How the Holy Spirit Works Today

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Jack Wilke with you here with Joe Wilkie and Will Harab once again this week to talk about the Holy Spirit. It's a topic that I guess has been, I mean, it's always a relevant topic, but it's a topic that has gained extra steam over the last month or so. There's been some online debate. There's been a lot of content. I have written on it and have been a guest on another show about it. And a lot of people are just talking about the Holy Spirit. And the churches of Christ have a very unique view of the Holy Spirit, and so we're going to get into that, or at least a unique division of views and where everyone stands on it. And so that's what we're going to get into. But we're going to talk about who the spirit is, what he does, why he so important. I think a lot of people have a pretty good idea of the Father. A lot of, you know, obviously with Jesus the Son, pretty straightforward, pretty clear. His work, the spirit being subjective, being unseen, being all of the qualities of the spirit make this topic a lot more challenging, make understanding him and his work more difficult. And so it's a really important thing we're going to get to at the end, why it matters so much, why this isn't just, well, kind of believe what you want about the spirit. No, I mean, this is, this is important theology, real practical theology. So that's what we want to get into this week. You guys have any opening remarks before we kind of dive in? [00:01:30] Speaker B: Joe, you're obviously going to kind of lead the outline here. But one of the things that I wanted to say to start is it is very interesting to me, and this is, this is the product of it being very, very difficult to understand. But all three of us grew up in the church. You think about how many sermons you have heard in your life on the God the father, love of God, grace of God, whatever. Think about how many sermons, lessons you've heard on Jesus, different aspects of him. Now think about how many lessons you've heard on the Holy Spirit. For me, I can, I can most certainly count on one hand. It's not very many. And so this is something that I think is overwhelming for a lot of people. Like they just kind of hear the words the Holy Spirit, whether it's biblical students or even as, even as ministers, as people who are able to study the Bible kind of for a living, and it's still just daunting. It's overwhelming. Like, man, there's so much complexity there. There's so much confusion, disagreement, debate. And so, yeah, the shying away from it is just very natural. But I think what that has led to is pews full of people who either a have no idea about the Holy Spirit as far as, like, what. What it does. But then secondly, who are just kind of completely oblivious to what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit because we tend to kind of avoid those verses as well. So that was the only thing I had to say to get us started and to introduce this topic is there's a lot of people, myself included, who was like, man, I really wish I knew more about the Holy Spirit. [00:03:05] Speaker C: Yeah. For having such an important. He's part of the godhead. Like, that's really, really, really important. And yet this is a trend in the churches, churches of Christ specifically, in my opinion, which is if we don't understand it, we don't discuss it. But it's also, it's interesting because the godhead is kind of like eternity. You can't really wrap your mind around. [00:03:26] Speaker B: It's hard to fathom. Yeah. [00:03:28] Speaker C: Yes, it's very hard to fathom. Like, you sit and think about eternity, and we always do it in year, like tens of billions of years. It's still years. Right? Like, you can't have really grasp eternity. And it's the same. We have our own ways of grasping the godhead, but we can't fully grasp it. And so because of that, we just kind of avoid it. There are other things that this takes place, I think, in the churches of Christ where we don't want to have the conversations if we can't fully rationally explain what it is. And so therefore, we, by and large, avoid this, as you guys are talking about. But the Holy Spirit shows up a lot in scripture. And so with him being a distinct member, I guess the question would be, is he a distinct member of the Godhead? That is kind of the first question. I throw this out. Obviously, all three of us believe he is a distinct member of the Holy Trinity. There are people who believe he is not that really. It's an it rather than he, that it is merely the spirit inside of God that is not its own distinct member, but it is a part of God the Father. Therefore, you have this duo. Instead of a trinity, you have a. What's, what's the term? A binary. But like, you know, a back and forth. Like there's only two members of Godhead. Duality, maybe. Yeah, there you go. Duo. Yeah, the duo. The godhead duo. So what are your thoughts on this, guys, when we get into. And this is a, what you'll find, Jack, you already referenced this, the Church of Christ has some interesting beliefs on this. Most of the world, I would say most of specifically christendom in general, takes that there is a trinity that he is, there is a personal indwelling that. I mean, I think there is a large majority that believe that in the world of Christianity. But when you get into church of Christ, you know, christians, we do kind of separate and split off. And so the first one that we kind of come up against is this duality here of God, son, and then the spirit living in God the father, not his own distinct member. What would you say to that? [00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, you really got to look at, obviously, classically, so many times with trinitarian discussion, we go to the baptism of Jesus, the descending of the dove, the voice from heaven, and of course, Jesus there in the water. And so you have three. But some would say, well, that spirit is just, or the dove is just God placing his spirit upon Jesus. But you've just got too much personalization given to the spirit, like in one corinthians two, where it talks about the spirit searching the depths of the mind of God, the spirit revealing the mind of God and things like that, and just the unique working of the spirit. And John 14, of course, Jesus talking about himself and the father, and he's going to go to the father and he's going to send this helper, this other one, this one that's going to come along beside us. And John 16, where he talks about what the spirit is going to do in the world and convict the world of sin, and very much speaking personalized, it's not just kind of God's attitude. God's, you know, if you said Joe's spirit, that's not a separate being, but if you started talking about it acting and thinking almost not independently, but in its own way. Yeah, that, that would be a whole different discussion we're talking about there. [00:06:43] Speaker B: I think it's important to point out, Joe, you've got this on the outline, that the spirit is present in the first two verses of Genesis, and it's marked with a distinction. So if you look at Genesis, chapter one, obviously, we know verse one, beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then verse two, the earth was without form and void. Darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. So what that tells me as a reader of God's word is two things. Number one, it tells me that the spirit was not created because the spirit of God was there hovering over the face of the water. But then, secondly, why didn't he, why didn't Moses just write and God was hovering over the face of the waters. There is a distinction there that is made of the spirit of God was hovering the face of the waters. And then obviously later on in the chapter, this is a pretty familiar place to go as well, when discussing the Trinity and when discussing the Trinity's involvement in creation. And that is verse 26, when right after he has created man, or right before, rather, he's about to create Manda, God said, let us make man in our image according to our likeness. There you have those three pronouns that are denoting a plurality there. God is not. He doesn't say, let. Now I'm going to make man in my image. There's a plurality there. Let us in our image. And so the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, has clearly been something that the scripture talks about all the way back to the original creation, the very early verses, the first chapter in genesis. And as Jack said, there is a less of an impersonal force and more impersonal terms there. [00:08:17] Speaker C: I think if you go back to, so Genesis one, I do think we see the Godhead there. We see God created the heavens and the earth, the spirits hovering over the surface water. Verse three, God said, let there be light. That's the word of God. We see this in John one, where he is the word that, you know, everything comes into existence through him. So the spoken word, Jesus is the creator, God's kind of the mind. The spirit is driving things. I think you see that there. If you go to Ephesians four, there's the seven ones talking about unity. And he specifically says, one body, one spirit, one hope and calling, one lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father. I think you see the trinity there. You see it throughout scripture where there are. The spirit is clearly a distinct thing. Now, you could look at it and go, there's one spirit inside of it. No, I don't think that's what it's talking about. There is a spirit that is unifying all of us as the Holy Spirit, because they would say the capital s in that passage is added later. And they might say that again, it's just an internal spirit. But there are too many passages in scripture where the spirit is a distinct person on its own. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Just to add one more here, I've been studying through the book of Romans and Romans, chapter five, verse one, therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, and then continues on down to verse five, where it says, now, hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. So that's about a five verse section there where you do once again see all three elements of the Godhead there. Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Just to add one more. [00:09:44] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think the way that Jesus is the word of God, but he is his own distinct member of the Godhead, because you could easily say, well, Jesus is just a voice of God. He's not his own distinct part, he's just the voice of God. Right? The same way that the spirit's not its own distinct part, it's just the spirit inside God the Father. And so what you end up with is a unitarian. There's only one God. You know, God the Father. There's not a trinitarian, and yes, there is only one God, but there's three distinct members. You can whittle it down to there's only one distinct member. The only difference is Christ came in the flesh, and so we can, we absolutely have to separate those two. The spirit hasn't come into the flesh, but he indwells is, or at least what we're going to get to. What we believe is that he indwells us. So didn't want to spend a ton of time on this, but this belief is out there that he is not his own distinct member, he's merely a part of God. And I just think there's too much in scripture to point to all three members being present in different places. [00:10:35] Speaker A: But even with the great mission, you're baptized in the name of the Father, son, Holy Spirit. I mean, that'd be very weird to add a non person entity to the. [00:10:44] Speaker B: That. [00:10:46] Speaker A: What am I trying to say here? That order of things. [00:10:50] Speaker C: And so, yeah, I agree, and maybe get into the greek and how it's not ordered this way in the greek or whatever else, but God the spirit, his spirit and Jesus, you could almost make a better case if that's the way that it was ordered. God his spirit and Jesus, you'd be like, oh, see, it kind of goes in. No, it's God or, you know, Father, son, holy Spirit. So, yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's too much for that, however, that leads us into how does he operate, because I think this is really where the case gets stronger, is there is a distinct member of the Godhead that is operating in a specific way. But this is where a lot of people go. We don't really want to get into this discussion because he does operate miraculously throughout scripture in ways he operates also non miraculously, I would say. But when we get to today, we don't really know what to do with him, and we're going to get to that. But before we do, as I guess I'm driving the outline and I'll start with will first. I'm the one asking all the questions today, but how do we start seeing him? We go back to the Old Testament because there's this idea of like, the holy spirit. We basically don't see him in the Old Testament, is what a lot of people, I think a lot of people believe. Like, we barely see him in the Old Testament. He doesn't really operate that much today. And so there's the slim time period of Jesus coming where the spirit kind of makes a big difference, maybe in the first century with those christians. And that's pretty much all he operates in. And that's just absolutely false. As the member of the Godhead, he's there in Genesis one, two. He's there at the end of all things. I do believe he's working today. But let's go back to the Old Testament. Well, how do we see him specifically operating back then? [00:12:17] Speaker B: You see a phrase repeatedly, and this was a small study that I did a while back, just all the time, specifically in judges. And then first and second Samuel, where that phrase the spirit of the Lord came upon so and so. You see that good bit in the old Testament. Um, you've got a few, um, on our outline here, Joe, but you see it in judges. When it comes to Gideon, you see it referring to Samson. Uh, he tore a line in half, killed a thousand men with a donkey's jawbone, uh, there in the book of judges. But obviously, once again, when you look at the spirit of the lord leaving saul, King Saul, the spirit of the Lord came upon. The spirit of the Lord came upon. You see that repeatedly in the Old Testament. And that is once again a very distinct. There's a distinction made there that it was that it is a being that is not a person, but it's not just an it. He, the spirit of the Lord came upon so and so. And once again, it just read through judges. Just read through first and second Samuel. Those typically are enjoyable reads for people because it's a lot of narrative, there's a lot of stories, a lot of characters. There specifically with David and Saul. But that, that would be one way in the Old Testament that you see, it is the spirit of the Lord coming upon so and so to do great things. Again with Gideon, with Samson, the spirit of the Lord coming upon them. These are things that almost certainly they would not have been able to do. I mean, Samson was really strong, of course, but a lot of that was because the spirit of the Lord came upon him. So he's able to tear a line in half. He's able to do these great, seemingly miraculous or supernatural, whatever word you want to use, things because the spirit of the Lord came upon him. Jack, I'll hand over to you for any other old Testament things that we see. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah. With Moses, you have talked about where he has the spirit of the Lord, but also where he has to delegate authority, and that spirit is passed from him and divided him. The spirit is over each of them, to judge, to lead the people, to help them make decisions, the things that they're doing. So Moses doesn't have to bear that entire burden himself. And so you have that kind of thing where it's less miraculous, it is more leadership, it is more philosophical, rather than this physical, external manifestation. And I think that's some of what you see with Saul and David is he's the king. He has the spirit. And through his disobedience, God says, I'm not going to be with you anymore. And with David, when he sins with Bathsheba, what does he say in psalm 51? Don't take your holy spirit from me. He probably is well aware of what happened with Saul and things. I don't want to go down that road. I want the spirit. I need the spirit to lead. None of that was miraculous. None of that was raising the dead, speaking in tongues, any of those kinds of things. It was leadership. It was conscience, it was heart, it was things like that. And then one that kind of falls in the middle is Bezalel with the tabernacle, where God says, choose that guy to lead the construction of the tabernacle. They're going to do all this ornate crafting of gold and all the incredible things they were going to build into the tabernacle and the altar and the ark of the covenant. And he gives the spirit to Bezalel to head up this project, to make sure it gets done according to God's specifications. And so there's God equipping and strengthening and filling in that way. And so I think it sets the tone that it mirrors very well what we see in the New Testament. [00:15:38] Speaker C: Yeah. When you get to the New Testament, we see him pretty early on, we talked about Matthew three, and it seems to kind of have this continuum because the Holy Spirit, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think we see him a lot throughout the prophets, but we do see he is coming along and he's giving, like he's inspiring the prophets. I think we do know that of the way he's inspiring, but a lot of the discussion kind of goes, I don't know, we're not seeing a whole lot of the spirit throughout those. But then when we start the New Testament, Matthew three, I mean, we're talking three chapters in at Jesus baptism. Jack, you already referenced that. And then we see right at the beginning of Matthew four, he's leading Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. So the spirit is already picking up kind of where we left off in terms of like, hey, he's still very relevant. And so we do see him inspiring people back then. We do see him giving them these supernatural powers, whatever it is. And then he comes upon Jesus and he's doing the same exact thing. Because I don't think Jesus is doing any, any miracles before this, despite the clay pigeons and things like that, that are doves or whatever, that he turns. Gospel of Thomas apocryphal. That's one of the reasons why we avoid those things, is seven years old. Jesus is doing it like, no, not until the spirit descends on him is he doing these miraculous things, much like a samson, a gideon, a Moses, whatever it is, like the spirit is still leading people and leading jesus in that way, but then he leads them up into the, um, the wilderness, and then there are, I think it's sprinkled throughout. But mainly where we're seeing him in the New Testament and where we start coming into this discussion, John 13 through 17, Jesus is in the upper room. He talks about it's better for the spirit to come. He's the helper, right? It's better for me to leave and for the spirit to come. And the, the apostles are obviously the ones we're going to see this the most, um, in the New Testament is a lot of the miraculous, but that's not everything. So we see miracles taking place, acts two, and following the, the fire, tongues of fire on their head, right then they're speaking in tongues. And then we see right after this where they're healing people, hearing a blind man, and they're going throughout and doing all of these amazing things. Uh, and you have people who want the Holy Spirit. So they can do all the miracles. Um, but then you get into how he works among christians, and I think that's where things start to go haywire for us, is up to this point, you can go from Genesis one up through basically the end of acts and go, okay, it's all miraculous. Sure. Which I think there's a lot of times throughout acts that it's not miraculous, but people can make that case. That's where it gets difficult, is when he gets into the church, how does he work outside of the non miraculous? And I think there are verses. We'll look at it here in a second. But will. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah, just a question. Another place that you see the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. This is an interesting one that I should have put on the outline. I'm going to kind of just spring on you guys. But in acts chapter five, very familiar. Ananias and sapphira, it is specifically mentioned that they. That they lied to the Holy Spirit. So acts chapter five and verse three, Peter said, anise, why is Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of land for yourself? Again, they're not. Why did you lie to. Why did you lie to God? Why did you lie to your savior? Why did you lie to the Holy Spirit? I was curious your guys's thoughts on that. I don't. I personally don't recall any. And, you know, maybe I should look it up before any other place in scripture where you see kind of that concept of lying to the Holy Spirit. But that is specifically what Peter reprimands and then ananias for, and, of course, eventually dies. What do y'all make of that? The distinction there of lying to the Holy Spirit? Again, kind of a. Kind of a. What's the word I'm looking for? Audible. Like, I didn't. Didn't let you guys know ahead of time, but. Curveball. Yeah. What are your thoughts? [00:19:13] Speaker C: Our resident scholar. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think they would look at it at that time as the spirit operating so strongly there among the church and the miracles that they were doing, and they were preaching by the spirit and all that. And so the reason that they were able to call it out is the spirit that the apostles had. And so he comes and lies to him, and immediately Peter says, yeah, you're lying to the spirit. Well, that's because Peter has the spirit. And basically you're like, you could lie to Peter, but since Peter has the spirit, you know, as the apostle, as the leader there, as you're really lying. Yeah, like, okay, you're not going to get this past him. So what do you, why are you trying like this? You're not really recognizing. So. But yeah, thanks for springing that on us. That's. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, of course. [00:19:59] Speaker C: Way to go. No, but I'd say the same thing. [00:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah, Joe's just like, yeah, whatever Jack said. For sure. [00:20:03] Speaker C: Exactly. That sounds great. That sounds. I had no idea, but that sounds great. [00:20:06] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say. Yeah, exactly. [00:20:08] Speaker C: You stole it right from me. But no, I think because you are dealing amongst christians who are all filled with the holy spirit, specifically Peter and the miraculous. Yeah, I would say that is the case. But then you get into, are there ways that the apostles and or people at the time, you know, christians at the time had the spirit where it was not miraculous? And well, get into the main views here in a bit, which is the charismatic, more of the miraculous is the only through the word, word only approach and then the personal indwelling. We want to spend a lot of the time on our outline because this is where we get into the differences. But just to wrap up the New Testament, some of the other things that we see, we see in Romans eight that he is interceding for us with groanings, too deep for words. Right. He's helping us in our prayer. We see John 16, he's convicting the world concerning sin and judgment. He's the seal of our redemption. In Ephesians 114, we know we can grieve the Holy Spirit, we can quench the Holy Spirit. So there are certain passages throughout that seem to indicate he is working in non miraculous ways at the time. Like, I still believe that he is interceding for us in our prayers. There's no reason to believe Romans eight is all miraculous. He is still interceding with groanings too deep for words, the same way Jesus is still on, you know, helping us as the high priest, Hebrews four, letting us boldly approach God as our intercessor there. So I think those things are relevant throughout the New Testament. And that's why we do believe in, you know, that the Holy Spirit is still continuing. We're going to get more into that. But that also brings us to today, which is, is he still working today? And that gets us into, like, that's the big question everybody asks. It's easy to look at some of the Old Testament passages, easy to look at some of the New Testament passages. And then I'm afraid that there's a lot of people in the church, Christ, that kind of believe. Like he inspired those to write the words, the scriptures. He works in those. But Jesus or the Holy Spirit is essentially kind of, he's taken a backseat for the last 2000 years since miraculous or the miracles have ended, which, first corinthians 13, right. When, when the perfect comes, we always assume that's the word of God, so that the, the scriptures and confirming the word, confirming the gospel was done through miracles, and then it seems that has ceased. So we're not doing miracles today. That means if you are taking the Holy Spirit as largely miraculous in the New Testament, his work has ceased in a large portion. In a large part. This has created a lot of controversy among those in the church of Christ, especially recently this has been coming up. And so it gets us into the main views and the three main views. As I already said, I think there's a charismatic view, which is where you would get kind of the Pentecostals and things like that, that he's very much active. We're still doing miracles. We're speaking in tongues, things like that. Then you get those who are. Yeah, the word only. He's only operating through the word. He doesn't, he's not physically indwelling us. He only operates through that. And then you have the personal indwelling where he. There is a physical indwelling there. Spoiler alert. As we've already said, that is what we believe. But we do want to do due diligence to these other ones, and so will, if you want to. I want you to kick us off on some of the main views, specifically the charismatic and maybe steel man at first, where they might go, what passages they might go to, to say these things are still taking place, or their logic, and we want to be able to work through these. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Hey, folks, I'm excited to tell you about this month's sale where we've got the think deeper branded, insulated tumblers on sale at the focus press store. So you can sip your coffee in style and let the world know you're a deep thinker. Check those out again. The sale runs all of [email protected]. dot. [00:23:35] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think a lot of the proponents of what we would call the charismatic view would point to somewhere like a first corinthians, chapter 14, where, you know, it's so interesting. Prophecy and speaking in tongues is such a sticking point for this whole discussion. Miraculous gifts, the Holy Spirit working. Obviously, we believe according to scripture that it did work that way back in the New Testament times, first century church. Does it still. Well, again, somebody from the charismatic viewpoint would point to one corinthians, chapter 14. I'm going to just read the first five verses very quickly, just to. We kind of get a lot of comments sometimes, like, hey, you guys should read more scripture instead of just referencing it. So we're going to do that first corinthians 14, starting in verse one. This is right, of course, on the heels of the love chapter that everybody's familiar with now abide faith, hope, love, these three. But the grace of these is love. Chapter 14, verse one. He says, pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit. He speaks mysteries, but he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in the tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied, for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets that the church may receive edification. Continues on discussion there of speaking in tongues and spiritual gifts and such. But this is certainly, if I was somebody who was trying to argue that, hey, you know, speaking in tongues, prophesying as a work of the Holy Spirit, is something that still goes on today. This certainly would be a champion passage to go to. And it's something that I do think as somebody who grew up in the church of Christ, this is why a lot of people tend to get a little bit skittish when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Doing anything but operating through the word is because we look at somebody who, and I've had people tell me, like, oh, yeah, my, my grandfather, um, brought somebody back from the dead because of the holy spirit. Like, just wild stuff like that, you know, doing healings and such. And, uh, again, just the speaking in tongues and everything that we're reading about here, there's people that very much believe that based on passages like this, based on whatever personal experiences that they have, that it still operates that way. And so I will turn it back to one of you, whoever one of you wants to take it. When it comes to, how would you debate that? Somebody who says, I mean, Paul clearly says, I wish you all spoke with tongues. And so is that a. Is that a, um. [00:26:09] Speaker C: I. [00:26:10] Speaker B: What's the word, cultural type of passage where you point to, hey, that's what was going on at the time and no longer applies. [00:26:15] Speaker C: What would you say, it is interesting because when you look at somebody like a Benny Hinn or these miracle, miraculous doers, right? And I think we've all seen the one where the, you know, he holds the mic to the guy and the guy goes, you know, and then the guy takes off and starts running. And it's kind of funny, it's comical, but to them it's very real, and they're speaking a heavenly language. It's just a God. And who are you to say otherwise? That's kind of where they go to, is like, this is for me and God. God understands me. You don't have to understand me. Maybe you haven't been given the gift of interpretation, but I know this is between me and God. And so that's, again, kind of a champion passage. I think, for them that they may be able to say that, but I would look at it and say, what's going on in first corinthians 14? Well, yeah, they have a church that is full of miraculous gifts at the time, and it's absolute chaos. And so you do have people speaking in tongues, and you do have women speaking up and prophesying in the middle of things, and you do have, like, everything must be done in order. That's where we get that. Um, is just in this first corinthians, like, basically ten through 14 arc. There's kind of an arc there with all of the eleven through 14 with the miraculous gifts, things like that. Um, and I would say, yeah, this is specifically written to a church that's struggling to understand how to use the gifts that they've been given, which is very miraculous. I think you could look at other churches, which we're going to look at. Romans, uh, Romans, it talks about. I want to come and establish you and give you gifts in one verse. Eleven. I don't think they had a whole lot. If they did have miracles, I don't think there were a ton of miracles going on. So I think this is specifically written to a church where, yes, most of the people could, or a lot of the people could do miracles. But first corinthians 13, if that's how we take it, then I think those have been done away with, because what is the purpose? That's really what we have to ask ourselves when we're debating. This is what is the purpose of being able to do miracles? We see epaphroditus. You go to Philippians two. We see epaphroditus, who is suffering. He's not in good shape. This is Philippians. That's Philippians two, he's not. Paul doesn't save him. Paul doesn't do use his miraculous powers to save paphroditis, even though he's his buddy. And he says, man, it'd be a great grief if he died. Why? Because it wasn't about just saving whoever he could. It was about establishing it wasn't a superpower, right? Correct. So you look at this and you go, okay, what about the speaking in tongues? This is about establishing the word, and it's about a church growing closer in that way to God in a miraculous way. We don't need that now, because we do have the word to bring us closer to Christ and to bring us closer to God. And so that's how I would handle the charismatic is like, why would we be doing these things? Why would he give us the gift of prophecy? It's not some parlor trick where it's like, hey, that's really cool. It was mainly to establish God's presence is with us. Well, now we do have the word. I think it's also possible to swing the pendulum to, okay, well, then there's no room for the Holy Spirit, because we already have the word. We don't need the miraculous. We don't do miracles. We just need the word. Therefore, the indwelling is missing in there somewhere, which we'll get to in a moment. [00:29:06] Speaker A: But Jack, what are your thoughts even in that? Like, the, in the New Testament time, the fruit of the spirit was not tongue speaking. The fruit of the spirit was character. And they really will play this up as, like, this is to show the God is really in you, is when you can start doing these things. And where he's talking about there in first corinthians 14, earnestly, desiree, you see that? Like, man, I'm just waiting until I can speak in tongues. So there's that side of it of, even in the New Testament, it was not the sign of your Christianity, of your faithfulness, was being able to speak in tongues. The other side of it is this is all relatively new, like 19 hundreds. Early in California, Pentecostalism sprung up, and it spread like wildfire because, like, wow, what is this going on? What are these people doing? This is kind of the shocking imagery of it got people's attention and some people really bought it. And so, um, however, prior to that, this is a pretty spotty thing throughout church history. And, yeah, I don't think this is something a lot of people take seriously. But on the other hand, it's important that we introduce it because you got to show how far out it is that when certain people go and oh, by the way, if you say the spirit indwells you, you're, you're one of those. No, it's a pretty far journey to get all the way over there. [00:30:22] Speaker C: It is interesting. I was talking to somebody the other day in, they had a difficult time with God because they grew up in that. They hadn't had any, God hadn't come on them, they weren't speaking in tongues. And it was like really deflating to them. It's like God hasn't spoken to me yet. God has not allowed for this. And it just, because you hear that. [00:30:41] Speaker B: In the denominational world, so much of either God speaking to somebody or like, maybe the spirit just moved me and it's a, and you can tell that maybe a lot. For a lot of them it's dramatic or whatever, but for some of them, it's not. For some of them it's very sincere of like, I truly believe the spirit guided me to this. And once again, us in the church of Christ, look at that and go, whoa, whoa. You know, you're taking a little far there. And maybe people are, but I think there's a lot of people that, like you said, joe, it's like, man, God's not speaking to me. There's, I don't really feel much guidance by the spirit. And so I think that creates a lot of the confusion. [00:31:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we don't fully understand how he works. And so you get, even in the church, Christ, you get some people like, boy, God hasn't spoken to me, you know, but because you do hear this more in the denomination, there are some Baptists and such. There are some that are like not as far adjacent as maybe the Pentecostals. Like we would say they're very far off, the Baptists, to varying degrees, we're still off, obviously, but like, they're not believing in miracles, but they still have a lot of people that think that he's kind of, in a roundabout way, miraculously leading them. God spoke to me or the spirit led me here, things like that. So this is a subtler, that's more subtle maybe, is what I'm saying, a more subtle way of the miraculous taking place. But I am curious your guys's thoughts on that because we can swing to the charismatic, like, whoa, okay, nobody's actually healing kids. Nobody's actually speaking in tongues in this way or prophesying. However, still on that charismatic scale, this side of the pendulum, you do have those that say God led me. God spoke to me and told me to go here. What are your thoughts on that? Like I said, that comes a little closer to home with a, again, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, whatever it is, we're still off. We're not, we're not saying that we're the same, but, like, they're not as far out as the Pentecostals that are really, you know, doing some crazy stuff. What would you say to somebody like that? Because I know I've had this matter of fact, I went over and went to Ghana and spoken or taught in the school over there at Bear Valley extension school, and there were several people that were like, yeah, this is so, first off, a witch doctor did this, and then, you know, I had a specific dream, and God told me this in a dream, and the Holy Spirit kind of came upon me and I went and did this, and it kind of solves the issues. And you're going, I was teaching first corinthians. It's like what we just don't have, you know, but they're very big into those beliefs and the spiritual, and because they have witch doctors and things like that, it wasn't a far stretch for them to believe that God legitimately was talking to them through dreams or leading them specific places. What are your thoughts on that? [00:33:11] Speaker A: Yeah, you really have to get people to define their terms as to what they're saying. When they say God spoke to me, sometimes they mean literally by a Bible verse. And so you get, well, God spoke to me. What do you mean he spoke to you? Well, you know, and I was reading in Romans, and it said to do that. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I opened the Bible and it turned to this verse. Yeah, right? [00:33:29] Speaker A: On the other hand, some people are like, yeah, I heard a whisper in my ear, like, okay, hang on a second. You know, those are two different things. Or like you said, you know, in a dream, God came to me and told me what to do. Like, man, if he operated that way, it would be very weird for him to operate that way only for certain people. And what happens? You have people. God told me. I remember as a kid, we knew some people that were kind of, they were in big box community church kind of thing, and they kind of had this. God spoke to me, and their 13 or 14 year old teenage daughter came to him and said, you know, I had a dream, and I think God wants me to get a tongue piercing. Like, and the parents went, okay, well, I guess we got to let you get. Because they believed in that stuff. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Isn't that convenient? [00:34:09] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. That you got to ground some of this in the word. And again, God operating directly on you that way, I think I just don't have backing for that. [00:34:20] Speaker B: So where would y'all put this concept? And I know we need to move on to the next section here of the only through the wording, because I have a few questions about that as well. But a couple. There's been some times in my life where maybe I've been facing a big decision. Job change or, you know, something like that move, whatever it is. And there's never been a time where I was, to Jack's point, where I was like, man, I just heard a whisper in my ear. Little angel on my shoulder told me to make decision. Nothing like that. But there have been, like, things that have. I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily call it a sign, but, like, things that led to like, well, that's really odd that that's something that is leaning me towards choosing a direction. Yes, take this job. No, don't take this job. Like, I don't know if that would be maybe better chalked up under the realm of providence or. But maybe, I don't know. Maybe that is kind of an example of what people mean when they say the Holy Spirit guided them, is, once again, nobody whispering, nobody spoke to. I didn't have a vision, dream, or anything like that, but, like, things happened in my life, maybe as a conscience thing, prayer, whatever, where it's like I very much feel a push towards a certain decision rather than the other decision. What realm do you guys think that would fall on? That would be from an. From an anecdotal, my own experience concept, the only thing that I could bring to the table. I've never had anything really more crazy than that, but I have certainly, again, facing a big job decision or facing something I felt myself leaning a certain way based on factors that were outside of my control, if that makes sense. [00:35:49] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. I think that's the way he operates through prayer, is by. Why pray, right? If he's not actually moving things, uh, in ways we've absolutely seen it. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I was. I think that definitely answers what I. What I was asking. I was, Jack, unless you had anything else, I was going to go ahead and move us into the second section of. [00:36:06] Speaker A: Well, the second one in acts 16 six, where Paul talks about, or Luke says they passed through phrygian and galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. I think that's an interesting thing. We don't know the mechanics of how they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit, but they were definitely turned down. They were. Something happened there. And I think that's an important thing with your question here. Like pray, act to the best of your knowledge and just pray that God would forbid, shut things down, reroute you or whatever. And I really do think he works that way in arranging things to our benefit and things like that. If you're asking him for his guidance, it might not be a nudge in one direction or the other. It might be external stuff of him just saying, yeah, we're not, we're not doing that. And as he did with Paul there. [00:36:53] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's, that's a really good point. So the second main view of this is that the Holy Spirit operates basically only through the word. And I, I'm going to ask you guys a question on that in a second. But I think for a lot of people, this is the safest thing to believe, if that makes sense. Like, it's by far the most conservative view. And so there's not going to be a lot of controversy, I think, and that's just my two cent. I think a lot of people believe it just because it's kind of a safe thing to believe is that you've got the father, you got the Son, and then you basically got the word of God that the Holy Spirit operates through. But I guess that's my question, and I know there's some more things that we've got on our outline here that I'll let one of you guys get into. But, I mean, I've sat at the feet of people who believe this. Obviously, I have been around a lot of people who, this is, their belief is that the Holy Spirit, that there is no personal indwelling, that anything that, that the Holy Spirit does is done through the word. But I guess that's my question is, like, especially for the, for you two guys who've been through Bear valley, you've interacted with more people than I have who believe this. What do they believe the Holy Spirit does through the word? Is it just like the more you read, the more spiritual you become? Is it, you know, I would imagine they don't, they still don't believe that if you read the word of God, that the Holy Spirit, like, pushes you in a certain direction? I would imagine they don't believe that either. That it's just simply a. Whatever you get out of reading the word, whatever you get out of, you know, growing closer to God in that way is how the Holy Spirit operates. But that would be my question, I guess, is what do word only is kind of the term that is given to those who believe that. What do the word only folks believe that the Holy Spirit actually does through the word? Or is it just a representative form of the word? And I don't know if I'm asking that question, right. But what, what would you guys, how would you guys answer that question as far as what they believe? [00:38:47] Speaker A: Right. And some of them might prefer the term only through the word, which is a bit of a difference, not a huge difference, but there's a spectrum here. And that's the hard part about having this discussion is, best I can tell, they all believe something slightly different. Um, and so some of them believe that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you at all. It is the only, as you read the word that the spirit has inspired. Second Peter 120 21, that you have the spirit in you through the words he has given. You have others that believe that the spirit does dwell in you, but doesn't really do anything empowering, changing anything like that, convicting, but that he might just help you in your remembrance of the words that he has given. And speaking to you through those words, again, God spoke to me. Well, it just means you read the verse and it registered with you kind of thing. And so again, it's very hard to nail down exactly what somebody believes. But as you said, if kind of the safest thing this whole discussion we've had of what the spirit does. It's very hard to draw a line and be like, he does this, he doesn't do that, because there's a subjectivity in that. He's in all of us doing different things at different times. This removes subjectivity from it at all, which I think is kind of the appeal of it. As you say, you can draw a hard line and say, he does this, he doesn't do that, the end. And so that really probably would be the appeal of this. But I don't think we need to draw a hard line if God himself didn't draw that hard line. And so others will say, the Holy Spirit really does work on you and in you, but never apart from essentially direct quotes of the Bible. And so it can be quite a spectrum. I do think some of them are very hard line. In fact, they just say the spirit does not dwell in you at all, only to the degree it's only. Well, the terms are representatively or personally. Does he personally indwell you? Or is the word in you as his representative, as kind of this badge he has put on you as kind of the spectrum you have there. [00:40:50] Speaker C: And I think that representative is how they would handle passages like acts 238 of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Like, well now we receive the word, you know, or we're in a place. [00:41:00] Speaker A: To receive the word that even that there's a spectrum. Some believe that acts 238 is strictly about the miraculous because they had just seen the miraculous happen. So now it's the promise of the miraculous. Others would say, so that would have. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Been just for the 3000 that were baptized that day and no longer applies, I'm assuming. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Yeah, or any that were baptized and the laying on the hands of the apostles, things like that. [00:41:20] Speaker B: But that was strictly in that time thing is what they say. Okay. [00:41:24] Speaker C: The problem is it continues with to the following generations. I mean it makes a specific statement about for you and your kids and the next generations down the line if it's miraculous. That's a little bit of an issue. So a couple things that I, to kind of steal me in their point here, we would jump to John 13 through 16, really 13 through 17 with the prayer. But the helper coming, he's going to convict the Orc steering syndrome. He's going to bring to mind or bring to your remembrance those things. And I do think that that is by and large how he's working for us today in the fact that no, we're not having the, there's not a miraculous level to it, but I still think he convicts the world concerning sin and judgment. I still think that he is the one that brings to mind, you know, when I'm sitting on a plane with people and I just start flowing and talking to people and I've had this happen before, I do believe that's the spirit leading me in that way. Um, you could say, well that's miraculous. I don't think it's a miraculous thing. I think it's, I've studied the word of God and he's bringing to mind, bringing to remembrance the things that I have studied in that moment. Um, but they would look at that and say that has no bearing. Once again, just like with acts that is just to the apostles, anything that said in 13 through 17, Jesus in an upper room with his apostles. Specifically speaking of the spirit that is directly to them and to nobody else, what would you say to that? [00:42:43] Speaker A: There's so much we draw from that section that literally you just kind of have to cut a line around a few verses and then the rest we apply. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments, love one another, this is how the world will know you're my christians. As you love one another, be united in all of those things, and the world hates you. [00:43:00] Speaker B: I am the vine, I'm the way. [00:43:02] Speaker A: The truth and the life. Yeah, and the funny thing is he gives in chapter 14, I'm going to give you the helper. He's going to abide with you, me and the father. The father and I are going to abide with you and the helper that we're going to send. And then he goes directly into chapter 15, I'm the vine, you are the branches. Abide in me, I and you. He just told us how he's going to abide in his people. And so if you really think that the Holy Spirit promised was only to the apostles, you can't preach, I am the vine, you or the branches anymore like that. That is a direct line as you follow the word abide through that section. That's how he's going to do it. And he doesn't say, I'm going to abide in you through the word that I give you. It's through this helper that's going to be with you. And so, yeah, you literally have to cut that part out and say, that's not for us anymore. Hey, folks, you've probably heard us talk about focus plus and the deep end. If you're wondering what that is, focus plus is our subscription service, available through Patreon. Every week. Members get all kinds of christian content for your walk, including daily devotionals, a sermon of the week, and our understudied teaching series, which Joe and I lead through obscure and less covered books of the Bible like Leviticus and revelation. We also have the deep end, of course, which is our bonus segment exclusively for think deeper listeners where you can submit your comments on an episode, and we will respond and have a bit of a Q and A each and every week. That drops every Friday. So if you're interested and want to know more, check that out. Go to patreon.com and search focus Press or go to focuspress.org plus. [00:44:31] Speaker C: That's a great answer. Great answer. I'm going through right now just looking through it. And yeah, it's very difficult to pull those things because they may look at it and say, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word. My father will love him. He will come to me, come to him and make our abode with him. They may look at that and go, well, it's all about keeping the word. And I would look at that and say, it's about him making the abode with us. If we're keeping his word, he does make his abode, which is the Holy Spirit indwelling in that moment. The other thing I wanted to get to will, I don't know if you had any thoughts on specifically that, but I want to ask another question, and maybe you can handle or, Jack, you have thoughts on this? The other thing, I was debating a gentleman one time about this, and he made the point, well, Jesus dwells in us, and it makes that very clear in various passages. Galatians 220, 1st corinthians. I think it's 1630. I had it pulled up here. Give me 1 second or second. Corinthians 13, five. You now realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you. Romans 810. If Christ is in you, though, the body is there because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. Yeah. Galatians 115 through 16. To reveal his son in me. Galatians 220. It's Christ who lives in me. So I'm curious your thoughts on that, because he was making the point, well, which is it? Does the spirit live in you, or does Christ live in you? And then there's others, that God is alive in you. So I think that's Philippians two. Something I want to say. So which member of the godhead is abiding in us? [00:45:52] Speaker B: So, Jack, you might have a better answer than me, but I'll go first here. The first thing that I would say is, that's a common Bible fallacy of scripture wars, because there's so many passages that do talk about the spirit dwelling in you. To take a passage that says, well, jesus dwells in you. So which one is it? Both of those. There are scriptures that say both of those things, so just pitting them against each other is probably not the way to go. You have to look at, okay, well, they both say that. So what's the answer here? But where I would go? And I went back and forth on this. Joe, you asked, before we started the episode, I thought about, well, maybe there's an element of. Because you don't see that as far as Jesus dwelling you near as much. Maybe that's a little bit more on the figurative side, and the spirit is a little bit more literal side. But regardless, in Romans chapter eight, you actually see both of those concepts, the spirit, the Holy Spirit, and the spirit of Christ. You see, I'm going to read that very quickly. Romans chapter eight, verse eight. But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. If indeed the spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he is not his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the spirit of him who raised you from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you. That's a very interesting three verse section as it seems to indicate that you have the Holy Spirit in some way with the spirit of Christ that is dwelling. I mean, it's very clear that he says there both of those things dwell within you. And so I guess that's where I would go. I mean, that's not a solid answer, but I don't think it's a, well, it's got to be one or the other. Either or, pick one. Romans eight would seem to indicate there's an element of both. [00:47:36] Speaker C: This is the Trinity, this is the godhead there, which is the spirit of God. The spirit of Christ is the same in my opinion. Like that, that spirit of Christ dwelling. And I, Jack, I don't know if that's how you take that, but I look at it as with Christ dwelling in, it's like, yes, it is the spirit dwelling in us and it is Christ's work in us working through the spirit dwelling in us. Therefore, Christ is in us in that moment. But Jack, what are your thoughts on that still there? [00:47:59] Speaker A: In John 14 he talks about, I'm going to leave, I'm going to go away, but I'm not going to leave you as orphans. I'm going to send this helper who's going to be with you. But even in talking about that in 1423, he says, uh, my father, we and I, we will make our abode with you. Well, so Ed says all, you know, the father and the son are going to make their abode with us. They're going to dwell in us. Well, how? In the spirit, he just explained it's in the spirit. They dwell in us, in the spirit. And so, um, you know, you can get into the semantics of, well, he said he's going to dwell on us and the father said he's going to dwell in us in the spirit. But he explained the mechanics of how this all happens here in chapter 14. And I think this is an interesting point to carry through with this is that, and I had, I was a guest on Clint Brown's podcast, Biblical Muse, to talk about this a week or two ago about the Holy Spirit. And I love this point he made about, in the Old Testament, God creates a people garden of Eden. He dwells with his people. So much of it is about God dwelling with his people. The tabernacle and the law and the cleansing and all that is so people can come near to God and he can dwell in the midst of the camp and be with his people. All of that that happens in Ezekiel. He leaves the temple, but he's, you know, he says, I'm going to come back to you. And Jesus comes and he's among the people and he's promising the apostles, I'm not going to leave you as orphans. I'm going to be with you. And this idea that, okay, the first generation of the church, he was still with them then, and he's just not anymore. He's not in us. He's not among us. No. The entire purpose of the Bible is for God to dwell among his people. And the beauty of the promise of the Holy Spirit is he. This is the closest he has ever dwelled with us since the beginning is that he is within us and within all of us. Every Christian, men, women, child, you know, men, women, young, old as Joel two talks about and Peter quotes in acts two. And this idea that, yeah, he just, he's not doing that now. He's gone away from us until he comes back and takes us to heaven. You miss the point of the Bible. And so where he talks about making his abode with the father and the son want to live with us and be among us, and they do so through the spirit is the method that they. Then I decided to do that. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really good. [00:50:01] Speaker C: That's a really good point. [00:50:02] Speaker A: So shout out to. [00:50:02] Speaker C: That brings us to the, yeah, that's fantastic. Um, and go check out that podcast, biblical muse. Um, that brings us to the personal indwelling because, guys, I'm just gonna be honest, this is where the only through the word or the word only falls apart for me as we get to the personal indwelling, because it's kind of like, by what power are you doing the good things that you do if you don't have a personal indwelling? What that means is I'm just a better person than you. And they wouldn't ever say it that way. Let's just jump to the end of, you know, when, when we're talking about what are the issues with the charismatic? Well, what are the issues with the word only? Approach this only through the word. That assumes that I'm reading the word and I'm doing it. On my own, essentially. Now, Jack, like you said, there are some that kind of believe differently within this, but a large section kind of believe. Like, I'll read the word, and then I'll just go do the word. And it's just that simple. [00:50:51] Speaker B: And who is all that up to yourself? [00:50:54] Speaker C: Who gets the glory? Who gets the glory? I get the glory. Now they can say, God gets glory. Why does God get the glory? You're the one that did all the work. You read the scriptures, and you did all the work. And there is no drive, internal drive, to do these things. So who gets the glory in that approach? And I think that's why the pharisaical end can come into this, of, like, we just add more and more and more and more and more, and let's kick everybody out of the church who's not doing exactly our way. Because it is all about rule keeping, which goes back to Judaism. It goes back to the Pharisees of it's nothing but rule keeping. We'll even add to the rules, because that's what gets us holier in this approach, is us following the rules, not us being more like Christ, being made more like Christ of the spirit, in my opinion. So I think it's fundamentally lacking the heart of Christianity when you are just saying that there is no indwelling here. [00:51:40] Speaker B: And I think that's what I was getting at with my question earlier of, like, what does it do? Like, if it only. If it's only through the word. You read the word. Well, then. Well, then, what does it do? And I think that's. That's the difference in our positions with. In the sense of the personal indwelling, is that there is more that is going on than just, well, I read it, and I try to. I do my best to apply it just by my. Pull myself up my bootstraps. I'm going to try as hard as I can. And as y'all have already spoken to, and as Jack at our home congregation has done a great job of presenting, um, material about. We don't believe that about justification. We don't believe that we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and just by trying really hard that we can, you know, somehow obtain justification. And yet a lot of people, whether it be through this viewpoint or not, want to have that same concept or that same viewpoint with sanctification. The idea of growing more and more like Christ, more and more cleanses that are more and more set apart, I should say, is that, well, I just. I just got to read and just got to do better, gotta, gotta work harder, and I, theres an element of that, but all that is with the guidance of the spirit, according to our view. [00:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, as you said, justification being made, righteous baptism, all of that is the work of Christ. Yeah theres things you have to do, but if not for what hes bringing to the table, you have no chance here. Same with your glorification of you being transformed from this into your eternal self thats going to live forever and ever. You cant do that on your own. God has to be involved in your glorification, but this idea that everything in between there, the sanctification from the day you come out of the water of baptism to the day you die, is on you. No, absolutely not. The other thing is, we used a couple of words here, supernatural and miraculous, and I think this is an error that only through the word folks make is that they conflate supernatural and miraculous. That if God is working in you, it's a miracle. No, it's supernatural. It's God working and not me. But it doesn't have to be, he's bending the laws of nature kind of thing. And so some people use supernatural and miraculous the other way. This is how I choose to use them. But if you don't believe in the work of God, why would you pray that? For help with temptation. Let's say you've just got a temptation, a sin that you keep on committing. Can you even pray to stop doing it? If you know, because God's given you the verses, you already know the verses, as Paul says in Romans seven, like, I know the right thing to do, but I'm just still not doing it. Just read your Bible more. Read that verse again. Well, yeah, then you shouldn't pray, you should just keep on reading because you're not going to get any internal help. And somebody might say, well, let's say it's a pornography addiction. Well maybe when you pray, God will make it so the wi Fi router doesn't work and you can't access those sites. Like that to me is more miraculous than him pricking your conscience to go, you know, you don't want to do that. And it's, you don't have to hear a voice in your head or anything like that. It has to be this change of heart, the heart of stone, the heart. [00:54:34] Speaker B: Of guilty feeling of like I know I should be doing this. [00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Changing your, your view of what you want and really pricking your conscience. I mean that, because that's really the question people ask, is the mechanics of this. How on earth does this work? Is it a whisper in your. Is it those things? It is the change of desires. It is the guilt. It is things like that. [00:54:52] Speaker C: And I think this where Galatians six nine comes in, like sowing under the spirit, you'll reap under the spirit. And right before that, in Galatian the end of Galatians five, with the fruit of the spirit. The more that you're doing these things, the more you want to do these things. I do think that's a work of the spirit. I think the more that you are sowing under the spirit and pursuing the things of God and pursuing, not grieving the Holy Spirit. Right. Not quenching the spirit, but you're really allowing for God to work in your life, and you are walking in the good steps that he's putting, or the good works he's put in your path. Ephesians 210, the more you do that, the more he puts good things in your path. And the way that I see this is he puts a good work in your path and you walk right around it. Nope, not going to do it. Puts another good work in your path. You walk right around it. God is leading you to do good things, and the more that you decide, I'm just not going to do that, and you blow right by it, he stops doing that. He stops giving you opportunities. And I think this is where the spirit's work is, is the more we walk in it, the more he puts in our path to do and do and do and do and do. For him, it's all a gift from him. He's the one putting it in our path. He's the one leading us and, you know, molding our hearts. The more that we do this, the more we want to do this. And I think that is all the work of the spirit. But to look at a few passages here, we go to, um, to acts 238, which is one that obviously they're going to say is. Is different. But what I really want to get at is what I already referenced in 239 for the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself. Not everybody who is far off got the miraculous hands laid on them. So if this is a miraculous holy spirit here, how do you answer that to the children who weren't present that day and to the those who are far off who were not present now, they would look at it and go, well, that's just talking about Cornelius in acts ten, and obviously they do get the miraculous. That's not what the passage says. All who are far off, not just Cornelius who is far off, or whatever it may be. So I think there's that. I think you can go to Romans eight with the dwelling in you. Romans to me is a champion one. It's maybe not the strongest, but I think in Romans 111, where it talks about, I want to come establish you and impart some spiritual gift, it does seem to be that Romans, by and large, is not talking about a miraculous spirit throughout the book, because these people have not been confirmed or they have not been blessed with that seemingly. But he talks all about the spirit living in us, the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, set you free from loss, sin and death, and will read those passages of the spirit living in us. [00:57:04] Speaker A: And I think that's one of the important things here is so many of these are about the change of you as a person, not about speaking in tongues, not about faith healing, not about miraculous stuff. It's about transformation. And if you're going to say that that all stopped, you're saying they had an unfair advantage in the battle against sin. That boy, they got God with them to help them stop sinning, and you and I don't. And either that is going to depress you and go, wow, we've got it on ten times harder difficulty, or you're going to be awful proud of yourself thinking, man, I'm right up there. I'm ahead of Paul because he had the spirit to help him stop sinning, and I'm doing it on my own. [00:57:40] Speaker C: That's not good. [00:57:41] Speaker B: It literally is the idea of, like, parents, that for the oldest couple, kids, get paid for a cardinal, put them through college, set them up really well, and for the youngest kids, like, good luck, buddy. Sorry, you gotta figure it out yourself. That would be a very depressing thing. [00:57:56] Speaker C: What they would say is, well, we have the word and that's all we need. Like, but they had a miraculous leading, and all we get, and that sounds horrible, but it's like, you know, all we get is you read the words and go do it. And they had the actual leading of the spirit helping them do these things. So we don't have any of that help. Like, I think, why can't we have both? Why can't we have the word? Which obviously is incredible. It is the perfect, seemingly in one corinthians 13, like, okay, we do have that, but why do we have to have one or the other where we can't also have the spirit working through us? Convicting us still the same way, convicting certain sin and judgment and leading our consciences more toward God, because once again, it creates a bunch of pharisees who go, look at me, I'm incredible. I don't see how it couldn't, to be honest, I don't see how the, the end of a non indwelling would lead toward you glorifying God, all the more because at the end of the day, you've been given the word just go do it. And I look at it and I go, okay, well, so an atheist could technically do the same, I suppose, of like, will they read the word? Well, yeah, as long as he goes and does it. Like, I get that he has the ability to go do it. We have the ability to go do the word or not. What is it that pricks our heart that causes us to do it? We're not Calvinists. We don't believe God's chosen certain people. But I do think that the atheist turns that off. I think for christians, we are the ones that feel that conscience being pricked and we turn toward it. But where's the conscience prick come from? It's not just for me being a good person. I think that is the spirit that is pricking our conscience and he pricks theirs as well. And they turn away from God and we've turned toward God, but the spirit is still working in that. [00:59:24] Speaker B: So I've got one other thing I want to say. We made it pretty clear the side that we stand on of we believe that the Holy Spirit does indwell us personally. And I, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of people, again, would disagree with us in the church. A lot of people would say, hey, it's only through the word. And I think the last thing I wanted to say is just when you are entering this discussion from whatever side that you're coming on, please be very wary of the proof text strategy that we've railed on before of. Well, let me just put up a statement backed by a verse in parentheses with no context to what that verse is talking about, with no, no, no, greater, again, just greater context of what's going on in that passage. Just, well, this, you know, this is what I believe and I know that. And you know, and I know that it's true and that, you know, that it should or you should know that it's true because of this scripture reference I'm just going to throw on the end. People on both sides do that. But, and I just think that that's a very that's not a intellectually honest way to look at this issue is like, well, obvious, obviously, right here because of this verse right here. Nothing, you know, get scripture to back up your position, as we've done with this episode. But Mandy, on a, on an issue as complex as the holy spirit, one slide with a bunch of different statements backed up by scriptures from 20 or 30 different books of the Bible is not very, is not. What's the right word? Not an adequate amount of evidence for, for a position. And so I would just caution. [01:00:48] Speaker C: Bible study. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's terrible. Bible study. [01:00:51] Speaker C: The other thing I'll say is when you're entering this, please try not to swing the pendulum to the other side. So you're saying that you believe in miracle? No, that's not what. [01:00:58] Speaker B: We're all man. Yeah. You don't want to or you're. [01:01:00] Speaker C: So you're calvinist? No, not calvinist. Listen to the other side. Right. Listen to. And so we can kind of like react. We have a very reactionary view of this, of like. Well, I don't want to be that. Okay. I know what you don't want to be, but what, what is it? Right? [01:01:14] Speaker A: You're not something I ran into. Oh, well, you believe that, that, you know, God leads the christian through the conscience or through whatever. So you're just like a calvinist. Like why? I guess. But you still sin. God doesn't have, you know. Yeah. The claim is not that. God has taken me over like a robot. I mean, like, what do you think I'm claiming here? And so don't do that stuff either. [01:01:36] Speaker C: So we want to get into, in the deep end. We're going to push this to the deep end. Is this a fellowship issue? Is this something that we should be cutting ties on? And I think there's a, I think that's going to be very good discussion. When does it become a fellowship issue? Is there a time where it becomes a fellowship issue? We are talking about the Godhead. Seems like a fairly serious problem to get this messed up. But at the same time, the godhead is very difficult to understand. So where do we draw lines on that? Where, where do we draw lines of fellowship? Do we kick people out who believe certain things? We want to dig into that more in the deep end just due to time. We're not going to get into that on this one. But we would love for you to, if you have not joined Focus Plus. Focusplus.com or focus. Sorry. Focuspress.org back Slash plus. Correct. And make sure to join us there. We'd love for your comments, and obviously, we'll read them on air and work through it in the deep end, but we're going to push this discussion there. Fellas, anything else? [01:02:25] Speaker A: Yes, will, don't you have something? [01:02:28] Speaker B: Yes, I'll take it away. So. [01:02:29] Speaker C: That's right. [01:02:29] Speaker B: We are. We're going to have to get better at the timing thing. We went the whole, whole hour and a few minutes over, but we're going to try something out moving forward. When we first started think deeper. We had a segment at the end, a specific, specific segment that we called Sermon sum up, where we were just kind of going around. We were all in ministry jobs at that point, all in separate ministry jobs. So we kind of talk about what we're studying. We're not gonna do that exact same thing. What we're gonna do, we're calling it a rebranding of think fast, where at the end of every episode, five minutes, ten minutes thing on how long Joe goes, um, we're just going to bring. Bring some topic of discussion that is not related to the episode and get everybody's take on it. So when, when we envision this, maybe there's a big cultural thing that's going on that we don't want to really dedicate a full episode to, but we want to talk about it here. Um, maybe it's a scriptural thing, like a Bible question. Maybe it's just could literally be anything at all. And so we are rolling this out for the first time, and so we'll see how it goes. It's my, my job this week to bring that up. And I was looking. There's not a lot going on culturally wise. I mean, I think there's a lot going on that's interesting, but for the sake of this podcast, nothing. So I'm going to ask. And they wanted me to surprise them. So, you guys, that's y'all's mistake here. Romans five. I asked this to you guys a few weeks ago. I'm going to ask it here on the podcast is a very tough section. This is a very tough section of scripture. We know romans 512 very well. Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, thus death spread to all men, because all sin. We got that. We know that pretty easy. The next couple verses are very difficult to interpret and very difficult to come away with a. Well, he's clearly talking about this. And so I'm going to. I'm going to ask you guys, I'm going to read it very quickly and then we won't spend a ton of time here. But it's a very interesting Bible question. So, romans 513, immediately after the verse I just read. For until the law, sin was in the world. But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned, according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of him, who is to come. So I love romans five. There's. There's a lot. There's so much. So many good things to peel out of there. But, man, twelve and 13. Or, I'm sorry, 13 and 14. There are very, very difficult to, again, just come away with a very clear description of what he's talking about. So, guys, what is y'all's interpretation? There's two things that kind of catch my eye with that. The first is in verse 13. So for until the law, sin was in the world. But sin is not imputed when there is no law. So what is he talking about there? And then secondly, the idea in verse 14 of death reigning from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned, according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. So what is that talking about? The idea that you can sin according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, or you can sin and it not be like the transgression. Transgression of Adam, if that makes sense. So if you're listening, following along, it's romans 513 and 14. Guys, very quickly, what are y'all's thoughts on that? [01:05:19] Speaker C: Very quickly, as he gives us one of the hardest passages in the Bible to understand. So appreciate that one, my understanding of it. You know, the law of sins in the world. There is law in the garden. That's where it comes in. But even without the law of Moses being given, there are still sins in the world. When it talks about sin is not imputed where there is no law. It is talking about if something is done out of ignorance at the time, you're not punishing somebody for doing it. Out of ignorance is seemingly what it is referring to. But that doesn't mean that there weren't still sins. We see Cain and Abel where there is clear sin that's taking place. Clear things that are like grievances against God. But the question is, and we know that Christ's sacrifice goes all the way back to Adam and all the way forward as well. His sacrifices is going back to the sins of Adam and everybody through that. But the law of Moses had not been given. So all of the laws that were being broken before the law of God, you're not breaking them because it's not technically a law, even though it is sin, even though it is against God. God didn't just come up with all of these sins in Exodus 20 and following, but at the same time they didn't have those laws. So the things that weren't taking place now, we still see a system of sacrifices, we still see a. Obviously murder is still wrong, but they also were nothing. I don't know if they were charged to the same account as they were after. [01:06:36] Speaker B: I was going to say that's. I don't know if I should have looked it up before, if it's the same greek word as what's used all throughout chapter four, but it's the idea of charging to their account accounted imputed. That's the word that's used in acts four. And so. [01:06:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:06:50] Speaker B: That question of like, well, is sin not charged to their account then? If there's no. It's an interesting question, Jack. [01:06:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, Sodom and Gomorrah were flattened to the ground in that time period. And so there is some accountability. I'm with Joe on the line of thinking that Moses is the key here. This is the only time in the first half of romans that he's brought up in these discussions where he's talking about it from Adam, and that these had not sinned in the likeness of Adam, but the death still reigned because of what Adam brought in and people kept sinning even though it had not been the. Yeah. The. The legal code setting out what was and what was not had not been fully developed. However. Yeah. I mean, natural law, he appeals to that in Romans two of those, you know, who do things naturally, kind of. Of your conscience. And so. Yeah, I mean, murder, obviously, Lamech, before the flood, knew it was wrong, did it anyway, coming off the ark. God says, by man whose blood is shed. And so you have things like that. You've got what's right and wrong. You've got people clearly understanding that. Like I said, Sodom and Gomorrah and the accountability there. And so I think it is. There were consequences. Yes. But as far as like, the clarity of right and wrong. Yeah, I don't have a very clear answer. [01:08:04] Speaker B: It's really tough. [01:08:04] Speaker C: Here's the other thing. You go back to Romans four and there's two things I'll make and then we'll wrap up. He talks about his right or his faith being credited as righteousness. That is a banking term, right? We've heard before. So is imputed. That's actually financial. If you go the term, there is to charge with financial obligation to charge on the account of someone. [01:08:22] Speaker B: So I think by my count that word is used. 345678, 910. At least ten times in chapter four, it's used a ton. [01:08:31] Speaker C: It's used a bunch of chapter four. And he says verse 15 of four for the law brings about wrath. But where there is no law, there also is no violation. So when God says this is wrong, now he can have wrath on those people. Even though it was wrong before, they may not have known that it was fully wrong because the law was not set in place. So again, it's kind of like if I lie, but I don't know that it's a sin, I still lied. It's still a sin. It doesn't make it not a sin. It just means I didn't have any knowledge of that being a sin. So the wrath is going to be different than the person who says lying is wrong, and I go and lie anyway. So God's wrath is still going to be on those people. And he shows up, Sodom and Gomorrah shows up with Cain, obviously curses Cain. So when God has a hand in it, we still see that they ought to know better and it's going against their conscience. This gets into romans nine with the conscience issues and why the gentiles some will be saved apart from the law because of conscience, because they follow their conscience. So they're breaking the law of conscience back then. That's where there's going to be sin coming in. So yeah, it's, it's a difficult discussion, but I appreciate you guys being about me just throwing, thanks for throwing that one on us. [01:09:33] Speaker B: We are going to do something like that every single week. Jack is in charge of next week. So again, there's something major that happens that he wants our take on. He can bring up that maybe another scriptural question, literally whatever he wants. But guys, anything else before we wrap up this week, as always, we'd love to hear your comments. Goes without saying that if you're, if you're, especially if you're a deep thinker, subscriber to focus plus leave your comments as we will have another segment and get into all that stuff that Joe mentioned there at the end. But even if you're not, leave us a comment on the Facebook Facebook group or in some of the quote images that we post. We'd love to get everybody's thoughts and just kind of see see where everybody is on this one. It's a very interesting one to me as far as the spectrum of where people land on this issue. So appreciate Joe and Jack for putting together the outline on this one. If there's nothing else, we will wrap up and we will talk to you guys next week.