Does God Choose Who He Saves?

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome into the Think Deeper podcast, presented by Focus Press. I'm your co host, Will Harab, joined as always by Jack and Joe Wilkie. Coming to you live on a very cold day. We're supposed to get some snow here coming up. If you're in the south, these two guys, being from Colorado, Snow is not a very big deal to them. They saw it all time here down in the south. People freak out about it. It's like the most exciting thing in the world. School shut down, all those things. And so we're getting to kind of enjoy that. We'll see how bad it actually is. But guys, we've got an utterly fascinating episode to get to today. Before we do real quick notes with it being the start of a new year, we understand that a lot of congregations are trying to get their seminars planned, their gospel meetings planned for the year. And we just wanted to remind you of the seminars that we do offer, quite a few. My dad, Brad Harib's got several that he continues to do. Truth about origins, things like that, creation, evolution, stuff from the family and the home. And then Jack and Joe and myself all have our individual, all of them are listed on our website, focuspress.org, under the about section if you want to take a look at some of the specifics. But for the purposes of this podcast, we do offer the Think Deeper podcast seminar, which is the three of us will come out to your congregation, talk a lot about the things that we cover in the podcast, masculinity, femininity, how the church can improve in various ways, and discipling and things like that that we would love to come to your congregation to do. And then Joe and myself have the godly young men podcast seminar. We've got one coming up in a couple of months that we're super excited about. We'd love to come to your congregation, talk to your young men, talk to all your men, to not just be the young men. And so I wanted to to remind everybody of that again as the year is starting, about the seminars that we do offer. But guys, enough of that. Let's get into our episode for today, which is going to be, again, utterly fascinating. We're talking about Calvinism with this episode. We're talking about predestination, all the things that come with Calvinism. And it's one of those things that I think a lot of christians have questions about. A lot of christians kind of struggle maybe with some of the because these are tough questions. There's a lot of the things that Calvinism, the beliefs that surround Calvinism have been around for a long time. And so we're going to cover the five points. We're going to cover Tulip, the five points of Calvinism, and we're going to do, to the best of our ability, address why biblically we can have answers to these things and what are the answers that we need to have. But Jack, I'll go ahead and turn it over to you as we dive into this episode. Go ahead and get us into where we're going to head with this episode and why we felt this was necessary to cover. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah, there's so much of this that's out there in the religious world that the more you get into Bible study, the more you see this stuff come up. And the things that maybe you get converted by understanding the basics of the Bible are great. But the more you study, you realize there are some serious challenges that really push us. It's tough to get these things right, and we want to get them right. And so as we look at Calvinism, it has that name because of John Calvin kind of was the guy in the Reformation as the, you know, exploded and went all the directions it did. He was the guy driving a lot of these doctrines. However, he didn't just invent them. I think there's sometimes that idea out there that he just kind of came up with all this and wrote it down. A lot of it can be found in Augustine, 400, 500 AD, other church fathers going back a few hundred years after the apostles. So it has a long history in Christianity. Things like original sin that you're born a sinner, things like perseverance of the saints, which kind of gets twisted into once saved, always saved. Things that you really hear out there in the culture. And the other thing is, these doctrines not believing, these are some of the things that make people in the denominational world look at us in the churches of Christ as heretics as you don't really believe the gospel because you don't understand these things, you don't believe in original sin, you don't believe in a lot of these things. And so you'll hear the name Calvin. John Calvin was in Geneva, Switzerland, again, part of the Protestant Reformation. You will hear that his opposite was Jacob Arminius and Armenianism, not Armenianism. Sometimes you hear people say that, no, Armenians are people from Armenia. Armenians are people who believe along what Armenia is taught. We agree with him more than Calvin, for sure, but not fully. He still believed in some level of original sin and some other things that we wouldn't fully agree on. So we're not really either of those things. There was a quiz going around the Internet the other day on kind of where are you on the calvinist armenian spectrum? I took it, sent it to the guy, said, you should take this. Getting ready for the episode. It labeled me 95% Armenian. I think Joe was 90 and will. Yeah, 91. Will was 90% Lutheran. So we've got our resident Lutheran. [00:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Teased him. We're going to have to get him the little floppy hat, all that jazz. [00:04:59] Speaker A: At least that wasn't Billy Graham, though. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:02] Speaker C: Okay. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it gave a comparable for this is who you're most like. And will got Luther and Joe, and I got Billy Graham. Unfortunately. [00:05:12] Speaker A: I was 92% Armenian, so not. [00:05:15] Speaker C: What they meant was handsome, powerful speaker. I mean, that's pretty much mainly. You're mainly Billy Graham. [00:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's all right. [00:05:23] Speaker C: I'll put up with it. Put up with it. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Okay. So on that note, I'm not going to make the next Billy Graham joke. We'll just move on, probably. [00:05:32] Speaker C: Good. [00:05:33] Speaker B: I want to add one more thing before I pass it over to Joe here for a second. There's a tendency, we talk so much on this podcast about the pendulum thing. You look at Calvinism, you're like, all right, that's wrong. So the opposite must be right. Not necessarily. There's some ideas here that we need to grapple with scripturally, that we do think it's wrong, but that it doesn't just automatically mean, well, we'll go the other direction. Because that sets you up for failure when your doctrine is not based on what you found in the Bible, but just reacting to what somebody else found. So I'll add that as well. But Joe, what do you have to add to the intro here? [00:06:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I would just say kind of words to that effect, which know we're going to respect this. I don't agree with them. Nobody here on this podcast agrees with them. At the same time, I cannot stand the gotcha. Hey, have they considered this verse? Yes, they have. They can probably quote it in Greek, too. So let's actually take this and be legitimate about it in the way that we handle this. We're not just going to got you verse here. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Essentially. It's not as simple as a lot of people want to make it out to be. This is a very convoluted topic. This is something that this has caused theologians problems to deal with this for thousands of years and for people to like. You're saying, joe, just take. Well, this one verse clearly just solves the issue. No, it doesn't, as Joe said, some of the most brilliant theologians in the world, some of the people with the deepest level of Bible knowledge that I've ever personally studied, also believe Calvinism. And that doesn't make them infallible. That doesn't mean that they couldn't possibly be wrong about this, but it does mean we should treat this subject with the weight and the respect, like you said, joe, that it deserves to not just say, well, here's the one verse that debunks Calvinism, not the way it works. And so there are a lot of things that we're going to get to with this episode. Jack, do you want to go ahead and get into the monarchism versus the synergism thing before we kind of really dive into the five points that the tulip. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Right. So it's based on the greek word aragon, is just work. And so whose work is it? Mono is one sin is together, two things coming together. So it's all the work of God or it's God's work with our work. And so there's some other fancy $5 words that come up in this conversation, but we'll just talk about those. But it's in our salvation. Does God do all of the work? And there's terms, again, imputed righteousness versus infused righteousness of, you were totally dead in your sins and God just did the whole thing. He made you a Christian, is making you into a good person, is making you stop sinning, is making you 100% him, right. It's all on him. Or the synergism is trust and obey. Like you're kind of bringing your faith to God and saying, I know this is not enough. I need you to make me righteous and all that, but you chose to do it essentially, that you and God. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Are kind of working together to bring about your salvation. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Right? [00:08:16] Speaker C: Synergy. Yeah, synergy. [00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So Rc sproul, probably the preeminent calvinist kind of voice of the last hundred years, had a thing. I was reading on this where he was talking about you were dead in your trespasses and sins and monarchism. What this all means is you were a dead body at the bottom of the ocean. God went, scraped you up off the bottom of the ocean, pulled you up above shore, breathed life into you, gave you CPR, whatever. I don't remember how. Full the illustration. Well, not CPR. You were dead. Like he brought you to life and all that, and so you had nothing to do with the salvation at all. Like he chose you as a dead person and made you an alive person. Versus we believe that it's God's work in baptism. It's God's work cleansing us of our sins. But you hear the gospel call and you respond to it, they would say your response is just God making you respond to it. [00:09:10] Speaker A: I was going to ask you guys where you fall on that scale, because to me it sounds bad to say that you and God, or that me and God work together to get to our salvation, because obviously we do believe Ephesians two eight. It's not of our works. There's literally nothing we could do. We were dead in our sins. That part is true. But where, to me, the monarchistic view kind of falls apart. Where I struggle with lining up 100% with that is like, as Jack said, there is still some level of responsibility that you have to decide, I'm going to go this route. I'm going to accept the gift of grace. God extends it, God offers it. I don't know. Am I off on that? The view that I do feel as though there is some human involvement in. I'm going to decide now. Of course, I guess the classic monologist would say that God is the one who decided that you were going to do that. But in my view, me responding to the gift of salvation, me choosing to go down into the waters of baptism, is where that synergism, I guess, would come in of. Yeah, God is the one that is doing the work of bringing me salvation, but I have to accept it. Does that make sense? [00:10:14] Speaker C: Well, to use his illustration, I would say we're not at the bottom of the sea. We are treading water and we don't know how to swim. So we are going down and we will drown. We will die if we don't get help. He throws out the life raft. There's a life vest. We do have to swim to it. It is completely by him. He saves us. It's all on his work. There is no wow, I saved myself. No, you didn't. He threw out the life vest. But you do have to reach out and grab that life vest, put it on and let him pull you into the boat so as to save you. And so there has to be some level of I am drowning, a recognition that I'm drowning. I think that's partly us, and we're. We can get more into this a little bit later, but there has to be a recognition of you are drowning. There also has to be the willingness to reach out and accept what God has freely given you, which is grace. So to me, if you never reach out and get it. And God does all the work for you, which is monarchism. Again, we're getting into Calvinism. We may be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit here, but, yeah, that's the way I would look at it. Using reworking his illustration, we're not at the bottom of the sea. We are fighting and we are going to drown. We don't know how to swim, but he's freely offering it to us. We just have to reach out and take it. Jack, what are your thoughts on that? [00:11:24] Speaker B: Well, that's where they have the phrase regeneration precedes faith. Essentially that inside of you before the thing that makes you able to go, yeah, I think I should go get baptized. I think I should listen to God and read the Bible and become a Christian. [00:11:36] Speaker C: Right? [00:11:37] Speaker B: You don't have the ability to make that choice unless he turns the switch on inside of you and so that he calls you to that. All right, so to flip the swimming and drowning illustration, remember as like ten years ago now, where you two, in conjunction with Apple, gave everybody their free album and it was a disaster. Everybody. People went really mad about it. Like, I don't listen to you, too. Why is this on my phone? I didn't buy this. Where did this come from? And after the fact, Bono, the lead singer of you two, said, that's not what we meant to do. We didn't mean to put it on your phone. We thought the deal with Apple was they're going to make it free and if you want it, go get it. And so he used the illustration of like, we thought we were leaving milk on your front porch. We didn't realize we were breaking into your house and putting it in your fridge. And so this is kind know, God giving you salvation is like, here, here, you're going to have this whether you want it or not, which is one of these points of Calvinism we're going to get at, versus he put it there for you, kind of the life raft you're talking about of like, he set it out and said, here, you can have this. Now, again, that album, if they had put it in the iTunes store and you went and downloaded it and enjoyed it for free, nobody would say you paid for that. You still got it for free, even though you had to click the button to download it. Calling that a work is, to me, absurd when you do something that simple, when you hit a button, well, it's in the same sense of like, oh, of course I'll become a Christian. I'll go get baptized into the waters of baptism. Oh, you just did a work. [00:13:00] Speaker C: Right? [00:13:00] Speaker A: They call it a work. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah. That was you trying to earn your. No, it wasn't. It was accepting a free gift. And when you accept a gift, you do have to reach out and grab it. It's still a gift. That doesn't make it a less of a gift if you have to download it, if you have to grab it, whatever else. And so that monarchism versus synergism thing again, the pendulum thing, you have to be very careful. Like, I think you guys said. It sounds really weird to be like, well, yeah, it's our works plus God's works. No, it's all Christ doing the salvation. It's just not a work. We have to define a work is one of the biggest disputes in all of this. [00:13:36] Speaker C: This is why they call us heretics. They don't understand our view of it. They look at us as, I think it's plagiarian. We'll get into this, but plagiarianism, right. Like, we have our works and then God will make up the rest of the way. And so we'll kind of go 50%. He'll go the other 50%. That's not at all what we believe. Maybe some people in church kind of believe that. [00:13:54] Speaker B: I think that's one of the reasons why we're doing this, is we want to correct the pendulum thing that some people got wrong. [00:13:59] Speaker C: Yes, the works base. But yeah, I think that's why we're called heretics by so many people. There is. They don't understand when we do view it as it is a complete work of God in us at the same time. And Jack, you mentioned, again, I'm trying not to jump ahead too much, but you did mention that specific point of. Okay, did God? So let's use my water illustration. You have to look up and see that you're drowning. Now they would say, what causes you to look up and see you're drowning? That is a work of God in your life. So the work of God starts before. And I do think that he had biblical foundation, which is what John 13 talking about the work of the spirit of, like, he convicts the world concerning sin and judgment. Maybe 14. It could be off there on a chat. [00:14:36] Speaker B: No, but either way, it's either of those. It's 15 or 16. [00:14:38] Speaker C: Is it one of those that Jesus. [00:14:41] Speaker B: I'll find it. You keep talking. [00:14:43] Speaker C: Yes, it gets all jumbled for me there. But either way, what he's talking about with the spirit, it's not 15. That's the true vine sorry. [00:14:52] Speaker B: When he comes, he'll convict the world concerning sin, righteousness. [00:14:56] Speaker C: I was way off. Okay? But either way, he's convicting the world. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Study more, Joe. [00:15:00] Speaker B: That's right. [00:15:01] Speaker C: I really should spot on it. But he's convicting the world the way John used the world. Right. Those are those that aren't in Christ. He is convicting them, bringing them around. So it is a work of God to kind of pull our hearts unto him. But I would say how does he do this is kind of the question and how many people come to God after they've hit rock bottom? Why do they do that? Why did God decide to let them hit rock bottom from a calvinist? I'd love to ask a calvinist this before he then snatched them up. Or could it be that the circumstances of hitting rock bottom in their life is what woke them up to God? Is what caused them to not rely on themselves but rely on God? And to me that's a very big distinction there of like God put it in your heart to want him, or God allowed the circumstances in your life to cause you to want him to wake up and go, whoa, I'm drowning. I need a life raft. I need a life vest. It is a work of God in your life by bringing things around. But this is going to get us into kind of the Arminius of there is a resistible grace versus irresistible grace. So we can get into that discussion later. But I think that's a needed part of this of like when does God's work start from this monarchism synergism? We realize once we accept the gift, that's all on God. But did he work in our lives before that? [00:16:14] Speaker A: A key word that is used in this discussion is the idea of regeneration, essentially the new birth. And the monarchist believes that essentially that regeneration portion, again, when the new birth, it would tie into Jack's analogy, not Jack's, sorry, Sproul's analogy that Jack brought up of God is the one who brings you up out of the ocean and he's giving you new life right there on the shore. To them, that's regeneration. And that was all God. And then everything from that point on is when justification takes place. Well, obviously we believe that the regeneration takes place when at baptism, which prior to baptism, again, some kind of human agency has to be involved. And so I think a lot of the, I guess, discussion, disagreement around that for us versus the people who would subscribe to monarchism or full calvinism or whatever is when does that regeneration take place? When does that quote unquote new birth happen because to them, and I read a quote actually, that talked about the fact that regeneration takes place before justification. I don't think we see it that way according to scripture. And so that, to me, is where the fundamental disagreement lies, is that regeneration for us takes place and for us, when I say, based on our understanding of scripture, of the New Testament, regeneration takes place at baptism, as does justification. We're justified by the blood of Christ in the waters of baptism, which prior to that was an offering of God. God is the one who literally does the regenerating, the justifying through Christ's blood in the waters of baptism. But I still had to decide to come to the waters of baptism. But again, their definition of regeneration is basically the Holy Spirit working upon somebody's life. Well, if you don't believe that happens at baptism, then that could happen at any point in somebody's life that would lead them to living the life of a Christian. Does that make sense? [00:18:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:03] Speaker B: And where they get this is from, especially Ephesians two one, you were dead in your trespasses and sins. They put a lot of weight on that word dead of like, you're totally incapable. Dead people can't respond to the gospel call, so God has to make you alive, and then you can respond to the gospel call. That's just not how Ephesians two works, because it says you were dead in your trading sins. It goes on about all of those problems that. [00:18:32] Speaker C: Happened to you, too. Well, yeah, sorry, you left. Went off your mic and came back. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:40] Speaker C: That'S not how Ephesians two works. And start from there. Everything was good. [00:18:43] Speaker B: So that's not how Ephesians two works. It starts off, you were dead in your trespass and sins uses verses one, two and three to talk about the state they were in. You and us, the Jews and the Gentiles, all were alienated from Christ and all that. Verse four. But God being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, again we were dead, made us alive together with Christ. By grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus made alive with Christ and raised up with him. Paul uses that terminology elsewhere, like Romans six. That was at your baptism, not months before you got baptized. God brought you to life and then led you on this journey toward Christianity, because now you are open to faith because you're alive. No, alive means saved, not like you're open to hearing the gospel now. And so what will saying, separating regeneration from justification, that's not what that says there. It's a misunderstanding. But if you do think somebody's dead and totally incapable of doing anything, it would require that. Well, I just think they're misrepresenting dead. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Well, the context there in Ephesians two, like you said, does denote being saved. I mean, even in verse five, by grace you have been saved. Verse eight, for by grace you have been saved. He is talking about salvation there. Like you're saying. Not just, well, the Holy Spirit started working on their lives then and that them to being saved. That's not it at all. Joe, anything to add to that before we move? [00:20:05] Speaker C: No, no, I think that's a good breakdown of it. Jack, I want you to get into, because I do want to hit the five points. We're bounced around a little bit in there. I do want to get to that. But you also had on this outline that I think is a very interesting discussion. There is a difference between calvinist and reformed. And then after this, we do want to start breaking down tulip. But before we do, can you explain the difference between, because we're seeing this pop up actually a lot more reformed Presbyterian, things like that. Reformed Baptist, is there a difference? If there is, what's the difference between Calvinists and reformed? [00:20:35] Speaker B: So I think reformed is kind of an outworking of Calvinism. When you believe Calvinism, it leads to other theological concepts. And so these reformed churches, it's very much covenantal theology that God made a covenant with the elect, these certain people that he chose to be saved. And so you act in kind with that. That's why they baptize children. I think it's a common misunderstanding in the churches of Christ that they baptize because you're born with original sin, that you're being baptized because of the sin that they believe you're born in. No, that's not why they baptize their children. They baptize their children the same reason Abraham circumcised his children. You're part of this covenant family. We're keeping you in this covenant. So the reformed is practices around that. Basically we're going to practice as a church the implications of Calvinism. And so it's not the same thing, but I think it's an outworking of it. [00:21:27] Speaker C: That's very interesting. Yeah, pedo baptism is like kind of a hot topic these days. Specifically if you're on Twitter, which probably a lot of people aren't on Twitter or X or whatever. [00:21:37] Speaker A: X, Joe, come on. [00:21:38] Speaker C: X. Sorry. Sorry, Elon. But yeah, that's kind of been making the rounds of a lot of people questioning it. And that is a very common misconception of like, they baptize so as to bring their kids and that's what saves them at baptism. I don't think they say that. My question would be, Jack, you might know this. I feel like I should know this, but I don't. They do baptize later, right? They baptize them as kids and then baptize them later when they come in no, kind of as an hour, do they? Not at all. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Well, if you weren't, then, yeah, but if you were baptized as a child, it covers. [00:22:11] Speaker A: So that is their interesting. [00:22:14] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. And for Calvinists, it's not necessarily because I remember talking with Vodhi Bakam about it, him talking about baptism and that being. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Did you just name drop that you talked? [00:22:25] Speaker C: I did, yeah. I'm big stuff. No, but he's one of the foremost, I would say, in the world on Calvinist, which makes me sound even more of a jerk in saying that. But truly the guy knows what he's talking about. They do baptize later. I don't think he believes in child baptism. So this is kind of, again, this is the difference. He talks. [00:22:45] Speaker A: I wonder if there's debate within the Calvinism community among that. [00:22:49] Speaker B: There certainly is, yeah. I mean, reform doesn't all mean they all baptize their babies, but it is that covenantal thing, the family, and. Very interesting. Yeah. A lot of other stuff, and I shouldn't talk about it a whole lot more because I'm not terribly steeped into the whole reform side of it, and I didn't prear on that end as much as I did on the Calvinism. [00:23:07] Speaker C: No, that's okay. I'm kind of asking more questions than we had on the outline here. That is a fascinating thing. But I do want to use this to kind of springboard us into what isn't interesting, because you talked about the total depravity, and this gets us into the outline of tulip, as most people know, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints. So if you ever hear five point Calvinism, this is what they talk about. Not all Calvinists are five point Calvinists. Some are four, some are two, where they'll accept some of these. But traditionally speaking, if you're going to listen to like a John Piper or somebody like that, they are five point Calvinists. They do go along the tulip lines. I think he even has a book called Tulip where he goes into these things. And the first one is total depravity, which gets us into even as a kid, again your know, our misconception surrounding child baptism, we look at it as well. You're born in sin. And that's where we get this, is they do believe in total depravity. Correct. So, will, I guess I'll let you kind of take us into this one. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So this is where I'm actually going to ask a question about the outline here, because Jack put on our outline for this total depravity section, born with a sin nature. And so here's what I'm curious about. First of all, I guess my question is, do they believe that, or do they believe that you are born in sin? My daughter, right now, Brooklyn is about to be, is about six months old. Do they believe that Brooklyn is a sinful human being right now, or do they believe that Brooklyn is born with a tendency towards sin? Because this is a discussion that I've had about this. When it comes to total depravity and this idea of original sin, I believe that human beings are born with a tendency towards sin. Like, essentially that we're not born on a straight line and we could go either way and just circumstances lead us towards sin. I do think because of the fall romans five, a lot of things we get into, we are born with a tendency towards sin. This is why you see a lot of young kids, you don't have to teach them how to misbehave. They kind of naturally seems like know how to misbehave. They lean towards that way. So, Jack, real quick, I guess, before I continue, the classic Calvinists, what do they believe? Do they believe that my six month old is in sin or just that she has a sinful nature? [00:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah, no, they would believe that she's in sin. In fact, again, to use Vodibakum, Joe's friend, Vodibakum, my budy. [00:25:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:28] Speaker B: He would use the term vipers in diapers. They come out just sinful little ones. They call them little sinners and stuff like that. [00:25:37] Speaker A: And they get that from places like psalm 51 five. [00:25:39] Speaker C: Right? [00:25:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Sin. My mother conceived me. And so you're born with Adam's sin guilt upon you, but also Adam'sin nature upon you. There's kind of the two sides of that. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:25:48] Speaker B: And so, yeah, you're born a sinner. I think what you said is a little more controversial than maybe you realize, let's get into that question. So the idea of, is every human born with the theoretical hypothetical possibility to live the perfect life. [00:26:12] Speaker A: I used to believe this, actually, I was going to say, I think I've already shown my cards. I think everybody's born with a tendency towards a sinful nature. [00:26:24] Speaker C: I used to believe that was the case, that you could theoretically live the perfect life because it opens up to a broader discussion of, like, how is it that Jesus, if he was a man like us and was tempted in every single way, but it's like, then you get into the virgin. This is where they get into the virgin birth and go, see, he didn't inherit the sin from the. His father was God, who was perfect. That's how Jesus was able to live the perfect life is he didn't have a sin nature and didn't inherit the sin of Adam. So the virgin birth for them is a very big deal. I would look at it and say, no, I do think we are born with a sin nature now. And I think the sin nature, see, I have kind of a different view on it than the fact that I think God put it in man for man to want to be like God. And I think the great story arc of the Bible is that we do get to be like Christ, and that's kind of him calling us into that in salvation. Where does Eve go wrong? [00:27:18] Speaker A: That was the original temptation, right? Correct. [00:27:20] Speaker C: That was the original temptation, the original sin. From that point on, our wanting to be like God has gotten us into every sin known to man and every man. Every person wants to. Well, you don't come to salvation until later in life, long enough for you to already test out being like God. Little kids are tyrants. They want to be their own parents. They want to be their own person. They want to be their own God. I think that is the bent that we have and that will always lead us into sin. So that's my belief personally. [00:27:46] Speaker B: All right, so that does create the questions that you brought up but didn't really answer. Were Adam and Eve born with that bent towards sin, and was Jesus born with that bent towards sin? [00:27:57] Speaker C: I think they were born with the bent toward being like God, wanting to be like God, which I think he would have eventually. I don't think it would have been God, but I think he would eventually given him that because that's what he gave us in salvation. So they were born to that bent. They cheated the system. They short circuited it. They said, we're going to do this. Yeah, circumvented we're going to do it on our own timeline instead of allowing like walking with God and allowing him to make us in the way he wants us to. I think that's the nature that he gave them. I don't think God gave him a sin nature, because obviously that would have made God the author of because to flip it around. Free will to flip that around. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Let's say the serpent never entered the scene. Would they have lived a sinless life? That they had literally no tendency to lean towards what Joe's saying? In other words, would they have found a different way to sin? Because you always hear people that say, man, I'm sure glad Adam and Eve mess it up, because I definitely would have messed it up. Well, what are they telling you right there, though? That their nature is to lean toward the thing that they're not supposed to do. So I'm curious, Jack, what your position on it is. If you disagree. [00:28:59] Speaker B: So there is an hour long who let the dogma out? Season one episode on this entire topic. So if this interests you, check that out. I would say Adam and Eve were born without that nature. That that nature is part of the fall, the fallen nature, and the virgin birth is why Jesus doesn't have it. I mean, it's the federal headship of Adam. That's why you have the first Adam, the second Adam. Because some people think this is heresy, but then you have to explain. So the term for that is pelagianism, the idea that man could be innocent. The man is born perfect, no inherited tendencies. And this gets into a lot of philosophical stuff like the tabula Raza, you're born blank slate, nature versus nurture and all of those really big debates. I think a lot of well meaning christians accidentally side with the humanists on this one, which is basically man is perfectable. Through education and training, we could get the perfect man. Well, that's not true, because one of the other things is, what do we got, 8 billion people on the planet today? So let's just say that the total population in human history was 20 billion. How many perfect people do we have? If you hold Jesus aside, we're not counting him, obviously. We know he lived a perfect life. How many people have grown to maturity and lived a perfect life? Well, none. All have sinned. All have fallen short of the glory of God. There's none righteous? No, not one. How many have gotten within ten sins of living a perfect life? [00:30:28] Speaker A: Probably zero. [00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, definitely zero. How many have gotten within 10,000 sins? If they've lived long. Like if they've lived to die it in their old age, nobody's even gotten close. So you start talking about statistically, one in 20 billion people hasn't been able to come within 1000 sins of a perfect life. What does that tell you? It's pretty astronomical. Ods that somebody would be able to. [00:30:52] Speaker C: The other is not possible. I'm not saying it is. I'm not advocating for the idea of it being possible. I do think we have a nature, a sin bent nature. [00:30:58] Speaker B: This is what I'm saying is that that's why it's not possible is because we have this nature. And people would say, well, then Jesus had it unfair differently than us. No, Jesus had the same conditions Adam did. He had the same opportunity as Adam did. Adam went the wrong way. And this is all the stuff that Romans five gets into. And this is where the Calvinists get it wrong, is they read romans 512. Therefore, just as through one man, Adam, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned, they misread that, say, oh, Adam made everybody have inherently sinned. [00:31:34] Speaker C: No, death spread to all because all. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Sinned, like everybody participated in this and perpetuates it. But then verse 19, for as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. [00:31:47] Speaker C: Well, how does that work? [00:31:48] Speaker B: How were we made sinners through Adam's disobedience? And you might say, well, we don't have a sin nature. Look at kids emulating their parents. Look at the two year old, as you mentioned, like misbehaving and all. You know, if. If their parents have an anger problem, the kid has anger. You know, I sinned in the same way Adam did. I sin in the same way. My parents just. It's something that carries through. And so I think this is something that, well, I know when we did the dogma episode really makes a lot of christians uncomfortable. This idea that we don't have the possibility to be perfect, that it's not fair. No, we're humans. We're children of Adam, but we're being made into children of Jesus. This is the whole Adam Jesus contrast. So, no, I agree with you guys that there's a bent there. You're not born guilty, you're not born totally depraved. You're not born bearing Adam's sin guilt. Because I still believe in the age of accountability thing because romans seven, a couple of chapters later, that's where Paul says, there was a time I was alive until the commandment came, right. That until I understood right and wrong, I was alive. I was okay there. I was innocent to a point. And then I stopped being innocent. And it wasn't. I never did anything wrong until that point. It was, I wasn't accountable for the wrong I did. But again, to make that point about the 20 billion people, this idea that people have would lead you to believe that somebody would go, oh, all those things I've been doing were wrong. Stealing toys from my little sister, that was wrong. Hitting my little brother on the head, that was wrong. I didn't realize that. I will never do that again. And they never do. It doesn't happen. Right? Why doesn't it happen? [00:33:28] Speaker C: Sin nature. [00:33:29] Speaker B: So again, that terminology makes people really uncomfortable. But again, the statistics, romans 519, all that plays out. The calvinist view on this is they say we are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. I would say we sin because we inherited the tendencies that our parents and everybody back to Adam has. The other thing is what makes it total depravity. This is where they say you're so. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Dead for the calvinist. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yes, for the Calvinist, they say it makes you so dead you wouldn't be able to choose God unless he chose you. Unless he, again flipped the light switch on to let you come to faith because of how sinful you are. We don't agree with that portion of it. [00:34:04] Speaker A: And that leads us into kind of the second aspect of it. Right? [00:34:07] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. [00:34:08] Speaker A: So the second point of that would be unconditional election, which is kind of, I would say, the most well known thing about Calvinism. And they're calvinist and what they believe. And that is with the doctrine of predestination. Essentially, God chooses to save or God saves whom he chooses to save, that God handpicked before time began. These are the people that are going to be saved. These are the people that are going to dwell with me forever in heaven. And so that's where, like Jack was just saying, with the total depravity point, you would have absolutely no hope unless God chose you. You're totally depraved with unconditional election. And I remember I actually read a piper book because I had known about predestination and what they believed. But I read a John Piper book called the pleasures of God and man. He spent about 40% of the book really pushing this idea of election and predestination. And one of his points in his book was God takes pleasure in who he elects. And I remember reading that and it just really hitting me, like, they truly do believe that God, from the beginning of time, chose this person is going to heaven. This one's not. This person is going to heaven. This one's not. And when Piper put it that way, of, this is the way God chose it. It just really woke me up to the fact that, wow, that's crazy to me, because as somebody who grew up in the church of Christ, of course, free will, we get to choose all those things. But let's go ahead and give it their due justice here, guys. And Joe, I guess I'll hand it to you. Where do they get this idea? Because there are quite a few verses that a simple reading of it would lead you to believe that maybe there is such a thing as predestination, or unconditional election, as they call it. [00:35:50] Speaker C: Yeah. Romans nine is their champion passage. I would say their biggest one, that in ephesians one, we'll look at romans nine first, starting in verse ten. And not only this, but there was Rebecca also, when she conceived twins by one man, our father, Isaac. For though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose, according to his choice, would stand not because of works, but because of him who calls, it was said to her, the older will serve the younger, just as is written. Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and compassion on whom I have compassion. And I'll just read the next verse. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Essentially, God's calling all the shots there. [00:36:37] Speaker C: Yeah, correct. And then he says also in verse 18, so then he has mercy on whom he desires. He hardens whom he desires. Talking about pharaoh and hardening pharaoh. So this is the first one. The second one I'll just jump to while we're thinking about it is Ephesians one. And he's just going to say in verse four through six. Well, he says in verse three, bless be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who's blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ himself, according to the kind intention of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace. Which he freely bestowed on us in the beloved. So he chose us in him before the foundation. He predestined us to adoption as sons according to the kind intention of his will, not our own. So these are their two champion passages to say, hey, there's the elect, right? There are those who he chooses. There are those who he does not choose, and specifically those who he hardens toward him. And there's two different, and I can't remember the term specifically, but there's Calvinism where they say, okay, he just chooses one. And there's a two part where it's like not only does he choose who's going to heaven, he chooses who's going to hell. [00:37:51] Speaker B: And double predestination. [00:37:53] Speaker C: Thank you. Double predestination. [00:37:54] Speaker B: So essentially the other one would be he picked a certain amount of people and said, all of these people are going to heaven, and maybe other people can. Or he picked, all these people are going to heaven and everybody else goes to hell, most of them. [00:38:12] Speaker A: How do you do one without the other? [00:38:13] Speaker B: Right? Because of the other things of you're dead without God calling you or whatever. So I think that's a pretty minority position that would say it's only single predestination. [00:38:23] Speaker C: So who wants to take this? Who wants to unravel kind of the Romans nine approach here. The Ephesians one to me is very easy in the fact that. I shouldn't say very easy, but I would say the term we use is plan, not man. Yes, he did predestined Christians. He did choose Christians. Those who have chosen Christ have been chosen from the foundation, his people. The plan that he had to make them his people was laid out from day one. The redemption story arc from the beginning of time. They looked at one another. The God had seemed to look at one another before he even created the earth, and said, okay, this is how it's going to go down. One of us is going to have to go down and do it. Jesus says, I take this one. This is Philippians two. He humbles himself, not a considering equality with God thing to be grasped, says, I'll take this. This is going to be my project. I'm going to speak them into existence, and I'm ultimately going to go down on the cross. I'm going to save them. That seems to be the story arc like the path of redemption set out from the beginning. The plan was set out that those who accept me as Lord and those who want their relationship with God will be my people and I will treat them as such. And I will take care of them, and they'll be my bride. Ephesians five. Right. [00:39:28] Speaker A: That was the predestination. [00:39:30] Speaker C: That was the predestination. [00:39:31] Speaker B: I mean, the term that just shows up over and over and over. In Ephesians one is in Christ. In him. So who is the predestined? Anybody who's in Christ. [00:39:40] Speaker C: Right. That's where the blessings are all found. And one of the blessings is the fact that if you're in Christ, then I guess you were one of the guess, because he predestined the plan, not the man. So that's what I would say to Ephesians one, Romans nine. There's very much an answer to this, but it is a little more nuanced. It can be a little more difficult. Jack, do you want to take romans nine? I can take it. You can take it? [00:40:02] Speaker A: No, I got Joe to take Ephesians one. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Yeah, pass off the hard one. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:40:07] Speaker B: I've got romans nine. Unless you want to go for it. [00:40:10] Speaker A: Man, go for it. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Okay, so, Jacob, I loved Esau. I hated. That's a quote from the Old Testament. That is not just all making that up. That goes back to Malachi one, verses two and three, and God kind of telling the people of Israel, hey, you guys got special status when he says. He's saying that to them. Not, I picked Jacob to go to heaven and Esau to go to hell. That's not what he's saying. He's saying the people of Israel have had special blessings and the Edomites, because that's immediately what he goes to start talking about is the Edomites. Verse four, though Edom says, so that country. I haven't given them special privilege. I haven't given them special opportunities the way that you guys got. And so he's talking about a corporate group of people like we just talked about there in Ephesians one. But the other thing is, if you go back to Jacob and Esau themselves, obviously Jacob was the good brother. Jacob was the chosen brother, the one through whom it was all going to happen. And Esau was not. He sold the birthright. He married outside. He married Canaanites. He had all these problems. The last time you meet Esau, he's a good guy. He's a changed guy. He's blessing his brother. Jacob thinks he's going to kill me. I'm going to put the ugly kids up front, because I don't know if Esau is going to attack us kind of thing. I'm joking about the ugly kids. It was like Leah's kids and the handmaid's kids and all that stuff. [00:41:27] Speaker A: His favorites and not favorites, literally his favorites. [00:41:30] Speaker B: He saved the back because, man, Esau might come in guns blazing, and I can't have that. And Esau comes in super cool, they reconcile. It's good. You got pretty good reason to believe that Esau was probably saved at that point. Like, he had repented, he had come around. And so if Esau is saved, if Esau is right with God, that really debunks this whole thing of, well, God just chose him to go to hell. Like, no, you see a repentant, regenerate man here. And the other thing is when you go back to the Malachi thing, that God chose all the people of Israel, didn't choose the people of Edom. Does that mean every single edomite went to hell? Probably not. In fact, we've got edomites throughout the old testament. We can go into that. Does that mean every single israelite went to heaven? We know that's not the case. Ahab probably not going to be there. There's like, some really bad people who were Israelites. And so this idea of, oh, this means predestination. This means God chose these people. He didn't just handpick Jacob goes to heaven, Esau goes to hell. He also didn't handpick the israelite. People go to heaven, the Edomites go to hell. There was a lot more involved in that. And so I think where people make this about God playing enie meanie miney mo, playing action figures and says, you're the good guy, you're the bad guy. That's really doing it. [00:42:47] Speaker A: I struggle to reconcile that idea with the passages that talk about God desiring all men to be saved, and that he's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, obviously, that's one Timothy, two second Peter, chapter three. The other thing that I would bring up about this is, and this is one of those things, I almost wish we had somebody who believed Calvinism on the podcast to kind of answer the questions that we're throwing at them. But I even look at a verse like John 316, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, not the elect. God didn't just choose to love a certain group of people. And so, again, I just always struggle when I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody who believes in these things, I always come back to verses like that again. One Timothy, two second Peter, three John 316, God loving the world. Because in essence, it seems as though free will is being taken away. And that just doesn't. It might be kind of an emotional way to answer the question, but is that a God that we truly want to serve of one who literally has already picked and chosen from the minute somebody's kid is born? Yeah, they're out of luck. Sorry. [00:43:57] Speaker B: I'll say to that. Is that a God we want to serve? And I think this is a valid critique. They make like, well, if he's God, that doesn't matter if you want to serve him or not. So, I mean, fair point on that. The other thing they would look at like a John 316 and say, well, that whosoever believes in him, whosoever are the people he picked, John ten, they flip over that, that the sheep that are mine will hear my voice. And so that's who's going to believe? That's the people. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Well, then what would the love to the world being shown? How does that work? Would be my question to that. [00:44:25] Speaker B: They would look at it as, it's God's love that saves some and God's love that condemns some. I don't think that's a strong argument, but that's, I think what they would. [00:44:32] Speaker C: Say, and they do say to the second Peter, three nine. Their answer to that is that there's two different wills of God. There's kind of an overarching. And I'm spacing on the names, ones like the decreed will, and there's another one that's kind of like, yeah, maybe that's it. There's two different wills. There's an overarching will which is, yeah, God would love everybody to be saved, but in reality, there's the will that. [00:44:53] Speaker B: He works within, that he knows they wouldn't. I don't think they would say that. So we're going to have a free so next week. Spoiler alert. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:45:03] Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to say true. What they would say to the second Peter, three nine, is he says, God is patient toward you. And so Peter was talking about the elect, that God's waiting for all of the elect to be saved. That's why he's being patient. The idea of the permissive will that God permits. Well, no, if you're hypercalvanist and it's unconditional election and irresistible grace, you don't have that choice. [00:45:27] Speaker C: But this is what Piper says is the two different wills of God. It's the same as, yeah, he wishes for nobody to sin. God's major will is for nobody to sin, while at the same time he knows, like with Judas, that has to happen. Judas has to sin in order. So did God decree Judas to sin? Well, it's the two different wills of God. That's what he gets into, is. Yeah. God wished for all to come, quote unquote. Sure. But in reality, that's just the elect. And so there's the two different sides. He wishes for nobody to sin, but in reality, he needs pharaoh to sin. He needs Judas to sin. He needs other people to sin to bring about his will. So he allows those things to take place. It's a very sketchy argument. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Well, and this is where the hypercalvanism, the no free will thing really falls apart of. Like he made them do know, he made Adam and Eve sin. He decreed they were going to do it. [00:46:13] Speaker C: So he is the author of sin, right? [00:46:15] Speaker B: He decreed the fall and everything that was going to is what they would say. [00:46:19] Speaker A: That's the logical implication of where you're going there. Right? [00:46:22] Speaker C: Let's get. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Guys, we've got three more points. [00:46:25] Speaker C: We better jump into it. [00:46:26] Speaker B: And we got a whole free will episode next week, so we should probably bury. [00:46:30] Speaker C: Yeah, let's go ahead and go to. [00:46:32] Speaker A: The third point, which, and all these tie together. It's not like these are completely separate, but the third one is limited atonement. The idea that Jesus only died for the elect, that he did not die for the whole world, and anybody who wants to can take advantage of it. He only died for those who were going to take advantage of it, so to speak. And so, Jack, I'll let you read the quote that you've got on here. I'm going to jump to several of the places where they would go in scripture to support that idea. Matthew 2028. Just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many, they would point to that and say, why didn't he say give his life as a ransom for all? Clearly there just says ransom for many. Acts 1348 is another one that they would go to that says, now, when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed again another piece of scripture that they would use to go to that idea. And then hebrews nine, verse 15. For this reason, he is the mediator of the new covenant by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. So I'm actually going to turn it back over to Joe here for this one. For essentially, how do we rebut this, this idea of atonement that Jesus only died for the elect. [00:47:57] Speaker C: Now you throw back to me, I do want to read that verse. I do want to read or not the verse. I do want to read that quote actually real fast because I think this is very interesting. This kind of opens you up. This is the RC sproul. I don't think we want to believe in a God who sends Christ to die on the cross and then crosses his fingers hoping that someone will take advantage of that atoning death. Our view of God is different. Our view is that the redemption of specific sinners was an eternal plan of God. And this plan and design was perfectly conceived and perfectly executed so that the will of God to save his people is accomplished by the atoning work of Christ. To me, I look at it and I say, do we want to believe in a God who dies for a subset of people? He comes down, Jesus is willing to leave everything to come down to die for this very specific subset of people, doesn't offer it to anyone else. So billions over time will end up dying. And he knows that they're going to be away from him. And there's a difference between him knowing and him decreeing that. That's my biggest issue with that is he's chosen that, that many billions of people will go to hell. So God doesn't love them. God doesn't care for. Like to me, where capitalism breaks down is it's not even a verse by verse. They got their verses, we got our verses. We can get into this, Jack, I'll let you kind of, I'm not rebutting the verses because to me it goes against the idea of who God is. This is a character of God question, not even a biblical as much as a character of God. He wishes for all to come to repentance. Well, no, he doesn't, not really. We know that he's just, we know that he's kind. Well, just is sending a report to hell, I suppose. Yeah, I was going to say he doesn't give them any chance at all. So he knows they're going to hell. He's putting them. Well, it says God's loving. Yeah, but not really. Not for everybody. Well, it says God's like you start going down the list of who God is and all of these things, check off the boxes. To me as to, well, not really, only to a certain subset of people is he. [00:49:48] Speaker A: Those things you always hear things like, well, God wants people to serve him who want to serve him, like the people that chose him. Did you really choose God if God was the one that chose you to choose him? Kind of a weird way to put it. But does that make sense? Yeah, God wants those who want to serve him. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:05] Speaker A: But if he knew ahead of time and hand selected and picked. Yeah, these are the ones that are going to serve me. I know we're trying to save the free willpoint, I get it. But to me it really does make us into robots of like, yeah, we're robots. It was decided ahead of time that we were going to serve God and these other people were not. Yeah, I typically do try to boil a lot of arguments down to common sense, and I don't want to do this with Calvinism because we did start the episode by saying it's not as simple as it seems. It is one of those things that just does kind of logically break down. [00:50:35] Speaker C: I feel like, literally, what is the purpose of planet Earth? If you're already going to have these people and nobody has to live life to get there and you're going to have to save them, why didn't you just make more angels or make humans that already went to heaven with you? If there is no free will down here, again, we'll save that to discussion. But if there's none of this, if. [00:50:51] Speaker A: It'S not planet Earth choosing to serve. [00:50:53] Speaker C: You, and if it's not people choosing to serve you, why did you not make more servants for heaven and just bypass this whole thing? You had Jesus come down to die for that. Why you could have just had him not die and just made them perfect and put them in heaven. To me, it makes Earth worthless if there's no possibility of that. [00:51:09] Speaker B: The other thing is the atheists criticize God for creating hell. Well, why would you create hell? Why would you create man? So they go to hell. Fair challenge. Except for the fact that he came and gave himself to rescue us, to offer us the life raft out of hell, went through everything he did. If he literally created the majority of humans who ever lived to be eternal firewood, that is pretty messed up. And what they do to that is they go to romans nine and they quote the well, who are you, o man, to answer back to God? I'm not answering back to God. I'm answering back to your version of God. I mean, it's a very nice rhetorical game to play there. That God, yeah, he has a will, he has a way. He wants things to work out. But this idea, if he created somebody and gave them a 0.0.0% chance of being saved, that they are automatically like, before they are even born, he stamps them on the head of marked for hell. Man, that's pretty tough to swallow. Yeah. The sproul quote is, I don't think we want to believe in a God who sends Christ to die on the cross and then crosses his fingers hoping that someone will take advantage. I do want to believe in a God who says, you know what, even if they don't choose me, I would be willing to do this for them. [00:52:17] Speaker C: Right. That's a loving, that's, that's again, the character of God in our way. I think the character of God stands firm in their way. You really start to doubt it. So you look at these verses and then we're going to move on to irresistible grace. But what do we say to verses like Hebrews 915? [00:52:33] Speaker B: Which, I mean, let's give them their credit here. As many as were appointed to salvation. That's pretty hard to, as we said at the start, this is not a simple, oh, this is so stupid. I can't believe people believe it. It's hard, right? [00:52:48] Speaker A: Do you guys see a difference between, and this is the way that I've always kind of thought about it in my brain, a difference between God chose those who are going to inherit salvation as opposed to God knows those who are going to accept salvation. I don't know if that's a distinction that is even worth bringing up here, but in my brain that's kind of been always the way that I've distinguished it is I don't think God, like you said, any mini mighty mo hand shows. This person, yes. This person no. This person yes. This person, no. But with him being omniscient, he does know and I don't know if that would tie into this. What are your thoughts on that? [00:53:25] Speaker B: That is one of the kind of alternates, I think Arminius actually believe kind of like that. And the Calvinists will almost talk like this sometimes of like, well, how did he pick the elect? Well, he knew who he was going to pick and so he made them the elect. To me, that's the same thing as what we believe, just adding a step onto it where we say, well, it's going to be anybody who's in Christ is going to be saved. And so he looks and he's like, well, who's going to be in Christ? Them. That's the ones I'm picking. Then you don't need to do that. [00:53:50] Speaker C: That's like circular reasoning working backwards. Yeah. So looking at these verses, I would say, so let's work our way backwards here because I have Hebrews nine pulled up right here. So he talks about, since death has taken place for the redemption transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. To me, I would say, and this is kind of the Armenian, I think he calls everyone as those who have chosen the call. And so, yeah, to those who he has called, if you accept and listen to the call going to John ten as you brought up, hearing his voice and going, yes, I'm following that. I think the voice goes out. You don't think the wolves hear the voice of the shepherd as well? There's only those that know it. And he said, well, those that know it are those that are given to by God. And I would say, no, those that know it are those that accept. I need the shepherd. I need the good shepherd. Well, that means you were called in that way. So the voice goes out to all but those who accept it are those who were called by him. Does that make sense? You're looking at me as pretty skeptical. He's calling all men, but only those who answer the call would be called the called, if that makes sense. [00:55:05] Speaker B: Well, I think it goes back to the holy spirit convicts the world of sin thing to righteousness into judgment. That some of them are going to go, oh, I'm a sinner. I need to repent and trust in Christ. And others are going to go, I don't care that it's wrong. You can't make me. I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And so maybe along those same lines that might go with what you're saying. [00:55:26] Speaker C: I'm saying like, okay, let's say you have a football team, a coach, and there's a ton of people on the field, and he shouts out to everybody. And there are those that listen to the coach and they go, okay, that's my coach. And I'm going toward him and he goes, okay, you guys are the ones I called. Yeah, technically he called everybody to come over to him, but those that came over to him are those that he would say, I called you. Does that make sense? [00:55:49] Speaker B: No, that's a little pathetic, honestly. Oh, no, you guys that didn't listen to me. I wasn't calling you anyway. [00:55:54] Speaker C: No, he said, I am calling everybody. If you listen and you come, that's like, as they get closer. He says, I did call you. I also called those other people. They blew me off. This is the point of is it? And this gets us into the next one. Irresistible grace. Is it resistible or is it irresistible? I would say it is resistible. I do think he puts out the call to everybody. I think that's the whole point of salvation. I think the Holy Spirit tries to convict everybody concerning sin and judgment, but only those who allow themselves to be. And this is the difference between us and Calvin. And they say, you don't allow yourself to be nothing. He just does it for you. I would say we do allow ourselves to listen to his voice and to come to him. And there are those who resist it. Those who don't resist it are the called. Those who do resist it are not the called. Even though he died for everybody, everybody has that opportunity. The Holy Spirit is convicting the world. I would say everybody, everybody outside of Christ, convicting the world concerning sin and judgment. They're all getting convicted the same. Some people are resisting and some people are not. This gets us into romans one. There are those that absolutely hear, and it's evident. It's made evidence. There's like five, six times in there. It's made evident to them, and they choose to turn away. They choose to follow their own God, idolatry, LGBTQ. It goes into all sorts of other things. Like, that's those who listened to the call and said, no, I'm not going to do it, and went to the other way. Well, we're not going to call them the called then, are we? I don't know. How would you answer, okay, if I'm way off on this, how would you answer hebrews nine? Because your answer is kind of like, yeah, that's difficult language. Like, we have to have an answer. Otherwise, would that not make the Calvinists. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:32] Speaker C: How would we answer this? Don't get quiet on me now. [00:57:39] Speaker B: No, I think it makes sense. Yeah. I mean, your phrasing is a little strange on it. I guess that goes back to the. It's a different way of saying the same thing as what we said about Ephesians. One of, like, that's how you know who the predestined are, is afterward, same. [00:57:58] Speaker A: Thing for Matthew 2028. Give his life a ransom for many. He was willing to give his life a ransom for everybody if they would have chosen. But since only many are the ones that chose it, he just goes ahead and says, I'm going to give my life a ransom for many. That, to me, is tying into directly what you're saying, it doesn't look like we have a rebuttal for Joe's thing there. [00:58:18] Speaker B: So I'm going to let that stand. [00:58:20] Speaker A: To the irresistible grace point because where I've always wanted to jump to whenever this irresistible grace, because irresistible grace is the idea that essentially once God chooses you, there's nothing you could do to say, I'm not going to serve God. It is irresistible grace has been bestowed upon you. It is irresistible. What do they do with the parable of the great supper where Jesus is using this story of he invites all these people and they say, yeah, sure, but first let me do this. And then first let me do this. And first let me do this. He says, all right, fine, I'll go choose to, or I'll also open up the invitation to these people who do choose to decide to come to the feast. Does that make sense? So in other words, the people rejected the invitation. It was there. They chose not to accept the invitation. They had more important things to do. By definition, does that not make the quote unquote grace resistible? What would you guys say to that? [00:59:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that. And I mean, just really, as I said with the Jacob and Esau thing, not all the Israelites were saved. They were the chosen people. They were all chosen. I mean, the whole first generation of them all maybe went to hell. Like, a lot of them weren't saved because they didn't obey. They wandered in the wilderness until they died kind of thing. And so they were hand picked by God. I mean, they saw him part the Red Sea and all that stuff and they still resisted. And so I just don't get this idea that, oh, if he picks you, you can't say no. Well, a bunch of them did. And like you said, the parable, that's the same thing. Israel has been called. You didn't want it. Okay, I'll go to the gentiles. [01:00:04] Speaker A: Right? [01:00:05] Speaker C: To me, that's a slam dunk. That's why I don't want to spend a ton of time on. This is like the whole point of romans 910 eleven is guys, you kind of fumble this one. I did call you. You rejected the christ. I'm grafting in the gentiles into this tree. Right? To me, that's not irresistible. I don't know. So that is their champion passage. But I look at that saying, this is exactly it, as God did call them. They did say, no, I don't want this. And he said, okay, we're going to include the gentiles into this plan for people who actually do want this. I don't know. I know we have to move on but I'm a little unsure on going back to the last one of where we're at. We didn't even cover, well, we didn't even cover the acts 1348 of those. [01:00:48] Speaker B: Salvation. [01:00:51] Speaker C: Which people are going to listen and go whoa whoa, whoa whoa. You can't just skip the verses that are difficult. So irresistible grace to me, I think we broke that down. It does not really make sense. It's one of those that and I don't even think there are Calvinists that like I said, not everybody's five point calvinist. This is one that I think some people disagree with even in their own circles and such. So ears usable grace I think is just again, like we said, we want to treat with respect, but kind of dumb in that respect. But going back to this, fellas, before we get into the last one, because I do really want to know what do you make of as many as have been appointed to eternal life? Gentiles heard this. Begin rejoicing, right? Glorifying the word of the Lord. As many as have been appointed to eternal life believe the word of Lord is being spread throughout or through the whole region. So this is again, Paul going out on his first missionary journey. I think it starts in 13. Yeah, starts in 13. So this is just on his first missionary journey. So what do we make of that, of those who have been appointed to eternal life? [01:01:51] Speaker B: All right, I'm going to admit the acts 1348 one is probably the single most challenging one just because of the wording of it. I would say, first of all, there's the biblical interpretation principle of, you kind of always interpret the complex in light of the simple rather than the simple in light of the complex. And I think the simple really indicates that everybody has the opportunity to be saved. John 316, things like that. Number two, there is a lot of wrangling over the greek, not only the word, but the tense of the word. As far as appointed to eternal life in acts 1348, that it wasn't like a long past tense thing of like, oh, they were appointed. That's something that was over with and done, but kind of like in that moment they were being appointed. And so some would say that was by the preaching of the gospel, determined who was appointed to eternal life. And it was kind of, again, the ones that responded to it were the ones that were appointed. The third thing is this comes right on the heels of verses 45 and 46, is where Paul and Barnabas kind of throw their hands up with the Jews and be like, look, you guys got first crack at it. You didn't want it, so we're going to the Gentiles. But interestingly, they say since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life. Well, how were they unworthy of eternal life? By hearing the word and not accepting it. [01:03:12] Speaker A: By their actions. [01:03:13] Speaker B: Right. By their response to the gospel. Well, what makes somebody appointed to eternal life their response to the gospel would be one of the arguments of that. I think those are fine. I don't love any of those three things. Like I said, this is one of the weaker ones that's out there. I still think it holds up just because of when you start playing scripture wars on this. I think we've got the big guns. We've got the ones that the OverWHElming majority of evidence points one direction. But yeah, this is a challenging one. And if you say it's not, I think we don't have to oversell our case here. [01:03:49] Speaker C: There's the same as called. I can use my football illustration, but it is difficult to say in the John Ten and such. This one, as you said, rightfully said, this poses a little bit of a challenge. I do think this is why I go back to what I said. I lean on the nature of God and I lean on logic a lot more in this, and that sounds terrible, but woody, you're not going to lean on scripture. We can go back and forth on scripture, but by and large, let's zoom out, as you said. LEt's look at the simple, not the complex. LEt's look at the simple and see what we know of God. Fellas, let's get into the last one here, though, because I think this is running long, perseverance of the saints. And it's not the same as once saved, always saved, per se. But I do think those things kind of run together in a lot of ways. These get mixed, if that makes sense, and we hear this kind of in Baptist circles and such, once saved, always saved. Once you have accepted the lord in whatever means, like the baptist sometimes will do sinners prayer or whatevEr. But for calvinists, once you've accepted God, you're in, you're good, you're not going to lose it. Now, THEY BUILD in a very interesting caveat, and I think it's very convenient for those that have accepted God and those that stay faithful Must be the elect. Those are the saints, right. The person who to the saints. Therefore, if you made it all the way now, then you go, well, what happens if somebody falls away. It's not that somebody falls Away. They JUSt never really were saved in the. [01:05:09] Speaker A: They were never saved anyway, right? [01:05:11] Speaker C: They never really were saved. Like, they weren't a saint, they weren't one of the elect, because if they were the elect, they would have stayed. They would stay there. So it's like, okay, so for the five years where they did seem to be showing good fruit, did seem to have it, what then? What would you say? Well, they weren't the elect during those five years, I suppose, because they couldn't have been. If they left after five years, then the election never took place to begin with. Am I botching? [01:05:33] Speaker B: I point to a guy like Josh Harris, big I kiss dating goodbye guy, huge name in the calvinist world, denominational world. And I mean, preacher, book writer, I mean, just a megachurch pastor, celebrity kind of guy that they had on all their conferences. Well, now he walked away, left his wife for another woman, and he's not a Christ and he doesn't even believe in God anymore. And they look back and they're like, well, I guess he wasn't a Christian the whole time. Like, well, then why did you have him on your stages? Why did you let him run one of your churches? [01:06:01] Speaker A: A biblical example of that. What about Demas? Demas is literally called a fellow laborer by Paul, and then he forsook and loved this present world. The Calvinist is forced to say Demas even when he was laboring with Paul and was a fellow worker, somebody who was shouted out multiple times by the apostle Paul. Yeah, he wasn't really a christian. He wasn't really saved. He wasn't really a saint. That completely falls apart there. [01:06:23] Speaker B: Well, the biggest issue with this is how do you have any confidence at all? I read John Piper on that, where somebody asked him and he basically said, well, I'll know if on my deathbed I've stayed faithful. So you can't know, oh, well, ten years from now, I'm going to fall away. We know where your status is. We can check right now and be like, I'm saved. And if I do certain things, I'm not going to be saved. I can be confident that I can lose my salvation. I can be confident that I have it if it's kind of, well, I don't know that I have it until I get to the end and didn't lose it. There's no confidence. [01:06:54] Speaker A: There's no assurance just to illuminate the difference between. Once again, Joe pointed out once, they've always saved those who believe that essentially believe once you make the decision to become a Christian, there's nothing you could do know basically ruin that. Like, you can basically live however you want and you're still going to be saved. The Calvinists, for the perseverance of the saints, would say not necessarily that, just so the true measuring stick of somebody who is a faithful Christian is one who stays faithful all the way to the end. And like you're saying, you're not going to know that until your deathbed is, until you're dying, right? Until, you know, if you stayed faithful. And so there are a couple of verses that they would point to as well. It's again, giveth their due justice. And I'll read Philippians one, verse six. Joe, if you want to get first, John two, verse 19, Philippians one six starts in the middle of the sentence, so I'll go back to verse three. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine, making requests for you all with joy for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing that he has begun a good work in, you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. So kind of the idea that the good work you're doing now will be completed when you have fully persevered as a saint, right? When your time is up. Joe? [01:08:08] Speaker C: Yeah, we got one. John 219. They went out from us, but they were not really of us. For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. And then he says, verse 20, but you all have anointing from the holy one. And you all know. So the idea here, once again, they would look at that and say, see, they never really were of us. I think we have to look at the context of first John of what's being talked about, him talking about those that were in it, the gnostics that were in the church kind of doing their own thing. And he's saying they never really were part of us, that yes, they were in the church, but they never really were part of us because they were gnostic in their teaching, and they were just trying to confuse those that actually were in the truth. That's way different than somebody who is standing next to us believing every last thing we believed, the good works, everything else, like for years on end, versus somebody who's gnostic from the very beginning, kind of. Yeah, they were in the church, but they were a faction of the church that really was never a part to me, that seems to be the context spoken of in first John two there, and not people who were like, tight, tight. We believed everything you believed, and then we just decided to stop believing. What I would love to know is, from a parenting perspective, kind of how this affects their role of parenting, because as you were talking, Jack, about Josh Harris, another one that comes to mind is Abraham Piper, John Piper's, I think, oldest son or one of his sons in there. And he is now a devout atheist. And on TikTok is trying to lure people away from the faith. And I think Josh Harris is doing the same. He's got his own, or at least he did for a time, construction course. Yeah. Deconstruction course you could pay for. I think there would be a special place in hell for people like that millstone hung around the neck. But, yeah, you have Abraham Piper. Well, man, that would be terrifying as a parent to go, is he elect? I just don't know. I don't know if God's going to choose my kids. I really hope he chooses my kids. I have no kneeling over whether he choose my kids. I will parent appropriately. [01:10:07] Speaker A: Have to try to parent appropriately. [01:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:09] Speaker A: I mean, if God's already chosen, God. [01:10:10] Speaker C: Either chooses them or doesn't. [01:10:11] Speaker A: They'll figure it out. Yeah. [01:10:12] Speaker C: Right. That's chosen or not. And, okay, what if they are? With perseverance to the saints, how do I know they're going to remain elect for the rest of their life? I will never feel good, I'll never sleep a night that my kids are actually going to choose the faith, because they may not be the Elect. I mean, they may not persevere. Right? [01:10:30] Speaker B: So they're thinking they always just go back to God's sovereignty. Well, then, if that's God's choice, that's for the best. I think I would know better that I want my kids to be saved, but God knows better than me, which is just kind of as everything we said just doesn't really make sense. Doesn't add up. I would say two things about the perseverance of the saints. Number one, this of the five is by far the most easily attacked. You can just tear it to pieces throughout the New Testament. I mean, Galatians, who bewitched you, and he says, you have fallen from grace. I like to ask, why does the Book of Hebrews exist if you can't lose your faith? The whole book is like, you can't go back to Judaism, or you're trampling Jesus underfoot. So don't do it. Don't do it. Well, if they're not going to do it, then you don't need to write that book. Like, if it's not possible for them to lose their faith, if they were going to do it, there's nothing he could have done to stop them because weren't Christians in the first place, then you're just saying the Book of Hebrews was written to non Christians. Come on. And so, number one, it's really easy to debunk. Number two, if you debunk one of these five pillars, the rest of them fall apart really easily, because if somebody was predestined and the grace was irresistible and they were as unconditional election, all these things that we just went through, and yet they can lose their faith in the end. You just unraveled all the petals fell off of it. And so I really think if you're going to Bible study this with somebody, argue it with somebody, whatever it may be, go after this one. It is so abundantly clear that throughout the New Testament, throughout our own personal experiences, people have the faith and lose it. [01:12:06] Speaker C: And they lost it due to what their choices. And if you can lose it due to your choices, what does that seem to indicate? You can gain it due to your choices. Choices do matter, but this is why it's such a big deal for them. You go, how could they believe this? They have to. They have to. Because if you believe that it's a call from God. Did God make a mistake? Well, clearly they're not going to say God made a mistake, so they have to believe in the perseverance of the saints. Otherwise they'd say, well, you can, through your choices, lose it. Okay. That would indicate choice does matter, which is going to get us into our next episode on free will. I want to ask one last question because that's, man, I'm telling you, next week is going to be fantastic in my opinion. I'm very excited. We did a lot more studying, actually. I would say for the free will side of it, just because that's where so many things break down, so many questions. I don't even know that we're all agreed on it. It's going to be a very good one. I want to ask this, though, fellas, any other thoughts before I want to ask a question just to kind of figure out where we stand. Okay. [01:13:01] Speaker A: A lot of people, Joe, asking all the questions and making us do the answering. Joe, you're going to answer your question. [01:13:07] Speaker C: You asked me about Hebrews nine and everybody was like, oh, I don't know. So you threw that one on me. The hardest question, and I'll answer this one as well. But I am curious, your guys'thoughts, is this salvational? Let's say you have a guy that comes from, he's a Baptist, right. And he comes with this calvinist theology. He does come to the truth. He is baptized, appropriately for the right reasons, right remission of sins, all this. He comes into the body, into the church, but he still believes in this version of God. He still believes in the calvinistic doctrines. Clearly, I think he's wrong. However, is it salvational? If he were to die, is that considered a sin? [01:13:49] Speaker A: That's a tough one. [01:13:51] Speaker C: Jack, you're muted. [01:13:54] Speaker A: I'll go ahead and let Jack get his audio figured out. Oh, man. I don't want to stick my foot in my mouth or say anything that is going to get me in any kind of trouble or anything like that. I'm just going to speak my mind and speak where I'm coming from here. I am always going to err on the side of not calling something necessarily a salvation issue. Don't get me wrong, there are things that are. If you believe that there are multiple gods, yeah, that's a salvation issue. If you believe that Jesus did not come in the flesh, yeah, that's a bit of a salvation issue. If you believe that you can say a sinner's prayer and that saved you. Yeah, sorry, that's a salvation issue. This one I understand why people would lean towards. Yes, it is a salvation issue. To me, you look at the things that you see in scripture about salvation. You already brought up in this hypothetical situation. The guy was baptized for the remission of his sins. The guy believes in one God, believes that Jesus came in the flesh, believes that Jesus died for him. And all the steps, all those don't. I would not feel comfortable, for instance, disfellowshipping that person, I guess, is the way I'll answer that question. If it came to my attention as an elder that this person believed these things, was not trying to teach it, was not trying to spread it to other people. This was just his belief in unconditional election, limited atonement, whatever. I would like to study with him. I would like to sit down with him and, hey, share with me how you came to these conclusions. This is what I think biblically. This is why I think you're dead wrong. I, as the elder in that situation, would not be pressing the disfellowship button, I guess, if that makes sense. So that might be a strange way to answer it. As saying, no, I don't think it's a salvation issue, but I would not be rushing to disfellowship, I guess, in that situation. Jack, we still have audio from Jack. So Joe, you jump into it. [01:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Perfectly agree with you. I don't think it is salvational. Know, I do think if you're starting to push this in churches and you're really teaching this and whatnot, I think that is stumbling block to other people. And so, yeah, I would say that's salvational. I think he needs to come to a fuller knowledge of God, which is what Paul prays for. With all of, basically every prayer that he prays throughout the New Testament is like that they might come to a better understanding of God, the eyes of their heart might be enlightened, things like that. And that's what we would pray for, for him. And I think we would study with him to come to that. Do I think it's salvational? No. I do think know if you've followed the plan of salvation, if you have put Christ on a baptism, I do think you are saved. But this is something that I would say a kink that needs to be worked out, so to speak. So, Jack, third time's a charm. [01:16:39] Speaker B: How about now? [01:16:40] Speaker A: There we go. [01:16:41] Speaker B: All right. Okay. All right. Well, that's it for this week's. Think deeper. [01:16:46] Speaker A: This guy. [01:16:46] Speaker B: No, I hate this question because I've written on this before. I think God grades on a curve. I think there's some people who should know better, some sweet granny Smith who comes to the faith at 78 years old and has some vestiges of wrong beliefs about original sin or whatever else, is not the same person as the person who studies this, gets up there and preaches that, hey, God doesn't love you and didn't die for you. They might believe the same thing, but they're not the same person. And so I don't know. I agree with what you guys had to say, though. And so I just hate this question. [01:17:24] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a tough question. I threw this one on, but here's where I want to end. We got a great one coming up next week, as I said. So stay tuned for that. The reason this is important, I don't think most of our listeners are Calvinists. I would figure probably 98, 99, maybe 100% of our listeners are not Calvinists. So we didn't convince anybody here. We want to speak to the other side of the pendulum very briefly before we wrap up. Pendulum swings happen all the time. And I'm sorry to say but the church, Christ is notorious for this. We avoid the verses that, that we want to avoid. Ephesians two eight, we've been saved by grace, right? By grace, you have been saved. We avoid verses like that and we swing the other pendulum. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But let's go to James. Let's look at all the works. We can do the same thing here. We can look at it and say, okay, Calvinists are coming from a place where they believe we don't have any good. Totally depraved. Right. There is an aspect of that that's very true. We are depraved sinners. We need to recognize that and recognize our own goodness does not get us close to God. And I do think I want to speak to this before we wrap up. I think there's a lot of people in the church that take that 70 30, 80 20 approach. God, let me go 80% of the way. You make up the rest. Whatever I don't do, I'll do as many good deeds as possible. Maybe they don't say this specifically or explicitly, but I think they have this belief I'm going to be as good as I can be. And where I fall short, God will carry me the rest of the way. [01:18:47] Speaker A: That is the difference. [01:18:48] Speaker C: Essentially, he does not make up the difference. You have nothing to bring. All your good deeds are as filthy rags as Isaiah says. You bring nothing to him. So sanctification is the process of being made like Christ. Right? It's the process of, after we've been justified at baptism, of him really turning our desires into his desires. That's a very needed part of this discussion. But the way we look at it is our works kind of bring us closer to God. No, they don't. They really, really don't. We have been saved and we've been offered a gift that has nothing to do with us. This is how I can read Ephesians two eight and go, absolutely. Of course, by grace, we have been saved. I didn't do anything. He gave me a gift. I reached out and took it. That doesn't mean that I earned the gift or anything else like that. We just need to be very careful in the church of Christ to not, and I'm speaking maybe to the older generations. There's a lot of people that did not know what grace was until their twenty s, thirty s, forty years old. That is pathetic. All we wanted to do is hellfire brimstone and talk about how much we needed to work. This is in a response to Calvinism going, whoa, we're not calvinistic. No. But maybe you are a Pelagian, right? Maybe you are somebody who really does think you can get it right on your own. Please don't. Please do not push that. And please teach Grace, the doctrine of grace. We have to have that. It's not calvinistic. To teach that, we need grace. So that's just my soapbox here. I was recently talking with two people who had left the faith. They were in their fifty s, two women who left the faith and they're like, it's weird that to hear you talk about grace because we grew up in the church of Christ and I was literally 40, she said 46 years old before I knew what Grace was. [01:20:23] Speaker B: Church. [01:20:24] Speaker C: We got to do better. I'm just going to say we have to do better. Do not swing the pendulum back to ultra works because we don't want to be Calvinists. No, we don't. We want to be biblical. We want to be christians who teach the entire understanding of scripture. And that includes grace. So I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry fellas. [01:20:40] Speaker A: That is the perfect way to wrap. I hate to jump in here. The only thing I was going to add to that is if you do happen to be listening to this and do, I guess side with maybe a more calvinist perspective on things, we would like to hear your, I guess, rebuttals to what we've said. If you are somebody who believes these things kind of comment, let us know. Hey, here's the rebuttal to what you guys said on XYZ issue. Here's why I believe in XYZ. This is hopefully the place for discussion. We're going to have another segment for those who subscribe to focus, plus the deep end segment. That will be a very interesting one. If we can get maybe some rebuttals to the things that we've said that hopefully we will again turn scripture back on and say, well, this is why that might be wrong. But again, I just want to, just want to say, let us know. And maybe you don't believe, maybe you've heard how a Calvinist might answer something that we brought up. We want to know, we want to have these discussions, we want to bring these things up. We don't want to act like it is. Again, as we started the episode with that, it's just super simple because it's not. But Joe, that was a really great way to wrap. Jack, anything else to add before we wrap this week? [01:21:43] Speaker B: Not for me. [01:21:45] Speaker A: All right, we will stop right there then. Got another great episode. Kind of adjacent. Not again, not directly calvinist, but it's going to tie into a lot of what we talked about this week coming next week. But for now, we'll wrap right there. This has been the next episode of the Think Deeper podcast. Thank you guys so much for joining. We'll talk to you next week.