Rethinking the Church’s Approach to Sexuality

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Your co host Will Hare, joined by Joe and Jack Wilke. Excited to bring you guys another episode today. Quick announcement. We are rapidly approaching episode 200. I believe this will be episode 193, 194, something like that. So we are getting close. Definitely before the end of the year will be episode 200. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Crazy. [00:00:28] Speaker A: We want to do something special for it. If you recall episode 100, we did something very special. We all got together and filmed and we did a hundred questions. We attempt to do 100 minutes. It did not turn out to be 100 minutes. I believe it was like hour 20 or something like that or I'm not hour 20, obviously that's only 80 minutes. But it was about 20 minutes past. So yeah, it was about two hour episode. So it was a lot of fun. We really enjoyed that. But we are looking for suggestions for something special to do for episode 200. We appreciate everybody who listens every single week. We appreciate the regularity from everybody. And so, yeah, if you have an idea, let us know. We are open to suggestions. We'll be looking to do that here pretty soon. I also wanted to take this opportunity to thank Marco for coming in last week. He can have my chair anytime he wants. I know. He said, man, if this goes well, I'll just take over wheel spot. That's totally fine. Marco, you do a great job. But I really enjoyed the discussion. I enjoyed being a think deeper consumer for a week and getting to listen to you guys. So shout out to Marco. Really appreciate him being willing to join on and next time we have him, I definitely will make sure that I'm here because I want to pick his brain on some stuff too, so. But appreciate that he just needs to. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Be the fill in. So anytime that one of us is gone. Marco in. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. That's right. It would be pretty bad for me if the ratings for the episode just shot through the roof when Marco was there and I wasn't right. Oh, man. All right, so let's go ahead and get into what we're talking about today. We're talking about sexuality, talking about a sexual theology that we need to have as Christians. And I'm going to kind of get. Get it off the top and say that people have accused us before on this podcast of kind of being a little bit too negative about the church. And you know, man, you guys just pointed out all the negative stuff. I will say I feel like we've done a solid job of also highlighting where the church really gets stuff, right. The things that we do very well, we give ourselves, you know, pat on the pats on the back whenever we feel like it's deserved. And so before the critics come, yeah, we try to be balanced, I think, you know, sometimes if you're a football team, if you're a sports team, you're gonna need to point out. You can't just celebrate the good stuff all the time. You got to point out where you're gonna get better. Same thing in organization, a business. You focus on the red categories instead of the green ones. And so this episode is going to be one of those where we are going to be looking at an area that, in our belief, the Church of Christ, the church in general, does not do a very good job of. We feel like the church badly misses the mark on sexuality, badly misses the mark on giving Christians, giving its members an appropriate view of sexuality according to the Bible. And so I wanted to say that off the top, again, we'll give the church kudos where it deserves it. The church, you know, as far as the. The leadership ministry, the teaching of it. This one, we feel like it's badly missed the mark on. Joe, I am going to turn it over to you to kind of, as we kind of intro this discussion. [00:03:12] Speaker C: Before we do that, let me jump in real quick. If you hadn't figured out this. Also occasionally we have one of those disclaimers, maybe not a listen in the car with your family episodes. It's probably going to be one of those. So just a bit of a heads up before we get rolling. So not to cut you off there, but just wanted to throw that out there. [00:03:27] Speaker A: No, appreciate that qualifier there. Joe, let me ask you this, and any thoughts, of course, that you have on the introduction. Why do you think the church. And we're going to get into why the church gets it wrong kind of how they missed the mark. But I think anybody listening hopefully would not disagree that, you know, when you're talking about discussing sexuality, I don't think anybody's gonna be like, oh, man, I feel like the church does a great job on that. You know, like, I feel like that's a pretty universal consensus. So why do you think that is? I guess would be the question, I turn to you, Joe, of why they missed the mark so badly. And then any other introductory thoughts that you have? [00:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think sexuality is. We call it intimacy. I think intimacy is way more than just sexuality, but it's an intimate discussion. It's an intimate thing. It's something that done in the confines of marriage. So there's something very special about it. There's also a lot of sexual trauma. There's also a lot of sexual issues. And so, you know, when you think about elders or whatever that struggle with sexual issues, struggle with pornography or affairs or preachers, that comes out. The preachers struggle with affairs. I think 50% of preachers or pastors, because it's a broad Christendom statistic, but 50% of pastors struggle with it. I mean, it's really difficult to get it right from the pulpit when you're struggling with it yourself. It's really difficult to take hard line stances on it when half the eldership maybe is looking at porn. Like, the statistics bear out that this is a massive, massive problem. And I think we lose the moral high ground in it. And so the church just decides to stay quiet. If I know that I have some secret addiction, how in the world am I going to get up there and blast people for having a secret addiction? You know what I mean? Like, it's just not going to happen. And not that we need to blast people, but, like, we need to be able to have these conversations. But I think there's a lot of skeletons in the closet. And I also just think that even when that's not the case, I don't want everybody thinking their elders are struggling with it. But even if that's not the case, I think they don't really know where to kind of step into the discussion. I mean, we're not biologists. As Ketanji Brown Jackson would say, we're not biologists. So we don't know how to get, how to have these conversations in an appropriate way. Like, is it appropriate, a Bible class to go into sexuality? Like, how far can you go into sexuality? How old does everybody need to be? Do we split up, guys and girls to have these discussions? There's a lot of discussions that go into. [00:05:35] Speaker A: It's delicate. [00:05:35] Speaker B: How do we handle this topic? It's delicate. And that, to me, is what makes it that much more difficult to discuss. I think there's some things we could do. We're going to get into that a little bit later. But it's. [00:05:44] Speaker A: This is where I would. This is where I would say, jack, and then I'll turn it over to you. I think the church needs to do better at having the delicate discussions. Not be rough with it, but be, you know, you can't just avoid the discussion because it's delicate. And I think that's what takes place with a lot of things Politically, societally, again, in this case, as far as it relates to sexuality, it's delicate. So let's just go the other direction and talk about something else. And I think there is a right and a wrong way to have this discussion versus just not having the conversation or discussion at all, which is what I think the common approach is for most churches. Jack, what thoughts would you have on the introduction there? [00:06:20] Speaker C: It's as simple as if the Bible talks about it and we fail to help people understand what the Bible has to say on it, they're gonna find bad information somewhere. Like this kind of this idea that, well, they'll find their way. That so many times doesn't work. But the other idea of, well, nobody needs to know that stuff. Like, look at the year that it is, man. Like it's. The world we live in is so sexualized that if you are not addressing these things, if you don't have answers to the kinds of temptations people are facing, the kinds of questions that are coming up, that the kids are going to have, things like that. We said this last week with Marco, we said it on a number of different topics that if we don't address it, people are going to find somebody who will. And so you might as well get it right. You might as well open the Word and show people what it has to say about it. [00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the. Exactly as you're saying, we're big at this. On the podcast, Christ rules over every part. That means he rules over your sexuality as well, which means it is something the church should be discussing. There's not a point where the church can look at it and go, well, that's kind of a touchy subject. That's a difficult topic. We're not going to get into that. It doesn't matter if it's sex or anything else. If Christ reigns supreme, if Christ has rulership over it, we need to be discussing it. And I think that's a. We can think about and talk about how we should discuss it, but it needs to be a topic of conversation. Especially Jack, as you said, man, it's so pervasive. It's everywhere. I work with kids that got into porn at 5, 6 years old. Like, we can't think anymore. That, well, that's just an old person thing, and that's a pervert thing, and that's an XYZ thing. If somebody struggles sexually, in my experience, like, more than half the people are struggling with sexuality, whether that be addictions, whether that be sexual trauma, it might be just having a poor sexual Theology where you got a woman who won't sleep with her husband for months on end or whatever, and the guy is really struggling and not knowing, like, where do we come in with these? What do I do with it? Basically, like, what do I do about my libido? Things like that. We have so many sexual issues and dysfunctions and the church refuses to discuss it. And so where do they find the answers? More often than not, they're not necessarily going to go to their best friends about these things. They're going to find it from Google or they're going to pick up a book and hope that they pick up the right book that gives them the answers. [00:08:33] Speaker A: All of those are devoid of a biblical worldview. Getting a different worldview. Let's get into where the church specifically goes wrong. And I would say if anybody that's listening who disagrees and can provide examples or reasons of why the church does a good job with this, I would love to hear it. Let us know in the comments on YouTube, Facebook. Obviously, if you're a deep thinker and subscribe to our Patreon, let us know there. But we've got several on here as far as examples of where the church gets this wrong. The first one that we have on here, look up any statistic you want. Pornography is something that a large sum of men and women, but obviously the majority being men, struggle with in everyday life, the church included. Joe would be better to give the statistics than I would. I'll let him do that here in just a minute if he wants to. But, you know, suffice it to say it's a struggle that a lot of people have. It's a struggle that I would say the majority of people have. And so if that's a struggle that the majority of specifically people in the church have, that needs to be something that gets discussed and I would say needs to get discussed more than A, once a year and B, in a special workshop that's on a Saturday morning that 20% of the congregation comes to. You know what I mean? Like, that needs to be something that is addressed in my belief from the pulpit. Needs to be something that at least gets called out, that gets kind of talked about. I think everybody knows pornography is wrong, but it goes much deeper than that. I feel like this is where church leadership needs to come in and, you know, sermons, lessons, classes, whatever about, here's how to handle it. Here, here's. First of all, here's why it's wrong. Here's how to handle it. Here's how to talk to your kids about it. Here's kind of, here's what to do. We're not getting any of that. And instead you're getting people who basically think, well, I don't really think porn should be taught from the pulpit. I don't think you should even use that word because then what are the young kids gonna think? It's like, man, the young kids are learning about it at 8 years old. Somebody mentioning in the pulpit is not exactly going to do that. When open Google, these kids have phones in their pocket. These kids have friends at school. And so think about how many other. [00:10:38] Speaker C: Biblical words we use. Fornication. Like are we not allowed to read homosexuality? Yeah. I mean these, we're not allowed to read Romans 1 from the pulpit because kids are going to start asking like, if my 3 year old asked me, daddy, what's pornography? I would say I'll tell you when you're older. And that's the end of that discussion. But people talk about it like, oh, I'm going to have this. [00:10:57] Speaker B: No. [00:10:57] Speaker C: This Barnard study said only 10% of U.S. churchgoers say their church offers a program to help those struggling with pornography. Says 58% believe their church should be addressing the issue more. So 6 out of 10 churchgoers, and that includes that study, is you've got people who say the church shouldn't talk about it at all are part of the 42% there. And so that means a lot of people, almost 60% are saying we should. That means it's not getting done a lot. That means there's a real need there. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Say that it should happen. But only 1 in 10 churches is it actually happening. That's pretty telling. [00:11:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And again, was it 65% of basically two out of three Christian churchgoing men struggle with it on some level. [00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah. They said of all Christians, that's the one you're looking at. Jack, I think is Barna did one in 2015, the porn phenomenon. It was a landmark study. I mean it was huge with all sorts of stuff. That's one where we got that kids view not recycling these days. They view not recycling as more and more greater sin than pornography use. But yeah, in that study, this is 2024, they updated some of these things. They said in the US the number of people consuming pornography has continued to rise. A 6 percentage point increase from 55% in 2015 to 61% in late 2024. The number is over 50% of those in the church at large. We've got a significant issue. We track closely to the World. We track close to the world within the church. And so we think, oh, it's much better in the church. Realistically, it's not. It may be a little bit better, but even this was going back to the Barna study that they released in 2015. And again, numbers have gotten worse, especially after Covid. Especially after, you know, so much took place where people are in isolation that got a lot of people kicked off into it. So the numbers have gotten worse. Back then, I think it was 18 to 31 or 18 to 29 was the demographic, and they were like 72% up to 80% in some studies were saying that guys in that demographic were viewing porn regularly. That's a significant amount. 33% of women are viewing porn. So we think, oh, it's just a guy issue. It's not. That's majorly on the rises. So we're talking one in three women are viewing pornography. Well, not in the church. Even in the church between. And this is across all age spectrums. I believe 11% of women. So 1 in 10, over 1 in 10 were viewing it. This is nine years ago. The number's gotten worse. And that's among all women of all age groups. And so, yeah, I mean, it is a problem that has to be addressed. And I agree with you guys in the fact that we so easily downplay it. Like, well, I don't want my kids to go search it. I'm pretty sure the kid is not going to go research because the preacher mentioned the word pornography. And if that is the case, you got bigger fish to fry. [00:13:35] Speaker C: And you should have things on your computer, his device in his room, you know, a phone in his hand, whatever. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, right. So you want to be the go to for your kid on all of these things where he does ask, what's pornography? You know, you want to make sure that they're coming to you with those questions and saying, hey, what is this? I heard him say that if they are having this. And so you got to build that out. That's something that you work on from a young age of man. We're open to every question, every question about sexuality. We're starting young and, you know, using the appropriate words, penis and vagina and things like that. So the kids know sexuality is a part of you. It's really important to get that. So I think the first thing is you. [00:14:12] Speaker C: I was gonna throw into there. I think a lot of people's answer to it is just stop. Like, it's called an addiction for a reason. And so we need methods to address it. I was gonna ask you, Joe, if you can give us just a brief walkthrough of what it should look like. You know, say, well, churches should be doing it. Well, of course that means preach a sermon on it, mention it. Don't be afraid to mention it in sermons of common sins and things like that. But something along the lines of the outlet how they can go to somebody, but also when they go to an elder, when they go to the minister, what do we plug them into? I don't think it's healthy for them to have like a, you know, like a priestly confessional relationship where there's one guy that's their accountability partner. So if a church is going to build out a program for this, maybe get some guys together, there's going to be multiple. What does that look like? [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say an elder, probably, and I would include the preacher. Need to establish a group of at least four men. I think at least four. There's a great book called Open by Craig Gross that goes into how to start these groups. I would have a group. I would also get a workbook. There's several different workbooks. I mean, they're not therapists, but Facing the Shadows over here, it's kind of a workbook people can work through if they're really deep into pornography addiction. Even just the group where we're meeting consistently, you start a group thread so you want to make sure that they can text throughout the day. SoS need help, whatever it is, we're praying for one another. You want to check in over the group. And then I would have a weekly meeting for a group. At least weekly. If you can do bi weekly, that's fantastic. Of at least four guys that are getting together. And even if it's one guy that struggles, we can make it an accountability group of, hey, I want to make sure I'm waking up on time and getting to my Bible study. Like, it's helpful to have a porn based accountability group. But if there's only one guy that's like, man, well, you know, none of the rest of us struggle, which is not true. But even if that was the case, we can make it an accountability group about all sorts of stuff. Very little judgment. The guy feels judged, he's not going to come there. On the other hand, we have to have the answers, which is, check out my podcast, the get out of Porn podcast, because it goes into accountability groups and kind of what to look for in that. But you want a lot of structure. You want guys that are going to Go through the trenches with you. So elders are going to need to know the statistics. They're going to need to know how to talk to a guy about his emotions. They're going to need to know to ask things like, okay, how did you fall? You know, how did you access? What was the trigger point? What would you do differently next time? What was the underlying need? So if they're struggling with it, what's the underlying need? You want to have groups where that's the case. I would also apply them with a bunch of books. I think from a sexual standpoint, this goes for all of them. I got a ton on pornography. Just say Rethinking Sexuality from Dr. Julie Slatter. She's got another one called God Sex and you'd Marriage. She is unbelievable. Dr. Julie Slattery. I love her books. Those are two fantastic ones. Holy Sexuality and the Gospel from Christopher Yuan. This guy was a former homosexual, drug addict or no, drug dealer, sorry. Went to prison, found Christ, came out of it. Great story. He's got a different story. But that's Holy sexuality. Gospel for parents. Let's say they're going to go, man, what do I do? You go to the elders. Touchy subjects. Craig Gross, I already mentioned him. David Dean, he's a Christian comedian, I believe. Great book. Got some funny stuff in there, but it's also really, really helpful. So touchy subjects for Christian marriages. They're struggling in sex. What do I do? Douglas Rosnow. Fantastic book. Celebration of Sex. These are all really good resources that I would give anybody for helping them sexually from a pornography standpoint. I mean, I got a ton. So reach out to us if that's something you're interested in. I have a full PDF of probably two dozen books and different websites and things like that for that would. And this is what I would hope to do, and I kind of hope to do this at some point is go and teach elders how to start an accountability group. Here's all the resources. Here's some things that I would have backed up. I've got my own quick guide to quitting porn. Hand them that. They're cheap, you know, hand. Hand a guy that and just let them walk through. I got therapy prompts at the end so the guy can journal, things like that. So you got to get these guys busy and you got to get them in a structured system. This is an intimacy disorder. Not to go off on just the pornography, but if they're struggling with addiction, it's an intimacy disorder, which is vulnerability plus authenticity. They can't be vulnerable. They can't be authentic. So you want to make sure that you create space for both of those where they can be fully vulnerable with who they are, what they struggle with. They can be fully authentic and know I see you and I love you and I'm still here for you, that we don't condone the sin, but we're still here for you. We're going to go through the trenches with you. We're going to come over to your house if you need. We're going to pray with you. We're going to give you resources, things like that. [00:18:23] Speaker A: So if that answer didn't tell you the church can do a lot, it's kind of the, it's kind of the, the answer there, Joe, I appreciate you providing that. Usually we wait till the end to provide the resources. I think it's probably helpful to do that at the beginning. So thank you for doing that briefly. [00:18:34] Speaker C: I'm going to cut that out and make that a standalone clip just for church to have for sure. [00:18:39] Speaker A: There you go. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Good job. [00:18:43] Speaker C: Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. I wanted to tell you about our seminars at Focus Press. Each of us involved in the work have a series of lessons that we have prepared to encourage churches to help you understand the word better, how to navigate this culture. We cover a wide range of topics from things like evolution and apologetics to cultural issues to the family to the godly young men. Kind of content that Joe and will do to church reset, which is of course my passion to schedule one of us. Whether Dr. Brad Harab will harab Joe Wilkie or me. Jack Wilke, reach out to [email protected] if you'd like to talk to me or if you'd like to talk to one of the others. I'll pass your information along to them. Or we'd love to come and encourage your church and put on one of our Focus Press seminars. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Briefly. Let's get to a few of the other areas because that was just the first one of where the church gets it wrong. I'll hit this one if somebody wants to. The next one. I think in the church we teach abstinence. You know, we tell kids, hey, don't have sex before marriage. That's about the extent of it. We don't really tell them why. We don't really go into. And I understand, I guess the qualifier needs to be given. I am generalizing. I'm sure there are congregations out there that do a great job of kind of teaching the why behind it. But yeah, highlighting the Damage that it causes, what it does to your spouse once you do get married to somebody, if you've, you know, slept with three or four people before, what it does to your emotions, how it affects, you know, again, your marriage in general, when you guys start having kids, all those things. And further beyond that, once again, the why? Not just. Well, because God says not to, which is true. But, you know, as one of Joe's biggest things, you know, there's. You got to teach them the why, otherwise they're not going to really adopt it. That's what you see. I mean, what I'd be so curious to know, what percentage of Christian young people sleep around before marriage. I'd wager it's pretty high. It's high. Yeah, exactly. And so this is another area where I think the church gets it wrong is we do teach abstinence, but not a lot of depth, not a lot of detail, not a lot of nitty gritty. We just kind of keep it generic. Never get specific. Any thoughts on that before we move on to the next one? [00:20:45] Speaker C: Yeah, with that. We're really big on owning past mistakes. Right. Of if you've done something wrong, say it so somebody else can avoid that we've done everything right thing. We hate that so much. This is one where, yeah, a lot of people have done this, and I think a lot of young people, there's kind of this view of I'll regret it if I don't have experiences, if I haven't gotten out there and if it's just one person or if I just settle down, whatever it may be. No, we need Christians who went down that road to say, I regret every single one, every time I did before I got married like that. No, this has harmed my marriage. This has made my life worse. [00:21:18] Speaker A: It wasn't the greatest days of my life in college. Not. [00:21:22] Speaker C: Oh, man. Yeah. That really, really upsets me when Christians talk that way. Oh, back in the day, I really got around. Don't you need to repent of that? But a lot of people do have those regrets. Christ takes the shame away. You can own that and help young people avoid your mistakes. And so that side of it, the next one part of this, and this rolls into it, is allowing kids to get their worldview from the world other than just natural desires. Why do they want to do that? Well, because they watch TV shows where the main character has 50 girlfriends over the course of it, and it's always implied that they're sleeping together and things like that. And because of what you're going to run into in their peers growing up. And, you know, I had kids on my hockey team starting at, like, 14 years old, talking about their sexual experiences, you know, like, it's insanity. And so then you really start feeling, like, left out. There's, like, that pressure there. Well, if not for a strong grounding in biblical sexuality, you can really get swept up in that stuff. And again, if we're not having the conversation, they're going to be looking at that like, man, I'm over here, not allowed to have any fun. To that last point, what is the point of abstinence? What is the point of all this? Well, you've got a Christian view of the world, a Christian view of marriage, a Christian view of children, you know, that can come from sexual activity, things like that. That it's all together. It's a. It's a complete ideology, not just what feels good in the moment. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And the idea of, well, the Bible says not to. Okay, is that strong enough really? Like, I'm sorry to say, but is that strong enough for most people? The Bible says not to get angry or get angry. Do not sin. Right. The Bible says, don't gossip. The Bible says all sorts of stuff that, hey, well, what do you know? We find ourselves doing just because the Bible says, like, why. Why does the Bible say not to lie? We can give a reason for that. Why does the Bible say, don't fornicate if we know why, which is, you are robbing your future wife, especially if you're going and sleeping with somebody different. But even I've told people on podcast before, like, yes, Alyssa and I slept together before marriage was one of the worst mistakes of my life. And it almost broke us up because there's so much. I mean, there's so much that goes into something like that of, like, we are. I'm taking something that's not mine. I have not put a ring on it. I have not committed myself. And so I want the. I want all the benefits that come from an intimate life, that come from a committed covenantal relationship. I want all the benefits without actually having the covenant, without actually having to say, we're going to be through. You know, we're going to get through this thicker, thin, for better, for worse, all the things that we vow. And so the reason it has to be a covenantal relationship, the why for fornication is it has to be. We want to be in the covenant because you could break up tomorrow, and you have given somebody a piece of you that you'll never get back, and it's not just that. It's. You're robbing yourself of the best sex in marriage, which comes from a complete intimacy. And how could you be completely intimate, especially spiritually, when you're sinning and when you're sneaking and when you're doing things that you know that you're not supposed to? And there's a shame piece. Shame should not enter into the sexual conversation. And it does every time. So I often tell people, Genesis 2 is perfect bliss, marital bliss and sexuality. Naked and unashamed. 2:25. Genesis 3 is fornication. They were naked and ashamed. We are bringing Genesis 3 into a Genesis 2 world. When we're fornicating, that's a really scary thing to do. We got to be careful when we're thinking about these things, when we're talking to kids about it, because kids look at it and go, well, what's the point? You know, what's the big deal? So they're taking of that fruit from Eve and all the parents step back. We're the ones that God is going to look at and go, you listen to the voice of your child. You listen to the voice of your child. You let your child go out and understand what sexuality is from the world. Adam gets judged for listening to the voice of his wife. Genesis 3:17. And we're gonna get judged for listening to the voice of our kids, because the kids went out and watched Euphoria and watched, you know, all sorts of crazy, depraved Netflix shows and watched Game of Thrones and was watching porn online and going to school and hearing about all their 8 year olds. I just heard, had a client tell me that he drives school buses and the eight year olds on his bus were talking about relationships and breaking up 8 years old. Yes, Parents will be judged for that when we allow our kids to engage in a Genesis 3 world and we have done nothing to stop it. So, yeah, we got to understand the why. Yes, we have to give them a robust sexual theology that they know what sex actually is and what it's for and why it is supposed to be in the confines of marriage. Because sex outside covenant is nothing. Sex outside covenant is nothing but problems, really. STDs and everything else. [00:25:43] Speaker A: This is the final point before we get to maybe focusing a little more specifically on parents. And that is that the church just treats sex as something to kind of be ashamed of and embarrassed of. And I think part of that is due to we look at the way the world presents it. And sure, you know, for some people, that's oh, that's exciting. That's thrilling. You know, deep down we know that's, that's kind of dirty. Like that's not, that's not a good thing. Right? It's very unclean. You know, like the. Especially. Not that I'm at all a consumer of rap music, but I'm familiar with it the way rap music portrays sex. And it's in a very dirty, just vile, disgusting fashion. And so I think as a result, the church takes that, they think sex and they think those things. And so it's like, man, that is not a good thing at all. We need to be ashamed of that. We need to not mention it from the pulpit. We need to kind of keep kids ears close to it as much as possible. Then maybe when they're 15, okay, maybe now we'll start talking about it. But it's still, it's just in a very shame filled light. And again, I think a lot of that is just due to the connotation of it from the world. And so, yeah, that's where the church has to regain like, no, just because rap music corrupts it. And as Joe spoke to the Netflix shows and all those things, God designed it, God created it, therefore it is very good within a certain set of parameters. And so therefore that's how we need to talk about it. Not in an ashamed fashion. As you spoke to Joe, naked and unashamed in a, you know, in a blessing. As a blessing, as something good that God created. We don't, I mean if we do teach that, we, I think we just kind of pay lip service to it and we spend more time discussing the. All the things to kind of be ashamed of and less about the blessing of it. Joe, you got a thought? [00:27:21] Speaker B: It's interesting that I was talking and I think I've told this on podcast before. I was talking to Dr. Danny Petrillo, Ed Bear Valley about it because I was teaching a class on Song of Solomon and he, I think he's the one that wrote the commentary on it. And so I was kind of picking his brain and great commentary, truth for today and picking his brain on it and things like that. And he said, you know, it's interesting, the Jewish scholars back in the day that were talking about Song of Solomon, this goes back before Christ was born, they were squirrely about it, they didn't want to discuss sex, they were kind of ashamed of it. And that's why they allegorized Song of Solomon so much like, well, it's God's relationship with his people. Okay, there May be loosely that the same way that a marriage is. Yes. To reflect that Song of Solomon is highly, highly sexual. It's a book of the Bible that's discussing oral sex. It's discussing some things. They're like, whoa. You know, that's. Once you get into it, it's crazy. It's a beautiful thing. And God shows this all along. And I always share this because I think this is an interesting tidbit of information. Song of Solomon is one of the only ancient. Because this. It parallels with like Egyptian poetry and such. It's one of the only ancient. I think maybe the only ancient poem or set of poetry or love notes where the woman describes the man's body. It's always the man describing the woman's body. The woman describes the man's body, which means it's together. Men and women are supposed to enjoy this in marital bliss. It's a beautiful thing. God makes this part of the scripture or part of the Bible, part of the scriptures. I think for us to get our sexual theology right. But you rewind the clock 2500 years and those guys themselves are ashamed and kind of like, I don't know. And trying to push down the sexual meaning of the book. We've got to get used to the fact that, yes, God created it. It's a beautiful thing. Sure, it's not something that we're going to flaunt everywhere and talk about sexuality all the time, but man, what a missed opportunity when we could go straight to the scriptures and give a fantastic book on sexuality, beautiful sexuality in the confines of marriage. [00:29:10] Speaker C: So before we move off of this, you've raised a point in my mind that I think we need to address. We'd be remiss if we didn't. Purity culture is a phrase that gets used. You brought up something earlier about like, you have given a part of yourself to people. And man, people have slammed purity culture, the I Kiss Dating goodbye and all those books, you know, 20 years ago that just gave us a negative view of sexuality. And basically. And it can go too far where it's all shame and awkwardness and all that. And there's not a positive view of it. But some people are really anti purity culture. And so as we talk about what churches should do, I'm in favor of getting back to some level of purity culture of some level of. You are giving yourself. Yeah, like the idea of giving yourself away. There is something to that. Like, there's. There's part of the psychology of that. And so just briefly, we've got to move on to other points. But I really do think that needs to be addressed here. Thoughts on that, just briefly, Joe, and. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Then I'll kind of let you wrap the thought up there. This is one of those areas where I feel like people, you know, kind of took the bad and because they were kind of anti purity culture to begin with, they saw the Duggars, they saw Josh Harris, you know, they saw everything that went wrong with and say, see, that's why it's bad. That's why, you know, we just need to completely abolish purity culture. Essentially. It's like, okay, I get to Yalls point here to what you just said, Jack. Like, yeah, it can go too far. Especially when you consider kind of, again, the fruits of some of the people that championed it the loudest. That doesn't mean it did not have a lot of good tenets to it specifically. Hey, you know, you shouldn't really have. You know, I think, I don't know if this, this example is probably not original to my dad, but he's the first one I heard it from, so I'll attribute it to him. If you're at your wedding and you're the bridesmaid, if you're the guy and the bridesmaids of your new spouse is every girl you've ever been either partially or fully intimate with, how long would that line be? And that's something that, you know, again, purity culture is like, hey, don't get emotionally attached to people. Don't get obviously sexually attached to anybody. [00:31:08] Speaker B: That's a good tenet. [00:31:09] Speaker A: That's a good aspect of that to be teaching rather than just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Regarding purity culture, I think it's a good thing that you know, when we, when we're telling 15 year olds, hey, you don't need to date right now, wait four years, you know, when we're telling 16 year olds, you ready for marriage? No. Okay, then you don't need to be dating. That's a good aspect of it as well. And so that's where just to. I like this point, Jack. To completely abandon the whole idea of purity culture and kind of being hesitant of dating and everything that came along with that with purity culture, especially the dad's involvement, like, those are good things. Can it go too far? Did it go too far? [00:31:41] Speaker B: Sure. [00:31:42] Speaker A: And we need to highlight the negative aspects, a lot of positive aspects, things that I'll be passing on to my kids as well. I might not call it purity culture, whatever it is, but a lot of positive aspects to pass on there? [00:31:54] Speaker B: Well, yeah, because look, they say they treated it as though abstinence was the golden ticket to having the sex life of your dreams. That's not necessarily the case. But I can also tell you that going and sleeping around is not the golden ticket either. And that's the other side of it is people that want to abolish purity culture forget that. Yeah, going and sleeping around is not good either. They had that Jesus wants the rose. Right where it goes around and the rose is touched. And Jesus wants rose. It's like, yeah, but not every guy does, sorry to say. Jesus may want that rose. And Jesus certainly isn't going to turn you away. He's willing to offer grace and forgive and things like that. Doesn't mean that your desirability among men has gone up because you have slept with 70 men. You know, everybody got the rose or vice versa. With males to females, you do lose stock. And I'm sorry to say, but like, that's the way that it goes. And it's probably the way it should go is if you are sleeping around with everybody, you're not going to get the purest of the purest of the pure type of thing. On the other hand, you look at it and that sounds bad and people are going to be, you know, up in arms about it. And I'm not saying it can't happen. [00:32:56] Speaker A: It's just reality. [00:32:57] Speaker B: Not saying people can't redeem consequences of action. Yeah, correct. It is just reality. And the other thing is where purity culture goes wrong is, okay, we were pure, we're supposed to have it. Well, there's a lot of, a lot of unidentified porn addicts that got into marriage and that kind of ruined it. And the other thing is you have a lot of women that kind of get the princess complex where it's like the guy has to do everything for me. And sexuality is, you know, it's just a constant struggle in their marriage because the guy wants all the time and the woman doesn't. Or the guy is maybe a little rough or the guy is, you know, doesn't really understand what intimacy looks like and the woman kind of has this, their mind as to it's going to be this beautiful thing. Missed expectations. That's the struggle of purity culture is we, we made the expectations for this great sex life to be a bar that is basically unattainable for young Christian married couples. We gotta lower the bar and say, I think not lower the bar sexually purity wise, but lower the bar in terms of when you get in yes. You're have to explore certain things. You're gonna have to work on your sex life. It's not gonna go in. And because you didn't sleep together before marriage, you're just gonna be pros at this. You're not. There's gonna be a lot of growth along the way and there may be some pain and there may be some, some struggles and there may be some, some intimate conversations about I like this or I don't like that. Those things are really necessary early on. And purity culture missed all of that. So people go, they throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well, purity culture is terrible. No, it's not. Abstinence is not a bad thing. We just have to let people know. Just because you're abstinent doesn't mean you're going to have the sex life of your dreams immediately. But it gives you a much better chance to have it because you're not, you're not having euphoric recall about some past sexual experience. And your wife is always wondering, I wonder if he's got so and so in his mind. That will ruin intimacy really fast when comparisons and things like that start to come in. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:31] Speaker B: Kids don't think about this stuff, but parents should. Parents need to be passing that along to kids. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And that gets us into kind of the next section and more specifically highlighting where parents get it wrong. In case you kind of lost track along the way. The first 30 minutes there, we're talking about kind of where the church misses the mark. And hopefully we've made the case for it. Why we believe that to be the case. But let's focus in on parents for just a second, guys. Jack, I'll start with you. I'll introduct or introduce it and then any thoughts that you have. We are young parent or we are young parents. As far as our kids are young. Yalls oldest are seven, I think, and my oldest is not even four yet. And so, you know, lest anybody jump on and say, man, you guys just act like you know what you're talking about, we will admit we are not at this point yet. But this is an area where, from observation, from discussions with people, where I think parents have got it wrong. And that is they just kind of refuse to talk about it with their kids. Similarly to in the church. It's just not a topic of conversation. It's never brought up. And when I'm talking kids, I'm talking like 9, 10, 11, 13 year olds. Like it just doesn't get brought up. In fact, I know A lot of Christian young people who, you know, where did you learn about sex? From the Internet? From my friends. Oh, so not your parents? No, like most, most parents even within the church, don't talk about it. Don't have the talk with their kids. And so once again, this is an element of young Christian kids are getting their sexual worldview, not from their parents who have their best interests at heart, who should be able to provide them with the biblical worldview. They're not getting it from them, they're getting it from the Internet, which is the worst place to get it from. They're getting it from influencers. They're getting it from again, their friends or whatever it may be. That's a huge issue. That's a huge problem once again, where I think church leadership not to go back to that, needs to be exhorting parents and calling parents out to say, what business do you have letting your 13 year old learn about sex from YouTube or from the Internet? What business do you have allowing your kid to be learning about that from an influencer? Shame on you is what parents need to hear, but unfortunately often don't. So Jack, thoughts on that as far as the parents and kind of refusing to talk about it or even bring it up with their kids? [00:36:34] Speaker C: Well, those sources you mentioned, one that, another one that is a big one is the sex ed class at school, which to me is one of the most insane ideas I've ever heard in my life of 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds, depending on which district you're in, where they start teaching it of a teacher who probably doesn't have your values, who is having to. Is working under the assumption that all of these kids are going to start being promiscuous at that age or soon. And so they're trying to like make it safer and prevent pregnancies and STDs and all that. And so it's being taught from that view. But you're also in a room with all of your peers, male and female, and how awkward and strange that is that, you know, they maybe got a little crush on that girl or that guy or whatever. And then you've got kids these days, was it a quarter of Gen Z kids? And now that we're coming up with the alphas are the ones coming into this are, you know, one out of four, one out of three says they're LGBT on some level. So a lot of the 31%. Yeah, 31%. So a lot of the kids in that class are saying they're that. And so they're having to address that side of it like. [00:37:35] Speaker A: So yeah, I'm going to go ahead and this is a bad idea, right? [00:37:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:37] Speaker C: And none of this from a Christian worldview. And so A, I mean we don't you guys know where we stand on public schools. But B, even if you have to send your kid, they are in schools, get the exemption from that class. And I know like, I think it was California was fighting to make it illegal and it might be illegal to exempt your kids from the classes where they teach that stuff and homosexuality and trans stuff, things like that. It's unbelievable what they're trying to get in kids heads. So you start there with the problem with that, but it's even way before that with my little 3, 4, 5 year olds and now the oldest one's seven promoting marriage, a daddy and a mommy. Okay, that's a really good thing. And hey, you know, we're praying that someday you get married and God brings a man that you can get married to into my son, a woman that you can get married to and you guys can have kids and Lord willing and all of these things saying it's a good thing because we also talk a lot about the putting off marriage and how many Christian kids. I don't know if I want to do that. I don't know if I want kids. I want my kids to want that. I want to keep these things going. And you have to put these ideas in and it's when you've established that of like, hey, this is the only way to have a family. This is the only right way to do this is to pursue this. And you want to marry a Christian and things like that as they get older, that opens the door for. Because even when they watch a movie or they watch a TV show, you're having to establish only men and women get married. Right. We're not showing you any of the stuff otherwise you've got to get that into their heads. And then you get to have the conversations about, okay, well where do babies come from? And all of these other things. But that foundation is laid literally at 3 and 4 years old when my daughter is playing dress up of no, you're not actually gonna go be Mrs. Girlboss. And not that she's got that in her head, but like you're establishing this is good and proper for you to want to be a wife and a mom. And so that leads. That's creating the stepping stones toward proper sexuality and those discussions later on. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Why doesn't she have a girl boss attitude? Because your Wife is submissive because Allison's a doll, and she sees that from her mom. And so it starts with the parents getting it right. I think our divorce culture has led to the crisis in sexuality that we have for multiple reasons. First off, you have people that, from the earliest foundation, these kids are watching their parents split up, and they go, why would I want that? Mom and dad were married for 25 years, and they split up. Why would I want that? I'm not gonna do that. And so they pull away from it. They're gonna want sex, but they don't want the marriage that goes with it. They don't want covenant, and so they. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Don'T want the commitment. Right? Yeah, correct. [00:39:58] Speaker B: You got people that in their 40s, they're still very much in their sexuality, are getting divorced. Well, now they got to go find somebody. Are they gonna stay? You know, a lot of times they don't stay pure in that. [00:40:07] Speaker C: Even if it's not divorce, if mom is not mom and dad is not dad, you know, in those traditional roles, it messes the kids up as to what they think they're supposed to be. You know, my son told me the other day, so what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a dad. Like, that's really cool like that. You know, he sees it's good to have a family. It's good to have sons and daughters and all of those things, but you have to instill that in them. Hey, folks, I know a lot of you are looking for more Christian content for your daily walk. Of course, we often tell you about Focus plus and the daily devos and other content that goes up there. Of course, we have this podcast, Think Deeper. We have the Jim podcast Godly Young man by Joe and Will. But I want to also tell you about the Church Reset podcast feed. Every article I put out on my website, jackwilkie Co, goes up on the Church Reset podcast feed, along with audio from all of the videos I post to the Focus Press YouTube video like cultural Breakdown, Masculinity Monday and Thursdays through the text. And so if you're looking for something to listen to while you're doing chores around the house or on the go, check out the Church Reset podcast feed. Subscribe to get all the latest content as it comes out four or five days a week. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Right, right. And to your feminist point, like, having those roles is really important. We're seeing a lot of transgenderism rise. Why? Because at the very earliest thing, especially in public schools, they are eroding this idea. They're seeing it in media, they're seeing it. And I see a Netflix that I think Elon Musk just boycotted Netflix based off of a show where they're bringing in transgender to a young kid show. So they're already blurring the lines of what is concrete. Right. And at a young age. And parents can do this when they blur the lines of the gender roles. We're all kind of one. Like there's hierarchy in the home and that's what's healthiest for the kids from a detachment perspective. And everything else is what's healthiest. But yeah, I mean, as I think about kind of this discussion of where parents get it wrong and not having this conversation, even if they do so often they're having it too late. Well, we had to talk. Your kid was 14. He's been looking at porn for the last three years. Like, you waited too long to have this conversation. The world has discipled your kid sexually since 6 years old and he was watching Coco Melon or whatever like you've been. And the ads that come on. He's been discipled sexually and you come in at 13, 14, 15 years old. We're going to have the talk. It's a one time talk. You look just as squirrely about it. You know, man, I don't really don't want to have this talk, but I guess we'll just kind of get it over with and get it done. The kid, I mean, and I literally had one guy, he's like, the kid knew more about sex than I did. Like when they went to have the conversation, the kid knew more of the terms. The kid. Those things happen, man. I mean, that absolutely happens. That's not just. I think that's on a TV show as well as like a trope. But no, that legitimately happens in real life where the kids know more about the parents by the time they do go to do it. So what does that leave for the kids? They either the world is telling them they are sexual inherently, like that is. And they are. But like that's the biggest part of you. And so it either becomes the biggest part of your identity or becomes a secret part of your identity. The secret part leads to things like porn addiction. The overt part leads to things like transgenderism. LGBTQ is your life revolves around sexuality, right? Yeah, it's your identity or it's completely in the shadows. And yes, you're sexual, but you really can't be. So it's a lot of repression and things like that. We've got to as parents find that middle ground of we're not repressing it, it is a part of you, It's a beautiful part of you, and it's all good for a specific place and things like that, but it's also not every part of you. And so it is a mere part. Not all of you, not your identity. It's a part of your identity. If we could get that right, that'd be great. But parents are waiting so long to have these conversations. If they ever do that. The kids have already established which one they're going to choose one way or the other. Whether it's a secret or whether it's overt. It's their biggest part. Parents are. They are the main culprits for why this is such a disaster. But the other thing, and just, just. [00:43:50] Speaker A: Briefly, Joe, one thing I wanted to say about this is I think it's such a. And I mean, obviously is such a wasted and missed opportunity when you consider the fact that kids from the time that they are young, and this is something I can't speak to because my. My kids are this age, my kids, my oldest son, he wants to do and be everything that I am. I have so much influence and so much sway over him. If I want him to be good at football, guess what? All I got to do is spend, you know, a couple hours a week throwing a football with him. And he. He desperately wants to do that. You know, if I want him to be a big reader, all I got to do is stick books in front of him and tell him that I want him to read. If I. If I tell him, hey, buddy, I want you to watch this basketball game with me or I want you to go play. Like, he wants to do everything that I want to do. He wants to be everything that I want to be. And obviously my daughter is too, and kind of coming along in that way as well. I have so much sway, so much influence over my kids from the time that they're two years old. That continues on. Obviously. I think public school diminishes that quite a bit when, now, after that, they want to be around their friends and they don't, you know, parents are kind of looked at negatively. But my point is, like, with as much sway and influences his parents have on their kids, from the time a boy is again two years old, he wants to be just like his dad. He wants to do and say and believe everything his dad does, you have the perfect window, the perfect opportunity to say son, to Jack's point. First of all, here's why being a dad is great. Here's why being a husband is great, here's why leading a family is awesome. But even beyond, you know, those type of things. Son, let me teach, let me, let me tell you about this. Let me teach you about sex. Obviously I'm not three years old, but you know, as they're growing up, let me tell you why this is a really good thing within marriage. Let me give you kind of the perspective and worldview on it. Again, we just have such a great opportunity in every area of our lives as parents to share the things that we're passionate about, to get the kids into things that we're into, to develop their interests, obviously. Are they going to have some interests of their own sometimes? Sure, of course. But man, we have so much influence over that. Not just with the things that they're passionate about or interested in, but also about what they believe on things. And this is where I just wish Christian parents would not miss the mark so badly when they again and to your point, Joe, maybe wait till they're 14 or 15 or they're again about out of high school already. You miss so much time to shape your kid's worldview on sex, to shape your kids belief on sex and kind of their, their perspective, all those things, their identity around it. You missed your window. That's on you as a parent. That's on you specifically as a dad who should be leading the, leading the charge in this discussion. You miss the window, you miss the mark. And I think that's shameful. I think that's just something that once again, church leadership needs to call these dads out to say, what business do you have not talking to your kids about this? What business? I mean, again, you got dads that think their kids are going to be pro baseball players. You, you know, they're throwing ball with their kid in the backyard. You got, you know, parents that think their kid is going to be just the, you know, get a 36 on the ACT and get a full ride to Harvard. They're definitely making sure they get their homework done and talking about those things. They're missing the mark on this. It's like, well, you know, I guess they'll figure it out. That's shameful. Us parents have just not, not only is it once again a responsibility, it's a privilege to be able to shape your kids desires to be able to shape your kids again, passions and interests and beliefs and worldview on things. Let's not miss our opportunity, let's not miss our window here Joe, man, that's. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Such a great point. Such a great point. That's why I would point people to this discussion or to this book. Rather touchy subjects. It goes into starting at a young age and goes all the way up of like how to have age appropriate conversations about, as Jack talked about mom and a dad. This is what it is at 3, 4 years old and then all the way up into puberty and what that discussion looks like and getting into to more and more subjects. What people have to be aware of is that there are millions, hundreds of millions, probably billions of people in the course of the world that will go to hell because of sexuality. Like we have to let. We have. We had to sit in that one for a second. There are most likely going to be billions of people over the course of the world that will go to hell because they have unchecked sexual desires. It's real stinking important, really, really important to get this one right. And so the idea like that's not. [00:47:53] Speaker A: Figured out, just sit out, right? [00:47:55] Speaker B: Correct. Well, you know, well, my kids will figure it out. I kind of figured it out like, yeah, after you slept with a ton of people and maybe while you're still struggling with your addiction, like some people. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Don'T just even if you didn't, the world is different now than it was for you 30 years ago. [00:48:08] Speaker B: Correct, Correct. I mean the. With the invention of something like TikTok itself, how that's Pandora's box, man. I mean, that opens up if your kids are on there, as you said will shame on you. If you have kids that are unchecked on their devices, that TVs in their room and computers and unchecked iPads and devices and things like that. Like you are opening, basically you're allowing Satan to enter your kid's room and you think that that's perfectly fine. And if this was anything other than sexuality, anything other than, oh, I don't like discussing that. You would have a major problem with that. If you knew that a pedophile was going to come and groom your kid in the room, guess what you do. Well, now we have all of these people that are sexually grooming our kids to be sexual, you know, to struggle with sexuality for the rest of their lives potentially. I've worked with guys in their 70s that are still sex addicts in their 70s. So we look at and go, well, they'll kind of come out of it eventually. They don't always do that. These are Christian men. They don't always do that. We have to get real about this and realize it starts at a young age. And I love how you said that, Will. It's such a privilege to be able to shape our kids. This is another thing. I'll shut up after this. But we talk a lot about, like, arousal templates in the world of sexuality. And people think, well, that's just kind of inherent. That's a nature thing. The arousal templates, what you're aroused at, even if it's weird stuff, bdsm, whatever it is, like, it's just something that kind of. You came wired with. That's not true at all. That's not true at all. Your arousal templates are formed by your earliest childhood experiences. The things that you get aroused by so often are connected to traumatic experiences so often are connected to what you saw. Mom and dad, if you happen to see things, arousal templates are. So the things that you will enjoy in marriage are set up by young childhood experiences and often by the parents and what the parents are talking about and how they talk about these things and what the kid experiences and things like that. So when we have kids that at a young age are hearing things on the school bus or seeing things in their school or seeing things online, that is now shaping their arousal template for what they're going to be aroused by in marriage. It's a really big deal to get this right. So please, please take this seriously. To Will's point, to Jack's point, to my point, please take this seriously when it comes to parenting. Trying to get this right. [00:50:17] Speaker A: Joe, I wanted to spend. While you're talking about, while we're talking about parenting here, Joe, I wanted to. I know you just got done talking, but tee you off on something that you put on here about kind of the idea of parents that place sexual desirability for their kids on a bit of a pedestal. And I think it's similar to, again, the dad who thinks his son is gonna go play pro baseball. It's his pride and joy, right? It's his. It's. It's a testament to the dad that his son is, is gonna, is. Is really good at sports, right? So he kind of revels in it more specifically for the females. I think this is where parents can go wrong quite a bit is kind of the focus for the. It's a really good thing for them if their daughter is considered hot, right? If their daughter is considered really good looking and son as well. It's not just a girl thing. Um, and so because of that, parents allow the immodest clothes, they allow the, the, the Social media post with a two piece bathing suit. They allow the, you know, the, the shorts, the. They post the pictures of their beautiful daughter in her horrific, horrifically immodest prom dress because sexual desirability, again, the dad and the mom kind of like, yeah, our kids got it going on type of thing. That's wrong. That is a serious problem to again, because first of all, it's very selfish. It's a look. I produce this really good looking kid that, that says something about me. You know, again, whether it's athletically or in this instance, talking about physical attraction. Physical looks speak to that a little bit. Joe, I know I just kind of asked you to talk about it and then kind of took the next couple minutes of it. But I think it's a fascinating discussion when we're talking about the idea that parents don't want to talk about sex from a biblical perspective. But man, they sure are quick to again promote the beauty of their daughters or the, you know, the good looking kids that they have. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Why? [00:52:00] Speaker A: Because it speaks highly of them. It's a testament to them and their genetics or whatever it is. It's fascinating. But what thoughts would you have? I know you're the one that put it on the outline before you do. [00:52:09] Speaker C: I want to give a counterweight on the other side so you can kind of walk the middle here sometimes with the courtship, you know, hey, relationships only for marriage, which I believe in. But it also, and honestly my own personal experience, it was like awkward as a 15 or 16 year old boy with family to be like, I think that girl is really pretty. You know, I like her, I like things about her or whatever else. Well, you're not getting married, so don't think about it like, but you are. And so then that internalizes those thoughts. [00:52:35] Speaker A: That cause a problem. [00:52:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And so, you know, I have no intention of raising my kids to hit 14, 15 years old and just be out there, you know, hitting up all the guys, all the girls, whichever one, you know, I'm a kid, I'm talking about. But on the other hand, like, you do want to have this discussion of like, yeah, you can. You're gonna have a crush on somebody you're gonna like, how do. So I don't know, like I say, just kind of walk the, the middle of the, the road on that one for us. [00:53:00] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll task Joe with that one. Here you go. [00:53:03] Speaker C: See, isn't it nice to have an expert? It's not just us three, you know. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Experts, a nice word, but a bit of big word. There. But no, I think the so to the sexual desirability. I don't think parents realize how much they are sexualizing their children when they do that. That the kids now feel the need to put on sexually and find that they're worth. And that's the biggest thing, is that their worth and value is often tied to their sexual desirability. We have to be very careful walking that line of yeah, it's great to be liked, it's great to be, you know, it's great to look good. We talk about this on the godly MM podcast. Like dress nice, man, you know, pick a cologne, whatever it is. It's not to attract all the females. As much as, yeah, you want to feel good in your body. You want to make sure that you're not some, some loser with greasy hair that is doing nothing in his parents basement all the time. Like you want to get out there and meet people. But we have to be very careful as parents not to tie their worth and value to how many people think that they're hot or to the sexual experience of wow, she's, you know. Well, my daughter's just, she's got a great figure. [00:54:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:54:04] Speaker B: And that kids will learn my worth is tied to that. Well, what happens if they are rejected? What happens if they are dumped? What happens if kids are really mean in class? We have to be able to separate and all of a sudden it's like, well, no, you still have value. Yeah, but you've been telling me for the last five years, or showing me rather that my worth is tied to my own sexual desirability. So that's just a thing for parents. But to your point, Jack, we got to be okay with kids being sexual. We got to understand that that's a thing. And I know we're using the big boy terms I suppose on the podcast, but masturbation is a real big question for kids at 13, 14, 15 years old sometimes, obviously these days, a lot earlier, 10, 11, 12, we have to have answers for those things. We got to know. And so we got to be able to get to the point where we can have these conversations and a guy can say, I'm really interested in that girl over there. You go, man, that's. I love that, you know, I love that you're interested in somebody. On the other hand, you know, we go talk with her, you can be friends with her, you can, you can work on it's not your game and picking her up, you can work on just talking with that female. But keep in mind we're not really ready for the relationship yet. The relationship is going to be when you're ready to take care of her and things like that. But I have no problem with you going and talking to somebody. We want to make it where we don't have a bunch of awkward kids that are like, how do you talk to a girl? No, go talk to everybody. [00:55:16] Speaker A: That's the rapid homeschoolers have, right? [00:55:17] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Talk to guys, talk to girls, get out there. But you're not looking to schmooze and put your best foot forward. You're looking to say, I'm just me, Joe's Joe. And if they accept Joe, great. And if they reject Joe, okay, you know, that's on them. I'm going to be me. And if I find that I'm rejected by everybody, sure, I can pivot and figure out why. But we have to build a kid's worth and sense of self up internally that is not connected to his sexual desirability. That will come in time if he has a lot of worth in other areas. That's what we're finding, is that women, and not just finding now we've known this for a long time. Women are attracted to guys that know themselves, guys that are, that have a positive sense of self, a good self esteem. Women are attracted to that. That's why they go after the bad guy. Because the bad boy on the Harley has confidence, he knows who he is, versus the goody two shoes guy at church. Women are going to choose the guy that seems more confident. Well, why can't we have both of those? The guy who goes to church and the guy who's ultra confident. So the sexual desirability is a farce. You see guys that get girls and you look at the guy, all of us guys are looking at him going. [00:56:15] Speaker A: There'S no way, right? [00:56:17] Speaker B: That guy, there's no way. He pulled that guy like, look, man, he's got it. He's just got the touch because he knows who he is, he's confident and that attracts females. And so that's what I'm going to tell my kids is like, it's great if you're attracted to somebody else, but you got to know yourself first. You got to know your worth. You got to know your place in Christ. You got to know your place in this family. Because once you have an understanding of where you fit in this family, you'll have a much better understanding of how you'll fit in your own family. So you're not going to go try to recreate a family ahead of time. No, you're here for a time. But it's really good that you are enjoying like that you enjoy hanging out with other people that you happen to have a crush on somebody very normal. We want to normalize it for them. But let them know your worth and value cannot be tied into going and getting that girl or whatever it may be. Does that make sense? I don't know if that answers it. [00:57:00] Speaker A: But yeah, no, I think that'd be my take on Guys, I know we're getting close to our hour mark and we've got to bit of our outline left to go here. I think the next thing that I'll just ask and we've kind of already talked about it and then Jack, I'll let you kind of decide where we want to go after this. With us already getting close to that hour mark again, but we kind of beat around it, you know, hovered around the idea of like kind of what age should you have the talk, what age should you discuss this with your kids? And I think kind of what we've come around on. And once again I'll yield the floor to Joe with his expertise and kind of walking people through this. The earlier the better, essentially. And not just the earlier the better, but also it doesn't need to just be a one time dump, dump all the knowledge and then never talk about it again. Or you know, basically nothing leading up to needs to be a, you know, at a certain, you know, at five or six years old you're talking to them about marriage and again, husband, wife, eight, nine years old, maybe you're talking about a few more things. Then you get to the point where yes, you do reveal, you know, kind of tell them, okay, this is how sex works and this is what sex is for, for and all the blessings that come with it. And so Joe, I guess maybe I'll turn the discussion to you with the question of like what advice would you have to parents? And again, I know you have not personally gone through this with your kids yet, but I think you're probably far more qualified than either Jack or I to kind of give this answer. What advice would you give as far as again, maybe it's a, you know, do you, because I've heard this debate, do you make it a super formal thing where you go out to dinner with your kids or you can take them on a weekend trip or do you make it super casual and kind of treat it with maybe not nonchalance but like this is not that big a deal. Let me just Tell you about it and then we'll go on to whatever else activity we had planned for the evening. You know what I mean? There is kind of that concern and question that people have about do I make this a big deal, Do I treat it because it is a big deal or do I treat it not like it's a big deal? To stall the drama a little bit. What thoughts would you have on that? Just kind of general advice for this question of like having to talk with your kids. [00:58:56] Speaker C: I'm gonna jump in here just for a second. If you are in the habit of having one on one conversations with your kids about serious issues before this, this is not the dramatic thing that it should be. And like, and I don't just mean about sexual things or about touchy subjects, but like sitting there talking to them about life, talking to them, answering their questions about the Bible. Yeah, like if you've got a one on one rapport, this is just one in a number of other ones. If it's man, I've never set foot in the kid's bedroom to have a discussion with them and I've got to go do that one. Yeah, it's gonna be really weird for both of you. But like, hey, if this is something mom and dad have actively pursued this kind of relationship, that's a whole lot easier to jump into. So I just wanted to throw that in before you get going. [00:59:36] Speaker B: I mean, that's, that's my answer. I think that's perfect. You want to be the kid's expert or you want to be the expert in your kid's life. You want them turning to you when they have questions about man. So and so said this, you know, at church or at school or whatever it may be. I don't even know what to think about that or, you know, and it's always cringy for kids to talk to parents. I don't think it has to be. I think if you made a habit of going into your kids room and having these conversations like, man, I remember when I was your age and I did this and I did that and whatever and not proud of this or I thought this was really good. Like you're opening your world up for your kid, you're modeling for him what you want them to do, which is to open their world up for you. And so have these conversations include some personal stories, make it very conversational and casual throughout his life or her life. I have a real problem when they make it just about the males. Sexuality is for females and males both. I think it's really important for the females to have a positive sense of sex just as much as the males. That's why we're seeing a lot of problems in marriage as women that think that it's disgusting and just for the males, it's not. But yeah, you want to have that conversation with your kids where it's, man, it just flows. It's just what you do. And so it's not a big moment or event. Like, yeah, we talked about puberty and we talked about masturbation and then we talked about sex. Then we talked about oral size as we went through and had these conversations from 9, 10, 11, 12 years old up to 16 years old and age appropriate conversations. And it was just kind of a. Yeah. As the need arose or as something came up in culture or as you see something on the news, you're just using those opportunities to have those conversations. It doesn't have to be a scary thing. It can be something that is consistently done. [01:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that answer. I like that answer. Jack, I'll hand it to you. How much longer do we want to go here? We're right at an hour. [01:01:15] Speaker C: How much time do you guys have? Yeah, we're right at an hour. You know, we've kind of gotten to most of what we have. There's a part in there that the male female thing, especially with teenagers, there's kind of that trope about girls get to talk about modesty, guys get to talk about, you know, lust, and that's kind of done to death or that's what they get at every camp or everything like that. And it's important that they have that discussion. But getting the. I think something that's important is that broader teaching on gender roles that it's not to me, and this is kind of a CS Lewis kind of thing, that the answer to all of our society problems, societal problems, is Christian marriage is wives being wives, husbands being husbands, because the family flows from that. And you can develop that, you can grow it generationally, which obviously we're so big on here in this podcast. And so the teaching, yeah, we're talking so much about the sexual side of it, but it is, as we said a couple times, that all encompassing thing of what a man is supposed to be. And the sexual side of that. There is part of that. And again, in not a just don't do kind of way, like, hey, being attractive is a good thing. Being a guy that a woman's gonna want to marry is a good thing. And there's certain things you have to do the same thing for women, teaching them not just modesty, but like the modest spirit, a gentle and quiet spirit, which is the opposite, is what is taught to girls today and so on that. I don't know if you guys have much you want to say on that as far as, like, what we teach teenage boys, teenage girls. And as I said, it starts really young, but like that the sexuality is one piece of this broader puzzle. And if we just address the sexuality, it's not going to fit the rest of the puzzle. But if we address the puzzle and not have that sexuality, you're gonna have a missing piece. So bringing it all together, I think is really important. [01:03:07] Speaker A: If you wonder why, you know, as a podcast, you know, us three guys talk about gender roles and Christian men being Christian men and Christian women being Christian women so much. This is why it's. Because it impacts everything. It impacts not, you know, leave sexuality out of it. It impacts your kids faithfulness, it impacts your. Your marriage health, your happiness in your marriage. It impacts how strong is the church, how active is the church, how evangelistic is the church, how spiritually discipled is the church, how much knowledge does the church have? Why? Because the church is made up of families. The church is made up of families. And so the weaker the families are, the weaker the Bible knowledge, the weaker the willingness to serve, the weaker the kind of gumption to get out and go do stuff, then the weaker the church is going to be. And so, man, not to completely just echo your point, Jack, but solid, healthy, happy Christian marriages, again, where a man as a Christian understands his roles as a Christian husband and father, a woman understands her roles as a Christian wife and mother that are discipling their kids, man, the impact that that can have on the community and obviously the church and then the world at large, it's immeasurable. It truly is immeasurable when you consider how many different aspects this touches. Producing, producing children into the world. Not just who will, you know, show up to church every other week and be considered faithful, quote, unquote, and, you know, get baptized, but not really do anything. Instead of that, you know, producing faithful Christian warriors is the word that I like to use. You know, guys and girls who have a depth of Bible knowledge, guys and girls who want to get out and serve God, guys and girls who want to raise a faithful family themselves. Again, not just of kind of spotty church attenders. And again, you can kind of sort of consider them faithful, but not really, not that at all. But faithful Christian warriors who can go run for office can hold jobs in the community and really promote Christian values. And I could just keep going on and on and on to discuss kind of the impact that all comes from a healthy Christian marriage, a happy Christian marriage. And where this all comes back to, and I'll hand to you, Joe, is if your kid enters marriage with a warped view of sexuality, with a warped or perverted view, or maybe not even perverted, but just incomplete view of biblical sexuality, that is going to present obstacles in their marriage, that's going to present obstacles in their spirituality. And so everything that we as parents and the church, we started with you kind of discussing the church, everything that we can do to get our Christian young people, as they get into marriage, past those obstacles and kind of well prepared, how much better off is the church going to be for that? How much more, once again, well prepared, are young people going to be to raise their families, to pursue great, to strive for greatness? As we talk about the Gallium podcast within their community, their career, the church, all those things, man, it certainly it all seems to boil down to how healthy and spiritually solid is the foundation of your marriage. And this sexuality discussion plays a big part in that. [01:06:01] Speaker B: Sex is the pinnacle of intimacy. So it is the thing upon which or out of which spiritual and emotional intellectual intimacy will flow. It will flow toward a really good sex life. So you may not have a great sex life in your marriage and your kids may never know that. They will absolutely feel the effects of the reason you don't have a good sex life, which is, we're not emotionally intimate, we're not spiritually connected, we're not spiritually intimate with one another. We're not friends. The intellectual intimacy. We don't talk about those things. Your kids may have no idea what's going on in the bedroom, but they will absolutely know the reason, basically the reasons why what's going on in the bedroom is not good. So sexuality is important. It's important to get right, but it's important to get the underlying things right that a good sexuality will arise out of. So if you are, as a man and a woman, husband and wife, father and a mother, if you are working on the other elements of intimacy, the other elements of really creating a home where we live open, vulnerable, authentic, loving, healthy lives that we care for one another, we talk about things with one another, we are. We just live openly with each other and let one another know where we stand, appropriate attachment is formed. All of those things go into it. Your sex life is going to be great and your kids are going to be great sexually speaking, because all the foundation is going to be there for a healthy sexuality to arise out of. They're not going to have problems on the sexual front. Anytime somebody comes to me, and I deal with this obviously a lot marriage has come to me with sexual problems. I never talk about sex for like the first, probably several sessions after. Tell me about the rest of your marriage. Tell me what's going on in the rest of your marriage. You will solve your sexuality by looking at every other part of your life. There are secrets kept. There are, you know, no emotions that are pushed down or emotions that are, you know, just screamed at one another. There's other issues. Your kids will know those things and that might affect them more than anything else. And so, yes, sexuality is really important to get right, but we will get it right if to these guys points. We are creating godly homes that are open with one another, that open up the Bible with one another, that talk about all sorts of things, that love each other through and through, that work through thick and thin. It's not always just about having a happy home. Sometimes there's conflict. We work through it. That's what we do. We love one another. There's covenantal relationship that is at the core of the entire household. Holding it together. We're not going anywhere. We're working this out because we love one another. That is the best thing you can do to establish a kid's healthy life. And that will establish their sexuality better than anything else, in my opinion. Having good attachment and letting them know we love each other no matter what. [01:08:24] Speaker C: Thoughts, Joe, you believe in attachment. [01:08:28] Speaker A: You've never mentioned that before. [01:08:29] Speaker B: Have you ever? Have you ever heard that? [01:08:30] Speaker C: It's news to me. Tell us about that. [01:08:31] Speaker B: I've ever talked about that. [01:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:33] Speaker C: Sorry I had to give you the business, but I really do want to commend Joe. Obviously, Will and I had thoughts here, but this is Joe's wheelhouse. And as you can see, he knows the stuff. He. This is really something he's passionate about. And as we all agree, this really, really matters. And so I really appreciate you kind of driving the ship on this one, Joe. Hopefully this has been helpful to churches, to families. It's just too important to leave it unaddressed again, to let the world disciple our kids, disciple our members. So Will brought the idea for the episode. I'm really glad he did. It really is crazy. This is just to let you guys under the hood a little bit here. We were told recently pornography is not a word that should be mentioned. [01:09:12] Speaker B: In church. [01:09:13] Speaker C: Yeah, all of this, there's a time and a place. You don't need to be talking about everything from the pulpit. But yeah, I mean, to me, that's a doctor that won't mention cancer. Like, what are we talking about? So we have to have these conversations. As always, leave your comments here. If you're watching on YouTube the like and subscribe, I'm gonna remind you that if you're watching on YouTube, that helps other people find it too. Yeah, we still got one of those in a while. So, you know, we get so many nice messages, emails, things like that. We really appreciate you guys listening and there's been a lot of them lately. And that just means a lot to us, keeps us going, going. So any feedback you can give us, and of course, focus +focus.org/ you can join us there. Get a an extra episode every week in the deep end. Send your comments in and we'll get to answer you directly there. But anything else, send us your ideas for episode 200. [01:10:04] Speaker A: Let us know. [01:10:04] Speaker C: That's right. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Yes. [01:10:05] Speaker C: Thank you for writing that back up. All right, guys, we'll talk to you on the next one. Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars, and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org.org donate thanks again for listening.