of the sons of the fathers. There is a major blessing. That's a time of blessing. That's what he's speaking to, is it's a blessing when the hearts of the kids are turned to the fathers. That, that's a very unique and special thing. And it's interesting that the Old Testament would essentially end with that promise going forward.
If that was kind of like, yeah, take it or leave it is what it is. Everybody's individualistic. It doesn't really matter as long as the kids are, you know, they're, they're, they're okay. That, like, why was it not turning the hearts of the sons to God, it was turning it back to the fathers. Because that matters. Fatherhood matters. Yeah. Obviously you want them to be right in the eyes of God, but the Father's right in the eyes of God. But what do you see throughout Israel time and again, even if the one generation is right, all the way back to the generation coming into the promised land, they cross over the Jordan. Right. All the other ones have died in the wilderness. And then the next generation, you open to the book of judges, you go, what happened? I mean, the wheels just fell off. And time and again, it's the cycle where their relationship with the kids was not good, with their relationship with the parents, no matter how faithful. And so things just time and again go off the rails until somebody finds it again, and then they fail to teach it to their kids. And so there's a beauty, like you said. Well, there's a beauty to parents and children being on the same page. Yes. Passing down the faith. Obviously, we're big on multi generational faithfulness, but something as simple as Thanksgiving dinner, having the heart of the kids, where you show up and they are calling her blessed. Proverbs 31. Right. Like the children rise up and call her blessed.
That's incredible. That. That is a picture of blessing. That's a picture of beauty and what it's intended to look like. And yet how many people in America today are going to be very sad because their kids failed to show up for Thanksgiving? There's no blessing in it. And we could look at it go, well, that's the price of individualism. Then I don't what they're selling if that's what the price is. Where families are going to be fractured. How devastating, how depressing is it where we have to not acknowledge the elephant in the room because so and so didn't show up to Thanksgiving because they're ticked at us. That's terrible. But this all starts. And while I'm rolling Jack, then I'm going to kick to you. Well, it starts a long time ago. But notice where it really got bad is during COVID Covid was. Was huge on just rupturing families. And it's like, oh, you're not going to.
[00:23:49] Speaker C: I remember a thing where this lady was bragging that she and her siblings locked their parents out when they showed up to Thanksgiving dinner because they hadn't gotten the. You know what?
[00:23:56] Speaker A: That's horrible.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: I'm sorry. You are one of the worst people on the face of the planet. It just.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: It is unbelievable. Yeah, I Mean, yeah, it's just disgusting that we have gotten to a point where that's acceptable behavior. What I think we need to bring back sounds terrible. Public shaming. I think those people need to be publicly shamed. Or it's like, what is wrong with.
[00:24:15] Speaker C: Here's the worst part is her incentive structure was as such that she thought she could post that on the Internet and be a hero. And to a lot of people, she was.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: She probably did get applauded by a lot of people. Yeah.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: I mean, it was.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: It was divisive.
[00:24:25] Speaker C: Obviously, there were opinions on both sides, but there were a lot of people going, that's how it's done. That is what we got to do to these people. Like the. That's your parents we're talking about. But with all of this and the sense of duty and all that, I think about the Old Testament feasts and those things were to bring the nation together, but it was to remember what God has done for you. Thanksgiving, especially Christmas, like these, every holiday has that element to it of this is bring. Brings us together around God's table and God's blessings and all that. And it's a time of rest and family and love and Thanksgiving and gratitude and all those things.
And so when we look at that, I think some people kind of look at it as like a kid's birthday party. You know, we just. We all got together for Will's son's birthday party, and it's like, yeah, this is for the kid. Like, he doesn't really know what's going on full. He's getting presents and cake, and that's pretty cool. And you just kind of go out of the obligation to, hey, okay, it's the kid. We're doing this for him. You don't go, like, man, well, where's the thing for me? What about. What do I get out of this? Like, it's stupid. But then people grow up and do that to Thanksgiving. They look at it like, well, this is for my parents. This is for my grandparents. We're just keeping this tradition for them. What do I get out of it? Oh, nothing. Well, I don't have to do that. I might feel an obligation to the kid to go and make their birthday special. I don't feel this obligation to my parents to go and, you know, do something for them and make it special to them. It's like, no, no. This is generationally. This is a blessing that you have inherited that you're part of and that you're going to pass on and things like that. But the other side of that, somebody made a really interesting point about this. A year or two ago, Thanksgiving. Growing up, my parents hosted all of our Thanksgivings. There are a couple early on, my grandma did that is not passed on the boomers. And I'm happy to go to Thanksgiving. My parents, I'm happy to go to my in laws. They host.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: You brought this up before.
[00:26:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, they, they host into their 70s, they're hosting, you know, you know, some grandmas into their 80s are hosting. And it's not being passed off. It's not, all right, it's your turn to make the turkey. It's. You can bring the green beans and you can show up. And so that leads to that feeling of I'm just participating in this day that's special for them, like a kid's birthday. Okay, I'll bring you the green beans and like I'll just to keep you happy. I think there's another, that's another reason why there's this generational resentment of like, this isn't for me, you're not even letting it be for me. You're not giving me the duty of carrying this thing on.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: So just to, I guess just to ask Jack, optimally in your mind, what do you think that would look like? Is it a certain age? Is it a certain. Obviously, you know, you wouldn't want to necessarily like relegate that. But like in, in your opinion, what would that look like under ideal, optimal circumstances of, you know, the mom and dad host it for 15, 20 years. Because obviously you maybe, maybe you've got kids who, or maybe maybe got kids who have their own kids and they're really young and it'd be hectic for them, don't have a big enough house, whatever. What do you think would be more appropriate and maybe would kind of mitigate some of that stuff you're talking about about the 40, 50 year old still going to their parents house who maybe doesn't feel like it's. They're necessarily a part of it. What, what do you think that would ideally look like? I guess is my question.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: I think it's kind of like a lot of rite of passage kind of things. If it's a slow handing, you know, passing the baton kind of thing of you don't just call up one year and be like, all right, you're making the turkey, the pies and all the sides, like, you know, give them a little more, invite them over to help out, whatever the case may be. And again, it's not like a resentment, but it's like when somebody said this of. Yeah, it used to be passed down because again, for all of us, we remember as kids, our grandparents showed up to Thanksgiving because our parents were putting it on. Now our kids are going to remember it as we just went to grandma and grandpa's the whole time and they put it on. My parents never made the turkey. And like, there is not a rite of passage passing this on. Hey, you do this because again, to call back to the biblical feasts is I'm doing this to teach you how to do it so you can do it and teach your kids how to do it. Well, that's being lost. And that's where you see these people. I'm going to make rib eyes. I want to make brisket. I'm going to make whatever. Like, no, I think there needs to be a gradual passing off. Hey, you're making the turkey. Because that's what we do. And you know, year after year it grows into, then it gets passed on. I think that's how it makes sense to me. But that's. You just kind of put me on the spot with that one. Joe, what do you think about it?
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Well, yeah, logistically, going back to Will's thought and what I was thinking about, logistically, they didn't have a ton of kids back then, and I'm wondering if that also helps is they had a lot of two kid households and things like that. It makes it a lot easier because I was thinking about who gets to host. A lot of times the siblings aren't close enough to come to each other's houses. And so it's like mom and dad are the central point where all of us are going to just respect that.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: We're going to respect them. But let's say you host. Like, I'm not going over to. To his house. Why does he get to host? Why don't I get to host? And people get their feelings hurt. So it's just easier to keep it to mom and Dad's. I think if we had closer family relationships. And I also think this is why the blessing of the oldest brother, as much as I may dislike that with you being the oldest part of it.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: There'S like a family leadership part. You know, again, it's the responsibility.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Exactly. And I think that would be where it goes to you and your family would host and you respect it because you're the oldest brother. And that's just the way that it goes back to biblical standards. But now it's like, who do you pass it to? There's four of us siblings. And so why doesn't my sister get it or why don't I get it or whatever else? And then you bounce from place to place. Well then that's not as much of a tradition, bouncing from house to house. I don't know, maybe it is. But like, I think that's why it stays. One of the reasons it stays with the parents is they're the unifying thing. And a lot of siblings just aren't that close.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: I'm going to say something just real quick. Well, yeah, it's probably. People are like, man, they're way down the rabbit hole. This is really. Does it really matter where it happens or if it's turkey on the table or whatever? Here's why it matters. The same reason why the 35 year olds, 40 year olds and such aren't hosting Thanksgiving dinner is also the same reason why we don't have young people coming up in the church. Why we don't have a passing the baton, a training of leadership, why we're starting to have empty pulpits, empty elderships, things like that. We're not good at passing batons, we're not good at rites of passage, we're not good. Why we have so many aimless young men. Like all of these are the same problem. And again, it goes back to what Joe brought up in Malachi, returning the hearts of the fathers and the children and the children to the fathers. We've got a broken line there and this is one stark manifestation of that, that we need to heal. For all of these reasons, I was.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Going to bring up something similar. I saw the exact parallel you were drawing there of young people that go to church just because their parents are bringing them, just because, you know, that's just what we're supposed to do. We haven't doing it my whole life. There's no participation, there's no kind of partaking in what's going on. They're not contributing in any way. So they get, they get a little taste of freedom. They get out of the house, get go to their own city for college, whatever. And there is no attachment. Just like we're talking about with Thanksgiving, just like we're talking about with, you know, the holidays and kind of not really being all that attached to the traditions and the things that your parents have emphasized your whole lives. It's the exact same parallel in the church. It's the exact same parallel with, with young people walking away from the faith is because they didn't really have a faith. And so, yeah, I mean I would don't have a ton to add there as far as that parallel goes. But I think it is so pivotal to understand the. And what's so tough about it is it's such a fragile balance show you brought up. Like, you know, maybe, maybe the siblings don't get along. And it's like there are a lot of families where people are not getting along, where there's friction, where there is, I don't know, stuff. Stuff that needs to be handled, stuff that needs to be addressed. And in so many cases it just doesn't. And that's what gets us to this point where we're fractured. We don't get along. I don't get along with this sibling and this sibling doesn't get along with that sibling. And man, I really don't get along well with my mom or like, whatever it is. And I don't know, it's just so frustrating that a lot of it probably could be solved with communication, with a sit down, with a let's hash some of these things out. And those things just generally don't get done. And so you end up with these, again, icy holidays where you just kind of do it because you're expected to. You dip out after three or four hours and that's all that it is. And I guess what we're pleading with this episode largely is let's get back to really appreciating the value of the family for us younger parents, us younger husbands and wives. Let's get back to really valuing and passing that value on to our kids of, hey, this is what we do with our parents. This is what we do with our family. This is what makes it special. I mean the, literally, the, the. A huge section of the Pentateuch is God saying, you're going to get this land. Here's what you need to pass on to your kids, here's what you need to make sure they understand and just very family focused. And so, yeah, any, any thoughts to add to that?
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Yeah, we can't be idealistic and think that families are always going to get along like you said. Well, and this has been, look, it's generations wise. This is not one of those that every 80 year old has fantastic relationships with their siblings. No, but they were forced to deal with them. They were forced to, you could even say, put up with them, whatever it is, to the point that they're still willing to be around them. They may have disagreements, they may dislike them from time to time, but now it's like, okay, I'm just going to go to my room and be on my iPad for the next five hours. I don't ever have to actually talk to my siblings. And then they got their own stuff and they'll go do their own thing and get on their own iPad or whatever it is. And so instead of we. We don't get along, but there's still a ton of things that we do together that force us into this situation. We don't have any of those. So we're not painting the idealistic picture of you're always going to get along or anything else like that, or even that the. The son's hearts will always be with the fathers and vice versa. In the traditional sense of like man, everything goes perfectly. No, the reason we do this is because even in the midst of imperfections, we still show up for one another. This is where grace, the doctrine of grace, comes in. I think there's a gospel aspect to this of, like, you know what? We may not always see eye to eye with the church, with our brothers and sisters in Christ, but how many people go? Church is full, a bunch of hypocrites, and they never show up at church. Rather than going, I'm going to try to do the best, to make the best I can. I can make it. I'm going to do my very best. I'm going to show for my brothers and sisters in Christ because I made a covenant with God and also, you know, through my baptism, and also because I want to help them. I want to genuinely love them. We don't have those concepts anymore. And so we realize family is sticky. We realize there are difficulties along the way. We're saying, show up to Thanksgiving in spite of that, because this is the same fortitude that if you can do that, you'll show up to church in spite of all the hypocrites, and you'll continue to raise your kids despite the fact that, yes, sometimes they're bitter that they have to miss their Sunday morning game and they're ticked at you because the baseball game that they wanted. No, you shut up to church and there's friction there. And we just try to live frictionless lives instead of engaging the friction and going, here's why this is better. Because we don't have those opportunities. We run from every opportunity. We choose the path of least resistance. This is where it shows up the most, is what's the path of least resistance? Going over to my buddy's house and hanging out on Thanksgiving and eating rib eyes instead of going to my family's eating turkey. That's the path of least resistance. We've trained ourselves for this. So start thinking about how can we. How can we create kids that are fortified, kids that. That actually push a little bit more? Kids that when their siblings are mad at them, they don't just go into their room and, you know, disappear for six hours on end? Like, no, we're going to talk this through. We're going to work this out. We're going to live in the friction for a second as we're coming to blows almost, and we're going to figure this out. If we created kids that had a little more sturdiness, a little more fortified.
This is a big ball of wax, man. There's so many things you could get into, but I think that's a big part of this as well. It's not that everything's gonna be perfect. It's that we're going to learn the tools that keep us in the church when things get tough, that keep us in the family when things get tough. We have to start thinking along those lines as well. Not just the path of least resistance.
[00:35:46] Speaker C: There's this. The Stockholm syndrome of it. You know, the thing where you kind of come to love your kidnapper. The people are kidnapped by this individualism and think, man, this is. I couldn't do otherwise. This is about making me happy. And then we can talk about, man, the loneliness epidemic, the depression epidemic, the mental health epidemic, and all of these things. And it's like, where do you think it comes from? You love your individualism. You don't want to let go of that. But this is what comes with it. This is what follows. Not having family connection, not having family ties, not having obligation and duty and doing something that you maybe don't want to do or something that's a little difficult for you, Things like that. As you said, it's way easier to go hang out with your buddy. And so you do that, and then you're.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: You.
[00:36:23] Speaker C: You don't understand why you're separated from people, why that happens. And this is one of those. It's not. It doesn't need to be a grand conspiracy theory to separate families and. And get them to turn on each other. Like, this is just kind of what's happened. But I think it's what happens when people turn away from God is they turn away from each other. And then you look at what mass media has done, because I've heard people say, well, you know, teenager kids and their. Their parents all. And they never see eye to eye, like, okay, but it's way different now than it once was. Like, I mean, Will and I are.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: We'Re not talking about like 15 year olds here.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: Sorry, go ahead. Well, but it's not only that, it's even the teenager. The word teenager was invented in the 50s. I mean, Bob Dylan and your sons and your daughters are beyond your command. The times there are changing like that. That cultural thing came about to say, hey mom and dad, take a backseat. We're doing things differently now and you're not going to understand us. And the more the kids have been discipled by the TV and now the Internet and now the tick tock and YouTube and all that, Will and I are 10 years apart. There are memes and language and stuff like that. It's like, what on earth are these people talking about these Gen Z? Why is Ohio funny like that?
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Riz?
[00:37:29] Speaker C: Oh, he's got really like blizzies. Oh my goodness. Like, yeah, you hear the slang and it's like shut.
On the other hand, I'm sure they look at us millennials and I mean there are some bad styles and all that. And I know, you know, the people years older than us. Oh yeah. And I mean we had some real bad ones back in like 0405 and that range that everyone wearing two or three T shirts at a time, I mean, it was just weird, weird stuff going on. But every generation we're talking like five year segments. Like used to be a 20 or 30 year generation gap and now it's a five year generation gap. It's insane. And so this leads to less connection, less all that. And we live through the Internet and all these things happen. And then it's no wonder we can't connect with grandma and grandpa. And it's no wonder we don't see eye to eye culturally and socially with mom and dad. And then we think, well, that means I don't have to be around them. Like maybe get a little bit less online, maybe get a little bit closer to them, as you said, have the hard conversations, spend the time, put the phone down, talk to, you know, people that aren't your age, people that aren't speaking the same goofy language as you are listening to the same music or whatever else and come back together just a little bit.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: If I asked Jack to define like five of the Gen Z terms, he probably would have no idea.
Actually you're on social media a lot, so you probably would.
[00:38:41] Speaker C: I try and keep up as much as I can, but there's some of it I'm like, what are they doing? I mean the haircuts, it's, it's, it's bad, man. It's pretty dire. But, well, that just leads to this disconnect for sure.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: The only thing I was going to add is I definitely would agree with the point that screens, technology, social media and mainly for kids, it's more so just the screen has crippled us quite a bit. Like, I see kids who, you know, I work for Chick Fil A. I have so many great team members, employees that work for us that are, you know, between the ages of like 15 and you know, 18, 19.
I there, you know, there's some people that have come in for an interview or people are, that, I'm like, you can't carry on a legitimate conversation. Like you literally are unable to carry on a conversation with somebody who is not in your age bracket about, you know, whatever the, the latest fad is or whatever. And I do think that is a product of screens. You know, the iPad kid phrase is thrown around quite a bit and that's more Gen Alpha than Gen Z. But I do think that is, that is getting us to a point where kids are not able to sit through a job interview because they don't know how to really talk to adults. Kids are not able specifically to talk to their grandparents who aren't going to understand all their terms, who aren't going to know who all the latest celebrities are. Latest celebrities are and who aren't going to be able to, you know, like they're going to sit there like, what do we talk about? You know, I don't have anything to talk about with them. And I do, I, I do blame that largely on parents who are, you know, putting the iPad in front of their kids and letting them kind of be these, these screen addicts, but also who don't kind of force them to have these conversations with people who are outside of their age bracket. I mean, that's something my parents did a really good job of is they kind of forced us, hey, you're going to talk to this older person. Like you're going to go make sure that you say hello and that you're able to converse with 40 and 50 year olds instead of just 14 and 15 year olds when we were that age. And so yeah, I mean, I would just add to your point that I think the screen ager iPad kid phase that we are in is adding to this and I think it's crippling kids there.
[00:40:38] Speaker C: Also, just briefly is it helps people understand what matters. Like, I'm sorry, the, the high score on the latest Roblox game doesn't matter all that much. I mean like it's, it's cool to have your thing as a, as a 12 year old or whatever like that you're into. That's great. Who Taylor Swift is dating doesn't matter. All these things you're like, well, generationally. We just, we're not speaking the same language. Yeah, you kind of learn. Okay, Grandpa doesn't know who Travis Kelsey is. That's okay. He and I can talk about things that matter, like our family, like our history, like Thanksgiving, like our, you know, the, our Christianity, our religion, things like that, like having real conversations. Because when we're only talking to people our own age, it's always day to day. It's all this ephemeral garbage that passes across the timeline on social media. It doesn't matter. And so again, then we're aimless, then we're disconnected.
Hey guys, Jack Wilkie here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: And this is where the grandparent parental divide, I talked about the divorce, the grandparent parental divide really comes in of. Well, we don't do that, you know, because grandpa so and so Grandpa John is just a, you know, he's a racist or he's whatever else. And you spend all your time demonizing your parents or demonizing the generation above you. What do you expect? Do you expect that your kids are going to go, yeah, I know you say that they, that they stink, but I'm going to be the one that, that crosses the divide. And so my 7 year old is going to go have a relationship with his grandpa, even though I don't. Come on, come on. Of course he's not. So we spend a lot of time demonizing the ones above. And look, obviously we're, that's, that's something we talk about a lot. Yes, we grow frustrated with the older generation. They bear a lot of this responsibility. At the same time, as parents, we have to make sure that, you know, the Shema, as you look at Deuteronomy 6, this is multi generational. This is the grandparents being just as involved and the parents being okay with it. But somewhere along the way, the parents started to think, I'm smarter than my parents and my parents spanked me. And that was the worst trauma in the entire world. Even Though I hold a successful job, I have a family with multiple kids, I own a home. I do all of these things, somehow I get by in society just fine. My kid, I have to show up and sit in the job interview with my kid who can't hold a conversation and look somebody in the eye. And somehow I did a better job because I didn't spank my kid. Are you kidding me? Like you were the one that is inflicting trauma on your kid because he's not prepared for the world. Yes, your parents are mean. Yes, your parents may have done some different stuff. And I'm not talking about those who were genuinely abused. I'm talking about all the people who had mean parents. It's like somehow you turned out fine in the world and you say, I'm not fine. I'm in therapy. Okay? That's your choice. At the end of the day, your kid can't hold a conversation with somebody that's not his age or without sticking an iPad in front of him. Who, who's worse off here? Who's worse off? I've been reading Bad Therapy from Abigail Schreier and my goodness, that's just an absolute depressing book. As you look at the, the generation will like you're talking about the kids that just can't get by and having their mom and dad show up, specifically the mom show up to the job interviews and such. And she makes the point.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: I, I had a, just real quick to add to this.
We had a, this, this young lady had to be 16 or 17.
Her mom got on her phone to text us that she was quitting her job, 16 year old girl. And had to get her mom to let, let us know that she would. No, no two week notice, nothing that she was quitting her job. I told our fellow leaders, I was like, if I ever get on my kid's phone to text their boss that they're quitting, y'all, please slap me in the face. Like, that's right. That's just unbelievable.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: So she makes the point in the book that in Israel, I think it's in Israel, if you show up for the army, you know, to, to enlist, they will always ask you, where did you. So they do two different things. She said sometimes they give you the wrong address just to see, like, what do you do in moments of stress as you're, you know, getting ready. The other thing is they will ask, how did you get here? And if you say, my mom drove me, they will deny your application. You're not allowed. You have to Figure out how to get there on your own. It's like, man, somebody is looking at it saying the next generation's got to figure out some things on their own. We do not in this is part of the issues. You have a lot of, we call them snowflakes, right? You have a lot of kids that just cannot get by in life, in, in any way. And meanwhile we're demonizing the older generation that yeah, they were harsh and they were not always great. And I think that they did a lot of poor things and they're the ones that really started the, the divorce epidemic that created all these issues. At the same time, we as parents have to be very young parents have to be very careful that we do not turn the grand parents away from the grandkids and vice versa in this. But this also brings on and Jack, I want to kick actually either one of you off on this because I'm a therapist. And so it's, it's a little, a little too close to home, I suppose for me. But I will say I think a lot of this has to do with therapy culture. The more that we get into therapy, the more we start talking about boundaries, the more we start talking about toxic people and narcissists and abusing all of the DSM 5 terms and everything else and slinging them as though they have like, we can call everybody narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, as though we know what this actually is.
We throw these things around and I think that's what's dividing this nation quite a bit as well. I'm curious your guys thoughts on that because I'm coming from the inside and I look at it as we have a lot of problems in the therapy world, but that's me and I'm pro therapy. I know you guys are not. So I suppose I'll tee you off on where do you think therapy enters into this discussion of families that are at war with one another?
[00:46:10] Speaker C: Well, I think sometimes people look at and go, well I never went to therapy. I haven't had that experience. So it's not that, but it's the way it has bled into culture. Like you say, people that have no experience with therapy or therapists speaking that language and things like that. There was a New Yorker headline a couple months ago, New Yorker magazine why so many people are going no contact with their parents. And the tweet that went along with it said family estrangement is still somewhat taboo, but in some circles that's changing. Anna Russell reports on the growing movement that Wants to destigmatize, severing ties with parents. Destigmatize. There's your therapy connection. They're saying that we want or that and normalize words like that of people think it's bad, but we're going to let you know it's okay that you do this. It's, you know, you're fine and you've got your boundaries and things like that. And there is an extremely narrow set of times in which, yeah, there's probably some people you need. I know some people whose parents and. Or their grandparents, like family members, have done really awful things to them. Where you do need a distance, almost like a legal distance, like, almost like a. What's the term? The.
Where they gotta stay away from. Yes, thank you. Like people that have had. That's gotten to that level. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, man, we don't get along very well, man. We've got some water under the bridge stuff like that. And they're just saying, yeah, we need to destigmatize, severing ties with your parents. And I remember seeing a clip of a comedian as Shane Gillis, which I'm not going to recommend. He's. He's got a lot of language. But it was an interview where they said something about therapy and he said, oh, I went to therapy for a while. I said, did you like it? He said, no, I hated it. All the guy tried to do is get me to hate my dad and like, trying to blame everything on his parents and talk about all the ways they had messed him up. And he's like, but I love my dad. And like. And so he's like, I quit. Because that's all the guy was wanting to talk about, is the ways my dad messed me up.
And that's the thing we've got to deal with, is you have imperfect parents that. What do you do with that in this world? Because the other thing is we can just draw this line all the way back to Adam. I mean, we can draw this like, hey, thanks, Adam and Eve, way to go. Like, you got us here. We can put blame on them, but that doesn't absolve us, that doesn't disconnect us from them, bloodline duty wise. Anything else. Like, and the same with your own parents, grandparents and all that. And I do think the therapy, protect yourself first, culture, boundaries, all that stuff says, let's not think about your duty to your parents first. Let's think about your own happiness first. And as we said earlier, that's the Stockholm syndrome of you're stuck pursuing your own happiness and it's killing you.
[00:48:36] Speaker B: So I don't, I don't have a lot of exp, A lot of, I don't have hardly any experience with therapy other than talking to Joe. And you know, he very knowledgeable in that. In our conversations, it's pretty much my only experience with therapy. And so I might be off base on this, but I think my observation would be the way this contributes to it is let's say there is friction or let's say there's a problem with somebody and their parents.
From my experience, a lot of therapy teaches or, or would push somebody to. Instead of looking inward to figure out, okay, maybe what am I doing to contribute to this problem? It's looking outward. What are they doing to contribute to the problem? What are all the reasons they're toxic? What are all the reasons then? And that's just, man, you shouldn't, you shouldn't have to put up with that and boundaries and all these things. I don't see a lot of personal responsibility and this is kind of a human nature thing. When there is conflicts to look at, what's the other person done? You know, I just can't believe they've done that. And they, if, man, if they just clean their act up in this area, then we would get along and it's all them, them, them I do. Again, my just plain observations would be, I feel like therapy is adding to that where you're not looking inward, you're not looking to say, you know what, I've got a bad relationship with my parents. I'm sure they've done some things to contribute to that. But what am I currently doing right now to contribute to that? What have I done in the last six months to contribute to that? And I think that's a healthy perspective that we need to get used to doing. Anytime there is conflict, you know, there might be some times where the conflict is all one sided and there's not really much you can do to help the friction or to help the conflict. Typically that's not the case. Typically it is going both ways and there's something you can be doing. And so yeah, Joe, to answer your question, again, that'd be the only thing that I would say is I feel like sometimes therapy teaches you to not look inward quite as much at what you're doing to contribute to the problem. And more so. Well, you know what, just your parents that they did things this way and that's what got you to this point and you know, the only thing you can. Like there's not much self reflection I guess is kind of what I'm getting. Obviously not the case with your therapy, I'm sure. But in many other circles, I think.
[00:50:30] Speaker C: Let me say one other thing. I think that's a great point. Therapy cannot help somebody if it is, if it goes against a basic biblical truth. And that doesn't mean like it all has to be like you have to have a Bible verse for everything you say in therapy. But if you are subverting the reality of man's sin, if you're subverting our design, if you're subverting what will saying about our responsibility, things like that, basic biblical things that God has given us, like building blocks of understanding anthropology, if, when. And I think so much of popular therapy basically throws that out the window. And that's why it's so unhelpful. Like you have to have those building blocks in place. And yeah, you're going to expand on that with strategies and with things like that that you use. But if it goes against that, it won't work.
[00:51:13] Speaker A: So I do have some clients that think that I'm trying to just get them to hate their parents. We will go back and discuss context. Nobody comes to where they are today. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. Parents do bear some of the responsibility. I don't like the term blame. I like responsibility. Responsibility on appropriate shoulders. A lot of that's going to go to you and a lot of that's going to go to them. But what I say is, you know, we're on two sides of the spectrum. What we're really railing against is the side that says, okay, my parents harmed me in some way. Get rid of them, cut them out of your life. I see the other side with the older generation that says, yeah, my dad beat me for 14 years, but it's okay. And, and you know, I just water under the bridge like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You've never dealt with any of the emotions that go along with it. You've never really processed through any of the anger, any of anything else. And so you have a really strained relationship with your dad, but it's like, yeah, I kind of pushed it all down. Look, if we did that in marriage, you have something against your wife and you push it down, you push it down, you push it down and you push it down and you never really allow for any of the emotions out, any of the thoughts out.
What do you think is going to happen? Resentment Is going to build and the relationship will start to crack and sever. And so I make people go back and actually sit in the emotion of their younger self toward their parents. Like, I was really angry with dad. And the purpose of this is not to get them to hate their parents. As a matter of fact, the purpose is to strengthen the relationship. Now stop telling yourself that the giant lump in the living room where you shoved everything under the carpet isn't there. It is there. Open the carpet, get it all out, feel those emotions, and then you'll realize, man, the carpet can actually smooth out. We can go back to being able to walk through the living room rather than skirting around the edge of the walls, which is what we do every Thanksgiving of like, I really can't stand you and you really ruined my childhood and did a ton of things, but I'm going to choose to forgive you. That's not forgiveness. Going back and feeling the emotions of your younger self. Like, man, dad really hurt me when he did said X, Y, or z. Feeling those emotions, realizing, but I'm a strong individual. I'm resilient. It has helped in some ways. That's on the back end. After you felt that, then you have a much stronger relationship going forward. But we're on two different spectrums. This side looks at the other side of snowflakes, and we guys just give up. And you need to forgive your parents immediately. This side looks at it and goes, you didn't forgive your parents. You still hate dad. And then it comes out, you know, you hate grandpa. It comes out most of the time. But you get together and say that it didn't affect you. And so both sides are just lobbing warheads at one another, saying, you guys are idiots. In reality, we meet in the middle and we realize, dad did affect me. That did hurt. But that doesn't mean I have to cut him out of my life. I don't have to swing to the other side. And the other side needs to realize that did affect me. I don't have to just blanket forgive him immediately without ever processing the emotion. I want to get to the point where we work toward a better relationship and don't sweep everything under the rug. So I think there's a balance that we have to strike, that it can be struck. It can be a very good relationship going forward. But you do have to process through things. So when we get to Thanksgiving, you don't talk to your dad any time of the year or grandpa any time of the year until it comes to that. And then we suffer through the day, and it's like, ah, okay. I kind of have to. Man, I'd love for you to have a good relationship with your dad every day of the year where you giving him a call. That means you're going to have to process through some things. That means you're going to have to, yes, forgive him. But in order to forgive him legitimately forgive him, not blanket statement forgive him, you are going to have to deal with some of the emotions and some of the hurt without saying that it didn't happen or doesn't matter. It does matter. It did happen, and it hurts. That's okay. He's human, and we can work to forgive him. So I know that's just a quick therapy thing, but I think it's really important in this discussion to realize both of those sides are detrimental for their own reasons. And both of the older generation and younger generation get it wrong and claim that, you know, the other person's an idiot. We have to meet in the middle on that. Does that make sense?
[00:54:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does.
[00:54:48] Speaker A: I had.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: I had another question that was going to spin us off into a different direction that I really am interested to hear Yalls thoughts on. But with us having five minutes left, we will save that for the deep end. Y'all. Don't let me forget when we go to record the deep end. I've got a question for y'all that I want to ask.
[00:55:01] Speaker C: All right. Yeah, Remind me. All right. After we're done here. Just briefly, on Joe's thing, you're making me think of Home Alone, you know, the. Like under all the hijinks and, you know, beating up the bad guys. It's. Kevin's mad at his family and wants to get rid of them, and he meets the old guy who's estranged from his son. And, like, how, like, if that doesn't move you, they're in a church talking and kind of like, hey, second chances, reach out and call him. Why haven't you called him? Well, he doesn't want me to, like, just do it. Just that. That, like, if that doesn't move you at the end of the movie, you know, him hugging his mom and he looks out the name of the window and the neighbors hugging his kid. Like, that's Malachi. You know, that's what God does to people. And it's kind of funny that it's not a Christian movie, but it does kind of put that little theme in there, you know, and, like, that. That should be what the church is pointing people towards for sure.
[00:55:44] Speaker A: It's a great point. That's a great point.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: Is Home Alone a Christmas movie? Would y'all say a lot of debates surrounding that?
[00:55:49] Speaker C: Oh, of course. And because of things like.
[00:55:52] Speaker B: I think so. Everybody says it's not.
[00:55:54] Speaker C: Yeah, but is it.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: I thought it was Die Hard that they said it's not a Christmas movie.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: That one too.
[00:55:58] Speaker C: That's.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: Everybody says Christmas movie.
[00:56:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that one because. Or Home Alone because they say, well, that could be done at any time of the year. It didn't have to be for Christmas, but I just disagree.
[00:56:06] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: All right, guys, I think it's my turn for. Think fast.
[00:56:09] Speaker C: I'm pretty sure.
[00:56:12] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure it's me.
[00:56:13] Speaker C: Joe, you. You were a little unclear on that earlier.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Yes, I was. Yes, I was. These guys are jerks. So they make.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: All right.
So I feel like be or miss if we didn't do something at least remotely Thanksgiving related, we'll keep it light hearted. I hope everybody has a wonderful Thanksgiving. Enjoys the holidays with your family, with your parents. Go enjoy the time with them and. And spend some time with your family. All right, guys, what is the. What is the Thanksgiving tradition you are most looking forward to passing on to your children and to getting kind of getting them to enjoy what you enjoyed from a nostalgic perspective with regards to Thanksgiving. And I know we just talked about traditions are important, but what's your least favorite Thanksgiving thing? Maybe it's not something you guys do, but just a general Thanksgiving tradition or thing that is your least favorite. So two sided question there.
[00:57:00] Speaker C: Everybody knows my least favorite, and that's pumpkin pie. Just get that garbage out of there. That's true. So my favorite as a family, we always have the parade on in the morning. Hopefully that's starting to be less objectionable because it's really gotten the last couple years. We can't watch it, but hopefully that goes back in the box like some of that has. But I always enjoy that one with the kids getting up, starting snacks and stuff in the morning. But my personal one, growing up, Joe and I, when we had friends or cousins, you know, family around, whatever Wednesday night, we would play video games deep into the night. I don't really play video games anymore, but I'm taking mine and I'm gonna stay with my kids like they're. They're finally old enough to join me in that. I'm really looking forward to passing that on. It's kind of a pre Thanksgiving party, Joe.
[00:57:40] Speaker A: I think I blocked that out because I always got whooped in NHL Right, right. But you used to play a lot, and I would never play. And then I always had this thought that I would somehow beat you, and I never beat you. And I would just.
[00:57:51] Speaker C: You don't. You don't like that tradition as much. Yeah.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: Yeah, not as much. I talked about this in the episode that's dropping tomorrow for for the Gym podcast. One of the things that I love the most that I'm looking forward to passing.
[00:58:00] Speaker B: It doesn't drop tomorrow. It dropped. Oh, no, I'm sorry. We're recording on Monday. He's.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: All right.
[00:58:03] Speaker B: You're right.
[00:58:05] Speaker A: It better drop tomorrow.
[00:58:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Otherwise that's going to be a weird one. No, but the.
So growing up, we would always cut out of paper some.
A turkey or a leaf or pilgrim's hat or whatever else. You know, just kind of cool Thanksgiving thing. And we would always write something that we're thankful for, and we'd stick it on the wall. I get a little piece of tape and we'd stick it to the wall. And so we'd have a ton of people over and the wall would just be covered with all of the things that we're thankful for and to go through and to read everybody's. You know, some people have been through a lot that year, and so they're just thankful that they made it to the end of the year. And then there's other people that, you know, they're thankful for the food and, you know, some basic ones thankful for family, and then there's some really specific and really good ones. And so you just see an entire wall filled with things that you're thankful for. And that. That's one of my favorite traditions that we've done in the family that I will very much pass down to our kids that we're going to look to do every Thanksgiving going from here on out. And I hope that they continue that is. This truly is a time it's not just for thanks or for. For a turkey and for some football. Like, it is a time to give thanks and to sit back and go, man, God has blessed us amazingly. So my least favorite thing. Jack's already taken mine. I am not a fan of pumpkin in the least. I was trying to think of other things I. We always do.
[00:59:18] Speaker C: Like pecan. Or is it.
[00:59:19] Speaker A: I'm not a big sister.
[00:59:20] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah.
[00:59:20] Speaker A: I'm not a big pecan pie guy. No.
[00:59:22] Speaker B: The desserts are underwhelming for Thanksgiving. They love me some apple pie. That's the best thing. That is good. I like for Thanksgiving, but, man, I'M not a pumpkin guy. I'm not a pecan guy either.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: I'll eat pecan pie. I'll eat. My mom makes a fudge pie. That's good.
[00:59:34] Speaker C: I made a killer pecan pie last year. I'm gonna have to do I listen? Oh, I was gonna say my sister in law has a nut allergy so that's gonna have to wait till next year.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: So anyway, I listen to some sports podcasts where they're like the most boring content Thanksgiving week that people put out there is Thanksgiving food discussions.
I'm gonna go ahead and move. Move us. Move us.
[00:59:54] Speaker C: Go ahead.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Yeah, but no, I enjoyed it because I thought that was funny. They make that point. So my favorite tradition I'm looking forward to passing on with my kids. I'll give two One is just the, the thrill of Thanksgiving morning. I love Thanksgiving morning. We get to my parents house really early. Just we watch the parade. Similarly, we play a bunch of games. It's just kind of, you know, the house is a buzz. There's just a general excitement to it and that, you know, you. We eat around one or two and that's always fun and enjoyable but like just the, the, the enjoyment of Thanksgiving morning I like a lot. And then the backyard football game after lunch. Oh yeah, definitely, definitely will be passing that one on. As far as least favorite.
I like Black Friday shopping. I don't like how it's basically extended now into the Thursday night like where I feel like Thanksgiving Day is rushed. Rushed through so much to get to Black Friday shopping.
[01:00:40] Speaker C: I think they're starting to roll that back. I've seen some where there's. But they're also starting Black Friday shopping on like Monday now online. It's, it's really weird, but at least.
[01:00:47] Speaker A: Started on November 11th.
[01:00:49] Speaker C: Okay.
[01:00:50] Speaker A: Like I think it's veterans say like.
[01:00:51] Speaker C: Black, Black November now.
[01:00:53] Speaker A: Black November. Yeah.
[01:00:54] Speaker C: I'll add one more thing. I love the Wednesday night song and prayer service that most churches do.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: Love it.
[01:00:59] Speaker C: Absolutely. It's, it's the like the kickoff to the whole thing. It's so great.
[01:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah. My wife has a great tradition with her family the day after where they will go and they used to do this. I don't know. I think they are going to do this this year. They go to a tree farm, local tree farm. They used to live in Washington state so they had a lot of tree farms and they'd go and cut their own tree and then you know, they'd get it bundled up, put on top of the car and then go get hot chocolate and go home and decorate the tree. And that was their Friday. That's with a fresh pine smell. It's. It's a very fun tradition. We didn't grow up doing that. We had a fake tree. I guess we're losers for that. But the day that. So the day after, I mean, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, it's just a great time. We. We really hope that everybody enjoys their Thanksgiving time. Make sure you spend it with your family. Be around somebody. If you don't have family this time of year, find. Find church family. Find somebody that can take you into their home and be around those that love you, around those that you just be grateful for. You know, grateful to God for a lot of different things. And so, yeah, we. I don't know, fellas, that we want to use that to wrap up, but, yeah, just want to remind everybody, yeah, this is. This is a family time of year. We very much hope you enjoy it. We will be back next Monday with another episode and we will talk to you then. Thanks for listening.
