Getting the Proverbs 31 Woman Right

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Think Deeper. Presented by Focus Press. I'm your co host Joe Wilkie, joined as always by Jack Wilkie and Will Hareb. And today we have a great episode for you, something we're excited about, just something that kind of came to us. Jack was talking about an idea he had and we might have a second, a part two episode, I believe on this regarding men, regarding some things as we get into masculinity, but we thought, you know, our bread and butter and something that we end up getting probably the most views on and that people care the most about is our talk on masculinity and femininity. And so we thought we'd go back around to that but take somewhat of a different path. We don't want to just rehash the same things that we always say. So Jack threw out, man. What if we kind of walked through Proverbs 31. This is one of the most misused, in my opinion, one of the most misused texts and the Bible regarding the discussion of masculinity, femininity, to talk about her being a girl boss. We want to get into that discussion. We want to break open, like, what does this actually mean? What does the text, you know, what's it trying to tell us? What does this look like in modern times? Some of those things are just not going to translate perfectly. What does that look like, though, in the year 2026? And so we got some things we definitely want to get into, things we're excited about. Fellas, any thoughts as we open up? [00:01:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say there's a strong disagreement within Christendom, within the Church of Christ specifically, I suppose, on should a woman work outside the home? Is it, you know, a stay at home mom versus a wife who goes out and works, you know, 40 hours a week? Should we view those as equal? Should we view one as better than the other? Obviously, the three of us have kind of planted our flag on the fact that we believe the Bible teaches that it is superior, it is better, it is best for a wife to be a stay at home mom, to be a homemaker, to not be chasing the corporate career, to not be trying to climb the corporate ladder, to not be, you know, looking out for the CEO or try trying to get the CEO position and yeah, to take care of the home. And again, it's not our position that that is, you know, if you want to do that or if you want to, you know, go be a career woman, either one is fine. Like, that's not our position. Our position is that it's better. But there are people who will try to say, hey, you can't really say that. That being a homemaker is better than someone who goes and works outside the home. And they'll usually point to Proverbs 31. Proverbs 31 is kind of used by a lot as kind of a shield to hide behind to say, hey, take a look. And we're not going to get into it just yet, but, you know, hey, she's going out and she's basically a realtor, and she is making all these deals, and she is basically a businesswoman. And again, they will point to Proverbs 31 to try to say, hey, this is why it is no problem for a woman to work inside the home. So we want to dive into that. We want to dive into. Proverbs 31 is a very, you know, it's a powerful and a very positive example of everything a godly woman can be. And I think it's really cool to take a look at. Apart from kind of that debate and that controversy, what does Proverbs 31 tell us about what a godly wife should look like? As Joe spoke to, we talked about trying to squeeze it into this episode. Maybe the other side of men might have to be pushed to next episode. We'll kind of see how it goes. But, Jack, any introductory thoughts as we kind of get to this Proverbs 31 discussion? [00:03:26] Speaker A: When we've talked about women's ladies days, women's classes, stuff like that, they always say that's all we talk about is Proverbs 31. Like, all right, but we don't get to go to those. So we're gonna talk about it. And I don't know. I know, as you mentioned, we've seen a lot of the misuses of Proverbs 31. And so what. One of the reasons this came to me was the idea that, yes, there's the things that are taught incorrectly, but, like, what is in there? And so much of it gets focused on her work that it's like, man, there's a whole life character set here that's not just focused on, did she work at home? Did she not work at home? And so that I thought there was just a lot of uncovered territory here that. And one of the things I really love about it, not to jump way ahead, but that it ends with the blessing that it is and the praise from her husband, the praise from her children. When we talk about the work of a mom and a housewife and all of that, people just look at it as, oh, just this thankless job, this horrible, you know, basically enslavement kind of thing. It's like, no, this is the, the path to glory for a woman. Like this is her fulfilling her God given duty as is laid out here that leads to her family and everyone around going, man, this woman is great. And so glorifying. That is something I really want to do as part of this as well. [00:04:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker B: So a couple questions. Go for it. [00:04:43] Speaker C: I was just gonna say, and this is ground that we've covered before, but I think it's worth mentioning here before Joe, I guess you get us into some questions that you have is it really matters the angle to which you raise your daughters. It very much matters that from the time that they're young, they know kind of where am I being aimed as a person, as a child of God, as a daughter of God. A lot of the issues that can come about is when I know you guys have talked about this with your sisters is you tell not not to pick on them, but you tell somebody in the older generation, a Gen Xer, specifically a boomer, you know, hey, what's your daughter gonna do? She's about to grad, you know, she's about to graduate high school, like, oh, she's gonna, you know, maybe work and until she gets married and be a stay at home mom, like that's what she wants to do. The dirty looks that get given to girls when that is their answer and the kind of condescension, the oh, why aren't you going to go to college questions and you know, like just imagine a set of parents, you know, loudly proclaiming, we are going to raise our daughter to be a lawyer, to be a nurse, to be a whatever that is going to be met with rounds of applause just about across the board. You've got a set of parents to say, we're going to raise our daughter to be a faithful homemaker, wife and mother in a lot of churches. Again, the older generations generally are not going to meet that with near the round of applause that again the lawyer or the you know, career, you know, whatever it is, you know, for their daughters. And so this really matters that we are able to, you know, again, from the time that they're young, like what are we angling them towards? What are we aiming them towards as young girls. Sorry Joe, not to cut in front of you, but I just wanted to kind of say that at the start you're good. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Well, what I was going to ask is, you know, it starts off an excellent wife who can find. And is this an idealism? Is this the idealistic? Like, okay, this woman doesn't really exist, you know, because there's thoughts on. Is he. Is Solomon describing his wife, you know, or a woman that he knows? Or is this just kind of laying out the idealistic, like, here's some things to strive for. Not everybody's gonna have. Not every woman's gonna have all of these things present. I think that's important to kind of COVID right off the bat of, like, as we are striving for those things will, as you're talking about that, and we're trying to. To prep our daughters. All of us have daughters. As we're trying to prep our daughters and think about our wives, and we all have amazing wives. Is this the ideal goal here? And we just kind of should recognize that this is not reality? Or do you think these things are reality? As he's talking about an excellent wife? Like, is it possible to become this? [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think kind of what you're getting at it is an ideal. And that's. There's so many things in the Bible that are an ideal. Jesus is an ideal for all of us to strive for. And with the full knowledge, you're not gonna get there. But there's. There's a lot of good to work towards here. And so you take the principles. You know, my wife doesn't sell flax. Okay. Like, so there's, you know, that kind of when you get hyper specific. But in a general sense of the principles laid out here, the traits and the qualities. Right. They are things to strive for because. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I was gonna get. That's. That's kind of why I'm asking. The question is, like, as we get into this, as we talk about, you know, prepping for this or, you know, thinking about what we're trying to get out of this, we're recognizing this is not something that we expect every woman to be perfect at. Every one of these things. It's more of the. We're moving in this direction to help them understand the principles at play, to help them understand what's really underneath this, what drives a woman. Like the Proverbs 31 Woman, what makes her an excellent wife. I don't think it's just getting everything down the line. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That'd be great. But that's idealistic. It's a more. It's about the heart that is trying to move into a. You know, to being something like this or with those character traits. And so I guess that's what I'm getting at is like, to me, it's really about the heart. [00:08:32] Speaker C: Yeah. And as we kind of go through it, I don't know if we're necessarily exegete it here, but like, you kind of point out that you can very much see the qualities and traits that come out outside of the specifics, as Jack spoke to, like the, you know, rising while it is yet night and making, you know, linen garments, stuff like that. That's the specific. But what's the quality? Like, what's the heart matter that comes about it? But Joe, to answer your question, I think. I think it's idealistic in the same way that maybe the Beatitudes are idealistic. And when I say that, I mean like idealistic. But yes, we need to be striving for it. And I think that's what you said, basically. But like, you know, the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5, you know, there's so many. The Christian virtues in Second Peter. I believe Second Peter, chapter one. And so like, I think. I think it parallels in the sense of like, we need to be looking at Second Peter one and going, man, how do I measure up? Not in a, you know, constantly degrading ourselves. I'll never be this, I'll never be that, but in a. This is kind of what Peter says we need to add to our faith. I need to measure myself to that. I think Proverbs 31. I think the way that, you know, it's laid out is similar. Like he's setting up a figure similar to the way he sets up the seductress or the Harlot in Proverbs 5 of like, this is what she does. Her lips are like, you know what I mean? Like kind of building a character almost. I do think it's similar in that instance. But yeah, I do think it's something that, you know, you know, Christian girls and Christian women probably should kind of measure themselves off of. And like, again, not the specifics, but the qualities of the service and some of the other stuff. How do I measure up to this? [00:10:04] Speaker B: And defining yourself as this is why it's important that he starts this way. Defining yourself as an excellent wife. I feel like in this culture it's not, I don't know, because the guy gets put down so much. The idea of, I really want to be an excellent wife. What does that entail? What heart do I need to have? What things should I be striving for? What's kind of the ideal of pushing toward being an excellent wife that is kind of lost. In my opinion. [00:10:27] Speaker A: The wife part is like the add on the inconsequential. Yeah, you're this, that and the other thing. This is who you're trying to be and you're married. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Exactly. Like, well, no, but what, what do you want to do with your life? I know you want to be a wife, you know, that's fine. But like, who are you? Like an excellent wife. That, that's the goal. And women, and this is a kind of unpopular thing, but women are defined, surrounded by, you know, surrounded by the men that, you know they're married to and that they grow up around and their fathers and such. And it's because they're a help meet. And when women do try to stand on their own, it's kind of a scary place. Guys are going to be more of the lone wolves. Guys do that a lot better. Women are way better on the relational end of things. But every time, like a woman is a help meet for a reason, she was created with a man in mind. And that sounds so sexist to the modern. The goal here is to try to be an excellent wife because, yeah, you're trying to help your husband. And that's a big part of this is the husband's mentioned in this text, but it's the wife that is able to boost up her husband. And these things are done to better the home and to better the relationships around her. And so the excellence and this ideal that we're striving for is for a very specific reason of bettering the home. It's not just her looking to be a girl boss and looking to be better herself. That's what the culture pushes is the feminist like individualism. I don't think women thrive, I don't think anybody really thrives in individualism. But women especially don't thrive in individualism because I just don't think they're geared that way. They're very relational beings and way more than men. And so we start off just as we jump into it with an excellent wife. That is the goal, I think, for women. What I want to raise my daughter to become and to think of herself as an excellent wife. What would that look like? And that takes a reframe from what everything in the culture tells you to do. [00:12:10] Speaker A: And as always, there will be those that don't have that opportunity, that privilege in life. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:12:15] Speaker A: And so, you know, there are qualities here for them to strive for. Even if you're not married, however, that is a big part of it. And you Go back to what we talked about a little bit last week with the in the news episode about divorce. And just kind of, well, I've got my life, you've got yours, and if they overlap for 10 years, great. And then we'll just go do different things. Like, this is the man and the woman together, a team, and he's the lead, and she's the help Meet. And you can go to all kinds of texts on this. You can go back to Creation. You go to First Corinthians 11, where it says that man is the image and glory of God and woman is the glory of man. And all of those things, how they go from there. And you notice, as you point out, excellent wife who can find her worth is far above jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her. He will have no lack of gain. She does him good and no evil. All the days of her life, her life is oriented towards him. [00:13:02] Speaker C: The focus is on the husband. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Right, right. And lifting him up. And as you said, Joe, a lot of people are gonna be like, oh, that is so sexist. Oh, my goodness. So her life is about lifting him up, is like, look, the offensive lines job, their career is about blocking for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. That's a tough job. That's not. That's a. Not a glamorous job. That's how you win a Super Bowl. Like, that's how you make a team. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Without them, those quarterbacks go nowhere. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:29] Speaker B: You know, or they have a really tough time. They don't become as great as they are. So, of course, that's why every offensive lineman gets given the, you know, they'll give him the razors or they'll give him nice watches or whatever throughout the season, because the quarterbacks recognize the same way a husband does. Recognizes. [00:13:44] Speaker C: I'm nothing without you, you know? [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't do these things without you. [00:13:47] Speaker C: What's so interesting about Proverbs 31 as a whole? I know we're just kind of in the first couple verses right here, but, you know, verse 11 starts it. The. The whole context of the. You know, this section of Proverbs 31. Look at how many mentions of husband, children, and household are in this section. Like, everything is just for the Proverbs 31, Woman, everything is described within the context of her household. There's a total of 8 mentions of her husband, her household, or her children. Verse 11, verse 15, verse 21 has it twice. Verse 23, verse 27, and verse 28 has it twice. I mean, you see, just like again, the Focus for this, you know, virtuous. This excellent woman is on the house. We read verse 11, verse 15, provides food for her household. Jack referenced or alluded to earlier verse 28, that her children rise up and call her bus. Her husband also, and he praises her. Her husband's known in the gates. Like, I think that's missed sometimes in the, you know, kind of misinterpretation, like, oh, she's a, again, girl boss, going out and selling houses type of thing. Like, yeah, and it's all in the context of her home and her household and what she can do for her husband and for her children. And so, yeah, this verse 11 just kind of kicks it off. That that's. That's the. The direction that she's aimed is supporting her husband, supporting her children, providing for her household. And I think that gets missed a good bit again, eight times in this whole section is what you see. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Let me say this, and this sounds very mean. I know a lot of guys, I know a lot of women that also have. Have, you know, struggled, failing husbands in ways, as we could say. But I will tell you, there is not a shortage right now of younger women who are divorcing their husbands, cheating on their husbands, leaving their husbands just out of the blue. I could list. I guarantee, like, right now I could stop and probably list eight to 10 names that I'm aware of in the last year or two alone of people that I'm acquainted with, people that I know, people related to, people that, like, these things happen. When we talk about the heart of her husband, trusts in her, that can't be understated. I know we got to move on. I know we got a ton of verses here that can't be understated. There are a lot of husbands right now who don't trust that things are going to get done when they get home, that don't trust that the house can be cleaned, that don't trust the wife with the kids, that don't trust in those areas we always talk about. And we can get to this next week. Everybody's going to go, well, what about the men? We'll get to that next week. [00:16:06] Speaker C: Just wait. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, just wait. That's fine. [00:16:08] Speaker A: As if we haven't spent plenty of time on that. We will and we will. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Again, everybody rushes in and goes, what about the men? Not time to talk about the men. There's a lot of women that are dropping their duty, and the husband cannot trust that it's going to get done. And so we have these discussions like, well, honey, when you get home, you just need to do half the housework. It's like, I'm sorry you're a stay at home mom. When I come home, my job is not. We just covered this on the gym podcast. Like, when I come home, my job is not to do the dishes for you. I will occasionally hop in and help. That ain't my job. I need to trust that you're going to get these things done, that the kids are going to be, you know, well disciplined and trained and fed while I'm gone. I need to trust in you. And the part of being an excellent wife is earning the trust of your husband enough. I know I could and I've done this before. I went on a business trip and left my wife with the kids for like six straight days. My wife is a rock star. My wife is incredible. And I didn't think once about, I don't think she can do it. I thought how difficult that'd be for her. We had conversations about it. She nailed it. You know, like, I trust in her a thousand percent. That's the sign of an excellent woman. As we get started on this. And I think a lot of women don't look at it that way of they don't realize how it corrodes the trust that their husband has when day after day they're nagging them, day after day they're trying to mother them. Day after day they're coming home and the woman has done nothing all day. It erodes that trust. And he, he does lack gain because of that. [00:17:25] Speaker C: Well, I think part of it too. I got two thoughts on that. Joe. I think that's a great point. The first thought that I had was, man, I do feel bad for all these, you know, girls who might really want to be able to do this for their husband and provide for the house and they're just not taught how. I mean, my mom tell, you know, talks about. And my mom is, you know, in her 50s. How her, her mom and I love my grandmother. She's amazing. Was an excellent cook. [00:17:48] Speaker B: Excellent. [00:17:49] Speaker C: Didn't cross her mind to teach my mom how to cook. Like, they just, like my mom, you know, got married and didn't know how to cook with a mom who was an incredible cook. This, this kind of stuff happens. Like girls will get married, they'll get, they'll be, they'll kind of head into their role as a wife and just have absolutely no knowledge. And it's like, yeah, it's kind of hard to blame you because you weren't trained, you weren't taught. And so especially again, when these. To go back to my earlier point, when these young girls are not being raised with that in mind, like, oh, yeah, we'll split the housework. We'll, you know, we'll both work 40 hours. Like, yeah, that's not going to be a focus for them. But, man, the other thought that I had, Joe, you know, when you think about everything you were just describing, [00:18:27] Speaker A: it [00:18:28] Speaker C: all comes down to when you wake up every single day. What is your main focus? When you're in a marriage, husband and wife, your main focus should be how can we work together to build a wonderful life that is, you know, comfortable and happy for both of us far too often. And applies to men, too. We will get to them next week. They're selfish, do their own hobbies, whatever for. Women wake up every day and the focus is, how can I have the most comfortable day? How can I. Like, they don't. Their world revolves around them. We talk about that in terms of kids a lot like the kids who think the world revolves around them. I see a lot of women, I see a lot of wives that, you know, the same thing. What's my social calendar gonna be like? I gotta make sure that my husband's around to watch the kids so I can go do xyz. I gotta make sure that he's doing his share of the housework. Like, everything is seen through the lens of how can I have an enjoyable day? How can I do the things I want to do? And again, husbands can be just as guilty. Well, get to them next week. But that is, you know, that that's what you see in the. You don't see in the Proverbs 31:Woman. She's seeing things through the lens of how can I serve? I mean, as we kind of keep going down the list. She seeks wool and flax, works diligently, works willingly with her hands. She's like the merchant ships, brings her food from afar. She's working. She's, you know, providing for her household. That is seeing things through the lens of how can I serve my family? How can I, you know, put myself last? That's not how a lot of. And I'll. I'll pick on the younger generation this time. That's not really how a lot of, you know, young wives and moms look at it. It's kind of like a kid. How can I enjoy myself today? [00:20:05] Speaker A: So those all reminded me of this Spurgeon quote. He said, when husbands and wives are well yoked, how light their load becomes. A well matched couple carry a joyful life between them. They multiply their joys by sharing them and lessen their troubles by dividing them. This is fine arithmetic, this division of labor thing. And she can count on you to bring home the bacon, you can count on her to handle the home front, which is what the Proverbs 31 woman does. It makes life better for both of you. It makes it to where you can enjoy the off time, you can enjoy the life around it. That it's not always stress and all of these things, but it takes both of you working hard and committing to this. And I just read a post today as we were preparing for this where they were talking about how many influencers, how many reels there are shorts, tiktoks, whatever you watch, basically telling women it's okay, it's really not possible to have a clean house or it's really not possible to do X, Y and Z and don't be too hard on yourself or whatever. Like this is the job. Like you try to get better at it. Is every single day going to end with all the dishes done and a perfectly clean house? No, but this is the job. And so the other thing about it, and as before, we're kind of starting to get into the hard work part of this. But as far as like the husband, wife, division and labor part, what's interesting to me is that this passage assumes this. This is not us taking like that. There's. There is this debate that goes on in our day as to is it this? Is that, is it, Are we equal? Is he the head of the family hurt? This just assumes it. Everything that we talked about, all the verses we read will went through and highlighted all the times it brings up the husband. It works from this help meet assumption that he's the head of the household and she's helping him in his work, run this house, keep it going, not the other way around. Not some. She's got her life, he's got his. And they're pooling the resources to make a. No, no, no, it's not that it's a dance. He's the first step, she's the second step. And what she does complements what he does. And so yeah, that is important as part of this. But we are kind of starting to get to the work part of this. Verse 13 she looks for wool and flax, her works with her hands in delight. That delight is a common theme throughout Scripture. Not complaining. She is like merchant ships. She brings her food from afar, she rises. Also while it's still night and gives food to her household and portions to her maiden. We'll get to some more of that here in a bit. But like morning, noon and night, this is a hard working woman. It takes that in depth but easy to understand. That's how War in heaven, war on earth. What the book of Revelation meant to the original readers and what it means for us today has been described. An Amazon reviewer said it was the best commentary on Revelation he had read in 50 years. Bradley Cobb spent literally thousands of hours researching and putting together this material, showing how first century Christians, the ones the book was written to, would have understood the book, how it matches with the rest of the Bible and how it was something that was about to happen when John wrote it. Thoroughly biblical in his approach, including the dating of the book. Supported with first century history. This 550 page book does not gloss over any details and includes points of application throughout each of the book's 48 studies. Great for personal study or for a year long Bible class. Available on Amazon.com in hardcover, paperback or Kindle. [00:23:27] Speaker C: So I've got a question here and Joe Agus, I'll direct it to you here. [00:23:31] Speaker A: There you go. [00:23:34] Speaker C: How do you square that? I'm going to leave the career side of that. I guess we'll get to that. I mean, everybody kind of already knows where we stand on that. But we can get to why we don't think this is saying go have a career. Maybe in a minute. Another angle of this, Joe, I'm curious, is it does seem like for the Proverbs 31 woman, there is a good bit of physical labor involved. And I know we can read culture into it, but there is a good bit. She seeks wool and flax. She willingly works with her hands. There's physical labor there. She obviously provides food. There's planting a vineyard in verse 16. There is, you know, stretching out our hands to the distaff and holding the spindle in verse 19, physical labor. How do you square, how do, how should we square that with the idea, you know, that I think, I really, I think is in kind of the masculinity realm of like, hey, we don't want our wife to have to do any physical labor. We've talked about this, actually. We don't want to have to have her feel like she needs to mow the yard or, you know, we don't want, you know, her to feel like she has to, you know, kind of do some of those like more manly, considered manly things. Again, mowing the lawn, I guess is the best Example that comes to mind, you know, stuff like that, working on the car, fixing us, you know, whatever it is. I would stand behind the fact that the man needs to primarily be taking care of those things. But how do you kind of square that, hey, my wife should not be doing hardly anything from a physical labor standpoint like that with what we're seeing here in Proverbs 31, which, yes, she's providing food, you know, she's taking care of the household, but it is also, again, working with her hands and kind of seems to be some physical labor going on. What are your thoughts on that? [00:25:07] Speaker B: That's a great question. I don't think everything lends toward physical labor these days near as much in terms of us not having to feed ourselves from the land type of thing. On the other hand, I'm a big believer in women having creative outlets and outlets that beautify things and outlets that. That grow things. Women are amazing at growing. They grow babies inside them. Like, I think women make great gardeners. I think them going out and, you know, when we think about building out an entire home and homemaking, they are making a home through creativity, through the things that they put their hands to. A lot of women miss the art of homemaking. I keep shouting at my wife. My wife is really good at some of these things. And just in terms of, like, she's read outside the church, the Waldorf principles that we take. Waldorf actually is really good at homemaking because there's a rhythm to the home, and a lot of it is physical labor. A lot of it is helping around the house and creating an environment surrounding, outside your home and within your home, the home front, you know, the homestead, that everything has rhythm and everything works. And sometimes that does mean weeding the garden. Sometimes that does mean planting things. Sometimes that does mean, you know, picking up excess things or raking the leaves or whatever it may be. Because that falls into the category of homemaking. Creating the environment we want to see. And the kids need to see hard work. The kids need to see hard effort. Part of that's going to be inside the home doing the dishes, laundry, you know, folding the clothes and vacuuming and things like that. Part of that's going to be outside the home, getting in the dirt. Kids need to see that. And because Dad's gone at work a lot of the time, the mom's going to be the one showing that. So I'm a big believer that. I think women do. They need at least be able to do this, even if they're not the Ones that are doing all of the home maintenance type things. [00:26:49] Speaker C: Jack, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I was gonna. I love that answer. I was gonna add. Kind of added another question to it, which. [00:26:55] Speaker B: We covered this. [00:26:56] Speaker C: We covered this in the. In the gym podcast. Joe, as you alluded to, what do you do with the marriage counselors that, you know, mine was that basically, you know, said, hey, are you guys gonna split the. Split the house duties? Maybe not 50, 50, but, like, kind of angling the question towards the husband of, like, hey, how much are you going to be planning on helping with the dishes? You know, I was 19 when I was in marriage counseling, so I'm sure I was just like, oh, yeah, we'll split it, like, no problem. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fine. [00:27:21] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. What are your thoughts on that, Jack? I guess we'll go to you. [00:27:26] Speaker B: I was gonna say, Jack, I'm sure you saw that John Moody post the other day. He's got some good stuff. [00:27:29] Speaker A: But, yeah, I might have. The thing for me is this goes back to the man as the leader of the home. That does not. Is there when people always jump in. That doesn't mean he just gets to crack the whip. No, it means that he needs to look at what the house needs and go, okay, I'm doing this. And, you know, if. If his job to keep her at home, to keep the. The food on the table, the roof over their head or whatever has him working 80 hours a week, she's gonna be doing a lot more of that stuff. Right. So I work from home. That cuts down on commute time, that helps out on a lot of things. And when we had newborn twins and our other kids were four and two, that was a lot of work. I did more dishes than usual. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Jack, pretty soon, when you say when we had newborn twins, you're gonna have to specify the first, second time. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Yeah, right, Right. [00:28:16] Speaker C: Well. [00:28:17] Speaker A: And honestly, we're about to have newborn twins again. I'm gonna be cooking more dinners. I'm gonna be washing more dishes. I'm gonna be, like, changing diapers or whatever to a degree. And then that was the thing. As. As they grew, as they got a little more independent, they weren't just 100% attached to mom all the time. She took more of her duties back. You do what the house needs to do. And as I, as the husband, as the leader of the family, look at it. And there have been times where it's like, all right, I'm handing this back to you. This is now your job. Again, because you're capable of doing it. And it will free me up to do other things that I had put on the back burner that weren't as high on the priority list, but now I'm going to go do them. So you're going to free me up to do my work. And so there's a time and a place, but in most cases, especially most kids, most people don't have twins and four kids, four and under. Most people don't have six kids like I'm about to have. If you got the two or three, she's gonna be doing more of that stuff if he's working a full time job out of the house so that she can stay home, where this does get complicated, where she's working 40 hours, he's working 40 hours, and then you come home, it's like, well, I went to work all the week and you went to work all week, and now I've got to come home, do the dishes and the laundry and the vacuuming and the like. Yeah, that kind of messes things up. Like this is why that messes with the dynamic here. And the other thing about this is that phrase like, oh, what does your wife do? Don't ever say, and I know we're not in the habit of saying, don't ever say she doesn't work. She does. She's a homemaker. That is a job. A homemaker is a job. And so if she. This idea that people have, well, she doesn't work, it should be work. And you as the husband should help her figure out what is reasonable to expect. And at your different stage in life, if all of your kids are 10, 11, 12 years old, you're gonna be expecting them to do things, which means your wife is more free to do other stuff at that point, when all the kids are that age, I'm probably not gonna be touching that many dishes. She's not gonna be touching that many dishes. Right. Because we're gonna have the kids doing things like that and then that'll free her up to do other things. And like, that's the beauty of this. As the man, you are helping lead your family and figuring out what's needed in the moment and a lot of the time for the best of the family, it is not needed. It is better for the family that he is not doing those things. [00:30:34] Speaker C: Yeah, Jojo. [00:30:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I found that John Moody post. He was quoting another guy that said, this is what the men who vent to me about their a, I think a therapist or something who vent to me about their collapsing marriages usually say she told me she wanted an equal partner. I already earned all the money, so she really meant having me do at least half of all the health, household chores and childcare. I did it, but now she treats me worse. And what he this John Moody guy who's great follow if you're not following him. He said the only people peddling chore play, quote unquote on socials are the the ones who make money from bitter women and weak men doing so. Anyone with the least bit of knowledge about how attraction works knows that chore play is the crocodile death roll of a marriage or relationship. Brothers provide well. Be a man who is absolutely good with his word and getting things done in a timely fashion. Own your weaknesses, apologize and repent when you do wrong. But don't think for a moment domesticating yourself will save your marriage or your wife's attraction and appreciation for you. I mean, that's spot on. That's spot on. Like it is not the sexiest, sexiest thing. We've gone off on that before, you know, nothing sexier than a man who will step in and do the dishes. Like, no, actually there's a lot more sexy things. It's a man who helps the running of the home that the wife feels that she can get those things done. A lot of women are overwhelmed. Women have a million and one things going on. They got kids and they got, you know, kids have all sorts of crazy stuff going on and camps and a lot of people do daycare or VBS's or all sorts of stuff. Especially in the summer. It's difficult for a woman that doesn't absolve her from having responsibilities. The same way that there's a lot of things going on in life right now for us. I still got clients every day. I don't just get to take that off. I still have work that has to be done. And we give the pass a lot of times. And the issue is when does the pass ever end? And we see from Proverbs 31, just kind of getting back to the text. As you pointed out, Jack, this morning, noon, night and the. The. Let me also speak to that. I'm sorry, Go for it, Will. [00:32:19] Speaker C: No, you finish your thought and then I'll go. [00:32:21] Speaker B: We also just speak to that really fast. The morning time is key. It is pivotal. When you look at this Proverbs 31 woman, she's getting up before everybody to cook the meals to have the day ready. I promise I'll stop talking about my wife, but my wife And I are doing this right now where we're getting up long before the kids. We're getting up at 6am, we're reading together, we're talking, we get the day set out. She's, you know, looking and preparing the day, the to do list, the meal plan, it changes everything to get this. And the Proverbs 31 Woman is all about that. You know, she is, she is making sure she's prepped for the day, she's getting up ahead of time. It's a hard working woman. I see a lot of women, I'm going to stop giving caveats because everybody's going to think I'm a jerk anyway. I see a lot of women that sleep in till 9am and then they stay on social media until about 2pm and they go, wow, where'd the day go? I just see that a lot. And you call me a jerk, scream, it's true. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:33:12] Speaker B: And yet, because half the day is gone, you were in bed and your kids are up and you are hair brain. It's like, I'm so tired. Like you're tired because you never get alone. Time, self care, time conquer your mornings. It's such a big part of the Proverbs 31 woman. It's a big part of women in general. Sorry, go for it, Will. [00:33:27] Speaker C: Well, there is a By the way, for anybody who thinks Joe might be trying to score brownie points with his wife, she does not listen. So that I can promise you that that is not the Joe's. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Somebody pass it along to her if you want. Exactly, yeah. [00:33:38] Speaker C: Listen, if you're ever gonna listen to one, listen to this one. No, but this is the one. One of the things that I read, of course I read this section three or four times before we got on just, you know, kind of, you know, get in the headspace. One thing, one word that comes to mind, just, you know, they kind of rise to the surface is productivity. She's very productive. Look at everything she's doing. And so yes, she is a homemaker, but she's productive as a homemaker. I think there is a, you know, productive as a, as a stay at home wife. You can be a stay at home wife without being productive. And I think that's to Joe's point of like, what did you do all day? And I think for us guys in our work there are times depending on what you do, you can kind of look back at your day and go, man, how productive was I? Like, what did I really accomplish? Joe and I just kind of got Done talking about that, actually, in one of our gym episodes. I know we keep referencing that as well. Golly, I'm in podcast for anybody who doesn't know what that is for young men about, man, some of the jobs that are the most fulfilling are the ones where you can kind of turn around at the end of the day, metaphorically, and go, man, I accomplished a good bit. Well, you know, look at how productive I was in a similar sense. I mean, again, look at this Proverbs 31 section about, like, she also rises while it is yet night, to Joe's point, getting up when it's dark, like, really starting the day early, providing food. She's, you know, the field section. She. Her lamp does not go out by night, so she's staying up late being productive. She stretches out her hands to the distaff. Her hands hold the spindle. She's helping the needy. She's observing, like, so much productivity. And I think that is, you know, goes to Jack's earlier point about, yeah, don't call what your wife. What your wife does if she stays at home. You know, like, she doesn't do much. You know, she's. She, you know, doesn't work. Like, no, you know, there are some that don't, to Joe's point. But no, she works a lot. There's a lot of productivity. There's. There are things that keeping the household running is a big deal. But I think that's just what jumped off the page to me as I was reading. And Jack, I'll hand it to you next, but, like, it's just the productivity that you see from this woman. And again, one last. One last time, to Joe's point, a lot of you see it in the homeschool world, unfortunately, too, of moms that, you know, if their older kids are old enough to kind of teach themselves or teach the younger kids, they kind of back out of, you know, kind of back out of the day. They kind of do their own thing, and it's just not quite as productive that matters. And that's what you see in this text. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a job. Be good at it. And that this is a woman who's good at her job. And so there's that side of it and there's what Joe was saying about it very much undermines a man when he's going, oh, I've got to do this for. I've got to do this. I got to do that. And still doing his own things, like, it is very good for him to lead her in that way help her be better at her job. [00:36:14] Speaker C: Why do you think it kills attraction? I know Joe might be the best person to ask for this from a therapy standpoint, but, like, we've all kind of said that, like the dishes thing, the chore, chore play. That's really funny. I hadn't seen that before. That does seem to kill attraction. Even though every Church of Christ marriage seminar in the book is going to tell you the other other way around. [00:36:31] Speaker A: Why do you think that? [00:36:32] Speaker C: Right. Exactly. Do the dishes pitch in and that's what, you know, will really turns her on. Yeah, it really turns out. [00:36:37] Speaker A: It doesn't. Yeah. [00:36:38] Speaker C: Right. So why. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that's the case? [00:36:41] Speaker A: It's a respect matter. Right. Like, if so a, you're taking her purpose away from her. So she's not as happy even, although she thinks she is, because she's getting out of doing the work. But also if he's coming and saying, this is what we are doing as a house, and so you're doing this and I'm doing that, and then he goes and does his job, and then she comes and didn't do hers, and he goes, okay, well, I'll cover for you. Who's leading the family now? She is. And so that. That headship matter. This is what drives me crazy is I've mentioned this a few times in this research project. I'm reading all these Christian marriage books or thumbing through them for this. They don't talk about headship. They do not. It almost does not come up in. Almost never comes up in a lot of these. And it's like, this is what sets the tone for a happy relationship is him telling her this is how it's gonna be and him following through on that and him doing his job well and her doing her job well. That's what makes people happy. That's what makes your relationship thrive. And you've got all this stuff about communication and this, that and the other things like. But what you need to be communicating is what the family's gonna look like and, you know, like the leadership and the submission part of it. And when he's jumping in and doing her job and his. I mean, then she runs the home. And that doesn't make anybody happy. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Well, it's very much like a general, you know, you got the general who's gonna lead everybody and the lieutenants, everybody underneath. I'm not a whiz when it comes to military, but everybody underneath. Right. She's. She is right underneath him. In terms of he's going to show, he's going to set the culture of the home, he's going to, you know, help say, this is how we do things around here. She's gonna be the first one to make it, make it happen. Now, that doesn't mean that the general can't step in and do it from time to time. Sure. There's been times I've loaded the dishwasher. What we're getting at is the general like, hey, we need to share chores. We need to do these things together. This changes when a woman is working. And this is why working outside the home ruins everything. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Let's talk about that. That's where I want to go with it next. Before we get to the passage used to justify that we're giving all this advice based on the mom staying at home. Most people don't do it that way. A large number of our, like a larger than normal number of our listeners do, but not all of them do. And so there are going to be people where she's like, well, I'm working. I might be, she might be listening to this on the way into work. And so the ideal for that is like, hey, hopefully you can go home. Like, let's, let's start working towards that to where you can go home. But this dynamic in a family where they're currently not doing that. Let's talk about that for a little bit. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Again, I think it ruins the hierarchy in the home when the woman works outside the home because of this, because they are going to share chores, because how could you not? How could you, how could you ask the woman to come home and cook the meals, to clean the house, to do all the homemaking on top of the 40 hours a week she's working? And you come home and it's like, Well, I work 40 hours, I'm going to sit on the couch like, whoa, whoa. You don't get that, right? [00:39:31] Speaker C: She's working just as much. Right? [00:39:33] Speaker B: Somebody's got to do it. And so many times it falls on the woman. You do have a lot of super women out there that are getting a ton done and there's a lot of great women. So trust me, there's a lot of great women that are, you know, I'm not trying to bash all stay at home moms. There's so many good ones out there. But you do see that the super moms that people talk about are usually working outside the home and getting a ton done. It just throws off the hierarchy. It throws off the headship. It's really difficult for the man to come and take a, you know, higher position because she's doing so much of the work on top of earning some of the money. So it's not like that's a bargaining chip. I think some people use that as the bargaining chip of I earn all the money. No, but it is like that is my role and what I provide, and here's what she provides. And when that gets skewed, I really think that's difficult. So I know I'm not specifically answering your question, Jack, but I am, you know, in terms of how does this look. But just preliminarily, I think that's why it's so difficult. Will. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Hey, guys, Jack Wilke here. If you enjoy our work with podcasts like Think Deeper and Godly Young Men and our books, articles, seminars and want to support the work that we do, the best way to do so is to go to focuspress.org donate that's focuspress.org donate thanks again for listening. [00:40:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, obviously I would echo Joe there as far as how to navigate it. I mean, that's really tough. I think, to your point, Jack, if you're, if you're a husband listening to this and we're kind of operating under the premise that you're gonna have the same viewpoint as us and try to get your wife to stay at home, I understand that some people that's just, they just disagree. It's like, well, I don't really care. Okay, that's fine. But, you know, I think for the time being, if you're, if both of you are splitting the outside the home workload, I do think it's pretty within balance to say, all right, then you need to be, because then you need to be splitting the workload at home. Because what you see is the man's man, the man's main domain is conquering outside the home. The woman's main domain, According to scripture Titus 2, you know, other places is the home that's her domain. If the man is, whether it be because he has to, because he doesn't make enough money, or because they just want another, they want to take four vacations a year instead of two, you know, or they, you know, whatever it is, like, whatever reasons it is by choice, if he's sharing that outside the home domain with his wife, sharing in the responsibility, like, hey, you're going to take a load of this responsibility, then I do think it's fair, you know, for the, for the woman to say, okay. And I know some of the women choose it. And that's where the choice comes in. But like, man, if you're going to share responsibility in one area, you can't, you shouldn't, you know, there should be a understanding like, well, we're going to have to share responsibility in the other area. That's why, you know, people will say, well, can a woman do some of this Proverbs 31 type stuff? Can she work remotely? Can she, you know, you know, sell, you know, Etsy products or whatever it is. What I always say in response to that is as long as her main domain is not being affected. Same thing for the husband if his main domain is being affected in the sense of like, well, I got to have my wife start a mowing business because I'm not making enough money. He needs to reevaluate. If for the wife, if her selling Etsy products or working a nursing shift, you know, once a month or twice a month or whatever is affecting her role, you know, her domain at home, then I do think that's a problem. And so that's kind of, again, none of us would say that that's the route that you should go as. But as a man, again, if you're, I think, Jack, I'll turn it back over to you. If you're sharing responsibility of the outside the work or outside the home work, bringing home the bacon, like if you're sharing that responsibility with your wife, whether it be by choice or by, you know, you kind of have to compulsion, then I do think that needs to go the other direction. But that's just, that's not going to work out very well hardly in any circumstance. [00:43:23] Speaker A: Right. I would say to any men listening where you're in that situation, work toward making that not be the case. Do everything in your power to make it not. That's not something most people emotion side hustles. [00:43:35] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Things like that. Well, and the other thing is math has been done on when you pay for childcare, when you cover gas, when you cover wardrobe, when you cover lunch, when you cover like all the, the costs of going out to work. A lot of times that second income barely pays for itself. Like it adds a little bit. And so it's easier to make up than you think. [00:43:57] Speaker C: And can we speak to that for just a second? And I do think most women, it's not all, most women work outside the home. I know I said it tongue in cheek a second ago. For the fourth vacation and for the extra cushion in the bank. It's not because they absolutely have to, to keep food on the table. So to your point, Jack, that's like, man, whatever you got to do as the husband, if it's canceling all your subscriptions, if it's, hey, we get a four day beach trip a year and that's it. And I know that's easy for me to say. That's the links. I mean, that's how passionately all of us believe in this, is that, you know, whatever it takes. Same thing with homeschooling your kids. Like, whatever you got to do, man, you know, just get your wife the ability to stay home. But most, again, most women, especially in, you know, the. Where we're from, kind of Middle Tennessee area, most women are not working outside the home because it's like, man, if I don't, we are not gonna have food on the table or make the mortgage payment. Like, that's just not why. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Well, it's worth it. Because an excellent wife is worth more than fine jewelry. [00:44:55] Speaker A: You know, fine jewelry gets to. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what this is getting at, is when you are doing it right and when she's able to, to really come into the. Who she is, you know, the divine feminine as people talk about. Like, there's such a beauty to it and it blesses everybody in the home. And this goes to that part of like, you know, is she working outside the home? No, no more than a woman who keeps a, you know. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Well, don't. Just save that for a minute. We'll get to those arguments for a minute. I wanted to finish. I was talking to the man of like, make it happen if you can. Wanted to say for the woman, there are women who want to go home and their husbands are like, nope, you're not doing it. We need the insurance. We need whatever your job brings in, whatever that's. And he's just not going to let her do it. And that's a point of tension. That's where you get into first. Peter 3, you got to follow his lead. Even if you feel like he's being, you know, at least mildly disobedient to the word submit, you know, quietly try to win him over, do that kind of thing. Don't throw a fit, but realize, yeah. That this is detrimental and do what you can to fight the detrimental sides of it. But I mean, more than anything, I just really, for all the reasons we've said, encourage families get away from this as much as is possible. It just changes the dynamic of the house completely. And it's what this passage is getting at. So let's get to that side of it. The arguments people make that she goes and considers a field and buys it. She. Let's see, I'm looking for the verses here. It's the whole long section. [00:46:20] Speaker C: She proceeds that her merchandise is good. Verse 18. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Right, right. Okay, so there's lots of things here where she is making money. She's. Verse 16, considers a field and buys it from her earning. She plants a vineyard. So yeah, she's doing. She's doing commerce that has been twisted into. Anytime we talk about women should stay at home, this is actually the text people go to to say, see, they shouldn't. They don't need to. She was a real estate agent is literally. People will say that. And so let's answer those arguments. [00:46:53] Speaker C: Appreciate it, Jack. Just throwing it our way. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Well, no, I'm just kidding. [00:46:57] Speaker C: No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm going to refer back to something I said earlier. I will say the one that I kind of not struggle with, but the one that's kind of eyebrow raising the most for me is verse 16 about the considering the field and buying it. Like, I don't really know how that fits into, you know, the role in the home. I think most of these other ones, and this is the point I made earlier, is that everything that you see here, and I'll just kind of work my way through it, is done in the context of the home. She's not neglecting her home responsibilities, being a homemaker. And this is a point I made off air, is that we picture this woman who was leaving her home and going and doing all this stuff that didn't fly in the culture when this was written. There was no, you know, the kind of automated homemaking house, you know, machines, washing machines, dishwashers. There wasn't any of that. And so to carry out that logic, if you've got this woman that's just out wheeling and dealing for 10 hours a day, the home would be a disaster. And that would not have flown in that culture. So what we can surmise from the text is she was able to keep both things running very well. The home was. Was mastered. The home was organized. She's taking. I mean, she's providing food for her household. She's taking care of everything. And you see, again, as we brought up earlier, she's burning the candle at both ends, like she's up before dark. And her candle doesn't go out at night. I don't know. Once again, as we spoke to the start, this is kind of a character that the author is building here. But again, just to go back to my earlier answer, like, she seeks wool and flax and works willingly with her hands. She brings her food from afore, from afar, provides food for her household. That's work in the context of the home. She, you know, with the making of the clothing there. In verse 21, her household is clothed with scarlet. Why? Well, because she's making it. Her. She makes tapestry for herself. Her clothing is fine linen and purple. Like, these are things that benefit her home. And so I do think, again, that's where verse 16 is a tad bit challenging. I think we take that one and extrapolate it to. She was a businesswoman, man. She was out, you know, just absolutely, once again, cutting deals and all these things. Like, no, most of this stuff she's doing within the context of her home, but not neglecting, once again, her main domain, I think is evident here. So that'd kind of be my answer to that. Joe, I'm curious what you would have to add to that. [00:49:06] Speaker B: I think you handled. [00:49:06] Speaker C: I'll let you handle 16. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. As you said, it's a challenge. You know, it's a challenge. But I think the concept of her being aware of the land and her, you know, a woman being aware of the houses on the street type of thing and saying, hey, I think we could make this happen. I'm gonna guess she ran this one by her husband. Just. I'm just guessing on this one. The text does not say that. On the other hand, the way women were treated back then with the way that they were seen in the culture, once again, we're looking at it through the modern lens of man. She's a realtor. That's what she was doing. Like, that wasn't the way that anything worked back then, where women were naturally going to do those things. I think the other ones are, yes, a lot easier to understand of. Yeah, she's selling the stuff that she makes. She's a really good seamstress, and she happens to sell those and make some money to the traders and tradesmen, you know, and guys like that. Good for her. That's the Etsy stuff that you're talking about. That's the creative outlet that she learned to monetize. There's nothing wrong with a woman making money. It's just using the skills that she has. And if she happens to see a field, it's that, once again, she's putting it back into the home. It didn't take away from her duties at home to go do that. And that would be the problem with working outside the home for a woman is it does absolutely take away from her duties. What does she do with the money she gets from that field? Turns it around, plants a vineyard for her home. So it's the. I think the way that you look at or the emphasis is on building up the home, creating a better home for herself and for her family. And, yeah, she happens to make money to be able to do those things. And I don't think there's any problem with that. She's not neglecting any of her duties in the process. And so that's what I would say, depending on how you look at buying a field. Jack, what are your thoughts on that? [00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the productive household thing is a concept that was basically the standard for all of human history until the Industrial Revolution. And so that changes things. If he's doing his business, whatever, if he's a blacksmith, if he's a baker, if he's a whatever, he's doing that close to home, like that kind of thing. And she's helping with it. She's helping keep that going and, you know, managing things for him. And so the concept of, you know, she probably ran it by him. Maybe, maybe not maybe. Especially in that town, if it's known. Yeah, that's so and so's wife. She can go and do that. And it's part of what their household is doing together. Because as we established at the top in verse 11, the heart of her husband trusts in her. And he will have no lack of gain. He will have no lack of gain. This is not that they have separate bank accounts. And she's going and filling hers up by doing this kind of stuff. This is. She's building toward the household income, which is something that women did again in the productive household system. And so now we have this thing where everybody goes off to work. You leave home, the man has his office or whatever it may be, and she's at home. That's not really what it was like. Everybody was a businessman or an entrepreneur or a tradesman of some kind in that day. And your house could help with those things, but you also had to plant your own food. You had to do those things around the house, as we've talked about. And so she was always working at those things under the heading of what he was doing and what the household was doing in itself. That gave her some independence. It did. I mean, that helped her. You know, she could go and sell stuff and make money. That does not mean she had an office job. That does not mean she, you know, had just all of the kind of things that are Right. And so while she considers a field and buys it from her earnings, she plants a vineyard. She's bringing money into the family. She looks and goes, hey, we can do this, and I'll go plant and plant some more stuff for the family. Like, this is. That's the difference for the. The modern girl boss, yes, it contributes to their household, but it is about, she's got hers, he's got his. That's not what's going on here. [00:52:58] Speaker C: So just curiously for both of y', all, just real fast kind of application for you and your family, let's say your wife finds something that she can, like, start a business with, you know, within, you know, like the family selling bread or something. I don't know, like, something like that. First of all, you know, what are Yalls thoughts on that? You know, as the. As the husbands, like, would you be okay with that? And then to what extent. When would it not be okay? I guess is kind of like, when. When would you kind of want to put the brakes on it? From a husband's perspective, as we're looking at the Proverbs 31 woman, and she's doing all these things, to Jack's point, within the. The shared goal of the household within, you know, under the submission and headship of the husband, not going to an office job for, you know, eight hours a day. So it is different. How would you apply that with your wife in 2026 in the United States of America? Joe, what do you think? [00:53:49] Speaker B: That's a good question. If Alyssa decided to start baking things and selling them, Yeah, I think that's perfectly fine. If she decided to start making clothes or knit hats or whatever, she makes really cool dolls because she knows how to needle felt. She decided to go sell those. Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with that. Where does that become a problem? When she's no longer able to discipline the kids because her Etsy profile is blowing up where she's no longer, oh, I just wasn't able to get to dinner. I wasn't able to get to those things. And that's not because, oh, wow, you can't just take a dinner here or there. Like, no, it is taking away from her role in the domain of the home and causing it to create a rift between her and the kids or her and, you know, me and things like that. And taking her away from the thing that God tells us is going to be the most fulfilling part for her. What should be very fulfilling in homemaking and it makes it about money. A woman is not. And there's so many statistics that prove this, that a woman does not find her fulfillment in money at that point, when it's just about chasing the money and getting all of these hats out or whatever she's making on Etsy. She's lost the plot, she's lost the thing that. Which is the family. The thing that helps her the most if the money is needed. This is the difficult one is there are some women that actually make more than the man and like cannot quit because that's the case. And then others where the woman brings that in and yeah, it takes a little, it demands a little more of her time, even though she's trying to be a stay at home, but they really need the money from, from that income she gets from those things. Yeah, that absolutely challenges it. And so this is a, it's a sliding scale. It's not like you can just go, you need to stop. But it is certainly something to have that conversation to be shifting away from that if the, the money becomes more of the, the focus there and not the creative outlet that can make some money, in my opinion. Now you may look at this and go with verse 7. Verse 16 seems to show that it's really about the money. And it's like, no, I think it's really about the home and reinvesting in the home. And if that stops being the case and she's getting her Ferrari instead of going and putting it back in the home, I think we've got more problems. So I don't know. Jack, what are your thoughts? [00:55:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna go over that and yeah, it is. And that's kind of the. You guys just want dumb women who can't do anything. No, not at all. I mean that's, that is just a mischaracterization of it. It's. It's again, fit. It has to fit in that broader goal as Joe's talking about. And if you understand that, and this is also one of those, you know, the difference when you see it, you know the difference of when it is kind of about her rising star versus I'm helping my family. And you know, you see this with the Ali Beth Stuckey's, the Candace Owens or whatever, and they get criticism like, hey, shouldn't you be taking care of your family? Oh no, they're here. My husband's keeping the kids while I'm on the broadcast or whatever. Like that's not what we're, we're looking at here. You Know, and so I think it is kind of something that can get out of line. But as far as, like, if you're really trying to fit this, it is pretty clear when you kind of have the framework for what the house looked like. What do you think, Will? [00:56:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you guys answered that really well. I mean, I kind of answered my own question 20 minutes ago with that domain thing. Like, if it. As long as it doesn't affect that, then I think it's well within bounds if she can manage that. I mean, homeschooling is a really big task as well. You guys are both in that world right now. Your wives are. We're about to start here pretty soon. My oldest is about to turn five, so that's coming up. And when you talk about managing a home, not to mention educating and shaping very young children, it's a workload. And so I don't see it as incredibly feasible, you know, especially when kids are young. But I do think that's an interesting angle as well, that, you know, when kids get older, when there's less, you know, when. When the kids are helping out around the house, there's less housework. Your wife does have more free time. Like, there's more kind of, I guess, ventures that she can start, essentially. And looking at that, like, okay, we can scale it more now. I don't know. There's just so many things to consider, especially the one thing that, as much as I said earlier, that I would still stand behind that, hey, most women that work outside the home are just wanting to go on an extra vacation a year. It is true that a comfortable standard of living is harder to come by on one income these days. And that's just true with inflation and all that. The side hustles, the side businesses. Again, working together as a family is why I think shared family financial goals are so healthy and important. I think it's perfectly within bounds as long as it doesn't affect the domain. I just said a lot to say that you guys were exactly right, and I agree with both of you. We're obviously getting close to our time here. Guys, what else did you want to hit? I had one more thing that I wanted to hit before. I don't know if you want me to go and get into it before we go. [00:58:31] Speaker A: That I wanted to highlight is 26. She opens her mouth in wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. Those are important things, too, that go ahead. [00:58:41] Speaker C: There's four qualities described there in 25 and 26. Strength and honor, it says, are her clothing. And then that's exactly what I was going to point out, Jack, is strength, honor, and then wisdom and kindness, like, that's. Those are the qualities, man. That's where somebody who is living in 2026, looking at this, going, man, I'm not going to buy a field and plant a vineyard. Like, yeah, but you. What about strength, honor, you know, wisdom, kindness? Like, I love that section. So sorry to cut you off, but, like, those are the four that are listed there. [00:59:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, a big part of that is she needs to know the Word. She needs to be able to teach the kids and just have that grounding in God and be a wise and kind person. And so a closeness to Christ is a big part of this as well. And so it's. And all of these things, you can see why they're pleasing to the Lord. You can see why there are those verses that say the gentle and quiet spirit that is, well, pleasing to the Lord and things like that. That God is honored by a woman choosing to do these because she understands. What do the kids say? She understood the assignment. I think generally today women, especially due to feminism, don't understand the assignment. And these things kind of outline what that is. [00:59:50] Speaker C: You're talking like Ketangi Brown Jackson, Jack, you gotta be kidding me. [00:59:53] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. Speaking like a Supreme Court justice. Speaking of somebody doesn't speak with wisdom, but let's not go down that rabbit hole again. [01:00:00] Speaker C: Or doesn't understand her role. Yeah, sorry. [01:00:02] Speaker B: What I want to point out, though, is right in the middle of that, she smiles at the Future. In verse 25, two things come to mind with that. First off, his disposition, the smiling. There's a lot of sourpusses in the world. There's a lot of, like, man who rained on your parade, you know, women that are moody, women that allow the time of the month to take them into, you know, whoa, man, back up. You know, and the guys always make it. That's a. It's a stereotype for a reason. Because the smiling isn't there. Look, I get hormonal shifts and everything else like that, but on the. You know, by and large, I think this is a struggle for a lot of modern women. They compare themselves on social media. They're looking at somebody else's life. They're not happy to what they're seeing. Oh, my best friend just went on her fifth cruise of the year I have been on. And so the smiling, that disposition, like, there's a level of that that's really important. And the second Side of that is the future, which is where a lot of women are racked with anxiety. That's why the anti anxiety meds are so strong among women is because. And there's so many because they don't know how to manage anxiety. When she smiles at the future, she's looking forward to what's coming. She's not worried about what's coming up next. She has a positive disposition and I think that part can't be understated either. When we think about modern American society, modern American women, and how the disposition of smiling just doesn't happen near as much. Again, there's a lot of things to that. Sure. And then also the anxiety that takes them away from the future. [01:01:22] Speaker C: I love that breakdown, Joe. That's really good. The new King James says, rejoice, you shall rejoice in time to come. And it's kind of that idea of. Of joy. I kind of. I like your point about. Yeah, there's a sourness to some women, a gloom kind of a woe is me, woe is my life thing. It's like, no, there needs to be joy. She shall rejoice. You know, I guess New American Standard has smile. Like there's a. I think, you know, joy is something we've talked about before that all Christians really, you know, it's a fruit of the spirit. Like that's something all of us should exude. But I think that's a great breakdown from the. Both the future perspective and yeah, the. The rejoicing and the joy that she kind of emanates. [01:01:59] Speaker B: Here's the last thing, fellas, I want you to break down because you've asked all the questions. I'm going to ask you guys. Verse 28, something we talk about. Excuse me, we mentioned it before, but I want you guys to break down verse 28 a little bit. And the importance as it kind of. It's not at a close. Verse 31 is the close. But really the importance of verses 28 and 29 as it talks about the kids and rising up and calling her blessed. Just speak to that and why that's so important. And what a blessing. [01:02:23] Speaker A: I think about the phrase, about the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, right? The mother, the children she raises, she's shaping the future by what she does. And her kids rise up and call her blessed when they grow up and they realize, hey, this is what my mom did for me. And we stop and think about that on Mother's Day, like how much sacrifice. As we just talked about the early mornings the late nights, the cleaning up, throw up, the changing diapers, all that stuff, the food on the table, all of that. It's incredible. And the shaping that she does. And, you know, all three of us would look to our moms and be like, yeah, I wouldn't be who I am without our moms and our dads, too. But as we're talking about moms, that. That is the just reward for that, is that her kids rise up and go, man, where would I be without you? Like that. What greater reward is that, man? I saw a quote about this the other day. Like, how ridiculous this is that we have made it to where going and doing emails and spreadsheets is a higher ambition than creating human souls. Like, it's a great quote. And it's a verse like this that makes you realize that. And then the second half of it, of course, her husband praises her, as you guys said earlier, where the quarterback knows he ain't getting anywhere without his defense, without his offensive line. Like, he spreads the credit around. And the kind of guy that doesn't spread the credit around doesn't go very far. Like, realizing that the. The help you have, realizing what you have on the home front is invaluable. It's a great symbiotic relationship. [01:03:54] Speaker B: Well, I love the way. I'm sorry, you go. [01:03:57] Speaker C: You go. I was just gonna say I love. I love the way that this section culminates. So it's productivity, it's working, it's serving, and it culminates. I know it's not the exact last verse, but the culmination of it is this fruit that she has produced. And then New King James actually has that in verse 31. Give her of the fruit of her hands. Let her own works praise her in the gates. This work, this service, the culmination of it is her offspring and her husband, those that she has supported for so long and served and, you know, really, again, kept the household running. They turn around, look at her and praise her. They're like, the productivity. Like, she produces fruit that's worthy of praise from her family. And I think that is the. Again, it's just a beautiful thing to see that all this. That you see the productivity, it culminates in this. Again, I think that's where the. You know, your posterity and your kids kind of looking back at their childhood and where they are as adults, you know, how did my dad contribute this? How did my mom contribute to this? And to me, what I read in there in verse 28 is the children recognize man we would not be where we are right now without the sacrifice, the work and the excellence, the virtuousness of our mother and the husband as well, as you guys spoke to at the start of, like, the husband can't do everything that he needs to be able to do as the man, the spiritual leader without the constant support and sacrifice of the wife. And so, yeah, I think it's a beautiful way to kind of end this particular passage with the people that she has supported and served for so long, kind of turning around and saying, okay, we're going to give you the praise because your work and your fruit that you produced was worthy of praise. It was not fruitless. It was not wasting time on Instagram for hours a day. It was not in pursuit of your own pleasures. It was not, how can I go hang out my girlfriends all the time? No, it was worthy of praise. And I think that's what's so excellent about that section. [01:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it ends, the section ends in verse 31. Let her works praise her in the gates. That assumes there are works. You know, it assumes that you've, you have not been idle, that you've been doing things and providing for the home. But yeah, we do want to end as we're getting, you know, we're over time here. We do want to end just on the positivity of what you guys are talking about. We realize that some of the things we say are maybe frustrating. We've given the caveats, we've apologized, we've said, wait till next week, said all those things. But at the end of the day, look, yeah, I do think that modern women are in crisis right now. There's a lot of struggling women, There's a lot of women that would love to be great wives and moms, Excellent women, you know, an excellent wife. To your point, Will, earlier, they don't know how, you know, they don't know how. And so finding that mentor, finding somebody that you look at and go, man, she looks like the Proverbs 31 Woman, go ask her how she does it, Go ask her what she does. Go ask her, you know, how did you get to here? Or what did you do in this situation? And have somebody, sometimes that's going to be your mom or your grandma, sometimes it's going to be an elder's wife or somebody else. Try to find somebody that looks like what you're seeing in Proverbs 31 and go ask them. But women are an incredible blessing. Our wives, all three of us, are incredibly blessed. We're very, very lucky. And there are a few things that drive me nuts more than seeing, you know, I work with these people where a guy has a wife who's just an absolute gem. Maybe I don't know the wife, but I know of her. Or he's talking about, yeah, she does this, she does that, but you can tell he just doesn't thank her. He's not appreciative of what he has. And it's like, man, wake up. Wake up. This is. This is a unicorn, you know? Exactly. Do not take your wife for granted. Don't take the good women, good women in your life for granted. So as much as we might say, yeah, there's women that need to get off social media and step up, there's also a lot of great women. And if you have one of those, thank them tonight. You know, praise them, tell them how great they are and build them up. And, you know, make sure your kids are doing the same. Make sure your kids respect. Respect their mom, that they'll rise up and do time and praise him. And if you are a husband who lets your kids get away with disrespecting your, you know, your wife, their mom, absolutely not. You know, that's a big part of this as well. And so, man, there's so much in here. There's so many good things. We'd love to know your thoughts. Make sure to get it in on the deep end, as we'll cover that, you know, through our patreon. Make sure to go to focuspress.org/ to sign up there and make sure to get comments in ahead of time, which will be Wednesday night. We'd love to hear. And just on social media, whatever you got for us. But, fellas, any other thoughts? All right, well, thanks for listening. We will talk to you guys again next.