Can Christians Use Sarcasm, Satire, and Strong Speech?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome back in to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Will Harb alongside Joe Wilkie and Jack Wilkie. If you were able to make it out to the Engage Conference last weekend. We really enjoyed. Enjoyed the whole conference. I know we met a few of the listeners who came to support the Engage Conference at the Brown Street Church of Christ down there in Texas. And so, yeah, I just wanted to shout you guys out, shout the Brown Street Church of Christ out for having us come out there along with my dad, Brad Harab, for, yeah, the Engage Conference. That. It was a great time. Great just meeting everybody. And so we appreciate the support, appreciate everybody who. Who came out. We are back at it this week. Last week's episode, bit of technical difficulties. Hopefully you were able to get, you know, hear most of it. I think there were some issues on the front end of the audio, but talked about apathy. We recorded live at the Brown Street Church of Christ at the Engage Conference. And so that was a bit of a unique sett thing for us, but we are back to normal this week. Jack, looks like you got something to [00:01:06] Speaker C: add to that real fast. I did have a few people asking me about the talks there. They were recorded. You can hear them on the Brown street church of Christ YouTube channel. Just look for the ones with the Engage Conference logo. So Brad's lessons, Joe's lessons, Will's lessons, my lessons are all up there. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Or if you want to join Focus Plus, I think we're putting. [00:01:23] Speaker C: That's right, you get, if you want to just audio to your podcast app. That's the way to go. [00:01:27] Speaker B: Obviously, YouTube is free so that you can get it there as well. All right, so, man, interesting, interesting topic today. I'm. I'm very much looking forward to discussing this. Bit of a. Just kind of unique. Essentially what we're talking about is Christian rhetoric. Like, how should we. The use of sarcasm, the use of maybe harsh words, the use of harsh talk, the. I'm going to. I'm going to hand it to Jack here in just a second. I think we had a listener who, maybe a Facebook commenter who suggested that we discuss this. Basically, the idea is, at what point is harsh wording acceptable? Not really. Obviously not talking about curse words or anything like that, but like being a little sarcastic, being a little bit, maybe even volatile, being a little bit direct and blunt. Is that ever okay? Is it? Is it not ever at any point? Okay. Do we always need to kind of, you know, make sure that we are never possibly saying it offends people? Yeah, I'm really interested to get into this for several reasons. One, we are rapidly approaching episode 250 of the Think Deeper podcast. We are rapidly approaching episode 200, Joe and I, of the Galio Men podcast. There's a lot of content, a lot of stuff out there. All of us have, you know, and, you know, as those episodes have gone on, obviously there's been things that maybe we've said in a sarcastic manner or in maybe a little bit too. Again, harsh. I guess the only word I can think of, like just kind of maybe poking fun at something. And, you know, people don't always like that. And obviously not to speak for Jack, Facebook is. Is, you know, an area where, you know, kind of the public square. Jack can kind of get into it with some people every now and then. I'm kind of one going on right now, actually, as we're recording this. And so I. That's been something that, you know, we've talked about, people have talked about. Like, to what extent is that okay and not okay? So I'll stop my kind of preamble here, Jack, and hand it to you if you want to get into kind of maybe some other stuff of what prompted the episode. But yeah, it should be pretty interesting to discuss us. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So I, again, I. I wish my. I didn't have. You guys are not on social media. My ideal life, I wouldn't have to be, but because of Focus Press, the socials, like, there is kind of a. Hey, we're putting our. The podcast out there. I'm putting the writing out there. Got engaged with people, and I had posted a just horrible statistic about abortion. And this woman, I believe, a member of the church, came in writing to the defense of mothers who get abortions. And I just basically just shut it down. Like I said, that's a joke and you should be ashamed of yourself. And I got a comment or a message saying, I used to think that that was the kind of talk, you know, I used to. I think he said, I used to bristle at that kind of thing. Now I think we need more of that. Have you guys done an episode on that? So shout out to that guy. Appreciate the message. But he does that. Raise that question. And sometimes there is that. Okay, is it too harsh? Is it too strong? Is it. Are you coming down too hard on somebody? Or if you're sarcastic, we just make a, you know, kind of a. What can look like a snide remark? Oh, yeah, sure, whatever, buddy. The immediate thing somebody will say was, well, be Christlike, okay, but does Christ likeness rule out coming down hard on somebody. Does it rule out sarcasm? That's what we're going to talk about on this episode is, is there a place for it? And if so, what is it? [00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the key. Is there a place for it? We're not saying that you need to be Mr. Bombastic Shock Jock. We're not saying you need to be Mr. Sarcasm all the time. We're going to make the case. I think there is a legitimate case to be made for. There is a time and place to use these. These things. Well, we want to represent Christ, but we also want to assume the center and that. I don't think those things are opposed to one another. I think we want to assume the center and look at it like, flat out on its face. That is a ridiculous comment that you're going to try to blame other people for a mom making the decision to kill her baby, to kill her kid. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Just defend abortion under any circumstances, Correct? [00:05:27] Speaker A: To defend abortion under any circumstance. No, that is a joke. And we're going to be flat out reject. But when you do that, it's like, whoa, hey, that's really harsh. And so we've talked about tone policing on this podcast before. We're very against tone policing where somebody comes in, brother, you. You may have said the right thing. You can't say it in that way. Like, we need to grow a thicker skin in a lot of areas. But there's also some nuance to this because people can go too far. What's the recourse when, you know, when do you apologize? When do you own that and say, I did go too far? So we want to dig into that a little bit later, too. So I just think there's a lot of different angles to this particular issue. Jack, you catch more flak than obviously Will and I do, but all of us have caught flack. I have hot takes that I've given that people look at it and they go, that's too harsh. Specifically for you on social media as you go. You've navigated this, I think, pretty well, and you've changed over the years. So I'm interested in this discussion. So as we start out, maybe let's start on the. I think there's a lot of different headings to get into, from some of the harsh words to some of the sarcasm, as you said, to, you know, proverbs we can get into. Let's start with the cautions here. You have. We want to make sure that we are our. See our. Our speech Is seasoned with salt, right? Seasoned with grace. You got a couple different cautions here. First, which is Elisha and the bald headedness. You got the kids, the second kings 2, 23, 24. The kids come in, they call him basically baldy, you know, make fun of his bald headedness. And he six bears on him. And the bears come and I mean it's terrible story. It's crazy, crazy, terrible story. But that is the power of words that these kids come in with this joke, with this, you know, mockery and they're killed by bears for it. So we want to start off on that and recognize there's a time and place. What are your guys thoughts on that as to the cautions, the time and place we can get into James 3 and setting the world on fire. Pretty much James 31 and the whole entirety of James 3 is pretty much about the tongue or a lot of it of, you know, how much damage you can do with the tongue. So get into the cautions for a second in terms of like what, what are the parameters we're working with before we dig into some of the allowables, so to speak. [00:07:35] Speaker B: So just just to kind of, I guess take it away from the, the seriousness of kind of the, the discussion with like within spiritual context. Growing up in my house, it was always interesting to meet people who you could just tell that like making fun of each other and poking fun was just not a part of their household. My household definitely was and definitely still is. My siblings, I'm the oldest of four, we give each other a hard time and we give each other a hard time often. And it's one of those things. It's like, okay, the Elisha verse that you brought up, they were making fun of him is what they were doing. You know, go up you bald head, like critic, you know, making fun of his appearance. Now obviously there's a strong difference between pure mean spirited, basically bullying, which my siblings might tell you otherwise. We did not do. I did not do to them, they did not do to me. You know, it was for the most part all in good fun versus, you know, yeah, you know, playful ribbing. And so this is one of those things where what I plan to teach my kids and is to tie in James 3 is just how much damage your tongue can do. I think that's one of the biggest aspects of teaching young children to kind of control their tongue is, you know, making sure that, you know, man, one wrong word. You think about people that speak for a living. You let one wrong word slip out. You are Forever looked at differently. You think about the. The things that you could say to a close friend or a spouse. Words that could absolutely cut them to shreds that you can't. You can't put those words back in. You can't really undo that. That tooth. The toothpaste doesn't go back in the tube there. I guess what I'm getting at here is, like, I think that's where I would start this discussion, is making sure that you do that. I do teach my kids, like, understand the power. What your tongue can do. You can go on an absolute tirade, and then you could lose your job because, you know, cursing at somebody or just absolutely losing your temper. You could also really hurt people with the way that you. With the way that you speak, especially if it's done from a mean spirit or rude place. That's kind of the. That's where I'll start. That's kind of the foundation of. Of kind of some of this. But obviously that's not always the case. So. Jack over. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah, stones may break my bones, you know, but words may never hurt me. Like, that's the stupidest thing ever. [00:10:01] Speaker B: This is not true all the time. [00:10:02] Speaker A: It's not true. Yeah, words do have the power to affect and hurt others. And we could say, well, nobody can technically hurt you. You allow yourself to be hurt. But it's like, yeah, which is true. But on the other hand, yeah, we know the damage that we can do, and we have to be aware of that. Anytime we're entering discourse, like, am I about to set the world on fire? Am I about to break down everything that I stand for? A lot of people have done that. To your point, Will, we got to be careful. But, Jack, what are your thoughts on the cautions? [00:10:27] Speaker C: Well, yeah, you're talking about words can hurt people. And what comes to mind is. I think it's Proverbs 27. I had it pulled up here somewhere. 27. 6. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. They're words that can hurt, but a friend is saying them to you because they love you. Like, there is that. That care behind them, even though they hurt. And somebody else might flatter you, but it's actually deceitful. And it's. [00:10:50] Speaker A: It's. [00:10:51] Speaker C: They're the one that's actually hurting you. And in that case, the meme comes to mind about. A girl asks her friend, you know, do I look fat? No, you're beautiful. Boy asks his friend, do I look fat? Buddy, I know five Fat people and you're four of them. Like, it's hilarious. He's given a, you know, like kind of saying, hey, yeah, you need to get it together. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Speak to the gender thing speaking. Like, I don't wanna, I guess I don't wanna move away from the cautions too fast necessarily here, but this plays a big role in that. Part of the feminization of guys across the last 20, 30 years is guy. Like, guys are afraid. The only jokes that guys make are about themselves. Self dep. Self deprecating right from the pulpit. You know, you. We've hit that before. But like, those are the only jokes guys feel comfortable making is the self deprecating ones. The I'm. I'm just too stupid. Whatever the jokes like that, you know, which, you know, poking fun at somebody's weight or whatever. If it's a close friend like Pete, we've kind of been shamed out of that type of stuff. And I think a lot of it is due to the fact that for women, that's not, you know, they are more compassionate, they're more empathetic. So that, that feels more hurtful, feels more mean. You do see that on, on fate, on social media is they do tell each other, I love the new haircut when the new haircut looks atrocious. [00:12:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:12:03] Speaker B: You see that, right? You don't see that as much with guys. And so there's. The gender thing is very interesting to me with how that breaks down. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:10] Speaker C: Because I mean, like the, the roast from one guy to another is the I love you is the I care. Like, you know, when it's mean spirited and you know, when it's, hey, it's my buddy and he might be saying something that's kind of like, ouch. But again, like, you, you take it and you give it. And there is that dynamic there or there should be. And that can be healthy. But if you draw this line of like, no, anything that hurts somebody's feelings is wrong kind of that safety ism approach to the world, then you can't tell people truths. And sometimes the best way to couch a truth is with a little bit of humor, with a little bit of. And so those guys going after Elisha, right? They're attacking somebody who's an elder. They're supposed to respect. They're attacking God. Yeah, there's a couple of things there where it's like. And there's no point to it. It's just, you know, you got a bald head. Like, there's no, there's not any care behind it, there's not any mean. It's just a jab that he can't, he can't do anything about his lack of hair. I mean, like that's. And you know, I don't think it's even wrong to call, you know, to make a bald joke. But like that guy that time, it's the, you don't get to talk to him, that's not your place kind of thing. [00:13:19] Speaker A: We talk about for parenting, having enough emotion in the bank account to cash the check of the spanking or whatever. I think it works the same way with jokes, you know, with kind of some of the mean spirited stuff. And in certain circumstances we're going to get to some at the end where it's like, you know, the woman on, on Facebook, you didn't have that cash with them, so to speak, with this woman, you still called her out. But especially when it comes to jokes among friends, they don't know Elisha, they just know that, that, you know, he's a bald guy and they're making fun of him. Yeah, we have a real problem with that. Whereas if I make fun of one of you guys, you know where it's coming from. You know that I love you, you know that I care for you. Some random guy down the street and you'll see this where he comes in, tries to be a buddy and makes a joke. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that, that is not your role. You haven't earned the right to be able to do those things. I think hierarchy plays a role in the, the men kind of giving each other jabs and whatnot, whereas women struggle with that in a lot of situations. And so it's like they're trying to put one another up. If they put each other down, then it really creates this tension here. So there is a difference. And I think that's why they are the fairer sex or the gentler sex maybe as you might say that they're not going to. But I think this is really healthy in certain circumstances for guys. [00:14:23] Speaker B: I was just going to say, just to add to the Elijah thing and we can move on is I, I think a pretty strong element of that was the prophet of the Lord, who do you guys think you are? Type of thing. And we've talked about that before with the preacher angle in that maybe lay off some of the, the preacher is the butt of the, every single joke type of thing if you're, if you're a church member. And I know preachers can do that to themselves and kind of Just that's. They think that's the role they have to fill. But there needs to be a level of respect and authority. And again, it's not a preacher episode. But that's the, the point I'm making is like, I think the parallel exists there between. Yet the 17 year old probably doesn't need to always be taking jabs at the preacher, even if it's all in fun. Right? Because that's a. He's a spiritual leader. There needs to be an authority there. I see that as the case with Elijah or Elisha. What we're talking about is more so on even playing even ground, I guess is kind of, you know, what I'm getting at, the social media discourse, the, you know, calling people out from a, you know, in a sarcastic manner. So I don't know where we want to go. [00:15:24] Speaker C: Let me jump in there. Because that's another way to divide. This is some of what we were just talking about is when there is a loving relationship, as Joe's talking about, it's not the, the rando on the street or even the person you don't know you're arguing with online or whatever. It's. It's a friend. It's whatever. Even with my kids, you know, like, sometimes teasing is the, the way of, like snapping them out of something is just kind of poking fun. Like, really, you're gonna let that get you down? And that is, again, as a more male response there. You know, their mom is more nurturing. That's good. She's not as, you know, and then moms do that from time to time. I think it's healthy. It's kind of putting them in their place of like. [00:16:01] Speaker B: My wife is very nurturing, but she also will tease my kids quite a bit. [00:16:05] Speaker C: There's a time and a place where it's like, get up, you're fine. You know, like, you know, kind of giving them the business about it a little bit. And so there is the loving relationship, teasing kind of thing. And I think that's good to have. But then there is the I. We're not saying that you can only have sarcasm or satire or whatever when. Because like, you know, when you see those, the celebrity roasts or whatever, and don't watch those because they're. They're pretty raunchy. But at the end it's always. And man, he's, you know, we just made fun of him for 10 minutes, but he's such a great guy and he's had a great career and we all respect him or whatever that's not always what we're talking about. And some of what we're going to talk about here is Jesus versus the Pharisees. It does not end that way of Jesus going, but you know these guys, they're fine. Like, that's not how that works. And so I think there is very much a place for these tactics with people that you are viewing as an enemy that you are. And, and that doesn't mean you don't love your enemy. Jesus loved his enemies and was pretty harsh with some people. [00:17:07] Speaker B: Only thing I'll say last thing, before we get to some of these, I think we need to get into some of Jesus examples of sarcasm. Because like you said, Jack, I mean, this is some of the stuff we're hitting around is the stuff that maybe kind of is in good fun or playful jest. That's not what we're talking about with Jesus and the Pharisees. As you just. And Jack, your, your Facebook discourse. Not to keep using that as an example, but it's just kind of the most recent thing was certainly not done in playful fun or in jest. Like, that was a very legitimate. And so I think that's what's going to make for the mortuary discussion. But the only thing that I want that I would say as I so much of my mind goes, you know, my framework for a lot of this is how I want to raise my kids. Please don't raise your kids to take everything so personally. [00:17:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Please don't raise your kids to take every. It is true. Words can absolutely hurt. Specifically targeted. Again, bullying and like saying mean thing. I know that. I know that happens. Obviously it happens with young people. I'm with older people. Like, it happens. I don't like to use the word snowflake as a pejorative. There are a lot of people who. True, like, you just gotta get over yourself, man. You, you just gotta not. Not take it so personally this time. I mean, half the time it's stuff that somebody says. It's like, I'm gonna take offense to it, even though I don't even know if they were talking about me. I, like, people just gotta chill. So I know that's not really what we're talking about here, but that I, I would be, I, I would feel remiss if I didn't bring that up of like, man, you're raising kids. Or you, if you yourself are somebody who's always taking everything personally and taking offense to every single thing that somebody else says, you're going to have a problem kind of with this. This topic, if that makes sense. [00:18:41] Speaker C: Thick skin, you got to evaluate it. Yeah. The identity. Like you can step back from it and go all right, was there any truth in that I needed to pull out of it or is it just you're going to whine about it? And I wanted to throw in Joe before you get back here. Proverbs 26, 4 and 5. Do not answer a fool according to his folly or else. Or you will be like him also answer a fool as his folly deserves that he not be wise in his own eyes. That's a lot of what we're talking about. So it says don't answer him, but answer him. And people get confused over that. What is it saying? It's saying there's a right way to answer a foolish person and it's the way that will expose their folly. As it says that he not be wise in his own eyes. Essentially you're going to cut him down a little bit. You're going to bring him down to size. You're not going to take it as a good faith argument and go, well no, actually if I present this data to you, do give him the answer it deserves. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's get into the discussion on sarcasm, mockery, satire. Right. And the first thing that comes to mind when you think of the word satire, I feel like is Babylon be. In this day and age. [00:19:45] Speaker B: It is kind of a corner on it. [00:19:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Currently, Especially for Christian satire. What are your guys's thoughts on that? Is there a. Some Christians get very touchy about it. Like you just can't joke about these things. But they're also. We're also seeing. I was thinking about this earlier when you were talking about a guy making fun of himself. Nate Bargazzi exploded. He's huge in. In the comedy realm of course. And all his jokes are basically making fun of himself, always coming back on himself. It's a very safe form of comedy. But we're also starting to see the Matt rifes and guys like that or whatever his name is. That cuts people down to the. To the core. I mean just right on the spot and just right. And he's very quick witted and you're seeing that come back around where there's a lot of mockery, there's a lot of satire, there's a lot of making fun of things. Commentary and culture or cultural commentary. That's very quick witted but also pretty harsh. What are your guys thoughts on is there a space for Babylon be I would argue yes. I think it's important. But I'm curious your guys thoughts, even just memes, right? [00:20:46] Speaker C: Like memes are a way that you can really mock a position, mock a thing that somebody's saying and just kind of like that how effective it's been, like how much like I think it's won elections and stuff like that based off of good memes. And it's not even making an argument. It's just, hey, here's the stupidity of what this other person's saying. Hey folks, you've probably heard us talk about Focus plus and the Deep End. If you're wondering what that is, Focus plus is our subscription service available through Patreon. Every week, members get all kinds of Christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and Revelation. We also have the Deep End, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for Think Deeper listeners, where you can submit your comments on an episode and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focus or go to focuspress.org/. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I I think you got we've got it down on the outline, but when I think of this mockery thing, Elijah on Mount Carmel is truly some of the funniest content in the entire Bible. The, you know, oh, where's your God? He must be asleep. Oh, he's using the restroom, going on vacation. I don't remember the specific ones he used, but like, it's hilarious. He was straight mocking them. How many people in Church of Christ discourse would look at Elijah and go, oh man, I don't know that that's [00:22:24] Speaker A: Christ like, or hurting his witness. [00:22:26] Speaker B: He sure, yeah, that's right. It's not the way of the cross or whatever people say. Clearly there was a place for it. Clearly that's a prophet of God who they are. He has taken a victory lap about the fact that his God is far more powerful than any demon or whatever it is that they worshiped. And yeah, he's mocking them for it. And guess what? They deserve to be mocked. And so I am a big believer that we do need to bring back a level of shaming people on certain things. We need to bring back. I do think mocking to some extent. Yes. If you are going to hold I think the people who support who think that Lindsey Clancy the way that she strangled her children, that she should basically walk free. I think they should be mocked, personally. I absolutely think that they should be mocked. You know, there's. I'm trying to think of other examples. Like there's a lot of things that you could. That I, I think we need to bring back mockery for. So that's my quick take is that. Yes, I, you know, Babylon B aside, like, Babylon B is one of those things that they're. It's hilarious. Like they'll poke fun. The one that made me think of Jack was forward to release pumpkin spice flavored F150 type of thing. There's just, they just. I don't know how they think of this stuff. Like, it's just hilarious. But yeah, as far as, like the mocking, horrible positions, mocking, just ridiculous takes. There was one Joe or Jack, I think I saw this on, on X. And then you commented on it later on in the day when we were in Texas together. The one where it's like, man, a lot of good Christians I know wear two piece bathing suits, drink alcohol, you know, basically go to Disney World and all this stuff. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Stupid. [00:24:02] Speaker B: That deserves to be mocked. Like, whoever posted that, like, you, you deserve to be mocked. And, and so that's. Again, I'm kind of rambling. That's my take, is that, yes, stuff needs to be mocked still. [00:24:11] Speaker C: That's an answer. A fool is as folly dessert. You don't engage that as a good fit. Well, actually, let's go down the list. You're like, no, no. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Right? Let's have discussion. No. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah, we need to bring back shame into the culture. [00:24:23] Speaker C: Have you seen that one? Normalize this, normalize that. How about you feel shame for once? [00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I have seen that one. [00:24:30] Speaker C: Oh, it's great. Because people are always. We need to normalize. And then it's some ridiculous things like, no, you need to feel shame about that. You should be ashamed. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's the. Our culture's not better off because we try to remove shame from everything. There are certain times. And again, as a therapist, I talk about the difference between guilt and shame, and that's. If somebody's trying to get out of this, we need to be shaming the LGBTQ movement in terms of, like, you guys are walking down the street naked in front of a bunch of kids. You should be shame. You should be put in prison or shot, but you should be shamed for that. That is a disgust, disgusting, vile act. And to treat that as though there's some Low. It's kind of like if a, you know, a five year old was trying to give you advice on your 401k, be like, thanks, buddy. You know, you don't really belong here. [00:25:13] Speaker B: You sit this one out. [00:25:14] Speaker C: Right? [00:25:15] Speaker A: Correct. You like. And there's a level of no, but I'm right. Like, at some point you go, shut up, sit down. You're not the guy for this. Like, enough. Dad's. Dad's home. Somebody's got to be home. To say, this is insane. When we remove shame, it almost like cuts everybody off at the knees. And we're all kind of on the same playing field. Like, we're objectively not okay. You guys are dying of AIDS at 40 and you are, you know, turning into how many pedophiles that are affecting the kids, affecting the culture we have. The culture has gone off a cliff based off of all these things. And what would have helped public shaming of these things when they were afraid to come out of their bedroom. No. Hey, what a man does in the privacy of his own home. No, you deserve to be shamed for that too. If you're going to do shameful acts, indecent things. I get where addiction comes from. I understand all of these things, but at the end of the day, it needs to be one of those things where, yes, this is mocked, this is brought in the public square, and this is disgusting and vile and we're not putting up with it as a culture. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Well, so I get. One of the things that we absolutely has to come up in this discussion is that Jesus very much used sarcasm. Jesus very much used strong words, you know, and yet Jesus never violated. Obviously it wasn't written yet, but Jesus never violated James 3. So what that tells us is those two things can very much coexist. I love John, you've got on the outline, Jack, great job on this outline. The John 10:1 where, you know, they. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. In verse 32, Jesus answered them, many good works I have shown you from my Father. For which of these works do you stone me? Like, I don't know, obviously, if they're about to stone him. That probably. He was probably not laughing when he said that. But like, that's sarcasm. Like that's. [00:26:54] Speaker C: And you have to read that with the requisite sarcasm of like, all right, guys, so which one you stoning me for, right? Was it when I healed the guy, you know, when I raised the guy from the dead? Which one of the. Like, you can just sense the sarcasm dripping off of It. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah. How many times does Paul do this, too? Go ahead. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, he's got multiple. Jesus is on this list, actually, a lot, when you think about. It's not just in the. The sarcasm and the mockery, but, you know, Matthew 12. Have you not read. When he just. He's kind of poking fun at them, like, yes, they've read this. Have you not read this? There's that. It's ribbing them a little bit for what they are. [00:27:28] Speaker C: I guess you guys must have missed that one. Like, that's what he's saying. [00:27:32] Speaker A: Exactly. When he calls him out, you know, when Jesus is very harsh, he calls [00:27:36] Speaker B: him brood of vipers. Like that. That was not a small insult back then, right? [00:27:41] Speaker A: Well, yeah. John the Baptist, you brood of vipers. Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come, Right? Like, there's. From both sides. John the Baptist, Jesus. [00:27:47] Speaker C: They're called Shout out to my youth minister when I was a teenager. He put it in the. The trivia thing one week. Who called the Pharisees a brood of vipers. I said, Jesus. And he marked it wrong. He said, no, it was John. It was both of them. So, yeah, it's John in Matthew 3. 7. Jesus Mat. Jesus did a couple times. 12, 34, 23, 33. So I still want my. My points for that one. Nathan, if you're listening. He's not listening. But. But yeah, he called him a brood of vipers. He called Herod a fox. Like, these are. There's sarcasm. There's a little bit of mockery in these things. There's something where it's. There's humor to it, number one. Like that. It's using the humor very strategically and kind of disarm. But also, like, do you think they came out of that, you know, laughing it off? No, they came out of it furious. They came out of it going, we got to kill that guy. But it was still okay for him to do it. Well, why? Because everybody else saw the absurdity of their position. That was the point he was getting at. Even if they themselves were coming away with it with. With their feelings hurt, he still did it. [00:28:55] Speaker A: Well, there's also that Galatians 5:12, and I was pulling that up, where Paul uses the term, basically, wish you'd mutilate yourself. He says, I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. [00:29:06] Speaker C: Like in the context of a talk about circumcision. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Yes, about circumcision. Like that is pretty rough when you're talking about the genitals you're talking about what circumcision does and wish that those who are troubling you would just mutilate themselves. [00:29:22] Speaker C: When he said earlier, they have been severed from Christ. Like the puns he's throwing in there, man, like, correct. This is. It's funny, but it's also like, he's not holding back, all right? [00:29:33] Speaker A: Galatians is deadly serious. You know, it is the only letter where he doesn't give a nice greeting to him and a little rah rah speech at the beginning because he's just ticked. But he's also very upset at the guys that are doing this. And he's using these play on words to make a very strong point, kind of mocking them. I wish they'd go ahead and just mutilate themselves. They think that circumcision is so important to the Greek, you know, and putting this on them just go, cut it all off. Is basically what he's saying. Like, there's. Yes, there's sarcasm to it. So if the apostle Paul, you know, Jesus, we're seeing those things. There's a time and place for it. What is that time and place? Jack, you just alluded to this. I want you guys to speak to that real fast. Like if we have listeners going, okay, well, when's a good time to use it? We're not just using this on the willy nilly all day, every day because then you just become the sarcasm guy and nobody takes you seriously. There are strategic moments that Jesus, that Paul, that Elijah is using these things. What constitutes a strategic moment in this day and age for sarcasm? [00:30:29] Speaker B: So to me, one of the things that makes sarcasm so funny is that typically you are poking fun at something obvious, right? Like the, you know, people say duh or, or like, like the. Oh. Oh, really? That's a, you know, the, the Sherlock thing that people say. Like, oh, really, Sherlock? I just use different words. It's. [00:30:49] Speaker A: It. [00:30:49] Speaker B: The point is, like, it's obvious here and you're missing it, right? So to me, that's the first thing that comes to mind, is that, yes to obviously to mock a position, like to call something out, I think absolutely, you can use it, but it's to point out something obvious. Like there are, there are the truths in today's culture. The truths of the Bible are kind of. That should be obvious, are kind of getting clouded. What's a man? What's a woman? How about that? I don't know. You shouldn't strangle your kids. Like, that one's pretty obvious. I feel like and yet these obvious truths are getting like, again, kind of clouded. They're kind of. It's not black and white, it's turning gray. And so again, that's, to me, where sarcasm shines. And you know, kind of the. The mockery or whatever word we're using, that's where that shines is it kind of restores your attention. Like, oh, yeah, that is kind of obvious, right? You know, through the, through the means or through the method of sarcasm. Like, oh, this is the obvious answer. We just. So that's the first thing that comes to mind is like, again, we just. With what our society has done to things that are obviously true, sometimes it takes the sarcasm, the memes, is a good point you brought up earlier to re center people and go, oh, yeah, that is kind of stupid, isn't it? So that's the first thing that comes to mind as far as, like, what. You know when to use. Jack, what do you think? [00:32:01] Speaker C: One of my favorite lines of argumentation is the reductio ad absurdum is to take it everything to its absurd end. Like, okay, yeah, if we all believe this, this is how ridiculous it would get. Here's the absurdity of if what you say is true. That's what these memes, and that's what the satire is doing. Like the Lindsay Clancy thing, there were a ton of memes about it. Not because it's funny that a woman killed her kids. It's not that mental health is funny or any of these things. Pointing the absurdity of like, okay, if. If this position that you hold, you know, okay, again, it's. It's harsh, it's strong. You know, maybe Hitler just had postpartum depression was one that was going around. And it's like, it just, it shows you the absurdity of the position of like, oh, I guess that just excuses anything, right? [00:32:49] Speaker B: That's the only way to showing you the absurdity. [00:32:51] Speaker C: Right? And so that is an argument that is literally a line of argumentation is taking something and reducing it to its most absurd, distilling it all the way down to the principles and saying, yeah, those principles stink. And you can do that with humor. Like, you're saying will of, like, you can reveal, you can expose, hey, this is what you're actually saying here. And it's a stupid thing to say. And going back to the shame. Like, yeah, you should feel dumb for saying that. And I. Why people? Why that? And just saying you should feel dumb for saying that. And people are gonna say, oh, what about that doesn't sound nice. Well, number one, answer a fool as his folly deserves. It's calling him a fool in the verse there, and it's saying his take is folly. That's gonna happen sometimes. But the other part of it is like, this is a way, if you can't help the person themselves, you can help the people watching. That's one of the only benefits to the stupid Facebook discussions is other people are seeing these things and, and they're, they are processing through the discussion. And when you can make them laugh, when you can show, yeah, man, this is really ridiculous. That's where they get to. I will say counterpoint before Joe, you make some points here. The Elijah thing, poking fun at baal and oh, maybe he's in the bathroom, maybe he's on vacation. He's not glorifying himself. And that's an important distinction. This stuff is not a look at me. It's not a boasting. It's not me dunking on you for the greatness of me. It's me pointing people to the truth for God's sake. And for God's sake, Right, because we care about the truth because of God. And so Elijah wasn't. It wasn't me against Ahab, it was God against baal. And that's a stupid proposition. So we're going to point you to the stupidity of that proposition. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a, that's a great, very neat point. The Proverbs talks a ton about fools. You know, as you said, answer fool according to his folly. There's a bazillion and one verses in Proverbs about fools and what that looks like. That assumes you have to be able to call somebody a fool at some point. That's awful mean. How do you know? Maybe they just don't know. Maybe they're ignorant. Maybe you know you're going to hurt your witness calling them a fool. Like, you got to be able to call things out. I think it's especially important with kids. As he's talking to his son, hey, that guy. And maybe this is a wrong way of going about it, but I've absolutely done this with my kids. That's stupid what that guy did. There are times and places where I want them to associate. That's idiotic. That is awful. I'm not going to do those things. And it gets shamed to some degree. And I think that is okay to use use in those instances. I'm not calling my kid stupid. At the end of the day, I'm not really calling that kid stupid. What he was doing was idiotic. And I think it's okay to make those connections. So the fool point comes in as far as it goes with the satire. I think we're making the case there is a time and place where you can use. Oh, assuming the center was what I was going to say. Sorry, I mentioned that a couple times. And this is what you guys are speaking of. It's really important that you assume the center. J.D. vance. I think we mentioned that on this podcast. J.D. vance does this very well where he just assumes that, yes, mine is the normative approach when we talk about Christianity. You can mock other Christians. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Basically, you're the crazy one, not me. [00:35:48] Speaker A: Correct. Instead of, well, we really need to come in as though LGBTQ is normative. That should be in the center. In no world is that in the center, a heterosexual couple and God's plan for sexuality and gender and those things, that is at the core. Everything else is wild. That's way out there. And when we call it that and we use satire and we use, you know, some mockery from time to time to show the absurdity. Jack, to your point, that assumes we are center. We as Christians have to start assuming the center and not treating everything as equal. Evolution, creationism, it's all equal. I've started assuming the center on that and making fun of people who believe in evolution. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You can't possibly think that that's. You actually think that's real and there's a little laughing to it. It ticks them off. Well, what, you think that you're, you know, better than the scientists? Like, yeah. I mean, I think they're stupid, personally. I think they are. Are rejecting basic common sense. You assume the center and everything else is able to. So can you get a little carried away? Sure. But if you're standing. Goes back to your point, Jack. If you're standing on Scripture, if you're standing on God and you're pulling people back to the reality that God has created for us. Not Joe's reality, God's reality. And if I'm in alignment with that, then, yes, we can start calling out these other worldviews, as that is a lesser worldview. And some of these are so far off of reality, they do deserve to be mocked. And that way people don't start inching out and getting closer and closer and closer. When Christians stop mocking these things and stop treating these things or started treating. Treating these things as though they were legitimate, that's where we lose all our Kids. As the kids start to go closer and closer and closer to the craziness and further from the actual reality that God is. Sorry. I'll get out my soapbox. [00:37:24] Speaker B: No, that's really good. [00:37:28] Speaker C: Hey, folks. Jack here and I wanted to tell you about some restoration movement resources from our new sponsor. If you're interested in the history of the church, Cobb Publishing has got what you need. From general overviews like FW Maddox's Eternal the History of the Church of Christ to biographies of Restoration movement leaders like Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott Raccoon, John Smith and several others, you will be able to satisfy your church history [email protected] shop. From classics like their bicentennial edition of Alexander Campbell's the Christian Baptist, the two volume complete Alabama Restoration Journal collection, or brand new books like out of the Women of the Restoration Movement, you will find the perfect gift for the restoration movement enthusiasts on your gift list. Find reliable histories of the church@cobb publishing.com shop. That's Cobb c o b b publishing.com shop. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Jack, you got a list on here and maybe we should probably breeze through them here quickly with. With kind of where we are on our timing. We talked about sarcasm, we talked about mockery. What about some of the harsh words, you know, that. That obviously Jesus uses sometimes. Paul's used. We talked about kind of brood of vipers already. You want to just kind of hit these kind of quick style and then we can kind of talk about when does. When is that necessary? Like, once again, what you did with that particular person on Facebook, defending abortion is you. I wouldn't really call it mockery. I would call it. [00:38:54] Speaker C: It wasn't. I wouldn't say it was harsh. It was just very direct. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I wouldn't say it's harsh either. Sorry. I just meant, like, it's a little bit different than the mockery thing. Right. From what I saw. So, yeah, get into some of those that you get on the list. [00:39:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, Jesus calls a woman a dog, famously. Right. Basically saying, you're not in line for the kind of work that I'm doing. And of course, she kind of negotiates with him and impresses him. He's like, all right, I'll throw you the scraps and heals her kid. And that's Great. Mark, chapter seven. The prime example is Matthew 23, the Woes on the Pharisees. And I mean, how can you read that chapter as anything but scorched earth? I mean, just scathing. Just leaves nothing left. Calls him whitewashed tombs. Says you're traveling all over to make proselytes. And you're making them twice the son of hell as yourself. That straining gnats and swallowing camels. And I mean, just you're washing the outside of the cup and leaving the inside unclean. And Jerusalem, you kill the prophet. I mean, like there are no punches pulled in Matthew chapter 23. Jesus absolutely destroys them. And that's why they come back and kill him. Right? Is because of he's exposing the problems with them. We're told in two Timothy what the Scriptures are given for. And then immediately after, where Timothy's told to preach the word, reprove, rebuke and exhort. That rebuke part is what Jesus is doing here. And reprove is, hey, you need to do better. Let's fix this. Rebuke is, you are wrong and it's got to change. And Jesus did that. And Paul does that to Peter, right? Says, I oppose him to his face because he stood condemned. Other times, Paul, I mean, like some of the letters, some of the stuff to the Corinthians, like, well, what we talked about, Galatians, Paul calls them foolish Galatians. I mean, just again, we're reading this in text, but there is almost a raised voice tone, a passionate a. This is not Paul going, oh, you foolish Galatians who bewitched you guys, man. No, there's very much. You can tell a passion behind it. And we kind of think that passion in itself is a sin. I've been there. People go, I can't believe you did that. You can't believe I took the body and blood of Jesus Christ seriously before we handed it out on a Sunday morning. You can't believe that. Things like that. If you don't have a time and a place for somebody to. And of course, Jesus turning tables is the one that always comes to mind, right? That was not Mr. Rogers. Jesus. Right. And that's something people don't even know what to do with it, right? Of Jesus going in and doing that. And it wasn't just that he threw the tables over. It was the condemnations that he threw on top of that. And that leads right into Matthew 23. And this whole section is him. And the parables that he gives over the fig tree, that it shrivels up. All of this is him going, you guys are toast. You got like, you've got a big problem. And that's Christ like speech. Because Christ did it. [00:42:03] Speaker B: How do we. [00:42:03] Speaker A: But he also wasn't flipping tables. He wasn't flipping tables in every chapter. You know, there were times. It was a time and place. If you're harsh all the time, you see these guys that can justify harshness, like, well, I'm just being tough on them, you know? [00:42:16] Speaker C: Well, guys. I mean, there's some of these guys on Twitter, the new right kind of guys, where it's like, man, take a day off. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It's always something. There's always direct speech. It's like, you know, there's times where Jesus is very, very thoughtful, very kind, and there's times where he's not. And part of the wisdom of being a good Christian, just good Christian, I suppose, man or woman, is knowing the time and place to be a little more direct, to be. To rebuke times, to exhort times, to just encourage one another. You have to be able to read the room. And Jesus read it obviously perfectly in who he chose to address. That's also another piece to this, though, is who's getting addressed in each one of these and why it's getting addressed. The harshness. Jesus is not near as harsh. He is to the woman to some degree with the dog comment. He's not near as harsh to the people that are being. It's the chicks, right? He wants to gather them like the chicks, because these people are lost. They have no shepherd. Nobody's leading these people in Jerusalem, and his heart's breaking for them. And then he turns around and it's woes to the Pharisees because he realizes the harshness needs to be directed at the right person. When you're harsh across the board, this is why. And Jack's done a good job of this. I think early on in our podcasting, we had a. I think we can be really harsh. I think we can be really harsh to the average person, too. Of like, why aren't we getting it together? Why aren't you doing more in church? XYZ as over time, we've kind of shifted to being a little more harsh on the leaders, on the elders, on the preachers. We have a lot of. A lot of them that don't like us all that much, and that's unfortunate because we're not. We really don't want to have, like, a negative relationship with them, but we do. You hold them to a higher standard, call them out a little bit more. Because I think it's the same as Jesus with the Pharisees. Like, they're the ones that are leading people astray. The doctrines of this kind of lame, lame Jesus that doesn't do anything, that's really dangerous and that's hurting people. And if somebody believes that as a sheep in the congregation, does the harshness go toward the sheep that believe it or toward the shepherd that's leading them astray? And so I think that's a necessary part of the harsh discussion as to who are you most harsh with and when is the right time for that, that. Sorry, Will, you had thoughts? [00:44:17] Speaker B: No, it's okay. I, I, I kind of lost where I was going with it. I wanted to ask because what people are going to say is you guys are basically putting yourself in the shoes of Jesus here. Like, you know, oh, so basically you're Jesus, or, oh, you're basically Paul, or, oh, you're basically Elijah. And I what? And I remember I was going to ask, Sorry. So I don't, we don't have to go back. I was going to ask how we got here. How do we get to a place where every, you know, like any kind of mockery or any kind of, you know, slightly harsh word is immediately chastised. Oh, man. Shouldn't have said that. It's like, or, you know, I don't like it, what it is. I don't like the way you said that. It's like, well, was it correct? Like, was it right? But again, that's kind of different. Again, kind of the, the you're not Jesus, you're not Paul kind of accusations. What we are doing, though, is imitating both of those guys. What we are doing is, you know, and when I say we, like, this goes for anybody there. We're not the only three people that are, you know, kind of direct sometimes with people. And we're going to get to here at the end, like, when does it go too far? When should you apologize? When is there, you know, when is there a time where you say, you know what? That one was too far. It's happened probably for all three of us. But the once again, like, just because Jesus and Paul don't exist today doesn't mean that. Well, I guess nobody then can, can have any, you know, can take positions and take stances and use tones like, like, I certainly don't think that's the case. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? [00:45:45] Speaker C: Well, yeah, because it's like you brought up imitating them. We try to imitate them in every way except that one. That one's off limits. Only they get to do that. Only Jesus gets to have the kind of righteous anger to flip tables. Only Jesus gets to say the kind of things they said to make the distinctions that he made. Things like that that's just not the case. And you have to realize, like, when you ask, that's the hard part. When somebody says Christ, like, do you mean actual Jesus or do you mean the character of Jesus? You've made Mr. Rogers Jesus, right? Yeah. And so that Mr. Rogers Jesus isn't Christlike, because Mr. Rogers Jesus never would have turned a table, never would have called somebody a brood of vipers. Your Jesus has to be able to do all of those things. Now, as you guys are saying, there are limits to that. If somebody's going around and it's just all abrasive all the time. And that's one of the reasons. And not to. Joe brought up kind of talking about ourselves and our approach. There's a reason I took a break from some of that stuff and wrote a book on Christian assurance of salvation. I kind of wanted to get out there, like, hey, yes, it's also gospel, grace, love, all those things, too. We are pro all those things. And I want you to know that because we're going to be pretty hard on some of the other stuff. What you're saying earlier, Joe, the bank account. I want to share the love of Christ with you, but I also, that sometimes that's going to mean saying something that sounds kind of hard, but it needs to be said. And that's the love of Christ, too. But like, hey, it's the whole picture here and not just picking and choosing or not. I remember dad one time said, you can't just push the spicy part of the burrito all the time. Like, that's a good way of putting it. Right. And so, yeah, having the balance like you're saying is good, but. And this goes a little with what you were saying, Will, about, like, what caused this. This is really frustrating to me where somebody comes in and slams down a bad idea with the kind of answer that it needs and everybody gets really mad about it. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't believe you. I can't. Okay. As you asked earlier, was it right? Was it what the moment needed? Because interestingly, when Paul talks about the way we talk, let no unwholesome word that'll give grace to those who hear. But it also says good for edification according to the need of the moment. As Paul himself shows sometimes the need of the moment is calling people foolish. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker C: That's what the moment. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Calling Peter out to his face. [00:48:06] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Is. Is the opposition. Is the. The stomp in the foot and saying, this is how it's going to be. That's what's needed Sometimes. [00:48:14] Speaker B: So. So we're getting close on time here. We've got some other things that I think would be good to get into. Maybe we'll save them for the deep end here of, like, where's the line between confidence and arrogance? We've talked about that on the Golly Men podcast, actually, before, I think, episode seven. I don't know why I remember that. It was really early on, Joe, when we launched that. But it does very much. It does very much come into this discussion as well. Like, when. When does you go from being confident about a position that you have to. Okay, you're just kind of being cocky as well as, like, control. Strong, uncontrolled, strong words. I don't want us to. To move on without going to that last question. Like, when is it too far? When should you, as a Christian person, specifically Christian man in this context, apologize and say, you know what? You know, again, that. That was too far. That's. That's on me, essentially. Any thoughts on that from you guys? I know I just asked the last question, so I apologize. If you want me to go first, I can. But, like, this is a tough one, [00:49:08] Speaker A: I think, when it not offends the person, when it hurts the person needlessly, and you didn't draw them back to the main point, and that's. That would be like with Elijah. What is the main point of him mocking them? My God's better. Oh, we're so hurt. How could you mock. No, my God is better. That's the point he's coming back to. And it's a pretty strong premise. When Paul's calling people out. We didn't even mention the Titus 1:12:1. Excuse me. With the cretins. I always think of. Mike was asking you when I cretin. First of all, it's cretin. Sorry. Shout Out Monsters. [00:49:42] Speaker B: What a reference. What a reference. [00:49:43] Speaker A: I love it. I love that one. I never got that as a kid, and now I do, but I had it pulled up. Cretins are always liars. Evil, evil beasts. Lazy gluttons. This testimony is true. Absolutely kills them, you know, and he says that, and it's like, like. But what is the premise he's coming back to? He's trying to help Titus understand the people he's working with and can back up the premise, because the premise is. Is deep enough and it is grounded enough that that's what's going to draw the tension back. I think about the times where I've been very harsh, where I've said some things that I have gone too far. I've made jokes that I shouldn't have made in every situation. It was me trying to get up on my high horse. Me trying to, you know, be somebody that I shouldn't have been to. Slightly four point for yourself. Yeah, correct for myself. That is the key. I lost the point of the argument along the way, Jack, with you in this abortion comment, that wasn't about you standing as Mr. You know, Mr. Big Shot. That was you going, that is a ridiculous argument. And I need you to step back and consider what you just said. What's wrong with you? Like it served a much greater point than Jack's right. Doesn't matter. It's not about you being right. It's about what is right and her being completely off of reality. So that to me is the key when it comes to apologies. You have to have a good sense of what is right. And if I'm right and I think there's a big difference and you being right, sometimes that is aligned with what is right, sometimes it's just not. And it becomes a self serving thing along the way. [00:51:09] Speaker C: And being right doesn't mean you get to say it however. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Right. Right. [00:51:14] Speaker B: My answer was just kind of what I added onto Joe's thing there about are you trying to score a point kind of for yourself like, oh, look how smart I am or you know, making a, a public spectacle. And you know, I've been guilty of this before too, like the, you know, disputes before on social media where it's like, listen, I know I'm right. And so I'm going to kind of highlight the idiocy of this, of this person I'm arguing with. Not all, as we, as we discussed, not always the wrong thing to do, but obviously it could be taken too far. And I think generally it is when you're doing it kind of as a, in a, from a selfish point, like I want people to see how smart I am. I want people to, you know, acknowledge again how quick, witty, like whatever it is, it can take on a number of forms. But Jack pretty much said this earlier and we're just kind of highlighting it here, is that Elijah did his for God. It was not about man. Let me enjoy this moment. It was, you know, man, God is great. And I want all these people to recognize that he is great and that your God is not. So that would kind of be, you know, my answer. Jack, curious what you think with kind of again, you're the most active usually on social media and stuff like that. [00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:21] Speaker C: One other thing I'll add is like, just because you chose it doesn't make it right. But if you didn't choose it, like, if it just kind of flew out of your mouth or you typed it out and then just sent it, that's not usually a good thing. Like, you need to be in control of what's coming out of your mouth. And sometimes you're in control and you actively choose it. And it was still a bad thing to say. But more often than not, the things you shouldn't have said are the things that you just fired off before you thought about it. And so I think that's one of the important ones, is making sure it is what you mean to say. And sometimes what you mean to say is gonna. Might hurt some feelings. Hurt feelings. We live in this world where that, like, that makes you win. No, not necessarily. It's. Was it the right thing? Was it said the correct way? And the correct way doesn't always mean just soft as could be. No, sometimes the correct way is stomping the foot and saying, that's enough. You know, sometimes it's mockery. It can be all of these things, but you just. You have to be careful with them. And again, and as you said earlier, Joe, if you're all one thing all the time, whether it's all softness or it's all Mr. You know, tearing everybody apart, you probably need to take a step back. There's room for both of those things. So a lot of interesting stuff. I'm very interested to hear the comments on this one. What do you guys think is too much when it's time to apologize? All of those things. Before we get out of here, let's get to a. Think fast on a very interesting development in the music world. So Ed Sheeran, musical superstar, all kinds of major hit songs, was touring where McLemore, a one hit wonder basically from like 15 years ago, was the opening act. Two. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, you're right. Two hits. [00:54:00] Speaker B: He did have two hits. [00:54:01] Speaker C: It was 15 years ago. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Pretty big in 2012. Yeah, that's right. [00:54:04] Speaker C: It's been a long time. I forgot I'm old, you know. Anyway, so he. Macklemore was the opening act for the Ed Sheeran tour and used that to comment on Palestine and free Palestine and Gaza and the war over there, siding against Israel and calling it a genocide, things like that. Sheeran gets the call from a number of people, led by New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft. Not exactly an upstanding man himself, but he rallied a number of the stadium owners to tell Ed Sheeran, hey, if this guy is still on your tour, you don't get to play the stadiums. You're basically, we're going to shut your tour down. Sheeran acquiesces. Macklemore posts about it online and kind of says, Ed Sheeran wants to stay neutral about this. But I'm not going to stay neutral. We can't stay neut neutral. Now, the other opening acts for the tour have quit because they think that Ed Sheeran flaked and he's not standing against the genocide and the killing the children in Palestine and Gaza and all this stuff. And, man, there's a lot to unpack here. So where do you guys want to go with it? [00:55:09] Speaker B: I feel bad for Ed Sheeran, personally, in all of this. I think, and I apply this to both sides of the aisle. Truly, I do. If you want to be somebody who literally just wants to be amazing at your profession and not ever comment on anything political or really like, I. I'm. I'm good with that. Go for it. Because I think. And maybe it's because I grew up in an era when I was really getting into sports, where. And. And I get, you know, not just sports, but, like, you know, celebrities, where that's all I heard was how much they hated Trump in 2016. And, you know, like, everybody was woke. Everybody wanted me to know how much they, you know, were a Democrat. Like, so I just got sick of it. And so now, and I guess where, like, kind of the example I'm giving is Caitlin Clark got kind of pounced on by people on the right because she basically just deflected a question about transgender women, you know, women in the NBA. And, like, Megyn Kelly called her coward or whatever, and Matt Walsh backed her up. And I. I get why people say that. I also, if Caitlin's like, listen, please, I just want to be excellent at basketball and not get in it, because she's pretty much stayed out of all this stuff so far. I was also good with that, too. Like, I. I, you know, I was not a fan of Megyn Kelly, calling her a coward or whatever it is with this. Like, with Ed Sheeran, once again, like, man, he just wants to play his stadiums. He just wants to play his music. He's a musician. He's very talented. He's obviously not quite as relevant as he used to be, but, you know, he did not want any part of this. And. And obviously, the ironic part of this is Macklemore, kind of the guy that started all of this, has not really been relevant for as Jack said 10, 15 years, and yet he's the one going out kind of on his campaign, like, basically forgetting the fact that he is an entertainer. He is a performer. He is not paid for his Palestine opinions. He is paid for his performance, his talents, or lack thereof, depending on whatever you think of Macklemore. And. And so now it's a big mess. And. Yeah, so that's kind of. My quick take is once again, like, I. I do wish for a space where I didn't know everybody's political opinions, and I realized the world has changed. This is not 2005, but that's kind of what I. What I would like to go back to a little bit. But maybe that's just because the era I grew up in. What about y'? All? [00:57:27] Speaker A: Well, the world changed and became a worse place when we started idolizing these people and they started thinking that he had a voice that mattered. Like, dude, you're a good actor or you're a good singer or whatever it may be. Leave it at that. To your point. Leave it at that and call it a day. Oh, no, no. I have a voice. I got to use my voice to stand out and to speak for people and speak for the disenfranchise and everything else. And it's like. Like you said, I feel bad for Ed Sheeran. It puts him between a rock and a hard place, because it's like if Macklemore went out and lit himself on fire on behalf of all the starving kids in Africa, you know, and. And Ed Sheeran doesn't go out and light himself on fire. I guess he doesn't care about starving kids in Africa, you know what I mean? It could be so silent as violence. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. [00:58:02] Speaker A: I mean, and they destroy people for doing those things. To me, this is the world eating the world. This is what it'll always end up with. That would be my take on. This is. This is the inevitability. It's the Muslims going after the homosexuals who are going after the transgender in some situations, who are going after those with Gaza and Palestine, who are going after the Jews, who are going after that. Like, they're all eating each other, because that's what the world does. And this is the conflict that comes from that of, like, who's more woke, who's more. We're used to it happening against Christians. Now it's just happened against those in the world, and they're being forced to deal with cancel culture amidst themselves. You know, what does that look like? So, I don't know. I think this is the inevitability. Like, these things are always going to happen when you have a world that is as fractured as it is and so many selfish people out there. So. So that's why Christianity is going to stand strong. It has to stand strong, is because we are the bulwark against all of the craziness of the world. Like this. [00:59:07] Speaker C: So there's a real interesting thread to pull on. I'm not going to do here about Robert Kraft and making a few phone calls and the power he has to shut this whole thing down. We did an episode on that kind of thing a while back, but we're not going to do that again here. Mine is going back to Robert Kraft. [00:59:21] Speaker B: Sorry, I was just going to say the bastion of morals and ethics, Robert Kraft. Yeah. [00:59:26] Speaker C: Guy with enough problems of his own. One boy, he was taking that seriously. So, Proverbs, the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20. I remember reading that as a kid, because one of the things my dad drilled into our head is, stupid people will get you killed. And don't hang around. And we just talked about fools, stupid people, all that on our. Our whole episode. Here it comes out. You cannot tie your fate in any way to woke people. People, they will drag you down with them. They will destroy everything you've built. They cannot help themselves. It is just 100%. They don't know anything about Palestine. God, I mean, like, that whole mess over there. None of those people like us, none of those people have anything but hatred for any of us. And so why do I care? But, like, oh, man, it's his righteous cause. Like, man, if you care about kids getting killed, speak about abortion, go after that one. Okay? There's plenty of stuff here at home to go after. But no, we just. We cannot be silent. [01:00:24] Speaker B: It's a virtue signal. Signaling. [01:00:25] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, like, that whole thing is an abomination. They've been doing this to each other forever and ever and ever. But the woke people cannot help themselves with virtue signal. It's their religion. It's how they're good people. And if you surround yourself with people like that, like Ed Sheeran did, it will come back to bite you. [01:00:44] Speaker B: It's a great take, I think. [01:00:45] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, that's a great take. [01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one of the. A lot of different angles to it, obviously. Listen, like, who cares about Ed Sheeran? Who cares about any of this stuff? Like, it's just fascinating to watch some of this stuff kind of unfold. And it's It's a big story right now. Probably won't be in three days, but. Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:04] Speaker C: Well, there's the peer pressure angle too. I mean, like, your kids, when they go to college campus, these are the woke people. They are peer pressured by all the time. And you think about all of these bands canceling on Ed Sheeran, that's the kind of peer pressure he's facing is like, oh, now Ed's a terrible person because he's not going along with him. Like, what's he supposed to do do? And how many college kids face that and crumble in front of it? [01:01:23] Speaker A: And there's an honoring your commitments, which is shout out to the gym podcast. We talk about that a lot of like, man, you committed to doing this. And now because the political winds, you just stuck your finger up in the air and go, oh, the winds are turning this way. You decide to cancel on a commitment you've made to a guy that you're willing to break the friendship, you're willing to. To bust up his career in certain ways, potentially lose him millions of dollars and yourself, like, all because you cannot stand to stand up to the woke mom mob, which is the, in my opinion, the loud minority. I think most of us are looking at it going, man, this is stupid. This whole woke thing's ridiculous. But they're really, really loud and they have a ton of sway and we've allowed that sway. So it goes to the. The episode we just recorded. This is where mockery has to come back in. This is where we have to be able to put these things down and go, the wokeism is done. It's jumped the shark. We are past this point. We're not putting up with this anymore because it's it. This does destroy lives, it destroys friendships, it destroys a lot of things, careers and relationships and everything else. And yeah, we gotta. We gotta get past this wokeness in [01:02:27] Speaker C: the world for sure. All right, that's gonna wrap up our think fast and our entire. Our whole episode on rhetoric, on harsh talk, satire, sarcasm and all that. So if you're catching the thing fast, look out for that episode on Monday. If you've listened to the whole thing. Thanks for tuning in. Be sure to join us for the deep end over on FocusPlus. FocusPress.org/Link is in the comments below where you get the deep end and a whole lot of other content every week. If you drop a comment here on YouTube, I will try and get back to you as soon as I can. But again, thanks to everybody for listening and we'll talk to you on the next one. Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.