REWIND: Toxic Feminism

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here to intro another rewind episode. Last week we did Masculinity Matters. That was the first in a series we did back in 2022. So we're just continuing right on with that this week with Toxic Feminism. We kind of branded that off of the toxic. Masculinity was a thing you heard a lot in that time, and then you still hear that term from time to time. And we wanted to turn that around and say, actually, feminism has a toxicity we need to talk about. So that's the episode we have for you on this week's rewind. Hopefully we're getting closer back to our comeback date. But in the meantime, we've got these rewind episodes we have for those of you in focus. Plus we are doing some brief deep end segments, so keep an eye out for those. And of course, Godly Young Men continues on as always. And my Church Reset podcast goes on as always. So if you're looking for more content, check those out. But in the meantime, here is another episode of Think Deeper. Toxic Feminism Foreign. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Let's go ahead and get into today's episode. So what we want to get into with today's episode is, as we discussed last week, it's kind of a direct continuation from the previous episode. We're spending four weeks, basically an entire month devoted to the idea of gender, the idea of how has God designed males, how has God designed females? How badly has culture and society twisted those and perverted those? So if you didn't catch last week's episode, it dealt with masculinity, masculinity from a biblical perspective. Kind of once again, how culture, how society has taken the stereotypes of what it means to be a man and just taken them to their extremes. And so we reigned that in a little bit and took a look at what does it mean to be a man from a biblical perspective. That was last week's episode. So this week, again, kind of a direct continuation. But we want to look at the other side of the coin. We want to look at what does it mean, biblically speaking, to be a female, obviously, culture and society. Just like with the males, they have their own idea, they have their own view of what it means to be a woman. And so that's a lot of what we're going to cover today. We're going to look at feminism, radical feminism, how much that has obviously infiltrated not just homes, families, but also the church, how it's infiltrated young people's minds and really just taken us so far away from what the Bible teaches about what it means to be a woman, a female, a mother. And so we're going to get into, you know, kind of the history of feminism, how far it's come, you know, where it's taken us. We're going to get into how has that affected, again, young boys, young females with, you know, the way that they view themselves, the way that they view their roles, the way that they view their goals, their vision for the future. And we're going to get into how that's affected the church. Obviously, a lot of negative things have come about that from the church. But really what we want to get into mainly with this episode is once again looking at God's word, looking at the Bible, what does God have to say? How did God originally design it? Just like we looked at with the males, you know, what does it mean to be a male man biblically? What does it mean to be a woman biblically? What are the roles that God has specifically set in place and designed for women? And what are the great things about that? You know, that's what we spent a lot of time looking at last week with the males. What's great to be a man today, we want to get into from a biblical perspective, what's great about being a woman? How has culture, how has society twisted it and perverted it? Let's get back to God's Word and let's get back to what that says. Now, before we do that, we have to state the obvious. We are three guys here that are going to be discussing that. We understand that. We understand that that, you know, might come across as well. What do they know? They're just three guys. Please understand, we are very conscientious of that, but we're just wanting to look at God's word. Obviously, we don't think you have to be of the same gender to look at God's word and determine what does his word have to say about that gender. And so we want. That's what we're going to do today. Open up the Bible, open up God's word and determine how has he designed women specifically for this episode, Their roles, their characteristics, etc. So to get started, as I already kind of went into, we want to look at the feminist movement, we want to look at the radical feminist movement, and once again, just see how badly that has perverted our view of women. Jack, I'll kick it to you as you kind of spent some time going, or at least jotting down some thoughts about what we would call the four waves of feminism. So why don't you get into that for us? [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's important to look at because as you said, it has influenced so many things. I mean, there's just kind of a mainstream view of gender relations, and then of course, there's a Christianized version of it. But it's as I bring up a lot of the time, does a fish know when it's wet? And do we realize how much we've been discipled by the culture? And so these ideas are out there. The other thing is, in the masculinity episode, I brought up the Mott and Bailey fallacy where you put forth a very controversial idea and an uncontroversial idea. And when people argue with the controversial one, you pretend that they're arguing with the uncontroversial one. The uncontroversial is that men and women are equal. Right, right. We all agree that. We all agree that men and women are equal, that there's not more value in being a man or in a woman. But then there's all these controversial ideas that feminism introduced. And we're going to go through on this, this little run through of the waves of feminism, and every time you attack one of those, it's viewed as an attack on men and women being equal. Again, it's a total logical fallacy, but it's a very, very effective tactic because a lot of times people don't see the difference between the two. And so the four waves of feminism, the first one really started pre Civil War, and it came to a head in the 19th Amendment being passed in the early 20th century. Of course, women's suffrage, women being given the vote. But that was the main thrust of it was women's voting rights. A little bit about property rights and things like that, but more participation in society outside of the home under this, in this time period, especially towards the end of it, birth control, Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood, things like that came along. And so you could see the seeds developing of something bigger, something maybe a little more disagreeable, more nefarious in certain way, you know, especially what Planned Parenthood has become and Margaret Sanger and her writings and all of the things like that. And so that was already boiling under in the first. And people can look and say, well, what's just. What's wrong with the movement to get women the vote? And yeah, you can get into that debate, but really, I mean, one of the main effects of it is that it split the household vote. Right. Husbands and wives, you know, could be separate, voters could go in separate directions. And so you're starting to see the seeds being planted. Then, of course, the second wave kind of began in the 60s, came back around to say, enough hasn't been done. And a number of names came out of it. Gloria Steinem, who I'll quote here in a minute, there was a book called the Feminine Mystique, I believe it was Betty Frieden. And she had a quote in there. She talked about the problem that has no name. And the problem is, as I'll just read from what she said, the systemic sexism that taught women that their place was in the home, and if they were unhappy as housewives, it was only because they were broken and perverse. It was just the idea of, we've got to get out of. Out of the home, out of the kitchen, out of the 1950s stereotype women, because that's not our place. And we're meant for more. We're meant for something bigger. And we've been oppressed by being, you know, locked in our homes, essentially was the picture they were trying to paint. And so as I brought up, Gloria Steinem said women have two choices. Either she's a feminist or she's a masochist. You know, she. She likes taking the abuse, she likes being put upon and oppressed in all these ways, or she's with us. And then another time she said, now we know that, say, women can do what men can do. Most folks would agree with that, but we don't know that men could do what women can do. And so she's already establishing this war of the sexes kind of thing. And. And that women can do everything a man can and everything a woman can, but men are limited, therefore, women are better than men. And. And you can see this war starting to. To really break out and come to a head. And of course, the crowning point of the second wave of feminism was Roe vs Wade, abortion, birth control, all that leveled the playing field that women could go out in society and engage, you know, in sexual sin in the same way men could fall into. But now there's. They could eliminate all the consequences that came with being a woman. So that was the second wave. The third wave kind of 80s and 90s was a little more unclear, but there's a lot of influence on race and bringing in women of all races. It had very much been a white women's movement to that point. The term intersectionality, which influences so much of what we're seeing with critical race theory, came about in this third wave. And again, it was a little hard to define, but the idea of being a girl, girl power and kind of that youthful exuberance, the extended adolescence we're seeing in men channeled into women who are expected to achieve and to dominate. And then, of course, the fourth wave is ongoing, and so we don't really know until we can look back and see what it is. But of course, me too, the. The sexual assault movement, which had some valid points, but of course also had its downsides and going too far and believe all women. And so a lot of people thrown under the bus that maybe didn't deserve it. And so it had its good and it's bad, but it's resulted in the first female vice president. But it's also resulted in things like more girls in college than boys. By far, they are higher achievers in society. The integration of things like the Boy Scouts, where all male spaces, things for men and men exclusive things, don't exist anymore because it's full participation in society for better and or for worse. And so all of this has led to a different world. And as I said, we need to understand rather, you know, as a fish learning that it's wet, learning how all of this has influenced us, learning how much of this we have accepted as natural and maybe even come to the defense of. Or just already, you know, we are on the side of that. Because, man, you start having these conversations, it gets really uncomfortable. Well, of course we can't say that, because don't you mean women aren't. Women are equal? Aren't you in favor of that again, that Mott and Bailey kind of thing? And so it has created the climate that we live in. We need to understand how we got here. [00:10:33] Speaker C: When you think of equality, you speak of equality, obviously we're talking in value. We are equal. What would you say to those who say, well, if we're equal, then shouldn't we have equal rights and everything? Equal representation, equal equal pay, all of the equality things that come along with equality, Right? What would you guys say to maybe those who are listening going, well, was this a bad thing that women got the right to vote? It's equal. Is it a bad thing that there's Powerpuff Girls right, where there's girl power, the 90s, and is that a bad thing, that we're empowering our little girls? We're gonna get into the biblical side of it. But just as an initial reaction to that, in speaking of the equality of women and meaning there should be equality across the board, what would you say to that? [00:11:21] Speaker B: I think the. Go ahead, Jack. [00:11:23] Speaker A: I'm Sorry, I was gonna save the equality question because I wanted to get, before we got to that, to. We've talked a lot about how it's affected society. And, you know, we didn't even get into the gender and confusion that came out of it. The gender confusion, the transgenderism, the things we're seeing. The birth rate is below replacement levels. I mean, we live in a society with a lot of mental health issues. Correlation is not causation, but that might be part of it. And so there's that. But then also how it is has affected the church and see the effects of it, and then come back to that question about equality, because it's an important question, but I think it's the central question we have to get at here. And I kind of want to make sure we've established all of the things we've gotten to first. [00:12:02] Speaker B: Well, and before. Joe, I'll kick it to you here in just a second about kind of the mental health aspect of this, because I know that's your wheelhouse. But it's so interesting, Jack, as you kind of. Just briefly. I say briefly, not super brief. Outlined that those four waves of feminism. It's interesting to me, you know, from my interactions with a lot of people within the church. There are a lot of females and males, I'm sure, that agree with a lot of the feminist movement. And yet I wonder how many of those that do, you know, kind of buy into some of these aspects of feminism, truly understand that a lot of these truly awful things that have come about in the last, you know, 70, 80 years, the planned Parenthoods, the obviously Roe v. Wade and abortion being legalized in 1973. I wonder how many of those people who buy into a lot of feminism understand that feminism was the foundation for these awful things like Roe v. Like abortion being legalized and Planned Parenthood and things like that. I mean, when you lay it out, and obviously when you study history, it's obvious that feminism is the foundation is the cornerstone for these things. And yet. And so my question, I guess, is, why is it, do you think that we have so many people that either don't understand that or they'll want to buy into the other aspects of feminism without realizing that you take those things to their logical conclusion. It's no surprise that we legalized abortion. It's no surprise that Planned Parenthood rakes in millions, if not billions of dollars every single year. It was just interesting to me when you brought that up, that a lot of people, I would imagine, are not as familiar with that as they should be. [00:13:38] Speaker A: I'm going to jump ahead of Joe's answer here just for a second. I think on a very broad principle, and this is a very good specific application of it, Christians need to learn to judge things by their fruit. And if the fruit of something is 70 million dead babies is a divorce rate, that's through the roof, is, you know, all of these things that have happened, the free love movement and sexual STDs, I mean, just the statistics of all that, all of these things have come out of these movements. And again, you look at the founders, you look at the influencers of this, this is what they wanted, this is what they advocated, the liberation of all these things. And you look at the fruits and you can look back and you go, well, you know, we'll pick and choose some of the. Well, hold on now. This, this is not bearing good fruit. Why are we defending this tree? Why are we standing with this tree? [00:14:24] Speaker C: It's because we don't know what tree it is, right? What we go, well, can we be sure that that's the fruit from feminism? How do we know that's not the fruit from patriarchy? Like they're trying to tell us? And to that I'd answer, well, were these things issues in the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1600s, you had here and there cases, but not that it was. [00:14:41] Speaker A: In a utopia then either, because man's always been sinful. But. [00:14:44] Speaker C: Right, right. And I'm not saying that, but the divorce rate being, I mean, 50 plus percent, all of the issues that have come with it really have started when women started pursuing their own rights. I think that's what you got to get into is what's a basic right. We're not saying women shouldn't have the right to vote necessarily, but we're saying when you get into, well, she's got the right to choose her body, she's got the, the right to choose what gender she wants. You start. It's a slippery slope on the right front of what they're allowed to do. But I was making this point off air. It's interesting to me as we think about this history, as we're pointing out this history, Jack, you spoke to kind of the radical nature of the women back then. We look at it now and go, man, it's just been so radicalized. I don't think so. I think the very beginning, the little. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Seed, feminism in general. [00:15:33] Speaker C: Feminism in general. Talking about feminism in general as you're talking, the fruit, like when this thing was a seedling, when this was not even a tree that had any fruit to bear. It was driven by radical women that would. They really necessarily disagree with anything that's going on today. From the very beginning, over a hundred years ago till now. I think most of the women at that time, as you read their stuff, Jack, you had, you had quotes from people of that time period. You look at Margaret Singer, you look at people like that. If they saw where the world was today and how far women's rights have come again, that rights being kind of the. What does that actually mean? But if you see how far that's progressed, has it changed all that much from the very beginning? And so that's interesting to me. You can look at the way that politics have shifted. You can look at the way that a number of social issues have shifted. This one to me hasn't shifted. From the beginning, they knew exactly what they were doing. The destruction of the home, the liberation of the woman coming up through society. And yes, I think as you think about the toll on society, it's hard not to think about how this is driving people toward transgenderism. Well, why is it good to be. If they were disgruntled in their God given role and said this isn't good, doesn't that put us, put it in the minds of people that, well, maybe it's okay for me to be disgruntled in my God given role as a man or as a woman and if. [00:16:50] Speaker A: I can, a man, if all the women around him are achieving and complimented and praised and all that, and he thinks, well, it's better to be a woman. [00:16:58] Speaker C: Right, exactly. Because those things apparently can change and you can kind of be whatever you want and that's your right. So what's come of that? I think gender confusion, I think transgenderism, I think the mental health side of it, speaking to that, yeah, horrible mental health. On the one hand, you have the victimization, which we shouldn't be victims. I don't think it's good to view ourselves as victims. There are victims in the world, no doubt. But that's why we talk about trauma survivors and such is keeping a victimhood mentality. This is, it's not healthy. And I think a lot of women sometimes have that victim mentality if they've been put upon the patriarchy and everything else. I just think that's a very negative way to look at it mental health wise. But even on the, on the flip side, if I can do anything, there's no boundaries there either. So mental health wise have really hurt a lot of Young girls and also a lot of, a lot of young boys who are caught in the middle of this. Go, man, I don't know. I don't know what I need to be. Right. [00:17:55] Speaker B: Well, Joe, how does discontentment play into mental health? I would imagine, as somebody who's not received in the field, the more, the more discontented you are, the, the less mentally healthy you're going to be. And that's what we see with the feminist movement, is that women, females, young girls are being told, don't be content with, you know, staying in the home. Don't be content with taking care of your family. Don't be content. Strive for more. Do this, do that. Again from you're the expert when it comes to mental health, how does discontentment play into that? [00:18:24] Speaker C: It's horrible because it's, it leads back to discontentment. Ultimately, can, can kind of go back to self esteem, go back to am I enough? Right. And so it creates this, this kind of paradox, I guess, of they have this idea of I am enough and I can achieve anything, but then when they actually do start to achieve, there's discontentment. They're discontent before they start to achieve it. Now, we know the numbers are not good for women in the workplace being content with their jobs. There are, you know, for sure there are some, but there are plenty of women who aren't. They run into that wholeheartedly. They put the family on hold, on the back burner because they're told that you'll be discontent if you start a family early. So they run from discontentment. They run right into a job that works some long, hard hours that, you know, they come home late. They're not content in that either because that's not what they were intended for either. And so there's this discontentment. While it pushes them into higher rates of suicide and the higher rates of depression, into anxiety, Women are by and large on, you know, most women you run across are on antidepressants. And that's not a. Well, that's a crazy statistic. No, like legitimately, look it up. There are millions of women on antidepressants because why culture's telling them basically be discontent. So, yeah, I think it pushes them into a lot of mental health issues where they can't just say, I'm happy where I am and that's okay. No, you got to achieve more. You got to do better. Okay, now you're into the workplace. Now you're, you're working a low level job. Well, you moved up. Good for you. Well, now you need to move up again until you hit that boss, in which case there's always going to be somebody above you until this is why they want, I think the presidency and they want every high power. And it's like there, that will always come with challenges and there will always be somebody who is keeping you down, quote unquote. Which is, speaks to the victimhood, the whole thing, mental health wise, the whole thing's terrible. Between the discontentment, between the victimhood, between the over inflated ego and the narcissism. I don't really see a whole lot of healthy aspects of feminism on a mental health, from a mental health standpoint. [00:20:22] Speaker A: Well, and you mentioned the antidepressant use and the birth control use. I remember my wife has talked about this and my sisters have talked about this. Doctor visits and they say, well, are you taking birth control or let's get you on this one. No, no, I'm, I'm not sexually active. I'm not married. Oh, come on. Yeah, sure, Wink, wink, huh? And so like that's not good for your mental health either, you know, just. And your values not being protected because you know, we've got these scoundrel men that we talked about last time and I mean just this whole dynamic is wrecked and we've talked about the telos issue of you're designed for a certain thing. You're not going to be happy as you could be if you're not fulfilling that design. And so what is the design? That's what we need to get to on our Bible section. But you mentioned that we have adopted all this. It's very interesting as I studied the history of it, that second wave, the Gloria Steinem 60s and 70s, there was a very good job done to brand them as off putting as these women don't shave or shower. These women don't take care of themselves. These women are nasty, they're just unlikable. Right? And so the PR was not good. And so when that third wave came back around and, and they replayed it and they really focused on little girls, your daughters, you know, we empower your daughters. Girl power. You go girl. And all that stuff, that, that's where it really started to sink in more of and be adopted more by Christian families. You know, that, that ugly version. I mean Satan's very good at this. Oh, oh, you didn't like that? That was too much for you. You. Here, let me give you a version. [00:21:57] Speaker B: You brand it into something more attractive, right? [00:21:59] Speaker A: And so now you've had over the last basically my lifetime a steady March toward more and more pulpits being fulfilled by women, more and more, you know, church leadership roles like that. The idea, we brought this up last time, that the most feedback, negative feedback, most angry feedback we get at Focus Press is when someone, especially Dr. Brad Harab, writes on raising your daughters differently than your sons. And he's written about, you know, girls in college and that the college campus is not a great place for girls. And not that he's saying you can't get your daughter educated. Keep him stupid or anything like that, but think through what you're doing and the debt that you're accumulating and what you're. What are you really working towards? And what is her goal in life? Climbing the ladder and things like that. And. And this idea of the strong, empowered woman and girl power, all these. These phrases and slogans have seeped into people's minds so much that, man, they get so angry when he says, raise them differently. View them, you know, put them on different paths because they're designed for different things. And, man, again, we have hook, line, and sinker. [00:23:06] Speaker C: You can tell an argument is bad when everything that comes against that argument, they have to take it to the furthest extreme. It's the same thing with the Jordan Peterson, right? He starts talking about that. Well, so you're saying. So you're saying women aren't as good. That's not at all what I'm saying. There's no nuance to the discussion. That's what they do with bread, is. Oh, so you're saying girls are stupid, girls shouldn't go to college. You know, girls. The girls. Because they can't do that or because there's different roles. You're saying they aren't valued as much. They take it to the. They swing the pendulum to the exact opposite side. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Well, but. [00:23:34] Speaker C: And this is. [00:23:35] Speaker A: This is why I bring up the Motten Bailey thing, is because you have to recognize this tactic so you see it in action. So Brad says, hey, think about raising your daughters differently than you. You know, encourage your daughters to be wives and mothers. And that. That's a good thing. That's a beautiful goal to work towards. That's something that God has placed, you know, for women in this world and, and, you know, encourage them toward that end. And what. So you're saying this, and, you know, that women aren't equal, that women are dumber than men, and all of these ridiculous things that he's not saying at all. But by attacking the more controversial positions or. Or by bringing them into the controversial view that all of a sudden, it's viewed as attack on the equality of women, on the, the value of women, on the intelligence of women. This, we're very, very well trained in executing this fallacy. And, and you have to see it. You have to, well, be able to see through and say what is actually being said here, rather than running to my defense of what I've always been. [00:24:31] Speaker C: Taught and pay attention to. You know, if anybody, I'm not on Twitter, but I even. You see these things everywhere, whether it's Twitter, whether it's TikTok, whether it's Reddit, wherever it may be, where it turns into an attack. Right. A personal attack. The ad hominem of, if we can't beat you in the discussion, we will run the opposite direction, which is exactly what you're talking about. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Or assassinate your character. [00:24:53] Speaker C: Or assassinate your character. Yeah, you're a bad guy. And it shuts people up really, really quickly. And so we can't have an honest dialogue about this. And that's what we're, again, what we're trying to accomplish today on the podcast is not, we're not attempting to be jerks. We're not attempting to do any of that. We're attempting to say, let's have an honest discussion about this where people are, I'm sure people will get offended. That's just a natural part of this discussion. Somebody is always looking to get offended. And I would say that speaks more to the victim side. This is what that breeds, is victimization of, oh, you're just trying to keep us down. Not at all. I'm trying to have an honest dialogue about whether, as you talked about, Jack, the fruits of this and what we can do to maybe get out of the negatives coming from feminism. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Well, and Jack, you preface this already, but I want to go ahead and get into some of the fruits of this that we're seeing within the church. Jack, you brought up a second ago how more and more pulpits, at least across the evangelical community certainly are being filled by women, women assuming higher leadership roles. But I want to get into, from the, you know, from the Church of Christ side of things. I mean, obviously, anybody that's listening, that's a member of the church crisis, I would hope, is not going to argue that we should be raising our daughters to start filling pulpits. However, what we do see is kind of that, that mindset that was just brought up a second ago, how we're still raising our daughters pretty much the same as we're raising our sons. Same goals, same visions, we're erasing, as we brought up last week, we're kind of trying to erase the fact that there are biological differences. We're wired differently. We're not raising them in that way that's even in the church. And so I want to kick it to you guys to ask the question from specifically the church. So take away the fact that the women filling the pulpits thing. How has this idea of feminism infiltrated the hearts and the minds of our ladies at our congregations, even our men, but specifically also our young ladies. How has this infiltrated the Church of Christ mindset when it comes to, again, you can do anything a guy can do, you know, with the exception of filling a pulpit. From the Church of Christ perspective, how would you answer that? [00:26:53] Speaker A: So you. I think everybody's familiar with. If you've been in churches long enough, you've been in enough churches. The church that is run by the certain elder's wife or the preacher's wife or the kind of the group of women. And I'm not, certainly not saying all churches are like this, but this is a thing that happens of women. Okay, well, we're not going to lead. We're not going to be elders. We're not going to be in the pulpit. But, boy, we're going to pull some strings. We're going to get the gossip chain going, and, boy, we're going to kind of put a campaign out against a preacher if we don't like him or, I mean, just these kinds of things. And so that's one version of it, again, with the girls and the things that we got to train them for. And just this view of, well, my daughter, she doesn't get to preach, she doesn't get to do all these things that the guys do. And so we got to find something comparable for her. And so let's start putting together things so that they can have things like this. It's not that there's something wrong with Ladies Day or whatever. Ladies Days or whatever, but this view that what the men have is the really good thing, and we've been denied that. So let's find a way to get that so that we can have the good thing, too, even while we're staying in our lane on this. And really, so there's feminism and a lot of Christians, we can pat ourselves on the back for saying we don't have women in pulpits, we don't do these things kind of like you're saying will. And so we haven't given over to that. What people don't realize is that complementarianism, which is kind of the dominant position of conservative churches, was a compromise position that came out, you know, really in the 70s and 80s. John Piper Wayne Grudem wrote a book on it. [00:28:24] Speaker C: Yeah, explain that. Explain complementarianism. For those that don't understand egalitarianism, like, that's. We use those terms, but not everybody. Yes. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Egalitarianism is equal roles, equal everything. You know, we're the same, essentially. And if you really keep teaching, you know, people that a Christian man and a Christian woman are the exact same thing, then, yeah, of course you're gonna end up with women in the pulpit. So complementarianism says, in the home, there's a submissive role for the wife. In the church, there's a submissive role for the wife. Outside of that, in society, in the workplace and everything else, you know, the woman rises to equality with her husband, and, you know, women are just the same as men outside of those two things. Whereas the historical view of the church, I mean, up until 1980, was really, I'm gonna say the bad word, patriarchy. That the. The man, you know, was. Was over the home, but also in society, in, you know, he was over the submission aspect. Right. That. That submission did not just extend to when you walk in the church building or when you're. It's time to decide who's where we're gonna go to dinner. You know, the things like that. And so what that means and the broader view of that, I think we'll get to more in our marriage episode. But this view that the role of the woman is that rather than we're just equal in every way, and so daughter should be raised to be, you know, with the same ambition and goals and design as the boys. And all of that comes out of complementarianism, which we think is being conservative when it's really holding to a very recent position. [00:30:02] Speaker C: Is it any surprise, though, that our culture majorly values the. The leadership, the speaking in public, the, you know, kind of what a man has, and not the tranquil and quiet lives none of us lead, that none of us have any. We. You know, it's difficult to just be quiet on anything. Think about how social media, right, Think about social media. Well, what's the status update? What's happening in your life today? We've gotten away from Facebook a lot, but Twitter is even worse. Every thought you're thinking gets posted on Twitter now. Every. Every cool little thing you want to do goes to TikTok. People want to be out in front. They want to be famous. They want to be known, they want to be seen. Because not being seen equals no value in this culture. And that goes for men and for women. We want to be seen. Matter of fact, it's taken over, I think. And there's a study done of everybody up in history basically in America wanted to be rich more than famous. And now we've flopped that and we flipped that it is. We would rather be famous than rich because we want to be seen. That equals people liking you or that equals clout and status. So when you get. You bring that into the church. Is it any wonder why a woman's role mainly being one of submission and again, quiet and tranquil and kind of taking a back seat, so to speak. That's how we view it, as taking a back seat. You're not as important, you're. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Because you're not going to talk about the beauty, I mean the power of behind the scenes work that women do. Like. [00:31:27] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:27] Speaker A: It is an incredible thing. But you're right, we don't value that. [00:31:32] Speaker C: So, you know, you take this to the home. Again, kind of keeping on what we're talking about of raising our daughters and sons to be the same. We raise them that unless you're doing something amazing, unless you're graduating college with, you know, a certain degree or whatever else that, well, you're just not, you're not as valued or it's. You're not as important. And so you really got to let yourself be known, let yourself be heard. Instead of recognizing that a man's job is to conquer out in the world. And again, we'll get into this, but a man's job is to conquer out in the world and a woman's job is to keep the home. To conquer in the home kind of. And I would maybe not use, even use the term conquer, but really to maintain the home. That's what we, that's what all of history has seen until we've started getting into more. And really Post World War II, women are out in the workplace and these things started looking at that history, these things started in maybe somewhat of a positive place or in a necessary place. Women had to go out and work while the guys were in the trenches in World War II, right. So the problem is you come home, women don't want to go back home. They've gotten that, that taste of it. Shortly after this though, you have the Rolling Stones singing about Mama's Little Helpers. I had referenced in volume and the Rise of that. And it's just interesting that society, sexual revolution, you Know, the free love and drugs and hippies of the 70s, even the, you know, the crazy amount of what people might call capitalism, but really chasing the Money in the 80s, this all started to rise out of women going into the workplace in the 50s. And again, not to go back to the fruit, but that's really what it seems like. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Well, and Joe, to go back to something you said a second ago, you think about just truly the glorification of it. You take hypothetically here, you take two sisters. One of them goes to college, graduates with a four year degree, gets a really high profile, high paying job right out of college. You have the other sister who decides to get married and has kids and stays home with them. Not just by culture, but even in some instances, unfortunately, by parents, by grandparents, by peers. Which one of those is more celebrated? Which one of those is more glorified? It's the one with the high profile paying job right out of college, rather than the one that chose to get married, have kids and stay at home with them. Again, that has infiltrated the church to the point where even parents, grandparents, you know, fellow members within our congregation. You take two sisters, which one gets more glorified, which one gets more celebrated? It's the one that, because, because we view success, because we have value in money, in power, rather than, as you, as we've discussed all along, taking care of the home, being a wife, being a mother. It's understandable. I don't want to say it's understandable. You see how so many women can start to be discontented. Look at all the shine that that one's getting, you know, and so I think that that's how we can show that, yes, while women are not taking the pulpits necessarily within the church of Christ, that's how feminism has, has infiltrated so many hearts and minds of women to the point where a woman who does get married at 20, 21 and chooses to have children to stay home with them is not near as celebrated as somebody who gets a law degree and starts a really high profile job out of college. [00:34:34] Speaker C: So, you know, we think about this value. We think about the value we place on what, on traveling, on education, on power and money and fame and all of those things. It comes back around to if a man chases power, if a man chases, you know, is intending to kind of move up in his company, I think that's a very good thing. If a woman does it, I think that's actually not a fantastic thing. It goes to our question, which I go back to at the beginning Jack and I want to get into this. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Right. I think now is the time. [00:35:05] Speaker C: There you go. [00:35:05] Speaker A: This is the question. And again, the Mott and Bailey. The thing that comes back to is, are the two sexes equal? Are men and women equal? And that's such a loaded question in that you have to ask, what do you mean by equal? Because when people ask that, your first answer is, of course. And then you've got your Mott and Bailey. Okay, well, if they're equal, then that means they need to be in the pulpit. That means they need to do this, they need to do all these other things. No, they are equal in that they're of the same value. And we talked in our misused verses, verses and verses. Again, why do I keep saying verses? [00:35:39] Speaker B: Do you say that when you preach? [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I must. Yeah. Bible verse. So, yeah, we talked in that episode about Galatians 3. 28. Neither male nor female. And that gets used to say, when you're baptized into Christ, there's no difference. There's no difference in role. There's no difference in anything. You just do the same thing, be the same person. And how. That's not what that verse means at all. And so when we say they're of. They're equal, it doesn't mean they all get to preach. It doesn't mean they get to do all the same things. It means they're the same value. That a woman is a soul before God who, for whom Jesus died. A man is a soul before God for whom Jesus died. That on the other hand, there's so much in the Bible, Old Testament and New about different roles, about different roles in the home, different roles in the church, different roles that you were created for. Different design, different temptations, different strengths. Different, different. It is unavoidable. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Well, and that's, that's the key that you just hit on, you know, equal representation. Sure. We're not here saying women shouldn't vote. Equal value. Of course, that's the point behind Galatians 3. [00:36:43] Speaker C: 28. [00:36:43] Speaker B: Equal roles and equality. As far as identical, absolutely not. Anybody who tries to argue that men and women are identical, characteristically, biologically, of course not. But we try to use that men and women are equal to basically say that there are, as we already discussed before, that there basically are no differences biologically, characteristically. And that's simply not the case. You take it from the example of two kids, me and my brother, for instance. Were we equal in the value of our parents or in our parents eyes? Of course, my parents, I would hope, didn't love my brother more than me or didn't love me more than my brother? [00:37:18] Speaker C: Sorry, Reese. [00:37:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Reece, I hope you're listening here. But we were not equal. We weren't the same. We didn't do the same things. We didn't have the same roles, the same interests, the same likes, etc. And that's two guys. Now, you take men and women. Of course we're not equal. Of course we're not the same. Of course we're not identical. If, if we were all designed to do the same job, as we discussed last episode, the same roles, then why did God create two genders? What was the point behind it? But as you go back to Genesis 2, he created a help meet for Adam. Adam was. Adam had, was incomplete without woman. Woman was, was designed, was created as a help meet for Adam. And so the question of what do you mean by equal? Equal representation. Sure. Equal value. Or at least in politics that is equal value. Of course, to me, that's where it's got to stop. But it's interesting to me how we get into the church's viewpoint today. And you brought up complementarianism about how we will kind of passively acknowledge that, yes, wives are supposed to submit to their husbands at home, but we'll also make the. We'll throw in the joke about, yeah, but women aren't really going to like this thing. So it's like we casually address it and casually acknowledge it, but we don't really ever hear sermons about it. We certainly don't really hear, you know, classes taught about it. Whenever a preacher or teacher throws it out there, you know, that, that women have different roles, that they're to be submissive in the home and in the church. It's almost like we're walking on eggshells, you know, trying to make sure, you know, say it as nicely as we possibly can without offending anybody. And then we move on really quickly. We don't dive any deeper into it. We don't elaborate on it because we don't want to offend anybody. That's, that's the issue that I see within the church about this question. [00:38:53] Speaker A: But the three of us are. We're not worried about being canceled because nobody cares what we say anyway. So we're just going to say it. That's our job. [00:39:01] Speaker C: Cancel us. And the 20 people who know who we are, we'll probably lose 10. No, five of them are our spouses and our parents. If I get canceled there, that's a problem. [00:39:11] Speaker A: But otherwise, when we talk about equality, it really is that idea of equal value. But on the other hand, when you look and you say, well, in church, a woman can't preach, but a man can. A woman can't be an elder, but a man can. You know, Jesus only chose male apostles despite. Yeah. You know, like, where he could have done otherwise. And in the home where the woman has to submit to the husband, you say, well, how is that equal in that sense? No. And so when somebody says, are men and women equal? Yes, but in certain ways, no. Because if God says, you're the head, and I mean, this is a point. This is not an obscure Bible point that is kind of confused and you could debate a little bit. He says it over and over. He says it in Ephesians 5, he says it in Titus 2. He says 1st Peter 3. He says it in 1st Corinthians 11 of God is the head of every man, the man is the head of the woman. And all these. He's pointing all the way back to Adam and Eve, because Adam was created first, then Eve. I mean, just repeatedly, First Timothy two. There's all of these passages that get into this. And so it's not an obscure thing. Every episode, I have to bring up something I wrote previously. We've kind of joked about that before. Right. I think one of the better things I ever wrote was one on this subject where I wrote, look, I've got a talent for it. I'm better than the guy that does it. Why would God keep me down? Why would God oppress me? Doesn't God want his people to serve him in this way? And why on earth would he say no? And it's so unloving to tell me that I can't serve him. And, oh, no, I'm not a woman in the 21st century. I'm a man from the tribe of Benjamin who wants to lead worship in the temple. Like, God has always told certain people, you're fine, I love you, you have great value. You're not allowed to do that. And so we make all these arguments today. Well, they've got the talent, and it's unloving to say that they can't fulfill these roles. And, you know, aren't they equal and all these things in some way? Yeah, but there are also different roles that are denied to some people. And God has done that before. And if he was. If he's being unloving now, then he was being unloving to all, to 11 of the tribes, except for the Levites. Right. And so with all that, let's get into what the Bible does say. That's. That's really what we want to leave all of these episodes with is not our opinion. Not just throwing these things out. All the opinions we've expressed and the things we've talked about, feminism and complementarianism and. And how it's infiltrated the home and the views that we have and. And how we are saturated in this culture. The answer to that is to go back to the Bible with an open mind. And having an open mind is hard. We. We all have biases. We've all been discipled and indoctrinated and. And. And given a bias on these things. We have to understand that. And so. [00:41:48] Speaker B: And we've been. We've been culturally trained. Once again, anytime these verses are brought up or anytime this point is brought up, we've been trained by the culture just to view that as an attack on women. To view that, as you brought up time and time again, Jack with the Mott and daily to view that as. Oh, so you're saying they aren't equal. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Rather than jumping to that so quickly again, take a look at scripture. Take a look. And as we're about to do. But take a look at. In your personal study, take a look at the way that God designed it. It's not, you know, we have to get out of this mindset of viewing it as an attack on women as saying that men and women, you know, or that men are superior and of more value than women. That's simply not the case. But it speaks to, as we've talked about, how much or how little we value the roles that God has designed for women. But let's get into that. So I'll kick it to you guys for the. For the first point here. When you talk about the Telos. Telos. How do you pronounce it? [00:42:38] Speaker A: Let's just make it up. Let's pretend like we know what we're saying. Yeah. [00:42:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:41] Speaker B: Telos. The idea of what's the design role? What's the design purpose of it? What is that for females? What's the first place we want to go to in scripture to get that? [00:42:49] Speaker C: That sounds like a. First off, sounds like a Disney villain. Talos. Second off, this is right up my alley. Since I've been. [00:42:57] Speaker A: Genesis 2 and 3. [00:42:57] Speaker C: Preach on Genesis 2 and 3. We're at 10 years now. No, that. This is why it's so important. This is why I love Genesis 2 and 3. You go back to the very beginning. This is the Genesis. Yes. Of men and women. What Is a woman designed for. Initially we looked at last week. The man is given purpose, he's given work, he's given law. And then God says, and I believe 2:18, it's not good for man to be alone. Then he sends Adam to name the animals. Adam recognizes I got nobody of like kind. And then in understanding that God, you know, caused deep sleep to fallen, Adam takes from his rib, it's often been said, didn't take from the head so as to rule over the man. Didn't take from the foot so as to trample on the woman. Took from the rib. They are equal in value. However, why was she created in the first place to be a help meet for Adam. Adam was created with all of these things in mind. And he said, you know what, intending the garden and in keeping the commands, he needs a woman to help him to, to, to be there for him, to be a help meet. And what that means is to help him while he's meeting his needs or while he's, while he's, you know, meeting, doing what he's doing and meeting his. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Needs, helping his, his mission and his purpose as well. [00:44:10] Speaker C: Exactly. His mission is purpose, which we talked about last week. Can't be the woman. It. He has to have a mission and purpose outside the home, which I think is to subdue and is to rule is kind of the idea of masculinity for the femininity. It's to help the man. Fellas, to me, we talk about this. This shouldn't be a difficult teaching. Unfortunately it is because I think it's, it's right there in scripture. But it's one of those that we can easily overlook. The funny thing is there, there are things that we believe specifically in the church of Christ that are far harder to get out of scripture than this is. But we don't really want to go here to say the woman was created to meet the man's needs from the very beginning for whatever reason. That's taboo. I don't really know. But here we are two chapters into the Bible already. And not only is that a, you know, this is part of the fall. No, no, no. This isn't post fall. This is pre fall. This was beautiful. This is what is intended to take place. A man is to leave his father and his mother and to take his wife. Right. The two shall become one flesh as he ends chapter two. Before the fall ever happens, we're establishing marriage and we're establishing the gen or the, the relationship between a man and a woman. [00:45:23] Speaker A: So the first thing of Course, that's going to come up in. This is Proverbs 31. Proverbs 31. Woman, she went. She, you know, was selling things, she was buying a piece of property, she was engaging in, you know, trade with people and, and things like that. And so that's always pushed to kind of the career woman mindset. The, the women and men have the exact same thing. And look, she went and did all these things and was blessed and all that. I think it's important to read that especially through cultural eyes. We read that through 21st century feminist eyes. We bring our cultural, you know, baggage to it, and we just see her as girl power, you know, the empowered woman, though, that we have of today, the feminist woman that we have today, when really all of that in that culture would be under her husband, the business that she did would be, you know, under submission to him. And so you have this question, can women work outside the home? I mean, you read Titus to be, you know, being workers at home, keepers at home, managers at the home, depending on your translation. The ideal for a woman, especially when there are children at home, is to have her work be in the home. That's. I mean, we live in this culture that is just choking us to death. Inflation, all that multiple income is, is something, you know, that, that people are having to find a way to do. And so when those things are there, yes, but she's still under the submission of her husband. She's still, you know, when she goes into the workplace, it is under his submission. It's, you know, it kind of. They make that decision together, but he has the final say on that. And so, you know, people really want to. I'm sure we'll say, well, you're saying women can't work outside the home. What's, you know, what, what are you really saying about this? I'm saying try to find a way to get around that. But, man, we understand the times are tough, you know, and that, I think, is what the Proverbs 31 woman was doing, was making sure her family had what they needed, supplementing the income that her husband was bringing in, you know, finding ways to, to help and keep them afloat and all those things. And that's the culture that we live in now is. That's necessary too. But the primary focus needs to be the home. [00:47:22] Speaker B: My, My wife is not a fan of jumping to Proverbs 31 because of the verse that says, she also rises while it is yet night, verse 15. She's not a fan of that one. Getting up early Is not her thing. No, but it speaks to. Also going back to a point from earlier, why the college route for females is typically one that in my opinion we need to be very careful of, is because if we gear up a woman or a young girl and say, go to college, get your degree, get your education. Oh, but when you get married, then you have to stay at home, then they're, you know, naturally going to say, what did I go to college for? [00:47:57] Speaker A: $100,000 worth of debt. [00:47:58] Speaker B: Yeah, right, exactly. And so for people like my dad and, you know, Dr. Brad Harriman, other people that will say, be careful with it because not, you know, never, ever, ever send your daughter to college, but make sure you understand the implications. The point behind it is we, we need to be training up our young women, we need to be training up our young girls to look up to this, this task of being a wife, to look up to this task of being a mother as something that is worthy of their calling, not something that lesser or inferior to once again, the girl that goes and gets the four year degree in the high profile job. You know, you look at Titus 2, as you've already brought up, Jack, I'd be interested to hear somebody try to debate, try to argue those very, that are that very divinely laid out role of a wife being a homemaker, being that being her primary task, that being her primary responsibility. Just as it is the man's primary responsibility to provide for the family to work out, to work outside the home, to make sure that their family's taken care of. From a biblical perspective, you look at Titus 2, 1st Peter 3, all these verses that we brought up, the woman's, the wife's primary responsibility is to take care of the home, is to manage the home, be a homemaker, that kind of thing. Go ahead. [00:49:11] Speaker A: I was going to say that has to mean something more than they both go to their separate workplaces 9 to 5, they live the same thing, and when they get home, she makes dinner, therefore she's, you know, keeping the home. That's kind of the interpretation we've slapped onto it. Where manager of the home, worker at home, the, the word that's translated there is like, that's her work, that's her job, that's her primary thing. In the Proverbs 31, Woman, again, everything that she does is to the benefit of her home, not herself. She's not building up a resume and all that stuff. She's keeping her kids fed and clothed and her husband and taking care of all these things to their Benefit. And so industriousness, work, learning, you know, doing all these things are hallmarks of a good godly woman. But the goals, the aims, the things are what have been jumbled up in our cultural baggage. And I think one of the things that it's important for us to circle back on. We kind of mentioned it earlier, but with. With the idea of when a woman says she's going to be a wife and a mother, that like, oh, wow, what's wrong with you? Are you stupid? You know, like, you couldn't cut it or whatever is kind of the implication there. We despise the household. We despise. I mean, our culture hates life, right? Our culture values money and power, not life. Not. Not children. I mean, you see how hated children are. You see, you know, that we don't have children. We put off having children. We complain about children. All the memes every summer about, you know, I can't wait to send my kids back to school and get them out of my hair. We hate kids. We just do. We need to own up to that as a culture. And, and so when that's the goal and the household and all that. And. And so then you have the wine mom thing of, I boy, my kids, I just got to get a break from, got to get away from them. They're. They're just the worst. And you know, all the complaining that's been popularized with social media. And, and we. So we view the households as a curse. We view staying home with the kids as a curse. We view it as. As being chained, which is what the feminists gave us. The second wave is that. That, you know, you're a masochist if you actually like this. And so there was a sermon that kind of went viral, this Baptist or Presbyterian, I don't know what denominational preacher, but he had said, men, when you get home from work, your wife has been working hard with the kids all day. She's worn out. Just go into the kitchen and do the dishes. I'm not against men doing the dishes. I do the dishes all the time. I mean, like, regularly I contribute in that way. I'm not against that. But the implication behind what he is saying is, yeah, you've been working hard all day too, dude, but you got to go have fun. You got to go out and make money and. And do that kind of stuff. Your wife's been stuck here put upon with these kids, and so you owe it to her, you know, like, well, he had a hard day, too. They both had a hard day. They should Be supporting each other. And it's. But it comes from this, this. This worldview that despises the home and views work in the home as essentially worthless. Worthless or lesser or undesirable. And it's really poisonous. [00:51:54] Speaker C: We also need to realize that a loving home. We've all walked into houses that are taken care of, that is full of warmth and love and a woman who puts everything into it, right? You immediately know the difference. It's. I don't even know how exactly we feel this, but we've walked into homes that are very cold, right? Almost sterile. Like, you can tell this is hardly used type of thing, right? And then you walk into somebody else's home and just. It's kind of like the. And there's a glow about it. When a woman takes care of her home, when she is taking care of the kids, when she's doing that. One of the things we need to do a better job of in the church is playing that up and saying how amazing that is. It's not just, hey, it's bad to go do what the man does. It's. No, this is something that has to be done. It needs to be done. It is a vital part of society for our homes to be strong internally, for our, for, you know, this to be a warm environment where the kids grow up loving life. They love to learn, they love to help other people. They're having it modeled for them day in and day out that, hey, we take care of what we need to, right? The mom does that. There's a. Because again, we can spend so much time talking about what a woman shouldn't do. I think sometimes when we say, well, a woman should be a keeper at home, it's like, well, what's the point? Because that's really the basis of a happy home, as the basis of society. I think a dad is the, the father is the head of that home. The father is all about the vision, where the family's going, the overall direction of the family. But I think the mom on the day to day, the rhythm she sets, the things that she does with the kids, I see my wife, she's so good at it, the rhythms that she sets. My boys know, hey, it's this time in the day and it's this time in the day and it helps adjust them. And she's, she's taking care of the discipline and she's making the meals and she's just. And so many women do this and they need to be praised for. They need, they need to be thanked for it they need to realize that a rich and loving and nurturing environment is vital to the working of the country itself, to the world. But don't even worry about that. It's vital to the working of your family. And so I want to praise the moms out there who do this, who do take Titus too seriously and do it. And even those that are working, those that come home and they take care of the families and they're putting their family first in all things. It's just. It's an incredible thing to be seen and in. [00:54:12] Speaker A: It's funny that that's not our takeaway of Proverbs 31. That's clearly what it is pushing towards is. Everything you just described is that vision you've just given us. That's what the Proverbs 31 woman does. And no, we didn't read it that way. We read she goes out and makes a lot of money because we value money, because we love money. [00:54:30] Speaker C: Even in Proverbs 31, her husband's in the gates, right? And she's making her husband look good. And then her husband is giving her that praise that man. You excel them all. There still is this, I guess, focus somewhat on the husband. Obviously it's about the woman, but there's a focus on the husband aspect of it, that she is under his headship. And this, a lot of it is to make him look good and to help him in the things that he does. We don't focus on that either. It's woman power. Girl power. Girl power. We read in to the text what we want to give, you know, what we want to put into the text, and that's just wrong. [00:55:01] Speaker A: Well, let's go into the biblical side of the qualities. Okay, we've talked about the roles a little bit, but the qualities and. And with the strengths and weaknesses that come along, you know, because that's something the Bible does as well. I mean, that Titus 2 we're referencing talks about the men do this, the. The women do that. Older women teach the young men or young, younger women this. There's this again idea that we've been pushing against in the last two weeks of that Christian men and Christian women, the more mature they are, that they're exactly the same. We're not. Testosterone still exists. Estrogen still exists. The wiring that we have is there for a reason. And it leads us to certain strengths and to certain weaknesses. And so with men, that. That male aggression that we have is good for building. It's good for going out and making something of the world. And building and all those things. It's good for protecting other people, for when there is a threat. That's what a man is there for, that he has those things. But the same thing that makes that when unchecked, becomes dominant, becomes uncaring, becomes harsh. It's pushing people out of the way. It's bullheaded, it's bad. So the two sides of the same coin depending on how you use it. The same happens with women that nurturing that loyalty, that love that they have that goes beyond what a man has. You know, we've had a couple children. We've got two more on the way any day now when they're first born. And you guys, I don't know how you guys were with this. I didn't relate to him at all, like, exactly it there. It's just a living, sleeping, crying, pooping being. But that's it. It takes a little while to where they can really interact with you. And it's like, oh, okay, you know, I really love this kid. But from minute one, you know, our wives, it's like they just. They have that quality that rushes in with that nurture that, you know, that God created them for. And that's a great thing. But the thing that can be good for them can also lead to the other direction, to, you know, gossip and busy bodies that Paul writes to Timothy about of like getting involved in other people's business because they want to fix, they want to help, they want to be invol. But it can go too far. And so there's that side of it. But then we've talked about Eve, We've talked about Genesis 3. The curse was usurpation was Eve's gonna want a desire for her husband. And so commonly interpreted as a desire for his power. She wants to lead. And that is what feminism has done, is let's do that. That's right. That's what we need. Let's start doing that. And you see these qualities come out. And I think that's what we want to talk about, is the ugliness of what has been pushed to young girls today. [00:57:26] Speaker B: So I want to jump to first Peter, chapter three real quick. We've talked about Titus 2 a lot, obviously, Proverbs 31. So one Peter, chapter three to me lays it out so beautifully when it comes to two contrasting verses where one of them is showing what the world values, whereas the other one is showing what God values. So First Peter, chapter three, verse three. Do not let your adornment be merely outward arranging the hair wearing Gold or putting on fine apparel, looking good, right? External beauty. That's what the world values. The verse immediately following verse four, rather, let it be the hidden person of the heart with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. Peter lays it out so clearly. The fact that the world society values external beauty, looking good, gold, fine apparel, all those things. That's not what God values. God values what we just read in verse four, the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit. And again, no bones about it, he says, which is very precious in the sight of God. We're not teaching young girls that to tell young females, to tell females in general, hey, a quiet, a submissive, a gentle spirit is precious in the sight of God. That's offensive. People take offense to that. How dare you say that, that type of thing. I don't know how familiar our audience is with Brie Larson. She's. She's an actress. She's in Marvel, Quite a few other things. But anyway, she's real big about, you know, the girl boss thing. You know, you go girl. Girl power. Girls take control. And again, that mindset has infiltrated us within the church so deeply that if somebody was to get up in a class and say, and teach young girls, hey, gentle, quiet, submissive, meek spirit is very precious in the sight of God. Which is straight scripture. I just read it, Moms, maybe even some dads. It would cause offense. People would be in an uproar about it. But it just goes to show how much our society has infiltrated us to the point that we don't teach verses like that anymore. We don't preach verses like that anymore. [00:59:23] Speaker A: We always add the caveat. But men do this, you know, and, well, you got to be submissive women, but, you know, make sure, you know, husbands be easy to submit to. Yeah, that's true. But that whole first Peter 3 passage is talking about, even when your husband stands stinks, the best thing you can do for him is to show him in honor and have this spirit about yourself. That's the way to win them over. [00:59:44] Speaker B: Yep, that's. [00:59:46] Speaker C: And this is why I think Ephesians 5 is such a big one. We talked about this last week. That's. There's a heavy emphasis on what a guy is supposed to do. Right? So we can talk about the women. Yes, women be submissive, but men make sure you love your husbands as Christ loves the church. [00:59:58] Speaker A: Love your wives. [01:00:00] Speaker B: Love your wives. [01:00:01] Speaker A: Husbands, love your wives. [01:00:02] Speaker C: What did I do? [01:00:03] Speaker B: You said husbands love your husband. [01:00:05] Speaker C: Did I really? [01:00:06] Speaker A: We are not advocating that. Let's just make that very clear. [01:00:09] Speaker C: Good call. Good call. Yes, That's. That's Ephesians. No, I'm not even gonna make that joke. So, no. Ephesians 5. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church, but women obviously submit to your husbands. I got that one right. There we go. Now, I gotta check everything that I say from from here on out, but. [01:00:31] Speaker A: Oh, we'll laugh at you and mock you. You' of course. [01:00:35] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I'm adverse to that, Jack. Yeah, Jack with his Bible versions to you doing that. [01:00:41] Speaker A: Hey, at least I don't say the Bible verses say men should get married. We're off the rails here. [01:00:48] Speaker B: We don't preach first Peter 3 is. [01:00:50] Speaker A: I think the point is. [01:00:51] Speaker C: That's the point. That is the point. Yes, we do preach Romans 1 just so everybody's aware with homosexuality. But as far as it goes with First Peter three, you don't hear sermons on it. We don't really want to come anywhere close to this passage, I think for this reason, because it puts so much of the emphasis on what the woman's role is supposed to be. And even as Jack, you just mentioned, you know, verses one and two here in the same way, you wives be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be one without a word by the behavior of their wives as they observe your chaste, respectful behavior. Now, this I've heard it say, obviously these are to non Christians. I've also heard it say to the Christian men who are disobedient to the Word who are not acting the way they're supposed to. I think it goes either way. I think if your husband's still not acting, this is. And this is a kind of a homeschool mom trope. But a lot of the dads, unfortunately, aren't always checked in on that. And the mom kind of swoops in and takes over and says, well, I need to be the spiritual leader. I need to do all this because if the man's not leading, my role, a la Deborah, right, is to step in and take that from him and kind of lead the way. That's not what I'm reading here in First Peter 3. That is a misunderstanding of Scripture. If we're going to point to Deborah and those that did it, that's not a good thing. When a woman takes over, I think this is clearly pointing to let her quiet and chase behavior goes Back to my point, we don't know what it means to be quiet in this culture. The meditation that's coming back around the idea of like, quiet time, turning off the cell phones and such, I actually think is a really good thing. We need to get back to valuing quiet, quiet people. Those who aren't first to speak aren't screaming from the rooftops about everything that they want the world to hear. We need to get back to valuing those people because I think that is the role of a woman. And there's a lot of value in that. There's a lot of goodness in that quiet and chaste behavior that can win people over. And we think, unless I'm screaming at them, there's no way I'll win them over. Unless I'm modeling for them the, you know, the leadership that I want them to take. Well, there's no way I'll win them over. That's not what scripture says. [01:02:54] Speaker A: So the proverbs speak heavily to all of this, you know, multiple times. It comes back around to the difficulty of living with a contentious woman, right? It's better to live in a corner of the roof. It's better to have a leaky house. It's better to all these miserable things than to be with a contentious woman. And so that's a part of it and allowed an obnoxious woman. And like, it comes back around to this over and over of like, women, as you were talking about earlier, the beauty of a woman who has made a dwelling place for her family and it's just a welcoming, loving figure versus this. And you brought up Brie Larson. There's a great YouTube channel called Charisma on Command. And it just kind of analyzes interviews and like, what likable people do that makes them likable, and what unlikable people do that makes them unlikable. And there's one on this actress, Brie Larson, and it is this girl boss feminism that she's always got to be competing with the men and telling them that she's better than them and. And just she can't take a joke, you know, because she's just got to put everybody around her down so that they know that she's in charge and she's the greatest. And she's, you know, I am woman, hear me roar kind of thing. And it's like, man, you are so obnoxious. Like, this is so off putting. And so you brought up first Peter 3, 3 and 4. Well, about the external adornment and, you know, kind of that and there is that in our society, immodesty and all that that women can be drawn to. But we are also seeing the ugliness as feminism progresses is that it just gets more and more externally ugly, both in word and in visual as well. You know, like there's kind of a stereotype of the extreme feminist of chopping off all their hair, dyeing it purple, piercings everywhere, you know, and just really off putting in their presentation, right? And they're yelling at people and they're in people's faces and screaming and all the ugliness that comes out of that. And then you read these proverbs about a contentious woman and a loud and obnoxious woman, and then you come back to quiet and submissive spirit. It's like, look at the fruits of these things. The fruit of that. The more it comes into its full form of becoming what it is being advocated to be, you can see the ugliness of it, the obnoxiousness of it. And the more you see women who work in the church and I mean, all of us have experiences with women, the older women in church who have taught the younger and who provide and, and who are building up and serving and just doing behind the scenes work that doesn't always get seen, how powerful that is, how far it goes. You look in Jesus ministry, yeah, he had the 12 apostles, but those that were there with him when he died were the women that were there. And those that were there at his resurrection were the women that were there. And people want to turn that into, see, women are preachers because they're, they're more loyal than men, they're better than men, they're what, Whatever. That's not what it's saying at all. What it's saying is there's great value to these women that were loyal to Jesus and contributed to him and cared about him and nourished and cared for him when others didn't. I preached yesterday on Mary washing his feet with the perfume and all that, like the, the beauty of that sacrifice. She didn't have to get up and preach a sermon. Sometimes it is those quiet and submissive and, and those, the, the less seen, the lesser, you know, things that we don't value, that have the most value. And you see the ugliness when we try and push it back so hard in the other direction. [01:06:09] Speaker C: We come back around to. Though I was thinking, you know, the parallel passage to First Peter 3 I would say is First Timothy 2, where he's talking about, you know, not through the braiding of hair and everything else, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. This is what we're all striving for, is godliness. Right. But really the woman's role is to make that claim to godliness. And would your actions fall in line with that? But he continues, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over man, but to remain quiet. Here's the interesting thing. What I think we want to move into before we start to wrap this up is where these roles come from. We've already talked about Adam and Eve, but he says in verse 13, 1st Timothy 2:13. For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. But the woman will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity, with self restraint. So to move into this, fellas, it seems, and this is used. I don't think it's just here, this is in other places as well, that one of the reasons women are. We know from the fall, women will desire the man. Right? She'll desire her husband's position. Basically, men we talked about last week will want to shirk that and hand it off. But Paul makes this clear claim that the women speaking up in public. Right. This goes back to Adam and Eve. So don't act like this is cultural. Don't act like this is Paul being a jer. He's going all the way back to the beginning. But I wonder, as we think about this, and Jack, I think you had some thoughts in this direction as to Adam not being the one who's deceived women being deceived again, another thing that we don't really want to talk about in the church. What does that mean, Jack, I'll kick this to you. What does that mean in that context of why is Paul bringing that up? I guess. [01:07:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Thanks for putting me on the spot there, Joe. Trying to. [01:07:59] Speaker C: I'll let you be the jerk. [01:08:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll be the one that gets canceled. [01:08:03] Speaker B: Joe's already gotten canceled, so he can't get canceled. [01:08:08] Speaker A: That it's so directly tied to the teaching is. I mean, this is something again, that's very unpopular. Is that women, because they're loving, nurturing and caring thing, all that, they are more inclined to believing and accepting. And I'm not saying they're gullible, but what he's getting at there is that she was more easily deceived because, you know, and Adam didn't do his job. He wasn't standing up, he wasn't going. No, no, that's, that's not true. Don't listen to him. We're out of here. Stop talking to the snake. He's a bad guy. And so Adam abdicated his role, but she was for that. And so you see these, you know, Beth Moore and these women that get preaching and the bad ideas that come out of it, it and the drift that's in there and also the feel good theology that comes out of it and the softening of Christianity that we're seeing in today's world is very much a feminization of Christianity. [01:09:05] Speaker C: And I mean, it's that nurturing that you spoke to. [01:09:08] Speaker A: It is the nurturing. And you see, you know, the whole brokenness culture we've talked about of, you know, like, let's just bring everybody in and give them a hug. But then you don't have the capacity to stand up and say, thus saith the Lord, thou art the man, David, repent. And we talked about last time that there is a need for men to say the hard truths, men to go and step on some toes. And that's not to say that a woman can't say a hard truth. But more often than not. And the wiring that we have is that, I mean, it's almost a good cop, bad cop thing. You know, there's the, the man that's going to come in and say something that's going to hurt some feelings, but the woman's response is to patch up those feelings. Right? Well, if, if you're, if the response is naturally, let's not hurt feelings, where do you end up? You end up with a Christianity that never offends. And a Christianity that never offends is nothing. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Right. Well, and the example of this, again, generalizing here, but you got a husband and a wife. You know, they're at a restaurant and they get, one of them gets the order. They get the order wrong. Who is typically the one that points it out, right? That talks? The waiters. Hey, this, this order is wrong. Typically the husband. Right? Two people, you know, man and a woman. Which one of them is going to be more comfortable with Confrontation. Generalizing, of course, but you know, why? Biologically, the way we're wired is typically the guy, typically the man. And that speaks to your point, Jack, about, you know, we've feminized to some extent our Christianity, our church is so much. You just read a book that is on my list, haven't read it yet. Why men hate going to church. It's because of that very reason. We've created a atmosphere, we've created a church culture that does not speak to men. It's very woman based. [01:10:44] Speaker A: Well, you can look at some of the contemporary Christian music and I mean, the guy makes the point in that book, a lot of it sings of Jesus as your boyfriend. Like, I mean there's, there is that tone to that and that comes out in sermons and that comes out in the softness. And there's a need for softness, but there's also a need for hardness. There's, there's both sides of this coin. And as I brought up on the podcast before, he says so, well, the lion and the lamb. And the lion is really appealing in that soft side of us, but there's a need for a lamb side of us. And in Acts 20, when Paul talks about the false teachers that are gonna come into Ephesus, he says wolves are gonna come in. You don't send women out to protect the flock from wolves. You don't. That would be wrong. And so that's a big part of this thing as well, is what we do really matters. And you need a strength there that God has provided in this way. [01:11:32] Speaker B: Well, and we've talked about the roles, the roles that God designed for men and women. We talked about their temptations, their weaknesses combined last episode with this. And we've talked about kind of their tendencies and that kind of thing. Something that we've hit around but never really come out on it. And that is the sacrifices and benefits of each specific gender. You know, for men, you know, the sacrifice, and we did bring this up last week, is that we're going to have to take responsibility and do the hard things. You know, as Jack brought up last week, if there's an intruder trying to break in, we're not going to be pushing our wives out of it. You take care of it, honey. I'm just going to stay here. No, that's the man's job. We have to do the hard things. We have that responsibility. But what's the benefit of that? You know, what is the reward for that, so to speak? It's the privilege of leading. It's the God given role or the God given responsibility of yes, you are the leader. That's something that you are able to do. On the other side of the coin, for the women, what is their sacrifice? It's that giving up of authority. Right. The idea, well, I'm not going to usurp the man's Authority, I'm going to choose to submit to my husband's authority. I'm going to choose to follow. Even though culture and everything in me might want to choose to be the leader, the sacrifice for women is that they're going to submit. Well, what's the benefit? They don't have to get up in the middle of the night to fight the intruder. They don't have to kill the spider. Those are small examples. But women, the benefit for that, for women, protection, provision, they don't have to do the hard things that falls on the man. We don't celebrate those two again, we try to combine the two typically in our culture. And so it's important to point out not just our strengths, our weaknesses, et cetera, those are the sacrifices that each gender has to make, but also the benefits that come with those sacrifices. [01:13:06] Speaker C: And those things will naturally happen. I think one way or the other. They don't want to accept this. I think a lot of people don't. Men will naturally have to take responsibility at some point down the line. Same thing with Adam. You didn't step up, you didn't take responsibility. Well, guess what, Adam, it's still your responsibility. You know, all of these parenting techniques of like being kind to the child and never disciplining him. Hardly. And we just want to speak to him. I know he's a toddler and can't possibly understand what I'm talking to him about, but you know, that's that nurturing, that's that loving, and the man needs to step up and go, that's ridiculous. But if he lets the woman lead on that, then you grow up and you have horrible train wreck kids that are going to be really difficult and unruly. This is just what happens. Same thing in the church when we allow women to lead in the church, even from the backside and we say, well, I'm the man, I'm in public. And there's kind of that false manhood. [01:13:54] Speaker A: Well, the nice guy thing we talked about last night, the nice guy is the nice guy was trained to allow this usurpation by women. And the responsibility is do some of the things that she can't do, but the rest is get out of her way and do what she says. Yes, ma'am. [01:14:07] Speaker C: Right. And it will ultimately, as I said last week, the buck stops with you. Ultimately, you will have to take responsibility. If not in this life, you will, on the judgment, take responsibility for your wife's actions and for the woman. This idea of submitting, look, when women take the head of the Family, this is going to be a, you know, buckle up here. It's a train wreck. It's an absolute train wreck. When women take the lead in the family. It has been. It will continue to be, because that's not what they're intended to do. We're seeing a culture who is pushing women to the forefront of the family while the husband allows that usurpation to take place. That's what she desires to do from the fall. That's what she desires to do. And the man goes, okay, men, it will ultimately come back to you. And women will ultimately, they'll hit a barrier at some point if they go over that man. They will eventually still be in submission to a man, whether it be the elders of a church, whether it be the leaders of, you know, the country, whatever it is, they will eventually have to submit at some point. And all along that process, devastation will take place. And again, I think that's what we're seeing in this culture right now. [01:15:06] Speaker B: That's. Well, that's the. Those are the fruits of it, as we've, as we've discussed already. Those are the fruits, you know, what we have seen in the last 50, 60, 70 years of women, you know, taking much more leadership in the home. The idea of the absent dad type of thing, who just comes home and sits in the recliner. What are the fruits of that? You know, immorality is unchecked these days. Jails are overflowing. You know, the laws that are going into place, most Christians would agree the world is going downhill. What are some of the symptoms of that? What are some of the reasons that that is the case? We don't dare try to say, well, maybe guys should step up and start assuming their leadership role in the home more. [01:15:44] Speaker C: And my point is these things that God has put the man is to take responsibility, the woman is to submit is a natural law of life that will take place one way or the other. In my opinion, the man will try to buck the responsibility. It will ultimately come back to him. The woman will try to buck the submitting. She'll try to usurp the man. And ultimately, when the train wreck takes place, it will come back around to, why isn't the man doing his role? And she'll have to submit herself under that or be submitted. She'll have to submit herself to. Even if she runs over her husband to somebody in society, to somebody in life, she cannot run roughshod over everybody. This is a natural law in life that these two things I think will take place. God Designed it that way. So if we're going with the telos, if we're going with the designed role, that's a woman submitting in quiet submission, working in the home. I think this is the perfection. Can there. Am I. Am I calling out every woman who doesn't? No, but I'm saying, if you're trying to hit the absolute perfect thing, the nail to the hammer, what a woman's designed role is, I think, is to bear children. Right. We see this in First Timothy 2. To keep the home and to help her husband, as in Proverbs 31, to help lift up her husband to be the help meet she was designed to be. [01:16:57] Speaker A: Well, and hold on, we need to say this as well. As we said, we live in a culture that marriage is not valued or is not pushed both for men and women. And so some women can't find a man to marry some, you know, like someone. And so, yeah, we've got so many single women. And so they could say, well, I don't have a husband, I don't have kids. What do I do about this? The qualities are there, the quiet and submissive spirit, the love, the nurture of the people around you, that you can care and serve your church in ways that aren't preaching, aren't speaking all the time, aren't, you know, those upfront things, but still those, those ways that God is given you, but still cultivating those qualities is really important. Whether you're going to get married or not, whether you're widowed, whatever state you find yourself in, some of those things are universal for women and should be emphasized as such. And so one thing I want to say before we finish is the truth that needs to be said most is going to be the one that hurts the most or is the least popular or just is the one that people don't want to hear. Right. And this, you know, the masculinity one, some people are going to take issue with it. This is the one that, as I said, every time we've written on, every time we put something out of focus, press. This is the one that gets killed. Because who are you to tell women you're just men, you're just a bunch of white men, you're a bunch of, you know. And what again, the Moton Bailey thing. Oh, so you're saying that women aren't equal or you just want. Want women to be locked in the kitchen and, you know, you think women are stupid, they can't go to college. We haven't said any of those things. So don't put words in our mouths, number one. But number two, this is something the church has to start getting right because as Joe said, it's been a train wreck that we haven't. We've trained men to be nice guys, to sit back, to always ask permission, to always, you know, yes, dear honey, do happy wife, happy life kind of thing, rather than leading. And we've told women, you don't need to submit, and especially if you don't submit, it's your husband's fault because he's not leading well enough and he's got to do better. And then we end up in this culture again of women not wanting to get married. Sexual promiscuity and pornography among women is on the rise again. The antidepressants and things like that is very bad. But another one we haven't talked about is, I think it's two thirds of divorce are initiated by the women. And we always kind of blame men. Men want to work it out. Men want to try and stay and fight for their marriage. Women think there's something better for me out there because feminism, all this has taught them that. And so they go and do that. And the best thing the church can do for them is go, well, husbands, you should have done better. And you've got these guys who are desperate to save their marriage and this woman who the world is telling them, just go out there and be you and do you, and you're gonna love life and. And you're. Get out of the shackles of your family and your wife and your kid, your husband and your kids. I just did the Joe mistake. Get out the. You know, cast off those shackles and really go out and live your life. And again, it's making them miserable. It's. It's entirely selfish, which never makes anybody happy. It's outside of the design God has given them. And yet again, all the church can do is tell the guys, well, you need to step up. No, it's time we start telling women, this is your design. And you're not going to be as happy as you should be. You're not going to be serving God the way you should be until you start looking to fulfill this. [01:20:07] Speaker C: I can speak to that. Doing couples therapy, this doesn't make it. You know, your statistic is very legit, but I'm just backing that up with nine times out of ten, when I do couples therapy, it is the woman trying to get out of the relationship. Multiple times, it has been the woman who has cheated. I'm not saying that's that's going to sound horrible and say, oh, all women. No, no, no. I'm not saying all women are. I'm saying I do think that statistic bears out that there is this discontent. Well, you spoke to that discontent. That's like, I'm not happy here. I'll go. I'll be happy somewhere else. The grass is always gre. And I don't. In my experience, a lot of the men that I work with are very desperate. Exactly as you said, Jack, to work it out. To be honest, I lost my train of thought. Will, though, I think you had a point. [01:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I had a point. Going back to kind of what we brought up with the articles that my dad and others have written that teach what we started with at the beginning, that we need to be teaching our young girls or raising our young girls differently than we raise our young men. That's so true. And that's something that we're talking about. Practical things that we need to be taking away from this episode and the studies that we have. Two things. One, we absolutely must begin when girls are young, teaching them the value of being in the home, teaching them the value of being a wife, being a mother. Again, the congregations, the people that I've interacted with, the times that. And as I've said before, I've visited a lot of congregations. This is not just one or two sample size here. This is quite a few. We do not teach young girls the value of being in the home. And so, again, they're raised by the culture. They're raised by, you know, inadvertent feminism here. You know, being raised to think you're not a success unless you go to college. You're not a success unless you get a job out of college. You're not a success if you're a wife and mother. We've got to stop that practical thing. Number one, we have to start teaching our young girls that there is value in that. But also, we have to start preaching it from the pulpit. The fact that there is value in the home, not just for young girls, but for women that are already wives and mothers. There is value in the home. There is value in being a mother. There's value in being a homemaker and raising kids. Value is not 100% wrapped up in how much money you make and how much power you have. You know, if it was, no wonder women want to strive for that. But it's not. God. And God's word values life and values. Values children, even. You know, Jack brought up how culture despises children, you know, what is that? We're averaging less than two kids per family now in America today. God's word places immense value on children. And so we've got to get back to that in our, in our classes for young girls and our congregations in general, stressing the differences, teaching the differences, not filled with caveats of, you know, casually acknowledging submission, but then pretty much saying, you guys go do the same thing. There's value in the home and we need to start teaching that. So that's, that's to bring it back to where it started with the articles that create so much buzz and create so much controversy. It shouldn't be controversial. It's scripture. It should not be controversial. And yet it still will be in many cases. [01:23:07] Speaker C: And I remember my point, and it goes along with that, which is for those that say you shouldn't be talking on this or that's, that's, you know, again, three white guys or whatever else, the controversy that surrounds it, look, which one's more loving? To help women understand their God given role, where they will be happiest or to allow them to pursue something that we know doesn't ultimately provide happiness? We know the statistics bear this out. We know scripture bears this out. But because we don't want to tell them no, we don't want to say, this is not what's going to make you happiest. You're not going to do it. We're going to fall into the trap of culture and say, we're going to let you. Look, if I knew that me driving a car down the road in 10 miles, I'm going to get hit, it's going to be a wreck. It's not good. And if you had me get in that car and said, well, have fun while it lasts, would you? That's not loving. The loving thing would be, give me the car keys. No, no, no, no. I really want to drive this car. That's not the point. I know what happens. I know how bad this is going to be for you. I know this is not going to be fulfilling. It's a matter of fact, it's going to be a wreck. Take the keys. I don't care whether you're a jerk or not. You're helping them pursue what is happy. You know what, what is going to help them be happiest in life according to the word of God. So for us men, I think that's important for us to let our wives know, hey, this is your role. I love you for it. I'm. You excel them all right. As it talks about in Proverbs 31, we got to praise our wives. We got to let them know how cherished they are, how important the role in the home is. Keeping a home with, look, dishes and laundry and taking care of the kids and everything that happens and cooking the meals. That's a lot of work. Well, what am I going to do all day? Look, there's a lot of work there. And even just the aesthetic of the home is a lot of work that is absolutely necessary. Men, recognize that you're not in competition with your wife. Your role is outside the home. Her role is inside the home. Appreciate it. Love it. Both of them need to be appreciative of what the other brings and recognize that a man is happiest when he is pursuing what he needs to outside the home, when he's got a mission and a woman is happiest at home. Let's be loving enough to show people that and to preach it from our pulpits and to let them know, on a husband and wife level, man, I just want what's best for you, which is what scripture lays out. [01:25:15] Speaker A: All right, that's a good place to stop. I want to thank everyone who stuck with us. I know this one and the last one have been longer episodes. We made a decision early on with the podcast that some of the episodes are just going to take more time. And I think if you've listened through both of them, you understand this is something that needed depth, needed time to breathe, needed some space to get into a lot of different aspects and facets of the discussion. And so I want to thank everybody who's stuck with us again through both of these. We'll be back next week, Lord willing, with an episode. [01:25:47] Speaker B: We promise we will get back to Sermon Sum up at some point. Yeah, we haven't been able to do them lately. [01:25:52] Speaker A: Exactly. We don't want to push the two hour mark with the sermon Sum Up. [01:25:55] Speaker B: So we will be on the podcast. [01:25:57] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. We'll be back, Lord willing, next week with an episode on marriage. As I've said before, one of these weeks I'm gonna have twins showing up on my doorstep. So in a manner of speaking. And so we might insert a filler episode here or there, but keep an eye out for our marriage episode as we continue on in this series. Thanks for listening once again and we will talk to you guys next week.