Has Persecution Reached America?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome into the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. I'm your co host Joe Wilkie, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Harab. And today we're discussing a news story that we hope we're not too late on. We think it's still kind of making the rounds, especially with some news that recently came out about the Bulls firing their GM and vice president. And that is the story of Jaden Ivey, a Bulls player who was removed from the team after he had anti gay quote unquote comments that he made on an Instagram live, I believe. And so we're going to discuss that. We're going to discuss persecution as he's facing persecution. He gets kicked off the team and given the rest of his salary and is out of league effectively as it stands right now. And so we're yet to see that's kind of a developing story to see where it goes. But we're discussing persecution, how Christians should respond to persecution, how much we should stand up to persecution and really break into something that may be coming down the pike a lot more. We're seeing some things up in Canada. We're seeing it around the world. And so this may be a topic that you might think, well, you know, it's, it's persecution. We kind of know we're supposed to expect it and then move on. We think there's some interesting angles here. So Jack, get us into it. Maybe give us a little more background on that story specifically and what's, what's brought it up today for us. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah, let me see with the screen. Share if I can get this up here, it's always giving me a little bit of trouble. Here we have the original tweet. This is by John Root. Chicago Bulls guard Jaden Ivey rebuked the NBA for celebrating Pride Month on Instagram Live. He said, they say the NBA says come join us for Pride Month to celebrate unrighteousness. So that was the kind of, the first thing that happened here was the commentary of saying, hey, they, they push Pride Month and that's unrighteousness. That's kind of it. And he's been talking about his faith a little bit some. He's talked about basically the bad person that he was, the bad husband that he wanted to understand. [00:01:58] Speaker C: He's newly converted. Right. [00:02:01] Speaker A: He's very zealous and I don't know what all he believes and you know, I'm sure there'd probably be things to disagree on, but you can see the zeal here and sometimes you see that in new converts. And in fact the most recent thing was he was out like street preaching, he's lost his job as a basketball player and he was just out there on the streets of Chicago talking to people about Jesus, which is cool to see. But he had this where he streamed himself giving his thoughts on the NBA's participation and endorsement of Pride Month and that it was unrighteousness. And next thing you know he's out of a job. And one of the reports from one of the top NBA reporters said that, yeah, it was related to these comments that he made, said Sham Sharania said after his recent anti LGBTQ comments amid several rants on religion and other topics and he was released for conduct detrimental to the team. And so [00:02:54] Speaker C: that's where it started. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Following that, I think there was some interesting. There was another NBA player that wore in his post game press conference, a Dallas Mavericks player or something about faith over fear or something like that on his shirt and kind of skirted around it and said, you know, like, I'm not going to comment on all the other stuff, but yeah, faith is the most important. And then a New England Patriots running back or player, Travion Henderson, thank you. Travion Henderson just tweeted the story about Ivy with blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. For there's the kingdom of heaven, of course, Matthew 5:10, which we'll get into a little bit later. But then something interesting followed that which was his coach was asked about Travion Henderson's comments and he said, I want them to be able to express what they believe, but I also want to make sure that they're educated. We want to be inclusive. You kind of think, educate about what? What does he need to learn that, you know, that the Bible that the guy saying that that's unrighteousness is. I always think that's funny when people talk about, oh, back in the day, we just, we just didn't know, like, didn't know what? Like, what are we supposed to learn here? He didn't say, you know, God hates these people and they we should stone them all. And there's none of those things. It was, this is unrighteousness. And now you've got a coach saying, well, we need these guys to be educated about inclusiveness. So that's kind of the lay of the land of it all that's always there. Yeah, [00:04:19] Speaker C: I was just gonna say this is a very interesting story. Is just taking my introductory thoughts into this. Yeah, I saw the news about it, watched kind of His. His live stream. And obviously there's been a lot of reaction to it. I was thinking we haven't really had anything like this from a Christianity persecution standpoint in a while, in the. At least in the sports world specifically, is kind of what I'm referring to here. You had some stuff during the COVID 2020, George Floyd stuff where Jonathan Isaac, where everybody else was kneeling for the national anthem, and Jonathan Isaac was an NBA player who did not. Was kind of a bit of a, you know, pariah for that. He's still in the league. He's a great player. Obviously you guys will remember this, the Tebow thing, decade ago or so. A lot of people think he was kind of blackballed from the league due to his very outspoken faith. And so, yeah, we want to use this story kind of as a springboard into this persecution discussion. Discussion that we haven't really had on. Think deeper in either ever or in a very long time. And so we want to answer some. Some important questions. We're not going to zero in necessarily on just this particular story, but we do, once again, can we kind of view this, this Jaden Ivey story, since it has captivated the sports world as. Yeah, the springboard for the episode. A lot of questions surrounding it. A lot of questions that we want to dive into. Joe, sorry to cut you off. Look like you had some thoughts as we kind of get into it. [00:05:44] Speaker B: No, you're good. I was just going to piggyback on what Jack said, which is it feels like the cry of every person that is too scared, you know, to get up and actually support them. They're just not educated. Not educated? Like they rent. I saw that from a number of athletes. I just hope he gets the education, you know, I hope he learns, and I hope he just comes to understand how hurtful this is. Things like that. [00:06:05] Speaker C: I hope they eventually come over to my side. It's kind of. What? [00:06:08] Speaker A: Well, that. And learn to shut his mouth. Learn that it's not okay. Hold Christian belief. [00:06:12] Speaker C: I think Travion Henderson did come out and apologize. I think I read that somewhere. Like he posted some kind of apology tweet. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Man, that's a controversy. Unless you know you're. You're going to say something you don't need to apologize for. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, because that's the worst thing you can do is now they know you're against them. You know, you're on the side of Jaden Ivey, but now you kind of apologize. They don't care about your apology. They're not Going to let you back in the club because you apologize like you're out. Just accept the fact that you are on the outside. And that is kind of the basis of persecution to some degree, being on the outs. Now, is that a shocker in the NBA? Is that a shocker in the NFL that you'd be on the outs the same as Hollywood? Is it a shocker that if you stand up for Christian beliefs in Hollywood, you might be blackballed? No, it's not a shocker. Look at NBA and how much that they support China when China's got, like, slavery going on actively and China's got tons of persecution and everything happening. And yet NBA is mum on that. They're not going to say anything about that. But the moment you speak up on something like this, you're off the team and basically kicked out of the league. Like, we know the NBA is godless. And so there are certain places that I think you can expect persecution. But this is kind of happening, as I said reference with Canada, they got this. I think it's C9 bill, C9 or something like that. And this is the hate crime. I wrote it down. What's it called? The Combating Hate act, where they're going to get to the point that basically quoting Bible verses is going to be seen as a hate crime and could send you to prison up in Canada if this passes. It's already passed the House of Commons. I don't know how Canada's whole system works, but I know it's close to passing. And if it does, it's going to make preaching the Bible very, very difficult. And so for our Canadian listeners, we feel for you. If we have any Canadian listeners, we feel for you because persecution is at our back door. We like to think that it's going away in America. I do think that we have the majority in America still as Christians, but it's more of a silent majority. The big places like the NBA, NFL, Hollywood, things like that are making persecution seem much more likely in our culture. And again, the Lebanese Christians, the Nigerian Christians, the crises that are going on over there, persecution is alive and well in the world. Yes. There are places like Poland saying Christ is king. Persecution is still taking place all over the world. And I think it might be headed here. [00:08:25] Speaker C: Well, I think one of the things that is hopefully going to be helpful for this episode for our listeners is how does this apply to the American? Because obviously we know that there's persecution overseas and we need to obviously always keep that in prayer for those people that are dealing with that. But let's face it, you know, all three of us live in Middle Tennessee. We're in the Bible Belt. That type of persecution, Lord willing, we're not going to see. And so what type, like, I guess that's what I really hope the listener is going to draw away once this episode or take away once this episode is over, is from an application standpoint, what kind of persecution should we expect in the United States of America? The Jaden Ivey thing, you know, obviously I don't think any of our listeners are major NBA players or major, major pro athletes or anything like that. So what is the average, you know, suburban citizen? What kind of persecution are we going to face? And kind of, what should we expect? Jack? I'll let you kind of get us into that next. But yeah, it's just going to take. It's going to take different forms. It's going to take. Persecution is going to take on different forms. It's going to take on kind of like a group. Think of whether it be the transgenderism issue, which I think is actually now kind of coming somewhat back around to a little bit of the common sense side, not fully obviously, but the transgender stuff or obviously the homosexual agenda or, you know, things like that, where you're gonna kind of get either bullied or really heavily pressured within your job to side with a certain agenda, an agenda that is. That is. That is anti God. And so again, it's not necessarily gonna be you being thrown into prison. It's not necessarily going to be some of these things that once again, overseas people are facing. But what kind of persecution are we going to need to be ready and prepared to face? I think is an interesting question. So, Jack, I think. I don't know if you want to get us and get us into that next section there. [00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah. When I was ministering in the Dallas area, I had a couple that were. Both worked in the school system, and they would work, like, asking me, okay, we've got this regulation. That little boy comes in and wants to. He says he's Sally now and we've got to call him she and her. And that whatever, we've just got to allow it and go along with it. And like, Memo went out to everybody corporately, like, hey, you know, this is what it's going to be. And that's really hard to do. And so that question of, like, well, how is it coming here? What are we going to face? And people say, oh, that's not persecution. No, you don't have to be stoned to death. I mean, you look at the end of Hebrews 10, and it gives a list of things that they've been through, things they had endured and having property taken from them and things like that. Yeah, there are more extreme forms of persecution, but your livelihood being placed on the line, that's a version of it, you know, of like, you're not allowed to work here unless you bend the knee. And so as far as it coming to America, I would say that in some ways it's already here. And so how much can we expect it in America? And as you said, we're insulated. You know, Joe is self employed. Well, you work at a company that is obviously well known for being very open to. [00:11:31] Speaker C: Very faith based. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Right, Very faith based. And then obviously I work in the ministry here at Focus Press, and so we don't have to deal with this to the degree that some of you guys listening in your car right now are having to dodge these landmines. But I think a lot of you would say, yeah, no, there's a real thing. There's. There's real pressure. There's real pressure to conform. There's. There's things we have to kind of step around. And so I don't think this is a far off thing because there's the people that always just roll their eyes like, oh, are we really persecuted? You know, they're throwing you to the lions. Like, man, it doesn't have to be that. If you're thinking of like, all right, I can keep this job, pay my mortgage and feed my family, or I [00:12:11] Speaker C: can say the truth employment line. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Right, right. That little boy is not a girl and speak the truth on that or whatever it may be, you know of. No, actually, I'm not gonna show up to support the pride or whatever that, like the Jaden Ivy thing here. These are real things people have to deal with, and it's not something to hand wave away. So I would say that, yeah, in some ways it's already here. You'd put the question on here. Should you pursue it as far as being blunt, forcing conversations? Because on the one hand, we should be evangelistic, we should be open with our faith. On the other, should we just run right into step on the landmine on purpose kind of thing? And I think about, like, YouTube was incredibly sensor heavy there during, especially the COVID years, the early Biden years, whatever. And I mean, just saying certain words, boom, your video's taken down, your channel might be nuked or whatever. And so you would get real creative about how to not say you Know the needle they stick in your arm, you know, like that kind of thing. Well, I don't think it would have been wise to just go in and say, I'm just going to say it like then nobody's going to hear it. So I think there's a why is a serpent innocent as doves thing, as Jesus said in Matthew 10. [00:13:24] Speaker C: Sure. [00:13:25] Speaker A: So to your question though, what do you guys think about that? Like how much should we wade into this and how much should we. I don't know. [00:13:35] Speaker C: Yeah, essentially, should we actively seek it out? Yeah, pursue it, I think is the word that I use. Yeah, I mean, because you think about. So second Timothy 3, verse 12 obviously is a verse that comes up in these persecution discussions. Not to proof text it because I hate when people do that. But you know, it's the. Yes, and all who desire to live in godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. And so there's that argument that could be made that if you are not actively being persecuted that obviously you just, you just reverse engineer. Right. Well then you must not be, you know, living godly in Christ Jesus. And so there's that, I don't know, maybe temptation for people or guilt feeling almost of like, oh, I'm not being persecuted. Well man, what can I say? Or what can I do to maybe inflict some persecution on myself? And I don't think a lot of people have that mindset. But again, just a strict reading of the verse could lead people to that conclusion. And so yeah, should you actively seek out persecution? And when those examples that I put on there most people's work environment, Joe, maybe, you know. Well, I guess it could come up in your work environment as well of like an opportunity for a conversation to take place about XYZ societal issue or XYZ societal issue that touches faith. Believe it or not, at work at Chick Fil A we've actually had quite a bit of those. Not everybody who works at Chick Fil A is a God fearing Christian. And so there have been those conversations that have come up about abortion or you know, obviously when Charlie Kirk was killed there was, you know, that dominated the conversation for a long time. And, and so there are those opportunities, there's those kind of doors that are open. And I guess the way that I wanted to ask this question is like should you just barge through that door full speed ahead? Like I don't care, you know, come what may, I'm going to say this. I don't always think that you should would be my answer. I don't think you should actively seek it out. I think you should be actively seeking out ways to share your faith, not necessarily actively seeking out ways to be persecuted. And that might seem like splitting hairs, but I think there you see this sometimes with, you know, sports commentators or news commentators. They'll say things a certain way because they know it's going to be very hot, take ish. And they know there's going to be a lot of engagement that's going to come from it. I'm going to say this and it's like, hey, you didn't really have to say it that way, but you did so that you'd get the engagement. So you get the click so that you'd get the, the people to go, oh my goodness, can you believe that? That so and so said X, Y or Z. So that's why they say rage baiting. Rage baiting, yes. As opposed to just. Here's kind of the point I'm trying to get at. I think that it was kind of the analogy that I would make for something like this is you can make the same point two different ways. You can, you know, take an opportunity in a conversation and share your thoughts on abortion or whatever it is, or you can be Mr. You know, blind. So I don't care what people think this is, you know, and again, do the rage baiting thing in everyday conversation. The latter I would advise against. To me that that would be more of actively seeking out persecution. I just want, I want the arrows and stones to be thrown my way versus no, I want to look for an opportunity to share what I think, to share my faith and to stand for what I believe in. But I'm not actively seeking out again, people to people to be upset with what I say. Does that make sense? Joe, I'm curious your thoughts on this question. That's kind of the way that I see it. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Well, you mentioned Charlie Kirk and I think he's the perfect example of this. First off, obviously he was persecuted, facing death because of his beliefs. The way he engaged people was very good though, because you see guys like Steven Crowder or whatever that are just, they're shock jocks. They're gonna go out there, they're gonna be bump ass, change my mind guy. He's a change my mind Alex Stein is just a troll, Internet troll that goes out and trolls the left and whatnot. And you look at the abrasiveness of that and versus somebody like Charlie Kirk who's just talking with you, and how many people did Charlie get to evangelize? How many People, did he push the gospel? And again, yes, we would disagree on things. He was not a New Testament Christian, the way I see it. On the other hand, he's pushing Christ and talking about Christ to atheists and to people that, you know, Muslims and people like that, and saying, hey, Jesus is where it's found. That's praise be to God. That's always a good thing when somebody is pointing people to Christ. And so, you know, in so doing that, how did he get there? Because he built equity with people, because he was willing to take the arrows, because he was willing to have a honest conversation. I think of the same thing in my therapy. I don't immediately, I'll let people know that I'm Christian. I work with all sorts of people. I've worked with militant atheists. I've worked with, you know, lgbtq. I've worked with all sorts of people. My Christianity comes up a lot more not early on, it comes up later. And this is where I get to, I build equity with people and they get to the point where they know I'm not just trying to convert you. That's not really my job. And it's actually illegal to do it in my job. But I also will bring it into it of like, it's tough to get out of addiction without having unconditional love. Well, that sparks us into a conversation of God. And I've had great conversations about God and about Jesus with people that were very far from that different religion, atheist, whatever it is. I had to build equity. So, Jack, going back to the verse you quoted, why is the serpent innocent as doves? There's absolutely an element of this, I think when it comes to persecution of like, you need to build equity to some degree with people where they will listen to you. If you're not always jumping in with the shock jock. Very abrasive, you know, very much rage baiting type thing. Like, people will tune that out at some point and you've lost all, you know, all ability to then evangelize once they have tuned you out. [00:18:51] Speaker C: This is a point that I put on the outline about the need to build equity with people. Because another question about, like, should you always speak your faith, speak about your faith, or is there a time and a place to go back to the Jaden Ivy situation, for instance. And I don't, we don't, you know, necessarily want to parse out every single thing about that specific situation. I, of course, would agree with, with his position and what he said. Here's the problem. Jaden Ivey had Not built up. From what I understand, I don't know the guy personally, but from the sources, from everything I'm reading, he had not built up a lot of equity within his workplace. So first of all, he was a fifth round, he was a fifth overall pick. And his, the team, that which is a high draft pick in the NBA and his, the team that drafted him basically let him walk like you're not valuable enough for us to keep you on. He was on another team on the Bulls, and he had only seven games left on his contract for this year. And then he was going to be cut at the end of the year. He hadn't built up a lot of equity. Some sources basically said, hey, even before, of course, before all this went out, that he wasn't super well liked in the locker room, that he was kind of difficult to get along with. And there is an element, some of that might be just because he's vocal about his faith. And that's part of the persecution. I get all that. My point is he had not built up a lot of equity. And again, I don't want people to think, oh, so you're saying you've got to just put in your 20 years of faithful working in a company before you can ever share your faith. That's not what I'm saying at all. But Joe, your point about in your therapy work on the first session, you're not coming out necessarily and boldly professing your faith. There is a need to build equity with people. If I was at a job and I was difficult to get along with and was kind of a headache for bosses and was just very abrasive to people, they're not going to listen to me quite as well or quite as much when I share my faith or when I take a stand on again, xyz, cultural issue, abortion, gay rights, whatever it is. That is where being somebody who. Yeah, I mean, we keep using the phrase, but you just, you just built equity to the point where people respect your opinion. They want to hear. Not just respect it, they want to hear it. That's one of the things at Chick Fil A very rarely, if a conversation like this comes up, will I just volunteer to share my opinion right away. I think it's because people that do that kind of annoy me. Like, I didn't ask for your opinion. So I'm not. But so out. But I'll wait. And there are people that ask, well, what do you think? You want to get to that point where people respect and value your opinion enough to know where they want to know what you think, what you thought about the Charlie Kirk incident or about abortion or whatever it is. And so that's kind of what I was getting at with that point on the outline about building equity with people. Get them to the point where they really want to know what you think, where they want to hear from you, because you're a great guy, you're great. Or girl, you're a great family person. You've shown yourself to be a reputable human being in other aspects. So that's kind of my thoughts on that. Jack, I know we've kind of dominated the conversation there for a bit. What are some of your thoughts on that? [00:21:42] Speaker A: Hey, folks, I wanted to tell you about our new Christian book combo. It's two books [email protected] the first is Sunday School Catch Up. It's 150 Bible basics for those that maybe didn't grow up in the church or feel like they're lacking in the fundamentals of the Bible. And then starting line by Dr. Brad Harrop and of course by Will on that one as well, on the basics of the Christian life, of what it means to be a Christian, to be part of the church, why the church does what it does, some doctrinal basics and things like that. And so with those two books, we've got them at a discount on our site when you buy them together. A great starter pack for anyone who wants to know more about the Christian faith. So check that out [email protected] yeah, you're bringing up things remind me of First Peter 2 and 3. Especially wanted to read 2:12, where he says, keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may, because of your good deeds as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation. Then he goes on similar themes into chapter three of Be a Good Guy, Keep a good conscience, do the right things. Because if they're gonna hate you, let it be for Christ and not for you. Not because you're obnoxious, not because you don't do a good job, not because it's like you're the employee that everyone rolls their eyes like, oh, that guy, we got to clean up after him. He doesn't do a good job, you know, whatever the case may be, or. Or he's just always coming in, slamming people, you know, for their beliefs or whatever it is. As you say, kind of choose your moments. The other angle of this, though, I want to look at it from the other side is kind of the question of, should we be persecuted more than we are? And I think you can make it well. So let's say they. They come into the workplace and say, all right, everyone has to add pronouns to your email. Which I know this is more of a, you know, 2021 kind of problem that. That stuff, fortunately, thankfully, mercifully, has died down a little bit. But let's say they come in and do that. No, you don't do it. And. And because the other thing that's crazy about this is, like, if everybody that had a problem with it said no, it would stop. I mean, like, the. These. Most of these, they're not gonna fire everybody. They're not gonna fire half the people or whatever. Just say, I'm not gonna do it. Well, the problem is it takes one person being courageous, and a lot of times other people will leave that guy out to dry. That person, the man or woman that stands up and says, no, I'm not doing that. Other people will go, oh, well, I'll let him take that one for the team and keep my mouth shut. No. And I think we need to be telling Christians. And again, this is so easy for us to say, but, Joe, as you said to your profession, there are things, laws, and, you know, certain states, obviously the state of Colorado, where you got your licensure originally, that your. The Supreme Court just had to shut them down for saying, no, somebody can talk to a trans person about not being trans anymore. Like, that was illegal. You could have gotten in big trouble, lost everything for having that conversation in the state of Colorado. So there is some in what you're doing. But this idea of our faith needs to be bold. Remember that thing people used to say of like, if you were on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you? Things like this of like, well, people at least know you are a Christian, as, you know, kind of that. Two sides of it. No, you're not going in and just hammering everybody every single day about everything. On the other hand, when push comes to shove, you kind of. They know how you're gonna act. They know what you're. Where you stand on things, I guess, is a way of saying it. And the more godless our world gets, the more of a collision course that becomes. That's okay, you know, we can't run from the collisions forever. And a lot of times, the earlier you take a stand, the easier it is to roll it back. But the farther you let it go, I mean, you could see, look at some of the Islam and Hindu stuff that's coming in and Texas and Michigan and all that. Like, this could get really ugly in a hurry if there are not more stands taken soon. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Right, right. So I got a question that I think this is a. I want to be very careful in how I ask this because I'm not saying that the Bible is not obviously the inspired word of God that we go off of it. But I'm also curious how much that was intended to be intended for the people at the time versus is this something that we should and continue to expect as we go forward? And my framing of this question, I suppose, is rooted in like, whether you look at Constantine turning Rome into a Christian empire was a good or a bad thing. When the persecution stopped and when that became a, you know, it became the. The religion of the land, you know, Christianity, a lot of people look at it and go as false. It was not a legitimate religion. Obviously it pushed more toward, like Catholic Roman Catholicism. On the other hand, persecution stopped. Some people think that's when the church got weakest because again, you know, Catholicism took over. Things like that. As you're looking at the three hundreds, the reason why that's relevant and why I'm bringing it up is like this kind of sparks us into a Christian nationalism conversation. Should we expect that Christian businesses will be get Christian or Christian couples will have Christian families, which will create Christian communities, which will create Christian businesses, which helps create Christian society, which. Then you're kind of like you're cocooned from persecution because you are winning over the hearts and minds of people. And when everybody's Christian, nobody's there to persecute you, which seems to be a really good goal, is to get everybody in society to be Christian, is to have Christian businesses and to have, you know, be great. If the NBA was Christian, I think there's no Christian here, no Christian listening that I think would disagree with that. It'd be fantastic if the NBA was a Christian organization where there's no persecution. Well, this clashes with the idea that as Christians, we're supposed to be persecuted, that we are, you know, perpetually under this man. You're going to be persecuted for your faith. Like, I would love to live in a world where that really wasn't the case because it was being Christianized. So to me, it seems like. I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong or that we can't expect some level of persecution, but for the people that are like more persecution, the better, that's when the church grows. I don't think the church is growing in leaps and bounds over in Iran. I just don't think it is. So I think that's false, that the idea that the more persecuted you are, the more church grows. But where does this leave us? I mean, do you think that this is. Am I off on that in saying, like, I think this is where you can make a strong case for Christian nationalism and say we can do away with persecution? Theoretically, if all of the businesses and all of the, you know, institutions and society were Christian. And is that a good thing? I mean, I think all of us would agree it's a good thing, all three of us. But do you see kind of the dilemma of saying we're all going to be persecuted versus maybe that's something we can work out of? Is that something we should be going for, or is that against Scripture? [00:28:18] Speaker A: So the question is, were we meant to be in the same place they were in the first century forever? Correct. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Correct. That's. That's the perfect framing of the question. Yes. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm gonna say no. I think it is good that we developed out of that. And honestly, to kind of twist this whole episode on its head. I've written on this before. I wouldn't call what we're undergoing persecution. I think what they had from Jerusalem, you know, the Pharisees sending people out after him from Rome early on from some of those, and what's going on in China, and when missionary people go out to new lands, the Jim Elliot getting shot at by the tribes, that's persecution. I think when you've gone and you've had a nation that has known Christ and Christianity has been there and it's been established there, and it backslides. I think it's discipline. I think everybody, every nation in the west is undergoing God's discipline. Islam is God's discipline on wayward Christians and just atheism, all of these things. We're seeing the LGBT stuff. [00:29:18] Speaker C: This is. [00:29:19] Speaker A: And not that God is sending it, but in the same way with Babylon, he uses it to call us to discipline. And it's because Christianity has become so weak. It's become so, you know, a church attendance. Who cares? You know, come, do what you want. Christianity is whatever anybody wants it to be. You can claim Christ and just nominal Christianity and say whatever you want to be. And so there's a pruning that. It's painful to go through this pruning. And people always talk about, oh, we're gonna get down to. It's just the real Christians left, like, okay, but what do you, what then? What do you build with the real Christians? Don't you want to build back out of that and like get to a better place? And so I think everything we're undergoing is discipline and that the way to avoid it, on the one hand, there is the top down way of it's better when government protects Christians because that's exactly what Romans 13 is talking about. Like that government bears the sword to punish evildoers. People who go in and shoot Christians are evildoers. Right? People who persecute Muslims, they're evildoers. Like the government is supposed to go, hey, this is bad, we're not doing this. But if they're not doing that, the church's response is to be a pure light to the world. And has Christianity been a light to the world? In a lot of ways, yes. But you look at what Christianity has become in America, it's like, no wonder persecution, again, I would call it discipline. No wonder discipline is coming. And unfortunately it's the people who will stand up and take the discipline are left out to dry by the kind of Christians who are nowhere to be found when these things happen. And so to me, the best way out of this is for us to crack down on all the small stuff we've put up with, all the fornication we've put up with and the porn addiction and the wayward church attendance, skipping church for sports, all those things like. So I'm taking your question in a different direction. I think there is a top down element, but I think there's a bottom up element as well. Of our churches should be as pure and as dedicated to holiness as possible. To A, be a light but B, to kind of. It's our way of repenting. It's our sackcloth and ashes, Jack. [00:31:23] Speaker B: So this is appreciate. [00:31:24] Speaker C: I was just say I appreciate that distinction there between persecution and discipline. Just, just for like clarification purposes. Would you say so collectively? It sounds like you're saying the collective, for instance, LGBTQ agenda or you mentioned Islam, like stuff like that. You would categorize more in the. That's just God's discipline on, you know, the, the evils of our society. The individual side of it though, again, Jade and Ivy for instance, or the, or the couple at school that's having to maybe, that maybe lose their jobs because they refuse to say people's pronouns and stuff. Would you also categorize that as God's discipline? Or on an individual level, is that more so you're individually being persecuted just [00:32:00] Speaker A: for clarification purposes, you could say they were persecuted, but it is a result of this greater result in the same sense. Think of it like in the Old Testament, the Philistines, that was God's discipline on Israel. And if they come in and they go after, you know, I don't know, not that this happened, but Elijah, just for the sake of example, you could say Elijah was persecuted by them or whatever it was. But sure, yeah. And so it's kind of that. And I know somebody's going to jump in. America's not Israel. I think the church is Israel. Everywhere the church has gone. When it backslides it, God handles it like he did Israel of like sending things. If we won't discipline ourselves, he brings discipline on us. [00:32:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:38] Speaker A: So yeah. Individual and large versus large scale collective. Yeah. [00:32:44] Speaker C: I want to answer Joe's question with a question, as we like to do. Joe, that's a very good, honestly kind of fork in the road moment for this episode of like, which is better, essentially? Is it better to live in a world where you mentioned, like the church getting stronger. I haven't seen the church get stronger in the United States at least over the last 30 years. And maybe somebody would say, well, I guess they must not have been being persecuted hard enough. And I suppose they have a point there. But to the question of whether or not persecution should be kind of. Should it be the ideal, I think is what your question boils down to is an ideal thing for. Or should. Or is it better, is it more idealistic to get to a point where there is less and less persecution? My question for you, Joe, would be how do you. You've got it on the outline. Deal with Matthew 5 verses, really about 10 through 12, the closing out of the Beatitudes where Jesus says blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. Obviously everything else in that list, we would stand up and say, hey, that poor in spirit peacemakers, blessed are the merciful. Like, yep, check, check, check. Should be all those things. He includes persecution in there still within the first century still, obviously, you know, a couple decades before the intense persecution of Christians. How would you square? Because I don't think I disagree with you that, you know, ultimately living in a society that is, you know, run by Christian government, Christian businesses like that, we are surrounded by Christians. Would be a better. Would be a better thing. I think that's pretty clear and kind of common sense. It's better that than you are alone on an island, metaphorically as a Christian and you're just getting beat on every single side by again, government, businesses, whatever. So I think it's better to be surrounded by Christians. However, that does mean less persecution. So how would you, and I don't put you on the spot here, square that with Matthew 5 and Jesus specifically saying blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. [00:34:42] Speaker B: Well, I think there's a reality that you will be persecuted especially early on, especially as those Christians, they were going to face a lot of persecution. And I still think there's a lot of persecution around the world. But we don't do scripture wars per se. Right? I mean, it all has to fit together. And what does Matthew end on? The great commission of discipling the nations. So he knows as he sends the apostles out to disciple the nations. The goal is you're not going to face persecution in discipled nations. Those that have accepted Christ, that have been baptized, that have been taught the right way, you're not going to accept that. So he actually is sending them on the mission to do the very thing knowing they will be persecuted along the way as they're discipling the nations. That's something to be expected. The struggle for us in America is were we a disciple nation? Were we. We started out as a Christian nation. Now I think Jack's right. We're facing discipline for that, whereas Nigeria is not a Christian nation. They can expect persecution. And I think very much the Beatitudes comes into that of like, you're blessed for this as you're going into cycling the nations. And hopefully that sparks a revival or sparks, I shouldn't say revival sparks, you know, a great evangelistic effort in Nigeria in the future where we start to see these things. But man, you know, so that's what I would say is persecution is for those along the way as the nations are being discipled. Once it's discipled, then the problem is what motivates you to stay that way? Well, look at Israel. You start out as God's chosen people and you just fall, fall, fall, fall, fall, get disciplined over and over and over. I think that's what's taken place in America. Maybe we start out as Christian, but we just continue to slide. [00:36:11] Speaker C: One other point too that I want to bring up. So just to read, you know, Matthew 5. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. There will always be staunch opponents of Jesus Christ. And so when we think about, you know, an ideal world where, again, Christianity is spread. And again, there will always be people, in my opinion, like, there's just always going to be people who rise up who are opponents of Jesus Christ because they love the darkness, they hate the light. And so, yeah, whether or not those people are in power, I think is the question of what's better. Is it better that those people are in power or not? But when it, you know, again, if you lived somewhere heavily insulated by Christian values, that'd be great, great. There still are going to be people that are. That are, you know, opponents of Christ and who are going to reject the things that you stand for, reject your values. And so, you know, I just think that important element there in verse 11 about, say, all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. Whose sake? Christ's sake. There's always going to be those opponents of Christ, always going to be opponents of Jesus Christ. And so, again, thinking it really just comes down to whether or not those people. It's better if they're in power or not. But I wanted to bring that distinction up as well. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah, this is reminding me of the Aaron Ren distinction. We haven't talked about it in a good long while, but the three worlds of the positive world, where it's good to be a Christian, it's looked on as a good thing. If you say, I'm a Christian, people are like, oh, that's great. The neutral world's like, oh, okay, well, that's your thing. Do your thing. And then negative world, which is, oh, you're a Christian. And like, you see with jade and ivy, we've got this distinction now of there are a lot of athletes who say, I'm a Christian and wouldn't, you know, wouldn't stand up, wouldn't say what he says, you know, they're just not gonna wear their faith or ones that say they're a Christian and then go march in the pride parade or whatever. But other than that, anyone who actually holds Christian beliefs, it's looked at as very negatively. It might get you fired, it might be in a better place. And that anyone would look and go, oh, yeah, we're better off now. No, we're not. I mean, we're not. The idea that this drives evangelism, not currently as far as by percentage. How many people were in church in the positive world versus the negative world? You know, and so those questions you have. No, it's. It's kind of the persecution is a necessary evil. You think of it as like war or if you play the game of risk, right and you put all of the little figures up on the border and you're gonna try and take a new territory, you're gonna lose a bunch of them, right? When you go into. And they spread the gospel. That's what happened to the apostles, Right. A lot of them died as they took the gospel to new territories. But then the strategy goes from gaining those territories to holding those territories, and that's what we've let slip away. We're not holding the territory, and now we're losing. We're having people come at us into what should have been land that was held for. Christ is not. And if somebody's gonna go, oh, America was never a Christian nation. It wasn't perfect. It was doctrinally off. Or there's bad things were still happening. Slavery or segregation. I get all that. It was not a perfect place. That's not what I'm saying. It was a place where you can say, christ is Lord and nobody's going to have a problem with it. Where people are encouraged to go to church, where businesses are closed on Sunday, all of those kinds of things. That was that positive world. That's a good thing. Now we're on this other side of it, and the question should be, not, all right, this is great. What good is going to come of it is how do we get out of it? How do we get to a place where people are encouraged to go to church? Whereas as we had that episode, businesses are closed on Sundays, things like that, that encouraged people to go try Christianity, to live out Christian values. You know, kids didn't have to grow up thinking, am I a boy or a girl? Do I like boys? Do I like girls? How am I gonna do? Like, you just kind of had all of the train tracks were in a line for you of like, well, you're gonna grow up, you're gonna get married. You're not gonna be a degenerate. All of those things that was good, that shuffled people in the right way, which is one of the things government and culture and all these things are supposed to do. And it's not good that we've gotten away from that. And so what ends up happening is a guy says something that, I mean, 25 years ago, everybody in America believed that these gay people marching naked down the streets of our cities, waving flags is degenerate, is unrighteousness. And now he's out of a job. Like, that's not a positive development. And the goal for us, the question for us should be, what are we doing wrong? And how do we get ourselves back out of that. Not that we're running from persecution, but that we say, all right, in the midst of this, we got to get back on track so that this stops happening. When a young bee starts to learn her role in the beehive, she's not sure what to think, but but her older siblings are there to help her understand how she fits in and how it is all part of God's wonderful design. In each Ruby's Happy Hive book, Ruby learns important values and is encouraged to always do what is right. Wonderfully illustrated in full color, this series is an engaging way to teach your children or grandchildren about bees, but more importantly about the values of helpfulness, truthfulness and being a good steward. Search for Ruby's Happy Hive that's R U B E E by Heidi Fowler on Amazon and get your copies today. [00:41:32] Speaker C: Man as I just, I think so heavily with episodes like this about like application for the average listener. Kind of like I already said, I think a lot of this it just drastically does depend. You're going to have different opportunities to stand up and share your faith or stand your ground on stuff depending on the atmosphere that you work. And so I think it's honestly just taking inventory and taking a self assessment of like, man, what opportunities do I have? If you're somebody who works from home, you have three conference calls a day and not really any other interaction with people. Yeah, there's not going to be a lot of opportunities. And so maybe that's where you need to think, okay, you know, am I too comfortable? Like, are there things I need to be doing? You know, maybe a little bit more. If you're somebody who to Joe, you know, like Joe kind of self employed, does your own thing. But if you employ a lot of people, you are going to have opportunities to start your board meetings in prayer. You're going to have opportunities to as a high up leader or manager in a company, kind of share Christian values without preaching at people. I mean I run several meetings for leaders at Chick Fil A every week. Heavily faith based. I'm not reading the Bible to them necessarily, but again, we've got prayers involved and things like that. And so again, from an application standpoint, it just drastically is going to depend on what do you do for work for somebody who doesn't work for somebody who's retired. What are your opportunities? What are your, you know, you know, outlets for that. And I, I don't want to, you know, undermine that point by saying what I'm about to say, which is we also need to Keep an important reminder that discipling your kids to faithfulness, if you've got children at home, I think discipling your grandchildren to faithfulness, if you're, you know, again, retired and have grandkids that you are having active part in their lives, make sure you don't lose sight of that as well. That's a Think Deeper staple. I don't want to spend a ton of time on it because it's not really what we're talking about here. But I do think that's an important if you're spending all your time thinking, man, how do I get out and evangelize more at work? And you are neglecting to disciple your kids, that's a problem. It should go without saying, but I want to. I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't bring it up. Joe. [00:43:30] Speaker B: Well, I think there's a couple different angles as well that we've yet to hit on. One of those is okay, so a few, I should say, if you are forced to do the pronouns, do you do it? If that is the you get fired or you don't use your pronouns. And again, that's a 2, 20, 21 thing. But just practically speaking for the average listener, let's say they're facing that in the school system, Godless institutions, in my opinion. Yes. I think you take that and that blossoms into a different conversation, which was, I think, sorry, you stand up for what's right. [00:44:02] Speaker C: Okay. [00:44:02] Speaker B: I think you stand up. [00:44:03] Speaker C: No, don't, you know, don't use the pronouns. But yes, stand up for your. [00:44:06] Speaker B: Okay, again, be wise if there's any way around it. Sure. You know, take that, have the conversations. A lot of prayer, a lot of discussion, a lot of things like that. Going to the school board, relying and leaning on once again the equity you've built. And to say, hey, you know, this is my faith saying, now let's say you get fired. What should the church's response be to those who are facing persecution? How can the church best support and uphold and help those maybe that have lost jobs, maybe that are facing really tough times in work or whatever else? So want to throw that out to you guys, because there's that and then there's another angle, just about social media, how much we should be posting on social media about these things? How, you know, is this something that we should boldly go out there and just be pushing from social media? And there's another element, our last episode hits on this, which is persecution within the church. I think we persecute one another way more than we get from the world. And I think that's kind of an interesting angle of how we ought to combat that. But let's go to the first one. How should the church support those who have been persecuted? [00:45:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this is one of those. When we've talked about church charity, if someone in your church loses their job because they wouldn't put pronouns in the emails, let's say that person should be [00:45:13] Speaker C: very well supported by the congregation. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. And the, the line items in your budget should be, hey, you know what, we've got to take care of the home front here and sorry if you have to pay our other stuff back. And I know that's controversial. People have not liked our opinion on that. No, take care of the household of faith, especially for somebody who went and is being persecuted, suffering for their faith. Those are the kind of people that, I mean, like, that is a number one as to what we should do on that and basically let people know, hey, if push comes to shove and you have to take a stand, we have each other's back like that. That should absolutely be the message of the church. [00:45:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. I mean, it's still my answer there. I would agree with you, Joe, that, you know, the pronoun thing, man, dodge it if you can. Try to, try to do the generic. But no, I mean, if they're going to force you to. I do think the answer to that one is no. Very easy for me to say. Never had to deal with it. But yeah, Jack said what I was going to say, which is, man, that's where I mean, you got. I don't want to, you know, they say you shouldn't, you know, count people's money, look in people's pockets type of thing. There's a lot of congregations that have a lot of money in the budget. Just a lot of money in the budget, a lot of money in the bank account. That's where I really think. And, you know, I'm to a point now where we're. Obviously, we give to the church every week, but we, you know, been blessed by God financially. I'm looking for opportunities to give even beyond what the church, you know, what I give to the church every Sunday. There's a lot of people like that within congregations also. They're like, hey, I've got money to give. I just kind of don't know where to give it. I do think that, to Jack's point, somebody who loses their job due to something like that, it should be a bit of a All right, you know, we've got your back. Let's all come together and support. Help this guy, or girl, whoever it is, find a new job. Let's, you know, really kind of support them in this. That's the main way, I think, you know, the church can. Can really stand up and be involved in people's lives who are persecuted is from that perspective. Joe, you asked, like, three questions there. So I'm trying to remember what your second [00:47:08] Speaker B: one was. That's a great question. I'm trying to remember your third one [00:47:12] Speaker C: was about last week's episode. Yeah, but. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Yeah, well, just about the church and how to, you know, how much we should be. Well, there's a social media element to this. How much should we be? [00:47:21] Speaker C: Vocal media. Yeah, I'm pretty out on social media overall, as I've kind of gotten to. You know, I used to it when I was 19, 20 or whatever. And people. I love my mom, I think she listens. But people like her would always be like, if something was wrong with the world, blame social media. Like, that's what's wrong with the world. Social media, Social media. I'm starting to come around on that a little bit. Like, there's just so many things that I'm just. I don't know, I think it is a detriment to our society. Where I'm going with. Where I'm getting at with that is I think there are a lot of people that will, you know, push to be evangelistic on social media, and I don't know that it does a ton of good. I'm sure there are people who have seen a post or something or friends with somebody who's not a Christian and the things that they post has, you know, I don't know, been inspirational to them, whatever. I'm sure that happens. I just think a lot of times on social media, it's far more performative than not. Now, to the other side of the coin, I do think to Jack's question earlier about if you were on trial for being a Christian, would they know you're a Christian? If you look. If somebody looks at your social media page and can't really tell that you're a Christian, that's a problem. Now, that obviously could go into what clothes are you wearing, what, you know, entertainment are you showing support for? Do you mention anything about God or, you know, things like that? I do think there's an element of, hey, look at somebody's social media page should be fairly obvious that they're a Christian. Using it, you know, strictly for evangelistic purposes. [00:48:47] Speaker B: Great. [00:48:48] Speaker C: If you want to. I think it's great. Obviously, I don't have a problem with it. I would just caution people against being performative with it, which I think is what it can turn into for some people. So that's my quick. Social media. Take kind of the two sides of the coin there, Jack. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I. There is a value, especially as this, maybe as the persecution grows, in putting a flag out. So you just kind of know and, you know, helping other people build up courage as well. And really, I think that's something we need to develop is like, hey, Christians, just be a proud Christian. Because one of the things that happened with the whole neutral world approach, as, you know, the positive, negative, neutral. Those years we were in the neutral world, and all of us people my age grew up into that. And so much of the Christian push in that time was basically just show them that Christians are very nice and unthreatening. Stay out of the controversies. Just show them that you're cool. And you can see this when you watch, like, you know, Tim Keller was kind of the. The patron saint of the neutral age, and you watch him talk about abortion, as we've talked about before, and, well, it's just not God's best for you. Or, like, he's not just gonna be like, yeah, that's a sin. You're murdering your kid, and that's wrong. Have strong takes like that. That is a useful thing right now is just unequivocally, don't be wishy. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Put it where you are. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's something, again, you have to be careful with because your employers are looking at social media. It's okay to have a private page or whatever, like, do what you have to do. But for the people you are friends with, if you're gonna post on social media, it's okay to just say, I stand here. And I think a lot of Christians look at that as icky as basically like, oh, no, that's. You know, you don't want to know. You want them. You want a. Your fellow Christians to see it's okay to take a stand. You want other people to say, hey, other people unashamedly believe this. As the LGBT thing came on, it was basically like, oh, yeah, I'm rabidly pro lgbt, or I'm just gonna sit over here and not share my opinion on it. I think if there had been, I mean, just a fraction of a percent more of Christians going, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is. No, we're not doing this. We might be in a different place. But we were all just kind of trained into silence of like, don't, don't push them on that issue. Just push them on the gospel and then we'll get them back around to the. No, like that issue leads to the gospel. You know, like that's, as somebody said, when we call them to repent, it's like, repent of what? Right. Like these things that they love, these things they want to do. And so if you're not a big social media person, I'm not telling you to become a big social media person. If you are a social media person, don't let anybody make you feel bad for taking a stand for Christian values. That's a good point. Yeah, that's, you know, don't be pushed [00:51:31] Speaker B: into silence because notice it doesn't take very much for them to flip out. Jaden Ivey called it unrighteousness. Like that's all he did. And he gets kicked off because he just said it's unrighteousness. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Well, let me pull this up. The. There's a gay sports website that came up when I googled this out, sports and it said, Patriots player unleashes anti gay rant defending Jaden Ivy. [00:51:54] Speaker C: He literally quoted a Bible verse. [00:51:55] Speaker A: He posted a Bible verse. Now he had another post where he was talking about the, basically the war of good and evil and all that. But that wasn't in response to the Ivy thing directly. That was just him kind of preaching on social media. But, you know, unleash his anti gay rant. Like, no, the only thing he said directly about the situation was the Bible verse about persecution. And so it's like you're gonna be characterized as being an extremist no matter what. Don't feel bad about it, you know. Exactly. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Might as well get out there. [00:52:21] Speaker A: So what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's one of the beautiful things we're seeing is hopefully again younger generations, as we said a bunch before, no, Gen Z is not majority Christian. They're not all coming back to church. But the ones who are, they're not messing around. They're saying, I'm not apologizing. I'm not embarrassed to be a Christian. I'm not hiding my beliefs like has happened in recent generations. I'm not the unthreatening Christian. No, I'm a Christian that essentially you kind of need to be not nervous about. Like, I'm going to hurt you, but like you're going to be uncomfortable with when I, when I open my mouth and say my beliefs. And that's okay, you know, I mean, like, you look at everything Jesus said about they're going to hate you, and everything in Christianity for the last 20 years has been about, like, how do you get them not to hate you? [00:53:09] Speaker C: Make sure they, like, you don't hate us. [00:53:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You got to be likable. Like, well, and as I said before, don't personally be a jerk. Make sure they hate you for the gospel and not for. Because you're a lousy person. But don't be afraid to be hated either. [00:53:24] Speaker B: Yeah, great thoughts, Great thoughts. I don't have anything to add on either of my questions because I think you guys handled it very well. You know, the last piece, of course, being the see our last podcast for church persecution, how to handle some of those things. I do think that's a relevant thing. Some of the worst. Some of the worst times I've ever been treated in my life, I'd probably say probably the top three worst times I've ever been treated in my life have been from church members. This happens. And so to take it to that level of, yes, you'll face persecution. A lot of people look at church hurt and they walk away from the church. That is not an excuse. That is never an excuse. People are flawed. People will do negative things, bad things. The world persecutes you, too. You don't just leave the world. This is going to happen. And yes, there are Christians that should be held to a higher standard. They will in front of God, but they should be held to a higher standard. They don't always act like it. That hurts. And that's difficult. And I'm not saying that it doesn't hurt or you don't have a right to be wounded by it. Don't take it out on God. You know, we don't walk away from church because of that. And so I just wanted to say that real fast, but we stand with you. We hear you. I mean, that sometimes can be a really, really difficult thing for people to be persecuted within their own church. And I'm thinking from like, you homeschool, you know, if you push homeschooling at all, who. Boy, you better watch out. [00:54:32] Speaker C: Women saying at home [00:54:36] Speaker B: all sorts of things like that. [00:54:37] Speaker A: Here's another angle on this. You know, we had that episode last week about church cancellations and stuff like that. I'm sorry if we're, like, driven underground and you're at threat of prison, going to prison for worshiping Jesus or whatever else, are you really going to be doing the devil loving Truth hating, false teacher thing for your brother who thinks it's new heavens, new earth, or that it's okay to pray to Jesus, no, that stuff's going to go away. And so this is all ridiculous. And I preached a sermon right after the Charlie Kirk thing to say, look, this, not just the guy that shot him, but how many people celebrated this guy that was shot for his hateful words. And his hateful words are things that we all, everybody in that room believes. And there are people, maybe half the nation thinks we should be shot for these beliefs. And we come in here and we running rake each other over the coals. That's insane that we're that hated out there. We cannot do this to each other like we have. We're all what each other have in this moment is, you know, we're God's family here on earth. That's something we need to lean into. The more persecution, discipline, whatever you want to call it that we see. [00:55:39] Speaker C: Great thoughts. Yeah, I think my closing thoughts for this would be I've been thinking a lot lately about as I raise my kids, what do I want their primary, I don't know, lens through which they see the world to be or their primary pursuit. I think a lot of kids and unfortunately the longer you go with this, the more you see the detriments of it later on in life. Kind of comfort and pleasure is kind of the what they, what they kind of pursue. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:08] Speaker C: And you see little kids do that. They always, they want to watch TV or they want ice cream. Like comfort and pleasure. Right. The earlier that you can start working with your kids on, hey, do, do the hard thing first, get your chores done, get your schoolwork done, then you can enjoy yourself. The more successful, the better off they're going to be in life because they start to work on, hey, I'm not going to see the world through a, how can I get to comfort quick? Quickest. How can I get to enjoy myself and pleasure quickest? They don't see the world that way. I guess my clothes, it might be kind of a weird thing to end with. My point is, I think if you can get to a point where we're raising our kids to not view comfort as the ultimate pinnacle or as pleasure as the ultimate pinnacle, they're going to be a lot more ready to deal with this persecution. They're going to be a lot more ready to maybe stand up for their beliefs or even without seeking it out, but they're going to be a lot more, again, ready for that as opposed to kind of running things through the filter of, oh man, this is going to make things really uncomfortable for me. This, this is not going to go, man, I'll just keep it to myself. I'm not going to. Does that make sense? Like, that's kind of my closing thoughts here is I think we need to see the world not through those lenses. Is it wrong to enjoy ourselves or to, you know, want to be comfortable sometimes? No. But I think raising kids with that as their primary focus and pursuit can lead to a generation where nobody's really going to stand up for their faith or nobody's going to stand up for what they believe or even really have strong beliefs because it's going to put them in a position of uncomfortability or of just not being, I don't know. Again, comfortable is the word I'm coming up with. Just not comfortable. And that's where I think you can do a lot of damage to the church is if you have a generation who's not really willing to stand up or even have any beliefs because it's going to violate their pursuit of comfort or pleasure. So those are kind of my closing thoughts to bring it back around to raising kids in this way. Joe? [00:57:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think persecution can be used to the glory of God just as much as, you know, Christians around the world can be used to the glory of God. And so in this situation, my closing remarks would just be that Jaden Ivey opened the door to a huge social media push for, you know, a discussion on this. So, sure he's persecuted, sure he's cut from the team. I don't. I feel bad for him. But he also got the rest of his $10 million contract. So, you know, yeah, don't feel quite as bad as some of the people we're talking about. [00:58:25] Speaker C: The. I don't think he's going to. [00:58:28] Speaker B: I don't think he's going to starve. But on the other hand, like, his persecution has led toward a huge discussion online. God can absolutely use terrible situations for his glory and can open the doors. And so if you're facing persecution, if you're worried about it, God's got a bigger picture. God is in control. We trust and trust in him through and through because there's such power in telling the truth. That was a big Jordan Peterson thing. Obviously, he didn't originate the idea of telling the truth, but that was kind of a big one. Is like, tell the truth, you know, speak the truth and tell the truth to yourself. You lying to yourself or you trying to skirt out of some of the, you know, again, be wise about it. But, like, sometimes it's just time to tell the truth. And yes, you're going to be hated for that because the world loves darkness and the world loves evil and lies and things like that. But there's power in that. And it just, it emboldens people around you to speak up for their faith and things like that. There's a story of Telemachus the monk. And, you know, he, he goes, he's taken his first. And I don't even know if this is a legit. I think it's a legit story in history, but, you know, he's taken to his first gladiatorial games as a monk. And he's like, what is going on? And he runs out there and he jumps the wall and goes out there and it's like, hey, what are we doing? Type of thing. And he gets killed in the coliseum of sorts. And I think they said that's the last call or last gladiatory or gladiator games that they ever had because it was such a jarring thing for a monk to get killed. It was him going out there saying, what are we doing? You know, and persecuted to some degree. But the idea of like one man standing up, it can affect things. It absolutely can change things. And so that's what I'd say is God can use it for his glory. Stand firm, tell the truth, you know, stand up where possible where, where necessary. And God's got you. [01:00:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:11] Speaker A: I'm not going to add any more closing thoughts because that. I want to leave the last one. I said if we, when we're facing this outwardly, we've got to love each other and have each other's back internally, whatever comes our way. And so love your fellow Christians, grow close to your fellow, you know, your church. That is going to be your base. That's going to be who you rely on if things do get really bad. So let's just keep pushing each other in the right direction and having each other's back. So good thoughts, guys. Thanks to everybody who listened. As always, drop a comment for us or join us in the deep end focuspress.org/ where you get the exclusive weekly Deep End Q and A episode along with daily devos and all kinds more content. In fact, Joe and I are getting close to wrapping up our deep dive into the minor profits. So join us over [email protected] plus and we'll talk to you guys on the next one. Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do. The best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening.