Is "Placing Church Membership" Biblical?

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. I'm your host, Joe Wilke, joined, as always, by Jack Wilke and Will Harib. Before we get started, we just wanted to make mention of something that is kind of a lesser known part of our Patreon. Of course, we let everybody know of our Patreon, focus plus, go to focuspress.org plus. But on that we have something called understudy. And for those that are Patreon members, I'm sure they've seen those go up. But it is something that I had thought of a little while back, probably about a year ago, actually, of this idea of what if we did a series on the understudied parts of the Bible, the things that maybe you don't always hear about in the church, the parts that you could go to church for 40 years and not hear classes on. And so I had come up with a list of what that might be, and we actually started covering some of those in our time at Jackson Temple, where we church Christ. That is where we preach and teach. And so Jack and I initially covered the book of Revelation. I think. Jack, how many classes do we get out of that? There's got to be 50. [00:01:09] Speaker B: It's a lot. I don't know about 50. But the other thing is they're about half hour chunks. And so it's, sometimes we'll get through a whole chapter. Sometimes they're really zooming in on one particular section or kind of a topical look as what is Babylon in the book of revelation and things like that. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Absolutely. And we are currently going through Exodus and Leviticus right now and just kind of covering some highlights and some things hopefully you have not heard. We try to take an interesting point of view. And so really, this is just an invitation to come study the Bible with us, come study the parts that maybe are understudied for you, the parts that you have not, maybe you haven't gotten to the typology in Exodus and such, and what's the significance of the plagues and what's the significance of the tabernacle and things like that. So we're really trying to dig into those things. And we're excited about it. We're excited about that offering. It is a lesser known thing, something we haven't pushed too much, but we wanted to let everybody know of that offering, of course, with everything else that goes on with focus plus. But, fellas, anything else you'd add to that before you end the episode? All right, so as we get into the episode, is church membership necessary? This is a question that has come up, I think, a lot specifically recently with some online debate that's been going on back and forth. Um, but kind of one that's, I think, been in the back burner or on the back burner for our, our podcast, um, thinking about these ideas and thinking about the idea of can or basically, when does somebody become a member? How does somebody become a member? Is it necessary for somebody to become a member? This is something our church has been talking about. Do we need to have visitors cards? Do we, you know, is somebody immediately added as a member when they're baptized? What if somebody moves into state? Do we add them as a quote unquote, member? Do we need a letter of recommendation from that? There's a lot of questions that, that kind of come up when we start talking about church membership. So we want to take a look at it. Historically speaking, we want to take a look at it as to where it is now and maybe some of the arguments against having a hard set church membership versus maybe some arguments for why is it important, maybe to have that defenses around what is a church membership and who's allowed in your church and who's not. And so we're excited about the episode. Like I said, this is something we've been talking about and thinking about specifically at our church as well as we're getting ready to make some adjustments here. And so this has been on our hearts and on our minds. So, fellas, as we get in, I'm going to kick it. Jack, to you. This is your outline, and you've done a fantastic job on it. I want you to start with just the idea of member. We have to define what is a member. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Sure. Well, I also want to say this is something. We got a comment and another message about this. So we listen to the deep thinkers. We like getting your feedback on what episodes you want to hear. It helps us out a lot to get content like this. So keep it coming. And, yeah, a couple of people asked about what about church membership? And we're going to get to kind of the arguments against it. And there, that's which, again, Joe says, kind of a growing thing of do you really have to place membership with a church, or is it biblical to, quote unquote, place membership? But when you talk about what a member is, first of all, you kind of have to back up to what the church is. When we say placing membership with the church, and there's a term that goes back hundreds of years, we're not inventing anything here. It's not when you hear a lot in the churches of Christ, but you will hear it in the denominational world of the church visible and the church invisible. And the church invisible is every Christian everywhere. It's not really organized, but literally everybody who's in Christ right now is part of the church. And so we talk about that sometimes when you take the Lord's supper, that man we're in communion with people all over the world. We don't see them, they don't see us, they're out there. I mean, you could theoretically go meet them, but like herding all of those people into a room, into a stadium, into whatever you want to, whatever venue you want to say, it's just not going to happen. But we know that they're all Christians. We don't know who all they are. You know, you kind of get the idea the church visible is the people you can see. It is the gathered local congregation that are Christians. Now there are going to be members of the church visible who aren't actually Christians, who aren't going to be saved. They're going to be people that you go to church with. And maybe they've got a secret sin problem that is going to keep them separate from God. But right now they are part of the church. We say, well, that's a member of our church. We don't know where they stand. In the church invisible, but in the church visible. That's what we're claiming. And so I think those are useful terms. And I think that's why this idea is questioned sometimes and is maybe receiving some pushback is, well, when I'm, the minute I'm baptized, I'm a member of the church. And they mean the church invisible. And so I don't need to be part of a church visible. And so you've got that part of it and then you've got. So that that's kind of the church part of church membership. Now let's talk about the member chart of part of church membership. If somebody wants to take that part of it. [00:05:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll jump in here. So obviously there's, there's a lot of talk in the New Testament, a lot of, you know, writing in the New Testament about, you know, being a member of a body. Paul himself uses the body analogy a ton when it comes to the church. And being a Christian. You've got Romans twelve, four and five where he literally says, for as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function. So we being many, are one body in Christ. You have a. The first half, really, of one. Corinthians twelve is all about that. You've got Ephesians four, really, eleven through 16, which to me is one of the most beautiful pictures of the church itself. But it is there in verse 16, talking about the whole body being joined together by what every joint supplies. And so you get this picture as you read the New Testament against, specifically Paul's writings, that the way that God designed the church is really a body with individual parts, with individual members that are doing various things. And so what does that imply? It implies that the members are a part of something. They are a part of something. And so what we're going to. We're going to get to kind of the. The arguments, you know, against church membership versus the arguments for it and why it might be important. Um, but again, just to. To establish the fact that the illustration of the church as the body of Christ we see all throughout the New Testament. Ephesians four, as I just referenced, um, Colossians 118, talks about Christ being the head of the body. And so I think that's an important component for this discussion to understand that we are described as members of a body. The question that we're, of course, getting to is, should we consider ourselves members of the entire body? As Jackson spoke to the church, invisible, the church the world over, as a lot of older, older people will say in their prayers, the church the world over. I don't think I've ever said that in my prayers, but a lot older people do. But you know, what they mean is the church. Christians all over the world, should we consider ourselves a member of that, or should we consider ourselves a member of the church visible, as Jack just spoke to the. Our local congregation, or both? What is the answers? That's, of course, what we're going to be getting to, but let's move into, unless you guys have anything to add to that, kind of the typical protocols for becoming a member, kind of the way we currently do things, specifically, obviously, in the church of Christ. What are some various ways that you become a member, Joe, I'll hand it back to you. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Sure. First and foremost, I think it's just baptism. Uh, somebody follows the. The plan of salvation, and maybe they've been coming for a little while. You're not comfortable calling them a member because they're just not saved. They're. They're still lost, but they're starting to, you know, they're in a Bible study, whatever it is, the preacher baptizes them. Well, yes, now they're a member of the congregation. And a lot of times the natural transition process is pretty easy. A lot of people, it's like, well, we know you, you've been here for the last six weeks. Everybody's kind of gotten to know your name. Now you've been baptized. We all kind of huddle depending on the church. A lot of people huddle around them and everybody comes and gives them big hugs. And then it's kind of like, okay, you're a part of us, you're part of the church. Yes, collective. You're part of the church as a whole. This invisible. But then a lot of times, I. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Think some places actually do separate the act of baptism with saying, I'm a member. [00:09:04] Speaker A: They do. A lot of times I think a lot of people just take it as, now he's a member. But there are plenty of congregations, to your point, that do not that say, okay, now he has to go through the formal process of what we'd call placing membership. Right. Um, sometimes that's just putting a membership card, kind of the, the visitors card, and saying, yes, I desire to be a member. Checking the box that goes to the elders. Then they run through the process of, let's, let's bring this guy into a meeting. And usually you're questioned within the meeting in terms of placing membership. Will do you have thought? [00:09:34] Speaker B: That's what I was. [00:09:34] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what I was going to say, is that it seems to me, at least in my experiences, a lot of congregations have really varying degrees to which, as far as kind of the seriousness with which they take this whole placing membership concept, some people, it is kind of like a, hey, you check the box, maybe you say something to the preacher in the hallway. Next thing you know, they remember. And that's very much a kind of laid back way to do it. And then you do have, Joe, you kind of just referenced or alluded to the idea of, you got to meet with the elders. They're going to ask you some questions about maybe your marital status, or they're going to ask you some questions about your spiritual journey. And I just, I personally have seen kind of a wide range of variance between a very more so casual or laid back version of becoming a member of just, hey, I'd like to be a member here. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Okay, cool. [00:10:16] Speaker C: You know, check this. You know, fill this card out and you're a member, essentially. You know, I've seen that one, that end of the spectrum all the way to the bring in the whole, you know, that maybe that's a husband and wife. Bringing them in to the elders meeting and not necessarily interrogated or anything, but, you know, important questions are asked. And so I think that's, maybe we'll get to it later. But also kind of an important discussion to have is as to which, which of those two ends of the spectrum do you guys feel like is more appropriate for an eldership to do? But, yeah, I mean, that's something that, again, I've seen a wide range of a wide variety of in my time. [00:10:52] Speaker B: It's kind of funny because I think that is what we'll end up getting to is picking one end of the spectrum or the other, because right now, in a lot of places, it's kind of neither. It's, it's kind of the thing of, I think it's a common law marriage. Oh, you guys have lived together for seven years, for all intents and purposes, or I think it's seven years, ten years, whatever the law is, state by state, you're, we're going to consider you married, whether you actually ever got married. I think that's church membership for a lot of people, especially in bigger churches where it's just so much easier to come and go, is you've been there a while, people see you, they recognize you. Hey, maybe we'll get you to write your name and number down for the, the church directory, you know, and so we have your information. We might even ask you to teach a kid's Bible class or to participate in vbs, come to the events. Yeah, we see you. We're familiar with you. That's about it. And so again, it's kind of common law. And then when they leave, maybe it's like, oh, bummer, they're not coming anymore. Maybe we'll call them, maybe we'll see. But maybe they're just going somewhere else. And so you kind of float in and out really easily. And so again, it's not deciding one way or another, it's just a de facto. You don't really have church membership anymore. [00:11:58] Speaker A: So one of the questions, there are a couple questions, actually. I'd say that arise out of this one would be, what do you do with the converted young people? Do they need to place membership themselves? Does a. We've all talked about the age of accountability. When we were baptized, I was baptized at a very young age. Did me at the ripe old age of twelve or ten, rather need to place membership with Bear Valley, where I was. I think they just, and this is to my point is they did not pull me into the, to the elders meeting. Because I think dad was not an elder at the time, but he was about to become an elder there. Um, but they did not pull me into an elders meeting. Okay, give me the rundown. Like, they knew my family. They knew where I, where we came from, they knew all of that stuff. So I would assume that that's kind of how it goes across the spectrum. But should we make more of a distinction specifically for the younger members that are baptized 14, 1516 years old as to, you are now a member here because there is something important. I would say we're going to get into arguments against its importance. I would argue it is important. Spoiler alert. Um, but I think there is something important for a 16 year old to know. Yes, you're with, you're under your parents household, but you also are a Christian on your own. You are a member of this congregation, and as such, we will put you into the service of the congregation. How would a church best go about that, do you think, taking a 16 year old and like I said, a ten, do you think bringing them in front of the elders and kind of having that discussion, or do you think there should be a formal ceremony? Like, what are your guys thoughts? [00:13:25] Speaker C: Well, this would speak to kind of, not to bring it, dredge it back up, but the age of accountability, my opinion, baptizing people, you know, on the older end as opposed to the younger end, because, you know, part of me is like, well, should you bring a 15 year old in before the elders? Well, sure. I don't personally really have a huge problem with that. Well, then a ten year old, we get kind of squirrely about it because they're so much younger. Well, maybe that's part of the problem as far as what this should look like, Joe, you know, because they are still under their parents roof and, you know, should there be a ceremony? I think the way that makes the most sense to me personally is obviously you consider them still, you know, under their, their parents headship, as far as, you know, living under their roof. But I also do not have a problem with the elders, again, taking a baptized 16 year old guy and, you know, maybe bringing him into an elders meeting or, and it maybe doesn't have to be that formal, going out to dinner with the elders or they have him over to their house or something like that. Like, he doesn't always have to be in the, you know, the dreaded elders meeting that a lot of people talk about. But essentially do make it clear these are, this is what we expect of members. This is what we expect of a specifically, again, for a, for a man, this is what we expect of somebody who is going to be a baptized believer in our congregation. And whether that be expectations of moral behavior, whether that be expectations. I mean, just throwing young people up in leadership positions is not always the best idea. But I'm not, you know, I'm not as, as big on the idea of a ceremony or of anything like that. But I do think some kind of level, at least, of communication between the elders and between somebody who gets baptized beyond just, hey, here's a bible for you, which is pretty much all we do in congregations these days when somebody gets baptized. I think some additional level of communication other than that would be very beneficial to the young men, to the young and young women as well, to the young people who are getting baptized, because again, it communicates something. This is something important. You just made a huge commitment with your life. This is incredibly important. Again, this is not just something that you get a free bible and now you take the Lord's Supper. This is a really big deal. I think that that message would get communicated a whole lot better and a whole lot clearer if something was done from eldership to baptize believer again young person once that happened, whereas right now I feel like it's not getting communicated hardly at all. [00:15:33] Speaker B: You used a phrase there a couple of times that I think is really important. And the more I study on leadership, really across the board and also pertaining to churches, make it clear, let everybody know where they stand, let everybody know who is, who isn't. Let everybody know what it means to be one. What it doesn't mean just clarity, because that is kind of the problem with the common law marriage version of membership, is there's no clarity to anybody. There's no clarity to the elders. Like, are we supposed to be shepherding you? There's no clarity to the member of you're supposed to do this. We expect this out of you. And so, yeah, I'm glad you used that phrase, make it clear. That is one of the important things of church membership, which I don't want to get too far ahead of our why it's important section. But yeah, I think this is a fair question because one of the other things is we're talking about people that grew up in the church in 1314, 1516, whenever got baptized and kind of making them a member separate from their parents. Let's say they bring a friend whose family doesn't come. I think with that, it's very clear that person, the elders need to have a relationship with them not vicariously through their parents. Well, if that's the case, then you probably need to have that also with the one that was a member of the church there. And so I think that helps us have a little more clarity on that as well. [00:16:45] Speaker A: This. This is getting very myopic and into the nitty gritty, which I guess we do on this podcast, is what we do. This sounds really dumb as a question, but, like, do they get their own placard, you know, for a picture? Do they get their own name in the directory? You know, like, as you think about what, what is the breaking point between, yes, you're still under your parents household, you're still part of your family. But I think what you said there is very interesting that phrasing of, like, vicariously eldering them and shepherding them through their parents. Man, you see that a lot of, like, well, I need to talk to the dad, so he needs to talk to son, you know? [00:17:16] Speaker C: No, I do. I do still think the parents should heavily be involved. I mean, especially if it's a 1516 year old. And, you know, maybe something needs to be brought up. You know, maybe have the parents in the elders meeting with them or something. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Like that as it is. And, I mean, I know it's a symbol for more, for bigger things. I would not have them take their own picture for the picture board out front in the foyer. You know, I wouldn't. And so, you know, there is. You're still recognizing the natural family, but also recognizing. But you do have a duty to the church over and above your family. So, yeah, I mean, I think there's both going on. [00:17:50] Speaker A: I was just gonna say, you could have a nine year old in there, nine year old sister, who's not. And then he is. But how would you know where he stands is that, you know, somebody looks at the board, who's the christian there? Who's there? Who's not? Yes, it's a dumb question, but I do think those type of things are what come up when you talk about specifically for younger people. You know, where they stand on membership. [00:18:08] Speaker C: You know what makes this a whole lot harder, and you're going to kill me for. For bringing up this rabbit trail. Bible classes and youth groups makes it make. Make this conversation a whole lot harder, because, again, what is the expectation for a baptized 15 year old? Go to your high school class and make sure you come to the youth events. That's pretty much it. And so, and again, even that's not really communicated. That's just kind of like, oh, that's kind of what I'm supposed to do and to be to beat our dead horse. We wonder why young people are walking away from the faith. It is not communicated to them that this is something important. This is a commitment. All that is, again, sometimes not even specifically communicated to them is be, you know, show up to your Bible class where you're going to talk about peer pressure for a, you know, 36 weeks out of the year and then, you know, try to be at the Devo every, every other month. That's really all we have. And so I think we're all clearly here on the same page that at least some level of higher expectations for young, converted, baptized people as members would be a positive thing. [00:19:06] Speaker A: So as we're talking about protocols before we jump into the history and then getting into the arguments, speaking of protocols, this is not on the outline. And this does kind of go into, I don't know where we would fit this on the outline personally, you know, arguments against or for. But something that I ran across that there was a gentleman at a church in Colorado that was from southern churches. And when he came to the church, he brought a letter of recommendation. What in the world is this? And it was this idea of, I'm coming from the last church. I'm bringing this letter of recommendation. I'm in good standing at this last church where I was. Things are good. They like me there, but I've moved and I'm coming to this church. And I remember him asking as we had somebody come in, like, does he have a letter of recommendation? Who cares, dude? Then you start thinking about it, you go, okay, that makes a lot of sense. So I am curious your guys thoughts on, because it kind of jumps ahead on why it's important, but we're not really getting into the details, nitty gritty protocols in that section, per se. Do you think if we are going to just assume cats out of the bag, we kind of believe it is important. But if we are going to assume that, you know, a local church does membership, what are your thoughts on having this letter of recommendation where somebody does come with a previous, previous letter, do you think that's something churches, if they're going to say it's important, if they're going to have it, should they have that practice or do you think that's asking too much? [00:20:24] Speaker C: Should they ask for it? [00:20:25] Speaker A: Essentially, should they ask for something like that? Of like. Or get the phone call or the phone number of the previous congregation to see if that is because you are guarding yourself potentially against some, you know, Hymenaeus and Alexanders out there. [00:20:38] Speaker C: I was just going to say, does it have to be a specific formal letter? I personally wouldn't think so, but I think that very easily could take the form of calling up the elders. Hey, we had this family place membership. Would love to just know a little bit more about them, you know, kind of what was their involvement? I mean, you could ask whatever questions you wanted, but some kind of, I don't want to call it vetting practice. That doesn't sound right. But some kind of like investigation into, you know, what, you know, are they in good standing? I think is the ultimate question. And whether that, again, I think asking for a quote unquote letter of recommendation makes it sound like a job interview, which it's not, but you could, again, basically do the exact same thing and call the. Call up the elders, call up the preacher. Hey, tell us. We're excited to have the. And I can already hear people listening to this going, man, this is super intrusive. This is, isn't that really, you know, something that's kind of out of bounds for elders maybe, Jack, I'll let you speak to that a little bit more. But to answer Joe's question, I do, I, I don't see the harm in that. I can see where there would be a lot of benefit to that. Again, maybe not specifically a letter, but, you know, using the phones or whatever. [00:21:41] Speaker B: It is, I think to use your phrase again, makes it clear it's one eldership telling another we're passing shepherding of this person's soul off to you. Because think about it, if you're going to give the account for somebody's soul before God, as we're going to get to the scriptures that say that just kind of letting them wander and drift and, oh, I guess they don't go here anymore. Bad idea. Like, I need to make sure that this baton is being picked up on the other side. And so for the, for that eldership, it helps for the ones coming in. Like you said, it's not a wolf coming in, but it also the church hopping thing that we hate so much of. You know, people that go, especially here in the south where there's 15 churches in a ten mile radius, and, well, I got crossways with some people here and I went here and I went here and then, man, in the last ten years I've been a member of five different churches. I think that would help some of the elders at some of those churches to say, hey, why is this person going from your church? That's 2 miles away to ours. What happened? And with a letter to say, hey, they're in good standing, but something came up. Here's why they're doing it. You probably wouldn't have that scenario a lot because you wouldn't get letters of recommendation for somebody just kind of taking their ball and going home. So you'd cut that down and it would just be a reminder of, hey, you're under these people's leadership for your soul, and you're going to go give that to somebody else. And so there's communication all around, again, telling everybody where the member stands, where the leadership stands, all that. Um, and so that, that's something I think would be a blessing if we had more widespread practice of that. [00:23:11] Speaker A: I agree. I think initially it was to Wills point, whoa, man, that's invasive. And then you start thinking about it like it makes so much sense, because you do have the people that, let's be honest, elder one, eldership or men's, men's group or whatever, you know, men's meeting, gets on the phone with the eldership, the other car actually goes, those people are there. You better watch out. This is what they did at the last congregation. They railroaded somebody out. Or, or, you know, we took a stand on some biblical issue. They left. So if this is your stance on homosexuality, just be aware this is their stance on it. They, you know, they did not agree biblically with where that's really good information to have or. That's one of the hardest people, one of the hardest workers we've ever seen. We were so sad to see them go. [00:23:53] Speaker C: They had to leave. [00:23:55] Speaker A: It's just great. It's a scouting report, and it gives. [00:23:58] Speaker C: Being shepherds some legitimacy. It gives some legitimacy to their job, to their purpose and role. [00:24:04] Speaker B: I'm going to give you guys a little bit of think deeper lore here. Uh, when we met the harabs, it was, uh, they were speaking in South Dakota. Brad was speaking in South Dakota, traveling with his family. Uh, we, Joe and I living at home with our parents in Colorado. [00:24:18] Speaker C: 2005. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah, 2005. I mean, way back. Will was. Wow, Will was a. Yeah, five or six year old was not born. This goes way back. And this brother sadly just passed away last week. Just a guy we all loved. Brad had spoken at his congregation, and this guy, we were very tight with him, our family was. And he called and said, hey, Brad, Harab preached here. He's coming to stay at your house. Like, he and his, he's bringing his family. They're coming to stay at your house. They'll be here tomorrow. We're like, we don't have his number. We've never met Brad Herab. We don't. I mean, we've heard of Brad Harab through the church of Christ pipeline and all that, but that's about it. Here we are. What is that? 19 years later on episode 120 of a podcast together that started. But again, we had something in common right off the bat of, hey, we're Christians, you're Christians. We've got this brother in common who recommended. And so it's not the same as a letter of recommendation, but it's this on ramp toward a relationship and same of church membership. And so going from one to the other, I think, again, it would prevent the local church hopping. But when somebody goes from one distance to another, there's just a little bit of, hey, you're a Christian. We're a Christian. We've got maybe there's some connections to your ties. Oh, you come from here or, you know, these brothers or have you ever heard of so and so? These things are what bind us together. This is what, how much we're a. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Family, how much more of a family does that make you feel, you know, when you are making these connections and you do understand a little bit of their roots and whatnot. So it's just, yeah, I wanted to get into that again, squeezing that part into the outline because I think that is a very interesting and needed thing. So many people move during COVID where they, you know, left all the way across. We did, obviously. And you actually, all three of us have moved in the last three years. So those things are important. But I do want to get us into, because this, this part of the outline interesting is kind of, kind of left vague. And we've talked about this a little off air. The history of it is pretty, pretty bare. It seems like there's not. Yeah, pretty sparse when it comes to the church. Early church fathers and, you know, middle, middle ages history and such as to. And Jack, you're the one that is studying on this, like, what is the word when it comes to church membership? Was this a thing? Was it the specifically even, let's take away from church Christ. Do you know much about like, even the Catholics middle age? I don't know. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Well, one of the things that does start where it starts to crystallize into there was something was when they started adding catechisms and somebody would have to be catechized and go through the whole thing before they were baptized, before they were a full member of the church, before they were allowed to take the Lord's supper and all that of you've got to take this class. So you know what this church teaches and believes. And then if you're going to be part of it, you need to be on board with this and be able to recite it and you know your stuff of what you're signing up for. And I don't really agree with that practice, although I think there's some value in which we'll get to of being on the same page, obviously. But that's where we don't catechize people. We don't go through that process. But you know, a few hundreds of years down the road from the New Testament, that's basically all you see as far as like becoming a member. Is that catechism process really in the New Testament what you have is acts two 3000 are baptized and they immediately come under the apostles teaching and they're just part of the gang. The group is there together and had all things in common and that very beloved section of scripture. And so was it while I was baptized. Now I need to place membership. It was just, no, these are Christians. These are Jesus fault. They weren't even called christians at that point. These are disciples of Jesus. Oh, okay. I do. I do believe he was raised from the dead. I need to be baptized into him for repentance of my sins or remission of my sins. Acts 238 and now I'm part of this church family. It was just very natural. And so they didn't have the questions of it that we're having here. [00:27:57] Speaker C: So let's go ahead because that actually brings up something that I was going to ask. Joe has already spoiled it, that we are, all three of us, in favor of church membership at least being necessary, that it is something, that it is important. It is necessary. We will get to those reasons here shortly because what we want to get to right now is kind of, we want to steal man and present the arguments against it, the arguments that would be opposed to church membership and arguments that we heard other people make. And this is one that I think is an interesting one and that it ties directly to what Jack said. Guys, I might go a little bit out of order here. That's kind of at the end of our list here. But I want to ask you, because it ties into what Jack just said, because I could very easily see or hear somebody make the argument that this concept of placing membership at a congregation is not necessarily biblical. It is not in the New Testament anywhere. Again, somebody could make that argument, you know, you don't see that phrase. You don't see, you know, anything that we've discussed basically going before the elders and having this meeting. You don't technically see that really anywhere in the New Testament. And so, again, in the Church of Christ, typically we would, you know, believe this as well, that anytime we are adding something that we don't necessarily see in the New Testament, we get a little bit wary, a little bit hesitant of that, because that's, you know, not always a great thing. In fact, it's often not a great thing when we're adding stuff we don't see in there. And so I guess, what are y'all's thoughts on that question? If, let's say I was an objector and I was very opposed to church membership, and that was the argument that I used was, hey, I don't see anybody placing membership, you know, anywhere. I don't see that process anywhere. What would your, what would your guys answer be to that? Because I can very easily, if somebody's listening to the, to this podcast with that point of view, to me, that is a legitimate question that would kind of rebut our position. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah, the, the counterpoint does lean on the visible, invisible thing. One of the messages I received suggesting this as an episode brought up a conversation that this guy had had with another Christian of, hey, are you guys going to place membership? Are you going to go through this process of placing membership here with the local church? And the response he received is, I became a member when I was baptized at 14, and essentially I'm a member of the church invisible. I'm a member of the church wherever I go. And so when I walk in the church here, the local churches are just gathering places for the, they're really not that significant. I think that's a bad idea, number one. So to address the idea of placing membership is not in there, again, it's because when you were baptized, you were part of it. And so read through the New Testament, or just read through the table of contents of your Bible. Romans, first Corinthians, two Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians. Why are those books called that? Because all of the Christians who were baptized in those cities were part of. [00:30:47] Speaker C: Their church congregations, right? [00:30:49] Speaker B: Who were receiving those letters. And there were elders in some of these churches like Ephesus. There were people like Titus and Timothy who were put there to install elders and to oversee the teaching and the early process and kind of getting the thing off the ground there for the Christians in that area. And so yeah, the local church is. Are you supposed to. Is there biblical precedent for somebody saying, I'm going to place membership as part of this, that I have to distinguish myself as part of this church as opposed to another? No, but the idea is throughout the entire New Testament, I mean, you see some of the charitable giving there in the New Testament and how it's spoken of, of, hey, the church in Corinth. I need a collection from you guys. The churches in Macedonia, Philippi. You guys are really giving. You're giving of what you have, even in your poverty. We're going to take this to the Christians at Jerusalem. What, did you just establish the local church in three different locales? I mean, like, this is. [00:31:45] Speaker C: Just because. [00:31:46] Speaker B: It doesn't say it explicitly. It was pretty clear that they consider themselves members of that local church. [00:31:53] Speaker A: We also see Paul riding ahead of certain people. Hey, except so and so, they're coming, right? He kind of gives a stamp of. [00:32:01] Speaker B: Approval, and the opposite. Not these guys. You know, I've delivered these guys speaks. [00:32:05] Speaker C: To the letter of recommendation point, correct? [00:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And be aware, you know, when, before you give him into your church. This is what's going on, or this is where this person is. Treat him as one of your own. He kind of lets him know he's a member here. He's coming to you guys, you know, so I think there is a little bit of that there. That's one of the arguments. There are some other arguments I do want to get to. [00:32:25] Speaker B: Um. [00:32:25] Speaker A: I would say the. Maybe the shallowest argument. Um. Man, you see this a lot. I come to God in my own way, not in the church of Christ. To our credit, I really don't see this very much in the church Christ, but I do see this more, um, community church, things like that. I come to God in my own way, and so kind of on my own terms, um, don't have to worry about membership. And really, the whole church thing. I don't know. I've been burned by church. Religion's kind of bad, but I come to Jesus. I mean, it's all in that vein, in my opinion, which is not really understanding the importance of religion. [00:32:59] Speaker B: It's a relationship, not a religion. [00:33:02] Speaker A: Right. It's that type of thinking. I do think that's the most shallow. There's the other idea, you know, Christian and church members aren't the same. I can be a Christian. I don't have to be a member of anywhere. I don't have to place membership just to be a Christian. Can you let me be a Christian? Without trying to harsh my mellow. I don't know, man. It's, to me, that's more the new age end of things, the side of it of like, I don't want to actually be hemmed in on something. I don't want to have to be part of something in that way. I want to kind of just be a loose, floating figure. If I come into a church, great. If I go out of a church, great. I come to Jesus in my own way. [00:33:41] Speaker C: It's the classic, I want all the benefits without any of the downside. It's the, and not, not to, not that we're rebutting, not that we're supposed to be rebutting these right now, but that, that whole mindset just drives me nuts. It drives me nuts even in day to day life with people who don't want to commit to the plans, like, you know, hey, can you get together and do this? Well, you know, I don't know. Let me. You know. And they never commit. And it's one of those things you can just kind of tell they're waiting until if see if they get a better offer and if they don't, then sure, though, but they don't want to commit. That's exactly what I see. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Again. [00:34:08] Speaker C: All of the up, all of the benefits with none of the, none of the downsides, none of the responsibility, none of the the duties, you might say. That's kind of what I see with this. But some other ones that you might throw out there that are a little bit more, have a little bit more substance to them as far as arguments go than the things that Joe just brought up are. You could argue, and, you know, a lot of people would argue that fellowship with multiple congregations, with, with, you know, more brethren is healthy. You have the family or the person. Maybe, maybe it's a side. I see this a lot with single people, actually, where they will kind of, you know, bounce around various congregations. You know, maybe there's five or six within a five mile radius. And so maybe one Sunday night they'll go here and talk to some of the brethren they know there, and then the next Sunday morning they'll go somewhere else and talk to some other brethren. And the argument could be made once again that that is a more healthy version, um, than being tied down to one place again. I think there's an answer for that, but that would be one that I would bring up. Jack, you already brought up that God, the acts 247, the idea that God adds you to the church. What are some other ones you throw out there, Jack. [00:35:07] Speaker B: Yeah, the idea, and this is again, kind of the invisible visible thing, but where we say church is the people, and there's a phrase that's, that's popular and there's some right in it and there's some wrong in it, that church is an organism, not an organization. That it's a living, breathing, it's a body. You know, it's, it's all of these things. And so again, it's the people and it's not an organization. No, that's wrong. It is an organization in the same sense. The family is an organization. [00:35:32] Speaker A: The body is. [00:35:34] Speaker B: The human body is an organization because the head is given all the directions. I mean, like there's different parts that have to do something. And really what all of these are getting at, especially the one, you know, Joe was talking about there with coming to God my own way or whatever, but just the idea of, I don't have to be a church member anywhere locally. It's very anti authority, it's very anti hierarchy. It's. And essentially we've come to the far and the pendulum swing away from the reformation priests and a pope and all that stuff. We don't need any of that. We don't need them telling us who God is and all that, which is great. We can read the Bible for ourselves. Um, you know, that, that there's a lot of important things in that, but it's gone too far to the other side of nobody can tell me anything. I am my own arbiter, I'm my own, you know, there's an avid brother song God, and I don't, my God and I don't need a middleman. And he's, you know, talking about, I don't need a priest, I don't need a preacher, I don't need somebody to stand between me and God. In a lot of ways that's true. In another sense, there are authority figures between most christians and God. There are, this is an organization that has a hierarchy that God has established and distributed these things. And so when they say, well, it's not an organization, it's an organism and not an organization. No, it's both of those things. And if you discount the organizational structure of the church, you're just on your own and you get to do whatever you want, which is what you're seeing from a lot of these anti authority kind of takes on the church. [00:37:01] Speaker A: There is a floating element to this, and that goes to maybe the last argument against membership that people might bring up, which is kind of this idea of what about the live stream church? What about those that are kind of on different campuses or you know, podcasts or whatever else where this is part of coming to your God, coming to God in your own way. But like I think that's a little bit again, of the floating around. Hey, you know, I'm live streaming church and I don't really have to be part of the body because I just catch it online and you know, I know pastor has to say like, yeah, exactly. Who, who checks in on you? And if you didn't watch it on the live stream, do you get a phone call from somebody going, hey brother, notice you didn't watch it on the live stream. No. If you don't give, if you don't partake the Lord's supper, which, how can you, it's communion and you're not communing with anybody in that situation, but in those things and everything we're talking about, most of these arguments, I very much feel to your point, Jack, are individualistic and very much not tethered to anything foundational, anything that is really going to help you be a better Christian. It's kind of like I'll do my own thing. I don't really need the organizational aspect of this organism, as you said so correctly and so perfectly so the other thing, and I think, will you reference this, but this idea of God adds you to the church, not man acts 247, that is one of those, as we are talking with the biblical authority and such people may say, well, God adds you. It's not for man to add you. And so who is an elder, who is somebody else to add you to the church? That's not at all what's being talked about. When you are baptized, yes, you were added to the church collective, to the church invisible to his body and his church. But we're talking on an individual congregational level, as we've already said, which I think that is brought up into the New Testament, which gets us into why we do believe it's important. As we said, cats out of the bag. You know where we stand on this at this point. But guys, I want you to get into and maybe will, I'll kick it off with you first. Why do we believe church membership is important really for every church to establish? [00:39:01] Speaker C: I'm going to skip one or outline, go to the second one, because I've had this question posed to me before from somebody who regularly attended a congregation that I used to attend. I mean, I'm talking was there every time, but did not want to place membership and kind of the argument that was used was the, you know, God adds me to the church and I'm a member of, I'm a member of the entire church, not just this, you know, this one church. And kind of in a very self justified way was like, yeah, I'm not going to place membership because I'm a member of the church, the church the world over, so to speak. And I used to kind of struggle with this again, because I did kind of have the, not the belief necessarily, but the inclination to say, well, you know, that is kind of a man made thing. And so maybe it is something that's not healthy, but as I've kind of grown and matured and this is something that I would respond to this individual whenever, whenever he would say things like that is then how on earth are the elders supposed to do their job? Think about if everybody had this mentality, if everybody had the mentality of, well, I remember the entire church and it doesn't matter if I go here one day and here the next day, and, you know, as long as I'm faithfully attending and as long as I am, you know, living out my christian life, it's again, the argument can be made. It's better for me to go to other congregations that truly undermines the entire purpose of elders and again, makes their job essentially impossible. Again, just play the thought experiment of every single person has that mentality. How would you know who to Shepherd, Jack? [00:40:28] Speaker A: Who's over your soul? Who's over your soul? [00:40:30] Speaker C: Jack's favorite analogy of building, of building fences. How are they going to build any fences if they don't know who their flock is, if they don't know if their flock is going to be in this pasture one day or they're going to be in another pasture over here, you know, tomorrow. It defies all common sense and logic of reading the New Testament. And we talked about this, you know, in the last point when I brought up, you know, the term and concept, so to speak, of placing membership is not really New Testament. But as Jack brought up, yeah, it is. It absolutely is because of the common sense way that you read the Bible and the New Testament, because of the conclusions that you can draw based on the congregations that were written to the churches of the seven churches in Asia and all these things like there would be no purpose for elders if this was the case, if it made more sense for it, or if the design was everybody just float around. There's one big church that everybody's a part of and not no local congregations how on earth are the elders going to have any authority? How are, how on earth are they going to be able to do their job? How are they going to shepherd anybody's souls? And so to me, I would love for anybody who's listening, who maybe is, is on the other side of our position to answer that, that, I guess, critique, you might say that argument, like, how are elders supposed to do their job if church membership is not necessary, if it is not important, people can just kind of float and attend here, attend there. To me, it completely takes out the need for elders and takes out the purpose and job of elders. So, guys, what would you have to add to that? And then maybe add some other things on here. [00:41:57] Speaker B: I would modify your question a little bit. You say, how do they do their job? I think you just have to go back a layer further and say, what is their job? What even is the point of an elder? Like? And they might have one, but, you know, well, to make sure that the preacher is preaching, you know, true doctrine, well, why does it matter? Isn't it up to every individual person? Haven't you just said it's up to everyone to study for themselves and know and believe what they're going to believe? Okay, so we've taken that out of the what, what is it? And so what is the job of an elder, I think is a very fair question. I think you make a great point there. I just wanted to read. I mean, there's a few verses we can look at first. Thessalonians 512, but we request, we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work, live in peace with one another. And he goes on from there giving more instructions about Christian living together. But those that labor among you, that have charge over you in the Lord, they are spiritual parents. I mean, that is the structure that you have. I taught a Bible class on this just the other day, that all of the structures of authority that God has given us essentially function the exact same way. And that is to encourage and, uh, promote good behavior and to discourage and prevent and, and punish bad behavior. Same goes for elders. And to your point, if people won't put themselves under elders, if it's just, well, you guys are there, but I can, you know, I can just jump ship anytime I want if I don't like it or whatever, or, you know, you, you try and get me to act in a certain way, behave a certain way that you think I'm supposed to, and I don't want that. I'm out of here. Well, you're violating pretty clear scripture right there. [00:43:34] Speaker C: Think about that in the terms of children with parents. I'm gonna go live at somebody else's house for most of the time. And I'm just kinda kind of rotate around and you don't really get to have any rules set over me. Any kind of guidelines. Nobody checking up on me. [00:43:45] Speaker B: It really does come across as immature as I'm running away from home, mom and dad. Because you made me clean my room. Exactly. [00:43:51] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Hebrews 1317. I was gonna read one, just one more. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. [00:44:05] Speaker A: I have first read five, two and three pulled up as well. Share with the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily according to the will of God, and not for sort of game, but with eagerness, nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock allotted to your charge. I mean, it is throughout the, the New Testament that, and this is where we get into, Americans really don't like being called sheep. Everybody wants to be the shepherd. No, not everybody's a shepherd. Sometimes if you're not an elder, you have to fall underneath that. You have to understand the hierarchy and the principles involved there. Whereas we're very libertarian and we want, we're individuals, we want to talk about, yeah, individualists. And that's really what this comes down to is it's an individual, individualized thing. We have to reject individualism. We see this all over the New Testament of all of the one another commands that were supposed to bear one another's burdens. And now I'm blanking on all the one another passages. But we see in Romans twelve, we see it in Ephesians four, one corinthians twelve. There's so many one anothers. First John has a bunch of one another passages bear one another's burdens. Galatians six. So all of these have one another's of what we're supposed to do in just helping one another be the best we can be. Why talk about one another so much? Unity. We are supposed to be together. John 17, you look at what Jesus prayed for in his last prayer, right? As I shouldn't say last because he goes to the garden. But like last prayer with the disciples where we're really seeing him just pour out his soul to God in that moment. Was he praying for, for them to be unified? So clearly that's important to God. Clearly, taking this, this idea of the church structure, that's a very important concept to God. And there's something so flippant and, yes, so arrogant, but also it's selfish and it's childish to take that structure and go, yeah, thanks, God, I'm good. I don't really need to fall into that. [00:45:52] Speaker C: I'm going to do my own thing. [00:45:53] Speaker A: I'm going to do my own thing. And really, I'm part of the collective. And this is the same ideas, in my opinion, of slacktivism, of, like, we need to go help those people over in Korea. Can you walk across the street and evangelize the guy next door? Or are you always thinking about the person over in Africa? Are you always thinking about the person over in Asia? Don't start talking to me about Africa until you start talking to me about what you're doing on your block. Everybody wants to talk about the church as a whole, the world as a whole. They want to help the world as a whole and send money over there. What are you doing for your fellow brothers and sisters? Nobody wants to keep it local, and nobody wants to keep it on that one, one on one level with real nitty gritty relationships. You know, things that. Relationships that are difficult. I'd rather have a relationship with a thousand people online across the world than I would with the person next door. That's the problem that we're dealing with here. [00:46:40] Speaker C: Well, you just brought up unity, and I'm surprised that hasn't really come up yet. How much harder is unity if everybody's just kind of floating around doing their own thing? If there's not these, these fences that the shepherds are supposed to bring up, if we're not recognized as a local congregation, as a part of a. A specific church body, man, how difficult would unity be? Again, you just kind of float here and there, and I'll see some people over here and some people over here. I mean, you could argue that maybe you have broader unity, but at the very least, it's going to be incredibly shallow. [00:47:09] Speaker A: You're. [00:47:09] Speaker C: You're not going to be able to form those deep relationships. If conflict arises, and we see this today, you just go down the street, go somewhere else, maybe don't attend that congregation for a while. I mean, again, this whole idea of unity that is preached in first corinthians one it's preached. Anytime those church body passages are brought up, unity is implied, and sometimes specifically brought up there by Paul. You have to have local congregations, and you have to have a structure where an eldership is set over as an authority over this group in order for there to be any kind of unity whatsoever. [00:47:40] Speaker B: I would say briefly, there's a ton of churches that don't have elderships. And so somebody would say, well, none of this applies. Titus was written to a preacher in a church that did not have elders. He was there to appoint elders and get guys ready for that role. And yet in that, he was still given church discipline tasks, he was still given things that they were supposed to do. There was still an expectation that the church members there were going to be listening to what Titus had to say. And that's essentially the same thing coming from Ephesians four, where Paul establishes the idea of the church as a body and what every joint supplies. And so you've got the members of the body in that. But it starts in ephesians 411 with the apostles and prophets and teachers and evangelists and like the shepherds. All of those things that are there is these people are in place to help you and equip you and get you where you need to be and you need to be connected to them and connected to one another. It's this whole body analogy, but to kind of tell a brief story to all this, we had a guy at a church I was preaching at years ago, showed up out of the blue. He said, yeah, you know, I've done some mission work. I did some preaching for a while, and, you know, I do some song leading. It's like, well, cool. And this is one of those where, hey, letters of recommendation would have come in handy. We would have known a lot of stuff right off the bat. But he showed up, showed up again that Wednesday night, showed up again that Sunday. And he was known to a couple. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Of the people there. [00:48:54] Speaker B: They had met him before. He had been in the area for a while, whatever it may be. Came for a couple months. You know, he was coming to our fellowship meals at my house on Monday nights and just involved in everything and calling, hey, what are we doing this week? Oh, is house meal at your house? Yeah, you know, like talking to this guy. I'm in contact with him. And so I ended up texting him, hey, we're doing this. We're getting together for a study on such and such night. And he text back, you know, I'm not actually a member of your church, right? Like, what I mean, you haven't placed membership, but you've been in kind of the common law thing. You've been coming here every time the doors are open for a while. So we just assumed, hey, you want to be part of this? No. Well, I've got ties over here, and I kind of like to bounce around and visit all the congregations. And he did, and it was very clear. Number one, he didn't want to be under the authority of any one congregation. But number two, keep everybody at just enough of an arm's length. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Get close to people. As soon as you start reeling them in, he pumps the brakes. [00:49:50] Speaker B: You know how much that hurts to invest time and again, the man was in my house multiple times, and it's like, yeah, I don't really actually want to be close with you. Well, the same thing with this whole. I fellowship with a number of different congregations. Look what that says to all of them. [00:50:04] Speaker C: I would argue him and other people also like that they do want to be close on their terms. [00:50:09] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:50:09] Speaker C: Not anybody else's individualism. [00:50:11] Speaker B: Again, I set this whole relationship. I get to be as close as I want, and then I get to back out. And you, what could I do in that moment? He wasn't a member. He wasn't. He says, well, it's not that I stopped attending. I just went to this other church for a couple months and I, you know, like, yeah, so you're on your own. You're, you're a loose cannon. [00:50:31] Speaker C: I can't get past. And I guess this is just us railing at this point. But, Joe, what you brought up earlier is exactly right. Like you're literally telling God. Yeah, God, I know you set up this way. No, thanks, I'm good. I would much rather do things my way. I would much rather be somebody who can kind of do everything on my own terms, not really have to commit to anything, and still kind of consider myself a Christian. The immaturity behind that, again, I will bring it up again, the, the flaky person who never wants to commit to any kind of plans because he just wants to kind of do his own thing and never have to commit. That's such a, that's, that reeks of immaturity. And yet again, we see that there's so many parallels there with this church membership discussion, because, Jack, what did that signal to you once again, as you just brought up there? You know, he wasn't all that invested, like you said, in any kind of close relationship. And so what that signals to everybody else in your congregation, especially when this is not even necessarily just tolerated, but, you know, encouraged. When you have elders who are allowing these people, you know, to just kind of come and go whenever they please, what does that tell the rest of the church who has placed membership and kind of committed to being there? Oh, well, I guess it's really not that big a deal if everybody, you know, if a lot of these other folks are just kind of going to get them to come and go when they please. And this is where this has a bit of overlap with our previous podcast episodes about elders, but specifically how it relates to church membership is, as Jack has said, you know, as I said earlier, make it clear, set those expectations of, this is what is expected of members. You don't just get to kind of come and go when you please. There is an element of making sure that you know, and we know you are a part of the body and as a part of the body. Ephesians 416, whatever joint supplies, you got to supply something. What you, what we have is people who don't want to commit to supplying anything, so they'll just back out, say, well, I'm not like, like that guy Jackson brought up. Well, I'm not technically a member, so I don't really have to supply anything. [00:52:20] Speaker B: I don't have to do nothing, essentially. Uh, there's one other point we didn't get to here, which we probably should, is the importance of placing membership. And again, you can say, well, that's not a biblical term. The concept is, I think we've, we've pretty well established bringing yourself under the leadership of a church and whatever else you want to add to that. But we don't do catechism, but it's important to get on the doctrinal same page with people. It's important to say, this is what we teach here. This is what we believe. Don't call it a you know what, but it's a, it's a what we believe page you know, of. Here's when you come to this church, you're going to hear teaching on these things. We're going to teach this about your, you know, your walk with God and what sin is and about what God's word is and what salvation looks like and all these things. And we need to know that you're in agreement with that, that when we preach these things, you're going to be on board with it, you're going to be submitting to it, you're going to be living like it. Uh, and, and that, hey, if we're going to call you out on not doing it. If we see you, you know, going against what we all agreed to, that's important. Again, it's making it clear we're all on the same page. We all agree that, you know, what? If, if I start cheating on my wife, that this, these, the elders are going to come knocking on the door and they're going to be talking to me and, you know, exercising church discipline. Like, it's important to have those things. The same thing about doctrinal, like the, the beliefs of the church of if I get up and teach this, they're going to get up and correct me and say, no, you don't get to teach again, like, get people on the same page. And if you just kind of have this at will come and go attitude, you don't have that. [00:53:52] Speaker A: And here's the other thing the church has to do, is we have to project the benefits of membership and what it means to tangibly be a member. And, you know, I don't know, I could get in the hot water here. I'm not saying we don't. Obviously, we treat the visitors well. I'm not saying that we don't invite them, you know, when to potlucks and things like that. But there also needs to be a strong and heavy emphasis on every worship setting of, like, this is, it is great to be a member. The more we preach to the visitors. And I know this is a little off, like this is a, this is a tangent for me and a little bit of a soapbox, but I want to make the worship service about the members and let people know it's important and it's special to be a member here. It is good to be a member at this congregation and to have this church family where we are invested in each other's lives. Because I want people that aren't members to be members. [00:54:40] Speaker B: I want to say, well, no, the worship is about God. But what you're saying is it is about God and it's done by the members. It's, you know, put on for the members to, to participate. [00:54:50] Speaker A: It ain't for the visitors. I could tell you that. [00:54:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:52] Speaker A: It is not for the visitors. It is not for everybody to see how many people we can get to come for. It's not about that, honestly. You know, see how many people we can baptize on the worship service. [00:55:00] Speaker C: It's not an advertisement for how great your church is to visitors. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Correct. It is for the members to worship God and praise God together and for there to be a collective like, whoa, this is great. To be a part of. We want people to recognize it's the same thing as an exclusive club. Everybody wants to be a part of Club XYZ. Why? Because there's benefits to being involved in this. And I think we need to let people know this is set up by scripture. There are benefits to being involved in this. The partaking of the Lord's supper hot topic that's gone around. Jack has done a fantastic job on that one. Look, that's a privilege of being a part of it. There are privileges involved with being a part of this church family. And I just want to hit on that, as well as why it's important. We have to recognize the privileges of being in the body of Christ, being a part of the church, and yes, being a part of the local church, being able to help the local church in a very specific way. Man, it's the best. It is the best. And you miss out on that in this individualized world of, well, I'll just be a member of the church Invisible, the church collective, the church at large. No. Plant your roots in something and fight for what is valuable in middle Tennessee, you know, in Dixon or burns, Tennessee, where our church is. Wherever you may find yourself, fight for that church. Be the best member you can be at that church and make this a special church where people look at that and go, I want to be a member there. I want to be a part of that. When you can do that, and when the church is truly a family and you're doing what you can and making it exclusive in a way, people will notice and people say, there's something different about that church we're already seeing in Jackson Temple. We've already grown, we've already had people that have recognized the difference that we offer at our congregation because we very much try to make it special for the members. Recognizing, man, we have a family here that's really cool to be a part of. So I just want to hit that part as well. [00:56:45] Speaker B: But you have to be so drenched in modern individualism to read the New Testament and have the takeaway be, it's all about me and my relationship with God, rather than sacrificing yourself to something so much bigger than yourself. I mean, like that, what did Jesus do? I mean, like, it just blows my mind that this is the approach. And it really honestly gets me mad when there is that disrespect towards the local church, disrespect toward that, that I'm kind of above that. And it's one of those things where they, this is what Paul writes about this, of those that kind of always attain the like, building up knowledge but never coming to an understanding of the truth. People that when the knowledge puffs up, people like, well, I know enough bible to know that placing membership's not in there. I know better than you, you simpletons that place membership. I have transcended that because as a more spiritual person, it's like, right. You haven't got your foot in the door. You haven't even started. Get yourself under an eldership that's going to whip you into shape because you're in trouble. [00:57:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Coming out strong. Love it. I love it. Well, fellas, this has been, this has been a fun one to record. Any closing or any last thoughts as we look to kind of wrap up this outline. [00:57:56] Speaker B: I would just. [00:57:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I would just go real quick on that note to challenge everybody who's listening to consider truly how. How much this is missing in modern, not even just christendom in the church of Christ, how much this is missing. And not just how much this is missing, but how much, you could argue greater our church experience would be, and not that it's about us, but like, how much greater your relationships would be, how much greater you. I mean, right now, for most members, even of the Church of Christ, their church life is just that it's relegated to a certain part of their life. I've got my church life and I got my work life, my fun life, my, my vacation life, my whatever, and then, oh, I got my church life, you know, 810 hours a week, maybe two days or so. Think about how enriching this makes it when you consider everything we've talked about of membership holding much more importance and being invested in each other's lives. And this is really the basis of what Jack's church reset was about, of having the, you know, shouldn't church be more, having these deeper relationships, being more invested again? It would be. It would just be so much more enriching if this individualistic mindset was weeded out of the church more and this man, church membership is necessary, an important mindset was brought into the church more. I would just challenge everybody to consider how much more enriching your quote unquote church life would be if this was the mentality. [00:59:17] Speaker A: And I'm going to give one more challenge. Yeah, I'm going to give one more challenge because you may listen this go. We already do this. Okay. You know, we already. My name. I got my name and my, my family's picture up on the board. We already have a church membership. I, those are weirdos that don't have to. Okay, okay. Um, here's my challenge for you. If you are part of a congregation where there already is a membership and everything else, and you don't feel it's individualistic, I challenge you to go look at the board or go to your directory. If you have a picture directory, whatever it is, go to the board with everybody there. Look into the eyes of everybody in that picture. Pray for them. First off, I would pray for each person. If you can maybe take a picture or whatever it is, pray down the congregational list and recognize and truly think about we are in a battle, a spiritual warfare for everybody's soul on that board, and we are all trying to get to heaven. And when you think about we are, we're in a platoon here. This is a battle that we're supposed to be in together and help each other think about that. Are we, do I know that? Do I even know that person over there? Wow, I haven't seen them in weeks. Haven't thought about, now you're getting it. Now you're understanding membership matters. And again, there's privileged member, there's also responsibilities to being a member. And so if you are part of a congregation with that, you know, you say, we already get the membership thing. Great. How seriously do you take it? Think about that, look at that board and recognize. Do I really feel like I'm in a battle for, for heaven or hell here with every person on this board, or am I still kind of individualized in how I'm approaching this? So that would be my other challenge there. But, Jack, any other thoughts you have? [01:00:48] Speaker B: Lots of them, but we got to get out of here, so. [01:00:53] Speaker A: All right, well, with that, we will wrap. We probably do have some more thoughts for the deep end. And of course, we'll get to your questions, your comments. I'm going to use the term for the third time. I think we can get into more of the nitty gritty if you have questions on that, of. Okay, how long does a person need to come to congregation before we can get in some of those questions? If you have those, we'd be happy to. In the deep end on focus. Plus with that, though, fellas, we're going to wrap up. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you again next week.