Does JD Vance Love His Neighbor?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think Deeper, presented by Focus Press. I'm your host Joe Wilkie, joined as always by Jack Wilke and Will Harab. And today we are reacting. We had one planned but Will's been sick and we've just been. It's been crazy sicknesses going around and, and we thought, well, we'll keep it short. But then the more we got talking, maybe not so short. So we'll see. But this is something that's been in the news that we've been following a little bit. We haven't had a chance to react too much other than our little think fast, you know, five minute pieces at the end. But we wanted to devote an entire episode to this because we see it making the rounds on Facebook, on Twitter, X. Sorry, on just on social media. And it seems to have stirred up some discussion. We discussed this before, but JD Vance is kind of the one that kicked this one off. And so Jack, I wanted you to speak to it kind of set up the show and what are we talking about today? [00:00:55] Speaker C: Yeah, it's the question of ordo amoris. If you're on X, you probably have seen this discussion because it's been raging for a few days now. This one is even leaked over to Facebook. That's how you know, like a story is really big is when you see it get over there. A lot of things happen on one side but don't migrate to the other. But once it gets this big, it's kind of like, okay, let's, let's talk about this. Because it was something, a conversation, I guess the vice president started and then a lot of religious voices came in to either agree with him or to disagree with him, put him in his place, that kind of thing. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll catch this here. Let me screen share the tweets here. You guys see that? Okay, so he went on a show on a Fox News show. I'm just gonna read the quote said there's a Christian concept that you love your family and then you love your neighbor and then you love your community and then you love your fellow citizens. And then after that, prioritize the rest of the world. A lot of the far left has completely inverted that. And he went on to say more, but that's the, the general gist of that one. And somebody replied a bizarre take on John 15:12 to 13, which we'll talk about here in a minute. Less Christian and more pagan, tribal. We should start worrying. When politicians become theologians assume to speak for Jesus and tell Us in which order to love. To which Vance said, just Google ordo amoris. Aside from that, the idea there isn't a hierarchy of obligations violates basic common sense. Does Rory really think his moral duties to his own children are the same as his duties to a stranger who lives thousands of miles away? Does anyone. That raises an interesting question, because when he says, does anyone? A lot of people do. That question came up a lot. And the idea that this is cover for not wanting to care about people. And of course, this most directly applies to the immigration discussion. And I think that's what Vance was responding to in the first place was the concern about, hey, we're sending people out and shouldn't we be caring for these people? And the Christian doctrine of love your neighbor and all that. And so he took it this way. That gives us the background. We got a lot of different angles to go with this. We're going to get that John 15 verse here in a minute. A couple other verses we need to look at, but opening comments. You guys have anything else? [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I wanted to. To bring up something that really, I feel like was in the forefront of our minds maybe a couple years ago, I guess definitely a couple years ago under the COVID discussion. But it is just so. It's so unfortunate to me how love your neighbor has become the shield that so many people hide behind to defend. Or it's kind of like the poster child for whatever mainstream political issue that they really want to, whether it be immigration or obviously two, three years ago, it was why you should take the COVID vaccine and all these things. And love your neighbor is kind of the. For a lot of people, the number one verse, the number one passage, the number one thing that. That they say Christians should follow. But what's frustrating about it is, is they take it and twist it to mean whatever they want it to mean. Love your neighbor means that we should not have any restrictions on immigration. Love your neighbor means that we should mandate the COVID vaccine. Love your neighbor means, again, whatever we want it to mean. And that's what I'm seeing. Kind of come back around with this discussion about kind of the. The different orders of who you should love is people are hiding behind love your neighbor as the number one command, if you will, for Christians to follow. And again, they are twisting that to mean love your neighbor should mean the exact same thing as love your family is love your kids, blurring it all together. And first of all, it's just a very poor way to do Bible study, but it's. It's one of those things where, you know, nobody's going to argue with love your neighbor. And so when they trot that out there, like, oh, well, love your neighbor, what J.D. vance was saying was a violation of love your neighbor. Somebody who. Who is. Is not necessarily familiar with the Bible is going to look at that and say, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess Vance is not really loving his neighbor. And so it's a very. Forgive the word, but sleazy way to present this out there, this love your neighbor thing. So that's where my mind goes again. I know that was really big three, two, three years ago with the vaccine thing of everybody's saying that if you don't take the COVID vaccine, you're not loving your neighbor. Just one of those things that they threw out there and kind of hid behind as a shield. But it's reminiscent of that for me, as we talk about this today. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Well, yeah, the world is all on love, right? The lgbtq, it's all about love. And when you get into the. I don't know if it's universal, whatever you want to say, like, even polytheists, it's all about love. And then you see people that kind of lose their minds on psychotropics, and what do they come back saying? Oh, we're all part of one big family. It's all about love. And that was part of the 60s and the 70s. And that's kind of coming back around is everything's about love. Okay? Love is important. We have to define love. And it will. To your point, we have to define neighbor as well. What does that look like? You know, when Jesus is talking about loving your neighbor as yourself, is he talking about the theoretical Inca or Aztec or whatever it may be at the time, all the way across the world at the time? Well, yeah, there's a certain way to love them and what that looks like, but the. The question that really comes to mind. You're exactly right. They are taking it to twisted, but, like, who's the. Who does the love go to first? Can we have the same love for everybody else? And the initial Christian thought is, of course we should have the same love for everybody else. We're just supposed to love you people agape love, right? We can throw out agape love. And that sounds great. Practically speaking, this is the question of the day, I suppose. But practically speaking, does that even make sense? I think JD's second tweet is a lot more powerful. Getting back to the guy of, like, this is basic common sense, is it not common sense? To look at it and go, I can't love a kid in China as much as I can love my son. I'm not given as many opportunities, and quite frankly, I don't love him the exact same way I love my son. Does that make me a jerk? No. [00:06:38] Speaker A: I would be irresponsible if he did. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Correct. And if we're. If we get into, like, Greek words and agape and things like that, there's also phileo and, you know, there's multiple different types of love for your wife. There's eros and there's storge, which is a familial love. So if we get into the Greek, there's a lot of different loves. I can love my son with storge, the familial love, with a filet o love, and with an agape love. I can't necessarily love the stranger like that. I can theoretically love him in terms of, like, if I had an opportunity to help him on the street, maybe I'd help him. I. I don't think it's the same. And so, Jack, I wanted to. I wanted to get back around to your kind of and bring in some scripture here because people may look at it and once again, like will is saying, throw out the love your neighbor as yourself, or maybe throw out some verses of how we need to love one another. You mentioned, or he mentioned, rather, the John 13. Pass. John 13:15. The John 15 passage. And so I wanted you to bring in the scripture here before we get to. [00:07:32] Speaker C: Before we get to scripture. Natural revelation is good enough for some things, like common sense is from God. And I think what ends up happening in some of these discussions is the Christian voices are the ones who say, no, actually, you have to override your common sense. In fact, I was having this discussion with a guy, and I brought up verses, and he said, oh, those don't say that we're commanded to love all people all the same. And I said, okay, put your money where your mouth is. Go tell your wife you love Jennifer Aniston just as much as you love her. See how that goes, right? Like, this is. Come on. Like, you know, your brain works this way. And. And so what we're dealing with is the common sense of that. The common sense of there's limited resources. I don't have unlimited attention. I don't have unlimited time. I don't have unlimited money. I don't have unlimited. All these things. Therefore, there's going to be a hierarchy of how that gets distributed. Now, if it's all to My own family and my own people and I don't do anything for anybody else out there. That's probably out of order if it inverts. And I tell the family nearest to me, yeah, sorry. And we're going to get into this as it applies to the church because that, this is what happens when you get this backwards thinking. It messes up the church. And there's a lot of. That's where we're going to finish this discussion. I'm going to screen share one more thing. It's this map that comes up in this discussion a lot. This guy tweeted about it, said every six months my mind returns to this heat map indicating that conservatives devote the majority of their empathy and care to, to family and friends. And liberals devote most of their concern to plants, trees, and inner entities such as rocks. And you see this kind of where the locus of their, their love and concern is and the closer it is, it is those, you know, parents, siblings, children, wife, like those things at the start and then it goes out and out and out. Look at the one on the right. That ninth ring is all people on all continents. Tenth is all mammals. Eleven is all amphibians, reptiles. Twelfth is all animals on earth. And you get to the end all natural things in the universe, including inner entities such as rocks. There's more love out there than there is close to home. This is a nature study, nature.com study. So you can go check that out if you want. The point is, this is your common sense getting you away to say, I'm going to care about those things. But it's also a, a very, there's no self sacrifice in that because you can't do anything for the rocks. You can't. And this is where you get the fur babies thing. Like you care more about animals. A lot of people say that these days, care more about animals than about people. That's a mental disorder there. Like you, you're supposed to care about. And the other thing this comes down to is that that's there's no cost to any of those loves. Costly love is people who get on your nerves. Costly love is your spouse who's really hurt you. Costly love is your children who are driving you crazy. And that's real love. And so I, I wanted to take that detour before we get into some of these scriptures you wanted to bring up Joe. And so we can go ahead and get into them, but that to me says so much. And again, there are church implications for this I want to get to. But let's Go ahead and get to those scriptures. Do either one of you have the ones we. We mentioned pulled up? [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, so, and this is to me, in this discussion, one of the most important things to bring up. But Galatians chapter 6, verse 10. I'll back up to verse 9, Galatians 6, 9, 10. Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Joe, if you want to get for the first Timothy, when I'll hand it over to you second, this one, I mean it lays it out perfectly clear. Yes, he does say do good to all, but that, that clause there, that phrase there at the end, especially to those serve the household of faith. What does that imply? It implies there is a level of priority that needs to be given. And we talked a little bit about this a couple episodes ago with the church finances and the way that we should kind of allocate where our money is going when we're giving and things like that. The point is the, the inspired apostle Paul is saying, yeah, maybe turn, turn your attention first to those who are closer to you. Not to the rocks, not to the trees, not to the, not to the people who are across the, the, you know, 16 time zones away from you, across the, the. The globe. Focus on your church family, focus on the household of faith, people who are right there, people who are within your camp, especially to them, you know them first, essentially make sure and take care of them first. And there's a, once again, is going to be probably the theme for the episode, a common sense element to this. Like, yes, of course we're going to take care of them first and then do good to them first. Doesn't mean we don't think we should do good to others, but that's where we're going to start. And that's a very biblical concept. Joe, do you have the other one you want to get to? [00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. 1758 says, but if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Obviously cares with the connotation you have to provide for your family. It does not talk about providing for the alien, you know, from the person across the way or providing for the person, like you said, 16 time zones away. It doesn't talk about that. It talks about the guy who is, who cannot provide for his own household is worse than an unbeliever it does not make us worse than an unbeliever. Once again, to not be able to help the kid in China. If we have an opportunity, great, let's do good to those that we, that we can certainly. But that's not where the main priority is for you. This is also an issue when you start seeing it in the church. And Jack, as you said, we'll get to it a little bit later, but when you start seeing it in the church, man, this is where things really went south, is we stopped caring about it. You see it in the country. We stopped, stopped caring about America first. All of a sudden, it was easier. It was cheaper to get the goods from other places. It was the cheap. It was cheaper to send work to India, to send work to China, to Mexico, to wherever it is. And to have them make all our goods or to have them do all our tech jobs. And then we're really hurting on the front end. And anytime where somebody, a poor kid and you know, coming out of suburbs or whatever, it's like, well, you're white and you're perfectly fine and, you know, you already got a leg up like, no, because the job he was going to have that was going to pay good is now an Indian job or now from somewhere else. This is the problem is it hurts your own people. And then when the own people stand up and go, hey, this is not fair. Well, hey, you get to be a part of this. What's your problem? Like. And I think we can do the same thing in the church where we, as we talked about the allocation of resources and everything else. At some point it comes back around to your family matters and your church family matters. And we see this in Corinth. Where, where does Paul send, You know, have him send it. He's having him send things back to. Or the, the collection he takes in First Corinthians 16 back to Jerusalem. This is, well, to your point of Galatians 6 of the household of faith. So, yeah, those in Corinth are taken care of. That's okay. But there had been a major earthquake in, in Jerusalem. Let's send it back there, the household of faith. Let's take care of the, the fellow Christians that we can. Now, if there were extra funds, do we know if they went and helped other people in Jerusalem? Potentially, potentially, you know, I'm not against it. But where were, where were they first sending money to those, the household of faith, those that were their own. And if they were sending that money before they could put food on their own Table. I think that's wrong as well. [00:14:29] Speaker C: Well, let's get to the counterpoint. The guy had brought up John 15, 12, and 13. This is my commandment that you love one another just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this. Than one lay down his life for his friends. Interestingly, it is for his friends. But the other thing is you love your neighbor as yourself. But what Jesus told the apostles was, love as I have loved you, love with a sacrificial love. Jesus loved us better than he loved himself because he gave his life for us. He tells the Christians, the apostles do that for each other. Love each other enough to lay down your lives for each other. He tells everyone else, love your neighbor as yourself. That in itself indicates a hierarchy of loves toward Christians first, toward your Christian brothers, your family, those nearest to you in that sense. And so even this guy's pushback says that. But there were other pushbacks. I wanted to read one that was going around today. Guy said, and I have seen this a few times, things like this. I went on a walk and saw a child drowning in the river. I was going to jump in and save him when someone reminded me that I should care about family members more than strangers. So I continued on my way and let him drown. That is called a straw man. Nobody's saying that if your kid is okay and standing on solid ground, jump in and save the stranger, that's. That is the right thing to do, is help somebody else. And so and I. That's. [00:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the complete wrong analogy there. The analog, the correct analogy would be you're standing in between two lakes. Your, your son is drowning in one and the stranger is drowning in the other, and you choose to save your. Like, that's the. Like that, that's maddening, right? The fact that people think that we're that intellectually stupid to not be able to tell, but sorry, Jack, I cut you off. [00:16:05] Speaker C: Well, the other thing is there's immediate and second level effects people can't think of. Like, all right, there's a homeless person and it is going to be a really cold night. And if you bring them into your house and give them a room and all of that, like, that is a really nice thing to do for them. But there are risks involved. There are second level things. And you say, well, what if he doesn't attack your family? What if he doesn't steal your stuff? What if he doesn't all these other things, okay, but if you keep on doing that and you keep telling your son hey, son, give up your bed for this guy. We're going to keep bringing in. What does that do to your son long term? If you just keep telling him, hey, this guy matters. He's more entitled to the stuff that I have than you are. What are you send? What message are you sending there? And so when, immediately, you would look at me like, well, yes, son, don't be selfish. This is important that we do this for this guy long term. There's. That's going to damage that relationship. It's going to set your son back, it's going to hurt him. And so you've got to be able to think in multiple layers on this. There's a few questions I want to get to on this, but before we wrap this up, any other comments on this? [00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah, real, real fast. I wanted to go back to John 15 for just a second because I think it's really important to understand the context of what's being said there. What's going on in John 15? Where is Jesus? Who's he talking to? He's talking to his disciples. He's talking to specifically the 12 apostles. He's just washed their feet two chapters earlier. He's just told them, I'm the way, the truth, the Life. In chapter 14, if you love me, keep my commandments. All those passages. We're very familiar with John 15. We get to the I am the, the, the vine, you are the branches. Very well known. It's in this same setting where he says, when he's talking about, you know, the, the, the verses 12 and 13, this is my commandment that you love one another as I've loved you. Greater love is no one than this than to lay down one's life for his friends. Is he saying, like, is the command there to make sure that you love all 8 billion people in the world? Or is he telling his, his apostles, love one another, the love that you have for each other. And later on he's going to say like, that's how people will know that you're my disciples. Is the love that you have for all the poor and homeless? No, he says, the love that you have for one another is how people will know that you're my disciples. You might think that that's a very small distinction, but it's an important distinction in this discussion to have where people are taking that to mean, once again, love the homeless and love the, the people that are across the, across the globe and love all these people. And again, yes, we should show kindness to those people, though, if we have the opportunity to do things for them. You know, if, if that's in our path, great. That's not really what Jesus is saying there. And once again, not to call people out, but it's kind of a, in my viewpoint, misinterpretation of what Jesus is saying to apply it to that when he's saying love each love as disciples, as followers of mine. The love that you have for one another is what is going to, you know, be recognized among people. Does that make sense? I just want to point that out because I think that's, that's demonstrative here. [00:18:55] Speaker C: Hey folks, I wanted to tell you about a book from our friends over at Cobb Publishing, the Ivory Domino. The Ivory Domino is the true story of a young dedicated Catholic who lost a bet and had to go to a friend's church the next Sunday. This led to a chain of events which turned his life upside down and for the first time made him question his Catholic faith. This is Gary Henson's story of the intense struggle it took for him to follow the truth. The Ivory Domino is available in English and Spanish, has been instrumental in leading many people out of the darkness of Catholicism and into the light of the church we read about in the Bible. If you liked muscle and a shovel, you'll love the Ivory Domino. Available on Amazon and on cobb publishing.com c o b b publishing.com I'm really glad you brought that up because in that same context, the foot washing is in there. We're on the week of the super bowl, during the Super Bowl, I'm sure that he gets us. People are going to run their ads again. That's what they did last year was Jesus would have washed feet. And it just shows him washing the feet of all kinds of different groups and this kind of thing of loving the other kind of thing. And in this context, Jesus only washed their feet to make a point about serving one another and the servant role that they're going to have in the church and all that they were supposed to do. If Jesus came and just set up a foot washing booth, what would he have? Like, was that really his purpose on earth was just to make sure everyone had clean feet? It is so absurd the idea that Jesus went up to every. He went up to the Pharisees and washed their feet. He went up to the tax collectors and washed their feet. No, he washed his apostles feet. And so even that gives this idea of certain things at certain times for certain people. And so yeah, it's in that same context. It's a great point that you expanded that to this upper room, because people rip it out of the upper room and just universalize it. That's not the point here. So. Yeah, with that. Go ahead, Joe. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to say the other thing that as you were talking, that I think is important to say. God makes a big deal of the family. It's the first institution, marriage, and the family is the first institution that he begins in Genesis 2. And he also has the family, like Abraham is a family. And he talks about the church as a family, us as being adopted sons. The family clearly is an important thing to God that we don't understand. I think we look at it as everybody's part of the family. That's not true. There are certain families, and you can see this follow family structures throughout the Old Testament, even the church as a family, where it's talking about those, the household of faith and the way that God takes care of his family. Right. And the promises that are made to his family, they are not made to everybody. So family itself is exclusive, even God's family. There's an exclusivity to it. Now, everybody's open, everybody can come into it, but God is not going to give the same blessings to everybody, whether they're in the family or out of the family. And so I think there's an exclusivity element to it and a, an importance place on the family role and on marriage itself that because of divorce rates and because of sending our kids to daycare and getting away from our kids at public school and everything else and no longer eating around the dinner table, everybody's watching TV and things like that. Family culture has been broken. We don't really know what families look like. So am I shocked that we would get to this day and age where family has no meaning and we can look at that heat map and see the chart and realize they don't care about their family at all. I'm not shocked that we got to this point, but this is the problem of it. And Jack goes to your point of like, if you continue to kick your son out of his. Out of his room for the homeless guy, what good is family? This creates so many attachment issues. So many, so many love issues of like, man, you love the stranger more than me. And we see some of those things. I've worked with some of these people, and it's devastating to see the effect it has on their mindset for the rest of their life thinking other people are more important than me to my own parents. Well, guess who your parents represent At a young age, God. So God clearly cares about more people than he cares about me as well. These are the implications when we have theologies like this. [00:22:41] Speaker A: Well, and here's the other thing too, about this. It sounds so spiritual to say things like, I mean, there's literally guys that are on X social media, you know, calling themselves trained theologians, saying that basically your community, the world, you know, your neighbor, your community and your family are all the same and that biblically speaking, they're all the same. Joe, as you just laid out, that's the most nonsensical thing to say in the world. From the start of creation, family has meant something to God that the family, you know, you just laid out. I'm not going to echo it, but you even bring in Jesus, you know, to, to the Pharisees, when they're like, yeah, sorry, I don't have enough money for my family because I gave it all to God. And he rebukes them, says, you should have taken care of your family. It's just, it's one of those things that it sounds, it's so, it sounds so spiritual to say, well, you know, all those things are the same. Once again, love your neighbors, what they hide behind. And people have a hard time arguing with something that sounds so spiritual and sounds so holy and sounds so righteous. The common sense thing, which is what we're arguing for here. And Jack, I was going to bring up your tweet as well about the. I didn't know if you were going to get to it, so I'll let you have it. But the one that you tweet a couple days ago, that I think about the, the sun in either hand here. But yeah, it's just. Once again, the common sense should, should win out here. But what often wins out in people's brains is what sounds the most spiritual, which to a lot of people is the fact that your neighbor, your community, your family, those are all the same when biblically speaking, they're not. [00:24:06] Speaker C: Well, I just, I tweet so many bangers that I'm. Which one did you have in mind? [00:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was the one that. Let me scroll down here. It was the one where in CR where the guy said, in Christianity that looks like Jesus of Nazareth, you loved a stranger first. He said, oh, yeah. Somebody tweeted and said, wait. And Christian thought, if your child is in one hand and a stranger in the other, what are you supposed to do? And somebody tweeted and said in a Christianity, looks like Jesus of Nazareth, you love the stranger first. And so, Jack, I'll let you go off on that one because, I mean, obviously that's just nonsensical. [00:24:35] Speaker C: But, yeah, I just said this is your brain on way of the cross upside down Kingdom pietism. Like you said, it sounds super spiritual. And I wrote that whole book last year on Christian political engagement to make this point, make these people talk about real practical things, like make it really come. Come home to their front door. They don't ever handle the practical. It's all theory. It's all sounds really nice. But then you go, okay, but no, literally, why is your son in his bed and not a homeless person? Why are you not opening your door to immigrants? Why are you. Why do you have a, you know, with these guys? Why do you have an iPhone instead of a flip phone? Why do you have any of these things? Like, really, let's bring that home. Why. Why is it okay for you to say these things? And so when it comes down to it, you have to get practical, and the practical things matter. Now, Joe, you made the point about the family. I think a lot of people track with that. But when it comes to this immigration thing, when it comes to some of the things we're going to talk about with Christianity, when it comes to some of these broader political concerns we covered already. Do we love Christians more than the lost? The Bible establishes the household of faith first. The Bible establishes love one another to a certain level above. Then you just love your neighbor. And so we, we already answered the first couple questions I had on the list of are we supposed to love some more than others? Do we love Christians more than the lost? A couple more challenging ones. Do we love a Christian in Mongolia more than the neighbor next door. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Assuming the neighbor is not a Christian? [00:26:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:13] Speaker B: If you take Galatians 6, 10. Yeah. The household of faith, I think is. Comes first. I would say those in Corinth had more of a duty to the saints in Jerusalem than they did to the guy who's struggling in Corinth. And so when Paul comes to take a collection, it was for Christians, what, a thousand miles away, however long that is. A thousand miles away to 500 miles away. I don't know geography over there, but yeah, I think theoretically, practically speaking, it would be easier to love the guy next door. If we're talking about practical, we're talking about, you know, as you said, Jack, our attention span and our resources and everything else. I think there is. It's a lot easier to love the guy next door. And when it comes to duty, though, as to okay, the Christian in Mongolia, I don't know. That's a really tough 1. Galatians 6. 10 would say, yes, but the other things, the common sense would say, the guy's next door. We need to love him in the ways that we can. [00:27:09] Speaker A: What makes it difficult is. And this. This is why you phrased the question the way you did about Mongolia. Like, you have way less opportunity to show love for the Christian in Mongolia than for your neighbor next door. And so if those two things are on the same playing field, you know, if you have an equal amount of opportunity to show love to the Christian Mongolia, then obviously you should. According to Galatians 6. 10, you should go that route again, whether it's send money, take care, give them a loaf of bread, whatever it is. That's what makes this question difficult, is the random Christian in Mongolia, we don't have that opportunity necessarily. Whereas you might have the opportunity to help your neighbor next door, bring him a loaf of bread, you know, take care of him, and. And, you know, financially or whatever it is. And so I agree with what Joe's saying there. Ideally, yes, you do love the Christian Mongolia. The problem is you have less opportunity to do so, and so take advantage where you can. But practically speaking, the neighbor next door, the one that's closer, the one that you're going to have more accessibility, more opportunity to, I would say, take advantage of that. Jack, what do you think? [00:28:07] Speaker B: I would. [00:28:08] Speaker C: Yeah. To some of what you guys are saying, I think a good way to put it would be to say, be prepared to love the guy in Mongolia more, but you're probably not going to have that opportunity too much. And so I agree with what you guys are saying there. Another verse that comes to mind in this is Mark 7, where Jesus is hitting back on the scribes and Pharisees, and He said verse 10, for Moses said, honor your father and your mother, and he who speaks evil of father or mothers be put to death. But you say, if a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban, that is to say, given to God, you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down, and you do many things such as that. So where they would be like, well, I gave it to the church, I gave it to the temple, I gave it to these causes. Sorry, mom and Dad, I can't help you. Well, obviously, mom and dad, this also gives a hierarchy of loves kind of idea. But well, you know, I'm giving money to church and it's going to people around the world. Therefore, I'm sorry I can't buy a loaf of bread for my next door neighbor. Don't be that guy. I think is the takeaway from this. Now, setting aside, and let's, let's throw out another tough one here are Americans, you know, American Christians. I guess we're talking to Christians. This is a Christian thing. But just in general, are you to love Americans? Are you little of Tennesseans? Are you to love people of your. Your city more than people in Mexico, more than people in Canada, more than so on and so forth? [00:29:28] Speaker A: I definitely think Jack should go first on this one. He made us. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. [00:29:31] Speaker C: I tried. I tried to get away, buddy. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Nice try. [00:29:35] Speaker C: In the same sense of as opportunity. And they are the opportunity. Interestingly, this verse has come up and people are using it on both sides. But in Acts 17, when Paul is preaching at Athens, where he talks about what God did, he said in verse 26 of Acts 17, he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God. And it goes on from there. He put us where we are as the opportunity to bring us to him. And so he put you in America. He put you where you are. That gives you your sense of duty. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that. Once again, this is where I. Not to be this guy. But we have to define what we mean. Do we love Americans more than we love Mexicans, for instance? What does love mean in this discussion where a lot of people would very much disagree with what Jack said, that no, being a Christian means that you're to love everybody and you shouldn't prioritize America. That's nationalism. And of course, Christian nationalism is kind of the buzz phrase and all these things. What does love the Mexican mean? Does it mean to court controversy here, let them go across the border and then come over here with no problem? Like that's what a lot of people are kind of implying. That that means that's where we're. That's where I would disagree with that definition. And so once again, opportunity is kind of the key word here. If you have opportunity to love the Mexican, sure, go for it. But at the end of the day, what does that look like? You know, Joe, you have a. You have a thought. [00:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you think about everything that I do in White Bluff, Tennessee, reverberates in White Bluff, Tennessee. If I go to help my local grocery store chapels, yeah, I'm loving the people at chapels and loving the local grocery store and trying to help out where possible. If I'm speeding through the town like an idiot and just about hitting people, the guy in Mexico does not feel that that absolutely has effects for those in White Bluff. Whether I help them be safe, whether I'm, you know, I'm spotting somebody that's doing something wrong and try to try to help out in that area or if I can go volunteer somewhere or if I can serve on the, the local community board. Like that's me loving not just where I live and you know, I'm or not just like my house. I'm loving those around me to the best of my ability because I do have a duty to those in White Blood, Tennessee to make it a great place to live. I do think this is part of the taking dominion command. You could say I'm taking out of context, but I think it' us trying to help out where we are placed. God is Jack, to your point, in Acts 17, God has placed us with these boundaries, places where we can serve the most. And I do think that's part of the, the dominion mandate is man, go out, take care of the things that are around you, take care of the people that are around you, try to take dominion. And if we can serve Christ more by helping those in White Bluff, Tennessee I'm going to, I can send some money that may or may not make it to those in Mexico or may or may not make it to anybody in Africa. And hey, I'm glad that we do that. On the other hand, I can also really help those in my nearest vicinity through relationships, through things that I would never in a million years get to do for all the people that are in Mexico. If I can help them, great. But realistically speaking, I can make a practical difference for the people in my life in White Bluff, Tennessee by making certain choices that I just are never going to be afforded me for those in Mexico, for those around the globe. So yeah, I think to this one, are we to love Americans more? Yeah. And the fact that we are given more responsibility and more, more opportunities to love them. So theoretically, yeah, I guess we all love them the same, but not really because once again, if I go speeding through, through White Bluff, I'm not loving my people around me. I'm not taking care of those people. It has no. That does not reverberate to Mexico when I, when I do that. You know what I mean? That's a very real life circumstance where I can affect those around me to the positive, to the negative. [00:33:14] Speaker C: Right. The. Of course, one of the first things is this was spun into racism of, well, you love Americans more than other people, therefore, that's what that means. And some of them do mean that. I mean, like, I saw people who was like, yeah, you know, I love people of my skin color more than others. Right. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Not advocating that. [00:33:31] Speaker C: What's interesting is that the Galatians 6, 10, the first Timothy 5, 8 verses that we quoted don't say love. It's about duty. But that tells us a lot in itself. And that we think love is this feeling, this mushy feeling towards people. That's what makes it easy to be like, I just love animals. I just love the rocks and trees. I love the universe. Kind of thing is broad, general love, because it's a feeling that you have. No, it's. It's bound up in duty. And that's what those. Those heat maps show you is your sense of duty is the people around you. And whatever color skin your neighbor is, you have a duty to him. That you don't have a closer bond to white Europe if. If you're a, you know, white American person, or a closer bond to Africa if you're a. I mean, kind of one of the things that set this off was Selena Gomez, the pop star, crying and saying, I can't. You know, this is happening to my people. It's like, I know your last name is Gomez. You're an American. You were born in America. You were raised in America. Why. Why is that your people. Like, that is kind of this. Everyone's got a tie somewhere else but here. And so it's not that. It is that what is the duty to the people around you kind of thing. And that's when we get back to thinking of love as responsibility more than just a. A soft feeling. That's what's going to set these conversations on the right foot once again. [00:34:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really good point. I think, just real fast, I think my question would be based on what a lot of people were saying. If God really did intend for us all to just have this universal global love without really prioritizing the person next door, the person in our country, why is there such a thing as countries? Like, why did he create nations? Why did he create different languages, different people, groups, different cultures? Like, if the entire goal was for everybody, to. Which, you know, obviously this goes back to the Tower of Babel, where they were all one language, they Were all one people group and culture, and God dispersed them and scattered them. To me, if there was an element of God wanting everyone to again, just have this universal love for each other and everybody's all together together, you know, no, nobody. You don't really care for one people group more than another. Why did he create nations? Why did he create cultures, people groups once? [00:35:41] Speaker C: Why did he meet them at Babel? [00:35:43] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. With family being very important to him or being very important to God that, you know, he instituted the family and then kind of work out from there. Once again with your nation, your culture, it seems counterproductive if. If God's entire goal was for us to do again what a lot of people are advocating for, which is just love everybody equally, the whole need for nations and cultures and people groups would not exist. [00:36:07] Speaker B: That Babel point is very interesting. Hadn't really been brought in. But like, clearly God, if it was, hey, everybody should just love everybody the same. He had utopia then when everybody was working together, speaking the same language, taking care of one another, building. [00:36:19] Speaker A: That's not what he wanted. Right? [00:36:21] Speaker B: That's not what he wanted. Hey, I told you to be fruitful, multiply and go fill the earth. Go. Go find your own place. And you did not. Therefore, languages and everybody else, these people groups are started and they go out from Babel. That's a very needed point, Will, that you're making, Jack. You know, coming into that with Babel, like, that's a. I think that's a big part of this discussion. But I wanted to bring it around to. Practically in the church, we're talking 11 Christians in Mongolia and, you know, Americans versus those Mexico, things like that. But we're okay with immigration, obviously, legal immigration, those who are legally coming into the country and things like that. I think that's okay. That's appropriate. I also think that, you know, we made our stance clear on the illegal immigration, on the, you know, what do we. How do we love those people? We've talked about this in the past. We're talking about that here. How do we love those people? You know, what does that look like? But then we come around to the church and Jack, you had said this earlier about this being a very relevant discussion within the church, even if we don't fully realize how. And I think you're right on this. And so how are we seeing this particular ideology manifest in the church today? [00:37:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I wrote on this, oddly, months ago about the title of the article was your Kids Matter More than the Lost. And I'm not trying to Be provocative with that title. I mean it like your first duty is to your own family, to them, to keep them in the faith. And sometimes families over prioritize, and sometimes churches over prioritize the outsider to the point they lose their own. And we're seeing this in the church. And I think Will was the first one to raise this on the podcast a couple years ago that evangelism. There's a guy, I think, writing a book on it right now, he calls it the idol of evangelism. And I think that's a good way to put it is that because everything has become evangelistic, because that's the focus of everything, we'll throw everything else away just to get one more number on the board. And so we have this issue in which it's evangelism, evangelism, evangelism. Everything has to be done to evangelism. And we lose over half of our own kids. That says it all. The fact that we, when we say, hey, we think elders and we don't think the Bible says is what we're going to say, that elders need to have faithful children. And immediately people go, it doesn't say all of them. I mean, two out of four, if he has, you know, five kids and two, you know, there's a plurality there, like, that's not what it says. That's not what it says at all. And the practical implications are we need people who invested in their kids, that their kids mattered more to them than these other duties. Or the idea of the preacher who works 90 hours a week. We talked about on our contribution episodes here recently, that he's expected to work himself to the bone and throw his family under the bus for the sake of the gospel. That's awful. That has to stop happening. And this is the response. This is all downstream from us thinking we're supposed to love the outsider more than our own. Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org/donate. Thanks again for listening. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a drone that I've been banging for a while, but it's the equivalent of, hey, we want to add a new addition to our house. We want to add a, you know, a screened in porch. We want to add, you know, an extension, a really cool room over here and the roof is caving in and like there, there's you know, your, the foundation is absolutely crumbling. That's what we're doing in a lot of our congregations just for the pursuit of adding more people to the board. For the pursuit of. I use this phrase, and I don't mean to be harsh, but padding our baptism stats, padding our baptism numbers. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't have a lot more to say on that, but that's exactly what I find so problematic is that we are pouring million, you know, across the United States. I don't think this is an overstatement. Millions of dollars into domestic evangelism, international evangelism, you know, again, door knocking campaigns, gospel meetings. Let's go bring people and bring people in. And yet we can't really be bothered to try to keep kids faithful. We can't really be bothered to. Well, and that's, that's the other problem is for us, keeping kids faithful means, you know, making sure that they show up to church until they're 18. And after that, man, you know, it's going to be up to them. It's just a complete double standard. But that's. I do. I, I think it's interesting that Jack brought this to the outline of the parallel between loving the lost and loving the people out there more than we love the 14, 15, 16 year old and doing everything that we can do to make sure that they are faithful and getting them to heaven and making sure they are strong, faithful Christian warriors. That's our real family right there. And yet we don't prioritize them. We don't prioritize their spirituality and their faithfulness. We're going to spend all of our time, effort, energy and money to try to get one or two more people once again added to our baptism numbers. It's just. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to keep talk, we're going to keep talking about that for as long as we need to because it seems like it's a blind spot in a lot of congregations. [00:41:24] Speaker B: I remember hearing a story about an elder at a congregation where he was so, you know, he's, hey, great elder helped people, but he was so involved in helping people. Like his family would be on a family vacation and they'd flip a ue if he got a call that somebody at the church needed help and they'd cancel family vacation. No, no, I'm sorry, but your, your job is to be there for your family first. And yeah, you may look at and go, well, this is frivolous and this person needs me. Your family needs you. Your Kids need you. Your wife needs you. They need your uninterrupted time from time to time. You can't always be thinking about everybody else. And this is why PK Is a trope, is the preacher's kid, notoriously, doesn't hardly get any time with dad because Dad's doing, you know, 30, 40, 50 Bible studies during the week type of thing. It's always to somebody else. Dad can't show up to the game because he's too busy ministering to somebody at the hospital. Your duty is to your family. And yes, we're having tons of these kids walk away, but I don't think this is the only place we're seeing. We talked about the financial allocation. We talked about that the last couple episodes with helping those around the world. You know, spending on all these missionaries around the world instead of helping. Really struggling. Yeah. Local benevolence. [00:42:33] Speaker C: So I think you said another one. The making worship for visitors. Dumbing down the sermon. Basically making worship an infomercial for our church. The you'll like it here kind of thing. That is to say, hey, this thing we do on Sunday, I mean, we railed against the open communion thing last year. Well, let's just give it to everybody. You're telling the family, hey, you know, the. The family meal every night. It's really not for you. Like, that's. You can't do this stuff there. There have to be perks. And again, going back to Jesus, point of love one another, as I have loved you. One of the perks of being in the family is you get things that everybody else doesn't. That's one of the things that makes people want to be part of the family. And it is absurd that we get away from this. That we were. Again, it's that we love people more outside the building than the people inside the building. Well, that's not a real love, because it's. It sounds holy and pious, but it's like, no, it's the real people in front of you that God gave you to love. And evangelistic targets can be those people. But this kind of generic, nameless, faceless. The Lost. Yeah, it's real easy to love them and prioritize them and all that stuff, but you just end up costing yourself the people nearest to you. Yeah. [00:43:43] Speaker B: Your key point is practicality. Bring practicality in the discussion, and all of a sudden, things get real. And when things get real is when common sense will reign. At the end of the day, when we boil this entire episode down and the entire online discussion, it Comes down to Jack, your point about loving your wife versus Jennifer Aniston. Like, come on guys, let's get very practical with it. Let's bring it down to brass tacks. Are you really going to, you know, are you really going to save the stranger over your kid? And if you say, well, I probably would, then you have a problem. I'm sorry, you have a problem. Your duty is to your son. Your duty is to your kids. Your duty is to protect your wife. You were put in charge of them to protect them. I can very much biblically make that case. And logically speaking, like this is a no brainer, we have lost our brain. And anytime somebody enters into the discussion with like, hey, Christian theologian type, I don't care, I don't care. Let's get on a brass tacks. Are you going to put your money where your mouth is when everything is on the line? Because unless that's the case, don't talk to me. Don't talk to me unless you're willing to do the, to make those sacrifices and to sacrifice your kid or your wife or anything else. Or somebody comes in, I can't possibly. The John Piper thing, I can't possibly defend my wife and kids against somebody coming in to abuse them, somebody coming in to shoot them because I would be hurting somebody else. Are you kidding me? You have completely lost your mind if that is the case. And yet there are tons of Christians online pushing this stuff thinking that that's okay. I just can't understand how people could wrap their minds around it. And once again, their attempt to look pious and holy is killing us. Stop trying to look pious and holy and get busy doing the actual work of loving those in your sphere, doing the actual work of raising kids unto the Lord, not just to show up to church when they're 30, but to actually participate in church to be warriors for Christ. Yeah, that takes a little more effort than, hey, I wrote a check for the church in the Philippines. Hey, I did this homeless mission and I went down to Mexico and built some houses for somebody. That is great. Are your kids faithful? Are you leading your wife? Are you doing family Bible study? Are your kids growing? Are you growing spiritually in the faith? Is your church benefiting from you being there? Or are you just posting all your pictures online about going to Mexico? No, let's. Come on people, let's get real brass tacks here. You gotta love those in your sphere and make a difference with where you are. Instead of always trying to go around the world and save everybody else, start in your home. [00:45:55] Speaker C: Well, briefly, I want to hit on that because it's a great point, but. And if your home is doing well, that's when you are fit to be an elder. That's when you are fit to go do short term missions. That's when you are fit to. We're not saying don't do these good things. It's you give from stability, you give from excess. If you have enough and your family is well fed, you give. That's the next thing you look to do is give elsewhere. Absolutely. And again, rippling outward from closest to you to outward for sure. And the missionaries and like, we need to support all of those things. But it's. A lot of people have made this illustration. I've made it before too. That's what they tell you on an airplane. Get your oxygen mask on first, then those around you, then help it, like start there. And if your family is drowning, if your church is not set, if you're whatever else, that's the responsibility God gave you. That's when you want to know what is my duty? What am I supposed to do? Literally look around you. That's your answer. [00:46:50] Speaker B: And when we're losing 60 to 70 to 75% of our youth, clearly we didn't understand this. Clearly not. We got to get our own houses. Right. Because you may look at that and go, well, that's me. Okay, maybe on an individual level, church wide, three out of four are walking away. Three out of five, one or the other are walking away, never to darken the doors again. We have a problem in the church and these are the solutions that it's going to have to start taking is, man, we got to spend a lot more time with our family and get serious about these things. [00:47:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think my closing comments would be similar to what you guys have already said. Don't deny your common sense. You can get on, you can get online, you can again read all these people that are really trying to sound spiritual and really trying to sound like they are, you know, the smartest, biblically, most biblically knowledgeable guys in the room telling you that your neighbor is the, is the same as your family. And again, the person over in India is the same as your family. Don't deny your common sense. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that God does call you to love your son. God does call you to love your wife, your daughter more than the person that you really have, that you have no connection to overseas. He calls you to love the person that's sitting beside you. In the pew on Sunday morning more than the person at the grocery store. Don't let people create straw men to say, oh, so you're saying you should treat the grocery store clerk poorly? Of course not. Like, don't, don't fall. Don't fall for these tricks that people are going to try to present on social media because they don't have a strong enough position and they know it. So they're going to create stuff like that to try to throw people off. Don't fall for that stuff. There is common sense to, to be had here and I would just encourage people to not. Don't, don't reject your common sense. You can treat everybody with kindness, treat everyone with love, but there is a priority ranking here, if you will. It starts with your family, your church family, and goes and radiates outward from there. So that would, those would just be my last thoughts once again. So don't fall for the, the stupid stuff that people are gonna put out there online that doesn't really have any kind of intellectual substance. [00:48:43] Speaker C: Absolutely. The, the good you do out there builds on the good you do at home. Start, start at home. Start close to home. So this is a bit of a shorter one. Again, kind of some folks under the. Well, I don't know how Joe's feeling. Will's a little under the weather. I might be getting there. I don't know. We'll see. But I know there's a lot of that going around. Hope everyone's doing well. But yeah, we'll, we'll have a deep end on this one, I think should be real interesting. Be sure to get your comments in if you're a Focus plus subscriber. If you're not Focus plus to find out more. And Joe, do you have something? [00:49:13] Speaker B: No, I was going to say we could, we could do a little think fast. I thought of one that I think would be fun, but we can also wrap up. [00:49:18] Speaker C: All right. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Okay, go for it. The biggest trade of probably the decade. [00:49:22] Speaker C: Oh, my. [00:49:22] Speaker B: For those and for those in basketball. [00:49:24] Speaker C: Sports fan, you can tune out, but. [00:49:25] Speaker A: I think probably like 10% of our audience. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But, you know, big basketball trade with a shocking. Luka Doncic traded for Anthony Davis. Most people aren't going to care that are listening. What I was thinking is what is the most shocking. If you were living in biblical times, what do you think would be the most shocking headline to come through? You wake up this morning and you go, whoa, that took place last night. [00:49:46] Speaker C: Hypothetical or something that happened. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Something that happened. Something in scripture Like I was thinking like David defeating Goliath. If I got news of that, it might be one of those, like, what, you know, what do you think is the most shocking? Obviously the resurrection would be number one. I suppose that's of all time. But what's. And I'm putting you on the spot because I didn't tell you this before, but what do you think is the most shocking headline in scripture? [00:50:08] Speaker A: As I'm just kind of going through genuinely speaking, like with this popular as Jesus was the headline of him getting arrested and getting crucified, probably, that'd probably be a big one. Like if you were somebody who listened to him, you know, saw the miracles he performed, like he was a pretty well known guy. And then to wake up with the headline of like, oh, he was arrested and killed, like, that'd be a pretty big one. [00:50:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:28] Speaker B: I was thinking Saul to Paul, you know, that might be a big one. Is this guy that's killing Christians and all of a sudden he's changed course. I don't think I had to believe it. [00:50:35] Speaker C: Talk about a trade that change that shook up the league. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:50:40] Speaker A: That's true. [00:50:41] Speaker B: Exactly. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:50:42] Speaker C: The empire is falling would be a really big deal. So Egypt, you know, hey, Pharaoh and the army just are gone. And it's kind of like, hey, everybody, Egypt's free for the taking. Which I think some of that happened. But if I have my history right, the other one being Babylon falling the night of the handwriting on the wall of, hey, they were partying real big. And now the Medes and the Persians, like, I think that would. I mean, they did shake up the world. So that's a great one. [00:51:06] Speaker A: I think also if there was a headline about the Red Sea parting and a whole nation walking across dry land, that'd be a pretty big one. [00:51:12] Speaker C: Yeah, right. And that it ended in Pharaoh and everybody dying. Yeah, that's. I mean, I mean, there's so many miracles you can draw on. I mean, the flood, there's no headlines. There's nobody there to write them. But you know, like, yeah, Noah wakes up. [00:51:25] Speaker B: What, that happened? [00:51:28] Speaker C: Well, later on, yes. But I don't think that happened on the arc. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Holy cow. [00:51:34] Speaker C: We're not going in that direction again. But great, great thing fast, will you. Joe, did you have one? Oh, go. [00:51:40] Speaker B: No, I was think. I was thinking the salt thing or even David defeating Goliath, I think. [00:51:44] Speaker C: Okay, a big one. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Last thing. We completely forgot to talk about this. We have a benefit dinner coming up for focus. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Oh, goodness. [00:51:51] Speaker A: February 28th, starting at 6. So that is a Friday night starting at 6pm I believe again, February 28th. It is in Lebanon, Highland Heights Church of Christ. Yeah. No, we've got a good amount of listeners who are probably fairly close to that within, within range. We'd love, we'd love to meet you, we'd love for, for you to come out there again, 6pm Feb. 28. We'll probably mention it every episode here on out and provide a few more details, costs and things like that moving forward. But wanted to let you know in case you're at least somewhat interested, go ahead and get on your calendar. [00:52:23] Speaker C: We'd love to see you focuspress.org benefit you can RSVP. You can even buy a ticket right now if you'd want. So yeah, be sure to check that out. FocusPress.org benefit I'm glad you remember that because we, we do need to mention that. So that's good. Again, we'll see you guys on the deep end who are in Focus Plus. Otherwise, leave us a comment, shoot us a message. We'd love to hear from you on this one and we'll talk to you guys next.