Are There Degrees of Heaven and Hell?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome in to Think deeper, presented by FocusPress. We have a very interesting episode for you today. We have been researching this actually quite a bit and may have some different takes and some different ideas and some, some pushback and, and all sorts of stuff that, yeah, we're very excited to get into. We got a lot of biblical stuff to look at. Not every episode takes us deep into scripture. This one does. This is something that I think is. It's been on our radar a lot for a long time, I would say. And we recently, I think, had a comment that brought it back up for us that sparked that interest yet again because we said, you know, we need to do a little more research on this. And so we went, studied it, looked at a ton of different sides, ton of different angles to this, different people's understandings of the, the idea of levels to heaven and hell. And so to set us up with this episode, Jack, I'm going to turn over to you and then let you get into why we're talking about it. And yeah, just kind of set this up for us. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah, there's kind of cultural ideas about it that come from different sources. A lot of what people think of in hell and heaven to some degree comes from Dante and the Divine Comedy and Inferno and all of those pieces of what he wrote hundreds of years ago. And so there he has the nine circles of hell, nine circles of heaven, and kind of the rankings and it gets worse and worse, better and better. But there's also, of course we sing about Mansion over the Hilltop and that idea and kind of maybe a misinterpretation in John 14 of in my father's house are many mansions, and oh, how big is your mansion going to be? And I remember jokes as a kid about like, you know, you go up there and so. And so has got a huge mansion and you know, who has the little one, things like that. A lot of, I don't know, maybe there's some irreverence, but also just kind of humor and looking at all from a human sense. And then of course there's confusion over 2nd Corinthians 12 where Paul talks about being caught up to the third heaven. And is that the layers of heaven? Well, with that one, it's talking about heaven in a, like a geographical sense almost of like where the birds are, where the stars are, and above that is the third heaven, where God is. And so that's not a levels of heaven thing. That doesn't mean that because those are misunderstandings, that the conversation's over and that's the entirety of it. Of course, you can add to that the Catholic sense of purgatory, of you're kind of in this in between place, of you are under punishment, so you're being kind of prepared and the worldliness is being stripped from you and you're paying your dues, and then you can come into heaven. And so there's kind of that intermediary place, not talking about that either. C.S. lewis's great divorce had a similar concept of that of like, you could kind of get out of heaven or get out of hell and come into heaven, but you weren't really ready for it and you had to adapt and things like that. We'll talk about that maybe a little bit more. There's a lot of confusion about this and a lot of cultural views as to what it may be. But the question is, is it biblical? And that's, I think, what we want to explore here. [00:03:07] Speaker C: Jack, you said there's a lot of confusion around it, and I agree. I think there's also a lot of fascination around it for specifically people within the Church of Christ who, you know, these types of questions. And I think it is true that kind of the stereotype about the Church of Christ is that we are in our Bibles more than denominations and stuff like that. I would agree with that. Like, we tend to stick closer to the Bible than anybody. And so with that comes this question and this fascination with this idea of. And I think that typically the way it's worded is like levels of reward, but degrees of punishment. Like, what are the different degrees of punishment? And I think there are so many different questions that can be raised from this type of discussion about, you know, what if there are different degrees of punishment? What is it that causes somebody to, To. To. To trigger that next level of punishment, if you will. And as far as levels of reward, we're obviously going to get into why we are not advocates for a workspace salvation, which if you're a listener to the podcast for any amount of time, then you ought to know that already. But in this conversation, that's inevitably going to come up. And so, yeah, I guess those would be my only introductory thoughts before we get into kind of the nitty gritty. And as Joe to be in our Bibles a lot. And so if this is a. You're listening to the episode as you drive, you know, feel free. But if you're. It might be a little bit more suited to you being somewhere where you can have your Bible open or your Bible app open or Whatever it may be, because we're going to be looking a lot of scripture here. But yeah, I just this, the fascination about it, which I think is obviously not wrong to any degree for Christians to have, is what stuck out to me the most about this. And as you. There's a lot of scripture, a lot more scripture than I realized before looking into this. This that gives an indication one way or the other. I would say so, yeah. My introductory thoughts there. Joe, turn it back over to you. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Sure. So the way I think we should structure this is we're not going off an outline, just some thoughts is I think it would be helpful for us to build the case that there is. All three of us seem to be leaning, I think, in the cats out the bag in the direction that there is. [00:05:04] Speaker A: On both sides. [00:05:05] Speaker B: On both sides, there are levels of heaven. [00:05:07] Speaker A: There are levels of hell or not levels of heaven. Levels. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Not levels. Correct. Levels of reward. I was going to say. I want to rephrase that. [00:05:12] Speaker C: Levels of reward versus punishment. Yeah. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Ease of punishment. Yeah, Levels of punishment. So let's build that up. Let's. Let's steal man our side. And then I have some, actually, I think some good accusations against it that I really want to dig into because I can already hear people immediately going, whoa, whoa, whoa, what about this? What about that? We want to get into that. And we really did try to look at both sides here and play both sides to make sure we're not blanket statementing this, because for some this is going to be like a radical idea. Excuse me. Excuse me. As you talk about Will, like, is this workspace salvation is things like that. We want to speak to those concerns and make sure that people are not misunderstanding the point here of what we're trying to say because, yeah, this can get people upset, I think, to the idea of, well, great, so I'm just not going to be as high in heaven as somebody else. Hold on, let us get to that and build out the case here. And so for that, fellas, we got several verses I think we can jump. [00:06:05] Speaker C: To, but just briefly to state my case or kind of why I think the amount of scriptural evidence that there is is simply too high to reject it outright. Is like. Is basically my position of like, am I 100% certain? Probably not, but it's pretty high, high 80s, low 90% percentage for me of like, I think the scriptural evidence is just too high for somebody to dismiss it. And Joe, you're going to have some interesting rebuttals and kind of, as you said, Accusations or responses to this, but as we're about to get into. And then. Jack, I don't know if you want to start us off. I've got quite a few scriptures I want to look at, but. Yeah, there just seems to be one of those things that it's not one or two verses here and there. It's kind of obscure and you kind of have to stretch to see, like. No, there's verse after verse after verse after verse. In the New Testament specifically, that would seem to indicate this idea. So that would be my position, Joe, and I think all of us would agree, but essentially, like, not. I'm. I'm not 100% sure, but it does seem like there probably is, based on the scriptural evidence. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Do you want to kick us off on. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Let's go to Matthew 10, verse 42. There's a parallel in Mark, which, I mean, basically says the same thing in Mark 9:41 and Matthew 10:42. Whosoever shall give to drink. Why do I have my King James with me here? Whosoever shall give to a drink unto one of these little ones, a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple. Verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. Now, of course it talks about reward, but if you go back, the verse above that, he's talking about righteous reward as well. He said, he that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. We sing about that. Of just a cup of water I place within your hand. That is more familiar. But that verse in front of it, you don't hear that one as much or referenced or that thought. What is a prophet's reward? Why is that different? What does that mean? And so when you talk about reward, your mind might instantly go toward just heaven in general for everybody. But then he makes a distinction in the verse before about, like, different types of rewards. Yeah. A greater or. He doesn't say greater, but when you say a prophet's reward, it sure seems like he's talking about something a little bit above and beyond. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Are you going to continue in the King James or. [00:08:26] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:08:29] Speaker C: Well, while Jack is. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:32] Speaker C: Read out of a King James version in my entire life before, so I. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Like it more and more all the time. But it's not ideal for podcasting when you're not used to Reading it's not so. [00:08:42] Speaker B: Going to love it, though. Yeah. [00:08:44] Speaker C: Let me go to one that. That I had down, I'm sure. I think probably all of our outlines have very similar verses here, but Luke 19 is one that comes up the Parable of the Minas. Of course, there's a parallel about the Parable of the Talents. Kind of debating on whether or not I want to read the whole thing here, but verse 12. Therefore, he said, a certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten Minas, and said to them, do business till I come. But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, we will not have this man to reign over us. And so it was that when he had returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him. And he might know how much every man gained by trading. Then came the first saying, master, your mind has earned 10 minus. And he said to him, well done, good servant, because you were faithful, and very little have authority over 10 cities. The second came saying, Master, your Minas earn five Minas. Likewise, he said to him, you might also be over five cities. Another came saying, master, here's your Mina, which I've kept put away in a handkerchief, for I feared you. We. You kind of know the rest of the story. Again, this is parallel with the Parable of the Talents. But the idea there that different levels of reward being different based on the. The things that were done, the. The amount of work, and we'll get into it in a second, but the amount of work that was done by those servants is what yielded them the authority over the certain level of cities. [00:09:57] Speaker B: And. [00:09:58] Speaker C: And it was not a flat application. And so it's argued that because the reward the people received was based on how much they brought in, that this would imply different levels of reward based on. Yeah, fruit that was born, essentially. And so, yeah, that's one that I wanted to add. Joe, what one did you have to bring to the table? [00:10:18] Speaker B: Well, so actually there's several, but one that I thought was interesting just looking at it, one that I've read a ton of times, never really took it from this angle. Matthew 16:27. For the son of man is going to come in the glory of his Father, Father with his angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. And I've wrestled with this one before because I thought, okay, for the negative, I understand that. That he's gonna, you know, look at our. Look at our deeds, look at our actions, the things that we've done. And he's going to kind of the recompense type of thing. [00:10:47] Speaker C: Joe, what does your translation have for. For reward? Because does your say reward? [00:10:52] Speaker B: He will repay every man every day. [00:10:54] Speaker C: See my. Yeah, so mine says with. And I don't know if we can pull up the Greek here but for the Son of man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels and he will reward each according to his works. And so because if it's repay or render, you can make the argument oh he's dispersing heaven, he's dispersing hell. Like one gets salvation, one gets combination. But if, if the word is reward, then it's exclusively one side. And to each according to his works is very interesting. Sorry to cut you off, but no, you're good. [00:11:18] Speaker B: So the Greek lexicon has to give out, to give up or yield, to meet a contractual or other obligation pay or to fulfill, to restore an original, possess or give back, return recompense. [00:11:31] Speaker C: Or. [00:11:31] Speaker B: To make an exchange actually. So all five of those are definitions given. B dag. So yeah, to me that makes it look very much like. Because I often wondered as a Christian, he's going to overlook all the bad deeds that we've done. That's Christ has got us covered, right? Those things have been washed away. So what does that mean when he's going to repay according to the deeds? If it's okay to the negative, sure, I get that. What about to the positive? Are there good deeds that he will? And it's like okay, well done, good faithful servant, enter into the rest. And that's where people might go. So they might just say well yeah, that just means heaven, that everybody's going to get heaven. But each one it seems like an individual according to his deeds, his or her deeds. Like your deeds are going to basically your deeds are going to matter in the judgment is what it seems like. Not just the bad deeds, but the good ones as well will matter. So what are your guys thoughts on that one? That's one I ran across a bunch. It's a different way of looking at it than I think we usually. I guess I skim over that one. What are your guys thoughts on that? [00:12:25] Speaker A: I was looking at it and there's cross references to a bunch of things in the Old Testament. The Psalms say something very similar. Job does Isaiah about God giving back according to their deeds, or the psalmist praying that God would recompense the evil according to their deeds. And you might think well he's looking at that in this life. But we also don't really believe in the God gets back at people in this life thing. The kind of the karma thing or whatever of as you see in Jesus's day, oh, something bad happened to them. Clearly they did something wrong. Or with Job's friends. What did you do to deserve this? You know, God's giving you back according to your deeds. We would look at that as at the judgment and reward or punish according to your deeds. And that's something again Paul draws on. It comes up a bunch of times and that. Well, I think that takes us a different direction. But Will, I want to get your thoughts before I jump it in that to the next verse I want to go to. [00:13:16] Speaker C: Well, I'm not sure what direction you were thinking, but what Joe brings up is a specific point that I wanted to bring up and that is the Desmond talks a lot in the Bible as you spoke to Jack, even the Old Testament talks a lot about this idea of rendering to each according to their deeds. I looked up that word, Joe. It is the same word used in Romans 2, 6 when Paul talking about it will render to each one according to his deeds. Is used in Matthew 6. The Father will reward you openly is what new King James has about those who do their charitable deeds, those who pray, those who fast. All those things will reward you openly. But yeah, that idea of rendering to each according to their deeds, you know, we tend to think that that's just referring to again, salvation, you know, your salvation to one and condemnation to the other. And it's just kind of this flat rate. No, no, no variance to that whatsoever. And as far as just the way language works, that's not. That doesn't seem to be the, the indication. And I think this might be more of a discussion for the. The degrees of punishment. I know we're explicitly talking about the reward right now. So yeah, that was my only thought is that we do need to have that conversation at some point because very quickly. Interesting. Let me go to Romans 2:6. And then Jack, it's all you. And that's in the middle of a, of a sentence. So I'm going to go back up and read starting in verse 4, Romans chapter 2, verse 4. You despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance. But in accordance with your hardness and your penitent heart, you are treasuring up for yourself or storing up for yourself wrath in the day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God who will render to each one according to his deeds. Article I ran across pointed out that that word for storing up or treasuring up it it's the same idea of Matthew 6, verse 20 laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven. It's the idea of like you are, you are investing in something, you're putting more and more away towards something, you are doing something that is again like I think investment is the best word to use to try to sum up that idea of like you are storing up for your by what you are doing, you are storing up for yourself something. And obviously for the righteous, the prayer and goal of that is that as you go later on in the chapter glory, honor and peace for those who are righteous. But specifically in Romans 2 he's talking about there in verse 5 and 6, you're treasuring up, you're storing for yourself up wrath, you are making investments, you are putting more and more away towards this idea of wrath in the day of judgment. And is that just a one time thing where you make one investment and you're done, or does it compound on itself? Well, we know how investments work and so yeah, that's where I wanted to go with that. It's an interesting concept of what that word means both for those who do evil and those who do good, those who are righteous and those who are evil. And so yeah, Joe, go ahead. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Well, very briefly also because that also mentions according to I don't know if that's how your translation says it, but according to Wayne Jackson had an interesting because he does he agrees with us on this and he had an interesting thought on it. On that Greek word specifically with kata. Kata, whatever it is. The preposition kata according to implies a norm standard by which rewards or punishments are given. Given. If this does not signify a proportionately fair dispersal, language scarcely has any meaning. I think that's interesting as well. This according to I wanted to hit that point before we move to Jack's of like that according to each does seem to indicate there's going to be levels even within that phrasing within that word that he's using to try to draw a difference between that, that norm or that standard by which they will be given some less, some more type of thing is according to so I thought that was an interesting point as well that I wanted to make before we get off it because Matthew 16 and Romans 2, I believe we're both using that same phrase. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Well also second Corinthians 5:10 we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to, as he said, what he has done, whether good or bad. I think looking at it this way solves the question of a lot of people have asked man, if we're already saved, why do we have to go before the judgment seat of Christ and give account? Do we have to give account for our sins even though God has forgotten our sins or whatever else? And I think this is a way of answering it, of you're going to go, and it's kind of like, all right, let's see what you did, what investments you made in laying up your treasures in heaven. Matthew 6. Things like that, I think is kind of the idea that he's getting at there. Because the start of Second Corinthians 5, he's talking about our assurance. We want to be out of the body. We're absent from the Lord here in the body. We want to go home and be with him. And it's very much assurance. And then he comes back to we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. And so he's not taking away your assurance. He's talking about what the verse directly before that is. Therefore, we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. As in, we're already Christians now while we're here, we try to please him because of the rendering of deeds. We're going to get at the judgment. Because the other thing is we're not saved by our deeds. [00:18:24] Speaker B: We're not. [00:18:25] Speaker A: It's not a matter of our good works. He's not pulling out the, did you do enough? You know, like that. This is a different kind of a different category, I think. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Well, you're already that. That's the one of the biggest things. Well, this is works based salvation. You're already saved. You're not losing your salvation based off of what you do or do not do. It's like you're safe. What more can we build on top of it? What, what can we do for the glory of God? That is going to kind of. I think heaven is all about the glory of God, us getting to bask in and appreciate the glory of God and being raised up in the glory of God. We have an opportunity to do that on earth. Rather, before we get to heaven, are we going to ascend to kind of the glory of God doing everything we can for that purpose? And so it's like we can bring heaven down to earth and learn to appreciate heaven all the more, which kind of gets us into. I don't want to get off topic, but that is the great divorce you mentioned. Like, some are more suited for heaven in a way. It's kind of the idea that he talks about of things being very real. [00:19:18] Speaker C: Graphic joy in heaven. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Right. And that some are going to have. Yeah, that just that greater joy. And I don't know if this is the time to get it. I want to finish our verse. I think we have one or two more. Jack, do you have another one you wanted to get to? [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, I'll jump through that. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Let's do that. Because I have other questions that I want to come back to specifically surrounding this. So get us through the verses and then we'll come back. 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You can see all of them at our website, focuspress.org podcasts okay, First Corinthians 3 and I think this goes along with the parable of the talents that will brought out earlier, and the distribution and all that. 1 Corinthians 3, verse 10 according to the grace of God, which was given to me, like a wise master builder, I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds, builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident, for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved. Yet so as through fire and so he's talking about the work of ministry and this idea that what Paul and what other ministers and missionaries were building up was going to be something that either was going to withstand the judgment and it's going to be there and it's going to be proof of their workmanship. It's like something that they have on the other side or they're going to lose. That's not going to make it through to the other side with them because they didn't build something that endured. And he says they'll still be saved. This isn't about whether they lose their salvation or not. This is about what you come through the other side of the salvation still kind of hanging on to what makes it through that trial by fire. [00:21:45] Speaker C: I think this is such an so instructive for the discussion of. And it was already kind of brought up, Joe, but like why do we do we do works baptized, like what's the point if we've already been saved? If we've already kind of achieved our salvation, why do we need to bear fruit? And you know, the answer is kind of always, well, you know, you bear fruit because of what God has done for you. And you know, you kind of, it's a natural outflowing, natural outworking of becoming obedient to Christ. Of course. I agree with that. [00:22:11] Speaker B: I was going to say I agree with that. [00:22:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I don't think that's wrong by any means. But yeah, I just think it sheds more light on kind of the, the reason behind it and maybe the, the reason why you are going to continue to strive and continue to try to grow, continue to try to work in the kingdom, continue to try to work in your home and disciple your own children and, and all these things. It's not for, for bragging rights. It's not for. And you know, we had the discussion about having jewels in your crown, so to speak, but I don't know, it's, it's so groundbreaking. I think for a lot of Christians who truly do, I know how to keep using the phrase, but truly view it as kind of like a flat rate salvation. Like everybody just gets the exact same thing. We're all going to be up there in one big giant circle. And yeah, Jack, I'm really glad you brought this one in. I think this one is a very, very instructive to this idea of everybody and that because that's the other distinction. Everybody gets salvation. Those who are in Christ get salvation. But the reward, that's the word that keeps being used, the level of reward is what seems to be varying to some extent. Everybody is saved, everybody will get to be with God, everybody crosses the finish line, so to speak. But the Bible seems to indicate there will be varying levels of what that. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Reward will be, that idea of our motivation and kind of what we're working for after we're saved. I want to put a pin in that and come back to it at the end because I think there's some scriptural considerations and some back and forth to be had on that, but I'll save it for after we kind of get through both sides of this. Joe, did you have another scripture in this section you want to get to. [00:23:44] Speaker C: You're muted, Joe. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. [00:23:46] Speaker B: I was going back to the First Corinthians 3. One of, you know, he says in that verse 8 Now, he who plants and eat waters are one, beach one receive his own reward according to his own labor. What people might say to that is, yeah, you're going to get to heaven and you're going to have. And go into the wood and the hay and the straw and things like that test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work is built upon over man, he will receive a reward. Some people might say the reward is just getting to meet those people in heaven and that it's very sad that if the people that you baptized fall away, you don't get that same reward of getting that joy to meet those people in heaven and to get to see that your work withstood kind of the temptation, or, yeah, I guess temptation withstood earth, whatever that may be, that kind of took them away from it. What would you say to that specifically in this passage saying, no, the reward is not a level of reward of joy, other than to say you got to see all of your work kind of brought into heaven and rejoice with them. [00:24:44] Speaker C: I always go down to verse 14, where he kind of says something very similar. Jack and I read it a second ago. If anyone's work which he has built on endures, he will receive a reward. To me, it's a stretch to say the reward is. Is just, oh, you get to see those people in heaven. Like, there's nothing wrong with that conclusion. I just think you. I, I think somebody believes that has to basically jump through just as many mental. Do just as many mental gymnastics or even more as somebody who might try to argue that there's levels of reward, if that makes sense. Like, I don't. I don't see that very clearly in there. So if you're going to argue that I think I could also just as easily argue Seems like there might be something else to it. Jack, how about you? [00:25:21] Speaker A: No, I I think that checks out totally to me. I don't really have anything to add. [00:25:26] Speaker C: So do we want to go ahead and get into the levels of punishment or deal with your rebuttals first, Joe, or degrees of punishment first? [00:25:34] Speaker B: Let's. [00:25:35] Speaker C: I would say let's go ahead and do that. Let's. Let's handle that because I think it ties in. It's going to tie in with some of your stuff. Joe. Yeah, so I'll bring a couple and then whoever wants to go next. So Luke chapter 12 is where I'll go for this one, where Jesus tells a parable essentially. This one is short enough to where I can just read it. 47 and 48 of Luke chapter 12, where he says in that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from whom much will be required, and to whom much has been committed of him, they will ask the more Pretty clear there, the idea that two different levels of severity essentially for these beatings, one person knew that individual was and this is a this is a parable kind of the faithful servant, evil servant. One knew and received many stripes. The other one was beaten with few differing levels of punishment there. The other one that I'll add and this one. You'll see several places in the Gospels. The first one that I've got is Matthew, chapter 11, starting in verse 20. Then he began to rebuke the cities in which most of his mighty works have been done, because they did not repent. Woe to you, Khorazin. Woe to you, Bethsaida. For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you and you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, the day of judgment, than for you. What does that phrase more tolerable mean? Like if it's just one condemnation, one level of judgment for everybody. Then there is not going to be any varying degrees of tolerance, you know, according to the way we understand it. And so that would be another piece of scriptural evidence that one might use to argue that there are different levels of degrees is that in this scenario Jesus is saying, hey, your issue here is going to be far worse than even sodomy in this example or Tyre and Sidon. And so, yeah, those would be the two. Who wants to go next? There's quite a few. To me, there were more for this one for degrees of punishment than there were for degrees or for levels of reward. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Well, I want to tack one on to this one because I think it raises a question regarding degrees of punishment. 2nd Peter 2:20. For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known it to turn away from the holy command and hand it on to them. It has happened to them. According to the true proverb, a dog returns to its own vomit and a sow after washing returns to wallowing in the mire. And so that with the one you read about those cities, and it'll be better for Sodom and Gomorrah in that day. Some might say that there's not actually a worse punishment other than the psychological of knowing what you lost knowing. You know, Joe and I have been going through this with our sports teams of like, man, if they had one five minute stretch that was better, they probably would have won the championship. Whereas if you root for a team that wasn't even in the playoffs, like, who cares? You know, like having been so close that you, you thought you had it. Well, the same of like you knew what it meant to be with God, you knew what Christianity was about, you knew the reward, you knew all that stuff. That it's just the psychological torment, somebody might say, and not just not an actual lower, hotter version of hell or whatever else, but it's just your own mind working against you. What would you guys say to that? [00:29:06] Speaker C: So, Joe, I'm sure you've got a thought. I wanted to add, and I think this verse kind of gives light or sheds light on my answer. And that's Hebrews chapter 10. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Beat me to it. [00:29:16] Speaker C: Is that where you're going? [00:29:16] Speaker B: Beat me to it? [00:29:17] Speaker C: Yep, had it pulled up Hebrews 10:26 and following. If we sin willfully after we've received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who's rejected Moses law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. And in verse 29, of how much worse punishment do you suppose will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord, and again the Lord will judge his people. It is a fearful thing to find his living God. There very much reads there not. It's not like a psychological thing. It's a, you rejected the Son of God, you insulted the Spirit of grace. God's got some retribution coming your way. Their vengeance is mine. I will pray, says Lord again. It is not just a man. It's going to mess with your head. It's like, no, you trampled underfoot the sacrifice of Christ. How much worse do you think this punishment is going to be for you? Is very much the way that reads verse 29. Go right ahead. [00:30:19] Speaker B: No, no, you're good. That verse 29 is key. My NASB has. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who is trampled under foot? The Son of God, man. I mean, that's to me like the severer the punishment is, not the, wow, you had it and lost it. I think that's part of it. I think there's a mental torment that comes along with, it was in my hand and I let it slip through. Yeah, you have to deal with that for all eternity. I think you will be very much aware of what you did or did. [00:30:44] Speaker C: But the vengeance piece with God. [00:30:46] Speaker B: The vengeance piece, Correct, the vengeance piece and the severer punishment. That harkens back to the verse that you read Matthew of like, this guy's been forgiven much and yet he tramples that underfoot. It's very much that guy that, okay, you go and forgive and he gets forgiven like a million or whatever it is denarii. And then he goes and beats up the servant that had very little bit. And then he gets thrown out because it's like you were forgiven a ton. And it seems like the person who tramples underfoot the sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 6, gets a little bit into that as well. Like the person who's willing to do that. Yeah, it is going to be much worse than the guy who either obviously is, you know, had a smaller debt to pay, I suppose, and who didn't. Who wasn't forgiven a ton. Because this supposes Christ has already forgiven you of your sins and then you went back into your sins, meaning his, you nullified. Now look at how he treats, going into AD 70, how he treats the Jewish people, the Pharisees and such, that trampled underfoot the son of God that they put. [00:31:45] Speaker A: I mean, somebody might say that was, you know, a punishment in this life though, when you go to that one. [00:31:49] Speaker B: True, true. But I'm saying like God clearly has problems with those that don't take Christ seriously. A common thread. So yeah, that one was in this life particular, but we don't know that it's not worse in the worst in the next life for them. That's presupposition. In this case though, I think 29, verse 29 of Hebrews 10 makes it clear there's a severe punishment. That's what I would say to that. So I'm with Will. I would repeating his death. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean severe punishment. It just says what it says. I think that also makes me think of Matthew 18:6 where he talks about the stumbling blocks. It'd be better to have a millstone hung around your neck. Why? He didn't say that about everybody. He said that about stumbling blocks. This one we just read in Hebrews 10. It was those who have had Christ and then rejected him and trampled him underfoot. You think about the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You've got a few things that are listed that way. And in the same sense that the Old Testament law lists, hey, this one gets you stoned to death. This one gets you a minor punishment. I think that needs to be brought into this account as well. [00:32:45] Speaker C: You're exactly right, Jack. And this is something that I was going to bring up because it's to me at the heart of the conversation and that is the. Well, all sin is sin in the sight of God. I disagree with that. I mean, obviously, yes, like if you sin by lying as opposed to sin like you, it is still falls under the category of sin and you are sinning against God. But the idea that you telling a lie, that Jesus views that in the exact same way as you brought up Matthew 18 of causing a little one to stumble or of the sin of homosexuality in Romans 1, or trampling underfoot, the sacrifice of like. I feel like we just in the largely Church of Christ thing majorly overdo the all sin is sin thing. And I think we do it to try to appeal to, you know, people who struggle with, you know, transgenderism, homosexuality. Like, we want to appear nice to the world. And so. Oh, you know, my gossip problem is just as wrong as your outright rejection of Christ. Like, I just, I don't know what yalls thoughts are. I just strongly disagree with that. And I think it's. That's what speaks to some of this, of Jesus saying to your point, Jack, like, for the specific instance in Matthew 18 of causing a little one to stumble, that's. That's a pretty. That's a very big deal. That, that, that transcends some of these other issues. And so again, like, yes, if you sin by lying or if you sin by, you know, causing a little one to stumble, it's both categorized as sin in the sight of God. That does not mean they're equal in my viewpoint. And so I think that's an interesting thing to bring up. [00:34:11] Speaker B: John 19 is very interesting as well. John 19:11, Jesus answered talking about Pilate, you would have no authority over me unless it had been given you from above. For this reason, he who delivered me to you has the greater sin. And then you look at how he talks about Judas of like, it had been better if he had not been born. It's about to be really bad for him. That's not like, well, I walked with Jesus and I knew better. He already knew better. That's why he went and hung himself. [00:34:31] Speaker C: Right? [00:34:31] Speaker B: There seems to be a strong punishment and they hang himself. [00:34:34] Speaker C: Judicious Judas sin is just as bad as the gossip problem that I have. Like, no, right. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Like, there are levels of. There's a greater sin. The guy who delivered him over to Pilate. Yes, Pilate sends him to be crucified, but Pilate's kind of on the fence a little bit. The guy who delivered him over has the greater sin. So I think the concept of there being levels of sin I think bears out in Scripture. You can look at 1 Corinthians 6 and those who sin against the body. And there seems to be a special place in Romans 1 for sexual sin and idolatry and turning away from God and things like that. And the highest levels of sin seems to be for those that were in Christ and who then trampled underfoot the sacrifice of Christ. So, yeah, I think you can very much bear this out through scripture, that there's multiple levels. I wanted to look at one, though. I was talking to you guys about this ahead of time. Now that was very interesting. Don't know what to make of it. Fully. It's back in Isaiah 14. We pull this up real fast. Isaiah 14, verse 15. Get back to that one. Isaiah 14. [00:35:30] Speaker C: And Mr. Paper Bible over there is going digital today. [00:35:35] Speaker B: I'm going digital. I was going to say. I hate going digital most of the time. It's a lot faster for me now. [00:35:39] Speaker A: I will send out a King James. [00:35:44] Speaker B: I'm going to pull out my new living translation. [00:35:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Watch out for the message Bible here. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Not exactly. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Is it hell even in those Bibles? [00:35:50] Speaker C: I don't think so. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Says, I will send verse 14 of Isaiah 14. I will stand above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the most high. Nevertheless, talking about Lucifer, going back to verse 12, the fallen ahead. And nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit. Some say to the darkest or the deepest part of the pit, some say to the outer, outer ring of the pit, which is like the hottest searing parts on the side. Lowest sides of the sides of the pit, lowest depths. So what do you guys make of that? Talking about Satan being cast down essentially to the hottest part of hell, is what it seems like the lowest part of the pit. The. The sides of the pit that is burning and, you know, things like that. What are your thoughts? Do you think this is a worthy passage to bring up in that context, or do you think this is more going to be on the prophetic type of apocalyptic literature here? [00:36:42] Speaker C: I think it's a piece, piece of evidence. I think what the question it raises for me, and this is one that I don't have an answer to, and I don't think anybody really does necessarily, is, okay, so what would those different degrees of punishment be? You just spoke to kind of like, okay, is it hotter flames? Is it. You know, I've read some stuff about, you know, you are. It's more quiet, essentially. Like you, you're not going to be. You're going to be secluded essentially from other people. [00:37:08] Speaker A: Whereas, like, solitary confinement is worse. [00:37:11] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly like that. And so that's where. So to answer your question, Joe, like, I think it's a piece of evidence, a good one to bring up. But the question it raised for me is like, what would the lowest depths of that be? What would the. What would trigger a second punishment or second degree of punishment? And is it just hotter flames? Is it. Is it all those things? And that's what I don't really have an answer for. But it's an interesting thing to think about. [00:37:32] Speaker B: Well, I think that's the key question for both of this that we do need to get into. Like when we talk about greater reward and when we talk about greater punishment, what exactly are we referring to? Are we talking about the bigger mansion, things like that, or are we talking about closeness to God? You get to be a little closer to God, you're closer to the city, the depths or you know the, the inner part of the city and some people are kind of the outskirts in the villages. Like how you view heaven is interesting and how you view hell. If there's various levels to the pit and Satan gets the darkest, deepest part of the pit, maybe the hottest, then does the guy who like worked his 9 to 5 job and it was pretty good but just didn't come around to the gospel, does he get to be on the upper level type of thing that's not as hot? I mean this is kind of the question, it's all speculation. But what are your guys thoughts? [00:38:16] Speaker C: Let me speak to the reward thing for just a second. It's interesting. A lot of the stuff I ran across was like part of the reward in heaven has to do with the responsibility that you're given in heaven of the ruler over 10 cities, rule over five cities, whatever. Like that's typically what it's associated with is not like you'll have and man what your eschatology viewpoints are comes into this discussion a lot. As far as heaven, what that's going to look like. But not to get into that. But you know, I don't think, I don't. My personal view would be that it's not about you're going to have necessarily a. Because the word mansion in John 14 that's pretty poor translation. Dwelling places is better but like oh you're going to have a six car garage that have a five car. Like obviously that's not what it's talking about. From a materialistic standpoint you could make the argument, I suppose that you'll be closer to God. I think that that's pretty, pretty shaky ground to me. The one that makes the most sense would be like you'll have certain level of responsibility maybe in heaven that others will not. I don't know what the rulership structure will look like necessarily or there's a lot we don't know. But at least with the parables that Jesus gives and a lot of these places you go to in scripture there seems to be this idea of responsibility is part of the, the reward. Another thing I was reading talked about, you'll have greater joy. I don't know what to make of it. Jack, what thoughts do you have to Joe's question there? It's an interesting one. [00:39:34] Speaker A: It is an interesting one. You know, you see like the elders or apostles, you know, the references, maybe revelation kind of depends on how you take those of. And kind of Jesus even talking to his apostles and where they didn't understand about being at his right hand and he was talking about, you know, the greatest in the kingdom, the least and all that. Well, even that implies almost a kind of ranking. And then the. Where he talks about in the Beatitudes of when you're persecuted, rejoice because your reward in heaven is great. The martyrs in Revelation as well, and kind of their status, it does seem like the greater the sacrifice, maybe the more recognition, the more. And that's kind of the way I view it. It might be responsibility, recognition, whatever you want to call it. But as I told you guys off air, like it makes sense to me that Paul would be a little more prominent than however it works in heaven. And it's very weird to me that God has set up heaven hierarchically, the angels hierarchically. You've got archangels, you've got things like that. There's been hierarchy and everything God has ever created and you're going to get to heaven and it's going to be just this flat. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, everybody. I could kind of see there being. [00:40:49] Speaker C: That's a good point. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Officers of heaven, the apostles, does that carry over things like that? Well, you're exactly right. We're speculating here. [00:40:57] Speaker C: But yeah, hierarchy has existed everywhere else in God's creation. And for that to just completely be non existent in heaven just doesn't seem to add up. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah, but they might say this is where you get into what's in heaven. The free will and the ability to choose between right and wrong is also in God's creation. And that's not, you know, that's not going to be in heaven. The ability to choose right and wrong. So though I agree with that point, overall, I think the people to play the opposite or devil's advocate or whatever you want to say, the opposite side, they might look at it and say there's plenty of things that God has put in creation that aren't necessarily going to be there. Such as, yes, the ability to choose the tree of knowledge of good and evil, like most people you talk to are going to say that is taken out of it. You're not going to have an opportunity to fall. There are theories out there, and one that I used to believe was like, it's kind of like you'll see sin for what it is. And so you're never going to choose the bowl of mushrooms over the bowl of ice cream. Like, okay, maybe it's there, but I don't think you could fall. But then that goes against all of heaven and, you know, your ability to lose it. So I think I'm against it at that point. But that does kind of go into There may be things. Heaven may be different than what it is down here. But one thing that I thought this was very interesting. I'm going to read a from a guy's blog real fast. He says, finally, degrees of reward and eternity involve both enlarged responsibilities as well as the enhanced spiritual capacities. An experience I had several years ago aptly underscores this biblical reality. I received an invitation to play Cypress Point, arguably the most spectacular golf course on planet Earth. While the invitation to play Cypress Point was free, I have seldom worked harder to prepare anything for anything in my life. For months, I beat my body into submission. I lifted weights, worked on stretching exercises, and pounded thousands of golf balls, all while dreaming of the day I would physically experience walking the fairways of Cypress Point. Without my strenuous preparation, I still would have experienced the same cliffside vistas and breathtaking views. I still would have been able to smell the fragrance fragrance of the Monterey cypresses and feel a refreshing sting of the salt upon salt air upon my face. All the hard work, however, added immeasurably to the experience. That is how heaven will be. What are your thoughts on that? I thought that was a very interesting take of like, you're going to appreciate heaven. And maybe this is where some people might look at the reward is you're going to appreciate heaven all the more when you have really put in the work. Now it was free. He got to go to the golf course. One way or the other. Salvation's free. This is not a workspace salvation. We are all going to heaven. Those who have put Christ on a baptism and are living faithful, we're all going to heaven. On the other hand, is there a level of appreciating heaven all the more, do you think that factors into the reward discussion? That's going to be. The greater reward is the ability to appreciate it or to be in. How does he say it? He says it'll involve both enlarged responsibilities as well as enhanced spiritual capacities. That enhanced spiritual capacity to feel more. I don't know. Whatever that is. What Are your thoughts on that? [00:43:47] Speaker A: I think it's a good illustration. The only question I have about this framing of it is you're there for all eternity. Do you get to grow into that? Like you, you kind of showed up semi unprepared, like you're, you were. [00:43:59] Speaker B: That's interesting. [00:43:59] Speaker A: You were saved, but you had not spiritually invested. You kind of. This, this does introduce the idea that I've not always been a fan of, of kind of like sliding into heaven, that you're just crawling over the line. But there is a sense in which there's enough worldliness. There's enough that hasn't been separated from you over time, not enough to keep you out, but that, that you really weren't all in. You weren't all, you know, fully sacrificed, you know, all of those things. And so I think. But the, the question of can you grow into that while you're there? I would hope so. But I mean, all of this is speculatory anyway, so. Yeah, I can't give a firm answer on that. But I do like his illustration. I think it makes a lot of sense. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:38] Speaker C: Not a lot to add. I, I like that, that idea, man. That concept of growing into it more. Because, man, that has always been a struggle that I have is. And this is not to. To look down on other people, to be, you know, to judge harshly or anything like that. How many people sit in the church building on Sunday morning? Church of Christ building show up every time doors are open. And there's not a lot else that they have or even the people who don't show up regularly, but they're Christians and there's just not a lot of fruit in their life. And by not a lot, I mean maybe not none at all. Kids maybe aren't faithful. Maybe they're divorced. Maybe they're just don't serve the church at all. Maybe they just pretty much live like the world, except they are. They were baptized and they are, you know, they attend worship service. Like, what do you do with that? And that's the spot where I don't want to be in the place to say, well, you know, I'm not going to be seeing them in heaven. Like, of course I'm not going to say that. But also you have to man like to say that's going to be the exact same as the person who faithfully raised their children, was an elder in the church, served their congregation, was a part of a lot of domestic evangelism, whatever it is. Like those two are exactly the same. They're not the same. But that's always mentally what I struggle with is like, what's that going to look like in heaven? And to Jack's point, like, I don't have an answer. It's not. I'm not going to, you know, come down and say, well, the person who had all the bore all the fruit, they're going to, you know, be six levels up than the person who didn't. I don't know. But there's, there's a common sense element to this that I do think comes into play of like those two people are not the same. Those two people you would not think are going to have the same eternal reward. Salvation. Yes, but different levels of reward, which is exactly what we're getting to. Joe, what thoughts do you have on that? [00:46:19] Speaker B: I was thinking about that. Like if you store up for yourselves churches in him. Let's talk about the fruit of the spirit that you exhibit. So you have joy. You have some Christians that are incredibly joyful and you have others that really struggle with joy. Does the person in heaven, to Jack's point, like, do you get to grow into greater joy in heaven? Is it max joy for everybody or is the guy who really experienced the joy of Christ on earth, does he enter into heaven with a greater level of joy? And that is part of the experience. It's part of the fun that he gets to have. And part of the reward is like he really did appreciate Christ on earth and he appreciates Christ all the more up in heaven because he's been longing for it. The guy who's martyred, things like that, he's looking for a greater reward. Then the other question that comes into this is the various deeds of the flesh or struggles of the flesh that might come in, which would be, is it selfish to do these things based off of a reward based system? Okay, I know I'm saved, but I'm going to go out of my way to help that brother in Christ or to help that sister in Christ. I'm going to take you a meal because we talk about the star and the crown. Right. [00:47:25] Speaker C: And it's a selfish impulse. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Is there a selfish impulse that comes into this of like, I'm going to do these good deeds because I want that greater reward in heaven? Do you think that that could be taken to the selfish degree? And then the other part of it would be pride? So there's almost a. And then there could be envy. There could be jealousy or envy for somebody is, you know, the missionary who's out there baptizing 500 people in India or in Asia or whatever else. Like, man, I'm never going to be that. And I'm envious of what he's going to get. Like, I could see where human struggles might come into this, where we start having pride of, hey, I'm not. I'm better than that guy. We start having selfish impulses and being driven by the wrong things. We start having envy come in, jealousy come in. How do we navigate those? How do we take the human impulses of this theoretical, the spiritual idea and make sure that we're not chained to those things? What are your thoughts on it? [00:48:16] Speaker A: I think of Hebrews 12:2 of Jesus went through all of that stuff for the joy set before him. Like he had a goal in mind that he wanted to achieve and is one of the motivators for him going through all of that. And so the idea of ambition and wanting something, and I told you, Joe, about this of like, I view this objection kind of like the, the circular, contradictory nature of Buddhism. Well, the. When you reach nirvana, it's when you become free from desire. So you spend every waking minute trying, desiring to be free from desire. Like, how do you get there? Well, if you go, it's like, man, I'm just gonna go serve everybody. I'm gonna get as many people, brought them to Christ and all that, you know, just for me. And. And now there's a thousand people who were saved or who had stronger marriages or were brought back to Christ or whatever the case may be because of the work you did. Like, oops, oh, no, not that. And Paul talks about those who preach from selfish ambition, but that is for the pride, for the pats on the back if you are doing it out of service to others. That's what we referenced earlier. Jesus, the greatest of you will be your servant. The greatest servant is that guy is the missionary who goes and dies to have people saved and all that. And it just follows that there would be recognition for that, both from those people and from God himself. Shouldn't church be more. If you've ever driven home from a Sunday worship with that question on your heart and on your mind, Church Reset may be the book for you. In it, I explore how the church was meant to be a family carrying out a mission, and instead it has become a business aimed at attracting consumers and therefore lacks the power that God intended for it to have. Pick up a copy of Church reset [email protected] or on Amazon. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I really don't have a lot to add. I Think that's, I think you can get into, obviously. Joe, I think your point is this idea, this concept of levels of reward can, can kind of cause these mentalities. Maybe it can lead to comparison to a lot stronger. I guess what I would say is I feel like you could say, still get that even without the levels of reward of people choosing to, you know, go be missionaries because of the, the, you know, selfish ambition. Right. Like I, you know, get to kind of be front and center preachers. Of course you can have that problem or even like I feel like there's elements of that even without there being levels of reward. But I think your point is valid and one that needs to be considered like this does take that and multiply it by about 10 as far as the potential for those things. [00:50:42] Speaker B: So as we're getting into objections here, let me ask this. Does this put a. [00:50:46] Speaker C: It's your turn to go first, by the way, on the objection. You keep throwing it our way. [00:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah, hey, these are, these are legitimate objections, I think. I don't know that I have full answers to some of these. But like, does this lead toward there being a cap on. So for instance, the single guy who can go out and baptize 500 people, he by nature has the ability to reach higher than the homeschool mom, than the guy in the wheelchair, the deaf guy, the, you know, the, the guy that can't get out and go. He can't do those things. He can't really communicate, communicate with that many people. Man, the fact that he shows up to church is probably the best he's going to be able to do for the time being and try to develop a good relationship with God like he is kept. He is not going to be able at any point to reach that higher reward. Is that a problem? I don't know fully where I stand on this because though I agree with the concepts and the biblical concepts, what we're bringing in the biblical verses, it's difficult to say that. And does this point to favoritism on God's part that he is going to allow some people to have. And we talked about this off air, so I know you guys have some thoughts on this. But to have a greater chance to have a higher reward and then there's other people, it's like, man, you are going to be sliding to heaven because you just don't have it. Is the talents. Some he's given one, some he's given two, some he's given five. I don't disagree with that, that some people have greater Talents. And yes, that's money in the context, but you know, even talents like the skills that we have, things like that, other people are going to be born into different families, born into. [00:52:12] Speaker C: We're not given a bullshit slate at. [00:52:14] Speaker B: But my point is, is that fair? And does it point to favoritism on God's part for there to be some who naturally based off of the way their life has worked out? And if that's not, then should we choose, should there be people that choose to forego marriage so as to become missionaries so as to earn a greater reward? [00:52:33] Speaker C: I have a, I tend to have a problem with people who try to play the fair, fairness argument because if you're going to say that wouldn't be fair, then is it fair that I was born into a family with two very faithful Christian parents and, and somebody else was not? Is it fair that, you know, maybe somebody was taught the gospel and somebody was not? [00:52:52] Speaker A: Like, I feel like born in America, not Saudi Arabia. [00:52:55] Speaker C: Right. Like that's unfortunately. And I don't think it's favoritism. I think it's the way life works. Like, and just to find salvation, that, that's. [00:53:03] Speaker B: To find salvation, I'm fine with that. Right. [00:53:05] Speaker C: But it's. [00:53:05] Speaker A: The argument parallels. That's a more drastic contrast than rewards within salvation. [00:53:13] Speaker B: But I would say, okay, but the point still stands in which, yes, it's going to be harder for people. That's the way that it breaks down over generations and generations. Your parents happen to live there. You're born into that. Okay, I'm talking should the average guy in America, we're big on this, should he forego marriage so as to become a missionary to go baptize people so as to earn that greater reward, knowing you have more opportunity there than you do if you are just a faithful husband and father? [00:53:39] Speaker C: I think it's faithful. A little faithful and much in the idea, in the, in the idea of a homeschool mom, for example, is the one that you gave. Is she being, is she being faithful in everything that she has? Is she basically reaching her fullest potential of taking obviously raising her children in a manner that is pleasing to God, taking the opportunities that she has, not necessarily door knocking every day of her life or going to Asia for six months or something like that, but is she doing the most with what she's been given? If the answer is to that is yes, then I, that that to me would be. And this is, I guess, my arbitrary way of looking at it, but that's equivalent to the person who the, the bachelor guy that you brought up, his, his cap, so to speak, like his. What he's been entrusted with is he's got way more time to do those things and he's taking full advantage of that as well. And so that would be my answer is, you know, we're. We don't all. We're not all on an equal playing field as far as just again, the blank slate or, you know, some people have a higher iq, right? Some people have speaking talent. Some people have a photographic memory and they can memorize Bible verses way better than somebody else can. That's. That's part of. It's not favoritism on God's part. I think it's what. With what you've been given, what are you faithful with? Did you take your five talents and turn them into 10, or did you take your five talents and return back with five? So I know that doesn't directly answer the question, Joe, but I think that that has to be brought into to that concept because at the end of the day, we're not going to be given a blank slate. Jack, what would you add to that? Objection. I think it's a very valid one. [00:55:05] Speaker A: Well, when you go back to salvation is not earned. This all is a gift. It's very hard to get them. Like, I got this, you know, and the. [00:55:15] Speaker C: I didn't have the chance. [00:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah, the one talent, man who is given two is like, whoa, this is unbelievable. Like he couldn't handle 10. Like, he knows that that was not in his. And that I think Hebrews 13:17, where it talks about submitting to your spiritual leaders and like making it joyful for them. Don't make it a pain for them to serve you. He says they're going to give account for your souls. Let them do so with joy and not with grief. Well, if they're taking on the extra condemnation, the extra judgment, the same thing with James 3. One, let not many of you become teachers because it's a stricter judgment. If there's no upside for that of like, hey, you're going to get judged for yourself and all of these people under you, and then you're just going to end up in the same place. That's not cool either. I like, if somebody is an elder over me and they do all that hard work and they put in the time, I am fully on board to say, man, they should. Paul should absolutely have to use the crude metaphor, the bigger room than me in the mansion, things like that. I think anybody who gets in there with the envious spirit and goes, hey, I didn't have the chance. What would I have done with it if I did? I mean, I wasn't on that level. And I'm fully okay with what I did and who God made me and trying to make the most of who I am and the opportunities given to me and what he wants to do with that. I'm cool with it. I think that's the attitude we have to approach this with. [00:56:35] Speaker B: I think it's a. My answer to it is similar to Will's in the fact that it's faithful to what we've been placed in charge of. And you look at like Ephesians 2, 10, he puts good works, 2, 9 and 10, he puts good works in our paths to walk in and talks about not quenching the Spirit. And I think later in the. In the 4, verse 3, I want to say, or maybe that's not grieving the Holy Spirit, but either way, quench the Spirit, I think is 1st Thessalonians 5. But anyway, the idea of walking in the good deeds, that whatever those are, whatever been put in your path. Some people may have more in their path based off of. Yes. All of the things we're talking about down the generations. I'm a, you know, Christian in America, born to a Christian family. Yes. I have a higher starting point. What am I doing with the higher starting point? So it is, are you faithful to what you have been placed with? And if you are wholly faithful with whatever you are wholly given, then I think you have an opportunity to chase any, you know, any reward technically, like, it's not going to go well. That doesn't count as much. Like, good. Good for you. Like, you raised four faithful kids. That's great. But this guy baptized a thousand people. [00:57:40] Speaker C: Yeah, it doesn't work like that. [00:57:41] Speaker B: I think it's. Yeah, he was faithful to what he had. You were very faithful what you had. And through generations, though, four faithful kids. Jack, you referenced Jonathan Edwards earlier. I think Jonathan Edwards and his wife had generations of faithful kids, depending on how you look at it, you know, Christendom faithful, but like, they were. They were faithful children that should reflect well upon you in heaven. And I think that's perfectly within the realm of the homeschool mom to create that vision going forward. So we just don't know. And I think if you're faithful to what you have, even if that's to the guy that's blind and deaf and in a wheelchair and things like that. Okay, what is his threshold? Can he be faithful in those Areas. And is he doing with what he's been given? Doing the most with what he's been given. That, I think is where the reward is based off of. I don't think it's some arbitrary system of like. Well, technically a baptism counts for like, you know, 50 times. You showing up to church three points in this one. [00:58:31] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:58:31] Speaker B: Right. I don't think it works exactly that way. Other objections? What about the parable of the. Of the laborers in the vineyard in Matthew 20? So flipping over to Matthew 20 real fast, we're very familiar with this. The guy comes at the last hour, right? And okay, just to set it up. Kingdom of heaven. This is Matthew 20, verse one. It's like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. He agreed with the laborers for denarius for the day. He sent them into his vineyard. Okay? So they go out, summit, third hour, some at six. And then the 11th hour, guy comes in and hey, he gets to work. [00:59:06] Speaker C: Also received a denarius. [00:59:08] Speaker B: He received an arius. They all received the denarius. And then they come back and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, he was at the last. And they all received the same reward, even though some guys came in at the last. And some guys have been there working all day. Thoughts on this? Is there? I. I'll. I'll start on this one. Since I've been putting it to you guys. I would initially go right before this in Matthew 19. This is what it's based off of. Going back to Matthew 19, verse 27. And Peter said to him, behold, we have left everything and followed you. What then will there be for us? Jesus said to them, truly I say to you that you have followed me in, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, and you also shall sit upon 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for my name's sake will receive many times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last and last. First. There goes that concept again of last and first. And hey, Peter, don't rush out to just be the first guy there. Like, they'll be the last in the kingdom. But he does talk about, like, if you have given things up for him, you receive many times as much as this. You could talk about that just being the glories of heaven. We all get the same one. Those that are pointing to Matthew 20 would say, this proves that the laborers prove It I would look at it and say, I think this could be talking specifically about. Yeah, I don't like this answer fully. Could be talking about the Gentiles coming in at the last hour that they're going to receive. They get it just as much. But in the context of talking with Peter on the rewards, even going before this, you know, rich man entering the eye of an eagle. Easier for a rich man or the camera go through the eye of the needle than rich man enter the kingdom of God. Like there are various ways of getting into heaven and I think everybody's going to get into heaven. It seems like that's what he's talking about is yes, you will have that 27 through 30 of chapter 19 seem to indicate maybe there are levels. The first we last things like that. Hey, you're going to get to rule the 12 thrones. You know, he gets to be up there, Peter. And then those that are willing to leave that and be martyred pretty much for my name's sake are going to get even greater than that. And then he talks with labor. So it's almost seemed like juxtaposition, meaning we're misunderstanding one of them. Either they're both talking about no levels, there are no levels to reward, or they're both talking about there are levels of reward. They can't be obviously going against one another. I know I'm saying a lot to not say that much, but it is a, this is a conundrum for me and I was looking it up in all the research. I read tons of articles on this. I didn't really see anybody handle this particular one. So what are your guys thoughts on that? [01:01:38] Speaker C: The, the stuff that I found was primarily surrounding the idea of the Gentiles and the Jews. Because what we've kind of discussed the idea of the scripture war thing, like we, we can't say, well this verse is saying this and this verse saying this like one of them has to be correct and that's that. Joe, that kind of speaks to what you were just saying about like we're clearly misunderstanding one of them. If, if one is leaning is kind of indicates more levels of reward and the other one would seem to disprove it. Well, Jesus clearly was not contradicting himself. And so I mean you'd have to look at it in the context or in the light of all the other things that we brought brought up. And to me it just doesn't seem like it's enough evidence because there's an alternate explanation and that being the, the idea of The Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews were God's people from the start of. From all the way back to Abraham. They were in there from the. The starting hour. Gentiles came in and actually were going to come in. Acts, chapter 10. I know that hadn't happened yet, but I think that's a very possible explanation for this particular parable. And so that would then kind of realign with the idea of that there are levels of reward. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think this passage by itself is enough to just kind of discount all the other verses that we just looked at. Jack, what would you say? [01:02:53] Speaker A: Well, it's also with the rich young ruler. Jesus told him, give up everything. And he's like, yeah, no thanks. And Peter said, well, we did. So, so what do we get out of it? And I think there's this sense of like, yeah, you guys did. You've done the hard work. You followed me for three years. You're gonna go do all this stuff, and some of these very people are gonna come back around later who weren't here the whole time. And you can have that very exclusionary thing of like, hey, you weren't with us. We're. We're here at the front of the line. And if that's your attitude, that's not good. [01:03:18] Speaker C: It's like the people who get super upset when the band that they followed gets really famous. [01:03:24] Speaker B: Right, Right. [01:03:25] Speaker C: We, well, we were fans of them when they were, you know, playing to 400 people. It's like, good for you, buddy. Just be happy that everybody's now joined the party. And most of the time, those indie music fans are not right. They're, you know, the 21 pilots who I think of, like, everybody was out on 21 pilots once they got big. That's what kind of that. That concept reminds me of, which I think, once again, does tie into the Jew gentile dynamic. [01:03:45] Speaker B: And keep in mind, also after this, as I was looking down a little bit further right after this in verse 20, so resurrection, death, resurrection foretold in 17:19, in Matthew 20. And then verse 20, the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down, making a request of him, he asked, what do you wish? She said, command that in your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit on your right hand, one on your right hand, one on your left. So same concept. Hey, what do we get? What do we get? We followed you. What do we get? What are my sons going to get? Are you going to Give me this. And once again, he reiterates this idea of those who are first will be last. And so it seems he's combating more that concept of they, first off, think it's gonna be a physical kingdom. So let me, you know, let them. [01:04:22] Speaker C: It's the selfish impulse. [01:04:23] Speaker B: And second off, it's a selfish impulse of like, hey, I did all this, so give me mine, you know, and he's, whoa, wait, I'm going to give everybody a reward. And so the reward is going to. To be consistent throughout in the fact that you get to know me. And like you said, Jack. Yes. You've been following me. They're going to be people that weren't. They're going to come in at the 11th hour. They too, will receive their reward. They'll get to know. They'll get to know me. I don't think this is the. I don't think it's. He's trying to say that there's not going to be levels of reward in heaven in this particular one. I just don't think that's the context of specifically what he's trying to get across. [01:04:53] Speaker C: And again, if you think it is, then you do have to come up with an explanation for the other 12 verses that we looked at previously is. [01:04:59] Speaker A: What I would say and why they're on. You know, they're on thrones, but the reward is the same. Like, what are we talking about there? [01:05:04] Speaker B: All right, last one. Prodigal son. Prodigal son is he stays home. He is doing all those things. This, I think, is an easier one to work through, but he is doing all of those things. Prodigal goes away. He's the one that gets the feast when he comes back, he gets the fatted calf, he gets the robe, the ring, all this stuff. Whereas the older brother who was faithful, quote, unquote, like, he stayed in the father's house, he doesn't get those things. It's like, hey, just be happy for your brother that came in and got this. So there was no greater level of reward. Once again, I'd say that's not the context of, like, that's not really the point of that. The point is the older brother wasn't really recognizing that it's a blessing to be in the house for right now. But do you think there's any point to be made here that the older brother wasn't rewarded anymore for his faithfulness rather than the son who went astray? [01:05:49] Speaker C: I don't think so, because I think the point is kind of that the Older brother is the one that was not faithful. That the older brother is the problem here is I think the point of the parable because he's not grudgingly faithful. Yeah, well, because you consider the previous two parables that basically end with what was lost being found. And then this one, you get basically an entire second half for Jesus to make the point going all the way back to the start of Luke 15 of the Pharisees and scribes complaining that he was eating with tax collectors and sinners. And so Jesus to me, was speaking to. Not really at all. To me, I don't read hardly anything in there about like, oh man, this is a referendum on levels of punishment or anything like that, or levels of reward. The point of the parable, because that's the other thing that I do think is important for us to look at when we're discussing parables, is that anytime Jesus gave a parable, he was making a specific point. And we do need to be very careful when we're trying to derive other things from pretty clearly a specific something that's separate from the specific point that Jesus was making. And here the point that Jesus was making to me pretty clearly is basically the error of the older brother and the fact that he was not rejoicing at the idea that. And you could also take this to talk about the Gentiles as well, but specifically in context of. To the tax collection of sinners, those who would come to Christ after a life of sin. The older brother was the problem there. And so, yeah, I personally don't see this one as a very strong. I think the other one that you. Matthew 20 is a stronger argument opposing the levels of reward than this one is because I don't really think that's the point of what Jesus is getting at here. [01:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not necessarily an eternal life context anyway. I mean, you look at the start of the chapter and what he's trying to illustrate there, I think they'd be taking it in a different direction. [01:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, well, those are my. Those are things that I'd say against it. I'm sure we're going to have more into that. I would say make sure to get your comments in. [01:07:38] Speaker C: Cannot wait for these comments. [01:07:39] Speaker B: This is going to be an interesting deep end. I thought about leaving some things like, no, I think hopefully we have enough comments to really go off of this. This could be a. An interesting deep end to that point. If you're not part of Focus plus, as we always say, focuspress.org backslash++ make sure to join make sure to. And you get a bunch of other perks which are great as well. But we love to get your thoughts on this and for us to cover it in our extra segment, the Deep End. But fellas, any other things before we jump into our Think Fast for the week? Alrighty. Well, will go ahead and get us into the Think Fast. [01:08:11] Speaker C: Yeah. So we were talking about kind of what's going on right now. The biggest thing kind of in the church circles that we thought was worth discussing was about Phil Robertson passing away. The. He is of course well known for his work on Duck Dynasty. The TV show Duck Commander was the company that he started selling duck calls, of course. And man from about 2011 to. And I might have the dates wrong, but it felt like about 2011 to 2015, 2016. That show Duck Dynasty was the rage in the Church of Christ. It was a big deal because they were loosely quotes Church of Christ. And so everybody was super excited about that. Phil was pretty well known for. He got blasted by the media quite a bit for taking stands on homosexuality and a lot of other context stuff like that over a decade ago that he kind of got in the news for outside of the Church of Christ circles. But yeah, he passed away. I was very sad. He was struggling I think with a type of cancer and a blood disorder or something like that and passed away. A lot of debate going, going around because the, the reason I use quotes for Church of Christ earlier is that he was at a. He was an elder at a place that was referred to as Church of Christ allowed women speakers. I didn't do a ton of digging, but as far as I know they were okay with instruments. And so that's not really the point of this debate. What I kind of wanted to get to was guys, how careful should we be with this idea of Christian quote unquote entertainment? Because we've talked before about stuff like the Chosen which is still very popular. There's obviously the Kendrick Brother pure flicks type movies where great wholesome movies that are very God centered but denominational feel to them. And there's. There's a bunch of them. God is not Dead. Fireproof, Courageous, Facing the Giants. Those are pretty old now. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Angel Studios is popping them out like four a year. [01:10:06] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Overcomer. Like there's, there's a lot now you're right. War Room. Keep going. But what are Yalls thoughts on that? I guess my main question is like how wary of Christian Christendom entertainment should you be? Because I guess the fear would be you take somebody like A Duck Dynasty star. Maybe it's not Phil. Maybe it's Willie or Sadie the daughter, whoever it is, that, like, you can have these young people that kind of idolize them and, you know, don't seem to have everything nailed down fully. And you think about the Christian movies as well, that I just brought up, like, great movies that might have a wrong message in. Do you guys think it's better to just stay away from them altogether or. Typically, I know we are all spit out the bones people. As far as other things go. Are you. Do you include stuff like Duck Dynasty or Christian movies like that in the Spit out the Bones category? What would y' all say? [01:10:54] Speaker A: I think one of the great things about Duck Dynasty was that it was so much better entertainment value wise, than so much of that other stuff out there. It was not. It was very clear they were Christian. Every episode ended with a prayer. And it was one of the few prayers you would see on TV that was prayed in Jesus name. They were very clear about that. But the show was not. I mean, God's not dead. Those things are just so in your face. Yeah, well, the message is just not. It's not like good art. It's Christianity and then putting some art, you know, so putting some entertainment with it rather than entertainment that they are Christians while they do it. And I think that that's a really valuable thing. In the same way, he was a businessman. He didn't have to put a fish, you know, little logo on the thing to make it fish. But integrity and doing it right way and being open about your faith and using the success of the business to, you know, lead people into the Baptistry and things like that. That's the right way to do these things. And so I appreciate that a lot more than some of the more explicitly Christian cultural stuff. Obviously, if somebody's doing, like a Bible story, you know, that's a separate thing. But these movies where they're trying to make entertainment, but every time it just comes back down to, you know, shoving the gospel is the point of the story. And it's like, flat. Yeah, we can make stuff without just putting the Christian message right up front. Because you look at how, like, the other side does it, they just include it as a matter of course. When they put LGBT themes and things like that now they've gotten really bad about it where it is just shoved in your face. Nobody goes for that like, it's you. You have to just make it as part of it, as normal. Does that make sense? [01:12:31] Speaker C: That's a great point. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Makes perfect sense. I think it's. Yeah, that's a very, very good point that also comes to being an A E show. They had a bigger budget, you know, script writers, things like that that I think are. But it actually dovetails with our point last week about Joe Rogan of having Christians in these places that can then go out and, you know, talk about Christianity in a well spoken perspective. And well spoken is kind of goofy for, for Duck Dynasty. But on the other hand, like they did, they did. I think it's a. I like that point, Jack, of the point of that. And what you're trying to say is like, it's a normal part of life. We want to make it a normal part of life instead of, hey, here's a distinctly Christian thing. It's like, no, we're living life, we're having a good time, we're business owners, we're doing this. And yes, we're highly Christian. It makes Christianity, we talk about like the normal normative principle like that. That's the normal thing. It makes it feel more normal. Very much to your point, like the homosexual. So of course there's a gay character on there. Like, why not? Why wouldn't there be? Like, we want that with Christianity where it just dovetails with reality. [01:13:28] Speaker A: Of course the family praise. Yeah, of course we do. [01:13:31] Speaker B: Like, it's just natural. That's. Why would we not type of thing rather than. It's very Christian and nobody else really does this, but we're really Christians now. We're normal and we are Christian. [01:13:40] Speaker C: There's a genuineness to it that I think is kind of what I'm taking away from that comment, Joe. And that's, to be honest, that's why Phil and the rest of them were pretty appealing to a lot of people, is there was a genuineness to it did not feel forced, it did not feel fake where some of that other stuff does. And that's not for me personally, it's not to cast aspersions on some of those other movies and stuff like that. I think think it's a very noble thing that they're trying to do. Jack, I think your point is very well taken. That is the Duck Dynasty show seem to pull it off a lot better. And I think the genuineness of we are here living our lives and CR and Christianity and serving God is a huge part of that. As opposed to as you're, as you're kind of saying, like structuring everything around this one message that we're trying to get across. It just lands with people Better. And so, yeah, I thought that was. That's a good, very good point you make there. [01:14:25] Speaker B: We've also got to be able to spit out the bones, as you said, because on things like facing the Giants, it's health and wealth gospel. Everything goes well and then they lose the game. Oh, man, we lost the game. Oh, whoa, whoa. They were cheating. All right. We get to, you know, like. Yeah, sorry. Spoiler alert. For anybody that hasn't watched like a 20 year old movie but came out. [01:14:41] Speaker C: Like seven or something. [01:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah, Long time ago. But it's those type of things that kind of can be subtle for Christians if we're not paying attention to it. Sometimes it's the lie closest to the truth that does the most harmless. That's where we have to pay attention on these Christian things. It's like Prince of Egypt. They throw subtle things in and like, hey, they got a Christian movie. And all these kids would come in and we've talked about it before, but these kids would come into my mom's first grade class. That's not how it happened. When she's talking about Joseph. Like, absolutely, that's how it happened. Okay, so that's not just because Hollywood portrays it that way, but it's the lie closest to the truth. Yeah, a lot of biblical truth. A little bit that we threw in there. And that's the danger of something, in my opinion, like the Chosen, which is. [01:15:20] Speaker A: Sure. [01:15:20] Speaker B: Biblical truth. He's quoting straight scripture in some of it. And then there's a lot of it. [01:15:24] Speaker A: They would never take creative license. [01:15:26] Speaker B: Not at all. Yeah, so then there's. Yeah, exactly the creative license element to it that you just got to be very careful for. And we need to be discerning as Christians to pick up on the themes, the health and wealth, gospel, like in Face of the Giants, the subtle additions to scripture. Wow. You know, this is amazing. I didn't know that Joseph went out and. And played volleyball or, you know, weird stuff. It's like, what? I didn't know that was in there, you know. Yeah, I know it's not in there, but that's what I'm talking about is like weird stuff that get thrown in. And then you get kids coming to Bible class thinking that Joseph played volleyball. Like, what? So be careful on those things. [01:16:00] Speaker C: And the last thing I'll say is, you know, how many shows that I would so much prefer my kids watch Duck Dynasty over. Regardless of the, you know, the quibbles that people have with, with some of the stuff that they taught or whatever it is, like like, there's a lot of bad shows out there, man. There's a lot of entertainment options that are just horrendous and horrific. And so that, to me was the appeal of it as well. And I think a good legacy that was left is like very good, clean, family friendly entertainment, which I think is valuable. So my answer to my question would be spit out the bones with it. But I think it's perfectly fine. [01:16:32] Speaker A: One final thing is he held the line. He said, we're going to say Jesus's name. We're not going to do this, we're not going to do that, we're not going to curse, we're not going to. That's a great way for Christians to engage with the world. So a very good example on that part specifically. So that's going to wrap up our Think Fast. The rest of the podcast comes out on Monday. If you're catching the end of the podcast right here, right now on I've got to figure out how to stick the landing on these where I'm ending a podcast and a preview podcast at the same time. But you guys get the idea. The podcast topic on Monday is Levels of Heaven, Levels of Hell, so should be one to look out for. And if you're catching this at the end of the podcast, thanks for listening and we'll talk to you guys on the next one.