[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press, your co host Will Harrop, joined by Joe and Jack Wilke. We are, I wouldn't even say revisiting something that we discussed two or three years ago, but kind of continuing along a similar line of thought. I say two years ago. It's been three years ago now. It's kind of crazy considering when we started the podcast. But within the first several months of the Think Deeper podcast, back in 2022, we recorded an episode about the top five misused Bible verses. There were some, you know, common ones there.
Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Matthew 7:1, of course, very well known, don't judge. And we kind of counted down. Today we're doing something very similar, but focusing in specifically on quotes from Jesus, things that Jesus said that often get misused, that often get really misapplied to situations and sayings that Jesus had that are used to defend certain points or make certain points that just aren't really what Jesus meant by that. And so that's what we're focusing in on today. Again, somewhat of a, of a part two, a three year long part two. But I'm really looking forward to this one, guys. Just due to the fact that man, people, you think about Satan in Matthew 4 literally using scripture to tempt Jesus and to kind of get Jesus to stumble. And you see that a lot with specifically the words of Jesus is the way our society and church culture has turned Jesus into, as we've discussed time and time before, kind of this weak and wimpy figure who really just wanted everybody to love everybody and never really said anything harsh and, you know, never condemned anybody for their beliefs and has kind of turned into this mascot, if you will, for once again, the soft Christianity, the Christianity that never condemns or Christianity that never says that anybody's wrong. And so with that comes often misquotes or misuses of things that Jesus said, misapplications of things that Jesus said to make Jesus or make Christianity out to be, I don't know, a lot less intense than it is. And so I'm really looking forward to this one. What introductory thoughts would you guys have as we get into, once again, kind of these misquotes from Jesus? Misquotes or misapplications of Jesus quotes maybe is the best way to put it. Joe?
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, the reason we decided to go with Jesus is because Jack initially threw out the idea. So that's great. Let's Run with it. And I think three of the five you had initially sent over to us were Jesus quotes. So, man, let's just do the entirety of Jesus because, yeah, I mean, there's the I know the plans I have for you and things like that that are so ripped out of context so often.
But man, Jesus gets misquoted more often than not. And this is the.
I feel like the world. Because Jesus is obviously the central figure of everything and of Christianity.
They love to have their own take on Jesus and on his words. And if they can spin Jesus words, then they can spin the entire religion, the entire Christianity to what they want it to be. They're not taking Paul out of context as much as they take Jesus out of context. A lot of times they'll pin Paul and Jesus. Well, that's what Jesus said, not what Paul said, right? And so they use this. And I think twisting Jesus gets right at the heart of. They want Christianity to be what they want it to be. And yeah, you can twist Jeremiah 29:11, you can misunderstand other verses, but if you start messing with the words of Christ now we have something altogether different than what we began and what we started with. And so they allow, basically they create their own version of Christianity that has all sorts of loopholes for them to jump through, basically based off of them doing this. And so, you know, that can be harsh. Some of these are just misunderstandings, I think. Other times I genuinely think people are using it, almost weaponizing some of these things. So we're going to get into that. But Jack, what thoughts you got just.
[00:03:53] Speaker C: To build on what you guys are saying. Like, you see the people that want to cut off the Old Testament, right? And so you only got the New Testament. Then you see people cut off everything, you know, outside of the Gospels. People will say, well, Paul said that, but not Jesus. As if, like it wasn't inspired. Like Jesus wasn't on board with what was being said. And even at that, you'll see people cut Jesus's words down to the Sermon on the Mount, like that's the only thing he ever said. And so you end up just barely picking and choosing a little bit.
But this goes both ways because if we're all not careful, we can make Jesus in our own image. We can craft our own figure of Jesus. And so the legalists can make him look real hard line on that, but they don't see the grace side. But then the all grace people won't see that Jesus was really big on obedience and the heaven and positivity kind of side of things. Yeah, that's there in Jesus. But he also spoke about hell a lot. Well, the people, the hellfire and brimstone don't see that side of it. And so Jesus, we make him reflect us if we're not careful. And so you've got to go to these verses and say, what is he saying? How does it fit in the rest of the Bible? Because one of the things that's so annoying is like I said with the Sermon on the Mount thing, essentially they make it. Well, Jesus disagreed with everything else that happened in the Bible and contradicted it right here and changed it all.
No, what he said about turning the other cheek has to fit with David killing Goliath. Right. Has to fit with what he says. You know, the woes on the Pharisees.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Bending everything in the Old Testament.
[00:05:18] Speaker C: Yeah. And so you've got to get a complex full orbed picture of Jesus. And that's why we got to be careful with these things.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: I've got a quick question. I know we got to get into these verses, but I had this thought the other day and I was going to save it for the episode.
Curious to get your guys thoughts on this. Do you guys think that some of this twisting softening of Jesus and again kind of making him into this kind of mushy figure. Do you think some of that has to do with the way that we teach kids from childhood about Jesus? You see, and by that I mean you see the, the storybooks, the kids versions of Bibles and the kids, you know, Bible storybooks and things like that where once again Jesus is very much, it's all the, you know, and Jesus was loving and kind, like don't mishear me, but like that's the image of Jesus that kids get. Oh my, you know, this just this, you know, really nice guy who said let little children come to me and healed people. And that's obviously a side of Jesus. We don't teach kids the other sides of Jesus. Right. The Matthew 23 side of Jesus or the overturning tables in the temple side of Jesus. And so again I was sitting with my kids kind of reading through some of those Bible story, some of the books and it just kind of hit me like, yeah, you don't see the our God is a consuming fire stories. Right. You don't, you don't see sections like that about Jesus specifically. And so I didn't know what your thoughts you guys had on if maybe that is maybe not a huge factor, but part of a contributing factor. To why kids can hit adulthood. Or we can have so many adult Christians that really do have a kind of a warped view of Jesus.
[00:06:47] Speaker C: Your dad has a great point about the flood. You know, that it's. Oh, it's like a zoo story, and it's a kid's story. And we painted on the nursery wall, you know, all the animals, the giraffes, heads sticking out of the window, like, yeah, God killed maybe billions of people in this story. It's not a kid's story just because there's animals involved. And you're exactly right that the same thing can happen with Jesus.
You don't get a lot of. And, I mean, it would be weird if it were. If it were this way, but maybe we need to make it this way. Kid's Bible storybook of Jesus with the sword coming out of his mouth and his robe dipped in blood and he's trampling his enemies. You know, the revelation picture of Jesus, eyes on fire, you know. Yeah, like, that's. You're exactly right. That. That side of it just isn't there, in my opinion.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: It's because we can't let our kids grow up. I'm fine with starting with this loving version of Jesus. We want, you know, little children come unto me. Right. We want that as a young kid. That's great. I don't think I'm going to be, you know, talking to my kids about, whoa, to the scribes and Pharisees when they're four years old. On the other hand, we got to let our kids grow up, and we got to realize that there's a time and place, and it's not like, oh, at 18, we'll discuss those things. Whoa, whoa. We've already missed the boat. We have to start getting a fuller picture of Jesus as they grow and as they mature and they're starting to understand the world and they're asking things about what's going on with the news and wow. So. And so, you know, they're. They start to become aware of things like school shootings and terrible things.
That's a perfect opportunity to discuss some of the darker parts of the world and to discuss some of the harder parts of the Bible and some of the harder, more difficult passages with Jesus and, you know, scribes and Pharisees and, like, I think we have to let our kids grow up and start introducing these things at a much earlier age than we typically do. And then you get kids that end up going off to college and they're not used to those other things. They're not used to having to defend, even outside of Jesus. You know, things like slavery in the Bible and annihilating entire people groups like the Amorites and things like that. And when we don't let our kids grow up and have these tough conversations when we're not talking about the flood being a potential, you know, billions of people dying, then they get into college or they get into the real world where people are picking on those things and they don't have that faith. And so I think it's really important for us to see the entirety of it. Something my kids and I are. You know, what we're doing in the mornings is reading through the book of Acts. We read through the Book of Mark.
Now we're reading through the book of Acts. Probably should have been Luke and then Acts, but, you know, that's fine. And it's, it's going into the history of the church and it's like, I'm not sugarcoating things. I'll explain things as we go. Like, yeah, they were. Paul was stoned. They throw stones, huge rocks at him. What. You know, this is scripture, guys. We got to go through that, right? So that's. I think what we should be doing is instead of the action Bibles, instead of the kids Bibles, like, man, just read them straight scripture and explain it to them on their level as they go, but let them see the entirety of it. So, Will, I think that's a great point. Sorry to go off on that. I think that's a great point, though.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: No, I derailed us. So thank you for answering that. Humor me a little bit.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a worthwhile addition to what we're going to talk about here. So let's get into some of the verses we're going to Start in John 8, of course, is the woman caught in adultery.
And I mean, it's funny that, like the introductory, the people who don't know much about Christianity at all know, don't judge. The people who know a little bit more know this story, right? She's brought to adultery.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: No, it's dangerous type thing.
[00:09:52] Speaker C: Exactly. And so, of course, Jesus 8, 7 is what they quote. But when they persisted in asking him, he straightened up and said to them, he who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.
And so that, hey, let him who is without sin cast the first stone is another way of saying, do not judge of. Well, you're not perfect. So you can't say another person's actions are wrong or any of those Things and really that when we look at the outside world and a pride parade or things like that, well, hey, Christians, why are you casting the first stone?
That nobody can say anything is wrong is essentially the takeaway people have from the the woman caught an adultery story. But even at that, as we know, he ends with go and sin no more. But let's zero in on the don't you know you can't cast a stone without a sin? What is he saying there? And why does this not mean, hey, nobody can say anything ever?
[00:10:47] Speaker A: Well, and real fast. This is also a favorite of those that look at, well, Jesus, you know, in the old law, she'd had to be stoned, right? She'd had to be. And so Jesus comes in and he's already going against the old law. And so Jesus is breaking the law is what they're saying, the old law. But this is Jesus. This is the kind version of Jesus is he doesn't actually believe in the old law. Basically, like, he came to get rid of that. And yeah, fulfill, not abolish, but, you know, he came to basically get rid of the old law. And so Jesus is violating the commandments to stone an adulterous person. That's not what's taking place here. So historically speaking, of course, you'd have to have both of them there.
Woman caught in adultery, where's the guy? Why is he not brought in? Why are there not two people there that are now before the magistrate, now before the, you know, the leaders of the people go to the priests, whatever it may be. Why, why is that not the case? You bring one side of the party, but not the other. And so Jesus isn't violating the law. He's actually sticking close to the law of we can't stone one without having the other present, without there being both sides of that. So from a historical and accurate, you know, Old Testament point of view, I think that explains why Jesus is not fulfilling the law, quote unquote, in stoning her.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Well, the other thing is, keep in mind what the people who brought the woman to Jesus are trying to do.
Are they asking Jesus, hey, Jesus, do you condemn this? Like, is this wrong? No, that's not what they're doing. They're coming just literally the verse right before, in verse six, this they said, testing him, that they might have something of which to accuse him.
This was. A lot of people believe this might have been a completely manicured situation, that it was kind of set up for the woman. Regardless of whether or not that actually happened or not, they are coming To Jesus, not questioning Jesus. Do you condemn this? Do you also believe that this is wrong? They're saying again, they're testing him, putting him in the situation to say, should we stone her right now? Or do you disagree with the old law? And what Jesus does is he kind of sees right over that and addresses the deeper issue to me that that's why it's not really an equivalent situation to somebody. Like, if somebody was saying, hey, let's go to Pride Parade and start chucking rocks at people who are in pride parades. Like, no, nobody's saying that. But what we are doing is we are condemning that and saying that's wrong. And so I think it's a. That'd be the first thing that I would say is I think it's a false equivalency to equate us condemning a pride parade or us condemning somebody who chooses to abort their child or something like that with what the scribes and the Pharisees here are doing with this woman.
Once again, they're not coming to Jesus, saying, jesus, what are your thoughts on this?
That's not it at all. Instead, Jesus once again sees right over it and addresses the heart issue. And then, as the text says, they each kind of, one by one, beginning with the last, disappear, walk away, leaving both just Jesus and the woman. And Jesus tells her, as Jack already spoke, to go and sin no more. There was no question about whether or not the sin was condemned in the eyes of Jesus. He calls it a sin.
The only difference is he's, you know, we're not. She wasn't going to be stoned. And so that would be kind of the first thing that comes to mind for me. Jack, what about you?
[00:13:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the man wasn't there, like, all the factors that go into this being a total setup. But even at that where they say, well, you know, we all have sin, so who are we to say anything else? Okay, but can I quote Jesus? Because Jesus says adultery is wrong and he has the right to do it because he hasn't sinned. So he could, like. And you're right, we're not actually casting stones at somebody when we say, hey, that's wrong, that's a sin. We're quoting Jesus, who is sinless. We're quoting God's word. And so, like, the mental gymnastics. It's a very cute, you know, you can put a bow on it and you've got a nice little thing there to say, hey, you know, who are you to cast a stone? Are you without sin?
Yeah, I Know that that's a real easy one to pull. But it's stories like this where that is not what Jesus was saying at all, is, hey, Christians, don't ever say anybody did anything wrong. Like this was so mismanaged by them. It wasn't by the law, wasn't everything they did wrong.
It was not legitimate. And then there's another side of that, which just briefly is kind of an aside to this whole point.
It very much is an answer, a fool according to his folly kind of thing that Jesus was a master at of. You don't have to take every argument at face value as genuine and legitimate. When, when somebody's being a bad faith actor, act as such, like sidestep it. Don't, don't get caught up in their stupid games. People love playing these stupid games. And this is one of them. The, the, you know, don't cast a stone. That, that is a stupid game. Don't get caught up in it.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: What I love to ask these people with each of these is like, so tell me the context of that. Do you know what's going on there? No, they know the one verse of hey, don't cast a stone. Like, can you tell me the Context of John 8? Can you tell me what exactly is going on there? Can you go back to and for reference, just for everybody, Leviticus 20:10 had to look that up. And Deuteronomy 22:22 is what I'm talking about with both being present. So just for further study, anybody listening? Well, you want to ask these people that. It's, it is a bad faith argument and a gotcha moments. A lot of people become the Pharisees in this situation of that gotcha moment that they're trying with us. They're using the words of Jesus to go, yeah, gotcha. You can't throw a stone. You can't judge me. Everybody's against judgment. And most of the time, if I'm afraid of being judged, I got to step back and go, why, why am I afraid people might judge me? Just because people judge me doesn't necessarily make it wrong. But on the other hand, if I'm real squirrely about something, and if the first thought that I have is, don't, you can't cast a stone because you're a sinner too.
Maybe that's telling more about my heart, that I really don't feel good about this and I'm just really hoping you won't point that out.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Well, the other question I would want to ask him is, okay, so at what Point can you call something wrong? At what point? At what point can you metaphorically cast the first stone and say, that is wrong. I condemn it. This is the exact same thing that we had.
Joe, you missed the episode, missed your thoughts on it. The Chip and Joanna Gaines episode where, you know, Chip Gaines basically shouted every. Everybody down for condemning homosexuality. It's like, all right, Chip, at what point can we say something? I mean, the Bible's pretty crystal clear on it. At what point can we say it right?
[00:16:33] Speaker A: If they're pedophiles or.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: Right. What point Interesting is typically, this is only brought up under the guise of the culturally sensitive topics, the sociopolitical topics. Abortion, again, as I brought up homosexuals, transgenders, whatever it may be. Typically, that's the only time this is used again, Joe, the pedophiles are the really bad people. Nobody ever brings this up.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: You shouldn't have murdered that woman. Hey, hey, who are you? Who he is without sin.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Right, Exactly.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: No, but you don't hear that. So that would be the additional question that I'd want to ask is, all right, so fine, under that belief, at what point can somebody stand up and say, no, that is wrong. That is something that Christ does not approve of, that the Bible does not approve of.
Everybody has a line. Again, the only problem is these people's lines are if it might offend somebody who's on the other side of the line aisle politically or culturally than you, then, hey, don't cast the first stone. He is without sin. Cast first stone. That's typically where I see this one used.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah. What I'd say is, you know, just to wrap this point up before we get in the next one, I think you can tell those people there is grace. There is grace for sin. And go and sin no more is one of the most. Is one of the biggest parts of this passage.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: There's a repentance element there.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: You quoted this, and Jesus also said, go and sin no more. He recognized it was a sin, but there is grace. You're right. You're right. Jesus did not cast a stone, though that would have been against the law. He did not cast a stone. He does freely offer grace, but the way to get the grace is to go and sin no more. So we're going to call it a sin. We're going to say there is grace for this, but we're also going to call him to a higher standard and say, yes, there is a level of to receive that grace. If she had continued to commit adultery, at some point, both would have been called out and she would have been stoned. And so that is the key point we want to draw their mind back to is Jesus did call to sin, go and sin no more, and there's grace and there's a path forward, but you have to be willing to take it.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: A much neglected and almost completely unknown portion of church history is finally given the attention it deserves. Out of the Shadows Women of the Restoration Movement tells the story of the many women who helped the church grow during the 1800s and early 1900s. Whether through writing, teaching, adopting, encouraging, raising children, or supporting their husbands, these women impacted generations of faithful followers of God. Angela Mabe has produced a well researched, easy to read and extremely encouraging book showing that you don't have to be a preacher to be important in the church. Each chapter has a series of questions for reflection, to encourage ladies especially to look for ways to serve the Lord in the family, the community and the church, all while staying faithful to God's commands. Out of the Shadows Women of the Restoration Movement is available on Amazon.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: So Fells, let's get into the next one, which is Matthew 25:34 through 40.
I don't know if we want to read this one or if we just want to.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: Summarize in general. It's the one of Jesus talking about, you know, when he comes to the judgment, and I was hungry, you gave me something to eat, thirsty, gave me something to drink, naked and clothed me, all those things and lord, when did we do this to you? And he said the key verse that he says it twice, obviously to those who did and those who didn't. In verse 40, the king will answer and say to them, truly, I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me.
And then verse 45, then he will answer them, truly, I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: So as you can tell, you know, this is a great passage. Every one of them is a great passage. But this is a tough one when it comes to something like immigration. We're starting to see this more in a political realm, starting to see this with immigration. Did you do it? The least of these? Right. Great passage. But man, this can be twisted into making it whatever you want to make it specifically, as it regards to how we treat people, we want to treat people with love, we want to take care of people.
The key missing piece to this and will, I'll Let you go off on this. The key missing piece to this, I think, is that, did you do these to the brothers of mine? We can use this as though this is a, you know, Jesus is talking about immigrants and people coming in and are you doing it to the lease? And if you're not accepting all of the immigrants that are coming in and they're overrunning your town.
[00:20:36] Speaker C: It's not just the immigration thing. It's what we, we had on the episode a few weeks ago talking about that church in Wisconsin. We're gonna sell our building and give to the poor. And like, did you just diminish ourselves? And that's what the church exists for is right. You know, solving people's financial problems.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Right. That's what I was gonna say is this verse is typically used as a weapon to kind of put forth the idea that the church's main job is benevolence, that the church's that serving people and that, you know, you know, doing kind things for the community. And once again, just poor people or whoever, that's the main mission of the church. And again, there are, you know, cultural and political threads to this, of the anti Christian nationalism. People will point to this passage and say, see, this is what the church needs to be concerned itself with or needs to concern itself with not, you know, getting power or, you know, taking office or anything like that.
And so again, it's, you know, Joe's correct in the immigration context is brought up, but then also once again, just to kind of push the idea that the church's main job is benevolence. And I don't believe that scripture teaches that the New Testament church main job is benevolence specifically to those who are outside of the church. I mean, obviously you guys both brought it up in as much as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, then you did it to me. And that obviously dovetails very well with what we read in the New. In the rest of the New Testament, Galatians 6, doing good to all, but especially those who are of the household of faith, the way God set up the church and kind of one of the visions that God has, one of the designs that God has for his people is that they take care of each other. Is that they take care of the rest of God's people. And is that to say that we're unkind or we don't extend any charity or any benevolence, anybody who's outside? No, but it definitely means that we need to take a closer look whether it be congregationally, whether it be individually, whether it be societally, whatever about who are we aiming some of these good. I mean, these. Jesus tells us to do these things as you see, feeding people who are hungry, you know, giving people water who are thirsty, taking in strangers, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, visiting those who are in prison, like really good deeds, things that we need to be doing. Who's the target here? Who is Jesus? Who is. Who do we need to be aiming this at? I think so many people miss the boat and say, needs to be the homeless guy on the street, needs to be the. The people out there. Again, the immigrants, as you spoke to.
Can it apply to that? You know, maybe extend extending to that. But where does it have to. Where does it start? And who is Jesus specifically referring to there? He's not referring to the random homeless guy. He's not referring to random immigrants. He's referring to the least of these, my brethren, followers of God, those who are a part of the family of God is who we need to not be neglecting and using our lives in a selfish way instead of using our lives in a giving way. So, yeah, that would be kind of the. The overall gist of why that one is misused. Jack, any additional thoughts from you on this one?
[00:23:22] Speaker C: Just the context of it, if you go to the top, is he's going to gather the nations when he comes in his judgment, and the sheep in the right, the goats on the left, and all those things and separating the two. And to me, he's saying, look, I'm sending the apostles, the Christians out with the gospel, and your nations are going to be judged on how did you receive these of my brethren?
Like which the nations. And we're not talking about like nations as a whole. Like, you know, everybody in America goes to heaven. But no, just in general, hey, when the gospel comes to you, what do you do with it? And obviously Israel rejected it wholeheartedly, but others persecuted, others received it. And this is going to be the basis of what did you do to the least of these my brethren? He says, again, in the context of when the gospel has come to your nation, what did you do with them? And he's talking to the nations as they. And so he's not even talking to the Christians as to what did you do with the least of these. He's not telling the apostles, hey, did you guys go feed the poor? And of course that's a good thing to do. You know, they appoint the deacons to feed the poor among their own church. And doing Good to all, you know, especially the household of faith. It starts there. Like that's, you know, all of the things about being charitable. Yeah, they're there. But this idea that this is the purpose of Christianity and they talk about the least of these and it's all those categories you guys talked about, it's just wrong. It's this social justice gospel that. That's not at all what Jesus was talking about here.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: But there's also. When you get that right, there's also a weight to. It's the C.S. lewis quote, like, we're all little Christs. We're supposed to become little Christ. There's a weight to that. We are representing Christ to the nations. We are representing them as we go out. So we got to make sure we're representing him well. We got to make sure we're carrying the name of Christ. And this is the going out and shake the dust off your feet and, you know, recognize that you're going to have people that absolutely hate you and they will be judged for how they accept you in. I think that there is a level of, yeah, are we taking care of one another the same way? Are we showing up for our brethren? But I agree with you, Jack, that this is. Are the nations, as they go out, going to accept the little Christs that are walking around the Christians that are going and bearing the name of Christ? Now we know, and this is how Christianity spreads. We know that the apostles went to the lengths of the earth, maybe up to England and down to.
Or what is England now, but all the way up there over to India, down to Ethiopia. I mean, they went all over the place preaching the gospel and yeah, they were martyred for their faith. But in each of those places, we start to see the Gospel spread and spread and spread and spread. And so at some point, the nation starts turning more Christian and they do accept and they are doing it to the least of these. And I think that they will be. They will face a lesser punishment than those that flat out rejected. And for those, the initial ones that did persecute the Christians. So, yeah, I think the.
I don't have will. Anything else you'd add to that one?
[00:26:13] Speaker B: No, I'd say let's go ahead and move into the next one. I think that really good thoughts there. So the next one that we have is Mark 2:16. I'll read the full context, Jack, and then I'll kick it to you first to kind of discuss how this one gets misapplied.
Mark 2. I'll start in verse 15 now, it happened as he, Jesus, was dining in Levi's house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and his disciples. For there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to his disciples, how is it that he eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners? Verse 17. When Jesus heard it, he said to them, those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick, I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jack, again, I'll hand it to you here. How is this one often misapplied by the masses?
[00:27:02] Speaker C: It's very similar to the casting the first stone, one of the.
That Jesus just kind of welcomed everybody. He didn't stop anybody, didn't turn anybody away. And there's a degree that. And he gets us commercials. That kind of Christianity very much trades on this view of Jesus was okay with everybody. In fact, he liked the sinners more than the religious people will say things like that. And why was Jesus going to them?
What he told them is, hey, they're sick. They need a physician. They also know they're sick. That's why they want to be around Jesus. The Pharisees didn't know they were sick. That was the problem with the religious people is they didn't know they needed Jesus.
And, you know, and so, yeah, that is a risk when people think I'm the holier than thou thing. But they're using this charge to say, oh, you guys are all holier than thou and don't want to talk to. Or you want to persecute the LGBT people or whatever category of oppressed person that they're coming up with for these things and say, well, Jesus would have eaten with those people to a point. There's also a point at which he would have said, hey, you know, you got to repent. I'm here to help you stop being that kind of person. Not, boy, I sure love the drunks and the prostitutes. You know, that's. I'm going to go be one of, you know, that's my gang. That's not what he was doing.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: We don't get the context here of what was said at this dinner. You know, what had been said before had these people. You know, we had an interesting discussion in Bible class month ago or so about Zacchaeus and the debate of whether or not Zacchaeus was a good guy or a bad guy before. Of course, you know, Jesus came to his house and you know, he commits to restore anything he stole fourfold. And you know, to be honest, I had never considered the position that Zacchaeus was a great guy beforehand. I always kind of, you know, tax collector.
The text would indicate that he's cheated people before, but it's Jesus coming to his house that kind of initiate, kind of kick starts that know, repentance lifestyle.
But you know, and so very similarly here. And so again, that was just kind of the discussion we got into similarly here.
You know, were they catching Jesus on the front end of this, of this dinner as he just now had sat down with him? Had there been a similar to Zacchaeus, you know, a repentance that had already been kind of confessed and from these, a lot of these tax collectors and sinners. Because what's. What this contrasts with as well for me is First Corinthians 5 where Paul says, you know, for.
Lists those behaviors and then says not even to eat with such a person.
And who's the context there talking about somebody who would claim Christ, who would claim to be a Christian and yet is engaging in, I think the context of sexual immorality, says don't keep company with him, don't even eat with such a person.
This here in Mark chapter two is a very different context, is a very different setting than what Paul is referring to. In fact, it is more of an, obviously Based on verse 17, more of an evangelistic context. I didn't call, you know, I came to call sinners to repentance.
And so again, people can use this to, you know, friendship, evangelism and kind of we got a nice, nice them into the gospel.
We don't get to see what did Jesus already said to them again, what, what were the details and contents of the, of the gathering and dinner before the Pharisees approach him? It's pretty clear the, the objective of Jesus there was to call them to repentance. It was not to make them see like he's such a nice guy, man, he would, what a cool guy to be around, man, I want to go see what he's all about. No, it was to call them to repentance. And so that to me is the obvious takeaway from this. Joe, looks like you have a thought.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah, the contrast here is just the heart. My mind goes to Luke 18:9 and following with the Pharisee and the publican going and praying before and Jesus points to them and you know, is Jesus absolving the public and oh, he's a great guy. Don't Even worry about it, right? You know, he's fine. No, what stood out is, be gracious to me, a sinner. The guy's willing to recognize his own sin. And that I do need a Savior. I do need somebody who is going to take away these sins because I am a sinner. And so it's that self awareness and that ability to point out I am a sinner. And I need somebody greater than me. That's all Jesus is looking for, is, do you have the heart to recognize your own sinfulness as opposed to the Pharisee in that story. And even here in Mark 2 to, you know, that there's zero heart for that. I can save myself. I don't need that. As a matter of fact, I'm such a good person that I'm not hanging out with those people. I don't have nothing to do with those people. And so it is a matter of do I need Jesus to do not. That's a question for all of us. And I think you can spin stories like this or spin accounts like this into broader discussions on how we approach Jesus and the heart with which we have. Because if we're all willing to admit. And that's where we get into broken sinners. You know, the church is full of broken sinners. It's like, no, those people are the go and sin no more. That you were a broken sinner. I'm calling you out of that lifestyle. If Jesus was eating with these drunkards and with these tax collectors and the prostitutes and things like that, he has a great meal, you know, maybe even does a miracle. Who knows, right? Five loaves and two fish. Like, okay, maybe he does a miracle and he's feeding all of these people and it's incredible. And then they go back to their prostitution and then they go back to cheating people and tax cleaning.
That's not the purpose of that. It was, I need help. What can I do to get out of this?
What a great way to lead into a broader discussion on how we approach Jesus and the heart, that we approach.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: Him with the other side. For Christians, for practical application of this, yeah, we should be outside of our little bubble. There are people that look very different from us in the world today. And we shouldn't judge a book by its cover and think, well, they'll never want to hear the gospel. I mean, we all know people like that. You know, the tattooed people, people who came out of drug lifestyle people came out of LGBT lifestyle, people that have a history. And yeah, so you don't do that. But on the other hand, I'm not going to the pride parade. I'm not taking my kids around certain people. I'm not, you know, I'm very much shielding myself and my family from certain things where it's like who's the influencer and who's the influencee in these things? The influenced in these situations, Jesus was there influencing them, not the other way around. And you've got to be careful in a situation like that where you're so outnumbered or the purpose of the thing is celebrating the sin or whatever that you're not there as the influence.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: The most twisted way people can use this one and then whoever wants to move us into the next one, kids going to public school, you know, the idea that, you know, man, my Christian kid, you know, he needs to be in public school because he needs, he needs to be the shining light. And once again, you know, the Jesus, Jesus hung out with tax collectors and sinners and Jesus was calling them to repentance. Jack's exact point that he just made of typically where is the influence going? And that's painting with a broad brush. There are, I'm sure there are some Christian kids that can go into a situation like the public school system where they are just so heavily outnumbered. Not just with, you know, even in the Bible belt of not just people believe in God, it's people who are worldly, people who completely, you know, live for themselves. They're going to be very outnumbered.
Are there a couple that can maybe be a really positive influence?
[00:33:50] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Overall, who is the one influenced there? It's the Christian kid going into the lion's den in public school. So not to spin us into that discussion, but that is also another application of this that people will try to use or try misapplication, I should say that people try to use is, you know, my 16 year old going into public school because Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners and yeah, just a ridiculous way to use it, but who's getting us into the next one?
[00:34:18] Speaker C: Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. I wanted to tell you about our seminars at Focus Press. Each of us involved in the work have a series of lessons that we have prepared to encourage churches to help you understand the word better, how to navigate this culture. We cover a wide range of topics from things like evolution and apologetics to cultural issues to the family to the godly young men. Kind of content that Joe and will do to church reset, which is of course my passion to schedule one of us. Whether Dr. Brad Harab will harab Joe Wilke or me, Jack Wilke. Reach out to
[email protected] if you'd like to talk to me or if you'd like to talk to one of the others, I'll pass your information along to them. We'd love to come and encourage your church and put on one of our Focus Press seminars.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll get us into the next one's. Luke 14, verse 26. If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he. He cannot be my disciple. Jack, I'm going to tee you up on this one because you've done a lot of great writing on this. In an individualistic society, in the world that we live in, especially in modern America where everybody has individualized everything, they are hating father and mother, literally. We see the things that kids would have been stoned for back in the old law. That happens every single day.
What are your thoughts on this? And get us into this one. How this is misapplied and your thoughts on it.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: You can pair it with Mark 3. 35 and Matthew 12:50 parallel verses. But when they come to Jesus and say, hey, your mother and brothers are here. And he says, actually, my mother and brother and sisters are those who do the will of God, the will of my father, and very much this individualistic age where people are disowning their family, don't want anything to do with their family.
I saw this guy, he's a very big best selling Christian author, influencer guy, and he had a talk on family in the church, you know, like the family. And I thought, okay, well cool, let's see what he has to say. You know, that's usually guys like this don't touch on this. And immediately from the top he's like, yeah, you know, a lot of people these days don't talk to their family. So you're gonna find your family in the church. Like, hold on, hang on. Like that's, that's not a good thing. Jesus isn't saying, yeah, you know what? You don't really like your mom and dad, but that's okay. You can come into the church, like if your family disowns you.
And that's what the context of this hating father and mother is. If you have to choose between them and Jesus, you follow Jesus. But that doesn't mean you have no obligation to your parents. That doesn't mean that. Because later on the Pharisees have that where they say, well, we can't Help mom and dad, we give the money to God. And Jesus is like, what's wrong with you?
And I think that's more of what we're talking about here with people these days wanting to disown families. Like, well, sorry mom and dad, I've got my new family now. You still have an obligation there. And I think this rootless individualism, again, you can take words of Jesus and legitimize it, but that doesn't mean it's true.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: This is one of those things that I really do believe people will say stuff like this and not actually believe it. Like the idea, well, Jesus was pretty anti family. Jesus said, hate your father, mother. Okay, so you're telling me you actually believe that Jesus told you to literally hate your family?
Like again, I think it's one of those things that people can kind of slightly get the hide behind and really put out there. It's like you don't actually believe that. You see, you know, this type of thing often where people once again hide behind a take. And it's like, I really don't think you believe that take. And so similarly here, like you're, you're telling me that you really believe that Jesus was telling us to hate our family. And just as I brought up earlier to start the episode, this is where if you don't have a greater understanding of the rest of the Bible, specifically the rest of the New Testament and you just solely focus on Sermon on the Mount or what Jesus said, you can miss how much of the rest of the New. Just the New Testament addresses the duties and responsibilities we have to our families, husbands and wives and obviously towards kids and the Proverbs, not to mention the Old Testament patriarchs. And family is so incredibly important to God. And for us to just ignore that to, you know, come to right here and say, well, Jesus, I don't know, guys. Jesus said hate your family.
Once again, it just represents a complete misunderstanding of scripture. But what I wanted to do is address, well, okay, well what did Jesus mean then? And to do so you have to understand what had just taken place in the context of Luke chapter 14, where Jesus had given the parable of the Great Supper. Just briefly, I'll read it. A certain man gave a great supper, invited. Many sent his servant at suppertime to say to those who are invited, come for all things are now ready. But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, I bought a piece of ground and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused. Another said, I Have bought five yoke of oxen. I'm going to test them. I ask you to have me excused. Still another said, I have married a wife and therefore I cannot come.
And so, just to continue the parable, essentially all these people kind of reject the invitation based on what they have going on. And to wrap it up there, in verse 23, the master said to the servant, go out in the highways and hedges and compel them to come into, that my house may be filled. For I say to you that none of those men who are invited shall taste my supper. And then it immediately goes into that section of kind of leaving everything to follow Christ and, you know, not having anything that holds you back.
That's the context here of Jesus saying, hey, comparatively, your love for me when compared to your love for your family, should look. Should look like hate in a relative sense. He's not saying that you literally just disown your family, doesn't matter anymore. He's saying, hey, when it comes to following me, there is nothing that should stand in your way. No oxen that you've bought, no job that you have, no wife that you've taken. Nothing should stand in your way of following me. It's truly leaving all to follow Christ in a commitment level, not a literal level of walk away and abandon your family.
Once again, commitment level. And you need to be willing to go to these great links to follow me. That's the context. Literally, people who use this just go a few verses before.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Where my mind goes actually is first Peter three, a wife winning over her husband. Hate your husband. You know, if you want to follow Christ, you could just leave him. Basically. No, you can still follow Christ. You can still have that attitude where I'm going to give him my very best, but I'm going to do it in a way that hopefully wins over the husband that is disobedient to the word, as it says in 1st Peter 3:1. So same thing with parents. There's plenty of parents that have been converted based off of their kids staying in their lives, not actually physically hating them, and still choosing to show up to church and choosing to put up with the persecution they're getting. Choosing to put up with the, you're an idiot and this is wrong, and why are you doing this? And I'm going to try to stop you from going to church. And when they show that Jesus matters to them, that so often has converted people. And so it's a beautiful thing to see people that did put Christ first, but still love their families, still try to show up in their families and then end up getting that conversion down the line. And some people never do. And I understand that. But there's a lot of conversions that have taken place based off of people understanding it just means I choose Christ more. If you tell me I can't go to church, I'm still going to go to church. If you tell me I can't read my Bible, I'm still reading my Bible, I'm still going to do what God wants me to do. And it's that faith that brings the disobedient to the word people around, which is what we're told in First Peter three with the wife. And so it's a.
Yeah, I think we just completely misunderstand exactly what this passage is about. And it's such a cool thing to see. When people are willing to put Christ first and still love their families and still show up well in their families. It speaks well to Christianity rather than the people that become Christians and go, I have nothing to do with you. You're disobedient to the Word, therefore I've cut you out of my life. And I just can't deal with those people and everything else. Like, we're losing the opportunity to evangelize. We're losing the opportunity to have these difficult and tough discussions by showing them the love of Christ in the midst of us choosing Christ over them for sure.
[00:41:47] Speaker C: All right, let's move on to the last one because it's kind of a two parter and it's. It's like the first one in that it's like some people know the first one, but if you know a little bit more, you know the second one. So the first one is Matthew 18, verse 20, where two or three are gathered in my name. There I am with them. You know, you'll hear that quoted regarding church attendance. And then the other one is a little bit more complex of an argument. It goes back to Mark chapter two, and there's Jesus sparring with the Pharisees about the Sabbath and the disciples, of course, picking grains. And the Pharisees say, hey, they're breaking the law. And Jesus says, have you never read what David did when he was. This is Mark 2:25. Have you ever read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry? How he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar, the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priest priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him. Jesus said to them the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. So this one I posted on Substack a while ago, just a little note on there said, skipping Sunday worship for sports is a sin. And I'm tired of us pretending that it's not. And we just let people do it. It's like, oh, it's summertime. I guess we won't see these people for three months.
No, you don't get to do that. I've made that. I've pounded that drum before. The backlash I got. And I don't know who these people are, some. How many of them are members of the churches of Christ. Where, where these. It's. It's kind of an open forum. People can come from everywhere. People went nuts. And there was kind of a. So I posted about it again and people came at me again and like, no, it's fine. And this was a reference that came up multiple times.
Well, Jesus said that, you know, Sabbath is not made for man. Well, Sunday, you know, if I'm building up my family and I'm, you know, having a good time and being a good father, taking my son out to the ball field and I'm teaching him values and, you know, that God's pleased with that just as much as if I was in the church building. Like, I was really shocked to see this come out. I mean, I've heard the two or three gathered my name on forever. Well, we can go camping or we can go to the lake because there's two or three of us there. So Jesus is okay with it. I'll let one of you handle the context on that one. As far as the other one he was talking about, that, you know, they're made up traditions and, you know, sometimes there are trump cards. I'm sorry, Little Timmy's soccer game is not a trump card. Is not a. Hey, some, some things are more important. It's ridiculous.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: I'm sorry if you're equating this section with why it's okay to go to the baseball game at 10am Like, I'm not trying to be insulting.
You clearly have no intellectual capacity to understand the Bible.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: Well, they're just dishonestly. Make it say whatever I want.
[00:44:16] Speaker A: They want it.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah, one of those two. Because that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, Jack. And we talked about this kind of ahead of time, but I guess I'd never put it together that that was the, the main argument that people were making. To again, go to the soccer game or to be on the road traveling to the beach. Beach or something is to go here.
I'll be honest. That's. And I guess that's kind of what you're getting at. That's a far worse application than even the Matthew 18:21, because it's just.
Just the most ridiculous equivalency. Sorry, Joe, I cut in front of you. I just want to speak to the ridiculousness of that.
[00:44:46] Speaker A: It really is. It really is.
You see this where it's like, well, this is where I find God, right? I find God on the. As a matter of fact, there's a song that was just shared a couple church. Church members talking about. And it's a nice song with Morgan Wallen. I can't remember the main guy that does it. Will you and Larry Fleet. Larry Fleet. There you go. Where I find God. And I thought it was a nice song. But the problem is, this is where people talk about it. Like, you know, when I go out on the lake on Sunday morning, that's where I find God. And I just feel very close to God in that moment. And same thing with little Timmy. Like, it's also important for me to be a really good dad and to show up and teach him that, you know, he's important as well. It's like, okay, those things are important, but why does that take precedence over worshiping the almighty God?
[00:45:27] Speaker B: That's what I was saying.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: You can do that on a Saturday. Go find God on the lake.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. You can find God in those other places.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: Not at Sunday.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Not on Sunday morning.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: Should you be.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: And it always seems to compete. And it's like, well, you wanted to wash the car and you wanted to clean the garage and do all these things on Saturday and whoops, we didn't have time for the other things. We'll do it on Sunday. And then we're going to use scripture to try to back it up. Absolutely not. So, Jack, I'll speak real fast. The context of the other one, two or three gather in the name that's going to somebody over sin where he's not a church discipline. It's Matthew 18, church discipline of, okay, you go to your brother, then you take two, you know, then you go and take them before the congregation. But where two or three are gathered in my name, I'm there. So I'm seeing this. When you're taking two to three people to go confront a brother. I am with you in that moment. That is not a worship context of, you know, we all, hey, I'm at the lake and there's two of us here, and that's perfectly fine. My wife and I, that's two or three. And Jesus is there. Like, of course Jesus is there. The problem is you're not. You're not worshiping him in his house. You know, as we go there with all the saints, you are at this point, and this is where people really don't like going to Hebrews 10. Well, I'm not like, forsaking the assembly continually.
How many times we got to do it where we're choosing ourselves over choosing that. It's one thing for sickness, one thing for whatever it is.
But when we're traveling and when we're, you know, going to little Timmy's baseball game or going to the lake or whatever else it is, you, yeah, you are forsaking the assembling together. You are taking a time that should be for worship to God, using it for personal reasons, and then trying to point to verses like this to justify that. So, once again, so many of these, I think, speak to guilty consciences that we really, really want to try to get around, and we're going to find whatever scripture we can to justify where we want to be, and those things are good things. Again, spending time with your son and telling him these important and, you know, things like, that's great. He's not more important than God. That speaks to the last one. He's not more important than God. If you can't hate, quote, unquote, even your own kids and say God is more important, that's what we're going to do. Like, the hate is not actual hate. It's, I'm choosing God over your baseball game, Timmy. Sorry. And not really sorry. We're pointing to God and saying, this is the most important thing in our lives with each of these. Like, we have such an opportunity for a great discussion if we can just get the theology right surrounding these things.
[00:47:39] Speaker C: Yeah, that's.
I just. I grow frustrated that, again, people learn Bible verses to find ways to find loopholes.
Man, you're. You're looking at the Bible for the wrong reason. If you're looking for ways to. You know what? I decided what I'm going to do and let me flip this open and see. Oh, see, Jesus didn't care that, you know, that they worshiped it. Like, hey, you know what they did on the Sabbath? They went to the synagogue like that. Every time.
The idea that Jesus was like, you know what, guys? We don't actually need to go. Let's go pick grain in the field. Like, no, they were doing it on their way somewhere. But I mean they were always in the synagogue, they were always doing those things. These were religiously minded people who kept everything, you know, Jesus was not trying to get away with stuff. And that really bothers me about this is that's kind of the tone that comes out of it. So that being the case, any other thoughts to have here before we wrap up?
[00:48:32] Speaker B: I would just encourage everybody, man, as you're studying, as you're specifically looking at the words of Jesus or really anywhere else, do your best to not practice eisegesis.
The idea of you are coming to the text with a preconceived notion, with a behavior that you want to defend, with a belief that you want to defend.
Go to the text, go to the words of Jesus looking for a way that the text can support your position.
That's not the way to study, read or interpret the Bible. The way to study, read or interpret the Bible is to practice the opposite, obviously exegesis. You go to the text, you pull out of the, you draw out of the text. What is the text saying? That's where I'm going to form my opinion, I think. And this is not to condemn people. We all do this to some extent. You know, I'm sure I've been guilty of this before of like, man, I've got a point I want to make. Where can I go in the Bible to kind of support my point here? And so again, that's not to necessarily condemn everybody who does it. I think some people do it a little bit more maliciously than others. But that's all I would say is do everything that you can specifically with Jesus. Don't take him out of context. Don't just have a point that you want to defend. I can go worship wherever I can. Go to the baseball game on Sunday morning, or hate your family, whatever it is, whatever socio political point that you're trying to make, man, don't go to the Bible or the words of Jesus with that point in your head, man, and going, how can I take this verse, this section and twist it to. To get, get it to say what I want it to say. That is not at all the way that the complete manipulation and warping of scripture that it was never intended to do. So go to the text, draw out of the text what the text is saying and build your beliefs and your kind of thoughts based off of that.
That'd be my closing thought there.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: That's, that's great. Yeah, great thoughts.
The only thing I'll say, my closing thoughts I'll say this and give you Jack is. I've said it multiple times throughout. With each of these is just a deeper conversation ready to be had. When somebody says that that somebody uses against. It's important to just kind of call it out gently. You don't have to be a jerk about it. Call it out and be forthcoming of. I don't think that's what that means. And here's why. You know. But that's a great point. Let's talk about that. And we invite them into a deeper understanding. Most people may not be ready for that deep understanding. They're throwing it out as a platitude. They want you to just kind of shut up about it. See, I quoted Jesus. Invite them into a deeper discussion of what. What does that mean? Let's talk about that. Let's open the text, whatever it may be. As much as they're willing to do that. And if they're not, then it goes to Jack's point of they don't want to have a legitimate conversation. This was a gotcha moment. And they're not really willing to sit down and explore what exactly is being said there. And with each of these getting the context right, there's a great lesson to be learned in all of these that would be very relevant to the things that they're talking about. So use this as an opportunity to grow closer to them or at least to kind of show them the better way is what I'd say.
[00:51:19] Speaker C: Yep. I in full agreement. I don't really have much to add. On top of that, there are a number of other ones. There's some kind of deeper religious ones we could have gotten into. We talked about. And so we might push that to another episode of Jesus not coming to abolish, but to fulfill. And some of the ones the Calvinists like to use about, you know, nobody taking anybody from his hand and things like that. So maybe we'll circle back on a bit of a deeper one at a later date. But for now, there's kind of an endless list of misused Bible verses. Obviously, as we said, this was the second time we did an episode. Not even the only ones from Jesus. We had done some from Jesus before.
It's something we have to be careful about and we're not. Nobody's above it. That's something you have to realize is man. I could accidentally find scripture to justify the kind of person I want to be like takes humility. It takes prayer. It takes studying together as part of it. And as we just said, not coming to it going. Alright well I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. Let me find a Bible verse that says why it's okay.
Really look into the context and get those things straight. So we're gonna wrap right there.
Appreciate it. As always, join us in the deep end. I'm interested to see what comments we get, any additions. If you guys have any verses that you'd like us to cover as well, leave the the comments there. FocusPress.org/ to join us in the deep end of course leave your comments, YouTube, Facebook or wherever else you find us. We'll talk to you guys on the next.
Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.
