Is Every Christian Called to Evangelize?

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to think deeper, presented by Focuspress. I'm one of your co hosts, Joe Wilkey, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Harab. And before we get started, we want to give a brief plug, as always, which is our team Devo guides. And these are some that we wrote. How long ago has it been? Four years. Four years ago? [00:00:27] Speaker B: Um, think about three. [00:00:28] Speaker C: Yeah, and it's. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think it's five of us, I want to say. Um. And. And the women also have five on their side, I believe. Correct. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Five or six. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Those that just. Yeah, five or six that just contributed with different, uh, different things and different things to help teens and such. And so those are fantastic guides, especially as you're going through the summer, if your teen is looking for something to read through. Uh, if you're looking for some sort of devo guide, of course there is that. And as always, we push wills family worship guide, which is great for families, that you could take it on the go. If you're heading to, you know, some amusement park, hopefully not Disney, but if you're heading to some amusement park over the summer or whatever it is, and you happen to be in the hotel and you're trying to keep this. Keep family worship alive, make sure that you're checking that out. But as, as well, for the team Devo guides, we find those to be helpful. We do have some more things in the works for teens and such, but, yeah. Fellas, anything else before we jump right in? All right, so avail yourselves those. But, Jack, I'm going to turn over to you because you have a great outline for us today that's been building for, I think, a little while. You've talked about these things for months, I think, amongst us, and we've had some just really good discussions back and forth on what this looks like. You've written some articles, so I'm going to kind of let you take this one away. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah, this was a suggestion, kind of a suggestion given to us by focus plus subscriber, but also one of our church members. So shout out to sissy. She just had a line of kind of what the average Christian is supposed to do, you know, the daily christian life. And what's funny is there are at this point, I think, two lost episodes of think deeper. One of them we did just kind of the average christian life. [00:02:01] Speaker C: They're in the archives. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that one's gone. That one is lost to history. The other one is in the archives waiting on being published. It was. So the one that was deleted was the average christian life and about a devotional life and prayer and stuff. The most boring hour of talk you've ever. I mean, we all got off. We're like, that was terrible. We're not, we can't put that out. So we did another one. And then I'm not going to tell you about the second one. It was a doctor Brad Hara Brown table where we all went off the rails for an hour and so that might see the light of day someday. Anyway, it was about the average christian life. And so revisiting this, I thought about it from a different angle of not how to have a devotional life or whatever, but when you think about the term the priesthood of all believers, when you think about what is the average Christian supposed to do, not everybody's going to be the preacher. Not everybody's going to be the elder, the Bible class teacher, the missionary or whatever. And for a lot of people, that doesn't feel good enough. That feels like, what am I doing for God? Is it enough to be who I am as a spouse, parent, employee, everything that you do? And we've talked before about David Plattism, I think we called it, where he and Francis Chan, the books, radical, crazy love, sold bazillion copies, got people thinking that way of like, I need to go be a missionary. I need to sell all my stuff. I need to move into a tiny house and just kind of downsize so I can give things away for God. And all of the things that kind of got people thinking in that way of like, it's not enough to just live an average normal christian life. And so I want to look at that. I want to look at what the christian life should look like. But I want to start with how we've kind of misunderstood church is pointed in entirely the wrong direction in that it's over spiritualized. Everything is about evangelism. We've had that discussion about worship is viewed as evangelism and your home life is viewed as evangelism. Everything is evangelism. And evangelism is great, but evangelism isn't everything. And so we've had pushback and we talk about boycotting Disney, as Joe kind of hinted at there a bit ago. Well, how does that help us evangelize? Not everything is evangelism. Not everything is about that. And some people are so pointed in that direction that they think their whole christian life has to be about that, that the life of every member of the church has to be about that. And that kind of thing where we've over spiritualized it and so do you guys have thoughts on kind of the over spiritualization, what we mean by that? Because obviously religion is a spiritual pursuit. But how do we over spiritualize real. [00:04:28] Speaker C: Quick, before we get to. Before I guess I answer that or Joe answers that, I wanted to speak to the interesting nature of Sissy's question and not just her question. I'm sure a lot of christians have this question of how, how am I supposed to be a Christian in everyday life? Take a minute and think about, think about that question for just a second. You think about why that is something that christians are having to ask when most of the New Testament, the entire Bible, you could say, is designed to show us exactly what that looks like. And yet I think there are a lot of christians who do come away from it because of the over spiritualization that we're going to get to. Because church involvement really being only a Sunday thing, or if you're a really good Christian, only a Wednesday thing, we view it as just a certain aspect of our life. It's just our church life. And you think about somebody who goes to a nine to five job and they're an employee. They're not asking the question, well, how am I supposed to be an employee in everyday life, you know, outside of work? Why? Because they do it at nine to five. And, you know, for a lot of jobs, that's all that's expected of them. If you're, if you're somebody who plays basketball on Tuesday nights, you don't come away from that going, well, okay, how do I be a basketball player in everyday life? Why? Because it's just an aspect of your life. It's just a one, one night of, one night out of the week thing. I think we've turned our church involvement, we've turned our Christianity into that where that's what we do on Sunday mornings, that's what we do on Wednesday nights. That's what we, that's, that part of our schedule is eaten up. It's an aspect of our life. And so we do have people asking this question of, like, I know it's supposed to be different than the basketball on Tuesday nights. It's supposed to be different than the, than the nine to five employee who doesn't have to really do anything else outside of the nine to five, but they are left with that question of what does that look like? How do I be a Christian in everyday life? How do I be a Christian outside of worship, outside of Wednesday night bible study? And again, I just wanted to introduce this idea. I just wanted to kind of address the fact that it is unfortunate that that question is having to be asked, because so many people do treat it, again like the nine to five that you can just kind of clock out of, or the Tuesday night basketball thing where you're not expected to do anything else outside of that, as long as you show up to that. Does that make sense? You see where I'm coming from there? [00:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:45] Speaker A: And I would say to the flip side of that, because I agree with that. This is when we get to the over spiritualization, which is if you are trying to incorporate Christ into your life, and you make everything about evangelism and everything about kind of what we talked about last week with the. The camps and the spiritual high, and you're always trying to hit the spiritual high of making sure that you're always doing ultra spiritual things throughout the week. People burn out on that, and you might go, well, we shouldn't. Okay, well, talk to David about it. Half the psalms are about him kind of being burnt out, spiritually going, God, where are you? I don't see you. I'm scared for my life. I'm this, I'm that. I'm not feeling close to you. So we do have it in scripture where there are. We're not always on the spiritual high. Sometimes we're in the doldrums of life. We're just at the low. And I think when we over spiritualize things, this is why speaking about depression and things like that can be difficult, is because, well, we just need to, you know, you need to get outside yourself and evangelize, and you need to, I don't know, like, again, kind of ultra spiritual. Whereas the day to day life becomes almost unattainable from a spiritual perspective. You're always chasing this high of what you have to do instead of realizing that, you know, there's an aspect of all of life needs to be incorporated, as you talked about. Will, Jack, going back to your question, though, and what other ways do we see it? We've railed on this before. I do think that every single time a spiritual young man comes along, he must be ready to be a preacher. We got to send him into the preaching school. Why we can't have spiritual architects and spiritual plumbers and spiritual electricians and spiritual salesmen, and we can't have people that have a hunger, a deep thirst for God's word and have them work a secular job. They have to go into the ministry. I think we're doing ourselves a disservice when we do that, because it, it goes to your point, Will. Exactly. This is just for the church. This is just for this one little thing here, the rest of it. Ah, well, you know, the, the. Again, if you're ultra spiritual, we keep that in church. And if you're not ultra spiritual, that's when you become the architect, that's when you become the plumber or whatever it may be. It's like a good plan B. Yeah, exactly. But if you're ultra spiritual, it has to stay within the confines of the building in some way. Or you got to be a missionary or something. No, you don't. And I think that's what is the kind of the basis, that's why we want to hit this so hard at the beginning. [00:08:54] Speaker B: There's that. [00:08:55] Speaker A: There's also this entire thing. [00:08:56] Speaker B: There's a guilt that people feel like, am I doing enough for God? Am I. We have the. Have I the big thing that I need to do for God or whatever it may be. I think one of the other problems is when you read the New Testament, it's following Paul, it's following Peter, it's following Timothy, obviously Jesus in the gospels, but specifically the apostles, the missionaries, the preachers. And so you think, okay, my christian life needs to be like that. And I even kind of made this mistake in my book, church reset. I'm sure some of the listeners have read it. Well, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. Maybe you haven't and maybe nobody has, but I repeated this thing that's kind of been an idea for the last 1015 years of disciples. Make disciples. Everybody, every Christian is supposed to be a disciple maker. And it's really the great commission of going baptize and teach them to observe all that I commanded you. And once they learn what he's commanded, then they'll go and baptize and teach. I've studied with a guy for a while and trying to kind of make him a disciple maker and figure out how we can incorporate him into disciple making. It was never going to happen. Nothing against the guy whatsoever. That's just not his skill set. And that's okay as he's not a disciple maker, not going to be a particularly gifted evangelist. He could talk to people about Jesus and try to invite people to church or whatever, but it's. But then you're left with the question, all right, what is that guy's contribution to the church? If it's the priesthood of all believers, what is that guy supposed to do? And again, to use the New Testament, you're following Paul, you're following these guys and seeing their life and you think, okay, that's what it's like to be a Christian. What about the guy who was a brick mason in Colosse? What about the baker in Ephesus who went to church and listened to Timothy Preach? What was he supposed to do? He wasn't supposed to be a missionary or preacher or any of those things. What was he supposed to do? And so that's kind of the focus here. [00:10:39] Speaker C: And let's, so let's address very quickly too, Jack, what most congregations, what a lot of preachers, ministers, whatever would say about the guy that you just described who doesn't, you know, is not really going to be great. Evangelism can talk to people about Jesus, but that's about it. What's he going to do? A lot of preachers and a lot of, I guess church authorities would say, well, I guess he's just going to figure it out. I guess he's just going to have to figure out how to get better at evangelism and that needs to be his life's mission and he's just going to have to figure out how to get better at getting up and doing all these things. I think that's what we're mainly taking issue with in this episode and trying to establish why we don't necessarily think that that's the case. I mean, again, it is treated as if there is this, you need to be a preacher. The ultimate goal is being a preacher. The ultimate goal is being a missionary. I mean, that is what everybody should do. Everybody should go be an evangelist, everybody should go, you know, be a disciple and anything, or a disciple maker and anything less than that is like, well, you know, I guess that's fine, but really you need to be doing this. You really need to be being the missionary. You really need to be going out and being this evangelist for 40 hours a week. And again, anything less than that is like, well, okay, I guess that's fine, but you know, we don't really have anything for you if that's the case, other than just show up to church. That's what we're trying. So in a way the expectations are raised for people, but when they don't hit those expectations of being a missionary, preacher, whatever, then we ultra lower the expectation. Like, okay, well then in that case, just show up to church. In that case, just try to be here for the fellowship meal and that's about all we're going to ask of you. So it's very strange. Again, the way that we raise the expectations while also lowering the expectations for the average churchgoer. [00:12:18] Speaker A: There does seem to be a massive gap between kind of the preacher class and in terms of spirituality. Instead of realizing that gap should be, yeah, the preacher is going to be the person that's most likely going to know more, maybe went to preaching school, whatever it is. Timothy's obviously the one that's supposed to call out false teaching and deal with the wolves and everything else. And so let not many of you become teachers. Right. So there is a level of, like, authority that's given, and you're going to be. But I think in when a chasm is too big and the average person is looking at like, I could never be that. That's not healthy. That's not really good. We want to be able to bring them along in their Bible knowledge and just help them realize that, that baker can really do a lot for God within the context of him being a baker. But, fellas, I want to transition to this idea that you hear a lot, which is kind of taken off of romans twelve one and two, all of life is worship. [00:13:11] Speaker B: The overcorrection, the overcorrection to this. You know, we kind of confine our spirituality to the building or contributing to the specific work of the church. And so that's maybe overdoing it on that side and you go to the other side. It's like, well, everything you do is spiritual. And you sit down and watch a movie with your wife and kids, and then. Then you're worshipping, you know, because of all of life is worship. So to kind of explain a little more what you're saying there. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Is all of life worship? In a way. Is that a good over correction to make where we do start to spiritualize everything? And I'm assuming the idea behind this is really to get people's minds thinking on everything you do ought to bring glory to God. You know, you can. You can use that of all life is to bring glory to God type of thing. And so all life is worship. What are your thoughts on that over correction? Back to that side. [00:14:00] Speaker B: Well, we're using the word over corrections. We already gave it away. Will, do you have your new king James open there? [00:14:05] Speaker C: I do, yes, sir. [00:14:06] Speaker B: I hate doing this, but we're going to have to give credit to the new king James over the NaS on this one. If you can read romans more than people think, yes. Come on. [00:14:17] Speaker A: It's a really good transition for the three times. No. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:20] Speaker C: Okay. [00:14:20] Speaker B: If you could read romans twelve one for us, please. [00:14:22] Speaker C: Yes, sir. Romans twelve one. I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies, a living sacrifice, fully acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. [00:14:33] Speaker B: All right. New american standard. Therefore, I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies, a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. There's your problem. Now, the problem, the interesting thing is that word there is, you get liturgy is essentially our english transliteration of it. And so you'll hear if churches have liturgical worship, but really it's just the word for priestly service. And so you could say the priests were worshiping as they went and lit the incense and made the sacrifices and kept the tabernacle or the temple, things like that. And so. But that's not praise worship. That's not singing. That's not, you know, the Sunday assembled worship. And so somebody would look at that and say, well, then your life is your worship. Not really, but you get where they're getting with that. [00:15:20] Speaker C: I would just say, can we make sure our social media team clips this part of the podcast and post out on social media, giving the credit to new KIng James? No, that's exactly what I was going to was. That's exactly what I was going to bring up, was the idea that I do think every aspect of your life should be with Christ at the, at the focal point, with Christ as your, you know, Christ reigning overall, as we've talked about quite a bit, when you sit down with your, with your spouse to watch a movie, Christ needs to be on y'all's mind in the sense of like, what is, you know, should we be watching this movie, for instance, or when you're out on the ball field? You know, Christ should reign over that as well in the way that you, you know, for young people are acting towards teammates or acting towards the opponents or just any aspect of life, Christ needs to be at the focal point. That doesn't make all of life worship, which is a key distinction. All of life, praise all of life. You taking time and, and really exalting God and praising God's name. Just use common sense for a second. That's not done when you're watching a movie. That's not done when you're out, again on the, on the ball field. That's not done when you're necessarily out on your drive to work. Now, it can be on your drive to work. You can be singing, praying, or whatever, but there is a, there has to be intentionality behind it. There has to be purpose behind it. Just to make the vague statement, all of life is worship. No, it's not. Worship implies intentionality. Worship implies purpose. But the Romans twelve one and two, translation difference there, I do think, probably illuminates why maybe a lot of people have the idea that, oh, well, all of life is supposed to be worship. All of life is. Christ is supposed to reign over all of life. And you should again, in every aspect of your life have Christ as the focus and have the perspective of essentially, would Christ be okay with what I'm doing? That doesn't make all of life worship, which is an important distinction to make. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say we're bringing glory to God and everything, but, yeah, that doesn't mean, that does not always mean worship. So I wasn't going to add too much more to what you said, that he is the focal point, but worship is for a very specific thing. And if all of what, it's kind of the incredibles quote, if all of life is worship, that nothing's worship kind of way, you know, like, uh, if everybody's super, nobody will be. If you've made everything, then you kind of trivialize the worship service in a way. Like you kind of bring it down. Yeah, there's something special, and there is, there very much is something special to it. There are, there are rules laid out in the New Testament about the, specifically the worship gathering of what that's supposed to look like. There is a level of difference to that when you come together for that purpose. And so if we're kind of, well, well, it's all worship. Well, then nothing's worship in a roundabout way, if that makes sense. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Everything glorifies God, and glorifying God sounds like, oh, well, that must be worship. It's not, as you said, worship has to be intentional. I want to correct, and this is why I don't do a lot of Greek, because it's very dangerous. The word is latreia, not letergeo. It is the priestly stuff, though Hebrews nine uses it to talk about basically the rituals that the priests went through. And so that is the term that's used. But it is your life as the priesthood of all believers is your life. Which starts getting us a little closer to the meaning that we want to emphasize here is, no, not all of life is worship, but all of life is priestly service, anything that you're doing. And so there's the body parts, sections of the New Testament that help us out with this as well. Ephesians four and one, Corinthians twelve. If you guys actually want to each grab one of those for us, please. [00:18:44] Speaker C: I've got Ephesians four. [00:18:45] Speaker B: All right, Joe, if you can do the first corinthians in that it emphasizes not everybody does everything. And so even with that, though, our, as I mentioned at the start, the over spiritualization, we start immediately driving it back towards the official sanctioned church stuff of. Okay, there, there are different parts. Somebody's going to be the preacher. Well, maybe you can be the song leader. Maybe you can guide it that says the prayers. Maybe you can be the lady that coordinates the potluck. Maybe you can teach the kids Bible class, you know, things that have to do with Sunday. You got to think bigger than that. You got to think outside of that, about all of life, because then what you're starting to do is you're training christians to think separately about your church life and everything else. Like we just talked about, the common compartmentalization, whereas you, being a part of the body, might not always be in connection with the rest of the body throughout the week. It doesn't have to be church level super spiritualized always, you know, around your church family to do these things. It might be as being as a baker, and so will, I think you said you had the Ephesians four one. If you can just do eleven through 16 there. [00:19:54] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Ephesians 411 through 16. And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men and the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. But speaking the truth in love may grow up in all things into him who is the head Christ, from whom the whole body joined in it together by what every joint supplies according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. [00:20:37] Speaker B: All right, so the interesting thing to me there is you've got the roles in verse eleven, but then in verse twelve, the equipping of the saints for the work of the service building of the body of Christ. What are they being equipped to do. And when we over spiritualize, it comes back around to, they're being equipped to preach, they're being equipped to teach, to be missionaries, to evangelize, to do things like that to you guys, what equipping are they being told to do? [00:21:04] Speaker A: That's a great question. I would say they're being equipped specifically, as it talks about, for the work of service, whatever service that is, that they can provide to the church. And that service is going to look drastically different between each. As you talked about the baker, sometimes that service is going to be, you know, helping. So twofold, I would say, is first off, and this is not necessarily in the context of Ephesians four here, but in the idea of bringing glory to God. Um, he's going to talk later at the end of Ephesians four about not quenching the spirit and, uh, or not grieving the spirit, rather. And I do think that, yes, it's kind of taken out of context because in that moment, he's talking about, you know, not allowing anger and everything else to come up. But I think there's an element of, like, letting the spirit flow through you and understanding what that looks like in the equipping of the saints, and so knowing what you're kind of bringing off of. And I hate going out of context again, but the Romans twelve, your spiritual service, whatever that looks like, you're equipping Christians to better understand how they can both benefit the body, but also not grieve the spirit in whatever their aspect or whatever, basically, position of life they've been given. [00:22:11] Speaker C: So I would take it to just the very next verse in verse 13, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ, the work of ministry, the work of service that Christians are being equipped for, is to, I would say, number one, do exactly what we're talking about, which is learn how to become more like Christ in every aspect. Again, you could over spiritualize that and say, okay, well, in church, no, no. How to become more like Christ in every aspect of your life. They're, they're learning, or they're being equipped to do that, but then also for, again, verse 13, till we all come to the fullness of these things and to become more like Christ. There is an element of everybody's going to be at different spiritual levels in their, in their spiritual journey, so to speak. Spiritual maturities, different Bible knowledge, different spiritual levels, again, so to speak, and so part of that to me, the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, is to you figure out not only how you can become more like Christ, but how you can help other people become more like Christ in every aspect of your life. Not just at the fellowship meal, not just at the potluck, not just at the Sunday service, or just at the church. Organized, church sanctioned eventually, but through your mentorship, through having people over for dinner, through becoming closer as a, as a body of believers, through whatever joint supply you see in verse 16, you're figuring out how to become more like Christ. And you're also along, along on the ride with your other, your fellow christians in how they can become more like Christ. Verses eleven through 16 is one long, long run on sentence, but it all ties together so incredibly well to build to verse 16, which is the entire body, every joint supplies for the growth of the body and the edifying of itself in love. And I think to tie back to verse twelve, or to go back to verse twelve, the equipping of the saints, to get to that point, to once again become more like Christ, and to help other people become like Christ. Jack, what would you have to answer that? [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it is thinking, again, not church wise, but kingdom wise, you're equipping people for their work in the kingdom. That the difference there is church is kind of a cloistered mindset of kind of drawing everybody into this thing, whereas kingdom is sending everybody out to be who they are, where they are, the baker, the bricklayer, whatever they are, and putting them in position to further the work of the church, where they are, by blessing people, by encouraging people, by leading people to Christ, whatever it may be, and not thinking just so exclusively church related. How does this come back to the church? How do we put this under heading label of the church? And so by equipping is I need you to be as mature in Christ as you can be, where you are, and that will help the church grow in its own way. And so the first corinthians twelve, one that goes along with this, it gives a list of gifts as well, similar to the one in Ephesians four, verse eleven, but a little bit different. Joe, do you want to read first corinthians 1228 and. Yeah, just read 28. We'll do. Just do 28 alone for the list. Sorry. [00:25:19] Speaker A: And God is appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helps administrators or administrations, rather various kinds of tongues. [00:25:29] Speaker B: All right, so some of those are like the list in Ephesians, teachers, things like that. Some of them are miraculous gifts, and then you've got those words, helps, administrations. Nothing really special about that. But some people just have organizational skills, and an organization like the church needs that kind of thing. And you can help with those, but they're very average, simple things. But this is the chapter where Paul's talking about body parts. Not everybody's an eye, not everybody's an ear. I think part of it is, as you mentioned earlier, with the young guys, trying to get every spiritual young guy to be a preacher, the mouth thinks everybody needs to be a mouth, really understands the importance of the mouth and thinks it's good to be a mouth. And so let's get everybody to be a mouth. And our job is to make everybody a mouth. And disciple making is about making more mouths. What is a foot? What is a. And they're so essential. The mouth can't get anywhere without a foot. And so you need a baker in Ephesus who makes money and supports Paul and Timothy with that money and raises a family there. In Ephesus. They can't all move to Jerusalem. They can't all move to Rome. They can't all go on mission trips. Just that kind of thing. The average member. And so when we're talking about the roles, the gifts, the different things that everybody has. Yeah, everybody is going to have a different thing, and it's going to come out really where you are. We're going to get to that point next is kind of figuring out your quote, unquote calling. But any other thoughts on the body parts illustrations here? [00:26:53] Speaker C: I would say that's. That's such a great point. And that's the body parts thing is so instructive when you consider, bring it back around to what we started talking about with the idea that everybody needs to be a preacher, everybody needs to be a missionary. That does pretty much completely contradict Paul's body part analogy here, where it is the idea of, like, well, everybody's supposed to be an ear or everybody's supposed to be a nose. That's the ideal. And if you have to settle to be a pinky toe, or if you have to settle to be a wrist or something else, well, you know, I guess that's fine. But what would be great is if you could be an ear or nose or, you know, whatever the analogy or whatever the body part you want to choose. That's not what Paul's saying at all. He's not saying, okay, the goal is for everybody to be a nose, but if you can't be a nose, then that's fine, you can be something else, which is once again kind of the way that we present it to our congregations of like, it'd be great if every single person here could go out and be an evangelist. It'd be great if every single young man could grow up to be a preacher. And then if you can't, well, once again, we'll lower the expectations for you. And you know that that's not what Paul's saying to Jack's point. That's so instructive there to bring that up. And for what, for the body parts example that Paul uses of there are going to be all kinds of different parts and it's not okay. Or it's not acceptable for the nose to say to the pinky toe, we don't really need you, the nose to say to the ear, we don't need you either. We need everybody to be a nose. And so I do think that does shed some light on kind of the, the backwardsness of the way that we present this priesthood of all believers idea to your everyday Christian is once again this idea of like, we really need everybody to be a preacher and missionary. And if you can't, well, I guess that's okay, but it would be much better if you could be a preacher or missionary. That's not what Paul's saying at all. [00:28:29] Speaker A: There needs to be a certain level of humility to realize that somebody's got to be the liver and the kidneys and the less honorable parts. Uh, you know, the things that the feet that get stepped on, like those are parts that make the body go. And every part is worthy of honor in a way. And the fact that without you, you know, we need you. We need you. Um, but when we are clearly just talking about the hands and, and the head, uh, and, and that's mainly what we push in this over spiritualization of things, then the person who does kind of feel like maybe they are the foot or maybe they just don't really fit in. A lot of times they end up going to, I would say to community churches where they can just blend in and nothing's required of them. Well, I can't be that. And so, and we really want to avoid that and help them realize that we need you where you are in whatever circumstance that is. And that kind of gets us in, Jack, to the next point, if you're ready to transition into it, which is, what is the average Christian? [00:29:24] Speaker B: Well, I wanted to use also just briefly, there's another scripture to hit here is in one Samuel 30. There's a story of David, and they're out of battle. They're going after the Amalekites, and they battle, and everyone's still chasing them. But some of the guys are too exhausted. They said, we just can't fight anymore. So they stay with the baggage. The other guys go and defeat the bad guys, and they come back and say, all right, we get all the spoils because we went and did the fighting. And David comes in and says, uh, no, everybody gets it. The guys that stayed with the baggage, they were doing service for us. They were part of the team. Just because they didn't go fight doesn't mean they don't get part of the spoils from this. And he made sure everybody was taken care of. There can be that attitude of, well, there's, there's the real fighters, the real people on the front lines. Well, sometimes there are christians on the front lines, but there's a reward that goes all around. And this is not to downplay preachers and elders. I really do think that is something that's exalted and built up in the New Testament as well. It's like, these are really important people then, as Paul says, you know, like, they're worthy of double honor, who rule well and things like that. And so it's not to downplay that, but it is to say, hey, let's not downplay the other people either. As one corinthians twelve says that those that receive more honor should not. Basically, those that we give the most attention, we should also make sure we're giving attention to the lesser noticed body parts. And so that part as well. This all is a little bit abstract so far, so stick with us because I think we're going to get to like how this to the practical of this and how it applies and how this is actually is a pretty important shift in our thinking as to what the church is supposed to be. [00:30:56] Speaker A: I had a quick thought before you get into that. We are now seeing a TikTok generation who very much desires fame over almost anything else. How do you think this has a bearing on church work? Because it seems to me like what we could very much be dealing with going into the future is a church where everybody does want this, even more so than what we already see. Everybody kind of wants the fame, the glamour, the job that's going to get noticed, because that is just the way that everything else in society seems to be going. Where I remember reading this statistic, like, what was this not too long ago? Maybe, maybe a few years ago that for the first time in history, people would rather be famous than rich. That's just mind boggling to me that they would be willing to give up. Like, I don't care if I'm poor as long as you know my name. We're going to have to guard against this in the church. I would say going forward, especially with the younger, we're going to have to learn. And this goes back to the humility point of young kids are going to have to know their place as they grow up, where it's not always about being famous. It's not always about being the mouth at the church that everybody gets to see. I could see that being a very big issue where they go, you know what? I'm never going to be that. And why we have so many women rebelling as well. You know, kind of the, well, why can't women just say, why can't they get up and speak? Why can't they get up and preach? Because they're looking at it only through the lens of the only important people are those who are kind of at the head of the congregation. That is one of the ways that we're really doing ourselves a disservice by over spiritualizing and making the preacher kind of like the head. [00:32:28] Speaker C: Nobody wants to be the, the extra in the movie. They want to be the star. They want to be the Tom Cruise or they want to be the Morgan Freeman or whoever is the star of the movie. They don't want to be an extra, you know, same thing with a basketball team every, or our sports, you know, everybody wants to be the star. Nobody wants to be the guy coming off the bench. Nobody wants to be, you know, the guy that gets thrown three minutes in a game compared to the guy that plays almost the entire game. They want to be the star. And so this is where I will also bring up, we actually talked about this in our last deep end episode, um, to it in response to, or I guess, kind of following the the VBS summer camp episode has some great questions and comments. Here's your plug for focus. Plus, if you want to to have your comments responded to, you want to get a little more extra content, subscribe to focus. Plus, we always do a follow up episode called the Deep End, but we got into this in the last deep end of this is where we have to tread very carefully, in my opinion, with lectureship culture. The idea that the preacher, and not just the preacher, but the preacher that speaks on lectureships, man, that is the star of the basketball team. That is the, the Tom cruise of the, of the church. They are the ones that. And everybody wants to be. Lectureships can be great. You can learn a lot of things from lectureships. One of the. The. In my opinion, significant consistency in the con column of lectureships is it does very much present this idea that, like, that's the glitz and glamour of the church right there. That guy that goes to around to 16 different lectureships every single summer and, you know, 20 over the course of a year, and he's, he's the featured guy, man, if only. If only I could be that. If only everybody could be that. We. We need to tread very carefully and make sure that we keep this perspective. I'm glad Jack said a second ago this shift in thinking that we need to have of, like Joe, to, to address your point, we have to make sure that we are consciously teaching people and con, constantly talking about the fact that that's not necessarily the case, that that is the number one glamour spot of the Church of Christ, is the church of Christ preacher who goes to every single extraship. It's a great role. It's a noble role. We should. We need preachers. We should have preachers. At the same time, if we have the perspective of, like, that's the superstar of the church and everybody else is just a. Just a bench player or everybody else is just a movie extra. Once again, somewhat contradictory to what Paul said in one corinthians twelve, but I think that's what we have to guard against to tie into your tick tock point, Joe, of everybody wanting to be the famous person or everybody wanting to be the star. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Now more than ever. [00:34:47] Speaker C: Right now more than ever, we, as church leaders, have to guard against that. And we have to guard against that by making sure that preachers don't get elevated to pedestals and, you know, under certain, you know, pretenses, there's another side. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Of that coin of, for people who aren't that, that the guy that comes to church, the woman that comes to church, you're not going to be the preacher. You're not going to be the star of that show. And so you have a thing where you are, whether it's your career, your hobby, something like that. Even as a teenager, there were the kids, maybe he was the high school football star or whatever, and he'd come to church and was like, well, yeah, I go to church. My thing is that I'm the football guy. And it was, with me, it was kind of like, well, yeah, Jack's the preacher, kid. And I, you know, the one that's doing sermons and going to the camps and stuff like that. And I'm the football kid and so, yeah, you go do your thing and I'm going to do mine. And so they separate their life from church and, okay, well, I go to church, I read my bible, I'm a Christian, but like, but I'm star over here. Yeah, my main thing is here, my identity is in this, and your identity is in being a preacher. And that's cool that you've got yours, I've got mine. And again, it's the separation we're talking about that happens when we don't understand what the average Christian is supposed to do, which drives us into our next point here where we want to go with this. It actually was something that Martin Luther developed, and so we don't have to be Lutheran to get some good points off of Luther. He had some good things to say as they were reforming, as they were coming out of the roman catholic church. And he was looking at it and they had the priests and he looked at it as well. One Peter two nine says, we're all priests and the priesthood of all believers, that term that we use. And so we're not going to make everybody go study and be a priest. And then he said, you know, we've got the monasteries where we send like the superstar Christians away, even further away from the world and everybody else and cloister away their spiritual fervor to where it's just totally in the brain, it's totally academic, it's not real world, hands on kind of stuff. And Luther turned around and said, no, no, everybody's a priest. Everybody needs to do that. And so he taught what's, what's now known as the doctrine of vocation. You know, we think of your vocation as your job, but really the word comes from the idea of calling what you're called to do. And I think that's a lot of people look to, well, what's God calling me to do? God's calling me to Africa. God's calling me to, to some mission field in Asia. God's calling me to, again, the David Platt radical stuff we talk about. He's calling me to sell my house and downsize and live in poverty to give money to somebody else. Some people are kind of, sort of called to those kinds of things. And I don't mean like God sends you a message in your head, but the door is open. You realize I'm supposed to do that. This is a good work that God has given me. But what is everybody called to do? Well, not everybody is called to those things. What you're called to do, in most cases is the life in front of you. When you wake up in the morning, if there's a spouse next to you, you are called to serve them in the way that the Bible tells you to. If you're a wife, it's submission and supporting your husband. If you're a husband, it's leading your wife and providing and protecting your family and those things like that. If there are children in the bedroom down the hallway, your calling is to raise them in Christ. If you wake up and you go to the job as a baker or a bricklayer, a doctor or a lawyer, whatever you may do, your calling is to be a Christian in that. And so Luther had this great quote where he said, the maid who sweeps her kitchen is doing the will of God just as much as the monk who prays, not because she may sing a christian hymn as she sweeps, but because God loves clean floors. The christian shoemaker does his christian duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes, but by making good shoes, because God is interested in good craftsmanship. And so that's not all of life, is worship, but that is, hey, you've been put where you are to glorify God, where you are to. To bring a christian light and influence into whatever that may be. And so for the preacher, it is a specialized job where he is in the church, he maybe has his office in the church building. And it's much more direct in the way his job applies to glorifying God. Whatever yours is, you have to start thinking of it that way. This is my role in the kingdom, not, well, I'm not a preacher, so I'm not really doing that much for the church. Yeah, you are. Because if everybody was the preacher cloistered away in a monastery, or everybody went into work at the church building, what wouldn't happen? We wouldn't be lights in the world. We wouldn't be those things. The preacher is kind of the guy with the torch who lights everybody else up to go out and be the lights. And. And that's such an important role. And I think that that Luther quote is brilliant about helping you understand you're part of this. The little things you do that you don't think have any connection to the church are a huge part of it. [00:39:22] Speaker A: That quote is fantastic. And one of the things I love about it the most is it kind of hits at the over spiritualization of like, oh, you know, she's singing christian hymns. And that's what makes. No, no, that thing where, like, remember where business. [00:39:33] Speaker B: And they still do it, but for a while, they're the putting the fish on your business thing to say, I'm a Christian. Like, maybe don't. You don't necessarily need to do that, but have the best craftsmanship. Be the best, be the most integrity filled, be the most efficient. Just the best customer service quality. Yeah. I mean, well, okay. Will can speak this better than any of us. Chick fil A has the reputation they have for a reason. They don't come out and say, christian chicken. They say, closed on Sunday. And so people get the message. And obviously, there's the history of things they've supported or whatever else, but it's like, it's the cleanest restaurant. It's the best customer service restaurant. They put out a quality, you know, a consistent, quality product, and that's consistent with. We're closed on Sunday. The worst thing is when somebody would put the fish on their logo and they would try and cheat you. They would do shoddy work. They would do a bad job. And it's like, that's bringing down the church. You don't have to advertise it in that way. You can just do a really good job and then maybe the opportunities to share the light come on the back end of it. [00:40:35] Speaker C: That's what I was gonna say is you set yourself apart so much when you just do exactly what you guys are talking about. When you show up to work and are dependable and reliable and you are, you know, not cursing. You're, you're, you're, you're, you have integrity and you're treating people kindly and, you know, you're a married man who's not flirting with a secretary and all these things you are. Talk about being a light to the world. And we think everything has to be door knocking and everything has to be, you know, let me, let me hand you this christian track. And everything has to be okay. Let me set up a Bible study. Sure. That that would be great. You know, that maybe that comes down the road. But what your vocation is, you know, the doctrine of vocation that we're getting to here. And I'm with Joe and Jack, of course. I love that, that Luther quote because it does describe, to answer the question that we started with, that sissy asked, like, what's an average, what's a Christian supposed to do in everyday life? Exactly. That they're supposed to go and do whatever they have been blessed to be able to do. So for men to be a husband, to be a father, to be a great worker in the workforce, to do all of those things to the best of your ability, do it kindly, do it honestly, do it with integrity. That's what you're called to do. And once again, that's going to set you so far apart from, from so many different people in our society. That is going to be your light to the world. That is going to be your open window of opportunity that people are going to see you as different. And in a lot of cases, they're going to ask about it, they're going to say, man, what makes you different? Why are you coming in here smiling every single day and with a great attitude and optimistic and joyful? That's what a Christian is supposed to do. That is what the average Christian is supposed to. You're supposed to show up to work on Monday and have it not be just like everybody is, man. I mean, I can't believe it's Monday. Wish the week, wish the weekend was here already type of thing. That's what the Christian, the average Christian is not supposed to do. You're supposed to come into the office again with the optimism and with joy, with a great attitude. That's what the average Christian, and the average Christian is such a poor way to put it. What I mean is, that's what the non preacher is supposed to do. You're supposed to go in and love your wife, as Jack already spoke to love your spouse. If you're, if you're a female, you know, raise your kids, train them up in the nurture and ammunition of the Lord. That is your calling, that is your vocation. It does not have to be done from a pulpit of, I've got, I've got to be a preacher. I just don't have any contribution to the church. That's not the case at all. We've got to start viewing every single responsibility that we have throughout our day, which, you know, the three of us are. I almost said the three of us are in our twenties, Jack. You are not in your 20s. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Actually, Joe's not in his 2020. Yeah, that's right. Come on, don't remind me. [00:43:04] Speaker C: My point is, we are in a very high, heavy responsibility aspect of our lives. Of our lives. Our job as the three of us is to make sure that we are taking on every single one of those responsibilities and doing it to the best of our ability. Parenting, uh, loving our spouse again, the work that we have, the, the service that we provide to the church, it's so much of an all or nothing mentality. With so many christians, it's got to be all missionary, all preacher, or nothing else really matters. That's simply not the case. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Jack hit on a very key point about the kingdom earlier. We want people to walk into the bakery and have Christianity right there, you. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Know, where they're seeing that point for the end. I want to kind of finish on that point because I think there's a little more flesh out there, but it's. It's at the heart of this that's kind of where I want to get to with it. I want to read. Well, let me say real fast, okay, make your point. I want to read a verse here, okay. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Because I wanted to come back to the gnostic point, which is we want to make sure that we're not gnostic to the point. Like, and this is the luther quote, gets at this perfectly, where he's talking about, God loves clean floors. God loves a really well made shoe. This craftsmanship, right? This is the dominion mandate played out. God loves when people do what they do to the best of their ability. We look at it like, if we can't spiritualize it, then what's the point? There's a massive point to this, which is that God very much appreciates and loves when people are doing the best that they can do. And whatever they're given, they're given place or they're given status in life, is so we can make agnostic and again, try to spiritualize everything. We're missing the point that maybe God just really loves good craftsmanship. Maybe God loves when people figure out how to make it work together. It's like, whoa, that's incredible. That is bringing glory to God. He gave you the gifts to do it. You are using his gifts. You're joyfully doing it as will spoke to. You're doing it to the best of your ability. You're trying with. With all your might. You're doing it to his glory. And we miss that when we try to just spiritualize everything. That's the brilliance of the Luther quote is that God is not a not. This is not a gnostic thing where it has to be spiritualized. This is a real world, hands on. Good craftsmanship matters to God. And I just didn't want that point to be missed. But, Jack, go ahead and get us to Ephesians 210. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So where it says, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. God is preparing good works for you to walk in God is preparing good things for you to do. And again, that is not a big thing. It is something as small as you every day when you wake up, there are good works prepared for you. It is in loving your spouse, in loving your children. It's in. In serving your church family in some sense, in. And if it is your turn to give a sermon or to teach a kid's bible class or to bring a food for the potluck or whatever, that's part of it. That's some of the good work you can do. If it's visiting somebody or making a call to somebody who needs encouragement or checking on or taking a meal, those are things too. But you going in and doing that again, making a clean floor or whatever it may be, that's part of the work of the church. And we don't think of that as the work of the church. It absolutely is. And so going back to the point of the great commission, making disciples, Paul taught Timothy, who went to Ephesus, who taught the bread, the baker. And the baker was not supposed to go and also become a missionary himself. He was supposed to go be. If Jesus were a baker, if Jesus were a baker, raising a family in Ephesus, act as Jesus would act, you know, with the love, with the kindness, with the truth, with the diligence and all the things that he did, the same goes for you. Who am I? Where has God placed me? These are the good works that God has created for me to walk in, and I am serving the church by doing those things. We despise the small things. And I'm really at the point, honestly, where I'm, I have to be careful not to go the other direction and despise the big things and think, man, the, the bench warmers like me sitting here preaching sermons and writing articles and doing podcasts and stuff like that while the people in the real world are out there, especially in this, this world that's growing more hostile to Christianity. You guys, we had a comment from a brother in the deep end a couple weeks ago about, in his workplace, he's got a good job providing for his family. Well, but the trans pronouns thing is really coming home to him. It's like you are being a light for the kingdom in going into that place and dealing with things like that and bringing a christian attitude and showing christian love, but also christian truth and things like that in a difficult situation with your job on the line. And I'm just sitting here again from what feels like a cushy ivory tower. And you Christians in the real world, the people who have, and again, I don't mean to speak down on preachers and elders and people, missionaries, people engaged in that work because it is so important. But the people on the front lines at this point are the Christians in the workplace, are the Christians out there in the world dealing with these things, dealing with the challenges and all that? And yes, when the chance to evangelize comes or whatever, we'll talk about that in just a minute. But more than anything, it's going in and putting in good work and a smile on your face and integrity and all of those things that we've talked about here for the last few minutes is furthering the kingdom, and we have to look at it that way. [00:48:05] Speaker C: One, one clarification that I would add, and this is going to tie us into, I think, some of what we're going to cover next week, but everything that we're talking about here is not to say that everybody is on an equal playing field when it comes to spiritual knowledge or spiritual role or spiritual authority. There is obviously, you read first and second Timothy. You read Paul. There is obviously a higher level of authority with the preacher, with the elder. There is a higher expectation. It's a higher, higher calling, you might say. And so, therefore, with that is going to come the expectation, but also is going to come, you know, the privilege, so to speak, of you. You are going to be the spiritual authority. You are going to, you know, be. I mean, Timothy was. He got a lot of responsibility, but it was a very noble calling, very noble role. I don't want this to come across as, like, man, the. He's on the exact same playing field as the. The person who doesn't do any of that, maybe doesn't have as much time to study the Bible. That's not the case either. We have to, once again, tread very lightly here when it comes to that. The point that we're trying to make is it's not as if everybody's goal should be trying to become the preacher or whatever. And so that's going to get us into, because we don't have a ton of time left. The question that I want to ask that I think, Jack, not to spoil it, did is going to title the episode here. And that is, is everyone supposed to evangelize? Is event, you know, and of course, everybody's knee jerk reaction. Well, of course, right. Of course everyone's supposed to evangelize. Let's get into it, guys. Is everybody supposed to evangelize? That is, I think, what is pushed across the United States, you know, from most congregations, is, hey, everybody is supposed to go out and evangelize. Everybody is Jack referenced in his book, everybody's supposed to go and make disciples. They'll use Matthew 28, talking about teaching things, teaching them to observe all things. And they'll say, well, all they'll say, making disciples is a part of the. All things that Jesus told everybody to. To go teach. And so therefore everybody's supposed to go out and make disciples. What are our thoughts on that? I don't know. Who wants to go first? [00:49:58] Speaker A: Here, I'll take it. And then let Jack, uh, get into his. I think everybody needs to be able be ready to make a defense. Uh, you know, to. To give the. I'm going to butcher them. What is it? One Peter 315 I want to say, um. [00:50:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Anyone who asks for a reason, for the reason, for the hope that is in you. [00:50:16] Speaker A: There you go. Thank you. So everybody needs to have that kind of in the barrel, so to speak. And what I mean by that is somebody comes and says, why are you so joyful at your job? Why are you so good at this? Or why are you? Which would be great if people ask me, why are you so good at this? Like, I don't know, man. I'm just amazing. No, but if people were to look at the way you're living your life and they go, how? Why? You do need to be ready to give a defense. You do need to be ready to talk about the hope that is within you. We look at that, and I remember as a kid, you need to memorize all five verses for the plan of salvation. That's not really what's being discussed there. It's how did you come to Christ? Why does Christ matter to you? Where did you find this open? And what is the hope that you have as to why you're so joyful and why you're so efficient and why you're so good at whatever it is that you do. That's where you can point to Christ and give him glory in all things. Having your witness, as the denominational world might say, I think, is something that everybody should have lined up and be ready to give to the average person. You have to define, I suppose, what evangelism means in this situation, which is, is everybody ready to go out and knock doors? Maybe not. But the guy where you are in your workplace needs to be ready to give it offense. Or to talk about the hope that is within him, which, again, would be his witness, I would say so that's my initial answer. To this. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:51:38] Speaker B: I think for some people, just the, the invitation is maybe their only thing, I think is the apostle Andrew brought the invitation. Hey, just come and see. Come and see Jesus to Peter. And so that might be all some people can do. Some people, especially in this world where it grows harder and harder of being able to give an apologetic defense of creation and evolution and the existence of God and things like that, not everybody's got that in the bag. Not everybody's able to do that. That's, you know, the work of people like Doctor Brad Harab, you know, books like convicted. That's really great. And it's wonderful to have resources like that. But people aren't going to have that stuff memorized or just the, the philosophies that are out there, the postmodernism, the. I have my own truth. Those are hard things to counter, those are hard things to discuss. And there is a reason why you have people with the expertise. And so as we talk about preachers, elders, things like that, it's important to have those people. And so for the average person it might just be inviting somebody. And if they have that opportunity, they should. If you can give a brief explanation of the gospel or even your own story, we in the church of Christ don't do our testimony. That much of why I'm saved, why I became a Christian or whatever, those are useful things to tell why you became a Christian and explaining to them why they should because of why you did and things like that. But just generally speaking, this is not the, the role given to everybody. You should help bring people to the Lord. But as far as being a plant, the seed, water it, do the whole thing stem to stern evangelist. No, I don't think everybody has that. And that's one of the reasons for this episode is so many christians feel guilty. Oh man, I just, I'm not bringing people to the Lord. [00:53:14] Speaker C: Okay. [00:53:15] Speaker B: Are you doing your job well? Are you loving your family well? Are you a good part of your community? Are you doing those parts well? That's the good works prepared for you. If evangelism does come to your doorstep, if the opportunity is there, yeah, go for it, for sure. But that's my answer. [00:53:30] Speaker C: Will, Robert, you guys said everything I was going to say. There was a comment I think we had recently on one of our reference, the deep end for the third time. I think this episode where I think it was a mom who talked about feeling guilty because doesn't have the opportunity and doesn't get to go out and do a ton of evangelism. It's just kind of the guilt that she felt. And I think one of the things that we brought up is that there should be absolutely zero guilt there, because as a christian wife and a mom, you are evangelizing every single day, by the way, that you parent your kids. You are discipling, you are making disciples every single day. My mom was very big on this, of, like, people asking her, are you going to go speak at women's days? Are you going to go out and do this? And when we were young, she's like, no, my mission field is right here. My mission field is within my home. And I always appreciated that perspective and that viewpoint. And I do wish that a lot of christians had that similar viewpoint of it. Take every opportunity that you have, if a door is slightly open to invite somebody to church or to even study the Bible with somebody or to strike up a conversation about, again, why you're so joyful about, you know, XYZ cultural event and what you think of that. And you can offer your biblical perspective and take every opportunity that you can for that. I've had people that have asked me when I was in a bit of a rougher work environment, hey, why don't you cuss? I've never heard you cuss, man. Take those opportunities. That's exactly what you should be doing. At the same time, your perspective, your viewpoint needs to be, I am making disciples. I am evangelizing every single day by being a good dad. By the way, I'm teaching my kids the bible time at night that I'm having with my kids the memory verses that I'm having. Um, my kids memorize all these things. That is evangelism. That is the next question on here. That is bearing fruit. That's what bearing fruit looks like. And once again, not to disparage anybody who is making evangelism a focus, we need good christian evangelists. We need people who go out and, and do the door knocking and the people who are literally paid to go out and reach people with the gospel. That's, that's fantastic. That's also just as fantastic as the wife and husband who are doing everything they can to raise faithful kids. That's, that's bearing fruit. That's disciple making as well. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Right? And we have to look at it as a gift. That doesn't mean, oh, you, you're, you've got a past to not care about it, but there's different parts for different people, the same way a body has different functions that they were all supposed to do so. As we're going to run out of time here, I'm just going to wrap on that idea of the kingdom that Joe hinted at earlier. It's a different way of viewing the church. If we view the church, and I think this is the way it's generally viewed, as the world is a sinking ship and the church's job is to get people off of that sinking ship and keep them afloat on the life raft until we get to go to heaven. If you think of it as the leaven, as that, that illustration that Jesus used in a parable, if you think about the great commission, if you think about God, Jesus as king of kings and lord lords, this is his world that he sent into to infiltrate and change and be the light of the world, be the salt of the earth and bring change, then you think about, we need to go. You establish a church in a town, you send the Christians out to infiltrate that town and make it into a christian society. When you think about in Israel where it says they're supposed to be a kingdom of priests, that didn't mean everybody was going to live in the tabernacle or the temple. It meant everywhere you were that there was priestly worship around. Well, they didn't get to that point, but we are that. That your priestly service, as we looked at in romans twelve one, is going and doing your job where you are and being Christian light and changing your community for the better. And so you're thinking not just towards heaven, but you're thinking towards, hey, we can do God's will on earth as it is in heaven. And that's part of the Christian's job, that's part of the kingdom is changing the world around us and not just thinking heavenward. And so when we talk about, well, make disciples, make disciples, it's to do that. It's to go have mature christians in the bakery, in the bank, in the grocery store, in the the field, in the electrician's role in the carpentry field. And whatever it may be, that you've got christians infiltrating each of those places with the light of the gospel, making them better places, better craftsmanship, better work, the world is a better place. And as we've seen through history, when that happens, it works. And so stop thinking so esoterically, so spiritually, so well, when we get to heaven, it'll all be fixed. Fix things. Now, by thinking about Christianity in this way and not over spiritualizing everything. [00:57:47] Speaker A: That'S a great way to wrap. It's playing a long game. It's playing a long game. You have to realize this. We can't just go settle for the short term. We are playing a long game in this. [00:57:57] Speaker B: I had a brief point. I know we got a rap when you watch a basketball game and a team's down by like ten in the fourth quarter, and they think, well, we got to get ten points back. And so they just go and just throw up three pointers. I mean, just bad shots. But, like, man, we need a three. We need a three. But if you have enough time, take the time, go get a good shot, set it up, pass it around until you get a good shot, and then you're closer, you're. You're down eight points. You play some defense, you. You realize, I don't have to do all this at once. We don't play the long game. We think, well, we just got to get as many people in the door as possible right now. Think generationally, think this is going to go on after I'm here, I'm going to put down roots, that this can go on for a long time. [00:58:33] Speaker C: Just one final aspect, you know, to add on to that, that is the idea that we've talked about before also of just getting people in the water and, all right, cool, check it off and move on. No. Disciple making is a process. Baptism should be the first step. But if it's, especially if it's somebody who's completely unchurched, there should be a lot of teaching that follows that, a lot of study that should come with that, a lot of continuing on to. I mean, Jesus's apostles spent three years with him and still had a lot of things that they needed, you know, to work on. They. They ran from Jesus as soon as he, you know, as soon as he got betrayed in the garden of Gethsemane. And so just to speak to that point of kind of rushing everything and just chucking up a bunch of threes, let's give people in the water. Give people in the water. Give people the water. Awesome. How much of that is lasting where, how much of that is truly going to make disciples? And so that would just be the only thing that I would add to that. But I want to thank Jack for putting this together because at first it's like, absolutely, you know, we're talking about the priesthood of all believers. Like man, that's going to make for a great episode. [00:59:29] Speaker A: All right. [00:59:29] Speaker B: I can tell you guys are real excited about it. [00:59:32] Speaker C: Like, man. But no, I think the stuff we've discussed here is, I think probably what a lot of christians are struggling with. Once again, that question that a lot of them have of how do I live as a christian every single day. I'm not a preacher. I'm not a missionary. I'm not an evangelist. I can't go out and door knock for 40 hours a week. How? What do I do? How do I do it? And so I think this was a much needed discussion. Jack did a great job putting it together. So I really hope if you have a question, if you have a comment, that you'll leave, you know, the appropriate feedback for us. [00:59:58] Speaker B: Let's. Let's talk about the bare fruit thing in the deep end a little bit. We kind of skimmed over it because that was when I wrote an article on every Christian's role in evangelism. The first thing I got was, well, it says we're supposed to bear fruit. Every Christian supposed to bear fruit. And if you don't bear fruit, you're not a Christian. That has a lot of people thinking, well, I didn't get anybody baptized, so I'm not really a Christian. Okay, well, what does it mean? So we'll get into that on the deep end. Anything else for this one? All right, we will talk to you guys next time. Thanks for listening.