Rethinking Bible Class

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome back into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Your co host will here I'm joined by Joe and Jack Wilkie. Not to speak for him, but Joe and I are very excited to be back after a week off. Very special thank you and shout out to Daniel Mayfield and Titus Anderson for hosting with Jack last week and filling filling in our spot. Joe and I, we're out of town enjoying some very nice 70 degree weather. We are now back home in Tennessee where it's like 35 degrees. Not ideal, but really, I really enjoyed listening to the episode last week. If you didn't get a chance to listen. If you can stomach not having Joe and I on the episode, I know that's going to be really hard for people to get over. I know that's the main reason why they listen, of course. No, just kidding. [00:00:51] Speaker C: But it was really good. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Really enjoyed Jack and Titus and Daniel cover six different ways to read your Bible. But anyway, glad to be back. We are looking forward to this week's episode especially before I get into that real fast, I did want to make our listeners aware of a couple kind of seminars conferences that we got coming up on February 7th. All three of us actually will be in Leoma, Tennessee at the Leoma Church of Christ for the second ever Think Deeper seminar. I know we of course we had one a couple years ago. We have another Think deeper seminar again February 7th. It's just going to be in the morning. I think the timeframe is like 9am to 12:30. So if you're in the area, we'd love to see you at the Leoma Church of Christ. It's going to again be 9 to 12:30 or so. Lunch will be provided. We'd love to see. All three of us will be there. So really looking forward to that. And then I think a couple of us, maybe all of us, not sure, but at least some of us will be at cyc, the Challenge Youth Conference. We'll have a booth there set up. So come by and say hi. Got those events both coming in February. Like I said, the Thinger Deeper Seminars February 7th, CYC is like the third weekend in February 21st, 22nd, something like that. [00:02:00] Speaker A: So. [00:02:01] Speaker B: But guys, let's go ahead and get into the topic for today. I'm really looking forward to it. We've had a lot of and in fact some of more of our popular most liked episodes are episodes where we take an element of Sunday morning and kind of focus on that, the worship service. We've had episodes about kind of reexamining Worship or reimagining worship and, you know, ways we can improve singing and the sermon and all that, that kind of stuff. It was, Jack, I think, that had the idea that the one area we haven't really looked at yet, as far as a kind of in depth examination of for Sunday is Bible class. The Bible class hour. I know we've probably talked about it here and there, maybe had different blocks throughout episodes that we've had previously, but never a full episode devoted to it. And so we got a lot of ground to cover today. We're going to look at kids classes, we're going to look at adult classes. Some of the interesting questions that arise, maybe even bordering on controversial questions that arise from Bible class and get into kind of the different styles and stuff. So I'm really looking forward to it. Jack, I'll hand it to you next. Any introductory thoughts that you have as we get into this week's episode? [00:03:02] Speaker C: It is one of those. I kind of. We were talking about the topic and the more I thought about it, the more it's like, this is a really fascinating thing that why we do it. This is a tradition, you know, but it's not. It's a bad. Not a bad tradition. I'm not against it, but some people are. And so we'll explore that a little bit, but also, like how to make the best use of it and things like that. It's one of those that we just kind of started doing. And I know there's attempts here and there to kind of try and spruce it up or get more out of it and things like that. But it is just something that you just kind of know what you're gonna get. You show up, somebody's gonna be up there, they're gonna teach through some material they prepared or a book they've got or whatever. And I don't know, I think there is definitely a lot to reconsider here. So I'm glad we're taking a look at it. [00:03:46] Speaker A: I was a little shocked that we had not covered it, honestly, when you said that. It's like surely 200 whatever episodes we are in, like, have we not hit that at all? Because you're right, Will. We do try to hit all the, you know, the Sunday morning things. And obviously we dissected worship, I think at least a couple different times or in a couple different ways and things like that. Yeah. When we put. Will, you did a great job. Jack and Will worked on the outline together and we all just kind of added some things. Will put some really good Notes on the outline. And there's so much to get into. And I'm very interested to get into some of these questions, things like women speaking in Bible class, things like family integration, some things that maybe you've heard or maybe you've discussed or thought about. We're going to try to tackle those and, yeah, get into it. So before we do that, though, I do think it's important to hit some of the history and really try to dig into how we got here specifically as it pertains to. We're going to break it into children's classes and then probably spend the bulk of the time on adult classes. But as we get into children's classes, my understanding. Understanding is correct me if I'm wrong. This is where the Bible classes initially started. Correct. Was for children. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:51] Speaker B: So obviously Sunday school is kind of the original phrase of it. And we'll give a little bit of history here. It's not going to be very much. And the main reason for that is because people don't get on the podcast to listen to history lessons, essentially. But as Joe said, it is important. So what started. It really started over in Europe as essentially an effort to biblically educate poor working children. There were children working 12 hour shifts in factories and just had no biblical education whatsoever in these Sunday schools. The two names that come up are Robert Raikes is the one that you'll probably find the most of. And then William King are guys that are credited most often with starting the first Sunday schools over In Europe, late 18th century, over in England. But, yeah, essentially these guys were seeing all these young kids that, yeah, they were poor, they were working hard, didn't have any biblical education, and that's what they set out to do. But what's interesting is when it started, it wasn't for an hour and it wasn't before worship. It was like a 9 to 4 type of almost full day of class. That was Sunday, literally, Sunday school, and that's why they called it that. And so that's kind of the origin of it. Obviously, it migrated over to the United States around the same time frame, late 18th century, early 19th century for that. And so obviously that has gotten us into where we are now, which is it kind of precedes worship. In some cases, it's right after the order differs, or maybe we can get into that later. But essentially it is around the same time as worship. There's classes now for all ages. It's not just for kids. And we've kind of abandoned the term Sunday school as well. Just Kind of Bible class or Bible study hour or whatever it is. And it's just kind of an hour that it's, you know, we don't view it as corporate worship. It's more so just hey, let's, let's talk about the Bible if we're adults. Let's study the Bible if we're adults and let's teach kids the Bible if there's kids around. And so again, very, very brief history that not very detailed at all, could have gone a lot more into it but again, Robert Raikes, William King, kind of the two guys names to remember, late 18th century England. And again it started out very different than what it is now. It was a lot more involved, it was a lot more, it was very noble intention I think. I mean this one story I read when I was researching it and then I'll hand it to one of you guys if you want to get into some of these questions is I think it was Robert Raikes that basically was listening to all these young kids that were cursing, using foul language, picked it up in the factories, whatever it was. And that kind of spurred him on to be like man, we need to biblically educate these kids. And so I thought that was cool. I didn't, I didn't know research enough to know what denomination or whatever it was that Robert Rakes was, but didn't view it as important. However, he saw a need and tried to fill it. So I think that's pretty cool and just something as we get started with this episode that, yeah, pretty, pretty noteworthy that that was his reason for starting it. But guys, any comments on the history before we kind of get into the main questions that we have here for this kids class section? [00:07:54] Speaker C: It's fascinating I think about the downstream effects that maybe again that you're saying his intentions were very good and I think a lot of good has come from it. But on the other hand with, and I was looking into it a little bit. So it's like what did they do before that? How did they teach the Bible before that? Well, one of the things was, and this is where you kind of see those old classic sermons, Jonathan Edwards or whatever. That's why you had hour long sermons that were very deep, very textual and it made us, we talk, we're real big advocates of Worship isn't for visitors. Well, it kind of has become that and in a sense it's kind of like, well, the real hungry Christians come for the Bible study hour and then the worship service is more of a pep talk. It's more of a 20 or 30 minute shorter study's not as deep. Yeah, a lot of times it's not. Yeah. And I don't think that was a great effect from that. And so it's like, well what did they do before? And it was the longer sermons. It was, they'd have the catechisms, but families were expected to do the catechisms. And so that's one that you can look at youth ministry and Sunday school and all that where it's like, well, we've got that for you. So we're going to talk about that a little bit here in this episode of the effect on youth For Better and for Worse. When that was kind of taken from when the church says we'll handle this part of it. And so yeah, those downstream effects, again as I said, this is something, a practice that we picked up. It's a tradition, it's not a biblical thing. It doesn't say thou shalt meet for an hour before worship to study the Bible. Again, a lot of good comes from it. But hey, I don't think we've thought through the downstream effects like that. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you guys think that's an interesting point because that's what came to my mind is like where are the families in that? And that doesn't say. That doesn't mean that Bible classes are inherently anti family or anything like that. Other than kids are cussing in factories, where are the parents in that situation? Well, sure, Bible class can help in those areas. It's interesting that the initial drive for that was really to kind of teach morals. Right. To help them better understand the Bible. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Sure. [00:09:56] Speaker A: But also to teach them to be better people. I'm not against that concept but as you said, Jack, we got to think about the downstream effects and have things gotten better since the introduction of this? And you know, that leads to a lot of different other questions surrounding this. I'm going to start actually we had this on the last one. I'm curious your guys thoughts on just the concept itself. There's this, the concept of family integration which is we blend. This is something that was big in the homeschool community. We blend adult and children's classes. There are no kids classes because the kids need to be learning from their parents. They need to be sitting in class and really even if the subject matter is above their head, they can still pay attention to the parent who's engaging the parent who's asking questions, who's learning. And then the parent can and then say explain to the kid after, hey, this is what's going on here? And so the concept of family integration, as I said in the homeschool community seemingly made a lot of sense. And there may be the mid-2000s, at least in the circles we were in, I don't know, seemed to be more of a big deal that people were pushing for. I don't see that as much now. But what are your guys thoughts on family integration? [00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah, so by family integration, I know you said it, Joe, but essentially for anybody who might have missed it, no kids classes, everybody's in the same room, right? One teacher, kind of one big auditorium class basically, but it's with kids there. Yeah, this was big in the homeschool community. I'm a little torn on it. And so the first thing I'll say, I'll kind of, I guess give the two sides. [00:11:23] Speaker A: And. [00:11:25] Speaker B: On the one side, on the one hand I should say, I think that we can treat kids as dumber than they are and not maybe dumb is the wrong word, but like we can water down the Bible too much for them. They can't handle this. Or you know, you got middle schoolers that you're still kind of teaching them kiddish juvenile versions of Bible classes. That's not great, man. If they're in middle school you can really just study textual stuff and give them some really difficult topics. Like you don't really need to water it down or dumb it down for them. And so I do think overall there is a. I think we could challenge them more. I think we could present them with the Bible and with more adult themes, more adult, I guess, just versions of studying the Bible than we currently do across the board. That's a generalization. I know, but that's kind of the, that's the first side of it that I'll say is I think we could do more than we're currently doing. And that sounds like to me as somebody, I've never really been a part of a church like this or anything, but the family integrated where all the kids are in the same room would help with some of that. Because you've got a guy teaching who's not really catering to your 12 year old, he's catering to teaching to the adults and they're picking things up. I think where I struggle is, okay, that's great. What about for the 4 year old? What about for the 5, 6 year old? I get the kind of, yeah, they can pick up some stuff and maybe they can, you know, it's the trickle down effect or whatever it is. Like they can, they'll Pick stuff up at the same time. I don't think that is the same as far as a value proposition goes to somebody, a teacher sitting with them, teaching them a story in God's word, teaching them something, it's one on four, one on six, whatever it is, versus they're listening to somebody teach through Romans 11 or something like that. Does that make sense? And so I think I'm more of a fan of it. As you get closer to the middle school age, middle school, high school there you really should be able to handle more adult topics. You should be able to handle the text. I still see some value in my 4 and 5 and 6 year old being able to go to a class and be able and I don't know, be taught more on their level. Because let's face it, there are things in the Bible that you need to present at different levels to some extent. If family integrated worship, I'm sure they had to have their answer for this. But how do you have a class on sex? How do you teach Song of Solomon? How do you. Again, with the middle schoolers, I think that'd be perfectly fine. Middle school and up. Of course with your six year old, I don't know that that would work super well. So that's. I'm kind of rambling there, but I guess I'm kind of drawing the line as I'm a fan of the idea for middle school and up little, you know, younger than that. I still see some value in having some kids, some kids classes, but. Jack, we'll go to you next. I'm curious your thoughts. [00:14:19] Speaker C: I like the idea for a number of reasons. One is that it is pulling from the Moses model of Deuteronomy of like I'm telling you, you go tell your kids and like they didn't have Mount Sinai for kids. It was bring your family, tell your kids to sit still and listen and then you go home and teach them. And that's one of the other things I really like about it is it places expectations. You know, I've been visiting, I've been in a number of congregations the last few months. And one of the things that becomes obvious is the lack of knowledge among the men. And so if there is an expectation, a follow up of like, you got to learn this so you can go teach your wife and if you have kids, teach your kids, I think that would do a lot to help with that. And you would also teach in such a way so as. And maybe even have. I know some churches did have household curriculum. Whether you're Single, whether you're married, whether you got married and kids take this home. This is what your family's studying this week. It's in line with what the rest of the church is doing. It really puts something, and not even just for the heads of the household, but for every member of the church. Like, this doesn't just stop here. You're not coming here and checking the box that you sat here for 45 minutes. You heard somebody read through a companion book on whatever text that they're going through. And I'm not trying to take shots at the teachers. It's just, that's. What are you getting out of that versus, if it's all right, we're coming here to equip you to go home and learn this and teach your kids. Yeah, your kids need to know the major stories of the Bible. They need to know major ideas. And I think bringing catechism back is a really good thing. That's one of those words that I think people hear and they think, well, that's Catholic. And so we don't do that. No, it just means asking questions, teaching your kids theology and biblical truths through questions. And I feel like that is very much a lost art. And so things like that, bringing those back into the church, bringing those responsibilities back to the members to teach your kids. Now, you do have a fair point there about. There's certain topics that maybe that's not the one you're going to talk about in front of the five year old. On the other hand, there were things in the Levitical law that might not have been, but they did anyway. And so maybe that's an us problem. I don't know. But I do think that's a point worth considering. But those are my thoughts on why I think it's a good idea. I say this, I don't think most churches are going to, you know, and so we're talking just theory here. But I do like the theory behind it, Joe. [00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it fosters a deeper study throughout the week. And that is one of my biggest issues with Bible classes. As you see a Bible class, you know, in the 1800s and such. I don't. I'm not a history buff or anything like that. I just know that when you make it like, okay, this is Bible hour, there are so many people that use it as, okay, that's the Bible hour of the week. You know, that's the time where we come together. Whereas something like that is intended for, okay, you do need to pass it down. And a lot of the homeschool churches, to my understanding, to my knowledge, they were pretty much enforcing that. Like, okay dads, you got to go home and teach this to your 4 year old. We need to know that you are passing this on. And so it created and fostered an environment that of course you're going to take this to the next one. You know, throughout the week you're going to be discussing the Bible class as a family around the dinner table. So it elevates the baseline. The baseline right now is like, man, if we can just eat together as a family once or twice a week, that's fantastic. A lot of Christians are even that way. This is like, well, of course you're going to be doing that. Of course you're going to be doing family worship. So of course you're going to be discussing these things during family worship. Like it takes, it elevates the baseline of what the expectation is and what we're seeing. I hate to beat a dead horse and go back to this, but you think of Orthodoxy and Catholicism, people leaving for this. Well, why? Because there's expectations put on them. They have in the Anglicanism, the common book of prayer and they have the rosary and Catholicism and things like that of like, you're just expected to do this in Orthodoxy. They have somebody that is a wiser member of the congregation that checks in on you and is more of a mentor. These are expectations. We need expectations. And I think family integrated kind of hits that. But will you hit on a point that shifting out of that a little bit? I'm with you, Jack. I think most congregations are just not going to adopt this. So it's, I don't want to say pie in the sky. Like it's a legitimate thing and some churches do it, but not very many. And I get that, though I think it is preferable for a number of reasons. On the other hand, when that's not the case, will you hit on that concept of like, when does a kid need to age out of kids classes? We talk about the youth group. We've gone off on youth groups before. I'm really not a fan of youth groups. But at some point, you know, at what point do we need to have kids be with their parents? Do you think that they should go all the way through the youth group? Or do you think there's a time where it's like, okay, the sixth, sixth grade class, fifth grade class, things like that, or they're kind of, they're at the point where they probably need to be with their parents paying attention more, not Messing around with their classes, things like that. Do you think there's ever a time where the youth should join the adults in the average setting that is not family integrated? [00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker B: To me, I think baptism is a. [00:19:17] Speaker A: Pretty. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Pretty good mark. A lot of this does depend on what is the content of the kids classes that are being taught. What is the content of the fifth grade class? If you got somebody teaching a fifth grade class and you're diving into, you know, the narrative history of the book of Acts or something, that's pretty good. That's a class I'd like to sit in, you know what I mean? And so however, if you're in your fifth grade, you know, somebody. If the content of the fifth grade class is Daniel and the lions den for the umpteenth time, okay, well that's a bit of a different story. And so, you know, it does depend. I'm not to use that as a cop out of like, well, it just depends on the topic or the content of the class. What I'll say is from my perspective, and this is gonna be, I guess, unique for all of us because all of our, you know, kids are young. Y' all Both have a 7 year old is kind of the oldest of our, all of our kids, I think baptism again, but around the high school age for sure. I might even back that up to middle school. I've used this example before. If we're expecting our middle schoolers to, you know, to read some intense literature, English literature or you know, whatever it is in school and be able to write papers on it and be able to kind of, you know, present, hey, this is what this is saying. I don't see any reason why they can't do that in, you know, other. In a biblical setting as well in adult classes or whatever it is. And again, I'm with Jack. I don't want to take shots anybody. I've sat through some adult classes where it's like, okay, my fourth grader could definitely take this in, you know what I mean? Like, it does very much depend once again on the content. And so my take on that would be middle school, high school, somewhere in that range depends on the kid. I think to Yalls point, Bible class should be viewed for kids as icing on the cake as far as the rest of the week goes. Just an extra hour on top of that. So that's why I've also heard parents who say, listen, we teach them so much Bible throughout the week. I'm not going to lose sleep over them spending an hour in a class with their friends on Sunday when we've done it for six hours the rest of the week. And I understand that and that's something that, I don't know, maybe I'll have that take when I get older. But again, 12, 13, 14, 15, somewhere in that range, I think you can start sitting in listening to some adult classes. Curious Yalls thoughts though. [00:21:29] Speaker C: Hey folks, I wanted to tell you about a couple of books from our friends over at Cobb Publishing, Holy Meg and Grow Up. Holiness is frequently ignored or minimized, but in Holy Me, Paul Clements shows that it is at the center of the Christian Life. This simple 13 lesson study explains what holiness is, how we get it, and why it matters. Designed for both personal and Bible class study, this book will both encourage and challenge you to greater levels of dedication to God and Christ. His latest book, Grow up is a simple 13 lesson study on spiritual growth designed to help Christians understand the what, the why, and the how of becoming a mature Christian. Both Holy Me and Grow up are available from Amazon.com and Cobb Publishing. I think so. I mean it's kid by kid with a lot of these things. There is the question of all right, let's say that we've had the age of accountability episode, but let's say a kid gets baptized at 12 and still in the sixth grade class or whatever and it's a woman teacher. And some people say, well now he can't be taught by a woman because he's a male Christian. But then other people say, well he's not a man, he's just a kid. And to me that all gets a little bit weird. And so do you put the 12 year old in the adult class, you bump them up to the youth group class. That's where some of these things get a little weird. It's one of those, I guess the best thing you can just say is leave it elder by elder, parent by parent to some degree, unless the elders say, hey, we don't want him to be in that class anymore. Okay, I don't know. I don't really. Yeah, go ahead. [00:22:58] Speaker B: I think if it's an adult, if it's a male who got baptized and this is why again, I will push for let's quit baptizing nine year olds. They probably don't need to be taught by a woman in my opinion. Like I think that's from a pretty plain reading. Oh, it's not a man. It's like, well, he made a man's decision to become a Christian so you can say he's not A man all you want. He made a man's decision. And so I don't personally left the. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Sixth grade class because of that. [00:23:23] Speaker B: I don't personally love the idea of a baptized 12 year old being taught by a woman, but I know there's differing opinions on that. [00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah, that is like you say, the difficulty of, okay, this is a man now. Like, well, I don't know where they should. They have been baptized. So I mean, again, I don't want to get into the age of accountability episode, but you do open this can of worms of like, when to bump them up. How much is too much? I think, to your point about like, our expectations of young people, especially their, their upper high school years, we need to be doing more and more and more to integrate them into the. And not just like, all right, you're 16, go to the adult class now. But just in general, like, hey, we expect you to show up to church events, we expect you to serve. Hey, if there's a door knocking day, we expect you to be there just like we do anybody else. [00:24:07] Speaker B: And to be able to talk to older Christians, all that kind of stuff. [00:24:10] Speaker C: Fellowship. Yeah, all those kinds of things. Because what ends up happening is they stay in their little age group clique and they get a college group and they get a singles group and they. I've seen some people that like, never felt like they could just go sit in the adult class like that. They weren't welcome. They were not. They weren't welcome. But like, I don't fit there. Where do I fit? Where's the one for me? And like, you should know the people, the adults. [00:24:31] Speaker A: You should. [00:24:32] Speaker C: And so this whole like separate junior church thing that is administered through the Bible class program is something we need to be careful with. [00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree with that. The other thing too that we've got on here, I think we've covered this before. So I spent a lot of time. What I'm not a fan of is children's church, which is separate than the Bible class hour. But essentially, even during worship, you send the fifth grade and down to a separate class so that they can do worship for themselves. That to me is the complete pendulum swing away from the family integrated to the point where you're not even worshiping together. Now. That's something that my family, I plan to continue with my kids even when they hit teenage years is, hey, during worship, you got friends, you got grandparents, whatever, you're going to sit with us. We worship together as a family. And so, yeah, I'm sure I'm not going to get much disagreement from you guys. I'm not a fan of children's worship hour, children's whatever they call it. I know at my congregation growing up, we had that Sunday night you could send your kid to children's Bible hours, what they call it. I'm not a fan of that. [00:25:34] Speaker A: Jack referenced Deuteronomy 6 earlier. That's in direct opposition to that in my opinion, like hey, train up your children in the way they should go type of thing. I know that's Proverbs 22, but you're supposed to do this at all times where the parent is there. And it's what Moses talked about, passing it down to your kids and things like that. And so some people may look at it and be like, look man, it's an hour a week. Settle down. I look at it as I'm not going to remove my kid from a very valuable, like the, the worship to God that we give on a Sunday morning or you know, Sunday night or whatever it is is the most valuable time of the week. They have to be able to learn that. So to, to put the emphasis on another Bible class for them. Oh, they're going to go learn, you know, something else. It's like they already have the Bible class hour for that. They don't need another one. They need to sit here and learn how to worship. But when we think about the Bible class before we pivot and I want to spend more time again on the adult side of things. But what is it that makes a good Bible class? Because we were talking off air about like growing up at Bear Valley and I know there are plenty of churches that do this where they use the Montessori method, especially at a younger age and really kind of help the kids with certain activities. It's very structured and can be very helpful for young kids. Others are like come there and just tell Bible stories. You know, others are sing songs, eat snacks. Exactly. Sing songs, eat snacks. I shoot the breeze, you know, talk about the football game. I don't know that sounds mean, but I've seen this. I've been at various churches where there are just differing Bible classes from the very structured to the not structured at all to. You know, we talked on the last episode about you guys. Did I? We didn't, you know, that was Titus and Daniel. But talking about the story of the Bible and understanding that perspective and how that might be very helpful for the kids. What are your guys thoughts on the most helpful things before we move on to the adults? The most helpful things for kids Bible class because it does seem like it's wasted a lot of the time. The kid comes out, maybe did a worksheet or two but by and large it wasn't structured at all. Worksheet would be nice because that would show there is some structure to it. But a lot of times it seems like a waste of time. That's very mean and I'm not trying to downplay or denigrate any of the Bible class teachers. I know that it's volunteer work and people are nice to do it. But not all Bible classes are created the same. So what are your guys thoughts on what makes a successful kids class? [00:27:46] Speaker C: This is hard for smaller churches, but it's important, it's really important that they do it is to have a sense of the curriculum of when a kid comes in, let's say at three years old, I mean when they start learning three, four, obviously you're two years old, you're going to do the days of creation, things like that. That's cool. But as they really start learning, okay, what are we going to work them through? How are we going to get them through the Bible? And that was something you mentioned. Our kids classes at the Bear Val congregation growing up, they did a really good job. You got all the way through the Old Testament, you got into the New Testament, you got a class on the book of Acts and the plan of salvation and all that. As you got a little bit older and could understand some of that stuff a little better. And so I think you do need to have a general direction rather than. Alright, well this year they're going to go in that and whatever the teacher wants to teach or whatever thing we can get. Here at Shameless Plug here. Here at Focus Press we sell Sarah Falas's curriculum that there's three. There's three volumes that go up from Genesis all the way into the New Testament and it's tracing the story of Jesus through the Bible. But it's really hitting all the major points. It's something that's going to get kids a very robust understanding of how the Bible works, who the major people are, things like that. And again being three full curricula, full volumes of it, you're getting a lot there that's, that's going to cover years of a kid's life, those kinds of tools and whether you use ours or something else, those kind of tools really are important so that it's not just scattershot. Okay, we're going to talk about Daniel and the lion's den 52 times before they reach, you know, fifth grade. But that we, we kind of know where we're trying to lead these kids along the way. I really like the ones where they, they connect it with what the parents are studying too. But that's a little bit harder to do as well. I understand. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah. The only thoughts I have on this are to me because I actually have some very fond memories of my kids classes that I did it I guess when I was that age, I was at Woodson Chapel Church of Christ in Nashville. But well planned Jack got to this of like it's not just the teacher rolls in. All right, I guess we'll study this this quarter or even at some of unfortunately, some of it's like, well what are we gonna learn today? Type of thing. And like it didn't even. But like well planned by that, I mean over the course of years, taking the kids through the Bible as Jack spoke to. Well structured as well. I think Joe mentioned that a second ago. But the other thing that sticks out to me is something that. Or a class where you kind of expect something of the kid throughout the week that they come back with. Memorization is huge for kids. Memorizing Bible verses and even, you know, the Bible's not all about answering trivia questions, but even questions and, you know, teaching them the Bible verse and when they come back the next week. All right, what's your memory verse? All right, let's. Let's have. I mean, I guess maybe it's my competitive nature, but I love the classes where it's like, all right, who can answer the most questions from what we talked about last week, like, because what that brings, once again is structure and preparation, but also like, hey, this, this wasn't just a one week thing that we just filled an hour for no reason. No, you're expected to know this. You're expected to memorize this Bible verse. You're expected to come back next week and be able to tell me what we talked about. Same thing in regular school and homeschool, whatever it is. And so that to me is what makes the best classes. And y' all said it already. It's work. It's a lot of work. It's volunteer work. There's some great Bible class teachers out there that really pour their heart and their soul into teaching kids and having a memorized version, all those things. And so it's difficult. But those are the things that come to mind for me, Joe, to answer your question about making kids class. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys are hitting on the point that I was Going to make, which is intentionality. That is the key to all Bible classes. This shifts us into the adult Bible class discussion as well. I think intentionality is such a big thing. What are we doing here? What are we hoping to accomplish? What are we trying to get across? What are, you know, what are we hoping? [00:31:34] Speaker B: Just filling an hour of our time. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Correct. This is not punching the time clock. We're here for a reason. If we're going to be here, if we're going to do a Bible class, what are we doing with it? I think if most like Bible class teachers, kids and adult had to answer the question, yeah, more than just, yeah, we're trying to study the Bible. Yes, but about what? What are we hoping to accomplish? We're hoping, as you talked about Will, for these kids to go to come out of here with a robust knowledge of a specific subject in the Bible or with a better closer walk with God or with something more memorized. You know, we want the kids to be able to worship better because, you know, and this goes to shout out to the whites at Leapers Fork their kids. Classes are fantastic because Ms. Mona takes the last 10 minutes of class for the kids and like preps them for worship. Okay, what are we going to do in worship again? Why do we do this? And it gets the kids ready. Like what a smart idea to prep the kids and get them ready. You talk about intentionality. We're here for a purpose. So that to me is what separates the good, good Bible classes. And as we think about again, I think that kind of puts to, you know, puts the stop on the kids discussion. [00:32:40] Speaker C: Well, let me say one more thing on the kids part, just briefly. A lot of women are very, they take it very seriously and I appreciate that very much. But they can be very territorial of their class. It needs to be remembered. You're under the elders here, you're under the leadership of the church and the decisions they make as to what's going to be taught and things like that. On the other hand, I've, I know church stories where the leadership came in and was just really callous on, hey, you worked really hard on this. We don't care. We're throwing away, we're doing something different. And so like kind of give your people leeway, give them a little bit of room to build their classroom. But remember you're not the elder. And I think this is one of those that like the elders very much need to have a hands on approach to what's being taught in their classes but also appreciate those Teachers let them have their classroom. But this is one that really, when churches start trying to implement this, a lot of friction comes from the Bible classes, the kids, Bible classes. I'll just add that little note in there before we move on to the adults. [00:33:37] Speaker A: That's a great point. Well, piggybacking on the eldership idea, we've all sat in Bible classes of a guy where you go, what are we doing? Why, why is he up here? You know, he doesn't know the subject, he's not a good speaker. That's. No, no offense. That's not, you know, intended to be a jerk. That's just to say, like this Will's. [00:33:56] Speaker C: Point, he didn't have a point and he didn't prepare. He didn't take it seriously. [00:33:59] Speaker A: Right, didn't take it seriously. The intentionality, and that's my point, I guess, is the eldership. We talk so much about the leadership, setting the tone and really the culture. The elders are going to be the ones setting the tone on the Bible classes to like, we take this seriously here. That's why I think that family integrated worked in those places is it was the men of the congregation, the elders of the congregation. Suppose pastors in a lot of situations, you know, for them, for the, for the homeschoolers, but like it was the leadership of the congregation looking at it and being very intentional about what they decided to do. So whether you do family integrated or not, it's not the point. Even in your adult classes, I think the elders have to do a good job of saying, what are we trying to do here? So with this in mind, what we had on here on our outline is what I think is a very interesting discussion is like the different formatting in classes because we've all sat in the classes from the guy that just drones on and on in lectures. And do I think, to use the phrase again, do I think all classes are created equal? No, I don't. I really don't. I think the lecture style versus more of a, you know, getting people involved. We've also sat in the classes where the guy is going off the cuff. People are very involved, but it's all over the map. You got women that are basically leading the discussion, you know, because they're commenting seven different times in the last 10 minutes. And you got guys that are saying stuff that's completely unbiblical and the guy's lost control of the class. So, guys, just to kick off the discussion on this, what are your thoughts on different formatting for classes in terms of what you think is most powerful, what you think works the best. [00:35:22] Speaker B: So I put down five. Just kind of off the top, or actually more four, really. And then there's kind of dichotomy that exists maybe in all of these. And so, Jack, I'll let you go next. And if I've left one out, go for it. Feel free to add one. But different formats of classes. You've obviously got textual classes, my personal favorite to do. One of my favorites actually got another favorite. But we did our Romans Bible class that took about a year. Joe, Jack and I did that about as textual as it gets, verse by verse, in many instances, kind of section by section, just going over the text. You've obviously got topical studies, another one where, you know, let's study, you know, study Joy, or let's study even things like let's do a Fruit of the Spirit study. That to me is a little bit more topical. It's not super textual. And then you've got classes that are related to the culture, which is one of my favorites of, like, this big event in culture. How does this relate to, you know, God's Word? How does this apply to us? Obviously, we do a lot of that on this podcast, but, you know, things like a class on transgenderism or something having to do with xyz, political discussion, whatever it is. And then you've got kind of the practical how to type classes, how to evangelize, how to improve your marriage, how to get better at parenting, stuff like that. And so those are the four that kind of stick out to me. I'm sure. Of course, there's others, but textual, topical, kind of culturally related, and then practical and how to. And then the dichotomy that Joe brought up of interactive versus lecture style. Me personally, it is tough, but I do prefer a class where it is a little bit more interactive, where both as the teacher and the listener, actually, as somebody who's taught classes, I enjoy asking, hey, what do you guys think about this? Or what are your thoughts on this? Before I give my thoughts? Because what that does to me, again as listener and the teacher, is it kind of forces everybody to not just sit there and mindlessly listen. Okay, Check my watch every three minutes. Like, oh, no, he's going to ask. He's going to ask a question, right? He's going to see what everybody thinks. He's going to throw a question out there that is actually really interesting for discussion or for whatever it is, versus lecture style, which, again, as both teacher and listener, you can kind of tune out a Little bit. You can kind of like, alright, he's just going to go on and on and on. And that's not at all an excuse for that and justifying that. But so I prefer the more interactive to Joe's point, that can get off the rails to me. The teacher has to be really, really good at interactive and not let people rabbit chase and not oh wow, we just spent 15 minutes on something that's not even in the agenda for the class. Okay, well that's a problem. But Jack, any additions to kind of those four areas? I'm partial to the textual studies. The Romans class, I love you guys did Revelation. That was really great. The cultural ones again are probably the number two for me. But what are your thoughts on some of those different formatting of classes? [00:38:11] Speaker C: That is the nice thing. I mean you got the Sunday morning but you have Wednesday night as well. So do a mix and match if you can. I think that's helpful. You do need that textual anchoring. I think there should always be a textual class. This is a church. The Bible needs to be worked through. But there's again there's a lot of topics you can zero in on with that for sure. With the textual. If it's not, you're gonna have a sermon where people have to sit and listen. And it's one of those. I've read stuff on this that literally the worst way to learn as a human being is lecture style is just sitting and listening. Because how much of a 45 minute class, how much of it sticks? Yeah, there's no engagement. Well and the other thing is as a teacher I love getting people talking because I can get into their brain of how they're hearing what I'm saying, how they're perceiving the lessons that are coming out of the text and how they engage with the text, their understanding of the text, maybe their level. Obviously all of us have had the privilege of going and speaking at places where we're only there for one week, like getting any kind of feedback of like can I go really deep with these people? Or more shallow. But even in a church where you're, you're at regularly, you just kind of need to know are people tracking with what you're saying? And if I just got there, up there for 45 minutes and talked and then sat back down and they just heard me and that's it. That's a lot harder. And so you make a good point about. And we've all been in those classes that they just totally go off the rails. That is that's one of the dangers of discussion style. It has to be very pointed. The teacher has to ask questions and wrap them up. [00:39:52] Speaker B: And the teacher's got to lead the discussion. [00:39:54] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. And it's also not the cliche. What does this text mean to you? I mean, within reason. You can ask that here and there. But there's again, we've probably all been in the class where, all right, we read one verse. What does it mean to you? A few people chime in. We read the next verse. What does this mean to you? That's not Bible study. That's not teaching. And so we're asking a lot of the teachers on these things, but it's an important thing. And that's why we really, as churches need to be training local guys to carry this on. Here's one of the other things that's kind of a forbidden side of this discussion, Joe. You're talking about, like, asking guys, certain guys, not to teach. Paul talks about the gifts given to each of us for a reason. And there are some people that it's just not their gift and they might have a passion for, but it's like, man, we're gonna need somebody else up there. But if you've got somebody who has a gift for it, yeah, it is. And just be okay with that, as if that's you. If you are a guy that's got a gift for it, all right, step up. But having a gift isn't enough. You have to develop that gift that gives you a responsibility to use it for your church. And we need to get those guys put in a position to succeed. Hey, folks, I wanted to tell you about our new Christian book combo. It's two books [email protected], the first is Sunday School Catch Up. It's 150 Bible basics for those that maybe didn't grow up in the church or feel like they're lacking in the fundamentals of the Bible. And then starting line by Dr. Brad Harrib and of course by Will on that one as well, on the basics of the Christian life, of what it means to be a Christian, to be part of the church, why the church does what it does, some doctrinal basics and things like that. And so with those two books, we've got them at a discount on our site when you buy them together. A great starter pack for anyone who wants to know more about the Christian faith. So check that out [email protected]. [00:41:48] Speaker A: You see this. People that are just natural with it, you know, they are like they're born teachers where they engage conversations, they ask the right questions. They're very relevant. Man, if you have a guy like that in your congregation, just take some time to thank him. Thank him for the work that he does, for the work he puts into the class. Appreciate him. Not to say we're not appreciative of the other guys that step in. It's difficult to take a Bible class to prep for that and things like that. But also, yeah, be willing to say, is this my gift? And, you know, if you're the only guy that's going to do it, okay, well, appreciate your effort that you continue to put in, even if it's not your gift. But that is a conversation elders need to have. If they have a bunch of men that they can pick from, they. Even if it is a short roster, by the time they're done, I do think they have a duty to the congregation and maybe to help develop, do training seminars, things like that. I pulled up something on San Diego University or University of San Diego, where it was going into 15 strategies for teaching adult learners. And, you know, it's a long article on these things, which I thought was really good. The thing that I kept coming back to is lessons that are relevant. People will remember things that are relevant. This goes well to your point of, like, topics on marriage, topics on parenting and things like that. It's highly relevant and adults are going to naturally gravitate toward the relevant. But it also talked about stories. Tell stories as you're teaching because people want the personal element to the teaching. When you get up there and you're droning on and on and on, okay, you know, the text can be dry, but you can't be dry. On the other hand, we got to be careful on that because you have guys that, you know, it's story hour for them and things like that. But I think the biggest thing is keeping people engaged. And that's why asking questions, thinking about, thinking about it from the listener point of view, what would I find interesting? That's the biggest thing that helps me with my classes, is I ask myself, if I were sitting in my own class, what sort of questions would I ask? And if it's like, well, who died for us on the cross? Okay, that's not a question that I want to have to raise my hand and answer because everybody feels bad about that. So I try to think about questions that I would like to answer that are very thought provoking, that will get discussion going. And it takes five minutes to think about your class. And go, where can I insert questions here, there. That might get discussion going. [00:43:59] Speaker B: That's really. I mean, it's the same with podcasting. Like, what would I want to listen to? You know? And so, yeah, one of my favorite classes I ever taught. And then we can get into the next section here, but was at where we previously attended. And it was just kind of spur of the moment, not spur of the moment class. Like I was prepping the class the day before and I went on my mind, does God hear the prayers of the unrighteous? Does God hear the prayers of. Well, does God hear the prayers of those not baptized, the unrighteous? And so I just sit down or sat down and literally wrote out like six different questions tangentially related to that. Built the, you know, structured, built the class around it. And then I could not wait to get in front of the, of the class. You guys were both there and just ask some of those questions that I had wrestled with the previous day that I had thought about. That's, that's kind of what we're talking about here with those questions and the interactive class. Maybe we have listeners that might disagree that prefer the lecture style to me. I always learn better, retain better this way when it's engaging. I'm going to go ahead and move us into the how to get more out of it or how to get more out of it as a listener, because I think we could run through these pretty quickly. If you guys have anything to add, go for it. But if you are somebody who is, and this is what I'll say here, if you are showing up to Bible class to literally just sit there and kind of say that you were there, you might as well not show. Like, I would encourage you, actively listen, actively try to get something out of the Bible class. I've taught plenty in classes where you can kind of tell they're just here because they're supposed to be here at 9am or they're supposed to be here, it's a Wednesday night, so they're here at 7 o'. Clock. You can tell they're not really listening. Man. If you're gonna attend Bible class, just like if you're gonna sit down and read the Bible, actually read it. Don't let your mind drift. But a couple things we have down actually take notes, get your pen, get your paper out, write things down, take notes on stuff, ask questions. If the teacher is open to that, of course. And is willing to answer your questions if something. If something. If you come across something that kind of sparks your Interest, write down the question, or if he allows, if the teacher allows, raise your hand and ask it. And then the third one that I put down was if. Especially if it's a textual class, man, read and study that throughout the week. We're going the. Our congregation is going through the book of Isaiah on Wednesday nights right now. And so I'm really looking forward to just kind of reading through and studying Isaiah through the week in kind of preparation for the class or going back and reviewing the class that was, you know, we just had. Or whatever it is. And so those are the three that I had. Guys, anything to add to that? I mean, there's a lot of ways that you as a listener can get more out of Bible class. A lot of it is, again, just listening to it with the intent of, how can I learn something from this? What can I take from this so that I didn't just waste my 45 minutes. [00:46:43] Speaker C: I think one of the other parts of that is kind of going. Blending that with what we were just talking about. If you're a good student, you can help the teacher be a better teacher by asking good questions. And not the kind of questions they're gonna put him on the spot and make him look dumb in front of the room, like, don't. Don't be that guy. But asking the kind of questions that Will can lead him to, you know, expand on something he's talking about of kind of camp on, hey, this is interesting. Let's not just fly by this to get to the next verse. But, hey, I want to know more about this. Let's talk. Let me ask about an application of this or whatever else. And not that you're leading the class from the pews, but that exactly to your point of, like, I want to get something out of this. Be like, man, I'm going to be here anyway. I do want to get something out of this. So I'm going to put this question out. I'm going to. It will help me more if I know this when I come out of it. So being an active listener, an active participant, as Will said, if the teacher is open to people's hands going up, I know sometimes it's kind of like, are they allowed to do that? Well, if it's okay, yeah, that's good. That's a very helpful thing. And so, yeah, looking at it, I really love the point about preparing when it's a textual class, just. Even if you just read through that morning or the night before, all right, you know, you might not know exactly what verses the teacher is going to cover. But let's say it's a study in Galatians. All right, we were in Galatians 3, verse 6 last week. All right, I'm just going to read Galatians 3 and note what sticks out to me, what things I might want to know more about. Things like that. And so one, talk to the teacher. Afterwards, talk to your fellow Christians. You have somebody over for lunch or you have a fellowship meal. It's very easy to talk about the weather and about sports. Bring up the Bible class. Hey, what'd you think about this? Or you ever notice this? Or I don't know. Or next week I hope we talk about. There's ways to get more out of it outside of the hour itself that make the hour when you're in there a lot more productive. [00:48:40] Speaker A: If the teacher is supposed to be intentional, I think the listener should be interested. I think that's the word. If you were. If you're on that end of it, be interested. There's nothing that sucks you dry as a teacher more than you put everything into this study. You're fascinated by, you think it's fantastic. And you get there and nobody cares. Just a bunch of blank stairs. Yeah, it's a bunch of blank stairs. Week after week, you're asking the same questions. You know, the follow up questions and hey, what did we discuss last week? And everybody just kind of gives the blank stare. Like, I don't know, we talked about Jesus. Like, yeah, good one. You know, pay attention. Engage with it. That I'm telling you, it just, it deflates your tires. When you as a teacher feel like you're putting your heart and soul into it and you have a bunch of people that could not care less. They are not interested. Be interested. This goes to your point during the week. Yes. You come up with Questions from Galatians 3. What are your thoughts on this? I was reading that. What does this mean? Even if you don't get to those questions, as you said, Jack, talk to him after because it shows you really are engaged. You are listening, you are paying attention, you're interested in the subject matter. You do want to have this dialogue back and forth. You pull out a point or two. I was thinking about this. I was really meditating on that or praying on this particular thing, you know, And I'm just curious to get your thoughts on XYZ asking a teacher that. Most teachers are going to be over the moon, thrilled that you are interested in what they're teaching, because that's why they do it. The same as any teacher, even in a public school. Like, they love the students that are interested, that seem very engaged. And so maybe engaged is a better word. But I think just playing off the alliteration of I's there, show a little bit of interest and be that type of learner that you want everybody in the class to be and maybe lead that by example. [00:50:21] Speaker C: Just tacking onto your point real quickly. You kind of have a duty to get yourself to the point where you can understand. And as you said as a teacher, it's really frustrating when you're up there teaching and people don't seem to care. One of the other things that's really frustrating is, well, that's just over my head. You're just getting too deep. Deep is good. I appreciate deep because I've been places where they don't go deep. And so, yeah, if a guy's up there just teaching the Bible version of calculus, okay, that's a little hard. And don't go over people's heads as a teacher, but on the other hand, as a listener, look at it and go, what do I need to know? That's why I wrote the Sunday School Catch up book. That's why Will and Brad wrote the Starting Line book. It's like, hey, here's the basics here. Let's catch you up to everybody else. And now you know what we're talking about so you can engage, you can keep up with this stuff and be excited about deeper learning. I mean, like, if. Because I think that's all some people want is to show up and go, all right, who died for us on the cross? That kind of question you're talking about, Joe, that's okay. How many times can you do that? Like you. You can go deeper. As the Hebrew writer says, go from the milk to the meat. Get yourself there. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Not only can you, you must go deeper. You should go deeper. They are rebuked in Hebrews five for not going deeper. You should be on meat and you're on milk. So there's the expectation that, of course, you're going to be moving on and not asking the same old questions. Bible class is a great way to get us there. But, fellas, I do have some questions that I am very intrigued to get to. As it pertains to Bible classes, we're talking about some of these things because these are the questions, I think when you think about Bible classes and you think about the questions that come up, I think some of these are the specific ones that come to mind. And I guess as we're talking about these things, we talk about the teacher. I want to start with this one. Is there anything that should be off limits in a Bible class? Will, you mentioned earlier Song of Solomon, you know, talking about sex. Some people might look at that and go, whoa, timeout. That's way off limits. Is there anything in your opinion that should be out of bounds, off limits? We're not going to touch that with a ten foot pole. Just stay away from that. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Joe's gotten to ask all the questions and go last on his answer. So let's turn the next question around on him. Jack, let him go first. [00:52:31] Speaker A: I'm the therapist, I ask all the questions, right? That's my role. [00:52:34] Speaker B: That's right. And then when you answer, you turn around and ask a different question as your answer. Right. Isn't that part of it? [00:52:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:52:41] Speaker B: So in that example, I don't think Solomon should be off limits. It's in the Bible, obviously. This is where the, I think the family integrated worship might have some challenges because you go textual on Song of Solomon. There's, there's a lot in there that, you know, maybe some people's faces turn red as far as topic, because the reason I put the, because I'm the one that put this question on there. There are also some people that think, hey, if it's like politically, tangentially, politically related or culturally related, I just, you know, Charlie Kirk's death, for instance, that was something that happened on a Wednesday. We went to church that night. Jack, you taught and you basically were like, I don't see how I can teach anything else except, you know, this. And there are some people that would think that's off limits, that's not in the Bible, that's, and all those things. And for the most part I don't, I don't really think that there is much that's off limits. People would say, hey, well, class on pornography, off limits. I don't think that's off limits either. Obviously, once again, ensuring there aren't six year olds in the audience and you're able to. Because what you don't want to do is I'm going to teach this topic and then treat it with kid gloves the whole time and never really say. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Anything. [00:53:54] Speaker B: Of any substance. But I think, man, especially again, so anything within the Bible, Song of Solomon included, I think is on limits stuff that's culture related. You don't want to make it just your soapbox to get up there and talk politics. But man, Charlie Kirk's death absolutely related to Our lives as Christians. And so, Jack, you taught on it, did a great job. There's a lot going on in the world. I think if there was a class on the. Some of the stuff going on with ICE right now, immigration. Jack did a sermon like, this stuff relates to the Bible. So I don't think those topics are off limits again, there are pornography, touchy subjects like that. I think we should be ready to have classes on so hard and fast things that are off limits for class. I can't think of much. I'm sure there might be something that's like, okay, that might not be the time and place. Jack, what about you? Anything coming to the top of your head for this one? [00:54:44] Speaker C: I think there's. I don't think it's a bad idea if you're gonna talk about something, you know, Song of Solomony or whatever, that people have a heads up that they kind of know what they're coming into. Because even if they. It's not like they're. They're. I'm talking about a boycott or whatever, but at least they're. They're not blindsided. And so not that you have to do that. I think it's a nice courtesy just to say, hey, we're in the same way. Like with this podcast, there are ones where in the first 30 seconds we say, hey, it's probably not one you listen to with the family in the car. Just not because we are ashamed of talking about it, but it's just kind of letting everyone know it is a little bit different. We're going a little different direction here. It's important to talk about. But we're. And so kind of viewer discretion, advise, whatever, you know, disclaimer you want to call it, I think that's helpful. But within that, if it's in the Bible. Yeah, okay. [00:55:33] Speaker B: The only other thing I'll say is I think as the youngest person on here, I have an aversion to older people. It's like, ah, we're not going to talk about that. Or that's off limits. Like, man, everything should. That relates to the Bible should kind of be in bounds for a topic. Sure. If it's a delicate subject, treat it delicately. But yeah, I know I already said that. But essentially there's a young old dynamic to that of some older people want to place more things under kind of the taboo section. Whereas young people are like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about, you know, why that matters and whatnot. So I definitely fall more into that. [00:56:05] Speaker C: Camp when we do that we're just telling everybody, go learn that from the world. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Right? Yep. We beat this dead horse so many times. But I mean, it really comes down to, yeah, Jack, I think you said it. Well, we're letting the world teach us, but it's our responsibility as the church to equip people to go out and to know, especially on cultural topics. How should we think about this particular cultural topic? And so, well, hey, we just preach scripture. We just preach like, yeah, that's the point. The scripture rules over everything. That's the point is to teach people ICE and immigration and the shootings and things going on. The Bible has things to say about that too. And here's how it relates. That's the most relevant things that goes back to that San Diego State or whatever it is, or, you know, University of San Diego post on what helps adults learn. And one of the top things they said is, is it relevant? Make it relevant to people. ICE is very relevant because you know what? They're going to turn on the tv, they're going to get on X or on the news and they're going to see these things. What does the Bible say about that? That's where our podcast, I think, shines is. Let's talk about modern things, about relevant topics and bring the Bible into it. Bible classes could be that. And no, it doesn't need to be the social hour, you know, the news catch up hour. But, man, we're missing opportunities when we don't show people where the Bible intersects. [00:57:18] Speaker B: All right, moving us on to the next question here. Unless y' all had anything else on that. [00:57:21] Speaker C: Yeah, take it before Joe does. [00:57:23] Speaker B: That's right. I had to jump. [00:57:24] Speaker A: I was about to, man, I knew. [00:57:25] Speaker B: Joe was about to. All right, Joe, women speaking in class. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Are you kidding? [00:57:29] Speaker B: You chose this one. Yeah, you asked for it, buddy. [00:57:32] Speaker C: You asked for it, buddy. [00:57:33] Speaker A: Well done. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Obviously, this, this is one that I wouldn't even say this is controversial because most churches of Christ classes, you're going to find women speaking. And so it's not like this is a major controversy, but I would say it's one that I know a lot of people are curious about and wonder, are we inconsistent on some things? Is it a good idea? All that. And so start with you, Joe, women speaking in class. What thoughts on that? [00:57:59] Speaker A: Women are to be silent in church. That's my answer. I don't agree with it. My wife doesn't. My mom doesn't either. And I appreciate their conviction on it. And we say, whoa. Well, that's the, you know, that's for worship. No, it's not, because most of the men aren't speaking in worship either. That's not the time where you would be speaking. The asking their husbands at home is, in my opinion, if they did a Bible class, that's where this is relevant. Ask your husbands at home what's going on. Ask them about these things. That's a shout out to family, integrated. You know, that concept of the dad leading the home and answering these questions. That's where this is most relevant, in my opinion. So do I condemn a woman? Am I willing to say you're going to help her? Absolutely not. On the other hand, do I think that the correct way is for women to stay silent in the assembly? Yes, because that is the assembly. The church is gathered. And that's not just a woman. We've all been in the Bible classes where a woman is absolutely leading from the pew, asking a bazillion questions back and forth with the teacher. There's that which is obviously wrong. We can call that out. At what point are you comfortable with it? Is it the three comments, the four comments, or do we just say a woman should be silent, it should remain silent in class. Let her ask her husband home. What if she doesn't have a husband? Okay, let her ask her dad. What if she doesn't have a dad? Talk to the elders. There's always a man that you can appeal to and ask further questions or something along those lines, even talking to the teacher after. But I think it's a. I think it's a biblical principle that in the assembly women are to remain silent. [00:59:30] Speaker C: That's the real challenging part of this is you said in the assembly, when people say, well, that's the worship service, as you brought up, does that mean there's just no rules for Bible class? That it's. Because if that's the case, then she can teach. [00:59:44] Speaker A: Correct? [00:59:45] Speaker C: Like so. It's very. I don't know, It's. It's one of those, like, since we're kind of. And this would be the argument of the people who don't have classes, it's not authorized and therefore we don't have guidelines. Well, I think it's okay for a church to do it, as we'll talk about maybe here in a minute. But the question of what, what practices do we need to observe? I don't know why you would change the quote unquote rules from worship to Bible class. You'd have to have a really good reason, say, now we can do whatever, because again, nobody. Well, I get. Very few make the case that, all right, a woman needs to stay silent in the worship service, but is allowed to teach the Sunday school class for the adults. Now, hardly anyone is saying that. Well, I don't think anyone's saying that. If they're saying she can teach the Bible class, they're saying she can preach and worship. So they are saying that some rules carry, but not all of them. Maybe we just don't have to be as strict with what we're applying. That's weird. That's inconsistent to me. [01:00:45] Speaker B: I do think we changed some rules, though. I mean, I would say the rules for Bible class are different than the rules for worship to some extent. Right. I mean, you think about the. I mean, we just got done talking about kids classes and how we're not really okay with children's worship, but we are okay with. So that by itself would be a rule that's changed. Right. Just to provide some pushback. [01:01:06] Speaker C: I'd put it in the same category Joe just did of, like, would I say it's a sin? No, but I wouldn't do that because. [01:01:11] Speaker B: Okay, but would you say if a woman gets up and preaches a sermon. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we're categorically different. We're talking about here like we're talking. [01:01:18] Speaker A: A comment, I guess, Right? [01:01:21] Speaker B: I guess I find it inconsistent, and I knew coming to the table we would disagree on this. I find it inconsistent to say, I'm not going to condemn somebody for that, but I think it's the same as a woman preaching that I would condemn somebody for. [01:01:32] Speaker C: No, I didn't say it was the same as a woman preaching. I said. What? [01:01:35] Speaker B: No, no, sorry. Joe said to zero on what Joe said. Joe said he would not condemn somebody for doing it. But I'm going to extrapolate and assume y' all would condemn a woman for preaching. And y' all are basically equating those two. [01:01:48] Speaker A: One is a lot more clear in the text, in my opinion, as to. Yes, absolutely. A woman taking that leadership position. I just think you can extrapolate that. Yeah. A woman is to remain silent in class. That is my extrapolation from the text. That's. That's my. [01:02:01] Speaker C: One's a natural conclusion. One is a direct revelation. [01:02:03] Speaker A: Correct. That's a great way of putting it. So am I going to condemn somebody for a conclusion that I drew from it and that I think they should draw from it? No, because everybody's reading it in a little bit of a different way. But do I think that if they read it and had the Correct conclusion, they would agree. Yes, I do. Otherwise I wouldn't believe that. You know, I wouldn't. If I didn't think that my conclusion was correct, I wouldn't be saying this. [01:02:25] Speaker C: So in a practical sense, we've all been at churches where women do speak up and it's not like, hey, be quiet, you know, like. And I guess that's where I see. [01:02:33] Speaker B: A little bit of inconsistency. If it's a, hey, this is a violation of First Corinthians 14 that tells women to remain silent. But I'm going to teach a class, allow women to comment. It just, I don't know. That seems inconsistent to me and I know the what I'll always bring up and I understand there's a difference in an assembly of the church as opposed to a gathering of a Bible study. You know, I go to a Bible study every Tuesday night where there, it's like six married couples, we all get together, everybody talks. And I understand that that is different than this is an elder sanctioned gathering of the church at 9am before the worship hour. And so there is a difference there. However, I just that I don't know. That's one of those things that it seems to me that you have examples of, you know, whether it be, you know, small groups or again these Bible studies and things like that. I guess my entire point is if we're going to be a stickler on that, we need to be a stickler on that. Well, especially from the teacher perspective. [01:03:38] Speaker A: But again, I wouldn't. There's plenty of things that I could look at and say that's probably wrong but I'm not going to give them somebody. If somebody's £400, do I think they have been mastered by food? Yeah, I do. Do I. Am I going to send that person to help me And I don't know their background, I don't know what they've seen in the text. I don't know any of those things. That's between them and God. Can I make it general? [01:03:56] Speaker B: But are you going to a situation where they are going to violate that? Again, probably not. [01:04:03] Speaker A: That's. What do you mean by that? Invite them into a situation like I'm going to cancel. Open. [01:04:08] Speaker B: No, open the floor for comments and allow women to comment is the equivalent to what I'm saying of having the 400 pound person over for ice cream bar or whatever. [01:04:17] Speaker C: Well, I mean you could turn the inconsistency around to say with the small group discussion you're talking about, do you let do any of the wives ever lead that discussion? [01:04:26] Speaker B: I've never been a part of a small group, but no, they don't lead. [01:04:28] Speaker C: Your Tuesday night wives? No, they're not one of those guys. Why not? [01:04:33] Speaker B: Because that would be, in my opinion, taking authority pretty clearly. [01:04:38] Speaker A: So that's the distinction for you. So I guess my question be like, what do you think it means? Let them ask their husbands at home. In what context is that referring to? [01:04:47] Speaker B: You talk about First Corinthians 14. Yeah, I mean, I think is that strictly for. So I take First Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 obviously is kind of the main two passages. And to me, and maybe this is where I'm reading too much of the Spirit as opposed to the letter. The spirit of it is they are not to have authority. And that's where you get into First Corinthians 11 with the head covering as well. Under no circumstances are they to take any kind of authority. And that's the difference with the Bible studies is if my wife was, you know, leading the study and leading the discussion, she's pretty clearly taking authority there. Her asking, what are you, you know, asking the man who is leading the study, what are your thoughts on this verse? Is not taking authority. And I would, I would carry that over into Bible class, I guess, is the. And so maybe again, maybe I shouldn't conflate 1st Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14, but I see those as, you know, kind of in the same. [01:05:36] Speaker C: I think we're in agreement with that thing. Joe's point, though, about ask your husbands at home. There's not an opportunity to ask during worship services. Now, there might have been in First Corinthians 14, but as we observe worship service, there's not an opportun for her to do that. So that's not even applicable to that situation. So if there were a situation that were applicable, it would be this. And so because then the other thing we haven't even gotten into is is there a distinction between asking a question and making a comment? I mean, like, and so, and I think Joe and I are going to the better safe than sorry. This is the sticking, you know, trying to keep as close to this line as we can. But that better safe than sorry isn't always the answer, you know, but it's. [01:06:18] Speaker A: I don't condemn is. I do take it as a better safe than sorry. But I'm not, I'm not condemning if your wife, you know, if Rachel comments in a class or whatever. I think she has before, like, I don't condemn that. My wife used to comment in classes. I think it's a personal conviction thing that, yeah, I think it's a better safe than sorry. That's my reading of the text. But, no, I'm not con. I'm not prepared to condemn somebody or to call them out or take them aside. Hey, you talked in Bible class. It's like. It is my conviction that if they see the Scriptures in that way, they would come to that conclusion. And. But, man, I'd be condemning, like, half the women in church if that was the case across the. Of course I'm not going to do that. [01:06:52] Speaker C: This is also a congregational thing that it might be that there are some congregations where the elders have said, yeah, don't do that. And if that's the case, the women need to honor that. And in congregation where they say, yeah, we're okay with it. If I'm not going to get up there and teach me, like, all right, well, while I'm teaching, you're not allowed to talk. I mean, you're trying to submit to your elders. You're trying to have your own personal convictions. That's where these things are very. [01:07:17] Speaker A: There's. [01:07:17] Speaker C: There's so many layers to them. [01:07:19] Speaker A: Here's what I'd also be interested to know. In a congregation where the husbands are leading, they're listening to their wife. You know, they're. They're taking the. The word at home and talking to their wives and things like that, talking to their kids. But where the husbands are very strong men and the husbands are leading, do women feel the need to speak up as much? Because in my. In. In, it seems that that is not. And I'm not saying that only women that are, you know, that run the homes are the ones that speak up. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying if the culture in the home, or the culture in the church, rather, such as these homeschool churches, I don't think you see a whole lot of women speaking in those because the culture is. The culture is different. [01:07:58] Speaker B: I think the mark of a great Bible class, though, is one where you're teaching something, you ask a question, and, man, it sparks eight different questions in eight different people's heads. And so I get what you're saying. I don't think that would necessarily be an indictment. Necessarily. If you, as a teacher says something, it's like, whoa, I never. That's. Man, let me. You know what I mean? Like, to me, that's sparking more interest. And that's what I love about A good Bible study and a good, you know, around the kitchen table or again, even a good Sunday morning Bible class. And so again, I know there's a difference in those two. And so, I mean, I guess I'll concede the point there, but I think, yeah, I guess I just see some inconsistencies there that, you know, we're gonna have to just agree to disagree on. [01:08:39] Speaker A: Authority is gonna be the key, you know. Do you feel it's. That's, that's, that will be from your point. Is she taking authority in saying that? And my point would be again, as Jack said, the better safe than sorry. So it's two different approaches of seeing it. Yeah. [01:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, and this goes to. Is this whole thing even authorized? Which is why some people don't do it, which we don't have time for. We have had our long promised non institutional episode. Maybe we'll include that with. [01:09:05] Speaker B: Is it not. Do non institutional churches not have it? I know something. [01:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean non institutional. It depends on how broadly you're using that term. But yeah, if there are congregations in the churches of Christ, some don't have kitchens, some don't have Bible classes, some don't have, you know, things like that. And so that, that's one stripe of that. But we'll, we'll save that for a later date. We'll push to the deep end about Bible class attendance and the importance of it and the necessity of it and the, I guess, is it sin? Kind of question like that. So, yeah. So anything else before we wrap here, guys? [01:09:43] Speaker A: I don't think so. [01:09:43] Speaker C: All right, an interesting discussion there, especially at the end. I would like to hear you guys comments whether again as always, YouTube, Facebook or the Patreon. The deep end. Join us for the deep end for that extra discussion and the daily devos and Bible study sessions. Joe and I are teaching through the minor prophets currently in our Bible study sessions that are available on Focus Plus. So check that out, focuspress.org/ and as was mentioned, see us at those events that we mentioned at the top of the show coming up here in the next few weeks. So Lord willing, we'll see some of you out there and if there's nothing else, we'll see you on the next one. Hey guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate. That's FocusPress.