[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign welcome into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. I am one of your co hosts, Will Harab, joined by Joe and Jack Wilkey. Excited to bring you a special episode today. Some really good content, really good outline that we've got put together. Hopefully some really good discussion. We'll intro that here in just a second. I did want to make everybody aware we mentioned it, I believe, at the end of our last episode. And so we wanted to kind of kick this episode off discussing it. And that is we have a benefit dinner for FOCUS Press coming up here at the end of the month, February 28, starting at 6pm at Highland Heights Church of Christ in Lebanon. If you listen to us, support us if you, if you enjoy the work that the material that we put out there, if you believe in and believe in and support our work, we want to encourage you to come out on again February 28th. It's a Friday night to the Highland Heights Church of Christ, Lebanon, Tennessee. Fairly central location here in Middle Tennessee. And so if you're able to, if you happen to be free on that Friday night, we would love to, we would love to meet you, we'd love to to see you. If you want to, like I said, spend your Friday night that way, come on out to the Highland Heights Church of Christ. We're going to be presenting some stuff having to do with it with plans for the future where, where we have been the last couple years. And yeah, it's going to be a really, really good time, going to be a good meal and just going to be an enjoyable evening. So again, want to invite you to that February 28th at Highland Heights Church of Christ starting, I believe at 6pm is the plan. And we'll, we'll continue to mention it a few other times and of course there'll be stuff on social media. It's focuspress.org benefit if you'd like to go ahead and register and get you a spot focuspress.org benefit with that. Guys, let's go ahead and get into this very robust outline that we have today, kind of on the the eve, if you will, not literally the eve, but a couple days before Valentine's Day. We have done kind of holiday centered episodes before gen, generally talking about the, you know, should we celebrate it, that being, you know, Halloween. And then we've obviously done Christmas before and this one is not necessarily a hey guys, is it a should we or should we not celebrate Valentine's Day? Is that wrong? That's not exactly what we're going to be doing with this episode. But we wanted to do something kind of centered around that idea. And it's, to be honest, it's territory that we have not covered before. As far as I know, and as far as I can remember, we have not really covered anything about this. And that is kind of how to find a spouse. The. The general ways that Christians go about trying to find a spouse. I know a lot of our listeners are parents of. Of children, maybe parents of young children, and so might be a little ways from that as the three of us are with our young kids. However, if you're like me, that is something you think about is how are my kids going to find their spouse? How are my kids going to go go out there and meet people and they can eventually find their spouse? A lot of different ways that they can do that. And so we're going to get into some of those different ways. What ways are healthy, what ways are unhealthy? What are some of the pitfalls with the whole finding a spouse dynamic, so to speak. And I do think this is an interesting topic for a lot of us because we all find our spouse different ways. Everybody has a very unique story on how they found their spouse. And once again, we're just going to kind of get into some.
Some good discussions, some good questions about the idea of how to find your spouse. So, guys, any introductory thoughts before we get into kind of the first section here? Tried to lay out the intro there, but any introductory thoughts?
[00:03:33] Speaker B: I was just looking briefly, just for the fun of it, where Valentine's Day originated, because we were talking about. That made me think, will. Well, we're talking about the other ones of pagan origins and things like that. Like, where do we even get this? I think it's Ron Swanson that says it's created by Hallmark. Is it Ron Swanson, one of those says it's created by Hallmark to sell cards. I could see it. You know, it's such a commercialized holiday. I don't understand the whole point of it. Love is in the air. Okay, that's great. Why in the world on February 14? They say it potentially goes back to a Roman festival a long time ago, but it started in the 1840s and you started growing in popularity.
[00:04:11] Speaker C: Pagan origins. There you go. We can. Yeah, Sorry, honey. Chocolate now.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. St. Valentine, with the marrying. Secretly marrying people in defiance of. He was executed for it, finds the Emperor Claudius II going back to St. Valentine. So, you know, just a little trivia there for everybody. Thought that was interesting, but yeah, obviously, yeah. Love is in the air. We're talking about it. And. And Will, as you said, we covered the singleness episode. We've covered some marital things. We try to steer clear from some of those because we're not experts. You know, we've been. Jack, you and I have been married for eight years. You're coming up on nine here in not too long, and Will for five years. And so in no way are we experts on this. Will and I also married young. We're going to get that out of the way as well. We don't want this to be a. Well, we know what it's like. Genuinely, we don't. Will, I think you were 19. I was 22. Jack, you were 26.
[00:05:01] Speaker C: I want to say almost 27.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, almost 27. So you had the longest stint of singlehood. We are not coming from on high telling everybody, like, oh, it's nice and easy. We were incredibly blessed to find our spouses when we did. This is a challenge. This is something that you see a lot more of these days where people are just struggling to find good Christian people to marry, you know, so that we go to various different options. We're going to get into those options, kind of break down what we think about it. But, yeah, those are just. My introductory thoughts is. I think this is a common struggle for a lot of people these days. But. Jack, any thoughts?
[00:05:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess as the resident guy who was single, lived alone, all that you hear people call Valentine's Day, you know, sad Singles Awareness Day. And I. I never had that view toward it. It. I don't think that helps you. I don't think, you know, the wallowing of, oh, I'm just on my. And I know it's kind of a joke, but I also know it can be hard. It's like, oh, man, everybody's. You kind of avoid the restaurants because everyone's out there with their spouse, with their boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, having a great time. And like, here I am by myself to pick up an order to go and watch, you know, Netflix at home by myself kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, that. That can be. I certainly can empathize with that. That can be hard. On the other hand, it's not something to wallow in. There's. There's always that hope. And the other thing I wanted to say is this is not just an episode for single people, and we'd like to hear from, you know, if you got married in the last few years, it's a changing landscape, so it might be interesting things for you or you might have things to share. But especially for parents, I'm all. I mean, I've got a six year old and as the oldest, and there's still kind of this thought of, like, what is it gonna look like in, you know, 12, 15, 20, or whatever it may be for them for my kids to find a spouse. Like, what? How do I help prepare them for that? How do I open the doors to meet people? Like, it's not. It used to be so easy, you know, like, there's. You're in your little town, you got the people who are there. That's your stock to pick from. And now there's this kind of.
You're overwhelmed by so many options that sometimes you end up with none of them. And so, yeah, I think for parents, for singles, there's a lot of different directions that this episode, I think, can benefit.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: I was going to say Gloria's ready to marry my son.
[00:07:21] Speaker C: Yeah, Keep playing to them. No. Even though your cousin's your best buddy, that's not how that works.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: We're in the South, I suppose. But. No, just kidding. Just kidding. So let's jump in. I wanted to spell out the problem with some statistics that I had pulled up just to tell people in case a lot of people are aware of this, but just in case you're not aware of, like, how difficult or how much the landscape has shifted on marriage rates. In 2021, only 6% of U.S. adults are married by age 21. That was down from about 1/3 in 1980. They said the median age of marriage for men increased from 23 in 1970 to about 30 in 2021, from 21 in 1970 for women to about 28. The age 28 in 2021 as the median age of marriage.
Yeah. The share of U.S. adults who married by age 25 dropped from nearly 2/3 to 22% from the 80s to 2000. 2021. So 40 years, you go from 66% to 22%.
Just.
It's crazy. They also studies show that divorce. Divorce odds are higher for young marriages, but decline until age 32. So things steady out there, but you're not getting married until almost 30. So if you are getting married, divorce is really bad. If you are not getting, you know, if you say, hey, I don't want to get divorced, then you just push marriage off. And then you get to this point where, man, you went to college, you lived your life, you did all of these things, you've pushed marriage off. You wanted to be settled, you wanted to get into your career. All those things. Then you go, I'm lonely. I want to start a family. Maybe you're 27, 28, 29, 30. This is getting to the average age of those in America.
Where do you find them? Where do you go from here? And as we said, that's really where we wanted to spend the majority of the discussion is just some of the usual ways. So. Well, I'm going to kick you off on this discussion of some of the usual ways to find a spouse in today's day and age.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So I guess maybe the most obvious one, and we'll get to a couple more here in a second. But the most most obvious one will be college. I think that's where. And it's, it's interesting with, with us, our audience primarily being Church of Christ. I know we have a lot of people that listen that aren't necessarily church Christ, and we're very happy that you're here to listen to us. It is kind of a trope sometimes that people within the Church of Christ treat going off to college, treat the Christian universities, places like Freed, Hardeman and Harding and places like that as basically find a spouse camp. Like, you know, you hear the jokes about they went to get their Mrs. Degree and, and you know, not so much really focused on an education, not really focused so much on, you know, started for the guys starting a, a career path based on the type of degree you get. Again, it's, it's kind of a, everybody's, you know, joking around and it's kind of common like, yeah, going to find a spouse, I'm going to, to find somebody to marry. And I guess the first question I have on that, obviously, you know, there's a lot of people, a lot of our listeners, I'm sure probably found their spouse either at college or sometime within that college age range of like 18 to 22. You're there for four years, you meet a lot of people. That's generally you're of marriageable age at that point. So generally just kind of naturally that's where a lot of people meet their spouse. And the only, the discussion question that I have for you guys, I'll throw it out to you is is it a good idea to treat college as again, kind of find a spouse camp? And it's, it's one of those Church of Christ inside jokes of once again go off to Freed. And it's not to get an education, it's to find a spouse. And many people don't come out and necessarily say that, but that's generally what it is a lot of times. And so I'm just curious if you guys think that's a good idea. We, we have shared our thoughts before on college in general, Christian colleges in general. That's not really the type of discussion we're trying to have right now, just more so the, the question of should college be the place that we identify and target and say this is where this four year window at this university, this location is where I really hope my kids can find somebody to marry. What are your guys thoughts on that?
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I, I think it's kind of one of those you're going to get an education anyway, so let's send you two birds one stone, we'll send you somewhere. And I think that's why a lot of parents steer their kids in those directions. And I mean I know people build lifelong friendships on top of having, you know, a spouse out of the experience and all that. And there's a value to that and someone where your faith is shared. Although we've expressed our concerns with, I don't know, I'd say the majority of schools in the churches of Christ as places where you might be compromised. Like there might be issues there. The other thing that's kind of a challenge here is, you know, especially if the girl wants to be a wife and a mom and stay at home mom or whatever, you might rack up 800, $120,000 of student loan debt that you're both going to be buried under for the first 20, 25 years of your marriage because he's going to have his student loan debt. If you didn't both get scholarships and things like that, that's a challenge. And so like that's, is that the, almost the bride price these days, the price that a family has to pay to get their, their child married off. Whereas I mean on the other hand I went and got my master's degree through a Christian school, not master, my bachelor's degree.
I went to preaching school but I also went and got a bachelor's in business through online.
Came out with a degree. It was a fraction of the cost. But you don't meet anybody that way. It's not, not exactly conducive to that. And so I get like, I get the appeal in that. But it is one of those you do need to consider a, away from family. You send your, your kids six hours away. You don't really.
And not that you're, it's not arranged marriage, but on the other hand you don't know what kind of crowd they're going to fall in with. You don't know if their. Their ability to pick like you want them to be able to pick well, but you also want the input. We're going to talk about that a little bit later on of the input of trusted mentors and friends and stuff like that. Well, I don't know. You go and become a different person as you're kind of shaped by this experience.
Maybe you don't pick that well. Maybe it's not the person you would have picked otherwise, or whatever it may be. I mean, there's considerations to have, but on the other hand, I know a whole lot of people who are happy that way, but there, there's the student loan debt. There's other considerations. Joe, what did you have?
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's going to be one of the best places where you're going to find a bunch of people your age that are Christians.
There's so many pitfalls with it, though, of are they truly Christians? I know people that have gone to Freed that were rooming with lesbians didn't know it. You know, this is at Freed and at Harding, where there was abortions taking place and all sorts of stuff. Like, you don't know that you're going to find the.
You're assuming everybody showing up kind of on the same spiritual level. That's not always the case. You got to be very choosy when you get there. And that's something that people can avoid while you're there. They can, they can navigate that.
Yeah, the.
I feel like it's kind of like Disney World or Disneyland where when you walk in, you're kind of suspended from reality to a certain degree when you walk into Christian college. And yes, I was online, too, so people may look at and go, what do you know about this?
Best I can tell, it seems like you were cocooned from reality. You're on mom and Dad's dime or you're on student loans. You're not really paying for a whole lot. Maybe you're working your job, but it's just a ton of fun. You're going to. To have fun. The parties aren't like, you know, nothing crazy. Usually at Christian colleges, you're going to those things, social clubs and such. You're just cocooned from reality. So when you find somebody that happens to love the same reality that you're in this little cocoon. Yeah, that's fantastic. Does it always translate out? I mean, we got probably a ton of listeners that found their spouse that way and are probably happily married. Good for them. So clearly it works for some. I just think that's something that you have to be very careful with, that you're not just attracted to. This is the first time I'm out on my own, first time I have freedom, first time I can date without my parents really knowing who I'm dating. And unfortunately this is. There's a rapid increase in sex outside of marriage, especially at colleges, even in Christian colleges.
So all of those things are considerations like I don't know where else you're going to find that concentrated of a, of a dose, so to speak, of young people. On the other hand, yeah, there are absolute risks involved, but there are risks involved with every single one we have on the list. Well, I'm curious your thoughts on this though because yeah, I would say you didn't go to Freed, you didn't go to Harding. On the other hand, you've lived down here, you've had tons of friends that since you've lived close to Freed, tons of friends go there and such. What are your thoughts on this?
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean obviously you guys kind of already brought up the pros and cons element to it and I think the pros are pretty obvious. The idea that you ideally are going to have more people within a concentrated area who think like you, who believe in God, who are either Christians or you know, faith based, so to speak. And I know that there's going to be people that maybe aren't but overall like I do think that that is a pro for sure. Is that you for four years you're. It's basically a big church camp essentially for four years which you know, has its own cons. But I think as far as finding a spouse that that's probably a, a good thing. The con for me that is kind of the kicker is the lack of supervision. And Joe, you just kind of spoke to this already. But the idea that hey, I'm 19 years old, I find somebody I really like and we can pretty much do whatever we want because mom and dad are four hours away.
If you've got a very self disciplined kid, that's one thing and that, you know, hopefully they'll do better. Most 19 year olds are not self disciplined enough to make that not a problem. And so again I, I think overall I would probably be ner, let's just put it this way, I would be nervous about my kid finding a spouse that way. And it's not because you can't, it's not because they're bad people at college necessarily. Again, a lot of Our listeners, I'm sure, went this route for me personally, as I think about my 3 year old in, in 15 years, not that I planned on sending him off to a Christian school, but if I did, that would be nervous to me, is that not just that he finds somebody who maybe I'm. Is not that great of a person.
They're again, not going to have a lot of supervision. They're going to be by themselves for four years, essentially able to do whatever they want. And so the opportunity is just rife for, for sexual, for sexual temptation for, for doing things that they shouldn't do. And so that's kind of my general thought surrounding it. I want to move into the online discussion because obviously that is a pretty big way that people find a spouse nowadays is through online, is through the Internet, through online. And that can take a lot of different forms. You've obviously got websites themselves, Church of Christ Singles, where, you know, you create a profile and, you know, you connect with other people who are single. And I'm sure that there's stuff like that for every denomination. There's dating apps, of course, that, you know, a couple years ago around Covid were especially booming, especially popular. And then there's social media. It ties into that one. But, you know, you hear stories about young people meeting their significant other through Snapchat or, you know, Tinder is a big thing. And so, guys, I want to kick us off into this discussion. I made y'all go first on the other two, man. This one, you have to be very careful with finding somebody through online. I know people that are like, I don't care how desperate I am, I will never, you know, create myself a profile on a dating app or whatever it is. And the one thing that I'll say, I, you know, have never been in the shoes of somebody who was in their, you know, maybe late 20s or early 30s and not married. I. I'm not going to say that I would never, you know, if I'm just. If I'm at the point where I'm like, man, I really want to get married. I have not found anybody. I'm sure Church Christ Singles is a. Is a great, great program. You know, kind of connects you with people. That's the whole point of it. I don't think there's a huge problem with that. What I have a problem with is more so the we met over Instagram or we met over. Over Snapchat. We met good. You know, Christians probably shouldn't be on Tinder. Let's just go ahead and get that out there. But stuff like that, where I do think that is dangerous. And mainly for the reason of what is the relationship. Getting started off on pretty much all physical attraction, pretty much all, you know, how does this person look? You know, how does this person present themselves? And odds are, if it's a dating site, if it's a, you know, profile like that, they're putting their absolute best face forward. Their face is, you know, full of makeup. They're going to be, you know, put all the best things about them, you know, all the, all the things that they're really good at. And I don't know, it just seems very fake to me. And you're. And again, somebody might be listening going, wow, well, that's pretty idealistic, Mr. Married at 19. You didn't have to do any of that. I understand that that's going to be the, you know, maybe retort for some people, but it just, it feels like a very fake world where. And sure, you can find somebody like that on a, on a site like that, but man, again, you're putting all the good stuff about yourself, the really good pictures.
You're not. It just feels like a very fake way to get to know somebody, whether it be an app or Snapchat or Instagram or whatever it is. So I'm kind of out on it. I will not be steering my kids towards finding somebody through online means, regardless of their age. But, Joe, looks like you have some thoughts. I'll hand it to you.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: No, it's just thinking like when the first words are not like, oh, she's sweet, she seems very nice, you know, oh, we got some good mutual connection, whatever. Wow, she's hot. All right, let me, let me swipe right on this or whatever it is. I don't even know how it works, but, like, even on Snapchat. Never been on Snapchat, but I gotta hit her up, you know, she's hot. There's a level of attractiveness that's always going to start a relationship.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: I was gonna say any. Just about anybody who's been married is seeing somebody across the room, like, oh, wow, I want to go say hi to that person. I mean, like. And so it's not that. Now the Instagram, Snapchat thing, where it can be like hyper focused on that. Yeah, that's not as great. But as far as a profile picture, and it's like, oh, okay, well, that's the same way it would happen in person.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Sure, sure. I think there's a level of attraction there that obviously is important. That's obviously going to be the start. But when the.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: And we're going to get into more of that here in a few minutes.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: But yeah, but I think, yes, the shallowness of looking through an Instagram and going, man, this is the one type of thing you get hyper fixated on it or it's always the best foot forward where you, you're not really seeing in person, you're just seeing the filters on Instagram, whatever it is. I think that can be very harmful. On the other hand, yeah, it's difficult out there. Which way are you going to find them? Right. So of course you're going to be looking for people that are single and good looking and yeah, you're going to end up gravitating online because everything gravitates to being online. The Church Christ Singles, actually we know the guy that started Church Christ Singles and he wanted to meet somebody and he just built his own website and got people involved and found his wife through his own website.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Like that's kind of a flex. Like I'm just gonna say, yeah, I'll.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Just, I'll just do that now. He just keeps it running. He's been married, happily married. I think he has 10 kids. Gonna keep run. Good guy. But anyway, yeah, it's a.
For things like that. The problem is, and this is the feather in the cab of college.
When you go to college, there is the assumption that you are actually there to work, you're actually there to, to go to school. Everybody kind of knows. Yeah, it'd be nice to find a spouse. When you get on one of these sites, will you use the word? I think the common theme would be desperation and I don't think that's fair to say all the time, but that's just the perception of it. Oh, you must be desperate to go on there. And I feel bad, I genuinely feel bad for some of those people that some of them don't care. Okay, yeah, I am desperate. I'd really like to find a spouse. And that's, you know, good for them that they're willing to kind of go past the.
[00:22:39] Speaker C: I don't, I never made a profile or you know, got her, you know, got on those sites or anything that's fair to them. It's kind of like if you're hungry, you go shopping. If you need, you know, clothes, you go to the store. If you like, you want to get married. And so it's kind of one of those, like, well, you shouldn't have to do that. Like, well, in this world where it's not what it used to be. You don't find the, the local boy, you know, in your hometown kind of thing. Sure, yeah. I mean, like, that's one of the things you avail yourself of. And so I don't, I don't. I think that's one of the issues is there's kind of that stigma of like, oh, you're on. There must. Things must be real bad. You must be real desperate. Like.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Right. And that's what I'm saying. I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's fair. I think that's a, that's an unfair stigma to put on the people that are on these that are looking like, well, you got to look somewhere. If you didn't go to college or even if you did and you didn't find somebody, there's got to be somewhere.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: There'S a resource that's been made for this. Yeah, I mean, that's right.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: I think my, my beef is more with the apps like Jack. If you're obviously. And you're planning on having a lot more of a hand in your kids relationships, I'm sure. But hypothetically, let's say Gloria came to you and said she met this boy on, you know, Instagram or something, you're probably gonna go, don't really love that. As opposed. And I think maybe we should have separated these out. But like, I think Church of Christ singles is very much different than meeting somebody on Snapchat.
[00:23:53] Speaker C: Absolutely.
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[email protected] yeah, and one of the advantages of those dating sites, the ones some of them have compatibility tests and, like, personality, like, what are your values? What do you care about? What matters to you? We're not going to set you up with somebody who's the opposite of you. And in fact, I. One of my dad's real close friends met his wife on there on. I think it was eharmony or one of those. Yeah. And wonderful couple. You know, they're really a great match. And so you're kind of clearing some of the hurt because it's so hard to meet people. And then when you do, it feels like you might be wasting your time on somebody that you don't have much in common with or you're going to hit a roadblock of a major disagreement on something or whatever. And so there is that advantage of, okay, you see, okay, that person is, you know, attractive.
And also, we share religious values, share political values, share cultural values, share interests or whatever it may be. And not that you have to have 100% agreement on everything, but you need the big things. And so you're kind of, again, it's saving you some time. And so there's definitely some advantages to something like that in this day and age. If, especially after the college years, you know, like, you're looking your mid-20s, it's getting harder and harder to find people.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:57] Speaker C: I mean, I think that's a great tool.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: And. And I like that. And I think this is what separates the apps from that, is there's a lot more that goes into these sites is the compatibility portion of it. It's not just like, oh, man, let me just scroll. Like, she's got 300 pictures on here, you know. No, you get a picture, too on some of those. You get a few pictures. But more than anything, you're matched based off of the connection that you have off of some of these answers. Like, you're not going to be getting somebody who is super hot, but she's an atheist. No, you share common values, these specific common values. And then you can say she's really attractive, you know, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna reach out to her. We have these things in common. Clearly, our profiles match. That is way different than the only thing that matters. I'm gonna slide into her DMs. The only thing that matters is that she's really pretty on here. That's way different. So I like the compatibility element of it. And yeah, we know a few couples that were married on eharmony that seemed to have really good marriages and matched them pretty well. And church Christ singles as well. I think there's there's some really good stories from that. And so I'm not, yeah. Kind of to wrap up this portion of it. I don't think it's bad in the least. I think it's unfair to talk about the, the stigma of they're all desperate. I just think people are looking for a spouse and trying every, every way possible. And I would say stick to the online. As you said, Will, we're not a big fan of. You don't have to listen to us per se. But we're not just a big fan of the Instagram, Snapchat, the Tinder, the, you know, whatever it may be.
Make sure there's some depth there in that. But fellas, we also add on here church events as the next one. If you go from.
[00:27:28] Speaker C: It's very funny because my, like my marriage is a hybrid of kind of those two things in that I actually connected first with my mother in law before my wife and it was in the Focus Press discussion group on Facebook and there was a discussion and she was, you know, laying out kind of their family values and homeschooling and things, things we shared in common. And she had a family picture. I was like, wow, their daughter's really pretty. And then there was the. They still have these legacy family camp the first year to Focus Press was involved in and Joe, you were there. We, when we went down there, their family went down there, met Allison and her whole family and here we are, you know, four kids later and all these years later, you know, it was kind of a little bit of both. It's you find like minded people online and you find the places like minded people are going to go hang out, conferences, camps, lectureships, whatever it may be. Yeah, that's a good thing to avail yourself of.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: It's. Yeah.
I was just going to say once again, you got the single singleness classes and the stigma of walking in a singleness class. At some point you got to say, man, I do want to be married. You know, I do want to go meet like minded people. I want to be there when you walk into ptp. Avail yourself of those things. Doesn't mean that. And the problem is you walk into PTP and then you go to the next lectureship or there's now two PTPs and you're going to see the same people potentially in the same one. That's okay. Go there, make connections. You may make some really good friends. Even if there's not a spouse per se, you may make some really good friends and you may meet people at Those lectureships that know somebody. Oh yeah, I know a guy or I know a girl. I think you'd be really good with them. So there are multiple ways that this could work other than just man, I struck out at the singles class, like get involved at those places and talk to a lot of people and make friends and connections and then that kind of gets to the next one, which I don't know will. I want your thoughts on this one. But the mutual connections of friends is the fourth way we talked about and I think that can be bolstered based off of going to these events and such.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a fan of this one.
We've shared our gripes, I suppose with lectureship culture in general and I think there's discussion for another day again that we've had before of why some of those things are a bit unhealthy. But as far as finding a spouse goes, I, I'm a big fan of this one. Just because you're getting in person, you're meeting people face to face, there's not the digital screen in front of you where a lot of the first impressions have to be made.
And listen, if you're going to a Christian lectureship, Christian conference, whatever it is, this is very much less likely of, you know, Joe, what you brought up with college of like you might not have a very, a faithful Christian going to a faithful Christian school. Odds are if this person's going to ptp, if this person's going to a Christian conference, they're going to be pretty solid. Doesn't mean they're perfect, doesn't mean they don't have, you know, you know, there's all, there's obviously exceptions everywhere but man, if they're spending money, taking time out of their, out of their work week to go to a place like this, you're all, you know, you're already going to be around somebody who's like minded, somebody who is prioritizing the right things. And so yeah, I, I'm, I'm a fan of this one as just a, an alternative to some of these other ones we talked about. Like, hey, I know there's going to be thousands and thousands of people at ptp, a lot of them single. I'll, I'll go, you know, and yes, for the spiritual growth and for the lessons and all that. But also, you know, maybe I'll find a spouse. I think there's any shame in that. I think that that's a very good plus side of lectureships and, and things like that. And so I Mean, Jack, you just kind of shared part of your story there. And, and interestingly enough, Joe, not to speak for you, you technically met your wife through one of these as well. Obviously way before y'all ever got together. But through the Tahoe family encampment, it's a, it's a cool way for Christians to meet. It's a cool way for connections to be made, I guess is my point. And so I think it's a, a very, very good option. Not, not that it's the end, end all, be all. But the last one we have on here is mutual connections. And I had a question for you guys too, I didn't put on here. What are your guys's thoughts on setups? People setting you up with somebody. Let's say you're a single person in this sweet, you know, 50 year old lady said, oh, I need to set you up with my granddaughter or grandson or whatever it is. There's a bit of a stigma around that as well. Like, oh my goodness, another. Another setup. These never go well. That's kind of where my mind went with this mutual connections thing of you know somebody, one of your, one of your connections you already have know somebody who thinks you might be really good with.
Curious Yalls thoughts on that and how that's. And kind of what you think would. Is that a good thing or not?
[00:32:00] Speaker C: I know it can be a little wearying and, or discouraging. It certainly can be awkward like if, if they're not working out. But on the other hand, it's just extra shots, you know, extra kicks at the can kind of thing. You don't know everybody. You don't. There's people you just. That other people know that you don't. Good Christian people and things like that. Now if, if somebody tries two or three times to set you up with somebody and each time it's like me and this person share no values. Like they don't. This would not be a fit at all. Okay, maybe start taking that person's suggestions with a grain of salt. But not, you know, again, it's. It's just opportunity.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: I'm gonna say I like the connections more from those that know you better know what you're looking for, know your values rather than the 50 year old sweet one to church. It's great. She knows nothing. She just knows you're single, that's all. She doesn't know what you stand for. It's not that it has to be a perfect connection all the time or it's got to be like some. Your Best friend setting you up. On the other hand, I would. Yeah, I think there's more weight to your best friend that knows you very well going, hey, I got this guy at work. He's, you know what, Whatever it may be, but as you said, Jack, it's more. More shots out there. You know, why not. Why not just put yourself out there and try? Because even if it is, yes, the first date can be awkward. Even if it doesn't end up working out, though, like you are working toward.
Maybe you're getting better at first dates. Maybe you're getting better at awkward conversations. Maybe you're getting better at knowing more of what you want and when to say no and things like that. So each one presents an opportunity, even if the opportunity isn't necessarily to get married. There are opportunities to grow from. From the. From this one. But I like the mutual connections because it assumes other people are looking out for you. People need to know you are single. Yes. You want to be married. You know, if you have anybody in mind, anybody that you think might be a good match, I'm open to. To give it a shot to go on a, you know, first date, whatever it may be. I think that's a.
I like this one. People are praying for you. People are thinking about you. People are trying to set you up. Yeah, you're going to have a few that just don't go well, but at the end of the day, it's coming from a good heart where people really do want to get you set up and want to help you in your life. And I like that. Doesn't mean that it's always going to work out, but it's good to have other people focusing on this for you, praying so you're not dealing with your loneliness or with your. With your being alone, alone, you know, your singlehood in a lonely way. Like, we want to make sure that other people are included, where you have a lot of friends to the best of your ability. And I think this is a good one for that. Fellas, that does kick off. We've had a discussion. I want to keep this one brief. It does kick off a very brief discussion on dating, courtship, intentional dating. I mentioned going on a first date. Some people are going to look at it and say, courtship. Courtship's going to be more when the dad is involved. It's obviously more for the kids. When you're talking teenagers, maybe early 20s type of thing, that goes out the window at college because they don't know the parents. A lot of times the online, it's Difficult for parents to oversee the online. So a lot of these ways, even going to these lectureships, courtship can be done once you get home, contact the dad, things like that. What are your thoughts on that, though, especially when it comes to singlehood? We're probably talking to people that are in their mid-20s, people getting closer to the median age there.
Dating, intentional dating, courtship. Where do you guys fall? Have you changed any opinions in the last year or two since we recorded that?
[00:35:09] Speaker A: I'm very curious, Jack's thoughts on this, just because. So Joe, you've got on here. How much should the parents be involved and when do they stop having a say? Is it at 18? Is it, you know, when they move out of the house? Because, you know, the idea that I've, you know, we've pushed before of kind of, you know, call it whatever you want, intentional dating, courtship, call it whatever, just, you know, very supervised, never alone together. Both sets of parents are very involved. You know, a few other hallmarks, I guess going to the dad would be one of them. That's a lot easier when the, the young man or the young woman is 19, 20 years old, 18, so still living at home. What about when you get to Jack? You know, Jack, when you were, got married, you were 20. What about when you get to your mid-20s? What about when you get to your late 20s? Are you still going to be, you know, odds are you're probably living by yourself at that point if you're the guy. And so are you going to be calling up your parents saying, hey, just wanted to check and make sure it was okay? No, probably not. Like, there is just an element of you're on your own, you're living on your own, you're going to pursue a, a spouse, not out of the realm of supervision of your parents. But again, if you're in your late 20s, you're probably not going to be near as supervised as you were when you were 19, 20 years old. Like, Joe, like you were. Like I was, because I was still living at home. So I don't, I'm gonna be honest, I don't really know where this goes with somebody who is out of the house and moved on because the, all the principles and all the reasons for why we would steer away, away from regular dating are still in place. I mean, the sexual temptation is still going to be high regardless of your age. The, the opportunities, if you're by yourselves all the time are still going to be there. And so it's not like the reasons go away necessarily, but I feel like the, the execution of it just gets a lot more messy. If you got, say, a 29 year old who's found somebody that he or she really wants to pursue, no longer living at home and kind of on their own makes it difficult. Jack, what thoughts do you have? I mean, obviously this would apply to you because you were living couple states away at this point. So what do you think are best practices here? And, and what is your answer to Joe's question of like, how much should the parent. When do the parents get to stop having a say?
[00:37:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, my wife's family, her parents were still involved, you know, thankfully. And, you know, I was preaching living alone in the parsonage there at the church. There was no world in which, like, all right, she's coming down for the weekend kind of thing. Like, that's.
And even if she had, it would have been okay. She'll stay with, you know, some couple from church or whatever, and they'll kind of help us out in that way. And we have this discussion, I know we have people just kind of scoffing, like, what? You just can't keep it together? Like, well, statistically a lot of people can't. And so why, you know, don't play with fire in that way. And so that's, that's just not a smart idea to do.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think kind of leaning on the people you have around you if your parents aren't in the picture, if you live in different places, live alone, whatever it may be.
Yeah, I mean, that's, it's a reality that, that's going to be what it's going to look like. I think sometimes the courtship thing can be a little too under my thumb. You're still kind of treating them like kids. But on the other hand, I see some people who, they're like, oh, you know, they're, they're not kids anymore. And then they go and get themselves in big trouble. And so, like, well, they're acting like it. And so, you know, where people can help out, whether, you know, it's the parents, whether it's fellow Christians, an older Christian couple, and kind of explain to them, hey, here's our plan for avoiding temptation and just kind of bringing other people into this relationship. I think that'd be a wise thing to do. No, it's not going to be the same as if somebody comes to marry my daughter when she's 18, still living at home. I mean, that's. Obviously those are gonna, those are different dynamics. And so I think it's Just case by case to navigate that way.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the dad needs to be involved with. With the girl kind of no matter.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: What, he's gonna walk her down the aisle. Yeah, like, let's. Yeah, let's not just give lip service to that.
[00:38:54] Speaker B: His job is to protect and not the. The cheesy clean my shotgun, you know, while a guy comes over. Come on. That trope, which has actually been done in. In real life, that's such garbage. The whole point is to protect and to make sure she's making the best possible decision because she can be prone to making emotional decisions. So can guys. But by and large, that's going to be a female thing of being prone to make the decision and finding maybe solace in another guy. Finding.
Finding whatever it may be. You want to make sure that she's picked a guy that is going to treat her well, cherish her, love her, lead her, all of those things. I think that's the father's job. And I don't see it in scripture where at 18 or 20 or 25 or when she gets her own job or everything else, it's like your job is to make sure that she is launched into her own marriage, the leave and cleave, and that she picked the best possible or made the best possible decision. If it's not your parents, I think there needs to be somebody in your life that can help you steer clear of bad influences or that can encourage this as you go. So exactly as you said, Jack.
Yeah. The older you get, I think the more idealistic something like courtship becomes. But I do think that principle of being surrounded by a lot of people that are going to keep you accountable and things like that is still very, very appropriate.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: What do you do? Hypothetically? Here, take Jack scenario. Let's say Allison's parents did not really have any involvement, didn't really want to be involved, was basically didn't treat it the way that they did with the, you know, seriousness that they. They, you know. And again, because Allison was still living at home, what do you do when neither one of you are living at home? Neither one of you really has parents that are going to be all that involved. That's. I guess when I was talking about getting sticky and getting kind of messy, that's. That's where my mind goes, is like, what do you do when. And that's always been kind of my problem with courtship is like, what do you do when the situation's not idealistic? Which is 95% of the time, it feels like maybe not with this scenario. But so, yeah, I mean, any thoughts on that? Like what, what do you do in that scenario? Like, and again, let's call it in Jack's shoes. But Allison was living by herself and her parents did not really want to be all that involved. You can't force them to be.
[00:40:51] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's where you look to others for accountability, you know, and just say, hey, this is what we're trying to do. And you know, we'll want to keep this on the up and up until, until the wedding day. I mean like that's, and again, I, I, we've, I've gotten feedback of people just so, you know, mocking of this whole idea. And it's just kind of like, you know, purity is just not something to mess around with. It's just something that needs to be taken way more seriously than it is even in courting families. I think sometimes I think they're, they're kind of keeping an eye on everything and no, I mean like openly discuss this stuff of how you're going to honestly get to the altar pure. And so that's, I think it's just, yeah. Communication is, and having other people involved is a good thing to do.
Go ahead into this part of, of where people make mistakes in finding a spouse where, where the pitfalls happen.
And some of these, it's kind of like there's a necessity to them, but they're, you have to balance them, measure them out. And obviously the first one you kind of brought this up with the Instagram Snapchat thing is attractiveness. Yeah. You want somebody you're attracted to. You want somebody to look at and think, you know, she's pretty or he's, he's a good looking guy if you're a girl. And on the other hand, sometimes people just get that in their head and basically nothing else matters. Like that first impression of attractiveness is all they're going to run with. But I guess the question here is what? How do you balance it? How do you make it a factor? But not the only factor. There are those that believe, I guess Will you kind of mentioned to bring something up here, so I'll let you bring it up. Of like, yeah, it's not that big of a factor. So why don't you throw that in here.
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[00:43:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a discussion I was having recently with somebody and just kind of the idea of, like, okay, let's say somebody's setting you up and, you know, you look at a Facebook profile photo or you look at pictures of them online or whatever.
There's the question of, can it be an instant? No. Can you look at a picture and say, I don't find that person attractive. I don't really see myself ever finding that person attractive. And so therefore, I'm not going to move. I don't want to move forward. The person I was having the discussion with was adamant that that was incredibly shallow and that you kind of always need to at least take the chance to get to know the person's personality first before you make any judgments on photos or anything like that. And the point that I was making, and it kind of ironically ties back to the Instagram thing that I was bringing up about that being all it. It's based on. I don't think that necessarily should be all that your relationship is based on. At the same time you're going to be with this person hopefully for the next 40, 50, 60 years in your life. I do think there needs to be an element of. I find them attractive. There. There is a. There's an attractiveness to it where if I look at a picture and say, I not. Do, you know, not doing it for me, I don't think that's out of bounds for somebody to say, you know. So I guess my answer is I do think it can be an instant no. And I think a lot of people are going to look at that and say, man, that's so. That's so harsh. That's so shallow. Shouldn't the spiritual be all that matters? The spiritual is not all that matters, no matter how much people want to say that it is. For anybody that's ever gotten married before, the spiritual is not all that matters. It's just not. And I think it's very gnostic, whatever word you want to use to say that the spiritual is all that matters, and it's about, can they help you get to heaven? It is about that. That's the most important thing. But to say that that's the only thing and that whether or not you Find them physically attractive. You know what? That doesn't matter. I think is just completely ignoring reality. That's just not the way the world works. And so, yeah, that was my take, is that it can be an instant no based off of that. Again, the person I was discussing it with was pretty adamant that that was shallow and not. Not a very good trait to have. But I just. I think it's the way the. The world works. Joe, what do you. Are your thoughts on that?
[00:45:09] Speaker B: I think there's a. There's a repulsion level of, like, absolutely not. There's a.
Okay, you know, maybe. And then there's. Whoa, hey, that's pretty good. I would say the. The last two.
[00:45:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: You get to know them. Of course. Get to know them first because there are people that are really attractive and they're horrible people, and you got to be able to say, nope. There are people that maybe you're not, like, unbelievably attractive, but the attraction grows as you get closer to them. You get to know them, they're sweetest person ever, and. And the person will kind of change in your eyes. They will grow more attractive based off the personality like that. That I believe does happen. There are also those where you look at and go, no, sorry, no. They're in no world. I don't care what the personality is. I don't care if they're bazillionaire. Like, it's just not happening. And I think that's okay as well. Look, you got to wake up to this person or wake up next to this person for the rest of your life, Lord willing, 50, 60 years, whatever it may be, you've got to. You got to sleep with this person.
Yeah, you need to have a level of attraction there. So do I think it's shallow? No, I don't. When it's like that now, if nobody meets the standard because they don't look like Leonardo DiCaprio or something. Yeah. Maybe come off of that a little bit and realize we're living in the real world. Not everybody's gonna be Hollywood good looks type of thing. On the other hand, there's certainly a sliding scale here. And at some point along the way, you realize there's a repulsion that kind of comes in of, no, that's not happening. And I don't think that's wrong. Jack, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:46:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I agree with what you said. If somebody can become more attractive. But there's the. I mean, there's just kind of natural yes or no, you know, There's. I think that can be realistic, and I think sometimes we're just not very realistic about attraction. Well, it shouldn't matter what they look like. Well, God gave us eyes for a reason. And that's. I mean, you read Song of Solomon, like, there's a lot of visual that they're talking about toward each other, and that's okay. I mean, like, that's. God allowed us to observe beauty and be visually attract. Like, that's one of the blessings of marriage is you've got somebody that you're attracted to. And I think this gets downplayed so much, and it's one of those things. Like, again, in the Singleness years, I kind of wish I had gotten it through my head a little more of, like, you can do a little more to make yourself a little more attractive, you know, drop a little weight or just comb your hair a little better, whatever it may be. Like, this is. These are a factor. And it's kind of that thinking, that kind of gnostic thinking, oh, well, it doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. Or if it's the right person, it won't matter to them.
Maybe. Maybe the right person. Like, you're not attractive to them, so they're not looking to give you the chance. I mean, like, these are realities of human life that we can go, well, it shouldn't be that way. Well, sorry. I mean, like, so deal with it as it is.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's just the denial of reality is what's so frustrating. Like, as you just said, not to echo you, it shouldn't be that way. That's the way that people's brains work, the way that people's eyes work. And to try to say otherwise is just to deny human nature. Joe.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: But it's. That's the way. Come on. If we go back to the garden, do you really think that Eve looked like Big Bertha type of thing? Like, no. She's probably pretty attractive.
[00:48:07] Speaker C: Like. Well, the other thing that comes into this is the arranged marriage thing. People, like, well, they make it work. It's like those are in very one type of people culture where, like, there's not that much of a. Like, they're culturally, they're all going to look not, you know, it's not that everybody looks the same, but there's kind of a. A type. Right. Like, that's. You're all choosing from a similar type in those kinds of cultures. It's not this kind of very broad way of looking at things. Yeah. I mean, like. And I'm not even talking on, on like a racial level, but of just kind of the. There's all the spectrum of what somebody can look like here in the US Today versus where they're all going to be pretty similar, you know, in a lot of ways. Yeah, that's kind of a different thing. I'm not saying they couldn't make it work if you were arranged with somebody that you weren't attracted to, but still, it's just kind of like, yeah, let's, you know, let's be real here.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: I do think this is going to be. One of the biggest pitfalls for people is just either saying no immediately to, to everybody and never really finding because nobody's attractive, or only going after the attractive. But the second pitfall we had on here was the first knock at the door, first person to come down the pike. Hey, that's. She's just. Wow. That she's incredible. And yeah, okay, maybe, but this is the first person that's coming down the pike. You've never really had that. I can't speak of this too much because Alyssa was my, you know, first and only. So I'm batting a thousand. And I think there's a level of this. You have to be very careful, though, because so often I think you can use this as a way to run from your life. I don't like the way that I. I don't like my life. I don't like my parents. I don't like whatever it is. And then one person comes along, they're the knight in shining armor. Hey, let's just go with it. He's a good guy. He's a good Christian guy. And then you come to find out, actually he's not anything. But your eyes were blinded to all of this because you were just trying to run from your life. He was the first one to come for you. It just seems like he's the one. And then you realize, man, maybe I should have waited a little longer or. The other side of it, I think, is there's a level of low self esteem. I'm never going to find anybody. Just I'm just lucky to have one person come for me type of thing. Like, no. You may have multiple people that are, that are that enter into your life that if you say no today, you got to trust that God is there and that God is good and maybe may bring somebody else. But the other thing is you have to trust in your decision to say no if you're going to kick yourself in five years. Because, man, if I had only said yes, but most of the time I think if we're honest, you can look at that and the people that you see this, where they kind of take the first, the first person that comes down the pike, there are regrets with that because they maybe sometimes didn't do the due diligence, whatever it is. And like I said, I can't speak to this fully because of, you know, my station in life and kind of how it worked out. On the other hand, you see this a lot. So those, what are your thoughts on that in particular with just that first knock at the door? Any thoughts on that before we go to that?
[00:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to move on to the next one pretty quick, but I would just, I was going to bring up the low self esteem point. I think you need to be very careful when you're at a certain, you know, certain age and you're just there, you understand? Because there, as we brought up at the start of the episode, there is a level of I've got so many options that it's overwhelming me to the point where I don't feel like I don't have any options. And so the first one comes down the line, it's like, oh, gotta snatch her up right away. Or for the girl, gotta snatch him up right away. Because I just, you never know, I might not end up with someone.
Be very careful to make sure that your low self esteem is not driving that or your, you know, panic desperation is not driving that. I think just if you keep the understanding of I, I want to see if, if we're compatible. I want to see if this person is going to help me get to heaven. I want to see if I'm physically attracted to this person. All these things and you kind of treat it as if you would treat any, anybody. Then you can, you know, confidently move forward with the relationship one way or the other. But you just, Yeah, I just think you have to be very careful and very self aware to know, okay, I am or I am not letting my fear of never finding somebody drive this relationship because good. I mean, I know people like that. I know a few people like that, who that, that was. You know, they're never going to say this, but if, you know, put them on a lie detector test. Why did you choose this person?
Kind of the first person that showed interest and then kind of move forward from there and I don't think that's a good thing at all.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: Or even the you complete me, you know, and then they stop completing you after marriage and you're really unhappy like that you should have been more set in yourself. It shouldn't be like, oh, I bring 50, you bring 50. We've spoken on that before. But that can be a major pitfall in this too, Jack.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: Well, and it's, it's intoxicating when somebody pays attention to you and it's, it's hard to let that go. And again there is the realization that some people it is, they don't have another one come around for a long time or maybe even ever. But there are cases in which it's like, man, it is better to be on your own than starting a family with somebody who doesn't share your values. You know, I known people like, well, I want to have kids. Well, I don't. Well, I, you know, you have the kids. Well, I want to homeschool my. That's never going to happen. Like, and just all of your values run into each other and your every day of your life is a fight. Like, was being single worse than that? And so there is that level of you have to be okay with moving on. Speaking of moving on, I mentioned there kind of the infatuation thing of like that first spark and you keep going with that.
That can only carry so long as we talk about the honeymoon phase burning out. And so be careful of that.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: I think you have to get through the honeymoon phase before you get married. To a certain degree. Yeah. There's the honeymoon phase after. But some people, because marriage, the infatuation phase, you know, they get, they meet each other, get married within four or five months. It's still infatuation. I think there has to have that wear off before you enter into marriage to a certain degree.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: I've heard you say you, you really should probably get into one decent sized argument before you get married. I know you have a lot of people who don't.
[00:53:49] Speaker C: Brad has done marriage counseling for people and that's one of his goals is all right, I'm gonna get him to argue, like let's, let's see what happens kind of thing and realize it's okay, you know, if. Or maybe it's not. So you figure that out.
Okay. You guys also had the rebellious pick kind of I'm going to pick the person that everybody doesn't want me to be end up with. I'm sorry you're too stupid to get married at that point. Like, but it's hard to be self aware because that is a very unself aware move. And so I don't know if you find yourself kind of running against everybody. Take a look around for a minute.
[00:54:21] Speaker A: The one, the one thing I'll say not to again, there really is no defending or excusing this behavior.
Homeschool moms, please be very careful about pushing a prototype on. On your child. Of like, it's got to be this person wearing these kinds of clothes who homeschooled their entire life. Like, I'm gonna be. Just be very vulnerable here and honest like that. That was pretty well pushed on me for my entire life. And I didn't make a rebellious pick or anything. Rachel's amazing and, you know, but she did not fit the prototype. And yet I do think that is a kind of a thing specifically for homeschool moms to have the picture perfect image image of the Christian boy that they want their daughter to marry or vice versa for their, for their. For their boys.
That not only is that. Does that rarely work out and is that not healthy, it also can push people into this direction of, I'm gonna pick whoever I want, and odds are it's going to be the opposite of the type of person you want. Again, bad character quality. That's not a good thing at all. But I do think sometimes that can be really driven by, again, just the very pushy parent who has the prototype in mind that they're never gonna shy away from. Does that make sense? I think that's a needed point here.
[00:55:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that, especially with our audience. I think we got a lot, A lot of people that. A lot of the moms there, and everybody wants the best for their kids. No doubt. But, yeah, be careful you don't push the kids into that next one we have on here is money. All you care about is, you know, like, I'm not gonna talk to the guy until he's got a hundred grand, his bank account type of thing.
It's. It's fast one. We'll move on quickly. But don't be shallow enough to say, like, yeah, you want to make sure the guy is not riddled with debt. He's not an idiot when it comes to money. You know, he's got.
[00:55:53] Speaker C: Or her, hey, I've got all this debt that you're just gonna have to pay for. And, you know, I've got 10 credit.
[00:55:58] Speaker B: Cards open that are all maxed out. Yeah. I mean, you got to be aware of those things. On the other hand, I do think that sometimes that's all that matters to people is, Are you kidding? He's a preacher. He's not going to make any money.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: Like, okay, well, I would say the other End of it is kind of. Well, it just, it shouldn't matter. Like, well, is he lazy? Is he just kind of ahead in the cloud? Yeah. And so those, those things do matter.
[00:56:17] Speaker B: Going nowhere. Yeah.
[00:56:19] Speaker A: This last one we've got on here I think is one of the more interesting ones and it's probably going to be the last thing we have time for. We've got some things we want to cover about what should the basics be? We've talked about the pitfalls. What are the basics? We'll either do that here at the end or move that to the deep end. But as far as pitfalls go. Yeah, Joe, real fast, how do you.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: How do you feel about moving this one to the deep end? Maybe get some subscribers? I think this is one of the more fascinating things. I just know time wise we kind of got to wrap up. But I, I do think I want to spend some time on this. I don't want to have to wrap up this discussion because sorry will not cut you off, but it is too high a standards versus settling. How do you know the difference? How do you know when you have like, okay, come down a little bit from your, your list of 100 things that the guy must or that the woman must reach versus why have, you know, they don't have to hit anything and then they settle in and they're miserable. I think that's an interesting discussion that I don't know if you guys are good pushing to the deep end because I did want to get to on. On the main one, the basics. We're going to go through this fairly fast just for time purposes, but got to be a Christian. Will and I recently had a gym podcast on this. Do not be unequally yoked. Don't marry the non Christian. They need to be a Christian and preferably obviously a strong one if possible. But I think the Jack you have on your Esau's bad example, right? He goes after the, the two women and it talks about like literally his mom driving her almost to the point of death. Like she was so sick of them that she just couldn't stand it. And you see where Esau's family branches from that. The old law is very, very dogmatic on this. Like you do not marry outside of Israel for obvious purposes. And I think that's what Paul is drawing on with the equally oats people.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: Are going to ask, well, is it a sin to marry man? Stop asking that. Is it a good idea? And the obvious answer to that is no, it's a terrible idea. You go to 2nd Corinthians 6:14. What we were talking about in the episode is like, okay, Paul saying, do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. What do you think he was referring to? You think he was referring to business transactions? Yeah, probably not. Do you think he was referring to, you know, don't be close friends with people? It's like, I feel like Paul is, would. Is a little bit more concerned. Like, are you saying that he's saying that your friendships matter more than the person you marry? Probably not. And so there's just a little common sense that needs to be used here. Like, oh, he wasn't technically talking about marriage. What other relationship would he be referring to where he's like, hey, don't be really closely connected with this person, but not be including marriage? And so I feel like this one's pretty common sense. And I know again, a lot of people will ask, well, is it a sin? It's just a really, really bad idea.
[00:58:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Not much more to add on that next one we have is a kind hearted person, somebody who cares about other people. It's not all about them. It's somebody who is, you know, notices other people's hurts, you know, rejoices with those who rejoice, weeps with those who weep.
The kind of person who cares about you, you know, you want a husband who cares, a wife who cares. That goes a really long way in life. And some people just aren't that kind of person. They're so self absorbed, you just don't get that out of them.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: It ties into this next one, being a servant, the idea that you can see things from other people's perspective. Does this person think about other people? Think about how they can serve other people? Does this person.
You said it very well, Jack. Like, are they only thinking about themselves, what they want to do, their needs, their desires? I'm a firm believer that generally you can pick up on this pretty quick with somebody. You can pick up on this fairly fast in conversation. Are they only talking about themselves? Are they asking you questions? And you can pick up, you can pick it up around a dinner table, you can pick it up in a couple hours of like, how willing are they to get up and help somebody else to. To serve somebody else? I think, I think these two kind of go hand in hand because once again, it just shows they are able to think of someone other than other than themselves, which to pick on. My generation is pretty rare with Gen Z and even millennials to some extent. They're pretty Self absorbed and so when somebody is not, I think it's pretty easy to pick up on Joe.
[01:00:02] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I don't have much more to add. The next one we had on your is willing to grow open minded to a certain degree like they are not so stuck in their ways. Nope, this is what I believe. Settle down dude. You're 23, like you don't really know what you believe. You are solidified in the faith. Yes. But you're going to grow in a lot of ways and it's important that especially with spouse, you grow together. But somebody that's willing to grow, somebody that's willing to, I don't know again, they're willing to be swayed with the right argument or whatever else but they're also on this path of growth where they're going to the gym and they're in their Bible and they're, they're maybe they got some accountability. Whatever it is. You're looking for somebody that has a growth mindset rather than like ah, you know, that's all right. It's probably going to be the same in 40 years as it is today. Some people can find happiness I suppose in that. But I'm a big believer in finding somebody who is willing to grow at least that doesn't mean they have to be the type A like drive you into the ground trying to grow because that's not healthy. On the other hand, somebody that's willing to, to you know, think about things, think outside the box a little bit. Next one we have on here. Men are willing to lead, women willing to submit. You're, you're looking for a man who, oh man, I, I just don't know. I. You. She knows more than I do. And yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to, trying to show up to church on time. Like okay, sometimes that's, that's. I'm glad that he's trying to show up to church on time but can he lead the family spiritually speaking? I think this is, we've railed on this one a lot so we can keep this one short.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: But fellas, if he's not ready to lead, he's not ready for marriage like that. God as the husband to lead. And so if he's kind of wishy washy on that or like ah, maybe we can both lead, that's kind of a sure tell sign that he is not ready for marriage because God called him as the husband to be the leader. And then similarly, obviously for the other side, as you just spoke to Joe view of Kids is the next one, I think is really, really important.
Do you two view children the same way? Do you view them as a blessing? Do you view them as a, you know, does he or she view them as kind of a burden, a kind of a financial hindrance, a necessary evil, so to speak, of like, yeah, I know we're supposed to have kids, so I guess we'll have our. Have our one, have our two and kind of be done with it. You need to know that, you need to know what this person's view of kids is. Not that you have to agree to have 12 kids together, but you know that you, again, have a very healthy, similar view of children and that you can be on the same page about that because, you know, that's a point of contention for, for a lot of couples. The last one. And Jack, I'll let you kind of close this out here is input from trusted friends and mentors. Sometimes you can be very blinded by your infatuation or the things that you think you see.
And listen, if you're a pretty emotionally aware person, hopefully you're seeing the right things. But man, sometimes it does help to have the input of people who are somewhat on the outside looking in, people who can kind of see past the, the love blinded eyes, so to speak, and see maybe traits, qualities in the other person that you can't, either for the good or for the bad. And so I would, I would encourage you to, you know, I would, I would encourage people seek out that input, trust that input. If it's from people that you value their opinion and you think they're a good judge of character. Because I think it does matter.
[01:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Paul tells the Corinthians that a father doesn't have to give his daughter away in marriage. And you know, when, when that push comes to shove and somebody applies that like, no, you can't marry my daughter, people really bristle against that. But it's one of those, like, well, then why does he ask why, why do we have this tradition of, well, I'll ask her dad for her hand in marriage, like, because he should have that veto power. On the other hand, parents should try to facilitate because some parents can be too perfectionistic. You know, nobody gets to marry my princess. Well, then lock her in a tower because that's how it's going to go. Same thing with, you know, the sons you don't want. If his mom is steering his life or his parents, then he's not ready for marriage anyway. He's got to be willing to leave and cleave but still leaning on the wisdom of other people. Like what are you seeing here? What are your thoughts on this person? And if they're like she doesn't serve, it's all about her all the time. Like, be open to that and don't be in that infatuation stage where other people are seeing, hey, this person is not bringing to the table what the kind of person you want to live with for the next 50 years.
Take heed. I mean, pay attention to those things. That doesn't make them the veto power. But yeah, there's wisdom there to getting a second and third opinion. So just yeah, some quick hits on things to look for things to develop in our kids that we want to work toward in the future. We are going to save that discussion on too high of standards for the deep end. And so focuspress.org plus if you want to join us for that part, I.
[01:04:28] Speaker A: Would say also a discussion on finding purpose in singlehood I think will be a good discussion that maybe we'll spend a few minutes on in the deep end as well. So really kind of two two topics there for as our little plug for the deep end.
[01:04:40] Speaker C: There you go. So appreciate you guys listening again. Join us on that one if you we'd love to have you there. FocusPress.org/ and we will talk to you guys on the next one.
