[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. Your co host Will Harb, as always, joined by Joe and Jack Wilkie. Really excited to bring you guys this episode. Today. We've got a, I'm going to call it an entertaining episode. I do think it's also going to be a fascinating episode for our listeners. A lot of our listeners, of course, are members of the Church of Christ. And typically when we do kind of Church of Christ centric episodes, people enjoy those. We got kind of a top 10 here for you. But even if you're not a member of the Church of Christ, these are things that are probably, you know, you've probably seen before if you're a churchgoer at all. Basically, what we're talking about today is don't be that guy. Church Edition 10 kind of traits, 10 behaviors, qualities, whatever you want to call it, that we're gonna just come out and say, hey, if you're one of these people, try to, try to move on past that behavior, try to mature out of that a little bit.
We've got a couple. So again, we got a top 10 here, a list of 10 that is of just qualities, traits, characteristics of don't be that person.
We've got, you know, two or three that are maybe a little bit more lighthearted, but we do have six or seven that are also pretty serious. I would say, you know, things that can really wreck a congregation, things that can split a congregation, things that just to put it frankly, a member of the Body of Christ does not really have any business portraying.
And you know, I, I think when our listeners listen to this, you know, there's probably going to be people that come to mind maybe that fit into maybe not all 10, but certainly in, in half or a little bit more of them. And so, yeah, we're, we're going to, you know, have a little bit of fun with, with the list. But, you know, some of the goofy ones, but also talk about some more serious stuff with, with some of the, the heavier hitting ones. And so, yeah. Guys, any introductory thoughts to this don't be that guy Church Edition episode?
[00:01:49] Speaker C: I just want to say, like, it don't be that is coming from a negative angle. We're not here to slam people, you know, make fun of or just dunk on anybody. It is, they're having some fun with it. It is. Here's some behaviors to avoid in the same sense that in the Bible it's, hey, don't do this, don't do that. Yeah, there's things that we shouldn't do. Some of these are stepping on our own toes. We were giving Joe the business about one of them before we started.
And we've all got. Everybody's got ways to grow. And so I don't want this to be, wow, these guys really hate the church. No, this is. This is just an a sense of, hey, these are good behaviors to avoid to be a good church member. So I just wanted to add that side of it so it's not like a really negative running down angle kind of.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: And again, as Will said, we are starting with three more on the. The fun ends. You know, dude, Perfect used to do things like this. I don't know if they still do. But the. The stereotypes, right? They always have the stereotypes.
That's kind of the nature of this is there are some stereotypes, but in reality, these are people in the church that it's like, hey, you know, we. We definitely don't want to be these. These guys. But it is intended to be just thought provoking in some ways. Yes. Starting with the fun, leading to progressively, I think a little more of the negative. And hey, make sure that you're not this. But I'm excited. I think we got a good list.
[00:03:00] Speaker C: All right.
Okay.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: The first one is the potluck specialist. The potluck specialist. And this can go two separate ways. The first way would be the guy who doesn't show up for three weeks of the month, and then the, you know, hey, fourth Sunday's potluck, and boy just coincidentally happens to show up every single time. And he's usually the first guy. The second way, he's the first guy in the line and he doesn't bring anything, but he piles his plate to the sky or he goes back for thirds before anybody has gotten their first plate. You do see this.
It is unfortunate where, yeah, some people, they are, you know, he who's first shall be last. Like, not these guys, they will go first and they will take half the food. And the worst thing is, most of the time, let's be honest, we've all been to Pollux where somebody brings like, you know, a good pizza or somebody brings the bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken or whatever. Like, and what I might call the high dollar items, the. The items, like, everybody wants one of those. Nobody really wants, like the succotash. But by the time that the preacher and everybody else goes through the line, man, it is brutal. Like, he's picking a McDonald's on the way home because there's just nothing left. Well, why is there nothing left? Because the first three guys went through the line, pile their plate a mile high. Especially with young teenage kids, they do this horribly through the line.
And they picked four of the slices of pizza. And when they brought, you know, one pizza and they're trying to make it stretch, like, don't be that guy, the potluck specialist who sabotages the entire thing. Just picking the best. Sorry.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: One more disclaimer as we start. We're also not calling out members of our own church.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:29] Speaker C: This is a passive aggressive episode.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Jimmy so and so he does this. Apollo put that on the list. No, no, it's not.
But these are years and years of church, and we've all been members of different congregations, different places over the years. But it's just a. Yeah.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Just a consideration thing. Like, you know, just make sure that you. Because you can also generally, maybe not so at bigger congregations, you also generally, at smaller congregations, kind of get an eye for like, oh, man, there might not be enough for everybody. So I'm going to, you know, maybe back off a little bit here as opposed to, oh, man, I got three plates here type of thing. So, yeah, this was definitely probably the funniest one that we had.
[00:05:03] Speaker C: Well, and also to add to it, the.
If you can't bring something, everybody in the church is understanding if they know somebody can't afford to bring it, can't make it happen. The single guy, the. The widower or something like that. Absolutely. Or the older little old lady couldn't cook something. Come on in, grab you a plate. Don't feel ashamed for that. Just consideration for sure. All right, number two. Number two, we have the co teacher. This is a person who is not officially a teacher, but from the seats, seems to think they are.
Comments most of the time are welcome. Teachers like feedback. Teachers like questions and speaking up.
Do it within the flow of the class, though. That. That is something that can kind of take away from everybody else in the class that can chop up the teacher's flow. If he's got notes he's trying to get through and he can't get through it, Try and help him stay on topic or try and stay on topic with him. I don't know. That's one of those that I haven't dealt with a lot of these, but I've been in class as a teacher. I haven't dealt with them, but I've been in classes where you kind of look like, who's actually teaching this and why is he sitting down in the back row?
Yeah, this is.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: This is something you have to be very conscious of as a teacher because generally Bible classes you have a, you know, very specific, a lot kind of hard cap as far as got to be done at this time because we got to get ready for worship or, or whatever it is with most congregations having Bible class first. And so you might have a certain level, you know, amount of material to get through. And man, there are just some people that can kind of ramble and not even just ramble, but like detract from, you know, rabbit chase. You know, you hear preachers that rabbit chase. Sometimes this, this person that we're talking, you know, wants to kind of tell their story or well, you know, I heard this and you know, kind of talks on and goes on and on and on. I've had to do that before as a teacher. It's like, you know, you always of course are kind like, yeah, thank you for the comment. Great thoughts. Okay, now back to what we were talking about before.
Yeah, I, I am one that really, when I teach, I really enjoy audience participation comments, questions. I try to throw out engaging questions and things that are going to make people think and just get people's thoughts on stuff. Unfortunately, in some congress that does open the door for this, this person, this, this co teacher. And so once again, this is just more of a self awareness thing of like if you've got a comment to share, even a story, sure, go for it. Just be mindful of the fact that you are not teaching the class here.
And I just, yeah, this is something I think a lot of people, a lot of our listeners probably like, yep, I, I know this person after like.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: 3 to 4 comments in my mind, it's kind of like, you know, for me specifically, like okay, maybe I'm talking a bit much once I hit that three comment threshold. And this is in classes like with you guys. And I co teach Romans and such, right. So I do have thoughts on these things. But once I hit almost the 3 to 4 comment threshold, like I may need to dial it back because at this point I do feel like I'm talking a lot. So it's just one of those internal things. Have it in the back of your mind of how much airtime am I taking? How much have I, have I been talking recently?
So yes, the co teacher. I'm going to get us to the next one then. Well, I'm going to let you get on onto the serious one, the last kind of goofy one. We have steps on my toes. Any, any person that has worked with me, any of my clients, anybody knows I am not great on time management. The 9:15 er.
I'm not as bad on the second one, which is the 1057 er. Will you add to that one, which is the guy that bolts for the door before the closing prayer, Right after the closing prayer, doesn't say anything to anybody, never really sticks around, doesn't know anybody. But, hey, I made it to church and took the Lord's supper. Like, yeah, but you're not part of the church.
You snuck in right at time. You left before everything ended or before, you know, right as things were wrapping up.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Probably greeted no one. Yeah, correct.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Exactly. The 9:15er is the person who perpetually is shown a plate. Now, I'm not quite that bad. I'm in the 902 or 903 or maybe, maybe 9 oh fiver. But it's a work in progress. It's a work in progress. But those who are perpetually showing up halfway through the class or like several minutes into the class and kind of disrupting things, and kids are quickly running off and running off to class and whatnot, that can be very distracting. The teacher distracting for everybody else there. When you are that late walking into class when it's already started and such.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: The distraction point is good, but I think it was Jack who made the point and I really appreciate it. Of, like, that's kind of. That is valuable time that you are missing out, you know, conversing with your church family and just kind of, you are missing out on the opportunity to, you know, greet, especially if you're at a smaller congregation or even if you're at a bigger congregation of like, let me. Let's get into our pew and then let's maybe greet some people. I know that was something my parents were pretty adamant about.
Us young people was talking to older people. And then when I was working as a. As a youth minister, I understood it was kind of part of my job to go around and greet people. But I really did enjoy that. Like, it was one of those things. There's like, you talk to this person. I need to follow up about this person's, you know, thing that they were talking about last week or whatever. So taking an opportunity. And so to me, it's just, there's that, and then there's also, I've learned this when it comes to kind of like waking up for work or waking up for this podcast or whatever, like, the more time that you give yourself, you know, ahead of time, you kind of are meant you're better mentally prepared as opposed to, like, for this podcast for Instance, if I. Oh, man, turn off the alarm, run downstairs, turn the camera on, like, that's probably not going to be as good of an episode for me because, you know, I'm still waking up. Similarly, I think about if you're kind of, you know, and just speaking from my experience, if I'm rushed to get to worship and I'm, you know, walking in a few minutes late or just right there on time, man, my mental preparation for worship or even for Bible classes, that's the first thing that we do at our congregation is just not quite as sharp, I guess, if that makes sense. And so. And that goes for anything clocking into work or whatever it is. I tend to like to have a little bit more time to mentally prepare. So, yeah, a lot of factors to this one. I know a lot of people can struggle with this one. We were just teasing Joe a little bit about it. Jack, what thoughts do you have on this one?
[00:10:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I got some criticism for this as a young preacher, and I'm glad I did. It was. It was helpful because it kind of.
To your point there, Will, the guy was kind of making the point of it showed that it appeared as though I wasn't taking it very seriously. I wasn't expecting, you know, screeching in the door with one minute left to set up my stuff, teaching my whiteboard, all that, and just like, no, get here five minutes earlier and you can get. Have that stuff ready, shake a couple hands and look like you know what you're doing. And that stuck with me. And I've really tried to do that over the years. And whether you're a preacher or the teacher or not, that. That shows how seriously you're taking it, how important it is to you. Things like that.
It's not that hard. I know discipline, like making yourself do something. But yeah, it takes some time. But when you get there, you know, I've. I've joked before that we set our kitchen stove clock 20 minutes ahead.
We're never late for anything because we always think it's 20 minutes earlier than it is. You know, like, don't look at your phone, just look at that one. Like, go off of that and you're going to be okay. Do a hack like that. Do what it takes. It helps a lot. So again, the 9:15, or don't be that guy. But another one that is very common, unfortunately, in a number of different facets is the no show. Do not be the no show.
Which one? There's different angles. Which. Which way do you guys want to go? With it first.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: I think the, the first one that comes to mind for me is the class skipper. The Bible class skipper. I know it's, it's not very in vogue in the Church of Christ to call people out for that, like, oh, it's optional. And you know, it's not, not commanded, not expected.
My take on this has grown a lot stronger over the last couple years as I've thought about the amount of hours that we have in the week, the amount of hours that we devote to numerous other things.
And we have people that can't be bothered to show up for an extra 60 minutes or in many cases 45 minutes of Bible class.
What does that say? And I'm not really about guilting people, but for most things for this I kind of am like, I'm sorry if you're devoting however many hours to work, however many hours to hobbies, entertainment, however many hours to time, however many hours to, to whatever it is that you have in your life and you know, maybe you're there and you. And you again, can't find the time to get there at nine o' clock for Bible class.
I don't know, I just, I don't look very favorably upon that. Very highly upon that. I understand it's optional. I understand that, you know, you don't necessarily see Bible Bible class in scripture, but to me it's again, a missed opportunity of being with your church family, being involved in, in discussion and in scriptural discussion with your church family.
And yeah, I just, I don't have a lot of tolerance for it, to be honest. Again, like, think about how many hours we spend doing other things, just driving to work, or again, just entertaining ourselves, watching sports, whatever it is, and we're going to give God two hours of our week. And man, don't ask for three. Sorry, I can't do three. I can only do two. Like, give me a break with that. That's that I'm not, you know, I know we've been kind of goofy and now we're getting a little bit more serious. This one really frustrates me.
I think we should expect in congregations pretty well 90 to 100% Bible class attendance. And man, you're in some cases lucky to get 50 to 60. And I just. And there's again, there's a lot of other things, you know, worship attendance as well. But to me, where this manifests the most is the guy who just cannot be bothered to show up at 9 o' clock for Bible class.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: Here's the other thing. Briefly on that Joe, before you get in here for The Bible Class 1, it's Sunday morning. Unless you're an older person. We're getting out of the house.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Really got nothing going on.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Yeah. There's nothing else. There's no other errands to run, there's anything like that. The only thing is sleep is you can't be bothered to get up a little bit earlier. That's just not an excuse. I'm sorry. So, absolutely. On the Bible Class 1 and in general, obviously Hebrews 10:25 and the assembling together is so important to not just be there because I'm supposed to be a church, but for the encouraging of one another, building one another. That's what that passage is about, is get together with fellow Christians. Don't be the no show.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: And if you love the word of God, that's the best opportunity to go there and to explain and to explore and to ask questions and to learn about the word of God. The sermon is not really where you're.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: Going to hear that.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: That's going to be a lot more application. But the Bible class hopefully is where you're digging into it. And sure, there's the exceptions of, well, my Bible class is terrible and the guy doesn't know anything. Sure, sure, whatever. Then you're there for the encouragement. You're there to help everybody else, as you guys spoke to. So I don't think there's any reason really to be skipping Bible class in any way. But this also goes to the other attendants. We spoke to the no show on.
We joked about it on the potluck, but there are people that. Is he going to be here? I don't know. I mean, I can't put him in the worship rotation, first off, because he's not super faithful. He doesn't show up. But second off, I don't know if he's going to be here. So how am I going to put him in the worship rotation if he's not going to be there?
Things like that make a difference. You want to be Mr. Reliable that they know, yes, I am going to be here. And if you're not, it's kind of like I sent a text. Everybody, they know I'm out of town. Whatever it is, be the guy that everybody can depend on in those moments. And same thing for Wednesday night. Yeah, that's tough getting the kids out. Look, I understand that that can be really difficult.
At the end of the day, you need to be there with the saints as much as you possibly can because as you said, will there's not that much time. The other one that we didn't really get into, but briefly is the event skipper, the no show.
Whether that be through a potluck or your church does an event for who knows what a summer cookout in. Oh, sorry. Not be able to make it. Like, okay, you never make it to any of the church events. Well, that's a problem. You have a Christmas party or whatever it is, a holiday party, you don't show up to those things. You don't show up to the. To the Tuesday night prayer group. You don't show up to whatever it may be. Like, you're never there. What you send to the rest of the congregation is. It doesn't really matter all that much to me. So I'll take it when I can. Thanks, guys. You know, but I'm not actually going to engage all that much. And that's discouraging for people that are around and we're not.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: You know, we're not. We've said before, we don't think you have to show up to every event. There's, you know, if you have family time, you've got all kind of stuff going on. But I think to this point, if you're kind of perpetually skipping out on stuff, it's problematic.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Why don't we worship on the Sabbath? Why did God become man? Why did God choose baptism? What are some effective ways to set up Bible studies? If you find these topics interesting at all, then you'll want to get the latest issue of the quarterly. You'll find articles on these and many more topics like, does God answer prayer? And hey, when did that congregation get there? Digital subscriptions to the quarterly are completely free, and print subscriptions cost less than a family trip to McDonald's. Just go to cobpublishing.com quarterly. That's cobcobpublishing.com quarterly. Find out why the Quarterly is called by many the best magazine in the brotherhood.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: All right, I don't think I've introduced one yet, so I'm gonna go and get us into the next one.
The critic is what we're calling it. And this is going to be the person who.
Man, when something's brought up, basically, this is the can only. The person who can only find problems and can never find a solution. You throw something out there, you know, an event or, you know, maybe a potential building improvement or evangelistic opportunity, and, man, this guy's first response. Well, no, I don't think we can do that because of XYZ or. No, you Know that wouldn't work because, you know, and I think you see this person typically in. In business situations more and like, organizations a little bit more of, you know, this again, the all problem, no solution guy. But, man, you can see this in men's meetings. You can see this in just Congregational. Congregational meetings. Congregational whatever of the guy that's. It's like, man, I've told. I was telling these guys before we started recording. Like, it makes me want to ask them, okay, then, what do you think? Because clearly all you can bring up is problems, like, what's your solution if all you can do is kind of poke holes in what everybody else is saying. So, yeah, what thoughts do you guys have on this?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: You know, we had our Bible class last night, our Wednesday night class. My dad taught on Moses last night. So it's kind of fresh on my mind. This is what the people of Israel just did for 40 years with critics of everything. Hey, there's not enough food. Hey, we don't like the kind of food you got. Hey, there's not enough water. There's not enough food in Egypt. Yeah, yeah, we can just. Let's go back. Let's turn around and go back. We don't want to go into the promised land. They're too big. Like, no solutions. No, hey, let's pray. No, let's trust God. None of those things. It's just criticism. And when somebody brings that same energy into the church, it tears a church down just as much as did Israel of man. Let's work together. We are on the same team. And. And you can just see with Moses, there was not a same team. Everything it was, hey, Moses and Aaron, you guys stink. You know, we're going to rebel against you. We need to put you down. We need to get you out of the way. Like, and I think of Hebrews 13, where it talks about, they give care for your soul, so make it a joy for them. I referenced that one a lot, but I think it's a really important one for members in your interaction with church leadership. And it is not a joy. Especially when the only time leadership hears from you is a problem. Well, this isn't going well. This isn't in the classrooms. We got this problem. Or there's a maintenance thing, or there's a, I don't like the sermon that was preached, or I don't like the event that we scheduled, or I don't like the way this was done, or I don't.
There's a time to make a criticism. There's a time to file a complaint or bring up an issue or whatever, balance it out, be a positive, encouraging force. So when you have criticism, it's taken seriously. If you're just constantly tearing down, nobody appreciates that. That. That just brings the mood of the entire building down. And every time they see you coming, you know what's going to happen? They're going to go, great, what. What's the problem now?
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Or every time there's a change needs to be made, like, well, we know where he stands. You know, it's going to be negative. It's going to be the criticism, it's going to be the. Whatever it may be.
Yeah, people. It's kind of the boy who cried. Well, like, people will start just tuning you out, going, I know where you stand. If you really want your criticisms to be heard, be a positive force. Be a joy. And then when you go to criticize, it's like, wow, he must believe strongly on this. That must really matter. Because otherwise he's, you know, he hardly ever criticized anything. He's always building up. And so the criticism matters that much more. This is an easy one for people to get into. It's also an easy way to feign engagement.
Like, yeah, I see what's going on, you know, because you can critique anything that goes down the pike, like, but that doesn't make you engaged. It doesn't mean that you're paying attention to what's going on just because you can criticize everything. But I think it's a fallback for a lot of people to just go in and start criticizing. And it's almost a way for them to feel like they want to be a part of it and they want to be heard, and that's the way they think they're going to be heard. Like, maybe check inside yourself and say, I don't need to be heard on this front. But I was going to ask you guys, what should the average church member do for the credit? Is this something that maybe you approach them and say, man, you've been pretty negative recently. I mean, is that. How is this an elder situation? They go to them. Do you just kind of let it ride? Do you tune them out? Like, what should the. We're saying, don't be that guy. But how should the church respond to somebody that is a constant critic?
[00:21:18] Speaker B: I don't think you. I personally don't think you let it ride. I think in love and a kind manner, point it out to him. Like, listen, man, you know, I really appreciate your input. At the same time, your input is Kind of always in one direction. And it really makes. And just kind of share your perspective. It just really makes it difficult for us to make any progress. Progress on anything.
Really makes it difficult for us to get excited about anything. Because you're always bringing up problems. Like, I would love to hear from your perspective, like, are just all of our ideas terrible or, you know, what is it? And, you know, obviously that's a little passive aggressive. But my point is, like, kind of share with them your perspective and maybe it. Maybe it's the elders. I don't know. That would be my answer, though, is I don't think this is where you don't want to let just one person dominate all the decisions. And I think if you let it ride, there is that potential.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It turns into a squeaky wheel situation very quickly.
I think there is a time for they come to the elder, the complaint to turn it back around and just say, look, it's always complaints. It's. There's never a positive word from you. Have you thought about that? Have you realized that you're just bringing negativity to the table? Because that maybe some people don't realize that that's kind of their default is to just. They think they're solving problems, they think they're helping or whatever else, but being a part of the solution, being a good team player, somebody who's going along with it. And, you know, maybe you don't like the playbook the coach is running. God didn't make you the coach.
Have a little respect for the role. Have a little bit of respect for the office.
And it's hard for an elder or a preacher to say that like, well, I'm the elder and you're not, or I'm the preacher and you're not. Maybe somebody else needs to say that. Maybe another wise one. Maybe if there's a retired preacher or retired elder, that's somebody who, you know, an older widowed man, or it might be a woman, that an older woman in the church could take her aside, that that kind of criticism might come from a good place from them or be received better from them. But somebody who's kind of been there, done that to say, man, this. You don't realize the drag that this is for people when you're bringing that kind of energy. So do not be the critic.
All right, the next one we have. Do we have anything else on the critic?
All right, the next one we have is the absentee voter. Now, we're not talking about the no show.
We're using this in the sense of somebody who's not involved in the city, doesn't really live there, but they own some property there, so they just send their ballot in. People that aren't involved in the work of the church, people that can't be bothered to show up on a work day, can't be bothered to volunteer for anything, teach in a class, whatever it may be. But when it's time to make a decision, they're there with a loud opinion voting. You know, if it's the men's meeting, whatever else, they're gonna kind of make their voice be heard. Like, you need to have some buy in, you need to be involved, you need to be part of the team and not just the guy who's going to come in and demand things be his way.
That is, of all of these on the list, this is one of those that's the most grading to me.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead, Joe.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: We had a situation like this where we had a few guys that one of the churches, a few guys that I don't think it ever attended a men's meeting in their life. And then something was kind of going down that they didn't like. And all three of them, two, three of them showed up and very vocal, wanted to hear the gossip, wanted to hear the skinny on what was going on and then also have their opinions on. And it's like, where have you been? You don't show up on Sunday nights, you don't show up on Wednesday nights, you don't show up on any other. And all of a sudden you show up when something's going down and yeah, very vocal, very much making their point known. And to everybody else you could just tell it was very off putting. You kind of look around the room like, and we've hardly seen these guys, hardly seen these guys at all. They've never showed up to men's meeting, they've never paid attention in the least about any of these things. Now when a big decision needs to be made and there's a little bit of gossip going around and how are we going to handle this? All of a sudden these guys are there and they're like, again, it's just incredibly off putting and there's a part of it that you just want to tell them, where have you been?
You sit down, you don't get to come in here and have any say because there's been zero buy in from you on hardly anything. We can't even get you to get up there and say a prayer from the pulpit. And you want to come in and throw some weight around. No, absolutely not. But nobody wants to be the jerk. Nobody's going to say that. But I think sometimes people need that.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, this is where I do think somebody needs. I don't know who it would be. Obviously elders have, you know, authority incarnations where they're, where there's elders but where there's not. Like I think this needs to be called out. This one is. I agree with Jack, especially a. Probably one of the more frustrating ones on the list of Listen, man, you don't, maybe you don't even show up to Bible class. Maybe you, you know, are there half the time. Maybe you, you just don't contribute in any other way. And here you are kind of running, running the men's meeting or really, really kind of standing your ground on something.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Old stances.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah, like it's, it would be very tough to do and this is not popular. But I think certain people's opinion needs to be weighted heavier than other people's opinion. And I think that is just part of the reality of the struggles that congregations, especially small ones, deal with is this, this person, this, this character, this don't be that guy, absentee voter thing. And so, yeah, I don't really have much to add. Again, this one is one that was on my mind as we were putting this list together just because, man, it's frustrating. It's, it's, it's very, it shows a lack of self awareness and for a lot of these, you know, lack of self awareness, but especially this one to say, to your point, Joe, where, where's this been? Where's this level of engagement, man, it would have been nice to see this at 9:30 during our Bible class this morning.
But so, yeah, not a lot to add there, but this is a frustrating one.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: There's a reason that the founding fathers put it for landowners to be voters, that they initially wanted landowners to be voters. I know that that's not a popular point and people would be real upset on that one.
I'm fine with it. In my opinion. Even if that was, I happen to own land. Even before this, I thought that, you know, I'd be fine giving up my vote because you know what, they're the ones with buy in. Of course the other people are going to vote money to themselves. Of course they're going to vote in a way that is not necessarily best for the nation but is best for them. I feel the same exact way about people in the church is like, of course you're going to come in with a take that benefits you and nobody else. Like there's no buy in from you. It doesn't cost you anything. You don't have any.
You know, the people that own land pay taxes on that. Like they pay the most taxes. There's buy in. And they're the ones that want to see the land prosper. They want to see their money grow and things like that. They're not just in it for bread and circuses the way that a lot of other people are on. And I'm not trying to be a jerk, but welfare and things like that. Like, go figure, you'd vote things for yourself and not what's best for the nation. I feel the same way about people in the church, which is they come in hot fired about something that matters only to them and they can't be bothered to plug in with the rest of the stuff. It's like, man, we have nine items on the agenda. You didn't care about eight of those, but you were hot fired about your one because it really mattered to you. Like show a little care on the other things that go on around this church. And realize, man, maybe you should have paid attention on item two when we were talking about needing to pressure wash the church. And you have a pressure washing business or something, you know what I mean? Like maybe pay attention to those things as well. There's a lot of layers to this, but great to my nerves anyway, you.
[00:28:23] Speaker C: Kind of introduced the idea of ownership and you want every member of the church to have some sense of ownership. Like I'm part of this, I'm proud of this, I want it to do well.
And this kind of reveals somebody's view of the church. If the church isn't the people of the church and I'm part of this group, this family that I really want to do well, if they think that they'll invest in a way that shows that they think that. If they think it's a building and they've got like some entitlement to the organization that they, they want to go in a certain direction. That drives me crazy. Like, man, if you don't care about the people, I don't. Your, your view on how things should be done does not matter at all. And the, the proof is in the pudding about how you care about the people, about how you show, about how you serve, about how you encourage, about any of those kinds of things.
And so, and I think that's why the, the elder qualifications are what they are. And it's so important you read Timothy and Titus a part of it is shutting out people like this from leadership of certain people shouldn't be to lead, to teach, whatever else. But also like, you need people who care about the people. You need shepherds. You need people who are hands on in Acts 20, what Paul was telling the elders there. And I know some of this we're talking about can be a function of men's meetings. Unfortunately, a lot of churches are resigned to men's meetings right now. But yeah, you got guys that come in and their view of participation in the church is as an organizational voter. That is what it means to them to participate in the church. Man, that's so backwards. That is just not meant to be.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So let's go ahead and get into the next one.
What is this number seven on our list? Number seven, the taker.
The taker. And somewhat related to the previous one, Jack has spent a lot of time talking about this idea of the consumer, consumer Christian, the person who doesn't really think about how they can serve or how they can contribute and just kind of, what can the church do for me? What can I get out of the. The things the church has to offer?
And this is probably the one that's going to sound most familiar to our listeners because we've talked about this before.
But yeah, this one, I would say is one that you see at a lot of congregations. It is just very much a what can the church do for me?
How can my needs be met? Never mind the, the, the needs of the, of the people in my pew or the pew ahead of me or the pew behind me. How can my needs be met? And so I firmly believe we asked the question last time, like, you know, for the last one, at what point can this be called out?
This is where I do believe a lot of elders and a lot of people in church leadership need to be a little bit more vocal about what the church is and what the church is supposed to be. Again, this is, to Jack's point about this is not a, you know, show that we put on for 90% of the congregation to partake in and just kind of observe and, and again, partake of. This is a something. This is the body of Christ, First Corinthians 12, with all the body or all the members working together. And in many cases it's not because you have a member who just wants to take and never give. So, Jack, I'll hand it to you to kind of share any additional thoughts you have. I know this has been a big passion point for you for years now, but the taker Is number seven.
[00:31:26] Speaker C: It can take a number of different forms in the consumer Christianity, but it can also be the person who's just always there looking for a financial handout. Obviously, the church, we want to help our own, we want to take care of our own.
But if you're just always there kind of looking for that, showing up with your hand out, trying to take some. Or the prayer request person, yeah, we want to pray for you. We need to pray for each other. But the person who's kind of always got something to tell you about but not there to listen. When you to the other side or if you are somebody who has those needs, that's okay.
Show up ready to serve. Show up asking other people how they're doing. Show up with a. Just the. The constant, all right, well, this is here for me. You're all kind of here for me and my needs and what I'm wanting to show up for. To Will's point, I'm sorry, Jesus didn't come to be served, but to serve. And why on earth do we think we should come to be served? And when you show up to church to be served, you do not understand who Jesus is or what he called us to do. And yeah, that's the beauty of the church, is you are going to be served, but you're going to have opportunities to serve as well. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic relationship. And if you have a parasitic relationship with the church, if it just take, take, take, you're not going to grow. It's not good for you. But you're also not blessing others in the way that it's better to give than to receive. Jesus also said, as quoted in Acts 20, and so having that mindset of man, what can I bring to the table? What can I do? We've used that analogy before, people talking about coming to church, and I didn't get my bucket filled, or I'm coming to fill my bucket, come to fill somebody else's bucket, bring some water. You know, like, don't come with an empty bucket.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: That's such a valuable point that it doesn't always have to be the giving of meals or the giving of physical things.
You can give a lot of encouragement. You can be the note writer who's just passing nice little notes to people at the church or whatever it is. Like, there are other ways to give and to not be a taker. You may be financially strapped or you need the church to help. In some ways, they're going to be a lot more likely to help you. If you are the type that is helping other people in whatever way you have, you're getting even.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Just what we talked about a few minutes ago, going around and talking to people before, worship really being a smiling face that people look forward to talking to. Like, that's very small. That really does matter still, right?
[00:33:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly it. Because. Or make sure that you're there when the doors are open, you know, and that people do see your face. Because a lot of times with the taker, I hate to say it, but like a couple times a month, whatever, and boy, when they walk in, here we go, they're going to have some. Some requests. I mean, there have been people like that that have seen that you don't see them for six weeks and they'll come in and all of a sudden, like, hey, I'm a part of this church, you know, I'm having a tough time paying my electric bill, whatever it is. Look, I'm happy to help in whatever way possible. But on the other hand, once again, it goes back to buy in. What we're saying is don't be that guy who is barely a member of the church but wants all the benefits of the church. It's like, I don't want to actually pay the dues of being part of the golf club or, you know, the membership, whatever it is, but I want all the perks. I want to come in, I want to wear the clothes and, you know, I want the cheap green fees and. And I want to hobnob with everybody else. And it's like, you didn't pay the membership fees. And there's a part of this that, yeah, you don't just get to come in, take from everybody, get all the nice stuff and don't pay any dues. Like, you have no skin in the game.
Takers, a lot of times are those that have very little skin in the game. So people are a lot more willing to give to you if you are actually plugged in, if you're actually paying attention. Anything else on the taker? We'll get to number eight. All right? Number eight, the emotional landmine. Actually, Jack, I'm going to let you. You're the one that put this down on the list. I'm going to let you kind of get into what you mean by the emotional landmine.
[00:34:55] Speaker C: We can keep this short because it's pretty straightforward of the person that everybody in the church has to walk on eggshells around you because they're afraid one wrong move, you're going to Blow up. You're going to cause a scene, you're going to kind of make people take sides or start the gossip chain or whatever the case may be. If, you know, they, they somebody sat in your seat or somebody moved something.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: In your classroom or said something in the wrong tone.
[00:35:19] Speaker C: Yeah, you took it the worst way possible every single time. Or somebody needed to correct you or offer a little bit of constructive criticism.
You, I might have to go to a new church now kind of thing.
Don't, don't be that guy. I mean, there, there's a reason there are so many one another commandments like bearing with one another, tolerating one another, forgiving one another. Maybe somebody did hurt your feelings. Forgive one another. There, there's no sense in the New Testament that you get one strike and you're out with people. And this emotional landmine approach, that's what it does.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: So I just could say, man, this one, a lot of people probably can think of somebody like this. And you know, it's the, it's the person who I, all of us also probably have a relative like this where it's like, man, you just got to really watch what you say, be careful. And nobody enjoys that. That is not enjoyable to be around the person who you really have to, you can't be yourself around. It's not like you're trying to go out and offend people, but like, man, the walking on eggshells around somebody because of, you're afraid of their reaction is just not an enjoyable spot for anybody to be in.
And this person is also typically the perpetual victim, kind of looking for ways to get offended, looking for things to kind of, to kind of gripe about. And maybe this more than any of them is the one that, that church leadership needs to really call out and put a stop to. Because this can, this really can damage a church. It can damage a congregation because maybe relationships aren't as strong as they should be. Maybe think maybe a preacher or somebody who's teaching a class is kind of holds back on part of their message because it's like, man, I just really don't want to upset that person. I don't want to, you know, you hear, we talk, we talked about that in marriages before. The husband who won't say what needs to be said. It's like, I'd just rather keep my wife happy. I don't want to have to deal with the headache. Church leaders can do that because this person is into their congregations in many cases. Like, I just would rather not deal with the headache. They're going to get offended.
And so I just. And I think a product of this is keeping. Is sermons that are kept very generic. I've railed on that before, like, you know, the lack of specificity, the lack of calling things out, you know, specifically. And so let's just keep everything ambiguous and generic. And does it apply to you? Who's to say? Maybe, maybe not. It's like, I do think that's a product of this person. It's because more specific you get with this emotional landmine person, the bigger the landmine can blow up, essentially. So, yeah, those are my thoughts on that.
[00:37:36] Speaker C: I'm going to jump the outline here and skip one. We'll come back to it in a minute. Because this goes closely with the one we had, 10th on our list, the cry bully.
That's somebody who knows this and weaponizes it, who weaponizes their emotions, who weaponizes.
You know, somebody brought this idea to us as the COVID narcissist, which. I'll let Joe talk about that a little bit more. It's, you know, more of a diagnostic kind of thing, but it's a very valuable thing. I've dealt with church members like this in the past where they just kind of knew they could throw their weight around, that everybody was scared to death of the scene that they could cause, so they just always got their way.
We didn't even have to have the conversation. It wasn't even brought up because it's like, man, this is gonna. The. The emotional toll on everybody, on the whole church of crossing these people is so heavy. Or the preacher they'll control. They've got the preacher under their thumb because you know what, we're going to just bury you under just headache after headache of things to deal with. And so we're calling that the Cry bully is the next one on our list.
Joe, get into the COVID narcissist side and kind of how that more technical explanation helps us here.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's more on the pastor. So, like, I just looked it up. I got my dsm. I didn't. Didn't pull up the dsm actual definition of narcissism, because there's multiple types of narcissism in there. There is the. Obviously the overt narcissist who's very much maybe on the 10th on this list, kind of in a way, very aggressive in how they portray, or they're outwardly grandiose in some ways, have to be the life of the party, things like that. But I just looked up if you Google covert narcissism, as you know, of course, this is my training coming into play by Googling things. But the idea is just that you are sensitive to criticism, but one of the keys that you see is they know how to play the game like you talked about, Jack. So they will praise you a little bit, they'll give you a little bit, but they will weaponize that against you. There's always an angle with everything that they do. There's an angle and very passive aggressive in how they do it. So it's like, man, we just love having you as our preacher. You'll see this, you just love having you as our preacher. And that it's like, hey, that feels really nice. They're going to use that against you. They're going to bring that back in and they're going to make sure that, hey, we did say we loved you. And you know, we really. One of the things we love about you is when you go out of your way to help in xyz, which is, you know, it's very manipulative in how they do it. So passive aggressive manipulation is kind of a key to covert narcissism. And Jack, as you said, it's the.
They're not ignorant of it. They may feign ignorance of, oh, wow, I didn't know I was doing that. That's not true. It was a manipulative tactic for you to be able to manipulate those in the church to do what you want them to do. You see this a lot with members again, to the eldership, to the preachers, things like that, where they will come in and they will throw their weight around without throwing their weight around. They're never going to just own up to it immediately and go, hey, this is what I'm looking for.
They're always going to manipulate things in some way. Massage it a little bit. Passive aggressive remark here, manipulative remark there.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: Is it, is it true that if you try to call them out on it, they'll kind of like back, Whoa, whoa. I'm not saying, you know, kind of get, you know, very past the buck.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: That's part of the manipulation is they hide behind it. And so anything, it's like nailing jello to the wall if, if you call them out on it. Whoa, whoa, preacher, hey, I already told you I love you. You know, I appreciate you so much. I'm just letting you know.
See, that's how they do it. So they'll throw it out there, the compliment, and that really protects them. And they can hide behind that and a lot of times they do have a low sense. Like the narcissism we like to think is everybody has a super high sense of self. Most of the time it's actually driven by low self esteem and they want everybody else's validation and they're afraid of criticism. And so they will do whatever it takes to not be criticized, which is putting in these little hedging remarks. So if you do go to criticism, well, I'm not saying that or hey, I didn't mean it that way. And they can always hide behind it.
It's really, really dangerous. And I do think that the church, unfortunately, there are plenty of these in the Church of Christ, you know, plenty of these just in society in general. But people that are not willing to stand up and say, this is what I believe, and here's why I think you're wrong, they're just going to take three weeks and try to manipulate you into seeing why you're wrong. And then usually it ends up like, if you do call them consistently on it, it ends up exploding. And then they play the victim role and they fall back on, I'm the victim. You know, you did this against me. You hurt me. You took it wrong. You wouldn't give me a chance to speak, to say, say what I needed to say. And so they always stay in the shadows and in the victim role and you can't nail them down and say, no, but you did this. Then last thing I'll say is a lot of times they get other people on their side and so they will try to get the posse against you. Like, can you believe he did this? And I was just trying to say xyz and he just took can you believe this? And gossip starts. And now you have seven people coming to you as the preacher or whatever, trying to get you fired because you're such a jerk. And in reality, you didn't do any of that. So it's, it's. This might be one of the most. And again, it's kind of what kicked off the episode. But this might be one of the most destructive ones on our list because it's almost impossible to call out. They will almost always skirt around it. And what I found on narcissists, I hate to say it, I basically refuse to work with them in my private practice. There are very few things you can do to a narcissist other than bring them to rock bottom. And even then, most of the time they take the victim road. I'm the victim. So it's a tough one.
[00:42:53] Speaker C: Yeah. So this is, we had the episode on feminized church leadership a year or two ago. This is one of the ways that happens is the feminized church leadership is afraid of conflict. Well, this covert narcissist is going to push their way. They're going to be stabbing in the back, they're going to be needling the entire time. And the minute somebody turns around and says stop stabbing me.
Wow. Wow. You just raised your voice. Wow. You just look at what you did.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: How dare you.
[00:43:16] Speaker C: How dare you. And now you're the bad guy because you created a conflict. And I've seen this happen so many times. Everybody is so conflict averse. It's. What do we have to do to make this stop? Well, it's the mean guy who brought up. So we need to go back to letting them passive aggressively pull all the strings because open conflict is so anathema. That's something we just can't do. So we've got to shut this down. This is how churches are steered. We talk about so many times the women lead or an elder's wife or somebody leads the church from behind.
It's through this, it's through the pulling the strings, it's through.
And so what you've got to do with a passive aggressive person is make them be aggressive, make them show their face, make them show how much it means to them. And I left a church because this couple was doing this to me non stop trying, just driving me, steering me, making my life ridiculous. My wife, they sent my wife home in tears from church a couple times. Just how manipulative they were. Well, the rest of the church didn't see it. They were pulling these strings behind the scenes and I didn't want to risk the blow up with them. Well, about a year after I left they finally did and I mean the guy was screaming at the, the pre, the replacement preacher and other, the men's meeting. They all saw it and you know, it finally came out. But it was after years of them steering the church this way. This is a really dangerous one. I'm. Before we move on, I want to recommend Joe Rigney's book Leadership and Emotional Sabotage. It's all about how this goes down and it's way. The way churches are steered into false doctrine, into not confronting sin, all kinds of bad stuff. The other one to finish out the list. And this is we're going to do this fairly short because it's pretty straightforward. We just talked about the crybully. It's the bully elders are told by Peter do not lord it over. And I believe it's first Peter 4. That's somebody who just lords it over and got to get their way. They come in, they're just gonna run everybody over non stop. That's just not a way to be a part of it.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: Not pass aggressively, but aggressively.
It's not manipulative. It's just outwardly aggressive coming in and making, throwing their weight around.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think what I would say for, for all of these.
So just to kind of, as we kind of wrap up our thoughts here is our hope and prayer. Obviously, again, some of this episode was for fun, some of it was a lot more serious. Our hope and prayer is that, you know, these types of behaviors get whittled down so that the church can be stronger.
Again. You know, the 9:15 or Pollock specialist is a bit of a, you know, light hearted. Some of these other ones, man, the church would be stronger if we could whittle down some of this behavior. The church would be stronger if we didn't have as many people who were skipping Bible class. The church would be stronger if we didn't have as many people who are all problem, no solution. If we didn't have as many people who, man, make one wrong move and the, the emotional landmine blows up. Like I think that was kind of our goal with this episode and something that if we were just, you know, having a conversation with our listeners, like that's what we're wanting to get across is man, this could make for some stronger congregations. And maybe all of our listeners, maybe none of them fall into any of these categories. If that's the case, then it's a matter for them of dealing with this. Joe, I think you asked a question about that earlier. How do I deal with this? And it's not to say it's a piece of cake. It's certainly not going to be easy. You're going to have people that get really upset, offended, whatever it is. Just keep in mind. That's what I wanted to wrap with, is just keep in mind the goal, the objective here is for stronger congregations, closer relationships and every single one of these more solutions, serious ones. The no show, the critic, the absentee voter, the taker, the emotional landmine, the bully and the cry bully. Every single one of these inhibits churches getting closer and churches growing stronger. So that to me is the ultimate takeaway from this.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: I mean, it's a really, really good rap. I don't have too much more to say. It was, yeah, this is just kind of born out of once Again, not a hey, everybody at our congregation, you know, needs listens. Not at all. These are just things that we've seen.
We visited, attended and visited lots and lots and lots of congregations between three of us. Just things we picked up over the years and things that we hear from listeners like yourselves that we know that it's tough out there. We know that there are people. And you may be one of these. Again, I dabble in, you know, one of these for sure, but things to think about, things to pray about, things to work on and to say, you know, I don't want to be that. I want to be the strongest member of the congregation that we can be. If everybody had the idea of being the strongest, rather than, well, I'm just one of the members, like, seek to be the strongest. It's kind of the idea of every man should be striving to be like an elder. Doesn't mean you're striving for the. To. To be. To be an elder. It means you should be striving to be like that man. The same concept here. We're just striving to be the very best we can be in the congregation. These things will pull us back, so I appreciate it. Will's comments wrap up Jack Any other. Any other thought?
[00:47:52] Speaker C: Shouldn't church be more. If you've ever driven home from a Sunday worship with that question on your heart and on your mind, Church Reset may be the book for you. In it, I explore how the church was meant to be a family carrying out a mission, and instead it has become a business aimed at attracting consumers and therefore lacks the power that God intended for it to have. Pick up a copy of Church reset
[email protected] or on Amazon.
All right, let's get to this week's. Think Fast. There's been a lot going on. We were trying to decide what to talk about, the LA riots. There's just not much of an interesting angle. So we want to talk about Simone Biles and Riley Gaines, the controversy over male athletes and female sports. But there's an interesting angle on this one. It went a little different direction than many of these things have. Will, did you have that pulled up?
[00:48:39] Speaker B: I do, yeah. So originally she tweeted on.
It was last Friday, it was the sixth. Tweeted in response to Riley Gaines, called her a bully.
All those things. Well, yesterday, I'm sorry, not yesterday. Two days ago, she.
So the context of this is she was getting absolutely dragged on social media for about three or four days straight. Like even, even people on the Left, of course, people on the right were just destroying her.
She was not a lot of positive. Obviously there were some virtue signalers that were very, oh, good for Simone for standing up, but a lot of people were just, you know, she was not looked highly favorably upon.
So lo and behold, at 11:12am two days ago, she says, I wanted to follow up for my last tweets. I've always believed competitive equity and inclusivity are both essential in sport. The current system doesn't adequately balance these important principles, which often leads to frustration and heated exchanges. And it didn't help for me to get personal with Riley, which I apologize for.
She continues to go on about kind of what specifically her objection was, but kind of a, not a full retraction, but pretty significant. Like she came out guns a blazing last Friday at Riley Gaines, calling her a bully. And there was a follow up tweet about you basically pick on somebody your own size type of thing. And to read the apology tweet that was very much kind of like reserved and scaled back quite a bit. You could very much get the sense she read the tea leaves a little bit more, read the room a little bit, and realized I am not exactly definitely getting praised and worshiped kind of as much as I thought I was going to be. And so, yeah, Jack, I don't know if you had a question in there, but I think there's a couple interesting angles to this. The first one that I'll bring up is just kind of the, the irony of. So Simone Biles was somebody who stood up against Larry Nasser, was the, I think the gymnast gymnastics coach, the US Gymnastics coach who apparently sexually abused a lot, you know, a lot of those girls in 2017. It all kind of came out. Simone was one of the ones that testified against him. And rightly so. He did some just horrific things. But the irony of that. But yet Simone Biles is perfectly fine with a biological male being in a woman's locker room, exposing himself, you know, to her and, you know, like, it just, it, it doesn't line up logically. Those two things don't make sense. To be kind of the face of this, you know, action against Larry Nasser, again, rightly so, I'm not at all defending him, but at the same time, I'm also not going to defend a male competing in women's sports. And yet Simone Biles was. And so that a lot of people really, of course that thought is not original to me. A lot of people hit at that irony.
But that was one side. And then, Jack, I Think what you were more so getting at is like, how if this was 10 years ago, Simone would have gotten worshiped and praised for a week straight, essentially by the media, and she just wasn't this time. So, yeah, those are kind of the two angles. Joe, what thoughts do you have on this?
[00:51:27] Speaker A: No, I was interested, listening. I wasn't as plugged into this. I knew that it happened, but I hadn't read the tweets, anything like that.
I was very interested. We already talked about this, I think, last week.
The tide turning. Jack's article, Great article on it. This is another indication that the tide is actually turning, in my opinion. Things are changing the Internet, and you can make a case that this is just on X, that there's more conservatives on there now or whatever else, but I don't think so. I think people are genuinely sick of this. Of like, hey, stop. As we talked about, I think the trans movement is part of what caused this, this whole LGBTQ movement to jump the shark. To get to the point where people are just not with it anymore, is you really started picking on young girls, bringing males into young girls, sports. Like, you don't do that.
There's a lot of dads out there that, you know, hey, do what you want to do in the privacy of your own room. You don't do that. That's where the buck stops for them, is you're not about to bring a boy onto the softball field and beat my little girl type of thing.
So to me, I think that's an interesting angle. What you said on the hypocrisy there. All of this is formed in hypocrisy. All of the entire.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: It's just illogical. Yeah.
[00:52:36] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: I mean, there's. So. I don't have a ton more to add from that. Jack, what are your thoughts?
[00:52:40] Speaker C: The angle that's most interesting to me is as apologies, as retractions, as change of heart start to happen, and it's blowing with the wind. I don't think Simone Biles suddenly got religion here, but it is as people do come to this side, we're gonna have to start accepting that. You know, I think it's very fair to say. Okay, you just showed you have really bad judgment and need to sit on the sidelines, keep, you know, lay low for a while. But we also need to have a path toward. Yeah, we want you on our side. Not. Nope, stay over there. You are forever, you know, cursed and forgotten because you were on the bad side of this issue.
It's. Yeah, that was pretty crazy. Give that up. Come over here.
And so as.
As the right side of history, I'm going to steal their terminology. As history is coming back our direction, as it should, as it does, because God created history.
I think we need to think through how to welcome people back into the fold, how to make a path toward reconciliation, how to say, yeah, you got duped.
You know that because of that, you don't get to be a spokesman for anything anytime soon. But, yeah, we're glad to have you.
[00:53:50] Speaker A: And welcome, welcome to our side.
[00:53:51] Speaker C: When trans people start detransitioning and want to come back to church, that's going to be really weird. That's going to be a challenge. That's going to be something uncomfortable in the church. We're going to have to find ways to handle that. But we need to be ready to do it because I think it's almost like the fog is lifting. The veil is coming off of people. You know, the blindfold is coming off of people.
And, you know, I'm glad to see it. But we do need to figure out what is reconciliation and getting back on the right side look like and how welcoming and all those things.
[00:54:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't have a lot to add there.
[00:54:22] Speaker C: All right, well, we're gonna wrap right there. That's our thing fast, as always. I'm doing the double close here. The podcast, if you haven't. If you're catching the thing fast, the podcast is about 10 church. Don't be that guy. Church member edition. 10 church members you don't want to be. So look out for that on Monday if you're catching this at the end of the podcast. Thanks for tuning in as always. Join us for the Deep End on Focus, where you get the deep end. Devos, sermon casts, Bible class, studies, things like that. Going up all the time. So focuspress.org/ and we will talk to you guys on the next one.
