Guide, Guard, and Direct Us: Church of Christ Lingo

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Your co host, Will. Here I'm joined by Joe and Jack Wilkie. Excited to get into this week's episode here in just a second. I did want to ask you guys, though. We are now three weeks back from our mini hiatus. First time, you know, streak, streak was broken unfortunately. But guys, I just wanted to kind of check in and see what is it like going from a month of no recording at all to, you know, twice a week? Like we've, like, we're back on the. The schedule adjustment has been a little bit different for me. I'll say. [00:00:43] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what I noticed. I was talking to my wife about it. Like, it was kind of nice, you know, not having to think about the schedule. I. I honestly miss being on here. I miss talking to you guys. Obviously, we were talking and texting plenty and seeing each other at church, but it is different to be able to get on here. We shoot the breeze, obviously, for a little bit before and after, and so it's always enjoyable. I never worry about this part of it, but the planning and the scheduling is difficult just because we're all really, really busy. I mean, between us now, we have 11 kids, so lots going on this. [00:01:18] Speaker B: 10:15Pm at night after a full day. [00:01:22] Speaker C: Of work, Wednesday for all three of us. And so, you know, that part's a little bit difficult. On the other hand, it's good to be back. It's always good to talk with you guys and to share topics like this. I am actually very, very excited about this one. Jack threw this one out there. I think we had talked about it before. I can't remember, Jack, if you had the main thought on it, but I'm sorry, I don't want to steal your answer to that. How are you adjusting to change? [00:01:43] Speaker A: I like, you know, when we have the topic and we can kind of mull over it a couple days, you know, it's kind of in the back of your mind. I did miss that and obviously the getting on recording. So, yeah, it's nice to have it back. [00:01:54] Speaker B: I will say the month of like, oh, I've got this take I want to give. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:01:58] Speaker B: And like, we can you do it. Like, that was hard. We even did the extra deep end episode about Austin Metcalf because we all wanted to get on there and talk about it. [00:02:04] Speaker A: So yelling takes the strangers out the window, that kind of thing. [00:02:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:02:08] Speaker B: My wife was exhausted listening to all my takes that I usually spend on you guys now. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Yeah, you're Back on the couple in. [00:02:14] Speaker C: On Jim, you know, that helped, had an extra outlet. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Well, let's go ahead and get into this episode. Jack previewed it on his Facebook last week. If any of our listeners are Facebook friends with Jack, we're talking about kind of generic Church of Christ phrases. I will say if you're a listener who does not happen to be in the Church of Christ, don't turn it off. Some of these you are probably going to be familiar with. This is just, you know, we kind of, all three of us have grown up in the church our entire lives, and we have heard each of these conservatively, dozens of times, liberally, hundreds of, you know, if not thousands of times from, in prayers, from pulpits, during sermons. Just a lot of these are kind of embedded into the. Yeah. Into the lingo, into the language of the Church of Christ. And we want to examine them. We want to take a look at, you know, kind of the, the biblical nature of some of these. And, you know, there's. There might be some people that have a bit of a tendency or might look at this and say, okay, is this really important? Like, are you nitpicking? Is this something that, you know, are we. Is this being too harsh? Like, look, first of all, two things. One, we are open to discussing just about anything on this podcast. This is something that, you know, if we think it's important to discuss or if we think it's. It's interesting to discuss, we'll discuss it. We're going to think deeper about it then. Secondly, people care about it, and we want to record podcasts on things people care about. Like, Jack posted that earlier today, and it's over, like, 30 comments, I'm pretty sure. So people care about it. So if you're one of those people, just, just bear with us, is what I would say. But, guys, any, any introductory thoughts? Again, a lot of these we have heard and probably think nothing of for the most part, until we kind of sit down and compile this list. Like, oh, yeah, people do say that all the time. We want to look at. I don't speak for you guys, but like, maybe less from a. Like, should we use them or should we not use them type of thing and just more so look, you know, examine it and say, what are. What kind of lies behind this? Like, what are some of the, the, the underlying implications of phrases like this? So what introductory thoughts would you guys have to. [00:04:06] Speaker A: That I want to say? I mean, it's from a place of love, you know, it's kind of, you know, We. We poke fun at each other. You know, you kind of. You can rip somebody a little bit and. Because you love them and they know that. And so when we make fun of guidegarden Direct us or something like that, you know. And how many times do you hear that? And what does that mean? It's not like a, wow, what are these idiots doing? We've done pretty. We've said pretty much all of these phrases, so I just wanted to say that as well. [00:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't think I realized how many we use until Jack, you posted that. Because we were coming up with our own. We had added a few to the list. And then you posted that and seeing all the comments like, yeah, we do use those. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker C: Oh, man, I used to hear that. Or you so. And so used to. It kind of brought up some memories for me of people that used to say these phrases that maybe I don't hear quite as much. So once again, it's done out of fun. A lot of this is out of fun. We have split them a little bit into, like, lighter versus heavier. I think there are some theologically richer ones that we do want to get to that. And the other thing is, we can get so rote with a lot of these things. Gygarden direct. What does that actually mean? What are we saying in that moment? It's not that it's wrong to say it, but we want to make sure that, especially in our prayer life and our worship, things like that, it's very intentional. And so this is just an opportunity to slow down, make sure that we're intentional with our phrases, with our words. We can throw these out. A lot of the world doesn't understand what we're saying, and not that it's for them anyway, but I think it's good to examine these from time to time. So, like I said, I'm excited about it, but who wants to kick us off as we get into it? [00:05:29] Speaker A: I hope we have a ready recollection of all the things we're going to cover. So I guess we'll start there. Well, we'll start there on the lighter side of some of these things that you hear. I've referenced two of them already, so I'm kind of stealing our thunder, jumping the gun a little bit. But you hear that? Guide garden, Direct us almost. [00:05:47] Speaker C: It's. [00:05:48] Speaker A: It's the closing prayer. I heard a guy say it at the opening prayer one time. I was like, hang on a second, buddy. You're out of order here. But, you know, you'll hear it to finish the worship service or whatever else. Again, nothing wrong with it, but let's think through. Guide and direct are very similar. Right. So we do want God to guide and guard us, direct us that this. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Is actually one that I don't think I have ever said just because this is. I, I've noticed like it's kind of just thinking something people say. And I think all three of those are there scripture to back up all of those. Obviously, you know, the Lord directs our steps and you know the idea of God being our refuge, our rock, like a bit of, you know, so. And obviously guide you could definitely see in scripture. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I do think it's mindlessly said most of the time. Joe, looks like you have a thought, so I'll hand it over to you. [00:06:36] Speaker C: I'm curious, like why those three phrases. We could pray all sorts of stuff to wrap up a prayer. Guy. It does, but it's not even perfect alliteration. I was trying to think of like another G instead of direct. You know, I, I did look it. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Up and there is no like one place that originated that is interesting. [00:06:53] Speaker C: Yeah, you'd think that's lead us, love us. [00:06:55] Speaker B: It's like the one guy that started it and then it caught on. He should have trademarked it or something. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Because it's that the guy that everybody says I and I know he's got a couple of these phrases was Batzelberry Baxter. We call him Better Business Bureau is what I used to say because it's the triple bbb. But he's man I've heard so many people talk about. Oh, his brother Battle Bear Baxter used to say. And then they'd say something. I don't think this originated with him. But it's these type of things that get started where a famous preacher, somebody, everybody is like universally loved, will say something and I think people will then kind of take it. And if, especially if you're at a bigger congregation, I think that's how some of these things get rolling is guy says it, I don't know, 80 years ago, 60 years ago, whatever it is. And then the next guy gets up and says it and it starts from there. I could very much see that being the. So I'm not saying that that's so Barrett Baxter started it, triple B. But you know that type of thing where just a well known preacher has these phrases that get used because we've had them repeated. You know, I've had his phrases repeated in sermons and things like that. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Well, saying. I'll move us into the second one because it's kind of similar. Like, again, this is just kind of caught on. Separate and apart from the Lord's Supper is the next one. This is used all the time, you know, most times around the table. And I. I think from. From what I've observed, it's really done. It's said to kind of emphasize and, like, ensure that people don't think that the Lord's Supper and contribution are the same. Like, it's like, we got to make sure that everybody knows these are not the same. In fact, some congregations you'll go to, you'll see, like, they'll do a song in between the two. You know, the Lord Supper song, contribution. Some I've even been to will do one or one of those at the beginning, the whole rest of the service sermon, and then the other one, like, at the. Like, separate, basically, as far as they possibly can. And I think that's where this one stems from is like, just kind of the overemphasizing of, like, this is not the same. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a strong take necessarily. I mean, I'm. [00:08:44] Speaker C: I. [00:08:44] Speaker B: This is one. I'm sure I have said before. Obviously, it is separate. It is apart. Like, these two are not. They're not the same. It's just more of a. And that's the other thing you'll hear is as a matter of convenience, the elders have decided. Yeah, I mean, it's overused. I would say. It's. It's a cliche thing to say. It is true, I would say. What thoughts do you guys have on that? [00:09:02] Speaker C: I think it can help. I actually grew up thinking that the giving was the biggest part of the Lord's Supper. [00:09:06] Speaker A: I got culmination. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:09:09] Speaker C: Like, all right, we've got this point now. It's the. Now we pass around. Because you're passing around. Certain. You pass around the tray. Right. With the bread and with the juice, and then, you know, the next thing you pass around. Of course, it's the basket. And so it's just all kind of the same. It's a similar feel to it. Everybody's doing the same thing. So I really appreciate churches that do separate it. We did this at Lone Tree. This is a way to kind of, in our mind, separate it. But because we use it so much, separate and apart, it just goes by the wayside. I heard that growing up, and I still didn't understand separate and apart. Like, it's different. This is a different part of our worship we've moved into. So I think we could probably be a little more intentional with it, but I don't have any problem with using it. I think it can be helpful. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I don't love when a worship service is kind of like the one on one. Like, hey, here's why we do this, here's why we do this. Here's why we do this. [00:09:54] Speaker B: Sure. [00:09:55] Speaker A: But it is good sometimes to have those reminders of, hey, this is. This part. This is that this is the point of this and separating those two things. The Lord's supper and contribution is important to understand. So it's. It's good by me. All right, so another one. We don't have to spend much time on this, but the ready recollection. We pray for the preacher to have a ready recollection. That's one where it is just alliteration. I think it just. [00:10:19] Speaker B: I find it funny, though, like, name one other time in anybody's life where they use that. [00:10:23] Speaker C: I was literally thinking that, like, this is a one and done phrase, man. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Anybody ever had ready recollection other than a preacher? [00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the thing. Like, no other job. Do you hear this? Like, the guy that's about to get up and give his. His speech to the shareholders. Right. Hey, man, hope you have a ready recollection. Like, nobody ever. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Your kid's going for like, his math test, you know, that's. I hope he has a ready recollection of his algebra. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Gets in and starts preaching. Yeah, I. This is. There's several of these phrases that are like, you will hear these one place and one place only. This is never going to be repeated anywhere else. Which is kind of odd. Not that I'm saying they're. So maybe this is a good place to park on it. Should there be those things that are specifically. Because if you think about. Talk about high church, right. You think about a liturgy, a liturgical worship, There are certain things you're going to do there that just aren't done anywhere else. We sing in other places. We give money to the homeless. You know, things like that. Obviously, the Lord's Supper is a once a week, like first day of the week, and we take it very seriously. But even listening to sermons, so much of the things that we do in worship can be replicated, can be thought about during the week, things like that. Do you find it helpful to have little quips, little phrases like this in only a worship context, in only a prayer context, or do you think that is it negligible I mean, maybe we're just splitting. [00:11:37] Speaker A: It's natural where it's just going to happen, you know, where you're here and you speak a certain way because you do the same thing of, you know, you go to the baseball game, there's things you say that you just don't say elsewhere. That'd be weird to say elsewhere. And the same thing, you know, your workplace, depending on what you do. You know, things like that, that phrases, lingo, what that you just pick up on and repeat there. But you know, it's funny, you say the liturgy, you think of. Okay, our Church of Christ low church liturgy is starting with an opening prayer for the preacher's ready recollection. Right in the middle, you have a separate and apart and you end with a guide garden directus. There you go, you've hit your weekly literature. [00:12:29] Speaker B: I'm gonna be. This is the cynical. Maybe this is the cynical part of me, like. And I'm not trying again. This is not trying to dog anybody. I've said a lot of these things before. I do think a lot of it said pretty mindlessly, you know, in the sense of. And when I say mindlessly, like, you know, you know, our public prayers, I'm again just as guilty. I will put myself on the front row here of kind of the same routine. I try very hard to not say the same phrases, say the same words, even go in the same order in my prayers. But I think a lot of people, you know, not as, not as public speaking, you know, it doesn't come as naturally. You know, praying honestly is one of the more nerve wracking things I feel like when you're up in front of a congregation. And so it is just a little bit easier sometimes to have kind of those crutch phrases that may be done a little bit mindlessly. So. Joe, I appreciate the thought. I don't know that it's as deep as yours. [00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I was just curious, but yeah, probably not. I was just curious about it goes along with the next one again, we don't spend time on it too much like the next appointed time. [00:13:24] Speaker A: I think that's trying to throw a bone to James 4, you know, about kind of if the Lord wills or whatever else. Like we have planned another time so we're going to pray, kind of point it toward that. But that goes with the guide garden. Direct us a little bit as well. [00:13:37] Speaker B: That one is bring us back to the next appointed time. Like, what about all the people that don't come back? Did God not bring them back at the Next time, you know, like. [00:13:43] Speaker C: Yeah, that is interesting. Always thought of with that and appointed by the elders. Like the point of time that we've appointed or appointed by like whenever God appoints. Is that what it's saying? Like the appointed time, which is the elders of saints. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, Sunday. [00:13:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I got you. Okay, the next one is interesting. Once again, these are the. On the lighter end, the jewels in your crown. What are your guys thoughts on that concept? Maybe there's another. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Explain the concept a bit. There's a whole episode in it. [00:14:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I think we can get more out of this. But the idea is like oh well, you did a good deed, another jewel in your crown. Those type of things somebody praise. Yeah, yeah, just a jewel in your. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Like the heavenly version of a feather in your cap. [00:14:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that's exactly what it is. You got another jewel in your crown up in heaven. Yeah, there's, there's a, like an entire theology surrounding this concept actually. Let's. So I don't know if we want to just save that, but off the top of your head, what are your thoughts on that, that phrase that we throw out? Oh, just jewel in your crown, you know, another jewel in your crown. I'm not a big fan of it, but what are your guys thoughts? [00:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I've always heard of like believe it or not actually with, with your mom and my mom saying like when they wouldn't let each the other one do the dish. It's like you're taking jewels crown. Like you're not letting me do these, you're not letting me do these good deeds. [00:14:54] Speaker C: That's. [00:14:54] Speaker B: That's the only place that I can actually remember, the only context I remember them using that. But yeah, it doesn't seem to be super scriptural. Again I'll save I guess my main thoughts if we do an episode on it. But like just briefly looking up like Zechariah9 talks about on that day the Lord their God will save them as the flocks of his people. For like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land. It's basically the only place you're going to see anything like that. Specifically with the good deeds being jewels in your crown. Like I don't, I don't see that really anywhere in scripture. So there's my brief answer. [00:15:23] Speaker A: It's a weird thing to say, I think, but I guess I'll save the whole discussion about reward now that works for when we do that episode. [00:15:30] Speaker C: That'd be very interesting. Yeah. Levels of heaven and levels of hell as we're Talking about, like, are there more the better rewards. Last one. I'm not actually familiar with this one. Leave all worldly thoughts and concerns. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Never heard anybody say this. [00:15:42] Speaker C: Man. [00:15:42] Speaker B: I'm surprising. [00:15:43] Speaker C: Thank you. Concept. This is. [00:15:47] Speaker B: This is usually an opening prayer thing as opposed to the closing prayer thing. You know, as we enter into this worship, let us leave us. They set aside all worldly thoughts and. And concerns. I'm sure this is again, one. I'm sure I've said it. I think it's a good thing to say. I mean, yeah, as with all of these, if it's a mindless thing, it's not great. But I do think for a worship setting, for the most part, you know, you probably need to be, you know, God. God centered as far as your mind goes, and focused on, of course, the sacrifice of Christ and the Lord's Supper and not really thinking about the stresses of your job or your fantasy football team or obviously things like that. And so, yeah, I think it's a perfectly good thing to say. [00:16:25] Speaker C: Let me ask this real fast. Do you think that when we pray for all of the sick, everybody on the bulletin in the same prayer that we pray this, do you think that, like, to me it negates it? I don't ever pray when I'm opening prayer. I don't ever pray for everybody on the bulletin because it's like the opening prayer is a time to get your mind right on God, to leave all worldly cares and concerns behind. And it just feels like we draw all our minds to man, oh man, I hope that person is okay. Wow, I wonder how they're doing. I need to reach out to that person. Like, if that's how everybody else's mind goes the way mine does, I think that takes away from the opening prayer. So I really like this phrase that it does draw our minds back into it. I think we need to be a little more, I don't know, once again, a little more intentional with what we're trying to do with the opening prayer where we pray. Leave those things behind while we're still focusing on those things. Maybe I'm nitpicking. [00:17:11] Speaker A: No, I think that's a good point. I think, you know, obviously there is a time and a place to pray for everybody on the prayer list. But you're right, you know, of worship is a time to kind of turn the attention to God and you kind of think about in terms of entering the tabernacle, entering the temple, whatever else, just kind of like leave some things at the door, you know, and not that the church building is that, but that the worship is that so. All right. Those are the kind of, the lighter, you know, goofier ones. 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Just kind of that, that pairing it's always said to mean like hey if we're going to do something, you need to be able to show book, chapter, verse, show where it came from. Not really invent our own terminology, but base it in the scriptures. Obviously there's real good to that. Is there any bad to that? Or is the good really strong and there's not any bad? What do you guys do with that? [00:18:53] Speaker B: I think there is some bad to it. I'll start with the good. There is certainly value as far as I think of church leadership positions, pastors, elders. We make a big deal about calling what the denominations will call a pastor is just basically the preacher who is very involved in the leadership and that's their pastor. Whereas we would look at that and say well really the only biblical term for pastor is somebody who's an elder. And so I think that's where you know, you could see value of like Bible things by Bible names. Let's, let's go with what the Bible says on this. Only problem is with that you'll have some people that think Church of Christ has to be on the building when it's like in the Bible they have Church of God, Church of the Saints, all that kind of stuff. That's side thing. Um, but where I think I have more of a problem with the Bible things and Bible doing Bible things in Bible ways as opposed to the names thing because to me that that's just not specific enough. Oh, you know, if you, especially if you just throw it out there like, oh, just do Bible things in Bible ways. Like, okay, pretty much anything. There's a lot of things that could fall into that. You know, doing some doing things. Doing Bible things in Bible ways to me is just a bit of a blanket statement that is not specific enough. There's a lot of ambiguity to it. I don't know if I'm articulating this well. But like, I don't know. I just, I don't, I tend as a. Just kind of, maybe this is a personality thing. I don't like kind of platitudes that are just thrown out there without surrounding context. And this to me falls into that. Let's do Bible things in Bible ways. Okay, what does that mean? That's a nice thing to say, but there's a lot that can fall into that. And so that, that's kind of where I am not a huge fan of that phrase. But obviously again there's value to some extent. What would you guys add to that? [00:20:24] Speaker C: I think there's nuance to things like this and this is what the nuance or these phrases struggle to really grasp the nuance of the Bible. Well, Bible things, Bible ways and we in the church, I'm just going to call it. I don't think we're great at this where it's like, well, just read the Bible and you'll know you'll get it. Like, yeah, but the Calvinists are reading the same Bible as me. They just interpret it differently. So if we go Bible things and Bible ways or by Bible names. [00:20:50] Speaker B: That's my point. [00:20:51] Speaker C: Yes. They're reading the exact same thing. You're seeing it from two different angles. Well, if they just read it with an honest heart, like, well, who gets to determine what's an honest heart? Who gets to determine who's right in this situation? Try explaining this to somebody one time to a church Christ fellow member. She couldn't grasp this concept. But just read the Bible like, no, but they are reading the Bible like they interpret it, they see it differently. So that's the danger of this is there's nuance. As you start getting into define what Bible things are, define what Bible ways are. How would you know? Are we taking Bible ways from the Calvinist or are we taking it from the Church of Christ? So I get the point. I'm not against it. Sola. Scripture is kind of the idea here. Like we just go back to the Bible. We want to make sure love that Concept, we don't need to bring in extracurriculars here. On the other hand, we also need to be willing to kind of, I don't know, get down in the muck and mire a little bit of some of these theological discussions before we just throw out those meaningless platitudes like you're talking about. So, yeah, I think there's. There is a downside to this in that situation. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Jack, do you have a thought? Because I wanted to go ahead and there's another one that's similar to this that I was just gonna go ahead and get. [00:21:54] Speaker C: Speak. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Where the Bible speaks, to me is very, very similar to this. Of just kind of. It's not specific enough and where you'll see that one pair. And I apologize for kind of jumping the outline here, but to me, these are fairly similar. Of this one is paired speak. The Bible speaks is typically paired with but be silent, where the Bible is silent. And obviously that is almost always used in the instrumental music context of Bible, New Testament, specifically silent instrumental music. Therefore, that is why we don't use it. I was looking up some stuff for this one specifically of the Speak. Where the Bible speaks. You could loosely, if you're trying to find kind of a biblical place in the Bible of like, where's that? Where would you get that idea? First Peter 4, 11 is what came up. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it, as with the ability which God supplies. And then he continues on. And so you can see it. Bit of a, you know, bit of a stretch, I would say. But to me, once again, my issue with this one, which is not in and of itself necessarily a bad thing to say is how inconsistently applied this one is. We'll speak what the Bible speaks. Okay. The Bible speaks about head coverings. Do we speak about that? Not really. The Bible speaks about, you know, there are certain things in the Bible about women not wearing braided hair and jewelry. The Bible speaks, you know, braid briefly. Say it, move on. Bible speaks about alcohol. Bible speaks about a lot of things. And we to for us, just throw that out there and it'll speak what the Bible speaks. Like. The Bible speaks about a lot of things. Greeting one another with a holy kiss speaks about that. We don't really do that. Speaks about lifting holy hands. We don't do that either. And so I just feel like it's very inconsistently applied. And that's why, to me, it's similar to the Bible things and Bible ways like Bible things And Bible ways apparently is lifting holy hands and greeting with the holy kiss. And like, for certain things, we want to show, we want to, you know, say that it's cultural. And this is. Speaks to Joe's point about interpretation. But I have a bigger problem with this one. Just in the sense of like, it's pretty inconsistently applied from my view. [00:23:45] Speaker C: Well, you're stepping on hermeneutics here. And the inference. I think there's a. But, Jack, what are your thoughts on that? [00:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah, because somebody is going to jump in. Well, those things are cultural. It's like, well, exactly then. And you can make that case. And the minute you make that case. And this is Will's whole point is you're moving off of. This is so simple. This is speak where the Bible speaks where it speaks. Yeah. And there's the other question of like, is the silence of Scripture permissive or is it prohibitive that if the Bible hasn't spoken on it, what can we do something about it? And again, like that that's oversimplifying thing the Bible doesn't speak on. Can you have a pitch pipe, you know, things like that. And of course we can extrapolate and make a good argument for it and all that, but it's kind of like, well, then you're not being silent where the Bible silent. Because the Bible silent on it and the permissive silence and you know, it's. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Silent on youth groups. It's silent. [00:24:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:34] Speaker B: You know, song leaders, a lot of. [00:24:36] Speaker C: Stuff that we do definitely sign on vbs, of course. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Of course. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Silent Halloween. Right, Joe? [00:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So the problem is there, there's people gonna be hearing that and going, amen, brother. And then you look at what they're doing and they're just tearing everything down and saying, we get to do whatever we want. And the people to your right are gonna think that's what you're trying to do when you critique the way this hermeneutic plays out. That's not what we're trying to do, but it is an acknowledgment of like, there is more homework to do. And my big critique of the speak where the Bible speaks silent, where it's silent and Bible things and Bible ways and Bible names, all those things is it's trying to distill the Bible down to the list, to the doctrinal statement that the one that we can't write out and put on the wall, you know, because there's no creed but Christ. That's one we're not going to get into today. Because we've done it before. But, you know, like, you're trying to come up with that by instituting these principles, but you have to break these principles to get to that. And so then it's like, well, so those principles are very basic guidelines. They are not all encompassing ideas. [00:25:35] Speaker C: And the issue with this is everybody kind of gets to decide. So, for instance, you go back to the cultural discussion. So agree one another. The holy kiss. Very cultural. Okay, we can all agree. Yeah, that's a cultural thing. Well, they're going to look at head coverings, they're going to look at. They're going to look at women's roles. They're going to look at a lot of things as cultural. And we're going to go, whoa, whoa, that's not cultural. He appeals to Eve. He appeals to other things, which I think is legit. I think that's relevant. But now we're kind of giving, like we're handing everybody the tools. This is part of the no creed but Christ. Like, we're handing everybody the tools to go build it the way they see fit. And then we're shocked when there's a lot of disunity, like when there's a lot of division is because everybody kind of gets to decide the hermeneutic they're living by. And if somebody looks at it and goes, I don't see it as a command, you know, or I think silence is permissive. We can easily say, well, silence is prohibitive. No, it is. Okay, show that in scripture. How do we know? Well, the Bible's silent on silence being prohibitive. So how can we know? It's the way that we're looking at it. And one's going to be more on the rule keeping, like, hey, very conservative down the line. Another one's going to be on the liberal, like maybe the rebellious end. And we're trying to all find various shades of gray and find the middle point there. And that's almost impossible to do. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you're of course right, Joe. But again, I'll just bring up, like, there's a lot of common Church of Christ practices that the Bible is very silent on. Youth groups is just the biggest one coming to mind right now. And I know both of you too, and I'm place, so to speak, but I'm on the train as well of like, not being the biggest fans of youth groups in the world. Bible's very silent on that. The Bible is very silent on a lot of the things that the order of worship. [00:27:05] Speaker C: How, like share on that. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah, and so that's just the inconsistent application is what bothers me. And that's where you get to what Jack said about like, well, at what point do you kind of make a specific binding on everything? Well, you can't do that. And so that's just where, once again, I find like a speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible. Bible is silent as a platitude to be thrown out there. Pretty, pretty useless. Like it's just not useful in turn. Again, I know most people are use it to try to, in my opinion, accurately say that we should not be using instrumental music. I just think it's a very poor argument and a pretty easily rebuttable one if you're somebody who is pro instruments. [00:27:44] Speaker C: Well, it goes to the next one, which is the pattern. And we talk about the pattern. The pattern. So Bible things by Bible names or in Bible ways speak where the Bible speaks and then we'll throw out, well, the pattern, follow the pattern. Once again, the pattern hasn't been laid out for every last thing. How to handle smartphones, we have you say the pattern, I suppose, you know, like we have principles to follow. But then that also breaks a little bit of the hermeneutics of just having using the Bible as a principle book. Well, there are some things that are commands and there's some things that are principles. General guidelines. We don't really want to get into proverbs. In the, you know, in, in the church, we don't talk about all that much. So when we get into things like prom, can't bind it, can't bind that. So, okay, well, principles just went out the window. So when do we get to use principles versus when do we not get to use principles? When we talk about the pattern, what's principles, what's command, what's binding, what's not binding? So we're really getting into the gray area. And this is why somebody comes along. We all know the brotherhood brothers that have written us off and written letters about us. And they are, man, they are gung ho to come down hard on these things. And people will follow that because to your point, Jack, they want the list. They want the list. Just tell me what to do. Make sure that I can get it right. Give me the pattern. Let me get the pattern. Like, well, we got to go back to the pattern of the Bible, the pattern of the New Testament, the pattern of the early church. Okay, well, they're going to have their interpretation of exactly what that looks like. And it's going to be step by step. A lot easier to follow than somebody having to kind of wade through these things and come to their own conclusions on how they feel about it. So to me, the pattern is the same thing as like the creed. We don't want to say it's a creed. I know people use it in different ways. What they're talking about is the pattern of the New Testament Church. By and large we can use a lot of that. But if you were to read Acts, the end of Acts 2, 42, 47 and then the end of Acts 4 as they're getting into it and they're having all things in common and sharing and selling their property and giving, like if we're going to talk about that as the pattern, we don't look a thing like that. So why do we use the pattern when it's appropriate, but then when they show us the pattern, we don't do the pattern, you know what I mean? We only use that seemingly, unless I'm off on when we're using the pattern. I feel like we use it when it's convenient for us to establish basically what we're doing. But a lot of times we break from the pattern is what it seems. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Like pattern is for religious matters. And so that's why we get so stuck on baptism and instruments and things like that is because that's what the pattern gives us is how to run a church, how to lead a church, things like that. But as far as the practical things, the principles of day to day living, that's not what it's for. And the way I would think of it is kind of like if you're gonna make burgers at McDonald's, they, they hand you a pattern, right? Like get it out of the thing, put it on this thing, cook it for this long, put this cheese on it, this. Just do that. Don't get creative, don't get fancy, just do that. You go to culinary school, they're going to teach you some hard and fast rules, you know, like you do this, your pork needs to be cooked this much. This is how you saute this, that and the other thing. But they're teaching you that so that you can take the principles and then cook with them, like do stuff with them and you know, learn what and just work with it, right? And I think sometimes with this patternism, we get real stuck on trying to give people the McDonald's Cookbook of the Bible and then you never end up with somebody who can do anything more than that. And so that it's limiting to people when we approach it that way. And that's where the sermons. You get up and just quote 50 scriptures to prove your point. But you haven't taught anybody how to think through one scripture. So there's that side of it, and then there's another side of it that I just lost my train of thought because I talked too long for that one. So we'll come back around. [00:31:13] Speaker C: Go back to. I want you to define, like, what do you mean by do more with it? Because the person might look at it and go, well, what does more look like? Like the McDonald's cheeseburgers. Isn't that what we're set to do? Isn't that what God asks of us? What do you mean by using the principles to do more? [00:31:29] Speaker A: So that's where you can have a conversation about, like, youth group or prom or things like that. Of. It's not in the pattern. It's not in the cookbook of how. How do you handle 21st century stuff? How do you handle, you know, being a parent in the age of the smartphone, Things like that. [00:31:45] Speaker B: I. All that. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like, there's not. Man, you can flip through the whole book, it ain't in there. But the principles are. And if you've taught people how to cook. And so again, but you. You do need to have the baseline principles. There are rules that cannot be broken. Very important that we get that right. But then you build on top of that. And so the same thing with culinary school, they teach you, you don't serve pork to somebody if it's 90 degrees. You gotta have that rule. Okay. And so people are gonna think, oh, you're throwing out all the rules. No, get the basics right and then build on top of it. Build discernment and all that. I did remember the other point I was gonna make about the pattern thing. We're adamant about it being, like, the way to look at Scripture. Speak where the Bible speaks, silent, where the Bible sound. All those things we just talked about. Where's the pattern in Scripture? Where is command, example, necessary inference in Scripture? That is a principle that we've extrapolated. Very good principle, Very useful principle that we have extrapolated. If we can do it for that, we can do it for other things. [00:32:42] Speaker B: That, man, that restaurant fast food metaphor, Jack, that's. That's as good as it gets, man. That's really. I know, man. I think I've said it even before on this podcast. Like, if I could have a talent like that, that would be really nice. Just pull it out of thin air. But Yeah, I don't. Again, I would not want to follow that. Really good thought. I love that idea of just briefly I'll add on and then we can move on. But I love that idea of teaching them the principle so they can. That's the Hebrews 5 passage that you bring up, right? About having your senses exercised to be able to discern good and evil instead of like, well, let me try to find a book, chapter, verse on. It's not there. I guess I don't really have an answer like, no, you can get to the answer based on the principles that you learn from, from God's word and, and the principles not necessarily being a do this, don't do that. There are some of those in there, as you spoke to. There are some do's and there are some don'ts. Good amount of them. But there's not a do and don't on what age your kids should have a smartphone. There's not a do and a don't on should you allow your kids to date. There's not a do or a don't on on a lot of things about marriage and parenting and all these things that modern day Christians are struggling to answer and they're struggling to answer it because it's not in the pattern to that point. So that's really, really good thought. [00:33:52] Speaker A: I want to. We bring up the Hebrews 5:1 a lot and it's really important. I want to add on to this one that kind of gets overlooked is Proverbs 25:2 says it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. And you might think this is a stretch. I really think this is a. God didn't give us a checklist because it is part of his glory to give us this deep, thick, incredibly complex, but also incredibly rich book. And it's part of our glory. It's part of the joy of being a Christian is to explore it and learn more and get closer to him. And if he just handed you like a three page checklist, what fun is that? I mean, how close is that going to draw you to him? And so I think this is something that we sell ourselves short. We cheapen our Christianity when we try to shortcut it this way. [00:34:36] Speaker B: Well, the last thing Joe and I know you got a thought and then I want to get us in the next one. You think about how many people for thousands of years have been studying the Bible and the hundreds of different conclusions that they can come to. And for us just it's just so simple. I just don't see how anybody could misunderstand it. Like it's just, it's so clear. It's so like, you mean to tell me that you just think it's that simple? And again, the Bible has been around, you know, for 2000ish years and people been studying it ever since. And there are hundreds of, if not thousands of different viewpoints on hundreds of thousands of different verses. And you're trying to say it's just the simplest thing in the world. Like the arrogance behind that has, has always bothered. That's the last point I wanted to make on that. [00:35:18] Speaker C: I was just going to say the Ephesians 5:10 comes to mind trying to discern or trying to determine what is pleasing to God. Like that is to me what the pattern ought to be is what pleases God, what is the will of God in this moment when we go back to the pattern, well speak where the Bible speaks and things like that. I really do think we miss out on what is the purpose of us even studying and really understanding the richness Jack, as you're talking about it and what you guys are saying, it is ultimately to determine what is pleasing to God. And the more we're in the Word, we learn that more and more. Where I don't have to go and find book, chapter, verse for this, it's like, man, this is, it's the same as my wife. I don't have to study my wife to know what she does and does not like. It's because I've been around her, I've learned her, I've really understood her. That's the same for God is. I understand like of course God doesn't want me going to prom. I don't have to look up a chapter verse for this. Like I understand what is pleasing to God, what is the will of the Lord. And I'm looking for ways to please him. And I just don't think that's a pleasing thing for me to do do. So it takes, it removes like the weight and this is the yoke is easy, burden is light. It removes the weight off of our mind. The more we know him, the more the relationship is there to go. Yeah, I know what's pleasing to him. And that's where all of these phrases that we're getting at which will kind of get us back on track here, the Bible things by Bible names or in Bible ways, the pattern speaker of the Bible speaks. All of that seems to kind of dumb down. And what you just said will like act like it's a dumbed down principle. It's just so easy. Like these are very difficult, but the more you get into it, the easier it becomes to understand what is pleasing to God. And the way you please God may actually be different than the way I please God. And that's what James 4:17 is getting into. And what we have no tolerance for in the church of Christ. Like, yeah, we can't understand that what is a sin to you may not be a sin to me. Romans 14, you know, hey, if I'm doing something against my conscience, it's a sin. James 4:17. So there's nuance in these things. We have to be willing to get into the nuance. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was going to go ahead and move us into the next one. Joe, that was really, really good thoughts. It's funny how kind of those first three really, you know, overlapped somewhat and we're very, you know, connected there. But let's get in this next one about the steps of salvation. There might not be a more central phrase within the churches of Christ than that one right there, the steps of salvation. We're kind of pairing it with this idea of obeying the gospel. Again, an incredibly, a very foundational, cornerstone type of phrase for the church of Christ. Obeying the gospel and the steps of salvation. Yeah, I mean, obviously I believe very firmly that, you know, somebody who does not obey the gospel is not. Is somebody who is not going to end up in heaven. I think the Bible teaches that very, very clearly. And so I don't have a ton of thoughts on that. You know, it is mentioned and I'm going to look up the reference here in a second, but I believe it's second. Thessalonians 1. Yes, verse, verse 8, long sentence, but the middle of the sentence in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God, on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is biblical and it's talking about those who don't go to heaven. But the steps of salvation one to me is a little bit more interesting in the sense of like that phrase certainly is nowhere in the New Testament and yet we use it more than just about any others. And I. What I fear with this one, guys, is this is kind of my overarching thought and then I'll hand it back to y' all is. It's kind of been the theme of this episode. It's. It's very checklisty. It's very like, okay, do this. Okay, okay, I've done that. Okay. Now do this. Okay, cool. Now I've done that. Okay, now do that. And like there is not a, like sanctification doesn't really seem to be a part of it. It seems just to be a very much a. Let me, let me check my box of belief. Let me check my box of repent, which repentance should. Obviously repentance in that context is a bit more of like you're turning your life around completely. Whereas repentance after that should be kind of, you know, you shouldn't have to be repenting completely every single day or every single week. So there's a little bit of difference there. And then confessing, like I don't, I guess I don't have a huge problem with it, but I, you know, it's not a scriptural phrase. I'm curious where you guys, where your guys's thoughts. I guess my overarching one again is just that it, it feels a little bit like a check the box and you're done. And I know a lot of people add that sixth step, right of remain faithful, live faithfully. Yeah. And you know you got to have the verse references in parentheses right beside it. So I like most of them do. What are yalls thoughts on this one? [00:39:25] Speaker A: It's funny, that is one. When you google it it's pretty much us that comes up. It's funny when the, the one that came up as got questions which is a pretty useful Bible answer side they, they very much have a slant. I disagree with them on a lot of stuff but they can be useful. And it was very clear though what they wrote about the steps of salvation was to refute us was well some people say there's five and you know when baptism is great but it's a result of salvation. And so they were. So this is very much within our own. And yeah, I don't hate the phrase. I think there's better ways of understanding salvation. As you say, they're not one time steps. In fact I was writing in the book I'm working on just today on repentance and that is very misunderstood because it's kind of a thing. Okay, well I said I'm sorry. I said I'm giving up my sins or whatever. That's not repentance. That's not how the scriptures categorize it. Same thing with confession. It's not a one time. Oh yeah, yeah. You know and it's good that we do it the one time but it's like this is a life defining statement now. And so yeah, when you Mentioned that we add the sixth one on. And I feel like that is acknowledging the shortcomings of this whole thing of it all being da, da, da, da, da, da, da da. Oh, well, now there's a whole life ahead of you. But maybe a better way to do it is to think of it from a more holistic perspective. In the first place, I actually think. [00:40:47] Speaker C: It'S perfect that, like, it perfectly encapsulates some of our struggles, that we got them in the water and now what? We have five steps to get them there, and then one step after which is live faithfully, Go out and do it. Like, well, what does that mean now? It's the steps to salvation. It's not the steps to live an entire life. And I realize that, like, it is limited in its scope. It's not pretending to be anything more. On the other hand, it is fitting that that's what most of the churches. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Do is it treats it as a finish line. [00:41:14] Speaker C: Correct, correct. And I think that may be my struggle with it. On the other hand, I think it can be useful the obey the gospel. Where that one gets a little bit off is the vagueness of it of like, well, what is the gospel? Okay, so I asked Jesus into my heart. Like, that's not obeying the gospel. That's where we tie it into steps of salvation, which, yes, they're a little cookie cutter little. Like, check the boxes. On the other hand, by and large, like, it always was goofy for hearing. Like, well, we can check that one off. If I'm telling you about the steps of salvation, I don't need to tell you if the first step is to hear like, you're hearing already. So we're good to go there. On the other hand, it's helpful for young kids to kind of grasp, okay, there's faith involved, there's repenting of our sins, confessing Christ as Lord. You know, baptism is how we enter into Christ. Romans 6. So I get it. It's a little basic. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Do you guys think it has to be like, that's the other thing is that a lot of people are pretty strict about the order of things too. Like, step one, this, step two, this, step three. Like, this is where I would agree with Jack's point about kind of the more holistic. Like, no, it involves all those things. It's not a matter of. Right. Obviously, to your point, Joe, I guess you have to hear it first. But then like, okay, I believe. Okay, now, like, checking my list. Okay, what's next? Okay, now I have to repent. Like, it Needs to be a whole lot more of it, as Jack said again, and a holistic view of like all of these things are taking place. And kind of viewing it as the step by step recipe almost feels a little bit. Or actually I would say feels a lot off base. I would say. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Well, my question would be it does the repentance happen before or after baptism or with baptism? Because it feels like repent, confess and be baptized are three that take place immediately in a day. Belief is something that actually comes along. Like you get people that believe that Jesus is Lord weeks or months before they come to being baptized doesn't make them Christians. It just means they do see that Jesus is King of Kings. Now in the Christendom world, they'd be Christians because they said it, not in church, Christ. They haven't put their faith in Christ, been baptized in that way. So the repentance, confession and baptism seems to be a boom right on the spot. All three of those are kind of taken care of. Unless I really am misunderstanding, it doesn't seem like repentance and turning from sin is not something like, you don't become the better person before getting baptized. And now I'm good enough to be. So here's what seems like it's all wrapped into one. [00:43:24] Speaker B: Feels interesting about that to me. Jacqueline, I'm sure you've got some thoughts. If I go to the words of Jesus when he talks about basically before, if you want to follow me, what do you first have to do do deny yourself, take up your cross and then you follow me. I could almost make the argument then. Repentance almost needs to come near the beginning, like you need to be. Then that's where the commitment to cry or commitment to Christ comes in. And we've had the age of accountability discussion before. But, like, you need to decide, I'm not going to live like this anymore, then you follow Christ. There's no like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna kind of sort of follow behind him and see how this goes. And oh man, I have to repent. I'm gonna turn around now. Like, I could almost make an argument that Specifically, again, Matthew 16 is where you see that of the idea that you deny yourself, then take up your cross, then you follow me. That repentance needs to actually be at the front end of somebody's decision or journey to salvation is that I'm done with this life. That's why in Romans, as we've been pointing out in our Bible class on Focus plus, for anybody who subscribed Paul Starts out with the sin and pointing out the sin, like, you need to repent from this. This is going to send you to hell. And so, you know, I, I would say not to necessarily push back on you a bit, Joe, but I would say repentance almost needs to be on the front end as opposed to like the third, fourth, or kind of back end of everything. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's FocusPress. Thanks again for listening. [00:45:04] Speaker C: All right, Jack, you're sitting back. What are your thoughts on this? [00:45:07] Speaker A: I really try and present it all as faith because I think this leads to a lot of the misunderstanding and the cross wires we get in these debates about faith and baptism and faith only and things like that. I believe it is faith only. Why do you get baptized by faith? Why do you repent? Because of faith. Why do you confess Jesus? Because of faith. Why do you do anything you do the rest of your Christian life? It's faith. And so when we try and like, well, faith was over here on the belief step like that. Why. So one of the funny things that I've come across with this is somebody criticized me because I left out here one time, like, that was at the end of a sermon they've already heard. Okay, like, they're hearing right now, okay. Like, I don't need to. That's being that that box has been checked. You know, like, we don't need to go re. Cover that one like that. If you're talking to somebody about the Bible, they're here. Okay, you got. [00:46:00] Speaker C: A gasket, man. [00:46:01] Speaker A: But it just kind of shows the. Going back to the recipe, the, you know, like, here's the list. And if you just think of it of like, man, you're putting your, your, your. You're committing your life to Christ, faith, whatever you want to call it. And here's what all that's going to require from you. And then, of course, the debate is about, well, when do you become a Christian? You know, baptism. That's when you're raised from the dead. Romans 6, 3, and 4. Like, that's a whole separate debate. But the. We can all agree faith encompasses the whole thing. And I don't know why we're trying, like, pars out faith as one of the Legos that's going to build this whole thing. I mean, it's it's weird. [00:46:32] Speaker B: Great. That's a good point. [00:46:34] Speaker A: All right, so we've got a couple more before we're gonna. Well, yeah. Do we have time for one more? What do you think? [00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, keep going. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Okay. [00:46:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we can get. I think we get a couple in. [00:46:45] Speaker A: All right, here's an interesting one. I want to get to the brotherhood others times. You'll hear people of Christ, like precious faith. People of like, precious faith. Sorry. And then a New Testament Christian. And I'll throw in with this just the term Church of Christ. You'll hear people say, well, I'm church of Christ. And so kind of those terms for ourselves, the brotherhood, people of like precious faith, New Testament Christian and created Church of Christ. So you're getting four for one on this one. What do you guys think about those and how they are used? I guess I'll get it started. I don't like the idea of somebody saying, I'm church of Christ. You know, like, I'm Baptist, I'm Presbyterian, I'm Church of Christ. Like I do kind of like the traditionalist thing that says make it the lowercase C, you know, of like that. It's. It's Christ's church is what we're saying. We're not saying the name that you're going to see on the website. Yeah, the one on the sign. Yeah. And so I think there's some value in that. But as far as. As we identify ourselves, some who avoid that will go to say, the brotherhood to talk about the church. And that can seem a little strange to me. But I also see what's going on there. How do you guys feel about those? [00:47:49] Speaker B: Well, what you're talking about, Jack, with kind of I'm church, it's like a brand. Like, you know, like I'm somebody who supports Nike, I'm somebody who supports Adidas. I'm somebody who. I'm a Democrat, Republican, whatever it is. Like. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:00] Speaker B: Like it's a brand or. Exactly. Denomination. That's what I think of. And I'll try to hit as many of these kind of. Since I know we're running short on time. So like precious faith. Actually, I did not know that was a scriptural thing. [00:48:10] Speaker A: It is. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Second Peter, one verse one. Peter says it. Simon Peter, a bond, servant, apostle of Jesus Christ, are those who have obtained a like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and savior, Jesus Christ. I always thought that was. That one's kind of goofy because again, no one speaks like that except in these ways. [00:48:24] Speaker C: Peter, how Goofy. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Not. Yeah. Not Peter being goofy. Of course, when we say it in our pulpits, like, nobody. Nobody speaks like that anymore. Kind of like the guys that still say thou and thee and thy in their prayers. You know, that's. That's another one that's interesting. But so, yeah, that's the scriptural one. Don't have a ton to add there. The other stuff is very, very interesting there. The. The Brotherhood and the New Testament Christian. I tend to shy away from using the phrase New Testament Christian because it is at the expense of the Old Testament, which is very much a part of our Bible. It's not like we are. My Bible has 27 books in it and cuts out the Old Testament. And I get why people use the phrase New Testament Christian. It's to emphasize or maybe place a. Or illuminate that we are no longer under the Old Law. I think, once again, a lot of this is driven by the instrumental music debate of people that want to point out instruments are in the Old Testament. Oh, well, we're New Testament Testament Christians. That's Old Testament. And. And so I think that it lies behind a lot of it. Again, I don't think it's harmful for anybody to say New Testament Christian, but I do think it. It gives a bit of a false pretense here of like. Yeah, and we serve the God of the Old Testament as well. And the Old Testament makes up what, 70% of. Of the Bible that we read. And so I don't love that as a. As a. As a description. I would just prefer. I'm a Christian. Yeah, I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian. Not. Not a New Testament Christian, not Old Testament Christian. I'm a Christian, and I've grown up with that vernacular my entire life. So, you know, it's not going to be something that's going to be easily shaken. Of course. Not going to judge anybody for it. But that one I'm not as big a fan of. The Brotherhood is one that I. I don't have a strong opinion on necessarily. To Jack's point, I do find it a little. A little odd. [00:49:58] Speaker A: It's Scriptural as well. [00:50:00] Speaker B: It is, yeah. Joe, what thoughts do you have, Peter? [00:50:03] Speaker C: Knocking out all of us. [00:50:05] Speaker B: That's right. I didn't give a strong take on too many of those, but what thoughts would you have to add? [00:50:10] Speaker C: I think I'm against church Christ. Yeah. People go to Romans 16, 16. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:18] Speaker C: But just using it as like a. A, you know, I'm church of Christ because Jack said he's Not a big fan of it. The idea of saying I'm a Christian, it's a very loaded term in today's world. Oh, you're a Christian, so you know, you handle snakes. Oh, you're a Christian, so you are a Calvinist. Oh, you're a Christian. Like there's clarifiers. The thing that clarifies is by saying your church Christ, we can say that makes you a denomination. Let's. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Well, you would. The alternative would be to say I'm in the churches Christ. [00:50:42] Speaker C: Sure. I'm in the churches of Christ. Yeah. You know, but I understand the delineation there. I get it. On the other hand, if I remember to say I'm in the churches of Christ, I suppose that. But most of the time just gonna send church Christ. And the reason we're trying to do that is we're trying to avoid. I think by and large maybe you're not. Maybe this is. Doesn't speak for you, Jack. But I feel like a lot of times we're trying to avoid the denominational connotation. Yes. The connotation of like, well, there's again, Baptist, Presbyterians. I have a hard time avoiding that. If I go to a different look, if I travel to like Virginia, I'm going to look for what online? I'm going to look for a church of Christ because I know what a church of Christ believes. I'm not going to look up the brotherhood. I'm not going to look up the way. I'm not going to look up other. Because I'm going to go to a church, they're going to have instruments. I'm going to go, whoa, that's not right. Like the name Church of Christ means something. It means we are going to doctrinally agree on a lot of different stuff most of the time. Unless you're like weirdos, you know, way out there, liberals. Like, most of the time it's going to be down the line. So you can call it a denominational thing. It's a marker to say, yes, we agree on instruments, we agree on baptism and what makes a Christian. We agree on women's roles, we agree on order of worship and what that looks like. And those things matter. So I don't mind using that as a determinant for who's who, in my opinion. So does it get a little more into the Baptist type thing? Yeah, I suppose, like it may make us sound like that. On the other hand, I'm not fully opposed to sounding like that we are different from the Baptists. And if I just say Christian. Or if I just say loaded terms like the brotherhood, that nobody knows what that means. People of, like, precious faith, they're not going to have any idea what that means. This is an immediate way to go. This is what we believe. Here's a stamp on it. Maybe that makes it a little, I don't know, cookie cutter. But at the end of the day, at least people know where I stand on it. And it gives us a starting point to go off of from there. [00:52:30] Speaker A: I hear it used derogatorily, and I think that's one reason I even just put a little bit of a buffer to say, the churches of Christ, you know, that that might open a chance to kind of defend yourself a little more. Especially down here in the South, Tennessee, where there's one everywhere, everybody has a family member who goes, like, there's your Church of Christ. Oh, yeah, you Church of Christ. People are this way, like, okay. And again, I'm not putting that much of a, you know, distinction in their minds by saying it that way, but I, you know, I like a little bit of COVID from that. The brotherhood one. It can be helpful, actually, because, you know, a lot of times we'll use the word Christendom because people in the Church of Christ don't want it. You don't want to say, like, Christian books or, you know, I was listening to this Christian thing or whatever and mean a Presbyterian or a Baptist or whatever. And so it kind of helps to say, well, Christian, just this broader Christian world. And then you say brotherhood. It narrows it down to those within the Churches of Christ or Church of Christ as. But I. I don't know, it can feel a little, I don't know, it is exclusionary. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. But that's also where you get into the sound congregations, things like, well, who's actually in the brotherhood? And it can get a little bit arbitrary. I think it gets a little bit goofy. But, you know, all of these things are terms that arise for a reason. You know, like, they're shorthand for other things that we don't have to spend five minutes discussing what we mean with them. But I don't know some of them better than others. New Testament Christian. I'm with Will on that one. I really, really don't like that one. I think is very limiting. [00:53:59] Speaker C: Yeah, we have more. I think we could push these to the deep end. We were going to get into public sin or if you're subject to the invitation and then visitors as honored guests which I think is actually a great discussion piece that we don't have time for today. I guess we could probably go. But we're going to get into Think Fast here in a second. And it does leave a little more for the deep end. So if you're not a member of our Patreon, our Focus plus, make sure to check that [email protected] backslash+ because come join us. We're going to go off on those things as well. We will make sure to make a note. So we hit those in the deep end and I think there's going to be some good discussion there. So, fellas, any other things before we. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Respond to comments, if there are phrases we didn't hit that you want us to drop them in the comments there and we'll try and get to that one on the deep end as well. [00:54:43] Speaker C: There you go. [00:54:44] Speaker A: All right, let's get to this week's Think Fast, which is looking at President Trump has been in the Middle East. There's been a lot of negotiating. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the issue with them donating a temporary air force plane. Just headlines came out tonight about negotiations with Iran maybe going on and just things like that. But what I wanted to get at the angle of this is underneath all of this has been a maybe a tension a little bit with the US And Israel. And we haven't been going along and taking Netanyahu and their leadership into these negotiations, kind of been dealing with the people they really don't like over there in the Middle east and leaving them out of it. And there's been reporting that the relationship with the US And Israel has cooled in the Christendom Christian world, whatever you want to call it, that's not going to go over very well. There are a lot of people who still think if we move away from Israel, if we are diplomatically cold toward Israel, we are turning our backs on God. And so for this, think fast as this stuff kind of develops. Maybe that's happening, maybe it's not, but that is kind of there's rumblings about that right now. What would you say to the broader Christian world on this issue of Israel and the US And American Christians and evangelicalism and where we stand on all this kind of stuff? [00:56:03] Speaker C: I'd keep it pretty simple. Those who put their faith in Christ are God's chosen people. I think that's pretty clear. We can go back and look at history. We can go back to AD 70. We can do a lot of different deep dives on stuff to say don't reject Christ and don't come up against the church. I think those are general principles for Christianity and who God considers his chosen people. I do think it's shifted. I know that's not popular among a lot of evangelicals who are still sending money back for another temple. I don't think another temple's coming back. I think that's been done away with. I think 80, 70 was God's judgment on that. And so God takes it pretty seriously. Don't reject my son, don't reject Christ. So I look at it as. Look from a political standpoint, correct? Yeah, the church, like I'm going to stay out of any political discussion. I don't know what that looks like trade wise. I mean, I'm not a political analyst and that's not my area of expertise or anything like that. And so I don't know what that looks like going forward. An evangelical point of view. I think it's important for Christians to really put their minds at rest and say, okay, we are God's chosen people. I think we take away from that. That's a designation we should carry with joy. We should have pride in that to say and not pride in terms of puffed up pride, but in like, wow, you know, we are God's chosen people. He chose the church. That's incredible. Paul calls it that, you know, the mystery of the gentiles being included. And it just, it's an incredible gift and honor to be a part of this. And we throw. But it's not really us, you know. Well, we got to send money back to them because that's God's chosen people. I think we're missing out on a strong church theology. You know, that that's at least. What's the ecclesiology? Ecclesia. That's the one that I think we could really use in Christendom in general when we look at matters like this. What are your guys? [00:57:42] Speaker A: Well, the other interesting angle on this is, you know, some of the peace talks we've been call or the previous ones were the Abraham Accords because the Muslims claim Abraham, the Jews claim Abraham, Christians claim Abraham. And that's what a lot of Christians point to with their, the pro Israel, we must always back Israel stances. You know, Abraham's children. God will bless those who bless them. And you know, essentially if we want to have God's blessings, we have to endorse Abraham's children. Well, we've been teaching through Romans. I think that's something Bill, you can speak to. I think you taught on chapter four about Abraham's part in understanding this properly. [00:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I'll get to Romans just a second. My mind actually for this went to Galatians chapter three. And the God's chosen people thing I think is kind of a point of contention in a lot of different areas. You hear people who, you know, will really push back on the idea of America being God's chosen people. And a lot of people will say that America is God's chosen, you know, we're chosen nation. They'll kind of misquote places in scripture that we're a chosen nation to try to apply that to America. I don't think that's accurate to, to use. And then I think they'll do it as well for, for the Jews in, in today's times. And I don't think that's accurate either. Joe, I would echo everything that you said that you said there of the church is God's chosen people. First Peter, what is it 1929 about? You are a chosen generation, royal priesthood, holy nation. That's no longer talking about the Israelites, that's not talking about America either. That's talking about the church, that's talking about, you know, Christians, those who choose to put their faith in Christ. As you spoke to Joe and Galatians 3:28 is, is where my mind went to again of the idea of like it's, it's being one in Christ Jesus. That's what it is now. There is no longer, you know, Jew nor Greek. There's not a distinction anymore between this, this person who's chosen of God. And it's like you're, you're all one in Christ Jesus is the point there. And so just further evidence to the idea of, yeah, you are God's chosen if you choose to follow Christ. But Jack, to your kind of point about Romans and chapter four, I don't want to get into the whole kind of rundown of Romans, but it's interesting how chapter four in Romans, Paul does kind of seemingly sidetrack. It's not a sidetrack at all, but like he seemingly sidetracks to go and talk about Abraham when he's kind of been doing a big picture sin, sin of the Gentiles, sin of the Jews, how God is able to justify that sin. And then he zooms in seemingly on Abraham and in chapter four. And the point that, the entire point that he's making in Romans chapter chapter four is that Abraham was not righteousness, was not credited to Abraham's bank, spiritual bank account, so to speak. Because of the works that he did. It was because of his faith. It was his faith that was the reason why, you know, right. He was considered a righteous man. It was his faith in God. It was his faith that, that, that what God said was going to happen. He goes into the idea, you know, the fact that Sarah, both of them were past childbearing age and Abraham was not weak in faith. He was strengthened in faith, actually. And that's what account that was accounted in for righteousness. You see that phrase a lot. And of course, the application for us tying into what was just said a second ago by Joe is like, it is our faith in God that's going to determine once again who is the righteous. Who is the righteous nation, the holy nation, those that have faith, just like Paul pointed out. And he's using that in the book of Romans to point out, hey, you Jews who think it's about how closely you can keep the law, even back to your most prized forefather here, that being Abraham, it was on the basis of his faith as well, not just how well he kept the law. [01:01:03] Speaker C: And that's the link is the children of Abraham are those who have faith in Christ. That's the link. There is those who have faith in God. And was it Christ that said God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones? There's nothing special about that. It's do you have faith in God? Do you have faith in Christ? So the true children of Abraham, that's where he starts to shift. It is the Jews can, especially in chapter two, Romans, chapter two, kind of stand on the. Hey, we got that. Were God's chosen people. And he's saying God's chosen people were all sinners. We've all been separated from God. It was a blessing for them to have it. But God's chosen people, the true children of Abraham, are those that live by faith. And so that's where he kind of kicks off the rest of the book. To me. Yeah, once again, this has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with our understanding of scripture that I think Christendom in general, the evangelical world, has been bamboozled in a lot of ways. And we're talking out of millions and millions and millions of dollars being sent back so as to kind of help with the temple or whatever it is. God's chosen people. It just saddens me because once again, we're missing out on the true blessing of being God's chosen people when we are busy giving it to them. And then you have the certain Political commentators, you know that Judeo Christian values, like, we are opposed. You. You, you reject Christ. Like, there, there is no Judeo Christian. Christian is. We are followers of Christ. Judeo is. You don't believe Christ is the Messiah. We are opposed. Those two things do not belong together. And so to me, man, we got to be very careful as Christians when we try to bring the Judeo Christian values, like their values, according to their book, the Mishnah, Christ is Jesus or the Talmud. Sorry, not the Misha. The Talmud. Jesus is burning an excrement. Like that's their book. That's not us. So I think we got to be careful as Christians. Got to be real careful on some of those principles, some of those things. Once again, not making a political point at all as much as. And I don't know what that looks like going forward. I don't know what Trump will decide, but as Christians, stand firm that we are God's chosen people. That's a beautiful thing. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. As it relates to foreign policy, you know, you just want peace and. Yeah, absolutely. You know, that means talking to everybody, having open dialogue with everybody, and that, that would be a great thing if that's what comes about. But I'm already seeing some who are very much clutching the pearls that this shouldn't be happening because, you know, or the, the God's chosen people don't want it to happen that way or whatever. That's. That's not part of the consideration. That's, you know, kind of keep those things separate because this is how, you know, how it operates now under the Christian system. So that's our Think Fast for this week. We do have the full Think Deeper episode. If you're catching this, we'll be out on Monday as we talk about Church of Christ language. And if you're catching this in that full episode code, we're gonna wrap right there. As always, get your comments in by Wednesday night. For the deep end, leave your comments. If you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you like to contact us, we'll keep an eye out for those. But we appreciate everybody for listening. We'll talk to you guys next time.